knife attack question

[AK-47]

Your opponent holds his knife in his right hand and has his right foot forward (covered by the knife)...he takes small steps in your direction thrusting the knife in quick jab like motions towards your eyes/throat...No big steps, no lunging attacks...

What would you do?

[Declan]

What would you do? Lots of this...
http://pennstatebehrend.psu.edu/athletics/trackandfield/images/Barlett%20sprinting%20outdoors.JPG

[Gajah Silat]

Of course :)
But what if you are trapped in an dead end alleyway, of club toilet etc.?

[Declan]

I would probably spend a significant amount of bleeding and possibly a considerable amount of dying.

Most people who tell you otherwise have probably vastly overestimated their skill against a knife-weilding opponent. Bear in mind that most people who practise knife defences do so against a fairly non-threatening and compliant "attacker" and are at a loss when the knife keeps moving.

Every year I am invited to teach at a one-day seminar in which students from different systems are mixed together and are given short lessons by the various instructors throughout the day. One year I gave the "black-belt" group a different perspective on knife-defence. This group contained Ju Jitsu, Karate, Tae Kwon Do and Aikido practitioners.

I selected a 4th Dan from one school and a 2nd Dan from another school. I gave a rubber knife to the 2nd Dan and told him he was to "kill" the 4th Dan. I told the 4th Dan he could do anything he wanted in order to survive the attack and disarm his attacker.

As I imagined, the 2nd Dan attacked with a single thrust, stepping into a crisp, but static, forward stance. The 4th Dan did something or other, blocked the attack and disarmed the attacker, taking him to the floor and putting him in an arm-lock. Very nice. Very crisp.

I then took the knife and attacked. This time, however, I kept the knife moving, stabbing and slashing repeatedly. The 4th Dan's blocks couldn't keep up. After a few seconds I stepped back so the class could see the black streaks of rubber all over his crisp white Gi.

I then handed the knife to the 2nd Dan again and told him to do the same. This time, he succeeded in "killing" the 4th Dan.

The class then paired off, twenty pairs in all. In each pair, one person had a rubber knife and the attackers were told to attack as if they meant to kill, not as if they were the "Uke" (as they say in the Japanese arts). I left them to it for a while. Suddenly, there were fewer "crisp" movements, no takedowns and no arm-locks. Both sides got to play the "attacker".

At the end of the exercise, I asked how many of the 40 participants had survived even one "attack". One person put his hand up.

So, despite years, even decades, of training, thirty-nine black-belts would have blindly gone into a knife defence and definitely got cut, probably killed and all because they had been training with the wrong tactics in mind.

So, finally to answer your question...

Apart from the bleeding and the dying, I would try to get a grip on the back of the wrist (the one holding the knife). Without controlling that wrist, I am almost certainly going to get stabbed. Of course, I would be trying to keep myself out of the path of the knife at all times (none of that "upward block against a downward stab" nonsense). This would involve considerable foot-work and timing. Once I had that grip, I would be able to keep the knife hand moving so as to keep it away from me, while upsetting the attacker's balance. Once his balance was gone, he would be mine.

Are my footwork and timing good enough? I hope I never have to find out.

Regards,

Declan

[tellner]

Good responses from Declan. As Richard Pryor said about knife defense:

Mother<very bad word> will just cut that <bad word> right up. If a man comes at you with a knife you run. If you can. If you can't run, FLY!

If I weren't actually in the bathtub I'd have something at hand to make it a little more even. If I were enjoying the daily Toad Soak I'd probably pick up the cat (who likes amphibian-flavored broth) and throw him at the attacker and improvise from there.

To answer your real question, it all depends. I haven't had a particularly interesting life, but I have had to deal with guys with knives once or twice. I don't think I ever used a pre-planned defense that I had learned in class. Elements of them came out in my response, at least I vaguely remember it that way. I never said "This attack is coming at that angle. I will now use Knife Counter three, variant one." So far whatever I did worked, thank G-d.

[tellner]

One of the people who drifted through Guru Plinck's class was a fifth degree black belt in a martial art that has a decent reputation out in the world. One a few guys, including one of his black belt students, was attacked by another bunch of guys. The black belt performed his well-practiced knife defense perfectly. And he died. Since then the 5th Dan has refused to teach any of his system's counter-knife techniques.

[Ular Sawa]

One of the people who drifted through Guru Plinck's class was a fifth degree black belt in a martial art that has a decent reputation out in the world. One a few guys, including one of his black belt students, was attacked by another bunch of guys. The black belt performed his well-practiced knife defense perfectly. And he died. Since then the 5th Dan has refused to teach any of his system's counter-knife techniques.

