Wali Songo Clip

[TomFurman]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5580826913586260296&q=silat

[Narrue]

Some impressive moves there, Pendekar Steven is very swift and light on the feet. He clearly well deserves the title Pendekar.

To my knowledge there is no such thing as Wali Songo Silat in Indonesia. I asked a few friends that live in Indonesia and are knowledgeable about Silat and they all say that they had never heard of Wali Songo Silat. As far as I know this Silat comes from the teachings of an old Indonesian woman who is a Silat expert, it is her family style. She being the Guru may have renamed her family system but I wonder what was the original name for her family style Silat because I don’t think it could be Wali Songo.

If Guru Ma had taught in her own school then I would imagine that she must have had many pupils in that time and therefore a number of practitioners which are skilled in her family style Silat. If that is the case then it is unusual that only one school resulted since there must be others she taught who are also qualified to teach. Did none of her other students apart from Pendekar Steven want to set up schools?

[inthespirit]

I have heard many good things about Steve Benitez. Just wondering though, those strikes he does in the vid, they dont look like they cary much force. I realise its just a vid, but would be intersted in hearing what its like being hit in such a way.

[Wali]

Hi Narrue,

The system is called Wali Songo silat, in homage to the Wali Songo, of which Guru Ma is one of.

The actual system itself comprises different styles, including but not limited to; Kucing, Harimau, Buaya, Kura Kura & Garuda. A very strong emphasis is placed on the Kembangan. It wasn't practiced or taught by the first original Wali Songos' per se, and this is where some of the confusions sometimes arises from.

As far as other of her students setting up schools, etc... these exists, primarily in Holland, but are taugh 'closed door' only.

Glad you enjoyed the clip. I didn't post it myself, because it would have seemed like I was trying to advertise, but thanks TomFurman. Where are you from?

[Wali]

I have heard many good things about Steve Benitez. Just wondering though, those strikes he does in the vid, they dont look like they cary much force. I realise its just a vid, but would be intersted in hearing what its like being hit in such a way.
Hi IntheSpirit,

The strikes hurt like hell! Specially when they are continuously coming. Also, bear in mind that a lot of those strikes are done with a knife, and the effect of them are magnified significantly.

Cheers,
Wali

[inthespirit]

Thanks for the info Wali. I’ve been meaning to check out east west studios for a while now, I live about 10 mins, away but I’m a lazy sod. :D

[Wali]

Thanks for the info Wali. I’ve been meaning to check out east west studios for a while now, I live about 10 mins, away but I’m a lazy sod. :D
10 mins!!! You lucky so and so!! I have to travel a 100 mile round trip each time!

PM me if you plan to come down...

[inthespirit]

Wali,

100 miles.. now that’s dedication.. good on you mate!

Coincidentally I just pm'ed you on a similar matter.

[Narrue]

Hi Narrue,

The system is called Wali Songo silat, in homage to the Wali Songo, of which Guru Ma is one of.

Hi Wali,

What I meant was, does the system go under the name of “Wali Songo Silat” in Indonesia i.e. if I mentioned the name “Wali Songo Silat” whilst in Indonesia, its homeland how many people would have heard of it?
Would I be wrong in thinking that the title is recent?

Is Guru Ma somehow connected to the original 9 Wali saints i.e. a lineage holder? Would this mean that she continues in their tradition i.e. spreading the Islamic faith and teachings?
Does this make Wali songo silat an Islamic system or at least heavily influenced by Islamic teachings & thought?

[Wali]

Hi Narrue,

We are dwelving into a can of worms that I am not prepared to discuss on a public forum.

Needless to say, the important thing is that the level of silat being taught is high, and open to all.

Anything else just isn't important.

Cheers,
Wali

[Narrue]

Hi Wali,

Sorry if I offended you by the questions, didn’t mean anything bad by it, just being nosey :D
I have no doubt that the Silat is at a high level, nice video ;)

Change of subject, in the video I see that there is what looks like a keris jurus. Within wali songo Silat do you learn keris fighting skills and what are the main weapons taught in the system?

