Shocking Training Methods In Malaysian Silat [Archive]

sulaiman

04-Jul-2006, 05:18 PM

hi all,

Thanks for posting the link for this clip - I had heard of the existence of this film but had not had the opportunity to see it .
The video is of the well known ( at least outside of this forum ) Malaysian silat Lincah , and the Guru is Guru Omar Din , very famous for precisely these sort of feats.
The title of the link is misleading though -these are not training methods , at least not in the sense that they are part of the standard syllabus.
They are TESTS , and as such are meant to be above and beyond the normal , rational sphere - they are to
1) test the trust and obedience the murid has in his guru
2) to test the fruits of the murids tenaga dalam training.

Gayong has some very similar methods - eg the mandi minyak ( boiling oil bath ) Machette chopping, jumping through glass etc.

Other interesting Gayong feats include breaking huge rocks on peoples heads, running them over with cars ( and in 1 case a train ) etc.

The purpose is to weed out those who are not fit to proceed with the higher level of Batin training once the tenaga dalam is completed.
For the batin training the student must have 100 % absolute confidence and trust of his master , and the master must have 100 % confidence and trust in his murid.

To many it seems shocking or extreme , but Malay silat functions in these realms - its training is designed to push us beyond our limited mental picture of what and who we are and to rewaken our full potential as human beings - as Gods deputies on Earth.

The jumping off buildings is irrelevant , a side show designed for our illusory senses , the obedience is what is important.
That and respect, something I am surprised to see lacking in the posts that commented on this film.

It may not be Your silat, but do not say it is not silat -

As for the Guru Omar din , he walked with a cane because as a child he develped polio, something that makes his development and expansion of Silat lincah even more incredible.

Respect and peace to all our Silat brothers and sisters

sulaiman

Orang Jawa

04-Jul-2006, 07:04 PM

hi all,

It may not be Your silat, but do not say it is not silat -

As for the Guru Omar din , he walked with a cane because as a child he develped polio, something that makes his development and expansion of Silat lincah even more incredible.
Respect and peace to all our Silat brothers and sisters
sulaiman

Salam,
I agree to disagree Sulaiman :)
It is true is not my silat but I can't digest what I've seen is a silat. What is silat anyway? Jumping form three story building is silat? My jump instructor is not study silat but he can do the PLF (parachute landing fall) smoothly. And this so called silat student have a very poor landing. I was wondering how many of them have inflected self injury.
As far as Guru Omar din. Be that as may, does he ever did the jump?
I'm a firm believer that if you can't do it yourself, do not ask students or others to do it. Live by example say to speak.
Its about credibility. If a jump instructor in airborne school never jump from the airplane or does not have a jump wing...are you willing to follow his instruction?
If an AIT (advance Infantry training) instructor does not have the CIB (combat infantry badge), what kind credibility he has?
So in general schemes of things, if some one try to tell you how to fight with a knife and he personally never have been in fight that involve knife or life and death situation. His teaching may be makes sense, the facts his technique is not proven in fights or battles, it makes a doubt to some people who have seen the elephant.
As usual, I can be wrong too!
No hard feeling bro,:)
Tristan

Rebo Paing

05-Jul-2006, 10:40 AM

Aren't people so varied in this world? Never a dull moment! :D

I initially resisted reacting to this thread because it has been my experience that generally, practices that fall outside a persons sphere of experience (especially cultural practice) is portrayed in a derogatory manner. This is true in ALL cultures ... the Javanese too are famous for their exclusion of things not Javanese ... it happened sometimes in my own family.

Once we understand the context (thank-you Mas Suleiman) it is easier to observe impartially and to accept without prejudice that peoples around the world (in fact all of us one from another) have different adat ... different ways. That does not make the ways better or worse ... just different, and we can as individuals choose to incorporate or reject ... without prejudice.

From a personal perspective now, I would not follow a person who required of me a blind acceptance and obedience, and nor would I expect it of others - but that is just my way :) .

Also concur Mas Tristan ... have to at least have direct experience to teach something.

Salam

sulaiman

06-Jul-2006, 04:43 PM

As far as Guru Omar din. Be that as may, does he ever did the jump?
I'm a firm believer that if you can't do it yourself, do not ask students or others to do it. Live by example say to speak.

Salaams Mas tristan,

No hard feelings taken - we are all here because we love to discuss are we not !

regarding Guru omar din , yes he has jumped , and from higher , I heard from 5 or 6 storey building, also he was buried alive for 4 days , set on fire etc - why ?

well one reason is to show that body is a body and we do not know what it or its limits are.

another is to show that knives do not cut and fire does not burn except by permission of their lord - everything is in obedience , just to greater or lesser degree of consciousness.

it is to build faith and confidence, not to become a big or famous or rich one

Also salaams to Mas kembang alas,

I too would not follow a guide who demanded blind obediance.
I am obedient to my teacher because I love him , trust him, and 100 per cent accept that on the path of silat and many other things he knows infinitely more than me, and that the best way to learn from him is to not resist or put in my own opinions , but to follow him and do what he says - without hesitation.
That is the only way he will be able to mould me , and in this way we need to be moulded by someone as it is impossible to mould yourself.
I have a lot to learn , and I honestly dont know if i will ever really get into Bob dylan, but I am trying my best to follow my master.

Still I have to agree those landings were absolutely awfull, sent a shiver through my spine :D

salaam silat

Kiai Carita

06-Jul-2006, 05:27 PM

...
Also salaams to Mas kembang alas,

I too would not follow a guide who demanded blind obediance.
I am obedient to my teacher because I love him , trust him, and 100 per cent accept that on the path of silat and many other things he knows infinitely more than me, and that the best way to learn from him is to not resist or put in my own opinions , but to follow him and do what he says - without hesitation.
That is the only way he will be able to mould me , and in this way we need to be moulded by someone as it is impossible to mould yourself. ....
salaam silat

Salaam silat everyone,

I don't think that teachers actually demand blind obediance. However when I was with my teacher he would ask me not to ask too many questions and just get on with the moves! In Cikalong style I understand that you are taught no application until late too.

The thing is in silat alot is body-knowledge / muscle memory and all the intellectualizing you can do can't help. Obediance is required but not blind. I think this is the tradition of teacher-student relationships in Indonesia for the student to obey and the teacher to patronise.

Think about Bima and Dorna in the Jawa wayang story Dewa Ruci. Intending to kill Bima, Dorna sends him to find the elixir of life. By obeying this Bima finds his Greater Self. So obediance is important in learning silat.

Also if you want to get to the stage of Gerak Nurani, you must be able to obey your inner Self too.

Warm salaams to all,
Bram.

Orang Jawa

07-Jul-2006, 08:20 PM

Sulaiman said:
regarding Guru omar din , yes he has jumped , and from higher , I heard from 5 or 6 storey building, also he was buried alive for 4 days , set on fire etc - why ?
******************
With all do respect Sulaiman, I would believe the stories when I see it. Too many stories like this floating around. None can be justified. Any video/picture? News paper print telling this historic event?This is a great stuff! If only true...My Uncle probably smiling to hear this:) I believe a pig can fly before I believe Guru Oman stories. No one can survive being burried alive without oxcygen for four days....NO ONE!
Sorry, IMHO this is a BS stories, with all do respect my friend.
Tristan

Rebo Paing

08-Jul-2006, 06:54 AM

Orang Jawa

08-Jul-2006, 05:46 PM

I probably er on the side of the sceptics, however there is I think (!) documented evidence of Indian Yogi's going into a self induced state of suspended animation who have survived for many days buried etc.

I think that the body (and the spirit!) is capable of a lot more than 'modern science' credits it of being capable of. The role of science is to try to provide an explanation ... sometimes it can't, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the thing that it can't explain is deficient ... it could mean that the science is deficient.

I believe that my stance is called being a devil's advocate :confused: ?

Salam

Salam Mas Krisno,
I agree with you, sciece don't have all the answer, but many found the logic behind the stunt that many people claimed that they have possesed the Godly power :) Not a long time ago, I watched a program in Discovery Channel (see what happen when you are over 50?) It was a program research conducted by a Professor of India University. To make a long story short, they discover that the Yogi that claimed that he can elevated themself above ground, exposed! the Yogi have stick under him, still it takes a skills to balance the body, though, but not flying say to speak :) Another one is how the yogi person put the sharp hook with chains thrusted deep behind his back and he pulled a car with that...Exposed! He found a student volunteer that able to do that without any prior training. It was about where you thrusted the hook, still you need a knowledge of human body to do that. I was impressed with a yogi who travelled a long distance by rolling on the ground...Just don't understand why anybody want to do that :)
Some silat people demo ilmu kebal, one of the master swung the sword to his student who are laying on the table, at the last second he twisted the sword, therefore the flat side of the sword hitting the student..He did that very fast, thank God for the modern Video, you slow it down to see what he is doing....
I'm still believe it when I see it happen in front of my eyes :) Other than that, is hear say...
"Ripley believe it or not" usually documented any extraordinary event.
World record of any of this should be on the "Guines book of world record"
If not, why not? They advertised it why don't have some one with the authority to verified their claim?
Jusst my opinion, of course:)
Tristan

tellner

09-Jul-2006, 10:45 PM

I think that the body (and the spirit!) is capable of a lot more than 'modern science' credits it of being capable of. The role of science is to try to provide an explanation ... sometimes it can't, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the thing that it can't explain is deficient ... it could mean that the science is deficient.

Fair enough. Science is, by definition, imperfect and always changing. Dogma is fixed. When a new fact comes along scientific theory changes to accomodate it and is grateful for the opportunity. Dogma denies it, blames the messenger, or folds up and dies. A scientist would look at people who jump out of buildings and don't get hurt or who can't be cut by knives and would say "How often and under what conditions does this work? If we use someone else's (not his) knife and stab him when he's not ready will he still be invulnerable?"

Richard Feynman(ztl) said that science is a way of keeping us honest, especially with ourselves. To be an honest investigator requires extreme skepticism, constant vigilance against self deception, a willingness to abandon one's pet theory in the face of contrary evidence and rejection of any claims based on the authority of the speaker. "My teacher said" or "It's been documented somewhere" or "The Wisdom of the Ages and the Sacred Scriptures tell us" cut as much ice as a soap hacksaw.

In other words, the more outlandish the claims the more you're going to have to show me and under more controlled conditions. Several million dollars await the first to demonstrate the extraordinary to James Randi and an independent board of examiners.

Rebo Paing

10-Jul-2006, 12:18 AM

Tellner said:
Richard Feynman(ztl) said that science is a way of keeping us honest, especially with ourselves. To be an honest investigator requires extreme skepticism, constant vigilance against self deception, a willingness to abandon one's pet theory in the face of contrary evidence and rejection of any claims based on the authority of the speaker.

Very well put. I think in silat circles this would fall under the category of the rationalist progressives paradigm?
I contend though, that my original observation about understanding the limits of the body fits in this paradigm too, maybe with a slight modification to my original statement. I agree that science is happy to investigate and open to accepting new realities. I like the bit about dogma too. :D

Salam Mas Tristan,
Yes, there are so many huksters ... and I'm always suspicious when something sounds to good to be true ... it's usually correct, it is to good to be true!
The miracle is already in front of us ... there is nothing ordinary about ordinary life!

Salam
Krisno

sulaiman

11-Jul-2006, 06:06 PM

******************
With all do respect Sulaiman, I would believe the stories when I see it. Too many stories like this floating around. None can be justified. Any video/picture? News paper print telling this historic event?This is a great stuff! If only true...My Uncle probably smiling to hear this:) I believe a pig can fly before I believe Guru Oman stories. No one can survive being burried alive without oxcygen for four days....NO ONE!
Sorry, IMHO this is a BS stories, with all do respect my friend.
Tristan[/QUOTE]

salaams Mas Tristan,

Guru Omar Dins feats have indeed been recorded and documented .
There is a well known ( in Malaysia ) documentary about him and many witnesses to his feats
- I will ask Pak Azlan Gani of Seni Bela Diri magzine for the title and codes etc as he is much more knowledgeable than I regarding such things - BUT even if you see the video , hear witness reports etc, will that alter your opinion ?

To be honest I dont think so.

You have seen the video of the mans students jumping from 2 & 3 storey building , but you do not believe that the master can do it.?
did you not see the admiration and respect that the students had for him as they salaam him and kiss his hand - do you think they are all suckers ?
Silat Lincah is the second largest silat in Malaysia - has he fooled everybody ?

It is a characteristic of human ego to be skeptical , that is not a problem , only problem is when one says " show me and I believe " so you show them and they say " No , its a trick , I still dont believe "

This is not being skeptical, it is just being stuck in your opinion no matter what the evidence to the contrary.

If its true , then Why is Guru Omar Din not famous throughout the world for his extraordinary feats, I hear some peole ask.

Well , the answer is that in Silat Melayu , we are not trying to use our silat for worldly power or fame.
We are not interested in having our pictures plastered all over the internet or magazines or videos - we are only interested in ... doing silat.

why show anything at all then I hear you ask ?
well , only to educate and inspire. To show people there is more going on than is encompassed by modern sensibilities of rationalistic materialism , and much more going on in Silat Melayu than punching and kicking ¿

I will mail you when I get more info
adios amigo :)

Orang Jawa

11-Jul-2006, 09:59 PM

Guru Omar Dins feats have indeed been recorded and documented .
There is a well known ( in Malaysia ) documentary about him and many witnesses to his feats
- I will ask Pak Azlan Gani of Seni Bela Diri magzine for the title and codes etc as he is much more knowledgeable than I regarding such things - BUT even if you see the video , hear witness reports etc, will that alter your opinion ?

Salam Sulaiman,
I would like to see the documentation first, is that a facts or hear say. Is some one from the neutral camp over see the demo? I would believe it if the honest/knowledgable person would verify it and swear by it :)

To be honest I dont think so.

Are we a little sore here my friend?

You have seen the video of the mans students jumping from 2 & 3 storey building , but you do not believe that the master can do it.?
My opinion it does not matter, you have said that Guru Oman had jumped from 6 strories buiilding, I would love you back up your statement with facts

did you not see the admiration and respect that the students had for him as they salaam him and kiss his hand - do you think they are all suckers ?
Silat Lincah is the second largest silat in Malaysia - has he fooled everybody ?
Kissing hand is another way to show respect to the elders, not necesarily silat players. Respect is earned and not demanded. If you part of the person who believe that jumping from 3 stories buliding is an honor and obedience/submission to him because he asked you to do that, then that's is your problem. My teacher would not asked his students to do something that defy the normal relationship between teacher and students.