Makes sense. The sad part is that there are probably a lot of other teachers out there who still are...

[Orang Jawa]

Lots of this...
http://pennstatebehrend.psu.edu/athletics/trackandfield/images/Barlett%20sprinting%20outdoors.JPG

LOL! I'm not ashame to say, I was the first one on the picture :rolleyes:
My two cents,
1. If the person is trying to kill you, you probably all ready dead or at the very least have been stubb.
2. If the person is trying to scare you, that exactly what he did, to scare you to get what he want.
3. They were two choices: a) Take a control by trying to deescalate the situation and at the same time evaluate the probable escape route by any means.
b) Or pretending you are the invicible or the master of knife fighter.
My advice to you is to be a surviver not a dead hero, or the wannabe hero.
The only time you have to fight is for your life or for your loved one life. PERIOD
And I could be wrong too,
Tristan

[firecoins]

your name is AK-47, try using it.

[AK-47]

Running is not always possible....

I got attacked with a knife in a country famous for knife skills not so long ago. The thing was I was barefooted on a beach, running was not an option because: I was barefooted on a beach with wet long pants, at night, and the guy was a local. Survived but got cut.

The question arouse because I had a sparring session a while ago with a filipino who is very good at arnis and also knows silat.
:) Running would not have been an option too because this guy is also a PE instructor, teaching athletics....


As declan said I suggested I tried to control the wrist and it didn't really work: I moved to the side triying to catch it and got 3 shots to the heart as a result. Triying to catch a jab-like strike is nearly impossible, at least at my level.

[Kiai Carita]

Running is not always possible....

... As declan said I suggested I tried to control the wrist and it didn't really work: I moved to the side triying to catch it and got 3 shots to the heart as a result. Triying to catch a jab-like strike is nearly impossible, at least at my level.

Hello AK-47,

Why not trying to control the elbow before the wrist?

Warm Salaams to all,
KC.

[Declan]

Running is not always possible....I know. I was partly being facetious and partly warning people that they should run from a knife whenever the situation allows it.
As declan said I suggested I tried to control the wrist and it didn't really work: I moved to the side triying to catch it and got 3 shots to the heart as a result. Triying to catch a jab-like strike is nearly impossible, at least at my level.In my experience, martial arts instructors tend to over-simplify knife defence. It requires excellent footwork and timing and even then, as in your case, you will probably get cut.

Although I don't know the full details of your encounter, I believe you were correct in trying to control the wrist. Perhaps not on each of the jabs though. Have you ever seen that mad photographer, Austin Stevens, on the TV? His passion is photographing dangerous snakes. I've seen him grab a lunging, venomous snake. However, he doesn't try to grab the snake each time it feints, he moves just out of range with each feint and then tries to grab the snake behind the head when it launches a more committed attack. Personally, I think I would approach jab-like strikes the same way: try to stay out of the way until the attacker launches a more committed stab, then go for the wrist.

Will that work? I hope I never have to find out.

Regards,

Declan

Austin Stevens:
http://www.animalplanetlatino.com/series/asset/21721404947337775_austin_historias-big.jpg

[Declan]

Why not trying to control the elbow before the wrist?

The elbow is further away. In extra split-second it could take you to reach the elbow, you could get cut. Why take that chance?
Controlling the elbow still allows some movement in the hand. Your attacker could still point the knife towards you and cut you.
Controlling the wrist means you can direct the knife and it limits the attacker's cutting movement.


Regards,

Declan

[Sgt_Major]

the wrist moves faster than the elbow tho, so it'd be easier for you to control the elbow.

just my 2 cents

[Declan]

the wrist moves faster than the elbow tho, so it'd be easier for you to control the elbow.
The distance between the elbow and the wrist is around 30 cms.

I think I'll go for not having the knife 30 cms closer to me (and still mobile) than it needs to be.

Regards,

Declan

[Sgt_Major]

however, if you have moved your centre mass, as you should, you could have the knife 30cm FURTHER away from you by going for the elbow, than going for the wrist.

[Declan]

OK. So now you have him by the elbow.

What do you do next?

Declan

[Sgt_Major]

lol - I didnt say I had all the answers! :D

[Kiai Carita]

OK. So now you have him by the elbow.

What do you do next?

Declan

Hi Declan,

Lucky to get to 'have' him by the elbow. To 'get' the elbow you need to move evasively forward and the right langkah could give you a chance to attack the wrist or go to his back or come inside to throw / arm-break. If you only 'get' him by the wrist his elbow might stil come in to whack you, and with a twist your wrist hold could be released. If you can touch his elbow and stick there you will have control of everywhere the hand goes.