[Wali]

Hey Narrue,

No offence taken my friend. Silat has certain areas that are highly contentious, and in the spirit of godwill to all, some areas are best left to other types of forums. Please don't think I was being rude.

As far as the Keris goes, we do have several Keris forms.

The main weapon is the pisau (knife), and then we have several other non-blade weapons such as the desta (head wrap), and the salendang (shoulder wrap).

Feel free to pop down one evening if you ever find yourself in London. Some questions are better answered 1 on 1.

Cheers,
Wali

[Narrue]

Hi Wali,

No I didn’t think it rude, I understand and thanks for the invitation.

About the keris, I thought that it is seldom actually used by Indonesians in combat.

[Sgt_Major]

Thats another point of contention normally :D

Some of us do indeed train with keris in a combat role, others feel it is symbolic and not meant as an actual weapon.

[Wali]

Hi Narrue,

The Kerises used in Battle weren't the small ones, like the one in the clip, but the larger sword-sized Kerises.

The Keris forms have a deeper esoteric meaning, which cannot be translated onto screen. Somethings need to be safeguarded.

[Narrue]

I thought the larger keris swords were called execution keris and were used only to execute criminals. Here is an example http://oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=1398 is that the type of keris you are talking about?

[Wali]

No... the Keris I am referring to are thicker.. something like this...

http://www.thesigung.com/kris-sword.html

[Narrue]

Hi Wali,

A Moro kris, in Indonesia? I don’t know much about keris but I never seen a keris with such a wide blade in Indonesia. I thought the largest of Indonesian keris was the Bali keris.
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/taman.sari/keris/collection/moro/morokeris.htm

[Steve Perry]

Glad you enjoyed the clip. I didn't post it myself, because it would have seemed like I was trying to advertise, but thanks TomFurman. Where are you from?

Wali --

There is a much better clip from this style available -- I've seen it, but somehow misplaced the link -- more steak and less sizzle.

The Google clip is for beginners to get a taste and it spends a lot of energy on production and the look. The second clip is plain-vanilla, but shows much more of the real stuff, lot of good ground work, not so much flash.

A year or two back, somebody posted the site link on a defunct silat group, and asked for opinions , and a lot of folks weren't impressed, me included. But in response, there was a link to the second clip, and that one was about substance and not style, and gave a much better impression of the art to somebody who had some experience with silat.

I wouldn't mind having that link again, if you've got it. You can see the teacher's skill much better in his basic stuff than in the spinning and twirling knife drill. In my opinion.

[Wali]

Hey Narrue,

The example I gave was pulled out of a quick Google search... My point is that Large Kerises were used at times, in that dimension, as oppossed to them being those specific ones...

[Wali]

Hey Steve,

It was myself who posted the old query in the now defunct forum. The second video posted was hosted by a server/website that is no longer active.

The video was in fact 'Introduction to Pencak Silat', which can be bought on VHS format. If your interested, PM me for details, as I don't wanna breach the advertising rules on here. I will also see if we can get some sample clips up on Utube and google video. You have a good memory!!! ;-)

[Steve Perry]

Hey Steve,

The video was in fact 'Introduction to Pencak Silat', which can be bought on VHS format. If your interested, PM me for details, as I don't wanna breach the advertising rules on here. I will also see if we can get some sample clips up on Utube and google video. You have a good memory!!! ;-)

Wali --

I wasn't looking to buy a vid -- I have enough on my plate trying to learn one art, I expect it will take the rest of my life, and I'm on the downslope, closer to sixty than fifty-five, so I have to take care how I spend my time.

I was just trying to point out that for viewers with some experience in silat or kuntao of various stripes, peeks at the second tape are much more apt to catch and hold their attention. Flashy drills are fun, but movie-fu makes us smile, not nod and go "Hmm. Nice move."

Newbies who don't know what effective movements look like are apt to see the commercial set-pieces and be impressed -- Bruce Lee's poses (complete with the little bird-cry) look very dramatic, but taking the time to strike a pose can get you your head handed to you.