It is a characteristic of human ego to be skeptical , that is not a problem , only problem is when one says " show me and I believe " so you show them and they say " No , its a trick , I still dont believe "

Hey Dude! I grew up in Indonesia, I heard all those things when I grew up, only few of them is valid the rest of it snake oil at best :)
With all do respect Sulaiman, you can defend Guru Oman as much as you want to, the fact is this..could you tell us his bio ? Should be no problem right? He is a famous person...Fact will speaks themselve.

This is not being skeptical, it is just being stuck in your opinion no matter what the evidence to the contrary.
I respect your opinion and you should try to respect others. Being defensive is like you hide something from the truth. The truth my friend, shall set you free.

If its true , then Why is Guru Omar Din not famous throughout the world for his extraordinary feats, I hear some peole ask.
Well , the answer is that in Silat Melayu , we are not trying to use our silat for worldly power or fame.
We are not interested in having our pictures plastered all over the internet or magazines or videos - we are only interested in ... doing silat.

Cut the BS, You are being Hyprocrate here. What do you think his objective to do this demo? Advertisement of his class, improve his standing and more students, more respect and more money? But yet he claimed or you claiming that he don't want to be famous. How about one million dollars for him if he can show that he had a Godly power?
I have known many guru silat in Indonesia, none of them appear in the magazine or video. Let alone doing the demo. I have never seen my teacher, his teacher's teacher did ever do the demo in public. Advertising his silat? You must be joking :)

why show anything at all then I hear you ask ?
well , only to educate and inspire. To show people there is more going on than is encompassed by modern sensibilities of rationalistic materialism , and much more going on in Silat Melayu than punching and kicking ¿

Silat is a gerak badan, don't make a big deal of if. Either you have it or you don't.
Educating people by jumping from the building? You must be kidding...
I've seen a stunt man/women did the landing better than them :)

I will mail you when I get more info
adios amigo :)

Please do that, I like to read his bios, I have alot of friends who lived in Malaysia and they were a good pesilat. I'm going to ask them about this too.
Adios Gringo :)
Tristan

sulaiman

15-Jul-2006, 10:33 AM

[ I respect your opinion and you should try to respect others. Being defensive is like you hide something from the truth. The truth my friend, shall set you free.

Salaams Mas Tristan,
yes i agree with you here - respect is the key issue here and what I am defending is respect for other silat Guru Guru and their aliran.
Something that was lacking from everyones posts regarding this issue

Guru Omar din is not my Guru and I do not have a personal axe to grind - only that when I took my oath with my master I vowed to respect all other silat players and not to make fun , or act superior to them , or to give myself the right to judge whether or not they are " real Silat " .

Silat lincah is respected in malaysia and it is our custom to give respect to those who have respect in their countries and amongst their peers.
i am sure your Malay friends can give you the nitty gritty on Silat lincah - for me I will ask their European representative to post something about them - it is a very interesting story.

salaam silat

sulaiman

Narrue

15-Jul-2006, 11:24 AM

Kiai Carita

15-Jul-2006, 12:18 PM

I do acknowledge that there are tenagadalma skills being used here and you would need it if you’re stupid enough to hurl yourself off the top of a building. We must acknowledge that people are being injured whilst doing these practices, the teacher himself uses a walking stick so what’s the point and was it worth it?
Personally I would like to see him do the opposite, jump high off the ground to an abnormal height and then he has my full respect :D

Warm Salaams to all,

Brother Sulaiman has informed us who Guru Omar Din is and why he has a walking stick. His silat school is a respected silat school and he is a respected member of the Silat community in Malaysia.

Narrue, I believe that none of the students doing jumps injured themselves. How can I acknowledge that people get injured whislt doing these practices when they don't - even if they land wrong according to our military expert Mas Tristan.

Sarge, I wonder why the moderators let this slagging off of a respected Malaysian silat master go on, but delete posts that mention a Californian Pendekar who makes far-out claims about magick his roots to be an ancient palace style Cimande.

Only God knows?

Warm salaams to all

Bram

Narrue

15-Jul-2006, 02:24 PM

The last person did cut his leg quite badly if you watch carefully and I don’t think you can do such things without injury. I thought martial arts was about improving your health, not destroying it for fame.

On a similar note I met a Chinese herbal doctor from Henan, same village as Shaolin temple. I asked her why I only see young shaolin monks perform stunts and what is the physical condition of the older monks. She told me that many of them suffer with arthritis and other health problems but that it is kept quite, she personally treated many of them.

I wonder if I did such things as a young man would I look back as an older man with health problems and say "it was worth it", I don’t think so.

Orang Jawa

15-Jul-2006, 04:00 PM

Sulaiman wrote:Guru Omar din is not my Guru and I do not have a personal axe to grind - only that when I took my oath with my master I vowed to respect all other silat players and not to make fun , or act superior to them , or to give myself the right to judge whether or not they are " real Silat "
*******************
Salam Sulaiman and Kiai Carita,
There is not my intention to disrespect Guru Omar and his Silat Lincah system. I did not know him from Adam, say to speaks. I'm a straight shooter, when someone told me things that outrageous, I like to see it to believe it. I've been around too long to see this things going around and around. Therefore, I am very pesimistic of "all" the claims outthere, I meant all the story tales.
I'm not an expert in silat or in anything, but I know and I preach to my students and to all who want to hear. What is your GOAL/OBJECTIVE to learn Silat or Martial arts?
THINK!!!!
You cannot focus without an object to focus upon.
You cannot arrive somewhere unless there is a "somewhere" to arrive at.
You cannot achieve the goal unless there is a goal. And you cannot have a goal unless a goal has been defined. Therefore to achieve your goal-DEFINE YOUR GOAL!
Obvious? Perhaps, but most silat students or martial arts students do not define their goal before they begin its pursuit.
Defining your goal is not an easy task, it requires you to pin down your desires from an abstract notion to a very real commitment. Defining a goal in learning silat compels you to know that which you wish to accomplish.

If DEFINING your goal is the first step in attaining your goal, then PREPARING for it is your second. Doing that requires spending time on something you believe you know all ready know. Most individuals, however, believe that preparation is not required for sometihng they all ready know. Notihng could be further from the truth. If you don't, you will be in for a very rude, very humbling awakening.

ACHIEVE- The facts are these: Most students do not define their a goal. Of these who do, most won't prepare for it. And among those who both define their goal and prepare for it, most will fail to reach it. They will fail because of an inability to work single-mindedly in a completely focused fashion toward that goal.
Many silat students fail to achieve their goal because they change it while they are working toward it. Why do they do so? Becaue working toward a goal with single minded determination is difficult. It easier to modify your goal or to do away with it altogether than it is to achieve it.

Now, I want all of you to sit down that think as hard as you can, what is your goal in learning silat? Only you can answer it and only you can benefit from it.

WHEN YOU CANNOT DEFINE A GOAL, YOU CONSEQUENTLY CANNOT DEFINE THE PATH TOWARD THAT GOAL. THUS, WITHOUT A GOAL, YOU EXPEND A GREAT DEAL OF ENERGY IN PURSUING MULTIPLE 'FUZZY' GOALS.

Seriously, there are more people who gave up in learning silat because they cannot define their goals and lived all their lives in regret for it, than there are people who achieved their goals and lived to regret it. Far more. Most of us, in fact, are surrouded by those failed lives every day. Most of us could be come one.
DEFINE, PREPARE, ACHIEVE.
My worthless Saturday Sermon,
Tristan

realitychecker

15-Jul-2006, 05:49 PM

Thank you for that, Tristan. Well spoken!
Take care,
JR

sulaiman

17-Jul-2006, 04:14 PM

WHEN YOU CANNOT DEFINE A GOAL, YOU CONSEQUENTLY CANNOT DEFINE THE PATH TOWARD THAT GOAL. THUS, WITHOUT A GOAL, YOU EXPEND A GREAT DEAL OF ENERGY IN PURSUING MULTIPLE 'FUZZY' GOALS.

Seriously, there are more people who gave up in learning silat because they cannot define their goals and lived all their lives in regret for it, than there are people who achieved their goals and lived to regret it. Far more. Most of us, in fact, are surrouded by those failed lives every day. Most of us could be come one.
DEFINE, PREPARE, ACHIEVE.
My worthless Saturday Sermon,
Tristan[/QUOTE]

Salaams Mas tristan,
Not sure how your post relates to the topic we were discussing , but aside from that it is a very interesting topic in itself, and as it was addressed to me I will ask your indulgence for my reply.

I have found that my goals in learning silat have changed the more my practise has increased.

Everyday there comes a new understanding , movement , energy or feeling and the goal posts are constantly moving.

Its like climbing mountains , you get to one horizon to see...another one , even higher.

I am understanding now that this process is endless and will continue until and beyond my death.

For that reason I have abandoned goals or plans.

I am trying to be happy with my Lords plan for me , as his always works out , and mine always fails.

I continue to do silat for the only reason there is ....love.

adios

Pekir

17-Jul-2006, 07:35 PM

It is always nice to see how interpretations and views will change when stuff travels around the world, in this case silat. I love to hear the, in my case Indonesian, stories about the impossible. It may help to be part of a culture to accept the impossible but it's obviously not a neccesary feat. Tristan is a good example of this and I know quite a lot of Indonesians who would agree with him. Well obviously there are people who are completely strange to this magik concept as they are westerners but adhere it as they were Indonesians. I'm somewhat double harted towards this subject of culture and beliefs but that's my own struggle. Who will tell what lies beyond my line of sight......

I would never accept this obligated this kind of 'pledge of allegience' of my guru and happily so he never did. Do I mind if others do, not really. Just do your thing. I'm well aware that it is to a large extend part of the Indonesian/Malayan culture and thats it to me, can't change that even if I wanted to. The way it is expressed may differ but it has been there for a long time, so who am I, just borrowing some of it, to judge people who are willing to do, in my eyes, irresponsible things. I'm not bigger then some square feet around me and I have sometimes even doubt about this :) .

We can be sure of one thing though the kebatinan has always been around in most silat and most of us have gladly taken at least the physical aspect of it. In the western culture it's easier, sometimes even neccesary to led go of the esoteric side and in time more Indonesian/Malayan might even do that to, who knows. I wouldn't want to mock anyone though who truly believes kebatinan and these pledges to be essential, where does it hurt me anyways?

As long as they don't judge me for the lack of it I won't judge them for using it.

Pekir

Orang Jawa

18-Jul-2006, 12:50 AM

Salaams Mas tristan,

Salam Sulaiman :)

Not sure how your post relates to the topic we were discussing , but aside from that it is a very interesting topic in itself, and as it was addressed to me I will ask your indulgence for my reply.

Thank you! I will try to be gentle :)

I have found that my goals in learning silat have changed the more my practise has increased.

I think you are confused between tasks/steps and goal. Before you are joining the silat class, what is your goal to join the silat perguruan?. Ie. Most people learn to be a good silat player, for health reason, for self-defense or for the love of the art, etc. Your goal should not want to learn how to do the very few of basic techniques. That's part of the many steps to achieve your goal..whatever it was.

Everyday there comes a new understanding , movement , energy or feeling and the goal posts are constantly moving.

Once again bro, you cannot achieve your goal if your goal constantly moving. Again you are describing the steps or plateau or tasks. NOT A GOAL.

Its like climbing mountains , you get to one horizon to see...another one , even higher.

Your goal should be to climb the mountain..to be on the top of mountain. But you have to know what mountain you have to climb. When you achieve your goal then plan for another goal. Another example, your goal is to climb the top of mountain Everest. That's your goal, in order to do that, you may have to practice climbing the smaller mountains. This is the task or steps to achieve your goal. After you have achieve climbing the Mountain Everest, then if you wish to climb another higher mountain, that is your choices. The most important things is achieving a goal, whatever your goal is :)

I am understanding now that this process is endless and will continue until and beyond my death.

Becareful with that words, Sulaiman. Just enjoy the process, don't make a big deal of it. Many student made the same promises when they are just started. After 10 years, almost all them quit before achieving their goal.

For that reason I have abandoned goals or plans.

What you describing is NOT a goal but a process/steps/tasks.
Remember, You can not go somewhere, if you don't know "somewhere" is.

I am trying to be happy with my Lords plan for me , as his always works out , and mine always fails.

Sulaiman, don't worry, be happy :)

I continue to do silat for the only reason there is ....love.

The secret of learning silat for along time is, you have to treated silat as something that you love to do. If you happen to love to play tennis, then treated your silat practice as you are playing tennis. If you happen to love biking, then treat silat as part of your biking routine. That's only an example. It works for me, I've been in silat for 52 years. Still slow and move like a pregnant yack with a bad leg :)

adios
Kembali,
Tristan

Orang Jawa

18-Jul-2006, 11:11 AM

Kiai Carita

18-Jul-2006, 11:26 AM

I think you are confused between tasks/steps and goal. Before you are joining the silat class, what is your goal to join the silat perguruan?. Ie. Most people learn to be a good silat player, for health reason, for self-defense or for the love of the art, etc. Your goal should not want to learn how to do the very few of basic techniques. That's part of the many steps to achieve your goal..whatever it was. ...
Tristan

Assalamualaekuuuuum everyone (bowing head, hands in sembah position),

I think that both Mas Tristan and Sulaiman are right and they ARE talking about the same thing from different angles.

When I began studying silat I was told to think about my goal and to achieve that I was to ponder on the question of 'Sangkan Paraning Dumadi' - Where Creation Comes From and Where it Will Go.

So to my mind, silat, and all other ilmu (knowledge) and amal (deeds), should be concentrated on that goal.

Wassalam,
Bram.

Orang Jawa

18-Jul-2006, 12:07 PM

Assalamualaekuuuuum everyone (bowing head, hands in sembah position),

I think that both Mas Tristan and Sulaiman are right and they ARE talking about the same thing from different angles.

