Setia Hati

[Narrue]

Anyone practice Setia Hati Silat. What silat styles influenced it, is it an animal style fighting system i.e. tiger, monkey etc.

In the promotional clip below there is an old man who at times moves in an artistic manner but when fighting he seems to loose it. Do they put an emphasis on kembangan in this system?


http://www.pencak-silat.net/images/images_galerie/videos/styles/psh.wmv

[Kiai Carita]

Anyone practice Setia Hati Silat. What silat styles influenced it, is it an animal style fighting system i.e. tiger, monkey etc.

In the promotional clip below there is an old man who at times moves in an artistic manner but when fighting he seems to loose it. Do they put an emphasis on kembangan in this system?


http://www.pencak-silat.net/images/images_galerie/videos/styles/psh.wmv

Hi Narrue,

SH is the oldest organized silat school in Indonesia and comes from near me, Madiun. Everyone here has done some SH sometime in their life. Eyang Sura, the founder, I think studied Cimande, silat Betawi, silat Padang and maybe also others, and also practised sufistic path walking. He was a religious teacher was also deep into Kejawen. After his death the school splintered and now the two main splinters in Madiun often have 'wars' during the Jawa new year. My father did some SH when he was young and taught some of it to me and my brother when we were children. We love silat because since we were very young we were exposed to SH. In Madiun, SH is big, like a political party. One splinter in the past was affioliated to the now banned Communist Party (PKI) and that splinter is now dead.

Off the topic: I suspect that SH came to Moscow into Stalin's inner circle around 1926-28 after the failed Communist uprising against the Dutch in 1926 sent its leader Musso, a SH style practitioner and teacher, and I suspect that this had an influence in how Systema developed ... it just looks so similar... I know I will get blasted by some Systema player for saying this but I can't imagine Musso in Moscow from 1926 to 1949 doing just nothing with his silat knowledge.

Narrue, SH is such a big school you can write a whole article on it just by following Mr Google dot ...

Warm salaams to all,
KC

[Narrue]

Thanks Kiai Carita for the info, I did do some googleing, most sites on Setia Hati are in French.
I see that they do practice Kembangan according to one site. In the video there are only a few short clips of the older man but I like the way he moves at times, not his fighting though.
Like you said it’s a big school, seen some of the photos and cant begin to imagine how many members there must be.

[AK-47]

Off the topic: I suspect that SH came to Moscow into Stalin's inner circle around 1926-28 after the failed Communist uprising against the Dutch in 1926 sent its leader Musso, a SH style practitioner and teacher, and I suspect that this had an influence in how Systema developed ... it just looks so similar... I know I will get blasted by some Systema player for saying this but I can't imagine Musso in Moscow from 1926 to 1949 doing just nothing with his silat knowledge.


Russian military training methods are quite different from silat's. The main differences being probably that Russian fighting systems don't use forms....Silat seems also to be very technique based whilst russian methods are mostly principle based.

And for the connection between SYSTEMA and Stalin's bodyguards, this is very contraversial....
On another topic if you ask in Russia about contemporary military training system SYSTEMA won't probably be first on the list, you will most certainly hear the name of another method. Russia has many different martial systems, among very them arts developped by the cossack warriors to fight invaders (turks, tartars....)....

[tellner]

Russian military training methods are quite different from silat's. The main differences being probably that Russian fighting systems don't use forms....Silat seems also to be very technique based whilst russian methods are mostly principle based.
You've seen some pretty shoddy Silat, then. One of the things that most attracted me to Serak was that it is pretty much entirely principle-based.

[AK-47]

There is lot of silat and different styles may have different training methods....But did you learn principles from day one or did you have to discover them yourself by practicing forms?

I've been in one Setia Hati system and found it very technique based: training consisted mosttly in defending against preset attacks, studying forms and footwork. Students would learn (good) techniques allowing them to defend against different kind of attacks. I know it is possible to learn the principles behind those techniques/juruhs/buahs and apply them in real fighting because there are very gifted excellent SH peoples....but how long does it take?

[realitychecker]

There is lot of silat and different styles may have different training methods....But did you learn principles from day one or did you have to discover them yourself by practicing forms?

I've been in one Setia Hati system and found it very technique based: training consisted mosttly in defending against preset attacks, studying forms and footwork. Students would learn (good) techniques allowing them to defend against different kind of attacks. I know it is possible to learn the principles behind those techniques/juruhs/buahs and apply them in real fighting because there are very gifted excellent SH peoples....but how long does it take?

I am going to let Todd handle this one because he is way more qualified to do so. But, I study under his Guru too. Guru Plinck stresses the basics, the basics, and the basics. We have some jurus, lankas, sambuts, etc. But it doesn't add up to a hill of beans if you have zero understanding of the basics.