Even though it's a drill, when I first went to the Reel site and saw one player jump into the air and spin around while facing a knife, I laughed out loud. From where I sit, that's a really bad idea. And I also suspect that the guy doing it wouldn't think about it in a real fight against a real blade, so ... why show that?

'Cause it looks cool to the uninitiated. But for every newbie you snag, you are gonna lose a serious player who will do what I did, just shake his head and say, "Oh, please! I'm gonna buy a tape by some fool who jumps into the air and turns his back on a man with a knife?"

If I hadn't see that second tape, that's what I would have thought.

One of the things that impressed me the most about the first silat I ever saw was that I could see it was really effective, but most of the people at the demo could not see that. They didn't know enough to be able to understand what they were seeing.

I had a rainbow of colored belts up to and including black in several martial arts and I knew that the guy demonstrating this silat stuff could have turned me inside out with one hand while holding his coffee in the other hand and not spilling any of it.

People with no training couldn't tell that. Just some guy in a skirt dancing around was all they saw. I was at the next class he taught, and have been at most of the class for ten years since.

Basic silat is not very cinematic. Even the groundwork doesn't impress newbies because a good player makes it look easy. But I personally would rather see a sneak peek from something that showed real fundamental stuff. I don't need a movie set with pretty backgrounds and flashy stuff.

Reminds me of that old saying: For those who understand, no explanation is necessary; for those who don't, none is possible ...

[TomFurman]

Sorry it took a while for me to reply. I have trained with Inosanto, Hartsell, Bustillo, then Cass Magda via seminars. Couple of hundred hours. I have also been exposed to Wali Songo thru Cliff Stewart who I met in 1987. I have taken many privates Professor Harold Koning of Mustika Kwitang, and I currently train with Bruno Cruicchi in Raja Sterlak silat, and Garrote Larense.

My current gang of rowdies is mainly former military, BJJ stylists, judoka's, and private contractors. I teach tactical fitness with Russian Kettlebells.

I thought the video was a nice nutshell for those unfamiliar with Wali Songo.

I just finished a weekend workshop doing some Venezuelan Bladework with Bruno Cruicchi.

--Tom

[Orang Jawa]

Selamat brother Steve,
>Reminds me of that old saying: For those who understand, no explanation is necessary; for those who don't, none is possible
******************
I agree whole heartly to your opinion and the old saying is an execellent one.
In my opinion, in general all martial arts's video demo is a worthless, it was heavily choreographs ( i wonder of how many repeat they tooks before they decided to put is on the video) and heavily credited to the pendekar or who ever he/she is. Most the attacker in the video did one stub and stop while the pendekar jumping around slushing, stubing, cutting and while the attacker just stand there not doing anything, eventhough his intended target is about an inch from his knife.
In real life that move is a suicide and danger. In my experience, move away from the line of fire is a wise thing to do and the old saying, "if you want to kick a tiger ass, you better know how to handle his fangs." Word to ponder, huh?
But on other hand is an entertaining stuffs and makes me smile :)

Hey Tom, welcome to the list. Tell Bruno not to stare at good looking girls :)
Tristan

[Wali]

Hey Tristan,

Would you believe if I told you that each "bit" was only shot the once? This is God's honest truth.

Also guys, please bear in mind that this is a DVD, not a hidden jungle camera capturing real conflicts. That would make very boring viewing.

It would be nice to see clips from other systems, so that we can have a balanced debate about how things should/shouldn't be done, and allow them to be put into context.

Cheers,
Wali

[Orang Jawa]

Hey Tristan,

Would you believe if I told you that each "bit" was only shot the once? This is God's honest truth.

Also guys, please bear in mind that this is a DVD, not a hidden jungle camera capturing real conflicts. That would make very boring viewing.

It would be nice to see clips from other systems, so that we can have a balanced debate about how things should/shouldn't be done, and allow them to be put into context.

