Using your entire body for power

[PsiCop]

I've posted before about tension and relaxation. This is a sister subject ive been researching. I'm reading many articles on tai chi and kung fu and their philosophy on generating true power. One tai chi article ive read talked about the 3 main power generating points on the body; centers of gravity. I don't necessarily want to learn tai chi or kung fu, but rather to incorporate their philosophies along with my own style's.

I'm 1st Dan in Tang Soo Do, a sister of tae kwon do. It has more of an emphasis on "logic fighting" if you will, than does TKD. We emphasize heavily on using hips to generate power on many of our movements. We also use the shortest and fastest path possible in attacks and defense. We're very "get the job done quickly and right". Which brings me to my questions.

What type of movements and body power do you generate with minimal effort? I'm also curious as to the correct way to relax your muscles until the point of impact. I've also read about how your tai chi styles say not to stop "Dong" (?) : the stoppage of power due to too much tension on one of the "3 points of power". I forgot what they called them. Could you guys elaborate on these principles and point me to some articles too? Any response is greatly appreciated, as you're some of the only contacts i can ask about tai chi. Thanks.

[Mike Flanagan]

As a karate practitioner who dabbles in Tai-Chi, I think you really need to try it out for a bit. It takes time and practice to learn a different way of moving. Someone more eloquent than I could probably list the relevant principles, but I still think you'd need to practice the Tai Chi way in order to begin to grasp it.

Sorry to be so unhelpful,

Mike

[wutan]

Hi PsiCop,
The power generated by using total body force can only be attained through regular practice.
I suggest that you seek out a Tai Chi class that has the martial aspect as part of their curriculum.
The Fa Jing (explosive energy) can be generated only by the body being as relaxed as possible using the force from the ground,up the legs to the waist and issued to the hands.
The hands are a bit like the bumper of a car by the fact that they would not push by themselves but would be the contact point with the car behind the bumper.
As an exercise stand with your palm against a wall and only use your arm to push against the wall-This is classed as external force although you would probably use your hip to generate power.
Now taking up the same stance sink your body at the knees and push your feet into the ground at the same time as allowing your palm to push forward in a relaxed manner almost in a way that you would do when you sneeze!
You would never just sneeze with your nose but you feel that your whole body moves-This is a similar feeling to when you issue relaxed power.
By adding in a turn of the waist to this move one can generate a lot of power by using the whole body.
Even if you were only 9 stone I would not like to be hit by 9 stone punch!
There are many other exercises that can be practiced using heavy bags and focus mits.
Hope this helps a bit.

Regards,

Wutan.

[PsiCop]

Thank you. Ill be sure to try that this week. what do u mean by stone btw? bricks?

[WhiteWizard]

stone is a unit of measurement. i would also reccomend going and trying some tai chi its the only real way you will learn to understand this area correctly however it can be very helpful

[Conn]

Psicop,
you asked"what type of movements do you generate with minimal effort?" . The answer is 'small ones'. If you think of power as Mass x the speed that it's applied, then all you need to do is train each part of your body to move (in sequence) a small amount. This is due to the fact that the fastest movements we can make are ones that cover a small distance. So the exterior of your body would move very little. Inside your body you would also be making tiny little movements that would enable you to ossilate pressures in a wave , so that when these waves exit your body (via your hands , if you were punching) you would be transfering the wave force into your target. These waves of force are generated by your tendons and carried through the fluids in your body, much like waves of energy are carried through the ocean. In order to make these waves more shocking and hence more powerful , you then need to learn how to increase the (internal) speed of the ossilations. If you think of your body as a series of hose-pipes and the force you genarate as water, imagine the source of the water (like a tap) turned on just a little. The force of the water (because it's not traveling that fast) is not so strong. But now imagine the pressure of a firemans hose traveling through. It's traveling faster and is pushed through at a greater rate. This kind of force can do some damage!

As for relaxation in Tai ji (or other internal arts for that matter), the key thing is balance. That is not so much to totally relax, but more so not to get tense. If we go back to our hose-pipe; imagine all
the force of the water traveling through........and then twisting the hose. This would obstruct the amount of force that would come out of the nozzel. This is simillar to creating excess tension in your body. What you would be doing is reducing the amount of kinnetic force that you wish to apply to your target, becuase the pathways for that force would be blocked or restricted, like squeezing a hose-pipe.

