behaviour in the dojo !!!

[neryo_tkd]

i'm interested in what u have to say about the (in)appropriate behaviour in the dojo.

i really hate it when students start using pads and they just hit it as hard as they can with no regards to the person holding it. they don't want to listen to what their instructor has to say. it doesn't matter that their dolyo chagi is awful, that it is actually a sewo chagi or something in between. after the training some of them complain about the pain in their hips or knees etc but they don't want to accept the answer that what they are doing is not approapriate and not correct. :woo:

[gojuman]

As an instructor myself, I would say that any inapropiate behavior of students in a dojo is a reflextion on the instructors control over the class. In my dojo or any of the dojos in my ryu what you describe would never take place. If the Sensei does not see what might be going on certainly one of the senior kyus would take reponsability for the proper behavior of the class.
Maybe you need to find a more respect oriented training facility.
Oos

[neryo_tkd]

i am also an instructor myself. these things don't happen in my classes. the thing is that i visited another school. i expected to see a high level of quality but to be honest with u, i was shocked when i saw what was going on over there. i spoke to some of the instructors and saw that they actually aren't qualified for the job they are doing, although they r holders of different black belt degrees. how is it possible in the first place that those persons have a black belt??? do they know the instructor and got it by the back door or what??? it was really disappointing.

[Thomas]

The key to disipline is the prescence of the role models. In a traditional system like TKD with the ranks and all that, there is a built in system of responsibility. The instructors should never have to yell or order. By their example, students should follow them. (Yeah, that sound like I lve in a dream world, doesn't it?). How to enforce it?

The color belts are the key... as students advance, they should be given more and more responsibility. Seniors should tell juniors what is expected. Most of all, all levels should emonstrate proper behavior.

In our class, usually the master runs the class. The senior instructors take over some times or are used to work work with small groups on specific topics. Small groups with a greater ratio of instructors:students is better for discipline. Sometimes senior color belts fill this role.

General ways to help discipline:


(1) Small groups with high student:instructor keeps students on task

(2) Authentic tasks with practical application is important. Also, there should not be "down time" scheduled into class... keep them workking = time on task= less discipline problems

(3) Students who need to be corrected on their behavior should be taken to the back and talked to immediately... as discreetly and privately as possible. After teaching the forms for example, have the green belts work with the yellow and the red work with the blue...

(4) Share the teaching and share the responsibility... if students feel like they give and take from class, they will have more ownership of the material.

(5) Teach the behavior you want and MODEL it in class.

[flyingblackbelt]

in general i find, found actually im not currently actively teaching, that the behavior in the dojang is fairly good. The only times i would have a problem is keeping the children lower belts undercontrold when I was the only one there and there was 20 or more of them, and even that was more of a not being able to watch all of them at once, but that wouldnt regularly happen. By the time they got higher in the ranks the students discipline was greatly improved. Ive had brown belt classes where i could hear a pin drop the entire class(of course running a class like that everytime would be make the kids lose interest, but somtimes i just liked to know that i could, especially when the lower belts were a little wild kind of like proving to myself that im making a difference). The one thing that drives me insane is actually with the adult class. there is only one adult class and as such the adults dont always have an instructor, a lot of the time they end up standing around and talking when they could be doing something more constructive. That always has and always will drive me insane.

[KickChick]

Originally posted by flyingblackbelt
The one thing that drives me insane is actually with the adult class. there is only one adult class and as such the adults dont always have an instructor, a lot of the time they end up standing around and talking when they could be doing something more constructive. That always has and always will drive me insane.

well, next time that happens, just take me to the back and talk to me immediately and discreetly or heck just tell me to start doing push ups ... that will shut me up!....
... seriously though, most of the talk concerns forms practice or having to at least do with class (most of the time)....

Good points Thomas.... especially having no " down time" ... which is the culprit for fooling around.

As far as detrimental behavior to another student or not listening to the instructor... that has to be dealt with immediately.

[flyingblackbelt]

nonono i wasnt talking to you KickChick, i know that 95% of the time your talking about forms or techniques, im talking about certain people, my dad included, that use it for a social situation a lot, which it can be, but not during class.

[KickChick]

:D ... oops forgot to add the "smilie" ;) I knew you weren't talking about me ... just joking around.

Do miss having you as an instructor though! ;)

[gojuman]

(3) Students who need to be corrected on their behavior should be taken to the back and talked to immediately... as discreetly and privately as possible. After teaching the forms for example, have the green belts work with the yellow and the red work with the blue...

I have found that a more direct approach instead of this discreet approach has a broader effect on the entire class. So, in other words if one of my students is missbehavining I repremand them on the spot ( hand out push-ups). They get the idea and the other students relalize that what they wittnessed was inapropiate behavior of a student so they tend to "behave" better.