When I began studying silat I was told to think about my goal and to achieve that I was to ponder on the question of 'Sangkan Paraning Dumadi' - Where Creation Comes From and Where it Will Go.

So to my mind, silat, and all other ilmu (knowledge) and amal (deeds), should be concentrated on that goal.

Wassalam,
Bram.

Wa Alaikum Salam Bram :)
I respectfully disagree with you. There is no angels. Define your goal, prepare for it and achieve it. Let me try to give another example:
You are planning to visit your family in Jakarta, that is your goal.
On your way to Jakarta by car, half way, the road is blocked by falling trees. It force you to turn around and make another way. You decided to go by plane, there is no plane available. You have two alternatives, to wait for plane or to wait for the road to clear up OR abandon your goal to visit your family. There is no angle :)

We got to focus on our goal, it is much easier to abandon than to stay the course. Therefore, define your goal, a simple and achievable goal. When your goal is accomplished than go for a bigger goal. There is no angle :)

Another example. You want to become a doctor. You have to go to grade school, undergraduate, postgraduate, and Medical School. We are talking about over 22 years of schooling. Anything can happen in those 22 years. But at the end, your goal is still to become a Doctor. Either you achieve it or you failed. There is no angles:)
Warm Regards,
Tristan

Kiai Carita

18-Jul-2006, 12:29 PM

Wa Alaikum Salam Bram :)
I respectfully disagree with you. There is no angels. Define your goal, prepare for it and achieve it. Let me try to give another example:
You are planning to visit your family in Jakarta, that is your goal.
On your way to Jakarta by car, half way, the road is blocked by falling trees. It force you to turn around and make another way. You decided to go by plane, there is no plane available. You have two alternatives, to wait for plane or to wait for the road to clear up OR abandon your goal to visit your family. There is no angle :)

We got to focus on our goal, it is much easier to abandon than to stay the course. Therefore, define your goal, a simple and achievable goal. When your goal is accomplished than go for a bigger goal. There is no angle :)

Another example. You want to become a doctor. You have to go to grade school, undergraduate, postgraduate, and Medical School. We are talking about over 22 years of schooling. Anything can happen in those 22 years. But at the end, your goal is still to become a Doctor. Either you achieve it or you failed. There is no angles:)
Warm Regards,
Tristan

Thank you for the response, Mas Tristan. I must of understiod you wrong, then. May I ask, what is your goal in learning silat?

Warm regards too,
Bram

Orang Jawa

18-Jul-2006, 01:07 PM

Thank you for the response, Mas Tristan. I must of understiod you wrong, then. May I ask, what is your goal in learning silat?

Warm regards too,
Bram

Salam Bram,
Am I wrong? That is your opinon...Thank you :)
At first, I don't have a goal to learn silat, I was told to do so or else :)
When I was teen, my goal is for bela diri...Mission accomplished, I've been in many streetfights and enjoyed it and lived to tell about it.:)
As an adult, my goal was and still is..Learning silat for the love of the arts.
As I had said, I've been in silat for over 5 decades and still learning.
May I ask you Bram or Sulaiman?
Since you are talking with the authority in silat or it seemed, how long you have been in silat? And what is your goal to learn silat?
Tristan

Kiai Carita

18-Jul-2006, 01:29 PM

Salam Bram,
Am I wrong? That is your opinon...Thank you :)
At first, I don't have a goal to learn silat, I was told to do so or else :)
When I was teen, my goal is for bela diri...Mission accomplished, I've been in many streetfights and enjoyed it and lived to tell about it.:)
As an adult, my goal was and still is..Learning silat for the love of the arts.
As I had said, I've been in silat for over 5 decades and still learning.
May I ask you Bram or Sulaiman?
Since you are talking with the authority in silat or it seemed, how long you have been in silat? And what is your goal to learn silat?
Tristan

Salaam, Mas Tristan,

I did not say you were wrong, I said that I understood you wrong. I thought that you were saying that one needed a goal in silat, and I thought that it meant God. So it was my mistake, and I appologise for misscommunicating.

I am younger than you Mas Tristan, and have only been studying silat a short while, so I am not an authority. I began learning silat in 1983 when I was 18 and when I was beginning, I was told to meditate on the question where is Creation from and where is it going (Sangkan Paraning Dumadi). For me, Creation is from God and will go back to God, and so all ilmu (knowledge, including silat) and amal ( deeds, including the keeping of silat and the applications of silat) need to have that goal in mind.

Without the goal in mind you might miss, right?

Warm salaams,
Bram.

Orang Jawa

18-Jul-2006, 01:45 PM

Salam all,
I'm not surprise with some missunderstanding the meaning of goal. Its not a language barriers or different cultures. Its just too many people don't understand the important of goal..... in anything.

How many of us failed to achieved our goal in something? But the fact is, many of us failed in something. Therefore, first we have to define our goal, its a long and thughtfull process. We have to ask ourselves, it is achievable goal? It is realistic goal?
Different goal requires different tasks, are we prepare for it? Are we willing to stay the course to achieve it?
With all do respect, many Asian silat players or silat students in general have a very broad and an unattainable goals ie. to be a Saint, a Fierce and Compassionate Warrior, and Humble.

IMHO, trying to be a Saint but at the same times bragging about their Godly power (Takabur), Preching to be a warrior but never been in fights, pretend to be a religious but practice something that contradicted with the religion practices, Preaching to be compassionate but not practice what they preach (how many of this people volunteer their time to help the poor and the needy, donated something to the Masjid, or just simply donated time to help others?)
Define your goal....
You can't have a goal to be a Saint, Jago, Warrior, Compassionate person, all in one goal. Choose one and go for it. Otherwise, you have a fuzzy goals.
Tristan

Orang Jawa

18-Jul-2006, 01:59 PM

Salaam, Mas Tristan,

I did not say you were wrong, I said that I understood you wrong. I thought that you were saying that one needed a goal in silat, and I thought that it meant God. So it was my mistake, and I appologise for misscommunicating.

I am younger than you Mas Tristan, and have only been studying silat a short while, so I am not an authority. I began learning silat in 1983 when I was 18 and when I was beginning, I was told to meditate on the question where is Creation from and where is it going (Sangkan Paraning Dumadi). For me, Creation is from God and will go back to God, and so all ilmu (knowledge, including silat) and amal ( deeds, including the keeping of silat and the applications of silat) need to have that goal in mind.

Without the goal in mind you might miss, right?

Warm salaams,
Bram.

Salam Mas Bram,
No need to appologize, we are talking among friend, disagreement is allows :)
I think, I can be wrong on this, as usual. Many people in Asia learn silat without separating religion and gerak badan. IMHO, you don't have to learn silat if your goal to be a religious person and you don't have be religious if your goal learning silat is gerak badan. This two separate entities if I may say. Love is kindness, kindness is compassionate but love is not religion.
I can be wrong too :)
Warm regards,
Tristan

sulaiman

18-Jul-2006, 05:28 PM

May I ask you Bram or Sulaiman?
Since you are talking with the authority in silat or it seemed, how long you have been in silat? And what is your goal to learn silat?
Tristan[/QUOTE]

Salaams Mas Tristan,
Of course you may ask - I am a youngster - training silat only these last 13 years, but I am a lucky one and found a proper guru , so when i say training I mean it - as I had the honour of being accepted to live with my master.

As for my goals - i do not think I am confused about the meaning of the term , I have 1 goal and 1 goal only , it is to be an obedient servant to my Lord Almighty.
How does this relate to Silat ?
Well , to be a servant of your lord , you must first stop being a servant of your ego and its desires.
To train silat you must find a master, the ego must accept an authority over it , this is a step in the right direction.
We start with the body , silat training combats laziness.
we continue with the emotions and silat training combats fear , anger and aggression.
We continue with the mind and silat training combats prejudice, tunnel vision - the mind abiding in things .
We continue to Spirit and ... well ..the ultimate goal could be stated as to aquire good manners and characteristics, towards your fellow creatures and people in the creation but most importantly to your creator.

Our models are the Companions of the Holy Prophet , who were trained and refined by their following of his way.

There is for me no discrepancy between a saint, a warrior etc - the sahabis were ALL these things and more rolled into one - they have left us a way , which if we try with sincere intention to follow it - must arrive to the same destination -
These are not " fuzzy goals " they are clear cut , definite and achievable , as one master said specialization is for insects , a man must be able to build houses , write poetry, fight wars , change nappies , grow vegetables, sail ships etc

We do not know our own potentials or limits - our goal must be to come out of the shadows and live in the light

From Allah we are coming and to Allah we are returning.

As for not equating religion with love - I dont know what religion you are pracising but for me its ALL and only about love.
The message of all religion as I understand and have been taught it is only to love one another.
:Angel:
Adios Hermano

Orang Jawa

18-Jul-2006, 08:59 PM

As for not equating religion with love - I dont know what religion you are pracising but for me its ALL and only about love.

Salam Sulaiman,
It is very obvious that we are interpreted the whole things in different views, that's okay...I agree to disagree :)

When I said love is not religion meaning that when we trully love one another, when we are compassionate about others need as ours. When we are act and be kind to another human being, that's love. Love don't kill....
Religion? Historically, the leader of organized religion always preaching kindness to the people who are agreeing with them, otherwise, they are would be scrutinized, chastisesed it, and they find any reason to justify the killing of another human being. Proof me wrong, please????????

The message of all religion as I understand and have been taught it is only to love one another.
:Angel:

Sadly they do not practice what they preach.
Tristan

Orang Jawa

18-Jul-2006, 09:52 PM

Salaams Mas Tristan,
Of course you may ask - I am a youngster - training silat only these last 13 years, but I am a lucky one and found a proper guru , so when i say training I mean it - as I had the honour of being accepted to live with my master.

Right back at you Sulaiman :)
Its good to hear that you have found a true master and being accepted to live with your master. Learning one to one is always the best.

As for my goals - i do not think I am confused about the meaning of the term , I have 1 goal and 1 goal only , it is to be an obedient servant to my Lord Almighty.

Alhamdullilah!! Thank God all mighty.
That is a huge goal to achieve. Another modren Gandhi or Mother Teresa?
But Good luck and God Bless.

How does this relate to Silat ?

Please do tell :)

Well , to be a servant of your lord , you must first stop being a servant of your ego and its desires.

I agree wholeheartly, but tell me who does not have an ego? This is a bad habit or character defects, everyone have it. To keep your ego at bay, you must learn what an ego is? Surrendered to HIM and accepted that we all have an ego. We can be proud of what we have or we want to do with it but we must also understand the consequences of being an ego person.

To train silat you must find a master, the ego must accept an authority over it , this is a step in the right direction.

I agree, You must accept your teacher as he is. Empty your cup!

We start with the body , silat training combats laziness.
we continue with the emotions and silat training combats fear , anger and aggression.

I agree to disagree here. Silat training is gerak badan and laziness is behavior or bad habit. What is lazines anyway? Can you elaborate on this?
Combat fear? Everyone fear of something, courarge can overcome the fear, by just learning silat, its not a guarrany to combat fear, it help but not guarranty.
As far as Anger? Have you ever read or go to anger management seminar? This is nothing to do with silat though, just a professional psychologist teaching us how to handle our anger. A good seminar I may say.

We continue with the mind and silat training combats prejudice, tunnel vision - the mind abiding in things .

Sound very interesting..If I may ask, do your master have a student that practice other religion? Christian, Buddha or Jewish?
If not why not? Why he only teach to Muslim student? Is that prejudice toward other religion? Or belief that only muslim students deserve to learn silat? Is that a tunnel vision? Remember we agree that we should love everyone? Regardless race,nationality, and belief?

We continue to Spirit and ... well ..the ultimate goal could be stated as to aquire good manners and characteristics, towards your fellow creatures and people in the creation but most importantly to your creator.

I respect your belief. If your belief is true then please teach the people in the Middle East ie. like Iraq, Israel, Lebanon, Aghanistan a good silat. To STOP this senseless killing. People who claimed a religious but able to justify killing as a Holly War. People who kidnapped an innocent and cut their throats, shot them to death or bomb their home/houses just because they being different then them, a Sunny vs. Shites for example both of this people religion are Islam.

Our models are the Companions of the Holy Prophet , who were trained and refined by their following of his way.

Is a good model, indeed.

There is for me no discrepancy between a saint, a warrior etc - the sahabis were ALL these things and more rolled into one - they have left us a way , which if we try with sincere intention to follow it - must arrive to the same destination -
These are not " fuzzy goals " they are clear cut , definite and achievable , as one master said specialization is for insects , a man must be able to build houses , write poetry, fight wars , change nappies , grow vegetables, sail ships etc

Your opinion may be differ.
We have different goal for different things, there is no such things is one goal and one goal only.

Let me gave another example of a simple goal.

If I plan to eat dinner tonight, my goal is eating dinner. My tasks are either I'm going to cook or going out to a restaurant or find someone who will cook for me or give me a food. If I don't do neither, I failed my goal.

If you work for someone, some one, your boss or manager will give you an objective/goal, that goal becomes your goal, if you are not succesfully achieve that goal, you may have to pay some consenquences.

If I play to practice
We do not know our own potentials or limits - our goal must be to come out of the shadows and live in the light

Wise words :)

From Allah we are coming and to Allah we are returning.

Inna Lilahi Wa Inna Lillahi Raziun?

Wassalam,
Tristan

Rebo Paing

19-Jul-2006, 01:11 AM

Mas Tristan said:
I respect your belief. If your belief is true then please teach the people in the Middle East ie. like Iraq, Israel, Lebanon, Aghanistan a good silat. To STOP this senseless killing. People who claimed a religious but able to justify killing as a Holly War. People who kidnapped an innocent and cut their throats, shot them to death or bomb their home/houses just because they being different then them, a Sunny vs. Shites for example both of this people religion are Islam.

Rahayu Mas Tristan,
In my humble opinion, the situation in the world today is the result of oppression that has been going on for a long time, and the threads become visible from the days of colonialisation. It's still happening today.

The turmoil in the Middle East (and elsehwere) is a direct result of an environment that results from oppression. For an example of environments and what can happen, let's look at a micro-cosm. If we create an environment with no sewerage, people can catch dysentry and cholera because those pathogens thrive in that environment.

