Zanbatou

[saikyou]

Have you tried to use these two-handed, big, broad sword? how long and how heavy is this? It is called a Zanbatou right? just curious.

[Cudgel]

What country is it from?

[saikyou]

japan. It is used by horseback riders to swipe their opponent's head off and to also kill the opponent's horse.

[Cudgel]

I am in serious doubt as to its historical veracity for sever4al reasons.

It sems to me that you got this monster from Rouroni Kenshin and that weapon is up there with Clouds buster sword as in it would break apart at teh handle in addition to being extremely slow and unweildy.

And even think of useing a two handed weapon from horse back is not wise as you need your entire body to weild such weapons and your horse would get in the way.

Two handed weapons were used by infantry to take out horse and other peopl with large weapons.

[saikyou]

Yes. I saw it being used by Sano. It's really cool looking. Too bad that its VERY bulky and difficult to use.

speaking of FF7, you know that 7 foot sword used by Sephiroth? A friend told me that there is a real-life version of that sword.

[Dark Blade]

No, The existed.
But they were called no-dachi 's.
It was bigger than they were, but they existed. and I don't know for a fact if they used them on horse back, but I doubt it, unless it was used temporarily like lance.

I'll look into it.

[saikyou]

I know what a nodachi looks like(i play bushido blade) I think sephiroth's sword is diffirent from a nodachi. Its more of a katana in steroids. :) ok, gonna wait for your post. thanks:)

[Dark Blade]

I ment in regards to the initial post :P

Sephiroths sword is another matter, I'm not sure if they'd make one.
Where did your friend find out about it?

[Dark Blade]

Could be, but this is what came up in a search.
Looks roughly the same size as my katana.
http://www.kamakuranet.ne.jp/~sankaido/parts/buki/japanese/zanbatou1.jpg
Maybe slightly bigger, It's hard to guess how much it is on that scale.

[saikyou]

got some info, the one being used by sephiroth is a masame. Its a katana 6 or 7 feet long. the swordsmith who made it was killed by his own creation.

the broad sword that I was talking about in the initial post does not look like a katana. If you play FF7, its similar to the buster sword used by cloud. I found a pic but this is only a toy version.

http://www.reallifecomics.com/stuff/newpics/swords2.jpg

[Cudgel]

that falls under the classification of 'SLO' or sword like object as it, and other anime weapons, are physically impossible to use due to the fact that even if they were made out of space age matierals lighter than steel they would be to heavy.
Case in point I saw a buster sword being sold that was made from aircraft aluminum and it weighed eleven pounds which is heavier than the heaviest two handed sword made out of steel ever.
another important fact is that as I stated before, a sword like that woudl break at the junction between hilt and blade for the same reason a rat tail tang would on a cheesy decorator sword. Not enough material at a high strees point

and I believe you could call it a nodachi as nodachi translates as field sword which means swords made for battle only ie very plain and un-adorned.
So both the zanbatou (the real swords) and sephiroth's sword ,which I believe IS phyically feasible you would just have to a fairly tall and strong swordsman.


DarkBlade
those sword appera to be no dachi as the proportion of handle to blade is great than that of a katana.


PS I found a school that teaches the use of larger Japanese swords (no-dachi)
http://www.hyoho.com/index.html

[saikyou]

Thanks for that. so those gigantic swords were just fiction and aint facts. now I know.

[Dark Blade]

Oooh right.
:)

[Hakko-Ryu]

didnt legends have it that gwan yu (the chinese deified war god) use a weapon weighing something like 45 kg? it was nicknamed the "horse chopper". They have a replica version of the weapon used in wushu today called the gwan dong. That weapon was used on horseback i believe, like a lance but with a sword tip? i don't know how anyone could swing a weapon that heavy though

[saikyou]

I think it is possible if the one using it is a guy who has a body of pure solid muscles and weighs 200kg. :)

[Cudgel]

you are welcome saikyou

[saikyou]

thanks. :D wel, it seems that there are tons of fictional swords out there.

[Cudgel]

yes there are sadly.

[saikyou]

legends and entertainment are the causes.

[Cudgel]

over sized anime weapons are cool but only the context they come from.

[Infesticon #1]

I've heard of a zanbatou, and yes it was in a comic.

well, it was zanbato with a horizontal line above the o, it was called the horsecutting stroke, and the guy used a Dotanuki and that had lines above the o and the u.