[ptcruiser]

To the group,

in all my years of teaching, I've had to use a severe manner only once.
During sparring I noticed a 15 yr old student choking another student around his size. I stopped the sparring and demanded this student to get down on the spot and do push-ups then apologise to the other student. The student got down and did half the push-ups I ordered. I informed him that he would have to start over and re-do all push-ups. The student refused and started to leave class. He was informed that if he left not to come back. He called two weeks later and wanted to come back with the same attitude. He was banned from ever returning to this school and wished best of luck elsewhere. No other problems since to report.

You only get what you demand. Most of my students are long term students.

[Thomas]

Originally posted by gojuman
(3) Students who need to be corrected on their behavior should be taken to the back and talked to immediately... as discreetly and privately as possible. - Thomas
I have found that a more direct approach instead of this discreet approach has a broader effect on the entire class. So, in other words if one of my students is missbehavining I repremand them on the spot ( hand out push-ups). They get the idea and the other students relalize that what they wittnessed was inapropiate behavior of a student so they tend to "behave" better.

I agree with your point and it depends what you need to do. If it is just one student causing the problem, you don't need to 'punish' the whole class by railing against the behavior... this takes away from their training time and disrupts the class.

Believe it or not, discreet comments may serve you better. The student finds out what they did wrong, what is expected, and don't get humiliated infront of their peers. Especially if you are dealing with senior students (even black belts)... punishing them in full view may sap their authority and lessen their effectiveness as instructors.

This is by no means the only way... just the way I use first.

[gojuman]

You are correct. The best way to deal with "situations" is on a cases by case basis. Respect is a two way street. I administer discipline with respect of the student and their feelings and I expect the same respect in return.

[neryo_tkd]

good point!

[stoppy]

Im afraid that the key word is discipline. I found that at the academy I teach at students actually look forward to me teaching, scarey because Im one of the more traditional thinking instructors and have been acused of running my class "too military like" well that is one accusation Im glad of.

Example :

Monday I watched my brothers class (also third dan) and noticed the stances that the students were adopting. Very lathargic and slack, and this on senior grades. So in my class on tuesday I looked to my own students, and was shocked to notice the same was happening, so it was back to the drills that I was taught nearly 20 years ago, also mixing leg roatations so students were forced to think of the stance as much as the technique. After and hour they were shattered but at the end I dropped them all to give them 20 pushups (Im known for it) and all the students cracked them off in unison and counted in Korean (TOGETHER) now if I can translate that kind of attitude into poomse Ill be a happy sabum nim.

[Thomas]

All of the posts here give good ideas on what to do... and they show our different philosophies. I think most of tend to use a mix of these. For me:

(1) Because I find that a fast paced class with a great bunch of energy keeps people on task, I do a lot of the "push ups with ki-hap'ing" and loud kihaps at the end of techniques. In a large class minor minor violations can be dealt with with a standing rule... e.g. belt untied and unoticed = 10 pushups. This doesn't demean (in my opinion) and this type of disicipline encourages peer assistance in enforcement and makes it a sorta-fun thing instead of humiliating.

(2) If someone is beginning to show a bad attitude or laziness, the discreet talking to works well. If you have suggestions for class, let instructors know... if you think of a way to do something better, say it discreetly so as not to seem arrogant (just being honest). If something bothers you, say it discreetly, not in public. Discreetly coach your junior instructors and give them ideas.

(3) If you are a good role model, you will influence others. If you are senior (red belt and up), make sure you spend time working with the junior belts (rotate) so you can influence their behavior.

(4) If you are an instructor... give the utmost respect when another is teaching... do whatever they say (within safety reasons of course)... if the junior belts see another instructor hemming and hawing and not doing something, they will to. If you are not teaching and not in the group, walk around and help out... don't just sit and gab in the back. The prescence of instructors alking around keeps people on task (provided the instructors are not distracting or joking around.)

(5) In serious cases, the offender may need to be removed or banned from the class (as another posted)

[gojuman]

my perspective is dirived from the type of dojo that I was brought up in. It is not a business, but a true dojo developed and maintained for ma sake only. So, the attitude is that if you do not want to behave or coorperate in class, there is the exit door!

[Thomas]

Originally posted by gojuman
my perspective is dirived from the type of dojo that I was brought up in. It is not a business, but a true dojo developed and maintained for ma sake only. So, the attitude is that if you do not want to behave or coorperate in class, there is the exit door!

From my experience, you can always tell these as soon as you walk in the door... I absolutely love this attitude and it's great as a student in here and as an instructor. It's usually serious but once the class is comfortable together, it can be a lot of fun.