Cheers,
Wali

Morning Wali,
Thanks for the info and good to hear that there is no repeats.
I was not reffering only to the Reel combat video, I was reffering in general knife's video. I agree with your opinon. Unfortunately my video was documentary of 4 hours class compressed into 45 minutes, no demo, without a plan, no schedules what so ever, beginer knowledge and so boring :)
I saw bit and piece of that video. However, if anyone wants to debate the move that I made in the video, I would welcome it...I may learn something new.
Just remeber compare and contrast are good way to learn. Debate and arguing are NOT.
Tristan

[Steve Perry]

Hey Tristan,

Would you believe if I told you that each "bit" was only shot the once? This is God's honest truth.

Also guys, please bear in mind that this is a DVD, not a hidden jungle camera capturing real conflicts. That would make very boring viewing.

It would be nice to see clips from other systems, so that we can have a balanced debate about how things should/shouldn't be done, and allow them to be put into context.

Cheers,
Wali

Wali --

If I had the technical wherewithal to get a clip from one of Stevan Plinck's Sera tapes up on his website, I'd do it, but all I have are the VHS videotape vids and I can't get them from that into a format I can post.

At some point, I hope to get a player that will allow me to convert videotapes to DVDs, and when I do, I will see if I can offer a cut online somewhere.

Guru Plinck's first two videos are pretty basic, one each for Djuru One and Djuru Two. He explains a technique, the how and why of it, demonstrates it, and then moves on. Interspersed are cuts of various of the students doing attacks and defenses, most of them prearranged, some combinations the students came up with on their own. Not any knifework per se, as I recall, just basic drills, exercises, and techniques.

It's all fairly basic and not real impressive-looking. If you have some knowledge of silat, you can see kinda how things work in our style, distance and principles and the like -- though most of us in the tapes were still at the beginner stage when we did the shoots. If you see the second tape, it took two days to shoot, and on the second day, several of us are bandaged up here and there after the first day's activities ... (And I think Guru Plinck was suffering from a ruptured disk in his low back in the first, and was just post-op to fix that in the second. He moves a little easier now.)

My comment was not meant to indicate that the Wali Sango material wasn't good, only that I thought it could have been presented better insofar as attracting interest from people who were more interested in the basics.

[Wali]

Wali --

If I had the technical wherewithal to get a clip from one of Stevan Plinck's Sera tapes up on his website, I'd do it, but all I have are the VHS videotape vids and I can't get them from that into a format I can post.

At some point, I hope to get a player that will allow me to convert videotapes to DVDs, and when I do, I will see if I can offer a cut online somewhere.

Guru Plinck's first two videos are pretty basic, one each for Djuru One and Djuru Two. He explains a technique, the how and why of it, demonstrates it, and then moves on. Interspersed are cuts of various of the students doing attacks and defenses, most of them prearranged, some combinations the students came up with on their own. Not any knifework per se, as I recall, just basic drills, exercises, and techniques.

It's all fairly basic and not real impressive-looking. If you have some knowledge of silat, you can see kinda how things work in our style, distance and principles and the like -- though most of us in the tapes were still at the beginner stage when we did the shoots. If you see the second tape, it took two days to shoot, and on the second day, several of us are bandaged up here and there after the first day's activities ... (And I think Guru Plinck was suffering from a ruptured disk in his low back in the first, and was just post-op to fix that in the second. He moves a little easier now.)

My comment was not meant to indicate that the Wali Sango material wasn't good, only that I thought it could have been presented better insofar as attracting interest from people who were more interested in the basics.


Hey Steve,

If your interested, I have equipment to do what your asking, so in the spirit of friendship, could put some VHS tapes onto DVD for you. All you need to do is cover the shippin costs.

Also, we filmed a very different silat DVD 4 weeks ago in Madrid, with no flashy backgrounds, editing or music effects. It is set against a solid white background, and goes for instructional depth rather than production qualities. Purely focused on some of the upright basics of the system.

Hopefully we'll have some sample clips up once they are ready.