But of course every knife attack would be different, as would the environment of attack.

Warm Salaams to all,
KC

[Declan]

Ah.

Grabbing the elbow is simply a means to an end. It would therefore be good to know what the end is.

I know what I could do once I had him by the wrist. There are various options:

Throw him suddenly so that he goes down with a broken elbow
Keep the knife moving and stab him with it
Fold the arm back and press the edge of the knife against the neck


I'm sure there are more.

Regards,

Declan

[Sgt_Major]

For Options you have,

repeated blows to his face with your elbow/head.
Breaks to the elbow, knees, or just control of the weapon. Obviously he could swith hands which you have to be aware of.
Or seeing as your trapped, use the leverage on his elbow to geta free space, and leg it! after raining blows on his head and face to distract him of course :D

[Rebo Paing]

Observe, is the knife a stabbing knife or a slashing knife, heavy or light?
Then it will dictate tactical response.
Expect to get cut, and use fore-arms for shield if small knife, but if heavy slashing knife like kukri it will shear arms off. It is very brave and foolish to try to hit head because you will be stabbed or slashed.
A good knife fighter (a good any fighter) will control/dominate around his centre, it is simple matter to follow attempt to move around centre.
There is 2 solutions that work for me if you can't run.
1/ Sendal pancing principle to sucker enemy to follow for kill, and you back kick to stomach area (biggest target - less missing). This has worked for me against a better knife fighter, but better work first time.
2/ Be a better knife fighter on the day, and if no knife get any object to defend and attack ... umbrella better than knife!

Best thing is to allow gerak nurani to happen, trust your instincts and make sure that you have seeded them properly in your training.
Best way to let gerak nurani to happen is to know that it doesn't matter if you die now or later, so we can remain calm and not only do gross motor movements.

We all have a terminal condition called life!

Nuwun.

[Orang Jawa]

The distance between the elbow and the wrist is around 30 cms.

I think I'll go for not having the knife 30 cms closer to me (and still mobile) than it needs to be.

Regards,

Declan

Speaking as a rokie here,
Controlling the elbow is controlling the next movement....However, you must re-direct the incoming and at the same time move away from the firing line. Only then Your try to control the his hand by placing your forearm or hand against his knife hand hand, preferably slightly above his elbow. When your control his elbow, you controlling his shoulder, when you controlling his shoulder, you are controlling his next movement.
If you try to control a wrist from the start without the understanding of securing your perimeter, you are on a very high risk.
And I could be wrong too,
Tristan

[Narrue]

I think it’s difficult in reality to dodge or block a knife attack without getting cut at some point, you don’t know what area he is going to strike. Perhaps it’s better to make your move before he makes his, obviously you are going to move swiftly because your life depends on it.
I would go for a grab and strike/brake, I don’t think wrestling or locks are a good idea with a knife attacker, I don’t really want to be wrestling around on the floor with a knife.

Buying a split second could be important in this situation. Blasting a handful of pocket change or whipping your belt buckle in someone face will make them blink and perhaps that’s all you need. In a beach situation a handful of sand in the eyes might do the trick.

[Declan]

That's enough theory for me. I won't be posting to this thread any more.

As I said before, I know what I would try to do. I just hope I never have to prove whether I'm right or wrong.

Kind regards,

Declan

[Orang Jawa]

[QUOTE=Narrue]I think it’s difficult in reality to dodge or block a knife attack without getting cut at some point, you don’t know what area he is going to strike. Perhaps it’s better to make your move before he makes his, obviously you are going to move swiftly because your life depends on it.
QUOTE]

I agree with you wholeheartly.
The issue is this, if the person first intention to kill you? As I had repeteadly saying, you most likely all ready get cut/stub. PERIOD. If the person is trying to scare you, he most likely as scare as you. You may have a small window of opportunity to minimize the risk or to increase the risk, It is how you react is the most important thing. Not think but act.
I'll always have a questions to all so called master knife fighter, do they ever fight someone who are trying to kill him with knife or gun and survive or do they ever kill someone with knife, if they never did one or both of the scenario than his skill or mastery in knife fighting is still in doubt.
Demo and showing how to...DOES NOT ACCOUNT!
And I could be wrong too,
Tristan

[Rebo Paing]

Not think but act.
How you decide to respond relies on thought process too.