As I see it there are three reasons people 'tense on impact'. one is to stop their arm flying off and exerting a strain on their muscles and joints. Two is for focus of power and three is to effciently transfer the power to the target. This third reason seems to work like moving a tea pot (half full of tea) across a surface. When we move the tea pot we are generating motion of it's mass. When we suddenly stop the tea pot (like tensing at the point of impact),
the tea pot (our body) may stop, but the force of the tea slushes against the inside of the tea pot. The kinnetic force we create "slushes" to the tip of our fist when we bring it to a stop(as in tensing). So the force of the strike carries through to the target.

This is all well and good, but we have the problem of "sqeezing the hose-pipe"!

In the internal arts this reduction of force is overcome in a few ways. One of which is to create a shape that will prevent excertion of force on muscles, add focus to the action of striking and also efficiently "stop the tea pot"! This shape is roundness (just like a tea pot).

These round shapes require the minimum of, but just enough, tension to conduct the kinnetic force so that it reaches the target
with the least obstruction.

This is why we see rounded shapes made by tai ji exponents.

Hope this helps.

Cor blimey I'm pooped! I think I'll have a cup of tea!

[wutan]

I still say try to relax,this is different from being flaccid or limp.
I agree not to be tense which will help you to relax.
Some interesting points from Conn and very well explained.
The '9 stone' bit you questioned-A stone is a british measurement.14lbs to every stone.
The difficulty is when you try to remain relaxed and focused under a stressed situation like sparring etc.
Our heritage has hard wired us to the fight or flight syndrome which elicites an adrenaline dump into our blood stream.
The idea in the internal arts is to try and bypass our glandular response-Not easy when confronted with an attacker where we are more likely to use the adrenaline and stiffen up to a degree and use our agression to get out of the situation or run like hell.
Problem is that we can only use this for a certain amount of time before we are drained of energy.
I digress a little from the thread but think that it has a relevance to the question and training issues when trying to use total body force in a street situation.

Rgds,

Wutan.

[PsiCop]

Thanx guys. I can understand the logic of using circular movements due to the fact that they are continuous and aren't as "twisting of the hose" so to speak. Its good to have it put into context.

[nzric]

I agree with Conn. Think about a wheel turning - get a bicycle and turn one of the wheels. The ends of the spokes in the centre will only be moving a very small amount but on the rim of the wheel the spokes will be spinning around quickly.

It's the same principle with taiji. You need to focus on the Dan-tien point, which is a point about three finger widths below your navel, which corresponds to your centre of gravity. If you move/shake your body from your dan-tien you will hardly need to move your muscles, as your arms form the spokes of the wheel and your hands move very quickly.

To get this kind of coordination it's absolutely vital you keep 'Sung'. Translated this means 'relaxation' but the idea is more an alert stasis than the Western idea of 'relaxation' which people usually think of as flaccidity or weakness.

On a side note - you may want to look into the psychological fighting aspects of the internal arts. The idea of the internal arts are to do whatever the opponent doesn't expect (like spontaneous power generation, constant attacking, chi disruption, circling to attack and attacking from unusual angles, and also yielding and moving in 'unnatural' ways). The principles are the opposite of what would traditionally be called 'logical fighting methods'.

[PsiCop]

Those psychological aspects are in almost any art is your think about it. Isn't one of the main points of any art to suprise the enemy and never do the expected? Nonetheless, they're still all good priciples to consider. Also, could you elaborate on the eastern idea of relaxation more?

[Magellan]

<< Isn't one of the main points of any art to suprise the enemy and never do the expected? >>

Yes, a couple of similar principles in tai chi are that the attacks don't come from the expected angles and directions. Also, tai chi, even when defending, attacks, and even when attacking, defends.

In ba gua, another of the internal arts, it is said that although there are no moves which lack power, there are no moves in which the expression of power is obvious.

[Syd]

You can't train a zebra to race like a thoroughbread ( only in the movies it seems ) and expect to get thoroughbread results. Your either a thoroughbread or a zebra; the two move differently according to their natures and individual raison d'etre.

[TkdWarrior]

good thread n good questions.. but you know it's sometime hard to understand untill you stop dabbling in it and started learning it... when u start learning you'll see how similar they might seem to your main art... I did TKD and later Tai chi... and I enojoyed every bit of tai chi practice...
Now taking up the same stance sink your body at the knees and push your feet into the ground at the same time as allowing your palm to push forward in a relaxed manner almost in a way that you would do when you sneeze!
You would never just sneeze with your nose but you feel that your whole body moves-This is a similar feeling to when you issue relaxed power.
great metaphor... do you mind if i use this and put together a whole article ;)
-TkdWarrior-