Cheers,
Wali

[Narrue]

I don’t think I have seen a MA video/DVD which is done as professionally as the Wali songo footage. There was obviously lots of money spent designing the set/arena in which the silat footage was shot.

A beautiful painting does not need an ornate frame, the picture speaks for itself and silat is certainly a beautiful style so perhaps it does not need any of the flashy framing.

I guess the problem is striking a balance between something which may appear too plain or sterile and on the other side of the spectrum something which is too rich or flashy.

I think it is important though to give the viewer a taste of Indonesian culture through music, dress and scenery.

Perhaps an idea would be to show each application in a simulated real life situation in a chosen setting and then repeated in a studio with a plain background so that the finer details can be concentrated on more readily. Perhaps that way a balance could be achieved between the two extremes, just an idea.

[Orang Jawa]

I don’t think I have seen a MA video/DVD which is done as professionally as the Wali songo footage. There was obviously lots of money spent designing the set/arena in which the silat footage was shot.

A beautiful painting does not need an ornate frame, the picture speaks for itself and silat is certainly a beautiful style so perhaps it does not need any of the flashy framing.

I guess the problem is striking a balance between something which may appear too plain or sterile and on the other side of the spectrum something which is too rich or flashy.

I think it is important though to give the viewer a taste of Indonesian culture through music, dress and scenery.

Perhaps an idea would be to show each application in a simulated real life situation in a chosen setting and then repeated in a studio with a plain background so that the finer details can be concentrated on more readily. Perhaps that way a balance could be achieved between the two extremes, just an idea.

In the old days, we practiced without music, t-shirt and loose pants, no belt, not hats, and the scenery is in the back of my Uncle house...rice fields on and on. We also acknowledge, some of the student in the silat community did practice with gendang or music and with customs. But this usually during the festivities and musical fights as of Wayang Orang, Ketoprak, and so on. So not in every day practice habits.
Now days, is different...yeah that's the right word: "DIFFERENT"
And I could be wrong too,
Tristan

[Gajah Silat]

Ah, difficult one here!

First, I think the Wali Songo DVD's are something of a bold, and maybe experimental step in MA DVD's.

Not that I'm an expert on MA DVD's but they can sometimes seem a little 'amatuer' with regards to production & many could certainly be improved with a little more thought. So, I can see what the guys are trying to do. Not just have a 'stale' technique DVD but try to make it more contextual.

However, I do find it a little 'arty' myself! I would prefer some more explanation, close ups and slo mo footage.

Furthermore, I have a couple of trusted personal testimonies of Steve Benitez expertise & can certainly express that I was impressed intently watching his seminar at Seni 06.

I think the cultural aspect of Silat DVDs, has to date basically involved a token sarong! Certainly, your average Brit would struggle to point out Indonesia on a globe, nevermind contemplate the MAs of the archipelago.

Anyway, I've confused myself now :confused: :D

[TomFurman]

"Hey Tom, welcome to the list. Tell Bruno not to stare at good looking girls"
Tristan

The Miami group was listening to Bruno's ideas for your wedding gift/honeymoon. Venezuelan Rum or Tongat Ali herb!

Brave man to teach a seminar before a wedding!

--With Respect,

Tom Furman

[tellner]

The Miami group was listening to Bruno's ideas for your wedding gift/honeymoon. Venezuelan Rum or Tongat Ali herb!

Brave man to teach a seminar before a wedding!

When I get married my frien' he give me a good piece advice. He say "Eat a dozen them oysters 'fore you wedding night."

So I did, an' tell you what, two them oysters didn't work.

[Orang Jawa]

The Miami group was listening to Bruno's ideas for your wedding gift/honeymoon. Venezuelan Rum or Tongat Ali herb!

Brave man to teach a seminar before a wedding!

--With Respect,

Tom Furman

Stupid maybe, egotestical could be, or just plain crazy but not a brave man ;)
I was not teaching rather sharing the beginer knowledge among friends.
Tristan