I'll always have a questions to all so called master knife fighter, do they ever fight someone who are trying to kill him with knife or gun and survive or do they ever kill someone with knife, if they never did one or both of the scenario than his skill or mastery in knife fighting is still in doubt.
Demo and showing how to...DOES NOT ACCOUNT!
And I could be wrong too,
Tristan

I have not seen any master knife fighter here, and I have not killed anyone in a knife fight ... neither do I wish to :rolleyes:
I did practice knife fighting in my youth, not chorographed ... it was part of my military training ... and the scenario happened as I described, but I was far from master :o , but some in my unit had real life experience with a knife (or two) in certain ill-conceived, stupid and arrogant wars, so my training did have slightly elevated realism to it ...

Salam

[Orang Jawa]

Kembang Alas
How you decide to respond relies on thought process too.

Hmmmm, true in part, at the end you must act before its too late!!!

I have not seen any master knife fighter here, and I have not killed anyone in a knife fight ... neither do I wish to :rolleyes:
I did practice knife fighting in my youth, not chorographed ... it was part of my military training ... and the scenario happened as I described, but I was far from master :o , but some in my unit had real life experience with a knife (or two) in certain ill-conceived, stupid and arrogant wars, so my training did have slightly elevated realism to it ...
Salam

Good for you my friend :)
Can't use someone exprience for ourselves. Until you have seen the elephant, you will not predict how you are going to react in a real situation or life and death situation.
So you are in the military, huh? What is you MOS?
We can all can sing like canary or be key board warriors, the fact is this. all your training, all your preparations does not mean nothing if you do not or can't react in time of needs.
Again, I could be wrong too, as usual :rolleyes:
Tristan

[leon_x]

i was watching some program, not sure what it was now but it was about self-defence in everyday situation. they said in a knife attack the best thing to do if u cant run is to take off your jacket providing you have time and use that as a shild or guard. its the same principle as in bull fighting, where you metador can deceive the bull in the direction he is going. also in the program they said that if the opponent stabs the jacket without hitting you, you can use the jacket to wrap round the knife and disable it for a short time, enough for you to counter or escape. they showed a demonstration and it seems pretty effective, however would an average joe guy be able to do the same thing.

they didnt tell you what to do if you havnt got a jacket tho? :confused:

[Rebo Paing]

So you are in the military, huh? What is you MOS?

That is a "WAS in the military" thank-goodness (past tense), and NOT in the US military ... so your US miltary acronym is meaningless to me. Where I woz, MOS is short for mosquitoe ... and I don't keep any :D

We can all can sing like canary or be key board warriors, the fact is this. all your training, all your preparations does not mean nothing if you do not or can't react in time of needs.
Again, I could be wrong too, as usual

Very true. At this point we are all "key-board warriors" and anybody can crow about their abilities. No one is doing that though, and your dire warning that the way you train is not necessarily the way you fight is stating the obvious ... no?

Having said that, in my system there is a philosophical component which I thought pertinent to the original thread, which views the relation between life and death where the two are part of the same journey. Neither should be feared, we experience both. Again the only option available for each of us is to train to the best of our abilities, so that maybe when the time comes we do not focus on the distracting thoughts and be a warrior.
Now I notice on the net that in many sensibilities, being a warrior is equated to being a soldier. This is not true. A soldier is not necessarily a warrior, and a warrior does not need to be a soldier. (For the most part in my experience soldiers are just confused individuals who've been taken for a ride).

Gerak nurani ... pure or instinctive movement coming from the our natural selves still needs to be seeded with methods that can be effective. So in a sense it's a process to direct instinct (training our reptilian brain) so that it automatically produces the response we have designed through mental exercise. The only way you can test that is through action.

For what it's worth, they are two pillars to my system, and as Mas Tristan says, I could be wrong too.

Salam hangat semuanya, kerabat dalam silat! Warm wishes to all, family in silat.

[Orang Jawa]

You said:The only way you can test that is through action.
******************
This it true, I ve been there and done that, do you?
Tristan

[Rebo Paing]

Yes I have experienced gerakan yang timbul dari nurani ... the movement that is instinctual. The question is, what is the quality of the movement? Sometimes good, sometimes bad, sometimes in between ... hehe. All people have it, it's just the quality that is different, person to person.

FWIW I used to be user-id Sekaralas, and I left because I let my base instincts take over. (Sorry MAP :o )
Sekar=Kembang=Flower ... Alas=Forest, Kembang Alas the name of my family style (also known as Silat Godong-kembang Pitulas and/or Silat Suryaning Ngalogo). I'm originally from Jawa Timur dekat Ngawi/Madiun on the foot-hills of Gunung Lawu. My father also taught me some Setia Hati ... hehe.
I've already detailed my army back-ground in previous posts, you can dig it up if it's important to you.