It was in Lone wolf and cub.

[ShadowDrakken]

actually, there is a real sword called Zanbatou, however, its NOT like the one on Kenshin. The real sword resembled an oversized katana, and was only used a short time before being decommissioned due to its unwieldy weight

references:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanbatou
http://www5f.biglobe.ne.jp/~ssbohe/two_cavalierkiller.htm

The "Buster Sword" on the other hand, is quite a bit of a joke.

There were a few large swords used in northern Europe that exceded 11 pounds, such as the claymore, but they were wielded by massive individuals and even then were fairly impractical

Edit: just a side note, oo and ou are both written as ô as a form of shorthand, that's all the little line over the o means ;)

[Dark Blade]

YODO Just posted a great weapons site!
And look what I found while I was drooling over the sharp pointy things!

http://www.weaponmasters.com/index.html?ID=1a51abe17a7482d90589982bd77b8aed&ITEM=BC-006&AD=f91d065da3cbae14f9b01209f14e17e8
Thanks the FF sword.

Here is the big sword!
http://www.weaponmasters.com/index.html?ID=1a51abe17a7482d90589982bd77b8aed&ITEM=KE-2042&AD=31d557e5d75b868cc18f006af7e131a8

[Cudgel]

Originally posted by ShadowDrakken
There were a few large swords used in northern Europe that exceded 11 pounds, such as the claymore, but they were wielded by massive individuals and even then were fairly impractical


Not true
Whiel thre were sword made of that size they were not made for battle being simple iron bars taht looked like swords, much like most the crap swords made today. They were for diplays and parades.

The heaviest twohanded swords maxed out at 6 pounds and thosea re still heavy. I KNow i handled one aobut year ago one heavy sword.
Adn the indivuals who would have weiled these massive swords were proabably around 6-6 and half feet tall weighing proabably 180 -200 pounds. not to terribly massive.

Oh yeah that Masamune sword kicks ass if i had the money I owuld buy one although Imprety sure its a nagimaki not a nodachi
and I know for a fact that nodachi does not mean great sword it means field sword.

sharpness for the buster sword is one LOL it owuld probably get cut it hit anything

[Epoch]

the no-dachi (o-dachi, masamune blades, and large swords such as the scottish claymore were not made for horseback attacks as they were so huge and very heavy as more seen in the zanbatou and claymore cases, they were used by footsoldiers where as the scots would use them to cut the feet off of a enemy horse and then decapate the enemy once he fell to the ground and got up such as seen in the movie braveheart. However the no-dachi (o-dachi) used by the japanese were so huge that during wartime a warrior who wanted to use the no-dach had to have 2 or more warriors carry the no-dachi behind him. i have seen a few actual claymores and they arent 6lbs try more like 15 or 20lbs in some cases even heavier. whereas the zanbatou would be more like 25-40lbs maybe more depending on what material the sword was made of. the 6lb sword that you held was not a actual sword it was most likely a cheap remake that some company like the Noble Collection passed off as "real" claymore. heres a link to the largest no-dachi sword found so far as they were rarely made - http://japantrip.tripod.com/nodachi/norimitsu.html remember when actual no-dachi (o-dachi's were made they were smithed by 3 or more blacsmiths at a time because the blade was so long and they had only a limited time to hammer and shape it.
oh and saikyou the no-dachi (o-dachi), claymore, zanbatou, masamune and many more hige swords arent fictional they are very real.

[Cudgel]

as I said before western swor4ds weighing more than 6 pounds were for diplay purposes only. The `15 pound swords are called bearing swords and were carried during parades because they were big nad impressive.
Just were did you get your info that 6lb swords are cheap remakes?
INorder for a sword to weigh 15 pounds it needs to be around half an inch thick, two inches wide and really friggen long. Find me a real sword that is used for real fighitng that weighs that much.

I see from your profile you study Asian MA well I study European MA so I think I am better qualified to say what is what.
But hey dont take my word for it
Go here
www.swordforum.com
or here
www.axeforum.com
or here
http://www.geocities.com/e_ball_woolley/Links.html
and then ask people who have been studying WMA longer than I have been alive.