How long does it take in my opinion? How good is your teacher? As far as "how long does 'it' take, what is 'it'? If you mean to become a formidable fighter, I believe it is in the hands of the individual who embarks in that particular martial study. How big is your heart? How much time are you willing to commit to study? Are you being taught the correct understanding? Pendekar Paul de Thouars says about the jurus "to know a juru is not enough, you must UNDERSTAND". A lot of my personal study revolves around that particular axiom (that has been infinately repeated, but seldom understood). After a lot of time in MA, Guru has shown me the beginnings of what that Zen-like axiom really means. Understand the true Basics.
Take care,
JR

[tellner]

There is lot of silat and different styles may have different training methods....But did you learn principles from day one or did you have to discover them yourself by practicing forms?
Guru Plinck teaches principle-based from the very first day. When you learn something you also learn why it's done, at least as much as you can absorb without getting confused or over-intellectualizing. Beginners get simpler explanations and a little more technique because they need something concrete to refer to. The emphasis is always on basics and understanding.

Technique isn't stressed very much, and we don't have a lot of it. The curriculum is very small. Basics plus understanding and practice in applying them in a variety of situations generates techniques. It's not the other way around. Practicing techniques the same way against the same attack won't teach you how to apply them when things change. And unless you're unreasonably bright you can't figure it out just by practicing movement. I'm not bragging, just being honest - most of the people in Guru Plinck's class are very smart. None of us could have figured out what was going on without having it explained.

The goal is to have the fundamentals so deeply ingrained and so well understood that you react efficiently according to the situation rather than searching for the approved technique to deal with the particular attack. I'm nowhere near that, but I can make out the shape of it out on the horizon.

If you're interested in some of the basic principles and concepts Guru Plinck's website (http://www.pencaksilat.com) is back up.

I've been in one Setia Hati system and found it very technique based: training consisted mosttly in defending against preset attacks, studying forms and footwork. Students would learn (good) techniques allowing them to defend against different kind of attacks. I know it is possible to learn the principles behind those techniques/juruhs/buahs and apply them in real fighting because there are very gifted excellent SH peoples....but how long does it take?

There's a three-legged race between knowledge (technique), skill and understanding. If you let any one of them get too far ahead it doesn't work.

To really internalize that understanding can take a lifetime. It's always possible to go deeper. If you're not getting understanding appropriate to your level of development from the beginning something went wrong.

Take sparring. Beginners in our system don't spar. They practice fundamentals. Once they have them they start drills that will help them spar - entering against someone who is throwing preset attacks or learning to gauge distance for example. Once they can deal with that the resistance increases, the attacks become more freeform and the risk of getting clocked goes up a couple notches until they are almost comfortable. Then more material gets added or some new idea is introduced. Intensity drops back down for a while until the other pieces catch up. Then it gets ramped up again.

I'm pretty sure we're never allowed to get comfortable because Guru Plinck wants us to be used to functioning while we're a little bit nervous and afraid. If you're in a fight and you're completely calm, cool and relaxed either you're not in a fight our you've seriously underestimated your opponent :rolleyes:

Tiel and I had a conversation the other day. We were trying to figure out how much technique we'd learned. There wasn't much. Half a dozen throws, a few punches, kicks, knees, elbows, a handful of locks and some ground work. But when we go out and play with people who know a lot more material we do alright. It's because we know how to apply what we have according to solid principles and with good movement and body mechanics. Technique is whatever you do at the moment. If you try to pre-plan your responses too much you'll always be behind, because people never attack you exactly the way you want them to.

[AK-47]

Interesting. I see we share common principles and training methods.

Take sparring. Beginners in our system don't spar. They practice fundamentals. Once they have them they start drills that will help them spar - entering against someone who is throwing preset attacks or learning to gauge distance for example. Once they can deal with that the resistance increases, the attacks become more freeform and the risk of getting clocked goes up a couple notches until they are almost comfortable. Then more material gets added or some new idea is introduced. Intensity drops back down for a while until the other pieces catch up. Then it gets ramped up again.


In my opinion sparing full speed between two students of same level is not really interesting as they cannot put INTENTION into their movements or use REAL weapons and this will introduce a false sense of security. I find it more fruitfull if the skill level is vey different betwen the two fighters.

I'm pretty sure we're never allowed to get comfortable because Guru Plinck wants us to be used to functioning while we're a little bit nervous and afraid. If you're in a fight and you're completely calm, cool and relaxed either you're not in a fight our you've seriously underestimated your opponent

I wouldn't say one has to be overconfident and take things for granted, but being able to relax under stress is very important if you want to be able to use your training during violent conflicts. That is why we must learn how to deal with our fears and we must train under unconfortable conditions (after being exhausted, fall or practice evasion on asphalt, against multiple opponents while on the ground/after being put into a lock and so on....).