Matt vs. Royce[Spoilers}

[cloudhermit]

Gracie looses in 1st round by ref. stoppage in 4 minutes & change.

[IrishStomp]

You wanna just right matt vs hoyce *spoiler or something for the title, now people that didnt get the PPV that wanna still watch it know who won. I already saw the ppv but still.

[kmguy8]

yeah and pull the result from the title you ______
christ... read the stickies
speaking of which after this post mods... i promise to look over the TOS myself ;)

[freak]

it was a dissappionting fight

[Catman]

Click here:

Matt vs Royce (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uart4xsN-4s)

[Cosmo Kramer]

thanks for the link. i thought it was kinda interesting, i dont care much for MMA but that was a nice quick fight

[Sankaku-jime]

and so ends the gracie legend, interestingly Matts Jujutsu was better than Royce's, Matt Basically won with the same BJJ that Royce used back in the days.

[Freeform]

Cloudhermit. Please read the rules for the MMA forum, I've changed the title of this thread to disguise the outcome of the fight.

Thank you, you have just ruined my evenings viewing :woo: I hope I changed the title before any other UK members who are watching the fight tonight saw it.

[kmguy8]

you guys deleted my content, huh?
why would you open the hughes vs. gracie thread you deleted content from if you had not seen the fight? you KNOW the results would be posted and discussed in there.
the fights are already up on youtube
most interesting note.... NOT about the result is the payday I think
royce was paid 1.3 million
hughes was paid 170K
in case anyone was wondering

[Sever]

No one's deleted any of your content. All that's happened in the other thread is that your post has been put in spoiler tags. You click the arrow, the content comes out. People do sometimes click threads in order to find out people's opinions on how the fight will go before seeing it, how the weigh ins went etc, but not necessarily see how the fight went down
Also, I'm told that people subscribed to that thread had the results spoiled by email as the spoilers weren't covered up, they didn't even have to click the thread

[yodaofcoolness]

royce was paid 1.3 million
hughes was paid 170K
in case anyone was wondering
so the real winner is $$$ :D $$$

O by the way, if anyone wants to beat me up, and has an extra 1.3 million on them, shoot me a pm.

But seriously tho, I thought Royce would do better than that. :bang:
Props to Matt.

[Davey Bones]

w00t!
w00t!

and allow me to repeat...

w00t!!!!!!!

[Taff]

w00t!
w00t!

and allow me to repeat...

w00t!!!!!!!

:confused:

[kmguy8]

1. woot

"w00t" was originally an trunicated expression common among players of Dungeons and Dragons tabletop role-playing game for "Wow, loot!" Thus the term passed into the net-culture where it thrived in video game communities and lost its original meaning and is used simply as a term of excitement.

"I defeated the dark sorcerer! Woot!"

lol, that's so lame it is actually very funny

[faster than you]

most confusing fight ever! where were royce's escapes? he did escape side control--by giving his back!
matt's jj is good.

[shuaichiao]

very dissapointing

[shuaichiao]

most confusing fight ever! where were royce's escapes? he did escape side control--by giving his back!
matt's jj is good.

Why did he give him his back it made no sense to me at all.

Gracie said he may have a few more in him, I dont know if I want to see it if its going to be like last night.

[NewLearner]

most confusing fight ever! where were royce's escapes? he did escape side control--by giving his back!
matt's jj is good.

Or maybe his wrestling is good.

[faster than you]

straight arm-locks, taking the back, 100 kilos are specifically wrestling?

bjj, wrestling, judo, sambo are all essentially the same thing.

[kmguy8]

errr... wrong NOT the same thing at all
closer than say....aikido & wushu
but not bassically the same
as a former wrestler.. learning to see, apply and escape.. much less chain submissions was difficult and new...
and wrestling taught me movement on the ground and take-down "better" than my BJJ training did
same family.. different focal points

[faster than you]

at heart they all emphasis position and levearge before anything else.

[Shen Yin]

I thought it was a great match, really. Royce has a great amount of perseverance, especially during the arm lock that Matt put on him. But in the end, it seems that Matt was just better that night.

Great match though.

[kmguy8]

at heart they all emphasis position and levearge before anything else.

this will be my last post on this topic in this thread

don't all MAs meet his criteria? come on? your kidding around right?
aikido, boxing, kendo, sumo, MT, any art at it's "core" works on positioning and using leverage to maximize power in a strike, grab, throw or whatever...

your quote is very true.. however,
to use it to say BJJ, Judo, Sambo and wrestling are the same is like saying:

"a chimp and a rhino are basically the same"
why
"because they both breath and eat"

[NewLearner]

at heart they all emphasis position and levearge before anything else.