[Epoch]

ok now we have a problem do you mean 6lb or something else beause 6lb isnt very heavy thats pretty light for a broadsword especially a claymore. I did not say 6lb swos are cheap remakes i simply stated "the sword that you said you held was most likely a remake being that it is nearly impossible to find a real claymore and not a remake" meaning it would be more feesible that if you held a claymore it was most likely a remake. As for finding you a real sword that is made for fighting thats not too hard if you are ever near scotland go to any museum that has swords and you will eventually find a broadsword maybe even a claymore lol and museums wont let anyone touch them because chances are if they have a actual claymore then it is most likely 300 years old or more and will be locked in a case. Guess what they dont weigh 6lbs because 6lbs is really light for a 6 or 7 ft long sword where the blade is nearly half an inch thick, almost 2 inches wide at the base wider in some cases. as well as the handle being close to a ft long and almost 1 inch round. being that you think actual claymore is 6lb leads me to beleuve you have never seen a real claymore. Oh and good luck finding a actual batle ready fully functional claymore or broadsword beause the only way you will find one is by paying a blacksmith anywhere between 4 -$6,000 and up. Also a batle ready katana that isnt a cheap remake starts at $5000 and i have seen them go up to $13,000. The fact that i study asain martial arts means nothing it is basically discrimination - you saying you have more of a reason to know what is what. also if you read my profile you would notice that i wrote i study these martial arts ..... and more. so before you assume find all the facts.

[Cudgel]

well as i study WMA it owuld stand to reason that I owuld know morea bout my chosen MA than some one who doesnt study it.
Hows about you follow my links and ask some questions there before you try to perptuate the 15 pound sword myth. I actually handles an antique zweihander it was longer than I was tall but not by much, and was heavy. but was due to leverage and balance adn the fact that I did not know how stand holding one.
I can find battle ready replicas taht are truley battle ready ie tempered carbon steel taht weigh less than 6 pounds.
and maybe you should get measurements of these 15 pound claymores.

[Epoch]

ok i stated a broadsword or a claymore a claymore would be heavier then any other broadsword except for a zanbatou simply because claymores are so huge. But if you lack the skills to go to a library or even look on a search engine about the size and weight of a claymore then there is no point in you even replying to this post. also i have studied alot of different martial arts forms the ones i listed on my profile werent all of them hence i wrote a few then put "and more" so once again dont assume that since i didnt list all the forms of martial arts i studied that you know what i did or didnt do. also remember scots were 6ft tall sometimes taller and 200- 250lbs almost all muscle that right there would mean they could easily weild a 6ft claymore with a 1/2 thik handle nearly and inch and a half wide and almost a 1 inch round handle which weighed 10 lbs or more. There is a common misconception about when companies say battle ready. if you found a sword in a magazine, on the internet or whatever like a claymore a broadsword that isnt hand forged (meaning made by hand by a blacksmith and not by a company who uses machines to make swords) whichc most companies who sell replica swords which they call "battle ready" are made in machines and not by hand. most sword companies like the noble collection or these cheap swords you see on the internet and in magazines are for Decoration only. Sword companies use the term battle ready as meaning a decoration but it could be used for battle if it was made right. If you have found a so called battle ready claymore i would really love to see some info and pics on your so called battle ready sword because a actual hand made claymore made right that cant take alot and not break will cost you $3,000 and up. also if you think you have found one e-mail the company or the person who makes it ask them something like - if i was to run head on against my opponent and swung this sword would the blade or handle break? Chances are if you have found a battle ready claymore that you are interested in buying that is made by a company and not by a blacksmith or swordmaker it will most likely hurt or possibly even kill you or anyone around you. also if this so called battle ready sword is actually battle ready it will cost you more then $3,000. id advise you to physically be there and watch the sword when it is formed out of metal.

[Cudgel]

so far you have given me no research to back up your claims.
and the average SCot bck in the day was around maybe 5'8" nd claymores are short for a twohanded sword so your claims of them being so heavy becasue they were 6+ft long looks kinda sad.
How much do you know about metalurgy?
I willsay it again
go to www.swordforum.com and ask some more people about your 15 pound sword

And I am well aware of the tendcy of merchants selling "battle ready" swords that would bend cutting a plastic bottle.

So if you be so kind to prove me wrong with actual research that you have gather not just your perceptions of weight, but links to reputable sites with accurate information and documentation supporting their findings.

Im not stupid and im not implying your are either. But I willnot beleive some thing just because I was told it by some one over the net unless I an find it in a book.