Just my personal opinion, but I found this kind of attitude at GM Pelligrini's Combat Hapkido seminars... serious and everyone working hard with ZERO discipline problems. Also had this experience with Soke Robert Morris (10th dan in JuJitsu), Sensei Keith Sapp in Norwood (NY) ,and my own master.

[gojuman]

If you follow the dojo rule that states
"Sensei's word is law, by rule of the governed" And everyone is brought up to understand the code of the Bushido, there will never be any discipline problems.

[Thomas]

I agree... but you still have to teach it... both by modelling and by overt teaching. I find that once that attitude is established (and it doesn't have to be super rigid... even a relaxed atmosphere can have th erequired discipline through respect)... it is much easier to maintain. Each new student is trained in this and continues it. The key is consistency.

I hate it when new black belts (or red belts) suddenly start acting out because they are "above the others"... that's a sure prescription for a little extra training. Somehting nice to have is a night (or class) for senior belts (black and red in our system) where te senior guys get to learn some new stuff and spend time learning how to teach... very important.

[gojuman]

I feel very fortunate to be part of the ryu that I am in. Once a month we have black belt class. Any where from 25-80 black belts ranging in experience from shodan to renshi gather to learn from our master (10th dan). we then take those lessons back to our respective dojos in the community. This atmosphere provides for a very deap and diverse ryu respecting the code of the bushido

[Thomas]

The insights, knowledge (and fun) that you get from these must be great. We are a bit unfortunate in that in our area, we really don't have a lot of black belts in our style, let alone senior ones. I'm happy you have that opportunity (and I'm jealous!).

[neryo_tkd]

i have to admit that i am green with envy as well for not having the opportunity to participate in black belt classes. i really hope that something like that starts in my area too, very soon. after reading ur post, gojuman, it got me thinking. maybe i could initiate something. u say u train with a master who is 10th dan. unfortunately, we don't have that rank around here. but if others are interested in taking part in black belt classes, maybe we could invite masters from the neighbouring countries, at least once in a while, because it's not always possible for me to travel around to take part in different seminars. it would be great, if we had that in our country. but, it's very difficult to organize something if others aren't willing to pitch in, and let's not forget the jealousy of others that can put a halt to ur plans. we'll see, i guess.

[gojuman]

Good luck. I realize by reading the various responses in this forum that the situation that I have is very unique. The Master that I have the opportunity to study with taught my sensei's sensei and in turn I am no studiing with him now as well as my own sensei. The real depth comes from the fact that the ryu has been growing for the past 30 years or so and that there are so many senior black belts all under this one 10th dan in this one area.

[munchkin]

I definitely think that the head instructor sets the tone for the dojo. It is very hard to have a friendly, co-operative club with higher belts helping lower belts if that is never modelled. I know I would hesitate to correct someone or teach without instructor's permission and if he has a very quiet teaching style and believes in letting people figure it out for themselves, who am I to start butting in?

I have found in the past that I am a very impressionable person. If those around me are goofing off and fooling around, I usually follow. I have been ashamed of how I have behaved and have made a firm commitment to better role-modeling in the future. I am an adult and a senior belt. Time for me to grow up and not be a smart aleck. You can train seriously and still have fun.

[neryo_tkd]

yes, gojuman. u r very lucky indeed. so use those classes as much as u can.

[beth]

The only behavior problems in the dojang I train at are among the younger children. Sometimes I think that it is just their age, but at other times I think that there may not be enough structure or discipline to the classes. I first started training at 10 and never acted out or drew attention to myself so I know that it is possible for children to behave properly. Sometimes I think that schools allow children to begin regular classes when they are too young and appropriate behavior cannot reasonably be expected of them. I don't know, some of the things I see kids doing at my current school I would have never seen in other schools I have trained at.
I also sometimes see senior belts acting out and that is unacceptable, regardless of age. I agree that they, along with the instructors, must set the tone and convey expectation through their own actions.

[neryo_tkd]

definitely, beth.
the kids are a different ball game. u can't expect kids to be focused for hour and half the way the adults are or have to be. that's normal and logical. but that is why there are different methods to use when working with kids.

oh, by the way, welcome to the forum!!!

[Holgate]

I think the kids also need to be taught in a diffrent kind of way. My school has a fair few kids who range from the age of 6 through to 10. Their lessons are structured in such a way as to learn the patterns but also to be taught them in a way which is fun. Disipline is there all of the time, yes they misbehave, but then kids do and they are soon pulled back into line.

I think any kids can be taught the same patterns as the adults, it's just the way of teaching them which has to be diffrent.