Religion and beliefs become convenient red herrings, because it has the effect to change people's focus from what is the root cause of conflict, social injustice and oppression. Social injustice and oppression creates a ripe environment for regional conflict. Sure there have been conflict between Shi'a and Sunni, but it is out of proportion because of world political environmental situation I think.

Think about it, more innocent people have died as a direct result of the conquest and the negative influence of the West (there also have been positive influences), than those who died as a direct result of 'terrorism'. You might find some of that information on the Internet.

Que Bono? Who benefits? Just follow the money ...

And to steer this back into the discussion ... I think we can all agree that some people see a separation between spirituality and actions (e.g. Gerak Badan) and some people do not. :Angel:

Personally I believe manunggaling kawula Gusti, my life is an expression of Hyang Widhi, Gusti Alah. So while I can appreciate the Gerak Badan aspect, it is to me inseparable to my spiritual being :D .

Oh, and I am not as old as you either ... hehe. I have only been playing 'gerak badan' for 40 years, only last 5 years I start to understand a little :D .

Salam
Krisno

Orang Jawa

19-Jul-2006, 02:05 PM

Rahayu Mas Tristan,
In my humble opinion, the situation in the world today is the result of oppression that has been going on for a long time, and the threads become visible from the days of colonialisation. It's still happening today.

Kembali Mas Krisno,
I agree with you in general. However, historically, people killing others because they can't agree in anything, right? With that they will find away to justify their actions, economic, oppression, religion, lands, security, etc. etc.

Religion and beliefs become convenient red herrings, because it has the effect to change people's focus from what is the root cause of conflict, social injustice and oppression. Social injustice and oppression creates a ripe environment for regional conflict. Sure there have been conflict between Shi'a and Sunni, but it is out of proportion because of world political environmental situation I think.

I'm not a very religious person, but I can't justify killing innocent human being because they are different. Killing them to avenge the killing of their comrades, bombs the cities for the reason of securiy. Invade soverign country for what ever reason. Killing is killing, period. If we are all believe that all religion teaching to love one another then what was going on is not love but hate. Hate is a sin. How could you justify Bali bombing for example?

Think about it, more innocent people have died as a direct result of the conquest and the negative influence of the West (there also have been positive influences), than those who died as a direct result of 'terrorism'. You might find some of that information on the Internet.

It goes both ways my friend. Just to blame the Western world is an easy way out. Did you know how difficult it is to be a Muslim when all you heard in the news is about how a Muslim killing each other? Some of them even took a video, showing the body of being mutilated? Burn body hanging from the bridge?

Que Bono? Who benefits? Just follow the money ...
Hmm, I'm an economist, I do believe economy will benefited from war. But in Iraq's sectarian war, it will hurt the Iraq's economy and its people.

And to steer this back into the discussion ... I think we can all agree that some people see a separation between spirituality and actions (e.g. Gerak Badan) and some people do not. :Angel:

Yes we agree to disagree here :)
I do believe they should have two separate goals. Goal for gerak badan and a goal for being spirituals. Unfortunately people in Indonesian and Malaysia believe that only Muslim people entittle to learn silat. Until all the silat masters believe that Gerak Badan is for everyone regardless Religion, race, color, nationality. Until they can teach gerak badan without preaching religion, we will always disagree. That's okay too :

Personally I believe manunggaling kawula Gusti, my life is an expression of Hyang Widhi, Gusti Alah. So while I can appreciate the Gerak Badan aspect, it is to me inseparable to my spiritual being :D .

I highly respect your believe.
All religion believe the same thing.....Not just Muslim, we have to keep an open mind here. But Silat is NOT Islam. Silat is gerak badan and Islam is a religion. We have to step back and imagine how we feel if we are not a muslim but want to learn silat from the true silat master in Indonesia.

Oh, and I am not as old as you either ... hehe. I have only been playing 'gerak badan' for 40 years, only last 5 years I start to understand a little :D .
Salam
Krisno

I was as good as of yesterday, and yesterday I was only a beginer :)
Warm regards,
Tristan

Pekir

19-Jul-2006, 05:51 PM

Whisky Tango Foxtrot!
Are you accussing me promoting magick? Please read my previous posts then feel free to have an opinion. It seemed you DID NOT!
Tristan

Tristan,

Not sure if there will be two replies but I touched the wrong button and my unfinished reply dissapeared. So a second attempt.

I have read your posts in this thread very good so I have no reason to assume you would ever even think to promote magickal/kenatinan aspects of silat. In the contrary. I would sooner consider you as fierce against.

My post was meant to take a position in the middle, which is easy since I'm of mixed blood :) . Again as far as I'm concerned, I like to hear the stories but are very sceptical about the magick phenomena. I understand though that people who live in Indonesia or Malaysia are more set to accept the magick/kebatinan because for most of them it's part of their culture. On the other hand I stated there are people who where once or still are part of that culture who will not accept the magick/ilmu as a fact of life. Based on reading your posts you are one of them, and I reffered to quite a few Indonesians I know that share your opinion. Just to be sure, mentioning your name was in anyway not meant to be judgemental.

What amazes me more though is that there also some western guru's who haven't originally culturally been exposed to this magick/kebatinan aspect and use it nowadays to claim and promote their silat as something special because of it. Almost to the extend that their silat is OK but their kebatinan is what makes it extra special. Claims which are in most cases quite doubtful to say the least.

Won't claim my earlier post adds much value to this thread but I hope this clarifies some of what I posted earlier.

Pekir

sulaiman

19-Jul-2006, 06:43 PM

Salaams mas Tristan

As for my goals - i do not think I am confused about the meaning of the term , I have 1 goal and 1 goal only , it is to be an obedient servant to my Lord Almighty.

Alhamdullilah!! Thank God all mighty.
That is a huge goal to achieve. Another modren Gandhi or Mother Teresa?
But Good luck and God Bless.

Not quite my brother , but as you said we must formalize our goal and maintain it with firm intention - why settle for second best - we know about the existence of AwliyaAllah - why not try to keep their company.? Why not intend to join them ?

How does this relate to Silat ?

Please do tell :)

Well , to be a servant of your lord , you must first stop being a servant of your ego and its desires.

I agree wholeheartly, but tell me who does not have an ego? This is a bad habit or character defects, everyone have it. To keep your ego at bay, you must learn what an ego is?

yes quite , everyone has an ego - we must train it to be our servant , not live to serve its desires and wants - the negative characteristics of the ego are well documented by the scholars of the science of the heart

Anger
pride
arrogance
envy
hatred
greed
laziness
stinginess
I could go on for a while here...
Once we have inentified our predominant bad characteristics through self observation and reflection , we must work to rid ourselves of their domination.

This can only be done these days under the supervision of a master.

.We start with the body , silat training combats laziness.
we continue with the emotions and silat training combats fear , anger and aggression.

I agree to disagree here. Silat training is gerak badan and laziness is behavior or bad habit. What is lazines anyway? Can you elaborate on this?

Laziness is the egos reluctance to engage in life - it is the desire of material energy to sink to the lowest point of inertia.

Combat fear? Everyone fear of something, courarge can overcome the fear, by just learning silat, its not a guarrany to combat fear, it help but not guarranty.

Help is ok - its what we need[

/COLOR]

As far as Anger? Have you ever read or go to anger management seminar? This is nothing to do with silat though, just a professional psychologist teaching us how to handle our anger. A good seminar I may say.
[COLOR=Olive]
anger is the lowest level of the ego, we must swallow it down .
Being smacked around , shouted out , publicly humiliated - all tricks of the master to bring out your anger , if you can keep your cool you start to build an anger restrainer -

We continue with the mind and silat training combats prejudice, tunnel vision - the mind abiding in things .

Sound very interesting..If I may ask, do your master have a student that practice other religion? Christian, Buddha or Jewish?
If not why not? Why he only teach to Muslim student? Is that prejudice toward other religion? Or belief that only muslim students deserve to learn silat? Is that a tunnel vision? Remember we agree that we should love everyone? Regardless race,nationality, and belief?

I am afraid you are jumping to conclusions based on your own prejudice here- My master not only has non muslim students, but more - he doesnt care about their belief , race , age or any other label we care to put .
what he cares about is - do you really want to learn ? Are you willing to DO , not just to listen but to PRACTISE.

I respect your belief. If your belief is true then please teach the people in the Middle East ie. like Iraq, Israel, Lebanon, Aghanistan a good silat. To STOP this senseless killing.

Sure - Please stop the killing

We have different goal for different things, there is no such things is one goal and one goal only.

Then we must agree to disaree Mas, for me there is only one real goal , and until we have acheved that , all else is ...forgetfullness

Adios

sulaiman

sulaiman

19-Jul-2006, 06:53 PM

I'm not a very religious person, but I can't justify killing innocent human being because they are different. Killing them to avenge the killing of their comrades, bombs the cities for the reason of securiy. Invade soverign country for what ever reason. Killing is killing, period. If we are all believe that all religion teaching to love one another then what was going on is not love but hate. Hate is a sin. How could you justify Bali bombing for example?

Salaams again

No muslim can justify religiously the killing you mentioned above .
this killing is a result of our obedience to our lower ego , and its negative characteristics- I kill you because my pride and anger tells me I have more right to live than you .
I kill you because my love of the world wants for myself the things you have

This is not religion.
This is the result of our serving our ego.
The Prophets came to show us the way to free ourselves from this and certain of the Awliya Allah continue with this purpose

The purpose of religion is to combat these charateristics within ourselves , only when our own hearts are at peace will we manifest peace in the world.

Adios

tellner

20-Jul-2006, 10:09 AM

I'll be glad to accept the magic, animal spirits, bone-pointing and all the rest. No problem. The only catch is you're going to have to prove it. And since you're making extraordinary claims the proof will have to be really extraordinary. "My holy book says" or "My guru says" or "You're a skeptic so it won't work" are so lame as to be actively insulting to the audience. If you want to convince intelligent people of the reality you need to have real evidence that can survive the death of 1000 cuts of Occam's Razor.

Again, millions of dollars (which you could give to the poor or tsunami relief) await if you can make it work unequivocally under controlled conditions in the presence of James Randi and a mutually chosen board of disinterested judges.

Orang Jawa

20-Jul-2006, 03:42 PM

Salam All,
Pekir thank you for taking the time to explain your position, I do appreciated. I can share your feeling too. I'm not a Ducth-Indo. But I was born and grew up in Jakarta, Indonesia till I'm 18 years old and I lived in the USA for over 38 years. So I know how you felt is certain things.

Todd, well spoken!

To all pesilats...
This is my honest opinion, I'm not going to pull punches here :)
Silat is ilmu gerak badan meaning the art of body movements PERIOD!
Religion is a religion, you can slice it dice it, is still a religion, belief, and faith.
Many people mixed the two things together. I highly respected their goal, but it is almost impossible task to do. Because talking, planning and preaching are an easy tasks but to do it? You can answer that yourself. :)

Ilmu gerak badan, in order to perform the require technique correctly, you must concentrate to the moves, your mind must be focus to your body, techniques (speed, timing, power, agility and versetality) and awareness. Yes prior to start, you think and pray to God or say: Bismillah Hirahman Hirahim or in Christian/Yaweh/Budda's prayers, but then you have to act, it is almost impossible to think about God and praying while performing. You can thank sGod after, Sukur Alhamdulilah! But while performing we must concentrate and focus to the the art of body movements. This what I'm talking about separation between Silat and Religion.

Some attempting to put the goal together, meaning if you learn silat you will become a good person and eventually went to Heaven. They are try to potrait that a true silat players are servant of God, therefore they would be guarranty to go to Heaven.
I'm agree this is a simple way to talk about and the easy way to plan. The problem are, many a good silat players not following their religious belief to the "T"

Sulaiman telling us why he learning silat, he preach us what is silat. Be honest my friends, how many good silat players do you know that follow that tasks to the fullest?
On the Religous duty, how many of us or your teacher do this?
Since Mas Bram, Mas Krisno, and Mas Sulaiman brought this, I'm going to make an examples in Islamic way. But any of you who are not Islam, asks the same questions

1. Did you or your teacher prays 5 or times more a day?
2. Have you or teacher do a good DEEDS today, this week, this month, this year?
For examples:
a. Donated money to the Mosques/Churchs/Temples, etc.
b. Donated money to the poor or needies?
c. Donated your times to clean the Masjid/Churches/Temples, etc.
d. Volunteer your times for your religious duty, non-profit organizations etc.
e. Helping your parents/brothers and sisters financially, physically, and mentally?
3. For the Muslims, instead buying a new car or travell, use the money to go to Haj?
4. Helping your neighbours
5. Promote equalities, sex/gender/age/nationality in the work place and in general.
6. Promote Peace and Harmony.

I think this is the basic principles to be a good religous person.
Now, if you answer truthfully that you and your teacher did all the above, then, only then I believe what you all saying about Silat and Religion. Other than that? I call it: a Crocodile mouth with cannary ass. Talk is cheap.
You all can do the above and NOT learning silat either. So with that I end my opinion that to learn silat you must define your goal in silat. In Religion, if your goal is going to Heaven, then start do what your religion asked you to do, start NOW!!!!!

With the devastations caused by Tsunamis and Earthquakes in Indonesia. I can only assumed that all silat schools in Indonesia. Their teacher would ask donations and ask their students to volunteer their time for their muslim brothers and sisters, and the needy, right? I would think so, because they are preaching to be a good human being through silat, right?