Would like books about hte subject I cant point in the right direction for them too. I now how use a library they are on e of my favorite places to go for books about weaponry.

here is an essay about buying replica for sparing purposes
http://www.thearma.org/essays/InterpretingReplicas.htm
its the fourth section down Weight and balance

[ShadowDrakken]

I agree that most swords are pretty light, and almost all battle-used swords were 6lbs and under. But there were a few battle-used swords heavier than that.

Quoted from another board, someone who, from reading his other posts, seems to know what they're talking about and seems to be honest about his various researching:
-- "The Largest historical exampe of a functional European sword I've ever come across in my travels was around 8 pounds... and that was for a massive flamberge bladed two-hander taller than me. (I'm 5'11")" --

Now, having been in US Army Basic Training, I know what its like to carry around a 7lb length of metal, and its definately no picnic (M16A2) so I'm quite sure weights like this were avoided. The "blood groove" in many swords is in fact to reduce the weight.

I was prompted by this conversation to do some more research, and I found a site with authentic, battle-used antique swords (ie, NOT remakes/replicas, these are hundreds of years old) and most 1-handed swords were in the 2-3lb range. It didn't list the weight on 2-handed, but given they're not twice the size, its same to presume they're 5lbs and under. One of the claymore the site has was even made out of brass, so would have been much lighter than I realized.

I apologize for being too general in my statements before.

[Cudgel]

where was this site with the antiques?
*drools at the thought of antique weapons*

[Reiki]

Just wanted to put in my comments about fighting weapons used on horseback.

I don't know how many of you can ride horses or have ridden at all, but I work and train Andalusian horses in classical dressage which was & is still the original cavalry and fighting technique used for centuries. [As taught by the Spanish Riding School, and The French Cavalry School at Saumur etc etc etc]

The Andalusian is one of the world's most ancient breeds of horses that were used in battle and are used to this day in bullfighting and other places where a very strong, highly manouvreable and brave horse is required. Most of the horses used in the Spanish Riding School have some Andalusian blood in them a number of generations back.

Please take it from me that any long sword that you have to use 2 handed on horseback is NOT a viable weapon!

:woo:

No matter how skilled the horseman and how well trained the horse is, it is virtually impossible to weild such a weapon when riding and make decent strokes and move about with an opponent without cutting your horse....

Funny thing is that horses don't like getting hit by loud clangy things [if wearing armour] ....

and they hate being hit and hurt by things [if not armoured] so it would be nigh on impossible to keep your horse in the battle once hit by a big sharp sword like this!

[ShadowDrakken]

Originally posted by Cudgel
where was this site with the antiques?
*drools at the thought of antique weapons*

I went to Encyclopedia Britanica (unfortunately requires a subscription to get any detailed information) and used ask.com to find websites for several European museums. I didn't see the URLs due to the confines of ask.com's frames, I'm sorry. I do understand that w/o definate URLs its really nothing more than heresay, so I recommend searching for historical museums sites. Can find quite a lot of information that way.

[Cudgel]

yeah a two ahnded weapon is an foot mans weapon.

Funny thing is that horses don't like getting hit by loud clangy things [if wearing armour] ....

I think war horses ie big clydesdales, are one tougher, but aht mens little and two war horses were trained to not shy away in a massed battle. Knights used their horses as a weapon.
granted it owuld take a lot of effort to train a war horse like that.
Which would explain why there worht more tahn peasants.
:D

I don't know how many of you can ride horses or have ridden at all, but I work and train Andalusian horses in classical dressage which was & is still the original cavalry and fighting technique used for centuries. [As taught by the Spanish Riding School, and The French Cavalry School at Saumur etc etc etc]

COOL but andalusians are a light horse for light cavalry and i dont think armored horses.
But then agin Im not interested to terrbily much in horse back combat. But if you want to elighten us on horseback combat I will shutup and listen.:D


do understand that w/o definate URLs its really nothing more than heresay, so I recommend searching for historical museums sites. Can find quite a lot of information that way.

well you can add the page to your favorites and them use your favorite to go back the page.