Salam

P.S. Flowers that grow in the forest grow where nature intended them. They are generally hardy as they are not cared for or cultivated by human intervention ... it's all very deep :eek:

[Rebo Paing]

Now is THAT a handsome so-and-so or what ... hehe :D

[realitychecker]

Great arguements I must say. I gather that you can't really say what you would/could do in that situation unless you have the understanding of having been there. Right or wrong?
My question is: Do a lot of other silat systems train blade to 'enhance' thier empty hand abilitys? I heard a rumor that that's what most say the west has done to real silat :confused: . I understand that, at it's origans silat is a "blade art" thru it's culture and necessity. Got that, enough said.

I feel that because my teacher draws good understanding from me when the cycle of training comes around to dealing with the blade. It always seems that I become more aware, period. Would you agree that training (and I repeat "training", "studying", etc") to deal with a blade increases your skill in understanding important essentials like "timing" and "distance"? I personally feel that a lot of my other training (jurus, etc.) really comes to light during the time that follows after these blade lessons.

Maybe someday I will have developed the skill to stop said attack from killing me. How will it happen, who knows? From what I understand from you guys is I better be able to stop him, delay him/her enough to give me a chance to turn around and boogy. Hopefully some of my family members won't be around there in a situation like that. Then running isn't an option, is it?

Most of us train in the "hopes" of coming out alive in any type of bad situation. Outside of MMA, and Military combatives, who put themselves intentionally into martial situations, we are all just hoping we do a better job when that next time comes. Doesn't it come down to that? Do you have to understand the difference between ingraining important understandings that will make you a better fighter, and false confidence? Abso friggin lutely.

Good to learn blade in your Art?
Thanks,
JR

Ps In a humerous way, with no disrespect meant, Kembang Alas looks like a young Saddham Hussien with a bad hangover :eek: . No offence meant, man...

[Orang Jawa]

Ps In a humerous way, with no disrespect meant, Kembang Alas looks like a young Saddham Hussien with a bad hangover . No offence meant, man...
****************
Hotdamn! You are right RC :) Just kidding Kembang
Tristan

[Orang Jawa]

Kembang said: I've already detailed my army back-ground in previous posts, you can dig it up if it's important to you.
*******************
Nah..Its not important to me, you the one started with talking about military background. Just wondering, are you a member of RPKAD? Or just regular ADRI? Your MOS (Military Occupational Skills/Specialty) is?
If you do not want to disclose it, is okay and I will not asking you again :) In the USA, when someone from the military, they often exchange experience to one another. Its not improper to ask someone in the military what his MOS is. Of course we tend to brag about our Military background, we called it a war story.
No offense intended.
Tristan

[Orang Jawa]

Good to learn blade in your Art?
Thanks,
JR
***************
Here we go again :)
I think we are all understand that the silat is weapon based martial arts. We practice to think that any incoming is a blade or something sharp. Our understanding in using martial arts for self defense then must be NOT TO GET HIT. We must ingrain in our head that any attempt not to get hit is combination of movements. a) Lower body -We must move our body from the firing line. b) upperbody-Blocking, deflection, and redirect the incoming by using hand. With both combination of movements, you will be in the high risk. Many silat players still do the blocking without moving their body from the firing line or 12 o'clock (your opponent is always in 12 o'clock). You will be surprise to see many silat demo have this flaws....
We must get close to our opponent to counter attack but too far for our opponent to reach us for another attack. That is the concept of securing your perimeter.
But I could be wrong too,
Tristan

[Damien Alexander]

My turn....

In these cases,we can only speak from derived personal experiences.
Myself, I have been in a confrontation or 2 with people that had knives.
First thing I did every single time was CRAP MY PANTS!
hey..chemical warfare :D

But for me,none of this "wrist grabbing" and "defensive blocking" ever worked.
I have found one thing that has worked for ME,personally and that was,god willing, to see the attack (what knife?!) and go on the offensive immediately!
If I can't run and I can't see both of his hands...
I start to bash the ever-living crap out of him as fast and hard as possible.
Given the opportunity,beg,plead, bribe, do whatever you can to avoid the whole situation.
But when that fails....fight! and fight hard and with all your might and all the heart you can muster!

If his hands are in his pockets,keep them there.
If they are in plain sight,keep them there!

[Rebo Paing]

Ps In a humerous way, with no disrespect meant, Kembang Alas looks like a young Saddham Hussien with a bad hangover :eek: . No offence meant, man...