[Thomas]

I know what you mean about not having a "black belt class"... for a long time we didn't either. Now that we have a few black belts (and reds), we can do some senior classes. BUT, we started with a "blue belt and up" class on Wednesday nights to get it going. We worked on senior forms, sparring, and self defence as well as cross training. The classes were aklso designed to help teach students how to teach... (because with so few black and red belts, blue belts sometimes did warm-ups and supervised small groups). That is one suggestion you could make... a "senior class" made up of blues and up...

[neryo_tkd]

Thank u very much Thomas :-)
I have already started thinking about that. in my town there is only one black belt besides me. we are actually the only club in the area (south). in the northern part of the country there are tkd clubs with black belts. and we could actually organize seminars every now and then. but to be honest with u, we are having serious political problems. i don't want to get into that now, but it's enough to say that many plans don't even have a chance because of them. so, what i'm doing now is doing something about it in my club by involving coloured belts, as u urself mentioned. after that, we'll see, if i'll manage to reach a higher level and get some help and co-operation of other people.

[nunchaku8587]

they're these group of sophmores in high school that signed up at my school about a year ago and they make every class they're in a living hell, eventually my teacher got them under control, but i still hate how they disrespect the dojo by walking on the mat wihtout bowing, or mouthing off to the senior belts, or just non stop talking in lines while we're doing pad drills. after awhile i get upset and i have to use my big boy voice to tell them to be quiet, they usually are quiet after that :-D

[Holgate]

Originally posted by gojuman
(3) Students who need to be corrected on their behavior should be taken to the back and talked to immediately... as discreetly and privately as possible. After teaching the forms for example, have the green belts work with the yellow and the red work with the blue...

I have found that a more direct approach instead of this discreet approach has a broader effect on the entire class. So, in other words if one of my students is missbehavining I repremand them on the spot ( hand out push-ups). They get the idea and the other students relalize that what they wittnessed was inapropiate behavior of a student so they tend to "behave" better.

Yes but it has to remembered there is a fine line between a direct approch in telling someone off in front of the class and humiliating them which can be done if your not careful

In a football match sitution as a referee we have levels on dealing with players on the field, first there will be a quite word which can do the trick, then there will be the ceremonial word which will mean stopping the match as a free kick will be needed, then you get into card territory where they can be cautioned...a public approch and red carded which is straight dismissal from the field. Of course you don't have to follow these steps one at a time because there will be times when a straight red card is required. But the steps are there as a form of back up to help keep the disipline and often just the quite and ceremonial words are enough because other players know you are pulling a collegue down for something. It is about tact and diplomacy

[Mrs Owt]

With behaviour problems in the dojo you have to make sure they are dealt with quickly. An instructor cannot let behaviours go on for some time and then blow his top and toss people. If you notice a problem, be it with behaviour, attitude, respect to other members deal with it in a timely manner. Very often I think these things can be solved with a simple discussion because very often people aren't aware or just thought it is okay because the instructor has let such behaviours continue.

Also to be sure to have a consistent code of conduct for every member. What is not okay for one student shouldn't be okay for other students. Things like gossip, disrespect, hygiene or disruptive behaviour has to be a rule for every member. How can an instructor assume anyone understand rules of conduct or ettiquette if some are allowed to breach them but not others?

[neryo_tkd]

Originally posted by Anything
Also to be sure to have a consistent code of conduct for every member. What is not okay for one student shouldn't be okay for other students.


good point :)

[neryo_tkd]

what do instructors at ur dojo do if someone does not behave properly????

do they prefer to talk to them immediately or tell them to get down and give them 20?

[KungFuGrrrl]

When I run accross innapropriate behavior........ depends on if its personal..... I always talk to SIFU first and sometimes run it by a few close instructors after SIFU.......

If it is personal which has only been a few times I ask SIFU for a meeting with me, the offender, and SIFU in the office. I then proceed to give my opinion, my feelings and ask them why they did or said what they did..... perhaps it was a misunderstanding.

if no misunderstanding....... with SIFU'S approval I let them know this behavior is UNACCEPTABLE and WILL NOT happen again.
SIFU then backs me up and the person straightens up or gets kicked out!
SIMPLE
KFG:D

[neryo_tkd]

i kicked a kid out of my class. he is 7 and i have to say that i have never seen such a rude kid in my entire life. i couldn't believe my eyes and ears: all the cursing, showing the middle finger to others are just the beginning....
he simply can't be controlled. he is not even interested in TKD. his parents decided to sign him up because they don't know what to do with him, how to control him. that is why they wanted to take a break from him several times a week by bringing him to my club. a very wise decision, i might add!!!
i talked to them. and u know what they told me? they said that their kid needed a place where he could run around freely and get rid of that surplus energy. ha ha ha ha yeah, right!!!! maybe in another club, but definitely not in mine.