[Epoch]

some of you sre still unsure about the weight of swords that are relatively huge well i posted a link earlier that had pictures and specs about the largest no-dachis (o-dachi) found so far which are in a museum in japan, here is the link -

http://japantrip.tripod.com/nodachi/norimitsu.html

on that site it states this 1/4 of the way down the page -

Total length - 377 cm.
Nagasa (cutting edge) - 226.7 cm.
Sori (curvature) - 5.0 cm
Nakago (tang) - 151 cm.
Thickness - 2.34 cm.
Habaki (collar to hold blade in scabbard) - 5.85 cm.
Weight - 14.5 kgs.

now i dont know if i am the only one who knows how to change kgs to lbs but 14.5 kgs = 31.967028 pounds (almost 32 pounds). 377cm = 12.3687664 ft. (almost 12 and a half feet.) 377cm = 148.4251969 inches (almost 148 and a half inches.) Keep in mind those measurements are for a no-dachi.

on this link http://www.deltin.it/swords4.htm in the first row of swords shown there is a picture of a two-handed sword from Venice, Italy numbered 2162. In the last sentence of the specs - "Length overall 162cm. Weight 3700gm." 162cm = 5.314961 feet (63.779527 inches.) 3700 grams = 8.157105 pounds.

and finally on this link -

http://www.armsofvalour.com/miva/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=AOVL&Product_Code=54-077&Category_Code=S

is a picture and description of a tow handed highland sword which is 56 and a half inches long (4.708333 feet) and 12 pounds

[Epoch]

not much more to say except that people asked for evidence of huge swords which i have provided. for some reason if someone still isnt happy and thinks there is no sword that weighs more than 6 pounds take the time to look through, books, magazines, even on the net and you will come up with more swords then i have provided.

[Cudgel]

how said swords that weighed more than 6 pounds didnt exist?

I only said swords of that weight are not used for battle.
I will concede taht some swords that weighed 8 pounds could have been usd for battle but not a 10lb or heavier one.

the last sword says shipping weight which includes packaging and for most swords tahts metal rifle case or someover sturdy container. So thats more weight.

[Epoch]

actually the last sword link that i posted when you buy from them they send what you bought in a cardboard box which has padding around the sword usually bubble wrap. i bought a sword from them a few years back and it didnt come in a metal rifle case it came in a cardboard box that was filled with styrofoam and the sword itself was wrapped up in bubble wrap.. The only way you will get a sword in a metal rifle container that has rubber padding inside is if you were to go to a pawn shop that had a sword and paid the extra $5 or however mch it costs for the metal case. However when you buy a sword from a company or magazine you will never get it in a metal rifle case because the case costs $ to make and the metal case would add $ to the shipping costs and as all of us know there is no need for someone to pay more for shipping if they dont need to. the only other way you would get a sword in a metal case would be if you were to pay a person to handmake you a sword then they would either hand it to you when it was finished or give you a case for it which you might have to ask for.

[Cudgel]

Iknow of at least one site that sell sword shipped in a rifle case
http://allsaintsblades.com
granted his swords are rather light but he ships them in a rifle case

[Epoch]

Originally posted by ShadowDrakken
There were a few large swords used in northern Europe that exceded 11 pounds, such as the claymore, but they were wielded by massive individuals and even then were fairly impractical

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
posted by Cudgel


Not true
Whiel thre were sword made of that size they were not made for battle being simple iron bars taht looked like swords, much like most the crap swords made today. They were for diplays and parades.

looks like you said that cudgel. yet once again i will try and write that there was swords over 11lbs that were used in battle if you dont beleive me then why when most of the claymores were found ere they found on a battlefield in someones hand covered with blood?

for someone to say that a sword over 11 lbs was made only for show is like saying that guns kill people when in reality guns dont do anything people kill people. Also we all know the main reason for the claymore when it was comprehended back in the highlands was to make the enemy fear the size of it hence they were made to be big.

[Cudgel]

um the reason large twohanded swords were made was two fold.
Armor was getting heavier and more resistant to the lighter earlier swords. So they started grippign their one handed swords with both hands for more powerful blows.
More people were fighting on foot. As more people began fighting on foot it allowed them to use swords and other weapons that were two large to be weilded from horse back with one hand.
not because they were scary when people marched to battle they already eitehr plenty sacred as it was and couldnt get any more sacred or were hardened veterens that wouldnt be imtimtaded by the size of a weapon.


looks like you said that cudgel. yet once again i will try and write that there was swords over 11lbs that were used in battle if you dont beleive me then why when most of the claymores were found ere they found on a battlefield in someones hand covered with blood?

umm
they didnt weigh 11lbs which is what this discusion has become about. Yes big swords were used.
No big sword used for battle weighed that much.
So unless you can prove to me that an 11 pound sword was actually used in battle victoriously, you cant convince me that 11lb swords were used in battle.