To some degree. But wrestling is more positioning the opponent where you need them to be while bjj would be more a case of positioning the limbs where you need them for a submission.

Kmguy, would you agree with that?

[kmguy8]

i think this is a serious deviation fro the thread....
so I'll be really brief and thus probably not specific enough
both emphazise positioning the opponent
BJJ (if taught well) wil learn to move from position to position and the importance of that above submission.... the positions are different. BJJ teaches positioning in relation to the opponent from gaurd to half gaurd to side control to knee on stomach or mount with other variations..... a JJ fighter is always trying to improve position...
in wrestling freestlye.. it is more about take-downs and reversals (escapes) from positions... it is more "standing focused" and not all positions are "workable" because you can lose by pin...... there are no submissions..... just pins.... and these to do translate and change your focus when transitioning to BJJ....
so do i agree... yeah what you said is true.. but is is not how I would describe the "essence" of the differences....
.....now back to hughes vs. gracie...........

[ED-209]

If Royce ever wants to fight in MMA at a high level again he needs to take a break from the sport and adapt his game to fit the modern climate

he will never beat matt Hughes at 175, at this weight hughes is built like a rhino, and Gracie a stick insect
This is for the same reason weight classes were brought in, physical power plays a huge part in the outcome of the fight
The days of relying on technique alone are long gone, the only reason Royce could do it for so long is because of the surprise factor
I know matt and royce weighed in the same for the fight, but there was a ridiculous gulf in strength between the two, because matt has a smaller (shorter, i know a lot of his strength is genetic) untrained frame, so can therefore pack on more muscle for the weight limit

In order to achieve the right build for a top level MMArtist, the first thing Royce gracie needs to do is go away and pack on another 30 lbs of muscle, and fight at 205
He is, afterall, virtually the same height as chuck lidell

The next thing is to increse his cardio to fit the demands of his new frame

Royce needs to learn to wrestle
He needs to learn to take down in order to maximise his chances of dominant position on the ground
He can no longer rely on just falling back with his opponent into guard
the guard game has changed
the fighter in the guard used to be at a huge disadvantage, nowadays they have far better submission defence, and can G+P for huge amounts of damage
He also needs a wrestlers takedown defence, notice how easily matt avoided royces guard and went straight into side control
Royce done well to switch back to half guard, but it never helped him much, did it
I think he gave his back so easily cos he doesnt like being hit and was desparate

I dont think i need to say anything about royces stand up, it speaks for itself

If royce gracie does fight again, as well as a complete overhaul of his game, he needs to swallow his pride and start at the bottom again
In order to reach the very top again, he may have to take several years fighting his way up through the ranks, and perfecting his new fighting style
He has the time for this, look at randy courture, but will his ego let him

I therefore think the biggest question is: Does Royce want to adapt to the modern MMA climate, or will he bury his head in the traditions of his familys art, and become like those he exposed in 1993.............

I think guy is a legend, but he was destroyed on saturday, and i was sad to see

[stump]

This fight was a serious case of Royce needing a large pay-day. He was totally outclassed by Hughes and you could have replaced Hughes with St Pierre, Parysian or any of the other top welterweights and got the same result.

Am I right in saying they claimed Royce's record was 11/0/0??? - I need to see the replay to check that.

[Taff]

If Royce ever wants to fight in MMA at a high level again he needs to take a break from the sport and adapt his game to fit the modern climate

etc etc etc


All of what you said might work for him, but he's 39 and I don't think he would do it.

[ED-209]

I agree
should have saved my breath
I'd fight Matt Hughes for 1.3 million.......
......But I'd be tapping the octagon before he was half way across it

[Bhattman]

Really sad to see a legend get destroyed like that - especiallly Royce, the father of the UFC.

[NewLearner]

I agree
should have saved my breath
I'd fight Matt Hughes for 1.3 million.......
......But I'd be tapping the octagon before he was half way across it

Don't you know it! lol

[Bhattman]

I don't think Royce would have minded so much if he lost a decision, but I think what got to him was how owned he got. It must have really hurt his pride more than anything. I think the same went with the fans - a lot of people expected Gracie to lose, but I think only very few expected him to be dominated like that. I was really depressed watching it (and I'm not a Gracie nuthugger), and had that sick feeling in the pit of my stomach when Royce got pounded on from behind at the end there...