Lol no offence taken my friends ... close diagnosis though, it is the effect of bad chilli ... and age? :o

I agree with you that traditional silat usually incorporated the use of a weapon, belati, trisula, golok or tombak etc.
I also agree with Mas Tristan, that without practical use (this era usually doesn't provide the opportunity) such training loses it's edge and ends up being for the most part museum pieces, and I question its practical value. Does it improve timing and distance in an average empty hand fight? Maybe ... you would have to test it in real situation.
IMO improvement in any art is a linear process and comes through accumulated understanding that stems from real experience over a period of time. This is true not only for individuals but in systems as well that profess to be a repository of knowledge.
The question is, is it knowledge that suits the environment today? With-out the body knowledge of frequent real world experience, one's technique and skill is open to question as to its effectiveness.
Empty hand skills are easier to keep current, because today it is the last defence anyone has and there are no societal problems with the parts of the body we might use as a striking weapon ... and also, it is easier to compete empty hand than it is to compete with a weapon ... except fencing ... or kendo ... maybe, but competition opens up a whole new set of problems unique to the artificial environment of tournament.

I have a cousin-in-law who is an ex Philipines special forces and he plays Arnis. Arnis seems to me to be a very good practical compromise to learning to fight with an extension, i.e. holding a weapon of some sort that won't get you in trouble from the authorities.

For Mas Tristan, I was a unit sniper in Recon, Spt Coy, 8/9th Bn Royal Australian Regiment (Royal Ausrtralian Infantry > RAInf) ... I was young and stupid, and now I am older but still stupid :bang: !

Salams

[Orang Jawa]

For Mas Tristan, I was a unit sniper in Recon, Spt Coy, 8/9th Bn Royal Australian Regiment (Royal Ausrtralian Infantry > RAInf) ... I was young and stupid, and now I am older but still stupid !
****************
LOL! Hoooah Recon!
L Coy 75th Rangers and later team 2/2 Mike Force 5th SF group.
I was young and stupid too and now I'm grumpier..:)
Tristan

[Rebo Paing]

L Coy 75th Rangers and later team 2/2 Mike Force 5th SF group.

That's impressive! Hoooah righ back at you Mas Tristan :D

Salam

P.S. I hope you consider donate for the earthquake in Jogja, its good for the soul (karma) ... do you still have contact with family in Jawa?

[Orang Jawa]

[QUOTE=Kembang AlasP.S. I hope you consider donate for the earthquake in Jogja, its good for the soul (karma) ... do you still have contact with family in Jawa?[/QUOTE]

I did and I have been asking anyone to do the same, thank you!
My brothers and sisters and their sibling are still lived in Jakarta, Indonesia.
I've been in close contact with them. My dad was born Jogya and my mother is from Solo. Both are now deceased.
Salam,
Tristan

[leon_x]

But for me,none of this "wrist grabbing" and "defensive blocking" ever worked.
I have found one thing that has worked for ME,personally and that was,god willing, to see the attack (what knife?!) and go on the offensive immediately!
If I can't run and I can't see both of his hands...
I start to bash the ever-living crap out of him as fast and hard as possible.
Given the opportunity,beg,plead, bribe, do whatever you can to avoid the whole situation.
But when that fails....fight! and fight hard and with all your might and all the heart you can muster!

If his hands are in his pockets,keep them there.
If they are in plain sight,keep them there!


makes sense to me! why give them the opportunity to take out the knife!!

[relish]

If you are sure that the oppenent is going to attack then it is within the law to launch a pre-emptive strike.. If possible get them on the floor as quick as possible, stamp on their thigh or calf (not lethal but they won't be able to walk properly) and run away. I think for knife attacks you are allowed to use more force because of the danger of the weapon if that's right?

[leon_x]

well for any self defence the court will use the resonable test. if another person would of acted in the same way then it is considered reasonable. well of course there is an objective and subjective test, so it might be reasonable to disable an armed attacker by breaking his arm for example, but unreasonable to continue and kick the **** out of him.

[tellner]

Everyone who is serious about self defense really should become familiar with its legal and ethical dimensions. And no, your martial arts teacher probably isn't qualified to them to you. As always, I strongly recommend Massad Ayoob's (http://www.ayoob.com) LFI-I course or at least books such as In the Gravest Extreme.

[Steve Perry]

Everyone who is serious about self defense really should become familiar with its legal and ethical dimensions. And no, your martial arts teacher probably isn't qualified to them to you. As always, I strongly recommend Massad Ayoob's (http://www.ayoob.com) LFI-I course or at least books such as In the Gravest Extreme.