And I never said a sword that big couldnt kill i said they werent used for battle. ANd in battle you need not just beabel hit one person once but a whole lot of other people as well as defend youself with your sword as you can depend on your armor alone and you have no shield.

Edited for spelling

[Cudgel]

here are links to threads that discuss swords and weight
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=25651&highlight=sword+AND+weight
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=267467&highlight=sword+AND+weight#post267467

This oine is little more esoteric as it deals mostly with swordplay with longswords and great swords.
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24186&perpage=25&highlight=sword%20and%20weight&pagenumber=3

[Epoch]

Now if i am mistaken ,which i am not, the main reason for this thread has been the weight of swords that were used in battle. I dont know how many people think swords used in battle were only 8lbs and under but i have shown eveidence of 12 nodachi's (odachis) the biggest one of which is 377cm, 148.4251969 inches, 12.3687664 ft. (almost 12 and a half feet) and weighs 14.5kilograms (31.967028 pounds) now if my math is wrong (which it isnt) 31.9 pounds is very close to 32 pounds, all of the nodachi's on the link I have provided below were used in battle most of which were found on battlefields after feudal wars and are now in museums or shrines. I have also posted the link for the site on which i found the nodachis that were used in battle and i will post it one more time seeing as the first 2 times i posted it noone seemed to take the time to look at the link. Also when this thread wasn't about a certain type of sword and its length. It was about any sword that was used in battle their weight and their length which i have provided more then enough evidence. If after my post i am still being doubted by people the only reason for that would be that they didnt take the 2 seconds to click on the link i provided and read about the 12 nodachis. Also there was many more then 12 nodachis that were made either being called masamune or nodachi there was even a masamune that was used in the coronation ceremony of the Tokugawa Shogunate which was handed down to the first Tokugawa Shogun, leyasu who reigned from 1603 - 1605, from the owner Umanosuke, after that the masamune was used in the coronation ceremony up until it was handed over to the Tokyo police at then end of WW2 in 1945.

[Epoch]

Above I wrote that the masamune was handed to leyasu from Umanosuke which it was not i apologize for typing too fast. The Honjo Masamune which was owned by Umanosuke was taken from Umanosuke after a war in the end of the 16th century in which his opponent lord Honjô Shigenaga defeated him and took the masamune. From then on lord Honjô Shigenaga sold the masamune to his younger brother Hidetsugu. Hidetsugu in turn passed the sword onto Shimazu Hyogo Yoshihiro who next passed the blade to Ieyasu, the first Tokugawa Shogun. Which from then on it was used in the coronation ceremony of every following Showgun in the Tokugawa Shogunate until it was surrendered to the Tokyo police at the end of 1945 by Tokugawa Iemasa. Here is a link to a site which briefly talks about the Tokugawa Shogunate

http://artsword.esmartweb.com/shogun.htm

the only downside of that link is that it doesnt go into detailed history.

[Cudgel]

well as you refuse to see reason I see no reason why I should continue trying to show the out right impossiblities of using a 11lb plus sword.
ADn As I will never have the misfortune of seeing you, speaking with your f2f, or sparring, your opinion doesnt mattter to me.
But one final thing from the website witht the odachi
The purpose of Ôdachi

The purpose of Ôdachi can be categorized as follows:

a) As an offering to a Shrine or Gods. Some Ôdachi were dedicated with prayer to win a war, others were placed in Shrines as legendary swords from mythology.

b) As a weapon. From explanations in old texts, such as "Heike-monogatari, Taihei-ki" tell us that Ôdachi were used by soldiers during battles.

c) As a symbol for an army. Some Ôdachi are too long for practical use. They cannot be used in a battle but it is said that they could have been used as a symbol of an army, such as flags and spears. Further research is needed to confirm this idea.

d) As a trend during a certain period. Some swords were also used for ceremonies.

e) To show the swordsmith's skill.

NOTE: Most Ôdachi were used for reason a) and b).