[Freeform]

It looked like a work to me.

Nobody gets caught with that armbar, especially not Royce Gracie.

Then it looked like he just gave him his back and did nothing.

[Apotheosis]

He's done fighting any top caliber fighters, I don't think he has the ability or the desire to do the work he would need to do in order to compete.

[Agutrot-]

At least he's not going bald yet.

[Skrom]

Nobody gets caught with that armbar, especially not Royce Gracie.


i'll admit, that part really did surprise me. i was just looking at the screen like :eek:
dunno why hughes let go though. he wasn't getting any resistance from royce - he was just chilling, looking at the pretty lights.

[tabman]

i'll admit, that part really did surprise me. i was just looking at the screen like :eek:
dunno why hughes let go though. he wasn't getting any resistance from royce - he was just chilling, looking at the pretty lights.
Ya I'd say hughes let him up... he was sunk deep with his weight on it.. the camera panned and suddenly gracie is free...

[kmguy8]

sprawl did an interview of hughes after the fight
hughes said he did not want to break the arm.. that he knew royce woul dlet him break it before he tapped.... despite the lame country boy image... nice guy
seemed like he meant it

[Apotheosis]

It looked like a work to me.

Nobody gets caught with that armbar, especially not Royce Gracie.

Then it looked like he just gave him his back and did nothing.

Why would any Gracie agree to a work? Especially their golden boy?

And people get caught in armbars all the time, Hughes was just to strong for Royce and Royce couldn't do anything.

Everyone can be beat, and while Royce is a great submission expert, Hughes is no slouch and he is much stronger.

Technique is important, but when youropponent as good technique and great strength/experience it's not enough.

As for why Matt let go, I assumed it was because he thought "Fine, you won't time so I will just pound you", it was pretty clear to me that Royce was NOT going to tap even if he had his arm snapped like a toothpick.

[stump]

I imagine Royce was coming to terms with the feeling of what it's like to be totally dominated on the ground....something he's probably not felt in a hell of a long time.

[pgm316]

wow, was Royce only that good in the early UFC's :eek:

Not that hes not good, just the difference between himself and Hughes..

At least the earlier fights of the night were more exciting!

[Apotheosis]

I think we learned that a lot changes in 10 years.

[faster than you]

not really; great graplping beats poor grappling. we have always known that.

[Skrom]

and strong beats weak...and well rounded beats one-dimensional...and aggressive beats passive...

[cloudhermit]

You wanna just right matt vs hoyce *spoiler or something for the title, now people that didnt get the PPV that wanna still watch it know who won. I already saw the ppv but still.

Sorry guys. I got way too excited at the end. I have completely overlooked the fact or missed that this broadcast was'nt live like the Boxing.

[cloudhermit]

KMGUY8,You are right. I am a Moron. Next time I won't do this after jumping up & down front of the T.V after a Matt hughes GNP clinic. Sorry again.
Question: Was this Royces first no Gi fight?

[Wilson]

Did anyone notice Royce tapped twice with his right arm at the end of the match? It happened as soon an big john mccarthy stepped in you can see it through his legs.

[Apotheosis]

Did anyone notice Royce tapped twice with his right arm at the end of the match? It happened as soon an big john mccarthy stepped in you can see it through his legs.

Looked at it on YouTube, couldn't see what you are talking about.

[MaxG]

Looked at it on YouTube, couldn't see what you are talking about.

Me neither.

[pug32]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zrCTLW3aOw&search=royce

found this link on you tube, sort of looks like a tap with the right hand but very hard to tell with the ref rushing in

[Nevada_MO_Guy]

Click here:

Matt vs Royce (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uart4xsN-4s)
Thanks for the link. The higher the pedistal the farther the fall.

Question: Was this Royces first no Gi fight?

I was wondering the same thing. The Gracie grappling legendary status seemed to need the Gi, in the past.

[Bhattman]

I personally don't think it looked clear enough to be a proper tap, but it is very difficult to tell.

As for the fight showing a lot has changed in 10 years, I think that was obvious from earlier fights - ie. how Tito beat up Ken, how Tank got owned by everybody etc.

[Slindsay]

The fight was interesting but I don't think it means much in the grand scheme of things. Royce is to old and fighting at the wrong weight, his stand up was poor and his takedown defence was no where near being up to par, these are all things sensible people should allready know, the fight just confirms it.

[Garibaldi]

Am I right in saying they claimed Royce's record was 11/0/0??? - I need to see the replay to check that.
No, that's what they said!