[bcullen]

Originally posted by neryo_tkd
i'm interested in what u have to say about the (in)appropriate behaviour in the dojo.

i really hate it when students start using pads and they just hit it as hard as they can with no regards to the person holding it. they don't want to listen to what their instructor has to say. it doesn't matter that their dolyo chagi is awful, that it is actually a sewo chagi or something in between. after the training some of them complain about the pain in their hips or knees etc but they don't want to accept the answer that what they are doing is not approapriate and not correct. :woo:

"i really hate it when students start using pads and they just hit it as hard as they can with no regards to the person holding it. "
No regard for self-- No regard for others. Funny how that works out.

Let this bad example be a good lesson. This students lack of patience and low self esteem are robbing him of the chance to better himself and cause injury to his joints. He does what he knows and does not want to appear weak. If he can learn patience and humility, he can learn the true value of the correct form.

If you cheat in the dojo, you will find that it is only you who has been cheated.

[neryo_tkd]

Originally posted by bcullen
If you cheat in the dojo, you will find that it is only you who has been cheated.


yes, u r right. my instructor knows how to deal with those types. i've seen such behavior at other clubs too.

it's also sh**ty when u train with somebody who tries hard and wants to learn but can't control their legs. such students are not able to extend the leg and hold the kick.

[Poop-Loops]

Originally posted by neryo_tkd
i kicked a kid out of my class. he is 7 and i have to say that i have never seen such a rude kid in my entire life. i couldn't believe my eyes and ears: all the cursing, showing the middle finger to others are just the beginning....
he simply can't be controlled. he is not even interested in TKD. his parents decided to sign him up because they don't know what to do with him, how to control him. that is why they wanted to take a break from him several times a week by bringing him to my club. a very wise decision, i might add!!!
i talked to them. and u know what they told me? they said that their kid needed a place where he could run around freely and get rid of that surplus energy. ha ha ha ha yeah, right!!!! maybe in another club, but definitely not in mine.

?

Can't you just like yell at him in a real intimidating voice? Always works in the kids' class in my Dojang. :)

PL

[neryo_tkd]

with this kid, no, it doesn't work. when his parents can't control him, who am i to accomplish that in training sessions once or twice a week.
i think that kid has some 'problems'.

[Poop-Loops]

Well, you can snap the kid in half, which I doubt his parents can do. :)

PL

[neryo_tkd]

ha ha ha very funny :D

[cjw314]

I thot so - LOL PL! :D


{edit}

Great thread - good to know the obvious mistakes to avoid.

{/edit}

[d33pthought]

I only saw one instance of actual reprimand at my dojang. These two kids--I think they were brothers--kept horseing around, and hanging from the rafters and wouldn't stop talking during pad drills. Now, my kwanjangnim wasn't about to be bothered about it, because that day's assistant instructor, a bb their own age, told them to be quiet and settle down. Then he told them straight out to shut up. By that time, one of the two listened. The one who didn't had to hold a push-up position on his knuckles for the rest of the class. He didn't, of course, but I think the point was to get him quiet, still, and out of the way.

[Twimyo Jirugi]

Almost every student in my TKD class is over 16, so we never have any discipline problems. Of course, there is some chatting during some lessons (particularly among the female students ;) ) but that's nothing major.

In conclusion: you crazy yankees :D :rolleyes: ;)

[carlos]

I saw this in the instructor thread and thought it maybe deserved a little discussion on its own.


How do you issue discipline in your class?

Do you rule the training hall with a rod of iron, or do you find that too strict and in turn restrictive on student growth?

How do you deal with persistent offenders?

Do you treat kids as adults, adults as kids or all as TKD practitioners?

Just a few questions to get us going...

[miles]

I am by no means a drill sergeant but believe you have to be pretty firm, especially with the younger students. I have found that the "praise-correct-praise" method has worked pretty well for my students.

Miles

[TraditionalTKD]

I am actually pretty easygoing with kids, unless you have one just out of control. Then I have them sit down and talk to them after whatever we are doing to make sure they understand certain behavior is unacceptable. Kids will be kids, but there must be limits.

[Taliar]

I think the important thing is to keep them engaged and reinforce positive behaviour rather than punishing bad behaviour.

Having said that pushups have their use's even if it is a bit old hat.

[Gray]

How do you issue discipline in your class?
With a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world.

[HwaRang]

the majority of our club are approximately 10-14, and whenever the kids are being unruly our instructor dishes the punishment to the whole class. even black belts
then he pits the children against all the angry high grades who have had to do the same punishments.
seems to work well :D

[exclamationmark]

"i really hate it when students start using pads and they just hit it as hard as they can with no regards to the person holding it."