What Todd said. Basically, you are only allowed to use as much force as necessary to stop an attack. You can't, once the guy stops, chase him down the street and stab him a few times, nor shoot him there, nor even pound on him.

Self-defense is allowed. Revenge is not.

Since you are the guy on the scene, you can offer your belief that you had to do what you did to survive -- and there have been some interesting cases that have passed muster. In Portland a few years back, a man shot a car prowler who was breaking into his automobile. The prowler was a skinny kid and the owner was much larger; the prowler was unarmed, but the owner said that the kid ran at him in a "menancing" manner and he fired to protect himself. The grand jury didn't charge the shooter.

Had the kid survived to testify, that might have easily gone the other way.

In Oregon and Washington, you can "defend your castle." In some states, you are required to run away if you can, and that includes your own house.
These are called "back-to-the-wall" laws, and the only way you can use deadly force is if you could not reasonably escape.

Before you commence to slicing and dicing or thumping and shooting, best if you know what the local laws allow.

[Narrue]

Say someone attacked you and tried to stab you but you manage to take the knife off of him, Would you then use that blade on him or would you kick his ass without using the blade?

[tellner]

Martial artists and martial arts teachers are not the best people to go to for legal advice. The basic laws concerning self defense, in at least that part of the world whose legal system is based on British Common Law, are relatively straightforward. They are also worth looking at if living at home and avoiding prison are in your plans. Massad Ayoob's LFI-1: Judicious Use of Deadly Force (http://ayoob.com/lfi-1.html) is the Gold Standard for this sort of instruction. His book In the Gravest Extreme is oriented towards firearms, but the principles are universal.

[tim_stl]

Martial artists and martial arts teachers are not the best people to go to for legal advice.

when i was younger and a little more foolish, i once asked my teacher about the legality of the things he was showing me. his response was simple: you are responsible for your own actions.



tim

[tellner]

when i was younger and a little more foolish, i once asked my teacher about the legality of the things he was showing me. his response was simple: you are responsible for your own actions.

True, but not terribly helpful if you're looking for "shoot - don't shoot" advice.

[Narrue]

Some interesting knife/weapon techniques here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2DtCUfCyfk&search=silat

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDGSJJ3rG6k&search=silat

This guy has a curious style of fighting, very soft

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-B7N9_Y8KVA&search=silat

[tellner]

This guy has a curious style of fighting, very soft


That would be Scott Sonnon (http://www.rmaxinternational.com/) who is quite simply a frickin' genius.

[Steve Perry]

[QUOTE=Narrue]Some interesting knife/weapon techniques here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2DtCUfCyfk&search=silat

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDGSJJ3rG6k&search=silat

Interesting drills. We have some of the same passes, though for us, the bare-against-the-blade defenses require going in rather than waiting or backing away. Soon as the guy moves, we close. This might seem dangerous -- and it is -- but less so, we believe, than backing away.

And we don't work with sharp blades. (On a single attack or a pre-set drill, I suppose you could get away with this, even though it's apt to get you cut by accident now and then. I can get sliced without any training. The idea behind our style is that you don't get stuck ...)

The thing about knives is that skilled attackers are *not* going to give you a single stab or slash and then just stand there with their arms extended, waiting for you to do the strip.

I like the stuff with the wallet and umbrella, though the same criticism applies. The attacker is not using any deception, just straight-ahead attacks.( I realize this is just the most basic stuff, but it's silat against somebody not attacking with skill, so it's somewhat misleading. A trained knife player is going to move more like the guys where they both have knives, and the bare-handed stuff shown won't work against that.)

I'd like to see what this style does against a fake, or an off-hand attack to draw the block, then the blade following up, or an attack wherein the knife keeps moving, two, three, four attacks, like that. [/FONT]

[Orang Jawa]

Interesting stuff it makes me smile ;)
Moving inside or moving straight into the firing line is consider a very high risk or suicidal. We do similat techniques but we are moving away from the straight line into 11 o'clok. Moving into 1 o'clok is an offensive move meaning you are "on" kill or be kill.
Staying in one place and just using the hands to avoid to get stub/stub was dumb!
I could be wrong too,
Tristan

[AK-47]

That would be Scott Sonnon who is quite simply a frickin' genius.

Sonnon learned some stuff in Russia and introduced some of Russia's martial art's training methods to the West....if you want to see more have a look at russian master's teachings:

Alexander Retuinski (Sonnon's former instructor) founder of ROSS.
Alexei kadochnikov (Retuinski's former instructor): founder of the Kadochnikov System.