I was trying to work that one out too. Maybe that was an octagon record and excluded any ring fights in Pride or K1?

Edit: Nope just thought about that and even his non-fight with Harold Howard was officially a loss.

Hmmm

[stump]

And they didn't take into account his draw with Ken Shamrock so it wasn't even his UFC record....very strange

[Apotheosis]

The fight was interesting but I don't think it means much in the grand scheme of things. Royce is to old and fighting at the wrong weight, his stand up was poor and his takedown defence was no where near being up to par, these are all things sensible people should allready know, the fight just confirms it.

Royce isn't too old, Couture was older when he was winning...

I don't see why so many people say his stand up is so bad, Hughes didn't dominate on the feet. I'm not saying he is a great striker, or even a good one, but what in this fight made you think it was so bad?

Takedown Defense- He didn't even consider that, why defend a takedown when you would love to have it on the ground? If I was him I would just lay on my back from the start of the fight and hope the other fighter would go along with it.

[Sever]

Question: Was this Royces first no Gi fight?No. His second fight with Yoshida, his match with Akebono and I believe the fight he had for K-1 on New Years Eve were all no gi as well. This was his first time in the Octagon without a gi though

[Wilson]

http://media.putfile.com/Royce-Gracie-vs-Matt-Hughes-UFC-60

you can see it in that link a little bit better, but Its alot easier to see it if you recorded it and rewatched it on the tv

[Apotheosis]

My dumb VCR broke the day before the fight, so no recording:(

[cloudhermit]

I have been watching the replay over & over. I am not a Royce fan but Is it me? or Royce looked out of it from the start of the fight. And Matt Hughes hardly broke any sweat. I've been watching his old fights, including throwing the towel with Sakuraba. All his set up's were very different then this fight. I think this fight was one of the easier fights for Matt. I am no fan of Matt either. wanderli Silva is my fav Fighter. I still believe Royce fights better with his GI on.

[CCG2]

that was very dissapointing. call me shallow or w.e, but when i put down 40 bucks for a show that has a legend going up against a champion, i expect something better than that .

[faster than you]

My dumb VCR broke the day before the fight, so no recording:(
sorry, but lol..vcr!

[Oversoul]

I still believe Royce fights better with his GI on.

I'm not sure why people believe that. The gi gives his opponents extra handholds. This is a bad thing. That's part of the reason Sakuraba was able to control him so well and the reason he took off his gi for the second Yoshida fight. Being able to grab your own sleeve does not nearly make up for the disadvantages.

[Apotheosis]

sorry, but lol..vcr!


Have a dvd player as well, but no dvd recorder so....

[cloudhermit]

I'm not sure why people believe that. The gi gives his opponents extra handholds. This is a bad thing. That's part of the reason Sakuraba was able to control him so well and the reason he took off his gi for the second Yoshida fight. Being able to grab your own sleeve does not nearly make up for the disadvantages.

That's exactly what Royce wants his opponents to do. Watch his old fights & you will notice that the minute any fighter had a hold on Royce's Gi, Royce was in a huge advantageous position. Sakuraba trained & studied a long time only to beat Gracie style submission. Sakuraba tried the same method to beat other Gracie's also. But he got destroyed by W. Silva when he fought the same way as he did with Gracie's.

[Slindsay]

Royce isn't too old, Couture was older when he was winning...

But he was considered by most people to be a very noteworthy exception and he retired at 40 if I remember right.

I don't see why so many people say his stand up is so bad, Hughes didn't dominate on the feet. I'm not saying he is a great striker, or even a good one, but what in this fight made you think it was so bad?

The high kicks he was throwing lacked conviction, I suspect he was hoping that Hughes would shoot in off one of hem and he would try and pull guard.

Hughes was the only one to land any telling shots in the standup striking.

If you watch the fight, hughes takes Royces back when he ducks under a sloppy elbow in the clinch.

Takedown Defense- He didn't even consider that, why defend a takedown when you would love to have it on the ground? If I was him I would just lay on my back from the start of the fight and hope the other fighter would go along with it.

He was being taken down from behind and ended up in side control, no one would want to be in that position regardless of how good they are on the ground against someone like Hughes.

[Oversoul]

That's exactly what Royce wants his opponents to do. Watch his old fights & you will notice that the minute any fighter had a hold on Royce's Gi, Royce was in a huge advantageous position.

That doesn't mean the gi made him a better fighter. For one thing, the opponent grabbing his gi back then usually meant the opponent was already in a clinch or possibly even on the ground and moving desperately against a much better grappler.