[Epoch]

Cudgel i dont know where you get these ideas that a smith or smiths spent anywhere from one month up to 2 years to make a sword just for it to be used as decoration. Another fact - every single nodachi on the link i posted was used in a battle or many battles after which it was either found and kept in a museum or shine or a private collector found it and then a museum or shrine acquired them. There is no feesible reason that i can come up with that you cease to recognize the fact that there is swords such as the nodachi (or odachi) that are heavier then 8lbs any anywhere from 3ft. up to 12 and a half feet long (the link i posted about the largest nodachi found so far, i will post again as it seems the one person who doesnt want to beleive that a sword of this size was made didnt take the time to look at the link) -

1. Largest nodachi found to date -

http://japantrip.tripod.com/nodachi/norimitsu.html

2. Link to nodachi gallery and brief info of every sword on the site -

http://japantrip.tripod.com/nodachi/odachi_gallery.html

If after the above link has been gone too and you still seem to accept the fact a sword being heavier then 8lbs and up to 12 and a half ft long was createdand used in battle simply take the name of one of the nodachi swords on the above link either go to a library or research the sword by typing it into a search engine like www.google.com and read about the history of the sword. If still then people cease to beleive that a sword weighing more then 8lbs and up to as long as 12 and a half ft. was created and used in battle then you should be locked up in a padded room because you are ceasing to beleive facts about the most saught after and priceless japanese artifacts that were created.

Once you get to the nodachi site, which i have posted the link to 3 times only to post it again in hopes that my point does get across that swords weighing more then 8lbs were created and there sole reason for being created was to be used in batle, look at every nodachi on that link. I have provided more then enough evidence that swords weighing more then 8lbs and up to as much as 12 and a half ft. long do exist and there main reason for being created was to be used in battle. I will proceed to post some of the evidence yet again that backs my statements -

1. http://japantrip.tripod.com/nodachi/hideyuki.html - "This Ôdachi has a chip in the cutting edge about 60cm from the base and has 3 scratches so it was most likely used in battle. Hideyuki was a great swordsmith of Bizen. This sword was commissioned by Shimizu Muneharu of Bichu Takamatsu Castle."

2. http://japantrip.tripod.com/nodachi/hoju.html - "This Ôdachi has is wider and thicker than usual. The curvature is also deeper than usual, making it look quite spectacular. The line of Hoju began possibly before the Heian era and continued into the Muromachi era." The main reason for the Hoju to make weapons whether they were swords spears or what not was to be used in battle. Which basically the Kamakura era (1185-1333) was a series of battles from the 12th century to the second quarter of the 14th century.

3. http://japantrip.tripod.com/nodachi/kanemitsu.html - "This Ôdachi displays the characteristics that were popular during the Nambokuchô period (1359). The blades changed as fighting methods did during this period. The forging of this Ôdachi is very even with no irregularities. Kanemitsu proves he was an extraordinary swordsmith. This Ôdachi was a treasure of the Uesugi family." Above it states the blades changed as did fighting methods of this period hence this odacchi was used in battle.

Now if after looking at those 3 swords i have posted above, looking at the 11 swords on the Nodachi site (http://japantrip.tripod.com/nodachi/odachi_gallery.html)
and researching the history of any nodachi sword people still cease to beleive the fact that such swords were created and used in battle those people should be moved to a distant island and not be allowed to make contact with any human being ever again for all they are doing is making people dumber as well as themselves for ceasing to beleive facts that they dont want to hear.

[Cudgel]

oK this is my last post on this topic.
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=27098
Read this but i doubt it will change your mind at all but at least you can try and sdiscuss it iwth these guys instrad of stupid ole me who cant use a library.

[Battousai323]

HEy can anyone tell me how long a zanbatou is? im building one and i need to know! thanks!

[Battousai323]

Has a zanbatou ever been succesfully mastered and did they really exsist?

[Battousai323]

I admit i did get it from Rurouni Kenshin and i was just wondering if such a thing ever existed. I tried building a wooden one but it broke a part when i swung it. so thanks for the answer!

[Cudgel]

read the thread from the begining

[Stolenbjorn]

Epoch: You seem a bit bombastic. You state that light swords are just wallhangers and dangerous. I think it is the oposite. A medieval longsvord (including Claymores) are flexible and light.