No punt intended just telling like it is. No excuses!
Again talk is cheap!
Tristan

Rebo Paing

21-Jul-2006, 01:27 AM

I can only speak for myself ... I am not a follower of any religious dogma. Am I Hindu, Taoist, Christian, Buddhist or Muslim? I am none of those in a dogma religious sense, but I akcnowledge the spiritual self in ALL of those!
Who is my sangha, who is my ummat? It is the whole world around me ... not only the people in mesjid, stupa or in church.
I am spiritual mystic in MYSELF "Manunggalling kawula Gusti" . I am not trying to make anyone same as me!
So what I mean about the spiritual element in movement or gerak badan is that if essence is spirituality, it is not separated from anything you do.
I don't have to say Bismillah-hirahmani-rahim, Hum-mane-padme-hum or the Lords Prayer (or I can choose to say it), but it make no difference, because whatever I do I already spiritual, and when I get distracted by nafs/my weaknesses I go off rails sometimes.
Spiritualism is always a personal thing. It is not something that must be put on to others.
Mas Tristan already show that you do the right thing by your beliefs and definitions. That means to me that YOU are a spiritual person. We each have our ways. When you define your way, you make a difference between Gerak Badan and Spirituality ... that is OK and it is the way you define. I respect that 100%.
What guides people in life to make goals and to achieve them? What guides a person's sense of right and of wrong? It is the individual belief system. It isn NOT necessarily the agama (religion) that the person says they have. In my understanding Agama (religion) and the sense of the spiritual (kebatinan) are not necessarily the same things, even if they coincide sometimes.
Why do Christians, Buddhists, Taoists, Hindus and Muslims kill? For many reasons, but none of them because of MY sense of spirituality ... every human has problems with their nafsu ... it is not because of spirituality, but because of a lack of it maybe :D .
The spiritual is in the smile of a child, in the song of a bird, in the sway of the tree, the wisdom of maturity, the colour of sunset, the splatter of rain, the kalepasan when doing gerak-badan ... and the light side always has the dark side too.
I already know what heaven can be like, and I already know what hell can be like ... is it the same as the poetic descriptions in religious holy books? Sometimes and usually not ... hehe, but to read spirituality you don't open a book, you read nature, life all around us, that is the 'book'. What is the meaning of 'good deeds' and praying 5 times a day and going into a building that cost millions of dollars/rupiah to pray? As you say, the money could be better spent ... praying is the internal discourse of ones own spirituality and can happen anywhere ... even on the toilet!
And THAT is why spiritual self is always present because being spiritual attaches to the art of being in the moment ... even when doing Gerak Badan, :p

Salam
Krisno

Orang Jawa

21-Jul-2006, 01:42 AM

Salam Mas Krisno,
Thank you for the priceless information, my appology for putting you in the same category and belief as Sulaiman.
I was not against Spirituality or against religion. I was just clarifiying where I'm stand on this issue.
I think its about time we close this discussion, don't you think :)
My worthless opinon,
Tristan

Rebo Paing

21-Jul-2006, 08:17 PM

Rahayu Mas Tristan and everyone,
Priceless information from Moi? :D

I think that the Silat forum has a lot of thoughtful and insightful personalities.
I appreciate the discussion present on this forum, and I'm grateful for everyone's input. It's very healthy I think, and the nature of silat is so broad!
Mas Suleiman (if I'm not mistaken) practices ilmu tassawuf. I have a strong attraction to tassawuf ... but I hesitate to categorise, as Mas Suleiman is a capable communicator himself :) .
As for Bram, my little brother is an enigma even to me :Alien: .
He still manages to teach me about life things that matter and I wouldn't swap him for quids ... hehe.

Salam
Krisno

Kiai Carita

22-Jul-2006, 05:10 PM

.....On the Religous duty, how many of us or your teacher do this? Since Mas Bram, Mas Krisno, and Mas Sulaiman brought this, I'm going to make an examples in Islamic way. But any of you who are not Islam, asks the same questions

1. Did you or your teacher prays 5 or times more a day?
2. Have you or teacher do a good DEEDS today, this week, this month, this year?
For examples:
a. Donated money to the Mosques/Churchs/Temples, etc.
b. Donated money to the poor or needies?
c. Donated your times to clean the Masjid/Churches/Temples, etc.
d. Volunteer your times for your religious duty, non-profit organizations etc.
e. Helping your parents/brothers and sisters financially, physically, and mentally?
3. For the Muslims, instead buying a new car or travell, use the money to go to Haj?
4. Helping your neighbours
5. Promote equalities, sex/gender/age/nationality in the work place and in general.
6. Promote Peace and Harmony.

I think this is the basic principles to be a good religous person.
Now, if you answer truthfully that you and your teacher did all the above, then, only then I believe what you all saying about Silat and Religion.....
Tristan

Assalamualaekum, Kakangmas Tristan,

1.My teacher is Roman Catholic and follows the Chinese tradition of ancestor-shrine keeping, so he doesn'r shalat 5 times a day. I am meant to do that and unfortunately there are many holes in my shalat.

2.Yes my teacher does much good work in the community, as a teacher and as a healer not demanding payment. I do volunteer work for my community all the time.

3. I can't afford to go on the Hajj yet but want to go one day. I have no car I do not drive I walk, cycle, or use public transport.

To tell you the truth the silat I learn is not based on Islam, it is based on Chinese philosophy. However, practising it brought me closer to Islam.

Warm salaams to all,
Bram.

Orang Jawa

24-Jul-2006, 12:30 AM

To tell you the truth the silat I learn is not based on Islam, it is based on Chinese philosophy. However, practising it brought me closer to Islam.

Warm salaams to all,
Bram

Salam Mas Bram,
Thank you for your honest response :) We are all human after all.
Spirituality is relationship with the Maker, Acknowledgement of a High Power. Spirituality is NOT a religion. You can be a highly spiritual but not a religious. At the same token, you can be a religious person but not a spiritual. The two can be hand in hand, though. Most of us would love to be a religous and spiritual person. Now attempting to put ilmu gerak badan into the two concepts can be a very confusing and rather difficult. You can be a spiritual to learn silat by thanking and acknowledge God for giving you the gift to perform silat. It can be hairy when you are doing a techniques to kill in the name of Allah/God/Buddha, though.
Lets stay back for a second. Silat is a martial arts, so when somebody asked you, what is your objective learning martial arts. If one answer is to learn how to defend myself or to learn the art of body movements, IMHO,that's the right answer. But when one answer the question by inserting the word of God/Allah? Is he/she may forgot that their objective of silat technique is to hurt or kill someone in the name of self-defense? But yet he/she preached about God and Love.
My worthless opinon,
Tristan

sulaiman

24-Jul-2006, 12:33 PM

Salaams all,especially Mas tristan

To all pesilats...
This is my honest opinion, I'm not going to pull punches here :)
Silat is ilmu gerak badan meaning the art of body movements PERIOD!

Ok my brother, but what is a body - what is the difference between an Alive and a Dead one?
I do not believe it is possible to seperate the soul and body until death, so my silat encompasses both aspects.

Religion is a religion, you can slice it dice it, is still a religion, belief, and faith.
Many people mixed the two things together. I highly respected their goal, but it is almost impossible task to do.

But not impossible right ..

Because talking, planning and preaching are an easy tasks but to do it? You can answer that yourself. :)

Ilmu gerak badan, in order to perform the require technique correctly, you must concentrate to the moves, your mind must be focus to your body,

Actually i find that focusing the mind on the body kills the movement.
We try to not stop the mind in one place, that way it can be where it is needed.

techniques (speed, timing, power, agility and versetality) and awareness. Yes prior to start, you think and pray to God or say: Bismillah Hirahman Hirahim or in Christian/Yaweh/Budda's prayers, but then you have to act, it is almost impossible to think about God and praying while performing.

No its not -you can train yourself to always have the Name of Allah Almighty in your heart and on your tongue ,
You can thank sGod after, Sukur Alhamdulilah! But while performing we must concentrate and focus to the the art of body movements. This what I'm talking about separation between Silat and Religion.

Some attempting to put the goal together, meaning if you learn silat you will become a good person and eventually went to Heaven. They are try to potrait that a true silat players are servant of God, therefore they would be guarranty to go to Heaven.
I'm agree this is a simple way to talk about and the easy way to plan. The problem are, many a good silat players not following their religious belief to the "T"

Sulaiman telling us why he learning silat, he preach us what is silat. Be honest my friends, how many good silat players do you know that follow that tasks to the fullest?

I state my knowledge from my practise-there is only one person here preaching to be authority on what is silat.

On the Religous duty, how many of us or your teacher do this?
Since Mas Bram, Mas Krisno, and Mas Sulaiman brought this, I'm going to make an examples in Islamic way. But any of you who are not Islam, asks the same questions

I do not like to answer this question as it develops pride , but from the questions this indicates very basic level of practise.
You talk only of Fard -obligatory for everyone, we try to follow sunnah,you draw near your Lord through voluntary worship
1. Did you or your teacher prays 5 or times more a day? T
2. Have you or teacher do a good DEEDS today, this week, this month, this year?
For examples:
a. Donated money to the Mosques/Churchs/Temples, etc.
b. Donated money to the poor or needies?
c. Donated your times to clean the Masjid/Churches/Temples, etc.
d. Volunteer your times for your religious duty, non-profit organizations etc.
e. Helping your parents/brothers and sisters financially, physically, and mentally?
3. For the Muslims, instead buying a new car or travell, use the money to go to Haj?
4. Helping your neighbours
5. Promote equalities, sex/gender/age/nationality in the work place and in general.
6. Promote Peace and Harmony.

I think this is the basic principles to be a good religous person.
Now, if you answer truthfully that you and your teacher did all the above, then, only then I believe what you all saying about Silat and Religion. Other than that? I call it: a Crocodile mouth with cannary ass. Talk is cheap.

Ironic words considering it is YOU , Mas Tristan who have had most to say on this topic,whereas Silat Lincah, whose Master and Silat you publicly disrespected have not responded.

Likewise, this is a discussion forum, its currency is words, what else do you expect.

Lastly, you are attempting to undermine my expression with derogatory comments, but I do not mind.
But believe me my talk is not cheap -each word has been bought at a high price

I think we have both made our opinions clear.

Wasalaam

sulaiman

Kiai Carita

25-Jul-2006, 06:45 PM

....Our models are the Companions of the Holy Prophet , who were trained and refined by their following of his way....

Warm salaams to everyone,

Very well said brother Sulaiman. Why do Muslims like silat and feel that it is their own? Other than the complete identification of the Malays with Islam, I have heard a Tradition which says that our Prophet (s.a.w) recomended silat, swimming, horse-riding, and archery as part of a child's and youth's education. Because of this many a Muslim feels that learning and teaching silat is part of his religious expression in daily life and because of this silat flourishes in the madrasahs all over the Malay world.

In the eyes of the religious thus silat becomes a vehicle rather than a goal.

Silat is a knowledge, and the goal when learning a knowledge should be to master the knowledge. But there is a deeper question, which is WHY do you even want to master that knowledge? There are many different ilmu out there, why choose silat?

I choose silat as a gerak badan because I love it. I am much more supple now compared to when I was 18. Silat makes me calm inside, confident, I feel part of the earth and the sky. Silat is a treasure that I can keep digging into all my life. Silat awakens and sharpens my senses and breathing makes my remembrance of Allah more often, more concentrated. Silat is my culture and having cultural wealth is important to people from the 'Third World' living in the Global Village where money talks and people are out there taking respected names in silat as their own and misrepresenting silat to the international audience. These people are shaming our ancestors and our culture of gerak badan, regressing the higly sophisticated kebatinan to the level of cheap black-magick klenik perdukunan.

Why post in silat internet forums?

Because some of these schools ARE active on the web claiming knowledge about things like magick and kebatinan and auspicious dates like Jum'at Kliwon, some have registered a Batavia style as a registered trademark, and some have claimed to be the Head Guru of a school that still exists in Jakarta, whose Grand Master, Ayah Zakaria just flew back to Jakarta from London last week!

I believe that internet forums are exactly the right place to debate things that are expressed in words like the spirituality of Cimande, for instance. There are people out there claiming to teach Cimande and the spirituality connected to it but actually they know not what they speak about says Haji Mangipin who gets really upset whenever he sees a new page on the website I am refering to. Just a note of warning don't believe everything you read rather take a good look and study for your-self.

Warm salaams to all,

Bram.

Orang Jawa

25-Jul-2006, 07:37 PM

Warm salaams to everyone,

I have heard a Tradition which says that our Prophet (s.a.w) recomended silat, swimming, horse-riding, and archery as part of a child's and youth's education.

That a very interesting Mas Bram, I have not heard that before. Are you saying Silat as a martial arts in general or Silat specifically Malay and Indonesian origin? FYI. Many moons ago Spartan children are send to the booth camp to learn how to be a warrior. A good book on this is "Gates of Fire" An Epic novel of the battle of thermopylae. Is this qualified as child's and youth's education?

Because of this many a Muslim feels that learning and teaching silat is part of his religious expression in daily life and because of this silat flourishes in the madrasahs all over the Malay world.

My two teachers are muslim and have been to Haj several times. I'm a muslim and try my hardness to be one. I still have alot of holes in my daily shalats.
Is this just recently? When I grew up in Indonesia and went to madrasah, no one of my religious teacher mentioned about silat. We studied Quran, hadists, Arabic language, etc. NO MENTION ABOUT SILAT AT ALL.
Mas Bram, you had said your silat teacher is a Catholic, how could he taught you an Islamic religion? I am confused here.

In the eyes of the religious thus silat becomes a vehicle rather than a goal.

I hope that is your opinion, that's not my opinion and my silat teachers opinons. To us, silat is a gerak badan. Silat can enhance your spirituality, it can enhance your religous belief. But silat is not Islam.

Silat is a knowledge, and the goal when learning a knowledge should be to master the knowledge. But there is a deeper question, which is WHY do you even want to master that knowledge? There are many different ilmu out there, why choose silat?

I'm in agreeing with you in general. Knowledge in silat come into two prongs, knows the techniques/movements and knows how to do it and perform it.
The later is the hardest things to master. If you allow me to answer this questions, I'm trying to master the techniques for the love of the arts. I'm practiced and teach Shotokan Karate, Iaijutsu/Aikijutsu, and Silat everyday.
I've been teaching in the last 32 years, I'm not a master, just a student of the arts. In my opinion, silat have more subtle movements and deadly. Anyone who are ever saw me doing Shotokan kata follow by Iaijutsu then my silat from can attest that I do not have a crocodile mouth and cannary ass.

I choose silat as a gerak badan because I love it. I am much more supple now compared to when I was 18. Silat makes me calm inside, confident, I feel part of the earth and the sky. Silat is a treasure that I can keep digging into all my life. Silat awakens and sharpens my senses and breathing makes my remembrance of Allah more often, more concentrated. Silat is my culture and having cultural wealth is important to people from the 'Third World' living in the Global Village where money talks and people are out there taking respected names in silat as their own and misrepresenting silat to the international audience. These people are shaming our ancestors and our culture of gerak badan, regressing the higly sophisticated kebatinan to the level of cheap black-magick klenik perdukunan.