There's a quite annoying 13/14 year old where i train, and sometimes there are mixed classes (adults and juniors). the person is the same rank as me, and there was tiny girl holding a pad (about 8 or 9?) which we came to- everyone else thought "she's tiny, common sense says not to make her fall over!" but this kid was bashing the hell out of the pad she was holding, and i said to them, "dude, she's only small... don't hit her pad so hard- there's plenty of other people here who can take a punch at full speed, but not her" she was literally having to keep herself up on the wall! the kid simply replied "that's my softest punch, not my fault if she cant take it"

the kid also messes about when our instructor isn't there, for example if another BB is taking the class, although they got put in their place last week for finishing a pattern and huffing and puffing, moving out of the final position when we should have been holding it. it's little subtle things that wind me up about this kid.

[neryo_tkd]

what i also don't like about certain students is that when they hold the pad and their partner is about the kick, they move the pad a bit, as if they are the target and not the pad. :woo:

and what i have to pay extra attention to is when some of my younger students hold the pad and then during the drill look around to see what other people are doing. that can be very dangerous because the pad holder can be hit. :bang:

[Another Muay Thai Guy]

and what i have to pay extra attention to is when some of my younger students hold the pad and then during the drill look around to see what other people are doing. that can be very dangerous because the pad holder can be hit. :bang:
That's called Darwinism neryo. I bet they don't look around again after they've been struck with a flush dollyo chagi. :D

[neryo_tkd]

That's called Darwinism neryo. I bet they don't look around again after they've been struck with a flush dollyo chagi. :D


well, there are kids and there are kids :D

[pulp fiction]

I hate mixed lessons with adults and kids.

I've realized that the mistakes that once I made are know the ones that bother me the most, like getting really angry when another one beats you at sparring or when someone kicks you accidentally in the groin.

[kwang gae]

I hate mixed lessons with adults and kids.

When I started out I hated them too. As an adult it often annoyed me how distracting it was having kids in the class, even generally well behaved kids.

Our Dojang is small, but we have only one class a week that is mixed adults and children. I've since realized that this class is a good thing, because the adults who are taking it are usually there because they want to train with their own children. Without that class they would never come at all, never get involved in Martial Arts.

Many of those adults help out in our tournaments and testings as volunteers helping with set up, concessions, staging, etc. They're probably never going to become hardcore martial artists, but generally they are serious and take the art seriously.

The parents know that our instructors won't put up with any foolishness, and I hear them reminding their young ones before classes, things like "answer up," and "don't fidget", "no gum in class", etc.

They (the kids) know that if the class behaves the last 15 minutes we'll play a game like TKD Dodge ball. It's a big carrot that motivates them to stay in line. :D

[neryo_tkd]

They (the kids) know that if the class behaves the last 15 minutes we'll play a game like TKD Dodge ball. It's a big carrot that motivates them to stay in line. :D

could you please provide more details about that game in our kids thread:
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26488&highlight=tiny

[Ragnarok2005]

Discipline needs to be flexible.

I was disciplined for various things. When I was a lot younger I asked my instructor if I'd got an A-Pass when he asked us all if we had questions about the grading. I was very eager to know and he said he'd tell me later. Then he told me in private never to ask that again with people present. I did get an A-Pass. But if he'd have said No it would have made me look stupid. He didn't need to have a go at me. Just to say it and I realized it was inappropriate.

The other time I've been disciplined is for hitting the dummy [BOBs] too hard and disturbing people. It's a very big Do-Jang. Enough so that while a class is on people can be at the back wrestling on the mats or working on the dummies and it's usually acceptable. However I was so caught up in hitting the dummy that I didn't notice he had the class sat down and was explaining something and he asked me to stop for a second because my hitting was disrupting him. [Obviously we can't be hitting while people are saying the oath, doing the initial courtsies or the end-lesson courtesies etc.]

But it varies. I've learned from my mistakes and I've never needed to be 'punished' and the only time my instructor has gave me push-ups was for my benefit. I kept doing high side kicks in Won-Hyo and he gave me push-ups until I corrected it. It worked.

But I understand how some people need a lot more. Kids cannot be shouted at. It only builds hostility. If you can't control a student through a respect system then in my opinion that student isn't ready to be in Taekwon-Do. My instructor will never have to explain his rules to me. If he says something then I'll do it.

[pulp fiction]

When I started out I hated them too. As an adult it often annoyed me how distracting it was having kids in the class, even generally well behaved kids.