[Steve Perry]

Interesting stuff it makes me smile ;)
Moving inside or moving straight into the firing line is consider a very high risk or suicidal. We do similat techniques but we are moving away from the straight line into 11 o'clok. Moving into 1 o'clok is an offensive move meaning you are "on" kill or be kill.
Staying in one place and just using the hands to avoid to get stub/stub was dumb!
I could be wrong too,
Tristan

Brother Tristan --

I don't have enough knife experience to be offering advice, and what I have learned so far is but a scratch on the surface. We don't go straight at the knife, either, we sector and turn to control the attack. I think our philosophy is that a guy coming at you with a blade expects you to back up or maybe even freeze, but he don't expect you to attack him barehanded.

Nor would I wish to do so, but if I'm getting out of the shower and I don't have my knife or gun handy, then I want whatever will give me the best chance of survival.

Generally, we want to wind up shoulder to shoulder or shoulder to sternum, depending on whether we take the inside or outside line, and we don't want to offer any trades -- I punch, he stabs -- until we control the knife. If we have a knife of our own, that's way different, but blocking one cut and then poppng out a backfist before he can cut again isn't how we do it.

Against a good silat player with a blade, we know we're gonna get cut, the only question is where and how bad, and can we stop him before he lands a fatal strike.

Stevan is fond of saying better to be stitched up in the ER than hooked up to tubes in the ICU ...

[Orang Jawa]

Brother Tristan --

I don't have enough knife experience to be offering advice,

Likewise brother Steve,

and what I have learned so far is but a scratch on the surface. We don't go straight at the knife, either, we sector and turn to control the attack. I think our philosophy is that a guy coming at you with a blade expects you to back up or maybe even freeze, but he don't expect you to attack him barehanded.

Good point!
Atemi is a must in an attempt to disarm. Many techniques being shown by so called master knife fighting are far fetched. Wise attack in selected target will help you to disarm your opponent.

Generally, we want to wind up shoulder to shoulder or shoulder to sternum, depending on whether we take the inside or outside line, and we don't want to offer any trades -- I punch, he stabs -- until we control the knife. If we have a knife of our own, that's way different, but blocking one cut and then poppng out a backfist before he can cut again isn't how we do it.

Watch the shoulders...
Becareful, you don't want to trade punches with knife stab. If your response is to give him a backfist, that's okay too, but you must follow with another and another until he drop his knife or his down on the ground. Shocked them and finish it.

Against a good silat player with a blade, we know we're gonna get cut, the only question is where and how bad, and can we stop him before he lands a fatal strike.

The key word is a good silat player...that's a very high risk for everyone.
A good silat player will not show you the weapons he have. The first cut/stab is not the last either. So, against a good silat player, we have to get smart, negotiate, run, or call my buddy Smith and Wesson. :)


Stevan is fond of saying better to be stitched up in the ER than hooked up to tubes in the ICU

Word of wise indeed.
Tristan

[TheDarkJester]

Most imagery of Filipino styles I see check the wrist to counter. Personally after almost being stabbed in the chest this weekend, my interest in FMA's has needless to say skyrocketed. In spite of everything I was taught in mantis boxing.. it really is true.. that false bravado goes out the window when someone tries to stick you in the chest. I consider myself lucky yet shaken on how helpless I felt in the situation.

A few days prior to this event I tried testing my "knife defence" skills with a friend of mine who has done Hapkido in the past and with medium resistance I would have ended up cut, and probably a broken arm or two. I can't even imagine full resistance against someone who is seriously trying to carve a friggin Z into your chest. So comes the realization that me being 6'8.. most people aren't going to get into a protracted boxing match with me.. and its much easier to take me down with a blade than bare knuckles.. at least barefist I'll fight till I'm either knocked out or knocking someone out.

[rizal]

in the same situation i hope i was wearing trousers.
which means...belts! :D
people always forget that they are also usually carrying 'weapons' :Angel:

[Pekir]

Hormat,

My teachers always said, and I agree, when fighting a knive get prepared to get cut. In the best situation and depending on the type of knive superficial but still. So in principle I'd rather run, only hope my physical condition will outlast the attacker. If I couldn't run, well lets hope and pray and throw at him what I've got (if needed literally)

One thing I do would like to add in regard to teachers who I know that teach knive defense. Some of them teach applications with blocks and then a second action instead of immediately trying to seizing the arm (pulse or elbow) which holds the knive. This to me seems very stupid since any experienced knive fighter would never use his knive in a one motion manner. More like jab forward and slash backward so two motion manner. Blocking surely will surely make any wound more than superficial :woo: .

SY
Pekir