I'M WAITING TO HEAR THIS FOR THE LONGEST TIME, WORD OF WISE, INDEED :) It is much more simple, concise, and easier to digest when one talking about silat this way. I can handle the spirituality in Silat. But that was my opinion, of course.

I believe that internet forums are exactly the right place to debate things that are expressed in words like the spirituality of Cimande, for instance. There are people out there claiming to teach Cimande and the spirituality connected to it but actually they know not what they speak about says Haji Mangipin who gets really upset whenever he sees a new page on the website I am refering to.

To my knowledge, the old Cimande is used to spread the Islamic faith. And all the students must took an oath for that. If the students are being told that their objective is to spread the Islamic belief, and the students accepted it. Than no one can object to it. But when someone try to hide their motives and goal, that when everything will go wrong.

Just a note of warning don't believe everything you read rather take a good look and study for your-self.
Warm salaams to all, Bram

Amen to that or Alhamdullilah!

My worthless opinon,
Tristan

Orang Jawa

25-Jul-2006, 07:55 PM

Sulaiman said: Ironic words considering it is YOU , Mas Tristan who have had most to say on this topic,whereas Silat Lincah, whose Master and Silat you publicly disrespected have not responded.
********************
With all do respect, YOU are the one who preach of doing silat taugh you a good deeds, be a good human being, avoid ego and pride, etc. etc. But when someone disagree with you, you are start hiding and preach religion. Cut the bullcrapt!
As I had said: I have never mention about silat lincah, I had said all silat system that doing this kind of stunt need to reexamine their goal and motives. However, if the shoes fit ,wear it man!

You are upset because I don't agree with your opinion and accusing me of cannot believe the video that you had shown me. YES, I do not believe it. Do you believe the Chinas movie is a real?

First of all, I'm older than you , I have more experience is martial arts, and life experiences in general. It is a custom in Maly and Indonesia to respect the opinon of the elder. Where is your?
I'm going to end this topic, talk is cheaps. Until you can show me the REAL things about you, your teacher and the rest of you so called pendekars. I can't wait.
If you happen to be in my neighbohood, I would love to see you doing your things :)
Finally, I'm agree to disagree with you Sulaiman, take it or leave it.
Foxtrot Yankee!
Tristan

Narrue

26-Jul-2006, 01:07 AM

Why do Muslims like silat and feel that it is their own? Other than the complete identification of the Malays with Islam, I have heard a Tradition which says that our Prophet (s.a.w) recomended silat, swimming, horse-riding, and archery as part of a child's and youth's education

Usually when people recommend something to another it is from personal experience, how can you recommend something you have never done or seen. Since the Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W) recommends Silat then he must have knowledge of it or at least seen it, perhaps even practiced it.

What does the martial arts and weapons in the birth place of Muhammad look like? Does the martial art resemble Silat and are there any blades there which resemble keris? because if you’re going to introduce both to Indonesia then where are you brining it from :confused:

Kiai Carita

26-Jul-2006, 09:42 AM

Narrue

26-Jul-2006, 10:18 AM

I have difficulty in believing this, where did Muhammad observe Silat for example and if it was thought to be so important then why it is not mentioned in the Quran?

Pekir

26-Jul-2006, 01:18 PM

I have difficulty in believing this, where did Muhammad observe Silat for example and if it was thought to be so important then why it is not mentioned in the Quran?

I've read quite a lot about the legendary Wali Songo who are assumed to be the main and first people to have spread the Islamic faith in the Indonesian archipelo. Either you consider silat (in it's oldest form) to be not older than about 500 years or you can not consider Silat a predominantly Islam thing. The activities of the Wali Songo are supposed to have started around the 15th century if I'm correct, quite a few centuries after the profet was around.

Either way silat will have been influenced by the Islam faith for at least 500 years, that unavoidable I would say. So is it strange that you'll see the use of arabic weapons next to Hindu weapons? Is it strange that certain, maybe/probably even the majority of the guru2, have incorporated their religious beliefs over the centuries. Likewise there are older aspects of pre-islam faith that are still present in the Indonesian culture and therefore it's Islamic faith that are not found in other parts of the Islamic world, like animism and kebatinan. Aren't there Islam purist (Christian purist alike) who will strongly disapprove of certain Indonesian cultural aspects that have their roots in ancient animism and kebatinan. They will probably not recognize these as part of their religion.

Pekir

Narrue

26-Jul-2006, 02:19 PM

I would have thought that Slat is much older then 500 years old and therefore pre date the arrival of the Wali in Indonesia. To my knowledge none of the Wali were martial artists so they could not have introduced silat into Indonesia.
The Wali were spiritual teachers and also knowledgeable in Alchemy.
I have no problem conceiving that they did introduce spiritual teachings and even internal arts as they were clearly qualified to do so. Having said that I would have imagined that such internal arts would have been present with the Indonesian long before the Wali set foot in Indonesia, the Indian teachings would have seen to that.
Whilst the Wali may have tolerated and allowed Silat to continue I don’t think it has anything to do with the Wali or Islam in terms of origin.
What do the Hindu population of Indonesia have to say about this, do they also credit Silat as a Muslim invention?

In terms of Silat the only connection I have ever heard of the wali and silat are the wali Suci of Java however I don’t know much about them.

Rebo Paing

26-Jul-2006, 07:27 PM

I believe Kiai Carita was using the term 'silat' as a generic term meaning 'martial arts' or 'fighting arts' as it is often used in Indonesia, irrespective of where it came from.

(In my village in the old days, if someone was describing a martial art he'd seen, he'd have described it a 'silat' whether or not it was actually Pencak Silat. I still lump them all together as silat when I'm talking about martial arts too :D ).

e.g Silate wong Cino, silate wong Jowo, silate wong Nippon, silate wong Londo, silate wong Amrika (which would also be silate wong Londo :D ), silate wong India, wong Arab, etc. etc. etc

Salam

P.S. I think the Wali would probably have had no problems at all with silat and not merely 'tolerated' it! Sunan Kalijaga was a pesilat to my knowledge.

Kiai Carita

26-Jul-2006, 07:33 PM

I have difficulty in believing this, where did Muhammad observe Silat for example and if it was thought to be so important then why it is not mentioned in the Quran?

Narrue,

The Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w) fought in battles using stones, arrows, spears and swords since he was a child. It might have not been silat like you understand silat now ( a Malay martial art) but it was an art, and it was martial and thus, in the Indonesian language it can be called silat. And war especially fighting with swords is mentioned in the Qur'an.

If you think that amongst the Waliullah in Jawa were no martial artists then you have your information incomplete. Sunan Bonang, Sunan Kalijaga, Sunan Giri Prapen, and others were martial artists. Sunan Gunung Jati in Cirebon has left us hundreds of debus equipment in the Kraton Kasepuhan in Cirebon.

Where did you learn that the Wali were alchemists? As far as I know I am the only writer to ever put forth that hypotheses.

Warm salaams to all,

Bram

Orang Jawa

26-Jul-2006, 07:53 PM

Salam hormat, Kakang Mas Tristan,
Sorry for confusing you when I say my teacher is Roman Catholic but learning silat has brought me closer to Islam. That is the truth. My gerak badan is taught as an ilmu gerak badan. Religion and spirituality is up to the student, our teacher teaches silat, gerak badan.

Hormat kembali Mas Bram :)
I think we are at the same pace then :) This is exactly what I'm trying to say.
I applauded your teacher for doing that. That's what I'm believe and that's the different between the teacher forcing students to learn Islam, spirituality and Ilmu gerak badan.

However in my experience of doing this gerak badan and olah nafas I found that I became brought closer and closer to Islam particularly
in the gerak-badan parts of Islam: shalat (fardu and sunnah) which suddenly began to open oceans of meaning for me. Meanings which I had no experience of prior to intensively practising the gerak badan taught to me. In daily life silat makes it easy to smile and make other people happy because I feel confident and happy in my body.

I agree again, that's two on the row here :)
The way of Silat is spiritual. Spirituality can enhance your religous believe. But spirituality is not a specific religion. I think if we should separate our religious believe while practice, so we are not offending others who happen to be a non muslim students.

Mas Tristan, you remember surviving an ambush alone and you say it is luck? Well I would say that you have prayers and tenaga dalam that protect you. The proof? You survived an ambush when all your comrades perished!

Yes or No, it depends...
In general scheeme of things, I was a lucky bastard!
Spiritualy, my Higher Power is not ready to meet me. Or he was protecting me.
Religously: Its not my time, God have given me another a chance to ammend my self, or God must have a reason to keep me alive.
The truth was, I do not remember if I was praying nor thinking about God during that faithfull day.
Thanks Bram,
Tristan

Wali

26-Jul-2006, 10:30 PM

Sunan Kalijaga was a pesilat to my knowledge.
Astan Sunan Kalijaga was indeed a high level silat master....

Narrue

26-Jul-2006, 10:48 PM

Narrue, Where did you learn that the Wali were alchemists? As far as I know I am the only writer to ever put forth that hypotheses

I guess I must have picked it up from you then :) and I have no problem in accepting it, in those times it was common to study alchemy even in the west it was popular. Sir Isaac Newton is well known as a Scientist but few know that he spent more time studying alchemy then what we now call Science.

Narrue

27-Jul-2006, 12:58 AM

P.S. I think the Wali would probably have had no problems at all with silat and not merely 'tolerated' it! Sunan Kalijaga was a pesilat to my knowledge.

I couldn’t find any information confirming that Sunan Kalijaga was a Silat practitioner but its interesting that he was of royal Indian Majapahit lineage and that the spiritual teachings given to him were of Indian origin.

“According to legend Sunan Kalijaga was the offspring of royalty from Indic Majapahit……..His conversion by Sunan Bonan, involved spiritual asceticism of an Indic sort and thus suggested completion rather than denial of the qualities of spirituality prioritized already in earlier Indic Java.” The Inner Islamization of Java by Paul Stange

Kiai Carita

27-Jul-2006, 09:36 AM

Astan Sunan Kalijaga was indeed a high level silat master....

Salam hormat everyone,

Wali, I think you are refering to a perguruan called Asta Sunan Kalijaga and Asta is high Sundanese / Jawanese for hand. So the school where Steve studied under pak Makmur (?) is meant to have lineage to Sunan Kalijaga.

Sunan Kalijaga in his youth was Raden Mas Said, a Prince from the port-kingdom of Tuban which was part of Majapahit. In his youth he was like Robin Hood, robbing the rich to give to the poor. One day he attempted to rob Sunan Bonang who was walking in the jungle path with a bejeweled walking stick. RM Said wanted the gold on the stick but instead, Sunan Bonang offered him the power to transform a whole aren (arena pinnata -sugar palm) tree into gold. RM Said asked to become a student and Sunan Bonang told him to sit and wait, by a river (kali).

Over the years moss grew over RM Said and people began to call him Kalijaga (kali - river, jaga - guard) ... Years later Sunan Bonang remembered him and came to check him out. Bonang gave RM Said a Qur'an and asked him to read it. However RM Said could not read Arabic. Instead he used his powers to make Sunan Bonang's Qur'an read loudly itself (those days there were no audio books yet) . Bonang then said that Kalijaga had surpassed his ilmu. Sunan Kalijaga went on to be the most beloved Wali in Jawa.

Although he was undoubtedly a martial artist he is more remembered by his poems and songs which are still sung to this day. He also designed several dhapur of keris, like the 13 luk Sengkelat. He made wayang kulit suitable for large audiences and also designed the pendopo as the front of the Jawa home.

Kalijaga's times were interesting times in Jawa. Admiral Cheng Ho's armada was sailing the globe with a Jawa jurnalist and Chinese traders built a town called Lao Sam (Lasem) near Tuban. This was a time when Chinese influence was warmly welcomed and eagerly sought for in Jawa. The king in Islamic kingdom Demak, Raden Patah was of Chinese descent and his name when young was Jin Bun. Sunan Bon Ang was Chinese as well, as were probably many other Wali.

These were the times when people in Jawa began to look to the Islamic world rather than the Hindu world. It might be from these timies that you get Persian wrestling and stuff like it brought into silat. Just my imaginings.

Warm salaams to all,
Bram

Jawara

28-Jul-2006, 12:30 PM

Salaam Hormat,

Pak Kiai Carita, could you please tell us more about Haji Mangipin? Also Mas Tristan please tell us something about your Cimande training if you will.

Terima Kasih,
Jawara

Orang Jawa

28-Jul-2006, 12:58 PM

Wali

28-Jul-2006, 02:12 PM

Salam Jawara,
I'm sorry to disappointed you, I'm learning silat from the Old Magazine.
Tristan
I've heard the Old Magazine mentioned several times now.

What exactly is it?

Orang Jawa

28-Jul-2006, 04:36 PM

I've heard the Old Magazine mentioned several times now.

What exactly is it?

What it meants is that my silat styles is insignificant, is generic or not asli, probably not even for the warriors mind, just an old family system. :)
Whom I studied with? My guru is not well known and his guru is not well known. I'm the only one teach this kind of generic silat to the outsider. Limited participants by all means :) I only have 5 students in Silat in the past 32 years and I'm not looking for a new student either.
Therefore, I'm not going to jump in very common practice in the West and recently in Asia by promoting the "deadliest martial arts system" or something like that :). I still believe with my motto. "In martial arts is not how much you do know, but how much you can do with what you did know." Regardless where you come from, whom you study with and what system martial arts you studied. Bottom lines is coming back at you, can you do it and perform it? Are you trully represent your teacher or your teacher system? Remember student is reflection of his/her teacher.
I'm a member and founder of Padi Tribe if that significant enough :)
Tristan
Pendekar Tidak Berarti.

Wali

28-Jul-2006, 04:48 PM

What it meants is that my silat styles is insignificant, is generic or not asli, probably not even for the warriors mind, just an old family system. :)
Whom I studied with? My guru is not well known and his guru is not well known. I'm the only one teach this kind of generic silat to the outsider. Limited participants by all means :) I only have 5 students in Silat in the past 32 years and I'm not looking for a new student either.
Therefore, I'm not going to jump in very common practice in the West and recently in Asia by promoting the "deadliest martial arts system" or something like that :). I still believe with my motto. "In martial arts is not how much you do know, but how much you can do with what you did know." Regardless where you come from, whom you study with and what system martial arts you studied. Bottom lines is coming back at you, can you do it and perform it? Are you trully represent your teacher or your teacher system? Remember student is reflection of his/her teacher.
I'm a member and founder of Padi Tribe if that significant enough :)
Tristan
Pendekar Tidak Berarti.
OK! I thought it was some sort of 70's silat magazine!!!! Literally!