Our Dojang is small, but we have only one class a week that is mixed adults and children. I've since realized that this class is a good thing, because the adults who are taking it are usually there because they want to train with their own children. Without that class they would never come at all, never get involved in Martial Arts.

Many of those adults help out in our tournaments and testings as volunteers helping with set up, concessions, staging, etc. They're probably never going to become hardcore martial artists, but generally they are serious and take the art seriously.

The parents know that our instructors won't put up with any foolishness, and I hear them reminding their young ones before classes, things like "answer up," and "don't fidget", "no gum in class", etc.

They (the kids) know that if the class behaves the last 15 minutes we'll play a game like TKD Dodge ball. It's a big carrot that motivates them to stay in line. :D


That's cool.

But trying to train for a tournament with kids is not good at all.

[neryo_tkd]

But trying to train for a tournament with kids is not good at all.

why not?

[pulp fiction]

why not?

Because if the dojang is small kids usually never stay in the place they are supposed to be and sometimes they can get in the way while you are kicking and you can accidentally kick them.

[HwaRang]

But I understand how some people need a lot more. Kids cannot be shouted at. It only builds hostility. If you can't control a student through a respect system then in my opinion that student isn't ready to be in Taekwon-Do. My instructor will never have to explain his rules to me. If he says something then I'll do it.

pah! you seem to forget the method of building respect through fear and punishment :D :woo:

[Tansy]

My two teachers, they do raise their voice. They don't shout, they tell the student to behave and that they are dissapointed that the student was messing about.
My teacher will make us do press ups if
(a) we are late
(b) uniform looks bad
(c) you answer them back
I never do c as I fear for my life

My last class...absoulty awfull! the kids were well horrid, sorry I like kids I have a 3 year old neice so I know children but these children were just annoying. They would come in, get out a football and kick it around into black belts who would just look at them. They would say horrible stuff in Korean to higher belts beiliving it to be funny, they messed up patterns so they could laugh at each other and you couldn't say anything because their parents would be watching. I did pull one kid into the line when he was shouting at his mate only to get an evil from its parent.

One guy used to stare at himself in the mirror all the time, adjusting his hair and his suit checking out his figure. Anouther girl would be doing her hair too while we were in the middle of training, some would try and chat to me about going with them for a drink when I was busy concentrating on what I have to do next.

I am glad I found a good level of teaching in my masters becuase slacking never pays of.

[Kwajman]

Before I moved I was paired with this little 15 yo girl who, while good technically, was a stick size wise. We'd do kicking pad drills and I'd always hold back. Till she said (laughingly) is that all you got? I about knocked her through a wall. I apologized of course and we got to be good friends....

[Xue Fang]

I think I mentioned elsewhere about my own problems as a teacher disciplining kids, but as for the discipline our instructors deal out to us...

I've never seen either of my Sabums shout at anyone. They have raised their voices, but never shout. They've never made us do press ups as punishment though (even though I think it might work with the young'uns). Things that will earn you a telling off -

1) lying down/stretching out on the floor when not doing an exercise
2) getting really angry during sparring
3) deliberately messing up patterns/line work
4) usually they don't mind if you chat to the other students, like getting to know everyone and make friends, but if you're talking too loudly, or when you're supposed to be quiet so they can talk, then you get told off
5) if they catch you doing forms you're not supposed to be (though normally they just glare at you, don't properly have words with you).

I've got told off three times in my TKD career so far:

1) When I was a whitebelt and my instructor asked me how I was doing and I said "yeah, fine" without saying sir and he got irked. I think he was just being pretend-annoyed though, because I came back the next lesson and begged forgiveness and he'd forgotten all about it.
2) When Sabum had gone off to talk to some of the lower belts during a beginners class and I got bored and started practising Do San... he caught me and gave me evils till I got back in line.
3) Sabum was teaching us Do San and I'd already learnt it, and when he got distracted and was talking to a student, I was telling the student next to me how great the pattern was and demonstrating the next couple of moves... and of course I got caught doing it and I got a right telling off about how I'm not the one teaching the class and how apparently I'm never allowed to teach people things before Sabum has personally taught it to them.

I've definitely learnt my lesson and have never done anything out of line again (though, I naively didn't know what I was doing was wrong at the time). Our instructors are so lovely and fantastic that everyone always feels completely guilty when they get told off by them. Makes for great discipline though.

[Mitch]

My last class...the kids were well horrid, They would come in, get out a football and kick it around into black belts who would just look at them. They would say horrible stuff in Korean to higher belts beiliving it to be funny, they messed up patterns so they could laugh at each other and you couldn't say anything because their parents would be watching. I did pull one kid into the line when he was shouting at his mate only to get an evil from its parent.