Other than defensively grabbing your own lapel or belt as a defensive maneuver (I didn't see Royce doing that much in the UFC), about the only thing the gi can do is allow you to grab your own sleeves for submissions. If that outweighed the extra handholds you give your opponent, surely more fighters in PRIDE, etc. would be wearing gis now. And that still doesn't turn your opponent grabbing your gi into a tremendous advantage. It wouldn't even make sense. Giving your opponent more ways to control you is good for your opponent and bad for you. And the opponent can let go of the gi at any time.

[cloudhermit]

That doesn't mean the gi made him a better fighter. For one thing, the opponent grabbing his gi back then usually meant the opponent was already in a clinch or possibly even on the ground and moving desperately against a much better grappler.

Other than defensively grabbing your own lapel or belt as a defensive maneuver (I didn't see Royce doing that much in the UFC), about the only thing the gi can do is allow you to grab your own sleeves for submissions. If that outweighed the extra handholds you give your opponent, surely more fighters in PRIDE, etc. would be wearing gis now. And that still doesn't turn your opponent grabbing your gi into a tremendous advantage. It wouldn't even make sense. Giving your opponent more ways to control you is good for your opponent and bad for you. And the opponent can let go of the gi at any time.

I am nowhere near to be qualified to debate on this issue in a technical aspect. I have just started Gracie Barra BJJ by Marcio Simas. I will ask him next time.
But as a practitioner & spectator I can only say that If wearing GI during a fight was a hinderance in anyway Or did not make any sense, No Gracie's would ever wore any GI to begin with. Also they would have all their student population do the same thing. Yes, there is no GI classes also. but you still wear shirts or t-shirts.
Also we are talking about Gracie's here. It is safe to say that they are well aware of this.

[Oversoul]

But as a practitioner & spectator I can only say that If wearing GI during a fight was a hinderance in anyway Or did not make any sense, No Gracie's would ever wore any GI to begin with. Also they would have all their student population do the same thing. Yes, there is no GI classes also. but you still wear shirts or t-shirts.
Also we are talking about Gracie's here. It is safe to say that they are well aware of this.

I am probably forgetting something, but the only Gracie I particularly remember wearing a gi in MMA was Royce. And even he eventually stopped.

I don't see what training in BJJ in a gi has to do with it. I know there are BJJ competitions with gis, but those are not MMA. And in such competitions, both competitors wear gis (completely different from only one of the two sporting a gi). If you held tournaments and gave the option to either wear a gi or wear shorts, most of the successful fighters would optimize their ability to avoid being controlled or stalled against by wearing shorts (some might not, because it probably wouldn't be all that big of a drawback to wear a gi, but every little bit can count). In fact, this is what happens in MMA. The only fighter I know of in PRIDE that might still wear a gi is Hidehiko Yoshida. And I'd consider him an anomaly, not the rule. He probably wears a gi because he's comfortable fighting in one, not because it gives him an actual advantage.

[firecoins]

wearing a gi is illegal these days.

[Oversoul]

In the UFC, yes.

[Trent Tiemeyer]

Hughes is an animal. Never in a million years would I expect to see Gracie on his stomach completely flattened out.

Gracie offered no offense nor resistance. Hughes should have broke his arm, but decided to punch his head in instead.

Maybe next time Hughes can get 1.3 mil.

[Sonshu]

I will put my 2p in as I expected a Hughes win but not as dominant as that.

The key points I noticed were:

1) Gracie did not seem that interested

2) Early opponents of Royce would burn strength (like all noobs do) and Royce would let them move about etc then finish them. Trouble is Hughes knows what he is doing and his movements are calculated and not wasted - hence Hughes was improving his GNP positioning constantly

3) There was a clip of some training on the net with Royce doing striking training but in truth it did not look world class

4) Royce has never been pushed with GNP or a strong grappler/striker apart from Ken Lambchop which was early days and he was 10 years younger

5) Legends should stay legends - no point getting Pele back into play for Brazil.

Legend vs Champion will often not go well for the Legend.

It was a poor fight in all and I expected much more from Royce but he did not seem interested at all.

[gracie22555]

matt hughes is a strong fighter, and i admit he dominated gracie.

you also have to remeber though the UFC is a different place than when royce dominated, there are now alot more rules, and better overall fighters. Not to mention Royce is now older, and for speed guys getting old is tougher than large guys.

Royce probably just wanted the payday of 1.3 million, hey we all would :)

so who cares the fight was more of a gimmick anyways.