Narrue

28-Jul-2006, 04:59 PM

OK! I thought it was some sort of 70's silat magazine!!!! Literally!

I thought the same, I had images of Tristan blowing the dust of his old magazines and eagerly digesting their content :D

Wali

28-Jul-2006, 05:15 PM

I thought the same, I had images of Tristan blowing the dust of his old magazines and eagerly digesting their content :D
Are we still talking silat? :p

Narrue

28-Jul-2006, 05:31 PM

Are we still talking silat? :p

Haha...Yes I was talking about Silat magazines :D

Orang Jawa

28-Jul-2006, 06:01 PM

OK! I thought it was some sort of 70's silat magazine!!!! Literally!

LOL, figuratively speaking, it was 1969 silat magazine, page 3 and still in paragraph one. :)
Tristan

Orang Jawa

28-Jul-2006, 06:03 PM

I thought the same, I had images of Tristan blowing the dust of his old magazines and eagerly digesting their content :D

It was an angle dust mind you :)
Tristan

Jawara

29-Jul-2006, 01:40 AM

Salaam Hormat,

Actually Mas Tristan, I too am a card carrying member of the Padi Tribe! That is why I asked you the question about Cimande. I know that when a particular style is mentioned all of the Empty-Barrels-That-Make-Loud-Noises will jump to say how great and profound they are, maybe that they are even better than Indonesians (after all what could an Indonesian possibly know about Silat!?!?!?) :bang:

Guess I'll have to wait for Pak Kiai to tell us about Haji Mangipin or until my next foray to Sunda land.

Cheers,
Jawara

Wali

29-Jul-2006, 01:49 PM

will jump to say how great and profound they are, maybe that they are even better than Indonesians (after all what could an Indonesian possibly know about Silat!?!?!?) :bang:

Hi Jawara,

This statement sounds a little arrogant, and assumes that Indonesians HAVE to be the best silat players. This is not always necessarily the case.

Orang Jawa

29-Jul-2006, 03:14 PM

Hi Jawara,

This statement sounds a little arrogant, and assumes that Indonesians HAVE to be the best silat players. This is not always necessarily the case.

Salam Wali,
I don't think Jawara is making an arrogant statement. Remember he is the carrying card member of the Padi Tribe :) I don't even know the real name Jawara but I believe what he said, that's good enough for me :)
The Padi Tribe will always discourage any of our members to be arrogant and boister especially in silat. We all very beginer in Silat.
We KNOW silat it doesn't means We are the BEST in silat...not for the long shot!:)
In August I have 10 instructors representing 10 different style of Indonesian Silat systems and 7 instructors from Aikido, Karate, Iaijutsu, Muaythai, TKD, Taichi, Garote will gather in my backyards. We are just get together in the in gentle and friendly atmosphere and having a ball, friendly exchange and drinks....All of the Instructors have been 30-52 years in the martial arts, so they are not the wannabe by any means :)
So if you and Steve Benitez happen to be in the neigbohood, please feel free to drop by....:)
Warm regards,
Tristan

Wali

29-Jul-2006, 03:35 PM

Hey Tristan,

I think it was slightly (most probably unintentionaly), but different strokes for different folks, as they say! :)

I don't see how a nationality in anything, will make a person better at any particular activity. The English invented football, yet they have to win anything significant since 1966 (and boy DO THEY LIKE TO REMIND US!!! :p ), etc...

I see it the way I have seen you describe it in other posts, it is the individual, rather than the style, and in this case, the nationality.

During several trips to Indonesia, I have seen a change whereby the Indonesians are turning their back on traditional silat, and want to be more western. Likewise, people in the West, wanna be more like the people in the East, etc,etc...

This is why Oriental musicians like Vanessa Mae lead the way in Violin music, putting most of the European counterparts to shame.

That was my point. If we are talking sheer numbers, then yes, as there are millions of Indonesians doing the art, but in terms of skill level, it is really down to the individual.

My 2 cents!

Peace

Jawara

29-Jul-2006, 03:37 PM

Wali

29-Jul-2006, 03:44 PM

Salaam to All,

Sorry if you were rubbed the wrong way by my post Mas Wali. I suppose it was a bit flip. It appears theres one group in particular that seems to think they figured out Cimande "better" than the Sundanese and its laughable to me :D I have a lot of respect for Steve Benitez and his school, by the way.

Again I tip my songkok to Mas Tristan and I wish you the best of luck for your gathering next month. When I got into the martial arts in the 1970's the atmosphere was quite different than now. Everyone seemed to have respect for one another and if you came across a guy who did a different art, than you received him with interest, friendship and brotherhood. Nowadays since the ultimate fighting challenges its all about 'my style is BETTER than yours'. so pathetic.

Peace Brothers,
Jawara
Hi Jawara,

No offence taken my friend! :)

I totally understand where you are coming from, and can empathise with why you would say that, but I just wanted to present the other side also. It seems i was rather flipant with my dry reply, so my apologies for that.

The silat community is already a big mess, and we certainly don't need more aggro on the web!

Looking forward to your contributions here, and good to make your aquaintance.

Kiai Carita

29-Jul-2006, 04:10 PM

Salaam Hormat,

Pak Kiai Carita, could you please tell us more about Haji Mangipin? Also Mas Tristan please tell us something about your Cimande training if you will.

Terima Kasih,
Jawara

Warm salaams to all,

And to Jawara, to answer your question, Haji Mangipin (real name Haji Ariffin) is a young (in his 40s) pesilat from Cimande who is currently travelling up and down Britain, teaching silat and healing people. Sometimes he drops by my place in London where he spends a few days a week.

He is 'old school' Cimande and does everything with spreading Islam in his mind. He now has an assistant, an old-timer silat man from London called Abdurrahman, who holds the (twice a week, I think) silat class in the Naqshbandi mosque in Seven Sisters.

One thing Haji Mangipin gets real wound up about is a Californian Cimande's Pendekar's ceritificate at http://www.cimande.com/writings/papers/cimande_more.htm where he feels there has been blasphemy done to his religion, because of the misquoting of the Islamic salaam beside the Arabic calligraphy. The salaam is one of the most basic sentences in traditional Islam and the fact that it is misquoted in this important document is to Haji Mangipin a red flag to a bull. But the salaam is not the only missrepresentation on this certificate.

Going through the above-mentioned website there were more and more things that got the young Haji upset. However to be fair I must say that the videos of the Pendekar did make the Haji laugh.

Warm salaams to all,

Bram.

Orang Jawa

29-Jul-2006, 04:36 PM

Hey Tristan,

Hey Wali, wassss up ;)

I think it was slightly (most probably unintentionaly), but different strokes for different folks, as they say! :)

I agree bro!

I don't see how a nationality in anything, will make a person better at any particular activity. The English invented football, yet they have to win anything significant since 1966 (and boy DO THEY LIKE TO REMIND US!!! :p ), etc...

That's true indeed. Just like Basketball, when USA team got beat in the Olympic, its hurts indeed! :love:

I see it the way I have seen you describe it in other posts, it is the individual, rather than the style, and in this case, the nationality.

I second that bro! Opps I can't second my opinion? In that case I'm agree with you. :rolleyes:

During several trips to Indonesia, I have seen a change whereby the Indonesians are turning their back on traditional silat, and want to be more western. Likewise, people in the West, wanna be more like the people in the East, etc,etc...

Again I agree, hotdamn! I've became a yes man here :)
I think the problem began when the Westerner show much interest in silat, and with agood intention come to Indonesia. Some of them for some reason and another was mislead by the sponsor or themselves promote something that is not there. Yes both side can take the blamed for this.

This is why Oriental musicians like Vanessa Mae lead the way in Violin music, putting most of the European counterparts to shame.

If you happen to be in Berkley, John Hopkin, Harvard..most of the science students are Oriental...It must be the noodles they ate :)

That was my point. If we are talking sheer numbers, then yes, as there are millions of Indonesians doing the art, but in terms of skill level, it is really down to the individual.
My 2 cents!

Got you bro, I agree with all the above....
Have you ever heard of Dr. Phil Davies? He is one of the respectable silat player in London.
Got to go...I'm going to the Blues Festival....Heeep Horray!
Peace and Be Well,
Tristan

Silk Road

29-Jul-2006, 04:39 PM

Salaams to Wali, Jawara, Pak Kiai, Mas Tristan,

Wali, I certainly understand your statement but I don't think the silat community is really such a big mess in perspective. There are many groups who quietly go about their business and have no desire to fuss with other groups (like Mas Tristan, for example) and there are other groups who seem to be based on respect and tradition and are active in spreading their teachings without much self aggrandizing fanfare (like East West Studios and other perguruan on this board, for example). Its just that the BETTER, DEADLIER, SUPERIOR psuedo silat crowd to happens to be a very vocal minority who gets all the press and its a poor reflection on all of us.

Let them rant let them rave. I'd rather make friends!

Salaam,
Silkroad

Wali

29-Jul-2006, 04:54 PM

Let them rant let them rave. I'd rather make friends!

Salaam,
Silkroad
Well said!

I know that historically, the "beef" has been between 2 specific schools, and I have always stayed out of their discussions, and always will, as I am neither in a position or pre-disposition to do so.

The fact that "silat" in itself is such a complex and deep "thing" (religious elemenets, cultural elements, the many hundreds of systems, the spiritual elements, etc...) only adds to the levels and layers on which we can debate, argue or agree.

Ultimately, as long as we all respect each other, be tolerant to the views we each hold, and not try and take a stake or hold over something that God has given to ALL, it is ok to debate and discuss.

Peace.

sulaiman

31-Jul-2006, 06:05 PM

Salaams Mas Tristan,

[********************
With all do respect, YOU are the one who preach of doing silat taugh you a good deeds, be a good human being, avoid ego and pride, etc. etc. But when someone disagree with you, you are start hiding and preach religion.

No hiding here my friend - I stand by my statement that the body and the soul are joined until death and that until that day any physical action has an accompanying spiritual reality - if you would like to prove me wrong and demonstrate that silat is only physical then invite me to your funeral and we see how much silat your body does then ¿

Cut the bullcrapt!
As I had said: I have never mention about silat lincah, I had said all silat system that doing this kind of stunt need to reexamine their goal and motives. However, if the shoes fit ,wear it man!

No - you did mention silat lincah , its just that you didnt know anything about them and began to critisize what you do not understand.

You are upset because I don't agree with your opinion and accusing me of cannot believe the video that you had shown me. YES, I do not believe it. Do you believe the Chinas movie is a real?

Im not upset about you not believing what you saw , I am upset about your lack of respect for your brothers in silat.

First of all, I'm older than you , I have more experience is martial arts, and life experiences in general. It is a custom in Maly and Indonesia to respect the opinon of the elder. Where is your?

Firstly I always address you as Mas , this is a sign of respect.

Secondly I always attempt to convey my points in a neutral and objective way, avoiding emotive expressions such as crap, ******** , f. you etc ,which can annoy many people and are more condusive to arguing than discussing.

Thirdly I have avoided responding to the personal insults that you have put in your posts, and have never questioned your authority to discourse on silat or religion.

All in all these for me are signs of respect, so you cannot fault me on my adab.

If however you take respect to mean agreeing with you when I dont, saying Yes , very well said Mas , to statements that I find ignorant , prejudiced and ridiculous , then no, you will not find that in my posts - that is not respect , it is ass kissing and we do not do it.

I'm going to end this topic, talk is cheaps. Until you can show me the REAL things about you, your teacher and the rest of you so called pendekars. I can't wait.
If you happen to be in my neighbohood, I would love to see you doing your things :)

I never call myself or my master Pendekar , it is not our way to give ourselves grand titles or honours.
You have no knowledge about me or my master but have jumped to some pretty major conclusions - it doesnt matter - we are not trying to be anyone or anything -

Finally, I'm agree to disagree with you Sulaiman, take it or leave it.
Foxtrot Yankee!

Foxtrot yankee - forgive you ? I do indeed my brother
May Allah increase us in knowledge and understanding, bless you and forgive me

Adios Amigos

Pekir

31-Jul-2006, 06:16 PM

Narrue,

Where did you learn that the Wali were alchemists? As far as I know I am the only writer to ever put forth that hypotheses.

Warm salaams to all,

Bram

Bram,

It's always hard to stay out of symantics while in a discussion but isn't alchemy for the general population very closely related to many of the mystics and supernatural. In all the stories I've read and heard about them, besides their islamic teachings and meaning for present Indonesia, their mysticism and supernatural powers are described.

Pekir

Kiai Carita

31-Jul-2006, 08:20 PM

Bram,

It's always hard to stay out of symantics while in a discussion but isn't alchemy for the general population very closely related to many of the mystics and supernatural. In all the stories I've read and heard about them, besides their islamic teachings and meaning for present Indonesia, their mysticism and supernatural powers are described.

Pekir

Pekir, maye some wali are famous for their mystical skills nota all. But some were in the business of gold production, namely Sunan Bon Ang then Kalijaga learned the knowledge.

Warm salams to all,
Bram

Kiai Carita

01-Aug-2006, 09:53 AM

..
Have you ever heard of Dr. Phil Davies? He is one of the respectable silat player in London....

Tristan

Thanks for that contact Mas Tristan, I emailed the Dr but no response yet.

Salam hormat,
Bram

Pekir

02-Aug-2006, 04:12 PM

Pekir, maye some wali are famous for their mystical skills nota all. But some were in the business of gold production, namely Sunan Bon Ang then Kalijaga learned the knowledge.

Warm salams to all,
Bram

Bram,

That might be very true, besides reading about the phenomena of the Wali Songo in general I more or less concentrated on Sunan Gunungjati/Ceribon. So I shouldn't and won't claim specialized knowledge on each of them.

Pekir

Orang Jawa

02-Aug-2006, 08:03 PM

Thanks for that contact Mas Tristan, I emailed the Dr but no response yet.