One guy used to stare at himself in the mirror all the time, adjusting his hair and his suit checking out his figure. Anouther girl would be doing her hair too while we were in the middle of training, some would try and chat to me about going with them for a drink when I was busy concentrating on what I have to do next.

I don't even recognise this as a TKD class. I don't care what the age of the student is, or if the parent is watching. I've had a student quit because they couldn't take my rules, and the parent absolutely supported me "You shouldn't change your standards, he's there to learn and if he's not ready he's not ready!" was the parents view.

I'm all for being understanding, but kids, parents and adult students alike have to understand that this as a TKD class and different rules apply. They are not at home. They are not at school. They are not at any other art. Thay are studying a military art and they will set their standards accordingly.

They will fall short of those standards, sure; kids more than adults, sure; and I will treat that with understanding and tolerance. But they will aspire to the tenets and behave accordingly.

Isn't the constant striving for a potentially impossible ideal part of what we do?

Mitch

[TKDradiman]

3) Sabum was teaching us Do San and I'd already learnt it, and when he got distracted and was talking to a student, I was telling the student next to me how great the pattern was and demonstrating the next couple of moves... and of course I got caught doing it and I got a right telling off about how I'm not the one teaching the class and how apparently I'm never allowed to teach people things before Sabum has personally taught it to them.

I find that a little bit off, I think that anyone of higher belt or knowledge of the pattern is a great learning tool. I am 3rd gup, but with the help of a couple of people in class who know the material inside out, I have learned all the material necessary for my black belt (other than Koryo). My instructor depends on his colored belts to be teachers to the lower belts, teaching them material and also leading by example. If we have anything mixed up like a walking stance instead of a T-stance, then he simply fixes it and we move on.

I feel this is a great way for upper belts to prepare for the days when they are actually black belts, and may have to help run or directly run a class. I am proud when my instructor singles me out to help a group of lower belts learn a pattern or any other material, I feel like I am giving back to the sport.

[Xue Fang]

I find that a little bit off, I think that anyone of higher belt or knowledge of the pattern is a great learning tool. I am 3rd gup, but with the help of a couple of people in class who know the material inside out, I have learned all the material necessary for my black belt (other than Koryo). My instructor depends on his colored belts to be teachers to the lower belts, teaching them material and also leading by example. If we have anything mixed up like a walking stance instead of a T-stance, then he simply fixes it and we move on.

I feel this is a great way for upper belts to prepare for the days when they are actually black belts, and may have to help run or directly run a class. I am proud when my instructor singles me out to help a group of lower belts learn a pattern or any other material, I feel like I am giving back to the sport.

Actually, That was when I was a greenstripe, and I was "teaching" someone of my own grade. I'd been to a few extra lessons and been practising Do San a lot at home so I pretty much had it down already, but no one else my grade did... in that lesson, we were all supposed to be learning it, including me. Anyways, I wasn't deliberately trying to be malicious or anything, I was just excited about the new pattern (you know how it is) and whisperedly explaining and demosntrating the next couple of moves to the person next to me... but I got told off for it anyways and I accept that without argument and haven't done it since.

[TKDradiman]

Ahh I see jumping the gun. :woo: And yes I know how it is, it is hard to keep the info to yourself, I think it's a good thing you were trying to help share it with others, sounds like maybe just the wrong time for it :D

[Incredible Bulk]

i hate the abuse of power :bang:

I had a red belt 15yr old slap me in the face thinking it was funny, i said to him that if he did that again i would dump him on his ass.

We are taught to respect the higher belts but i saw this show of total lack of respect for me as an indicator that he needed a lesson himself.

My outburst was heard by one of the instructors and i knew straight away my ass was in line for a beasting but the instructor just gave the red belt a wink and a look as to say "dont over step your bounds".

[Xue Fang]

Someone slapped you in the face? :eek: Wow. That sort of thing never goes on at my club. Sometimes I ask for punishments from the higher grades when I feel like I've done something wrong (like press-ups for example) and they refuse to give it to me!

But that is an interesting issue. We do have the odd arrogant advanced belt in our club too, and I'm never sure how to handle the situation because as a lower ranking belt its been drummed into me not to criticise the higher belts, yet at the same time when I see them doing something way out of line, or wrong, I also have a strong urge to take charge of the situation and discipline/correct them.

[tkd-kicker96]

My instructor gives pushups for misbehavior. She expects us to give pushups for misbehavior also. In fact, if a senior student does not discipline bad behavior, my instructor will give them both pushups (the senior belt and the one misbehaving). I don't know what it is about my instructor but even in the beginner kids classes we have very few discipline problems. I hope to have some of whatever she's got some day!