Salam hormat,
Bram

Kembali Salam hormat Bram,
I think Dr. Phil currently in Canada visiting his teacher. He have been very busy travelling lately and finishing his manuscript for his book, probably it will take a while before he responding to you.

And for Dik Sulaiman,
I was hoping that we close the topic by saying agree to disagree. But yet you are keep coming back with a pot shots. :confused:
I do not know how it is in Malaysia. But in the West, when you are presenting something/thesis. it is your responsiblity to depend your thesis with facts and with reference of books/films/video/magazine in which your thesise have been introduced or promoted. Otherwise your crenditial and credibility are in questions. You can't tell your audience by saying :"trust me on this" ;) There always be a Pro and Contra of your thesis. And it is not being disrespectfull by asking the presenter of the facts. :bang:

As I had said several times, I have never single out Silat Lincah, and you are accusing me of discussing silat lincah..Well my friend, show me the fact!

Not agreeing with your stories about you, Guru Omar, and your guru are not being disrespectful. Just in my opinon are not believable, no punt intended :bang:

When I see it then I believe it, I meant that literally and figuratively speaking :)

Have you ever see the show called "Criss Angel" Mind Freaks show?
If you think Guru Omar video showing his students jumping from 3 stories building was incredible, I'm wondering what you are going to say about Criss Angel? God? :rolleyes:

Mind is terrible thing to waste my friend :p
Peace and Be Well,
Tristan

Kiai Carita

03-Aug-2006, 10:09 AM

Kembali Salam hormat Bram,
I think Dr. Phil currently in Canada visiting his teacher. He have been very busy travelling lately and finishing his manuscript for his book, probably it will take a while before he responding to you.
.....
Peace and Be Well,
Tristan

Salam hormat, Mas Tristan,

Wah, I must be lucky, just got an email from Dr Phil who says he will be here for a Sunday in Camden sometime later this month! Thank you very much again for the contact and suggestion.

Salam hormat, Sulaiman - Cekgu Ariffin was with us last two Sundays in a row! We want to do a barbeque when you come to celebrate silat and eat sate! It would be great if it coincides with the time Dr Phil will be in Camden.

Warm salaams to all,
Bram

tok_dukun

04-Aug-2006, 05:53 PM

Peace to all of you
hi. I am only a video dukun hehe so don't ask me about magic trick or sorcery...

I want to comment about the video.

1 Malacca lost to Portugal in 1511 in a war. Malaysia got its independence 49 years ago through negotiation. Nuff said.

2 Mahaguru (grandmaster) Omar Din's son now is the secretary of Persaka.

3 I study silat (mainly Silat Seni Gayong) because I want to have extra activity but I love the philosophy, friends and my gurus. I hate the bickering among my gurus and the politics involve though...

Another video from Lincah is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5mtd_PCjao
They won in martial arts demonstration competition in South Korea.

Rebo Paing

04-Aug-2006, 06:38 PM

Rahayu Tok Dukun,
Nice demonstration :)

I was in Malaysia in 1983 for a while. I stayed in Penang & Butterworth mostly and enjoyed it very much.

Salam
Krisno

Orang Jawa

06-Aug-2006, 09:39 PM

Tok Dukun said:
Another video from Lincah is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5mtd_PCjao
They won in martial arts demonstration competition in South Korea.
******************
Salam Dukun,
I knew you meant well. However, as martial arts competitors and judge. I would like to know. What competition they won with this demo?

First of all, they were many types of tournament. Don't get up to tight with the names: People can call their tournament World Martial Arts Tournaments. And maybe only 5 schools attended or 5 of his students from differents countries. Since the tournament is not regulated. We have so many world champion outthere.
So name of the country can be deceiving too.

Secondly, what division they competed? In this division they will be class or rank requeirement and age on each class. For examples: In Kata or forum there will be black belt or equavalent, Brown belt, Green and white belt division. Some of the would divided by ages, by kata origins: traditional kata, and musical kata.

In freefighting (Kumite) not only they divided in their ranks and age. Usually in the higher division ie: Black belt division also divided by their weights. Heavy, middle, and light weight. The Grand champion of the free fighting is the winner of round robin between the champion of heavy weight, middleweight and light weight.

In Self-defense, is usually only one divison.

Weapons is usually have two divisions, Black and Brown belt divisions.

Sometimes in the division, very often lately. not enough competitors. Two or three competitors. This competitors automatically becomes first place, second and third places champion...is that fair? Not at all, but thats the fact jack! This competitor eventually will singing and dancing and prounounced their winning..:)

But again it was then, I'm no longer a judge or avid competitor, I'm old, grumpier with age, and can't handle politic that well.

No disrespect intended, just want to knows the fact.
Remember, half truth is half lie :)
Tristan

tok_dukun

07-Aug-2006, 09:39 AM

hi
You know I don't know the answers. I just read from newspaper and magazine that they won. The runner-up is capoeria (Don't ask me if this team is official Brazil's team or just a small club because I don't know either).That's all. Hey actually they should won because they are using PERSAKA's fund.... Is it true PERSILAT don't allow traditional music silat anymore in most silat arts competition. Many old silat gurus complain about this...

sulaiman

07-Aug-2006, 04:32 PM

[QUOTE=Orang Jawa]And for Dik Sulaiman,
I was hoping that we close the topic by saying agree to disagree. But yet you are keep coming back with a pot shots. :confused:
I do not know how it is in Malaysia. But in the West, when you are presenting something/thesis. it is your responsiblity to depend your thesis with facts and with reference of books/films/video/magazine in which your thesise have been introduced or promoted. Otherwise your crenditial and credibility are in questions. You can't tell your audience by saying :"trust me on this" ;) There always be a Pro and Contra of your thesis. And it is not being disrespectfull by asking the presenter of the facts. :bang:

Salaams Mas Tristan ,
As this discussion was started by a reference to a film showing Silat Lincah , I am guessing you mean I need to prove my thesis with a different kind of film reference ?

As far as I remember I never said " trust me me on this " all I said was dont jump to conclusions before investigating, and if you want to find out more - I can give you personal contacts , as I said Silat Lincah is very well known in Malaysia.

Far from being pot shots , my posts are attempting to address what I see as a degeneration of traditional silat values as they are translated from one culture to another.

To elaborate , I am writing at length about this issue as I feel it epitomises a trend in modern western silat culture to down play , eliminate or make into " magik / occult , the traditional spiritual roots of Malay Silat.

It is my opinion that as it is introduced to the western culture, , Silat is undergoing a process of secularisation , where the spiritually integrative content that you find with the traditional Guru in Malay culture is being seperated and disgarded to make it more appealing for a western materialist culture , where Religion is a seperate box in ones life and does not enter into working , social or political relations.

God is kept in the church.

This is completely different to traditional spiritual teachings.

God willing I will post some extracts from our forthcoming book on the concept of Silat as a Noble art , or Pusaka Malayu and explain how the concept of spiritual as well as physical training was and still is integral to traditional Silat Melayu as a complete cultural vehicle.

Adios,

Mas Bram ,

Will see you soon ,InshaAllah, Will try and pop over with Cikgu Ariffin and some Silat Gendang. Until then .. :Angel:

wasalaam

Sulaiman

Wali

07-Aug-2006, 04:57 PM

all I said was dont jump to conclusions

Pun intended? ;)

tok_dukun

08-Aug-2006, 02:56 AM

hi
I like to say sorry if I offended anybody. I read yesterday's newspaper that Silat Lincah asked for Malaysian Government because they want to send 20,000 of their pesilat to Lebanon to help out. I don't think the goverment will let them go unless it is for helping giving food and first aid. They should join Aman Malaysia or Red Crescent for that..

Pekir

08-Aug-2006, 05:43 PM

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It is my opinion that as it is introduced to the western culture, , Silat is undergoing a process of secularisation , where the spiritually integrative content that you find with the traditional Guru in Malay culture is being seperated and disgarded to make it more appealing for a western materialist culture , where Religion is a seperate box in ones life and does not enter into working , social or political relations.

God is kept in the church.

This is completely different to traditional spiritual teachings.

Sulaiman,

I guess you are right when you say that a big part of the western society is undergoing secularisation. In my country it started around the sixties of the previous century. In the Netherlands secularisation has lead to the demish of the roman catholic churches e.g. This effects a lot of things in our daily life. It didn't only change our religious expercience but also our morals and tolerance. Not in every case for the best but that's my personal view. But is it automatically bad for an individuals perspective on spirituality, sincerity, respect and moral? I don't think so. I consider myself for example spiritual but not in a pure Roman catholic sense that I grew up with. I rather try to be a good human being, by respecting and caring for my fellow men.

In relation to silat and religion I think that one should ask the question if the islamic belief is really the original religion connected to silat anyways. Silat is as far as I know older than the Islamic faith in present Indonesia. So four to five hundred years ago there was a gradual turn around from the mainly Hindu believe to the Islamic believe in society and silat. I guess I want to say that major changes have happened before and will probably keep happening in the future. Isn't it more important that teachers/guru not only teach the physical, tenaga dalam etc. but also emphasize good morals, sincerity and respect which are not neccesarily connected to a certain religion.

I do believe though that the globalization of silat has besides positive aspects a lot negative effects but these are not connected to religion but to popularisation, commercialisation and lack of historic sense. This 'mass consumption' of the art has changed (some) of the western and Malay/Indonesian arts and teachers alike. I think making big money and becoming as big an organisation as possible is a bigger problem for the art than religion will ever be.

Pekir

sulaiman

09-Aug-2006, 03:06 PM

Salaams Pekir,

I agree with you that commercialisation is a big threat to traditional silat in the western context.
Lots of teachers will drop the spiritual or moral side as they believe it will put students off.
Instead they encourage sport and competitions which they think will attract students.
To me the reverse is true - I do not want sport- competition minded people in my class.

To come back to your point about Silat predating Islam , as I said in an earlier post , muslims do not see it like this.

Islam signifies the religion that came with Adam , Abraham ,Buddah, Moses and Jesus.

True that the practise of silat predates the historical _physical appearance of the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings upon him ) but he came as the Seal of Prophets not as the originator.

I hope to post more about this soon , as it is apparent from this and other forums that even muslims are confused about the relation between silat and Islam.

adios

Pekir

10-Aug-2006, 05:19 PM

Sulaiman,

Commercialisation I believe is not only a western thing, the expression may be different, off course not all but there obviously asian schools that are pretty commercial too.

I'm not saying that silat has no religious component, I only tried to state that it is not a Islamic fighting art. I do believe that much of our sense of moral attitude, respect and so on have their respective foundation in religion or faith for that matter.

I also have no doubts that silat in most originating countries has for the greater part strong relations with the Islamic faith. In my view this is unavoidable since is has been the dominant religion for hundreds of years.

sampai bertemu lagi

tellner

10-Aug-2006, 06:31 PM

Pekir

10-Aug-2006, 10:09 PM

Silat is a strictly Islamic fighting art? That is going to come as a surprise to a lot of Hindu Balinese. Of course, I've heard some people try to claim that football (the real stuff, not the American version) is Sunnah :)

Well I suppose the English invented football but that has lost it's meaning since the Dutch showed them the true beauty of the game :)

Pekir :D

Wali

10-Aug-2006, 10:17 PM

Well I suppose the English invented football but that has lost it's meaning since the Dutch showed them the true beauty of the game :)

Pekir :D

I would think that Brazil and Argentina were better teachers... :p

tellner

11-Aug-2006, 05:06 AM

The British were the first ones to turn watching football into a martial art :p

Pekir

11-Aug-2006, 03:18 PM

OK guys forgive my chauvenistic ignorance :D

sulaiman

11-Aug-2006, 05:25 PM

Salaams Pekir,

[QUOTE=Pekir]

Commercialisation I believe is not only a western thing, the expression may be different, off course not all but there obviously asian schools that are pretty commercial too.

I agree , All too many Im afraid.
I still have nightmares about one night a serious silat troupe showed up at our gelanggang in the jungle and proceeded to change into rayon tiger skin outfits and perform bunga to " eye of the tiger ".

ciao

mojo shorin-ryu

11-Aug-2006, 05:40 PM

i seriously wanted one of those guys to fall wrong and get stuck with a big peice of glass in their back...not that im corrupt or anything

Gajah Silat

11-Aug-2006, 07:27 PM

Salaams Pekir,
I agree , All too many Im afraid.
I still have nightmares about one night a serious silat troupe showed up at our gelanggang in the jungle and proceeded to change into rayon tiger skin outfits and perform bunga to " eye of the tiger ".

ciao

:D That's the best 'contender' for Wali's light relief thread yet :D

Mind you, after seeing some of the outfits at Seni this year.............

Orang Jawa

12-Aug-2006, 02:05 PM

:D That's the best 'contender' for Wali's light relief thread yet :D

Mind you, after seeing some of the outfits at Seni this year.............

Imagine that? :)
I remembered many moons ago, many silat students practice with a pants made from flour bag canvas...:)

There is no peci (hat) or blankon, no sarung (sarong) no vest or fancy clothing. What people in the West do not understand is that, a gi or uniform is a luxury at that time and is not necessary. Only few people from the uppety have a gi/uniform.

I wore my sarung and peci to go to the masjid ONLY! :) Now days people using it as a part of uniform...go figure.... :confused:

Just remembering the good old days,
Tristan

Pekir

12-Aug-2006, 11:44 PM

Imagine that? :)
I remembered many moons ago, many silat students practice with a pants made from flour bag canvas...:)

There is no peci (hat) or blankon, no sarung (sarong) no vest or fancy clothing. What people in the West do not understand is that, a gi or uniform is a luxury at that time and is not necessary. Only few people from the uppety have a gi/uniform.

I wore my sarung and peci to go to the masjid ONLY! :) Now days people using it as a part of uniform...go figure.... :confused:

Just remembering the good old days,
Tristan

Thats why I wouldn't even consider attending something like seni competition. Besides our lack of kembangan everyone is dressed up in authentic (I believe it's mandatory but I might be wrong ) 'original' regional dress. It does look nice though and don't want to be judgemental but we don't have them and I probably would not be able to persuade my students to wear them anyways. We do have black uniforms though, but then we are from the uppety :D

Pekir