Scots were not particulary bigger than anybody else in medieval europe. Beeing a norwegian myself, a people that had strong ties to the scotts in the 900 - 1200 ad, I can for sure say that the viking sagas frequently braggs about especially big kings and heroes, but no sceletal findings in Scandinavia or England suggests that Vikings were any bigger or stronger than people elswere in Europe back then. The zweihenders -which historical ones can be found all over Europe in museums and castles and that actually was bigger than the Claymores -netther weigh more than say 3,5 kilo, and then we're talking about swords of up to 2m length -and even theese are targets of discussion on wether they were sermonial weapons or actually used in combat.

You allso state the idiocy of making swords not ment for fighting... Have you ever heard of comerse? Basic capitalism of beeing spotted and noticed, earning a name and reputation was as important in 1400 Japan and Europe as it is today. Decoration of castles using armor and weapons was very popular in Medieval europe, and don't think for a second that old swords found in Europe -even sharp ones (the nobility in europe pulled out their ancestors swords from storage, polsihed them and sharpened them during the nationalromantic period (ca.1800) -nessecarily have been used in combat.

You must neither dismiss the fact that other historical periods have empathised other traits of a weapon than we do today. A swedish Man-O'War made in the 1600's traded off several guns for tons of decoration on it's stern. It's unthinkable today to decorate F15's, it might not, had they been envented 400 years ago...

If you buy this point, then you might allso follow me on this:
To make a durable, light blade takes more effort than making a heavy durable blade. Therefore the heavy durable blade i the most likely option for the blacksmith if some nobledude orders 30 swords to decor his dininghall, don't you think? This can explain all the heavy historically blades you find around. They're ment for decoration -just as they are today, and others were made to put in the shop window.

Then you have the beheaderswords. Yes they made swords especilally meant for beheading people, and they were often more similar to woodaxes in it's function than the sword despite the similarities.

Wallhangers I've seen and swung around have all been much heavier than every "combatready" sword I've ever tried. 1handers weigh around 1kg, 2handers weigh around 2 -3 kg.

I just have one question. Do you spar with swords weighing more than 4kg's (ca.8 pounds?) Me and a friend weighing 120kg (and it's NOT fat) spar with medieval longswords, and they weigh around 2,5 kg. My sword is a replica, a Paul Binnes blade, and it have cut hundreds of plastic bottles without bending. Actually, I've cut 2 inch branches in one cut with it, and I can flex it into an "U" shape, so I say it's rather flexy AND LIGHT. Now this isn't a historical blade, but every single blacksmith that makes blades that I have met and every reenacter sais that swords could be made as light as that in medieval europe.

If we use heavier weapons, our wrists and backs would soon be ruined, and in combat, you would end up beeing so slow that an opponent with a lighter weapon will allways win.

I have unfortunaly no pages to reffer you to, so you'll probably discard my oppinions, but for the rest of you lot I'd like to share my ecperiences with medieval longsword.

[Epoch]

Stolenbjorn when did i ever state this???? - "Epoch: You seem a bit bombastic. You state that light swords are just wallhangers and dangerous. I think it is the oposite. A medieval longsvord (including Claymores) are flexible and light."

I never once stated that light swords are dangerous and wallhangers, show me where i did say that. As i have many swords some old and some replicas (im not too into replicas because as history has proven they tend to be heavier then the actual sword the replica was modeled from was). Yes some longswords are light and some are heavy (depends on your meaning of heavy i think of heavy as 20lbs or more as i have held many bearing swords that exceed 20lbs) i do have 2 claymores one is 9 lbs one is 12 lbs i have trained with both of them with a friends. i agree however that when i first swung a 9lb sword (when i was 13) my wrist was sore from swinging it as the heavier the sword the more force it takes to swing. Now after training with heavier swords i am quite used to them and my wrists arent sore anymore. In my post on page 2 when i spoke of claymores i was speaking to Cudgel (because he said this - "The heaviest twohanded swords maxed out at 6 pounds") i replied to cudgels post saying that simpy is not true as i have seen many claymores that weigh more then 6 pounds which have been used in battle, heck i have one that weighs 12lbs which i might add is a replica of a museum piece and the museum piece was used in a battle which i spoke of on this site -

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=27098

I however dont discard your opinions in fact i appreciate that you actually took the time to write something and not just look at the first few lines and discard anything i say completely (like cudgel did many times) However as you will notice on this site -

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=27098

Cudgel (Ian Wooley on sword forum) tries to say that nodachi's were never used in battle when on this page -

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=27098

He has no evidence of any kind whatsoever that any of those 2 of those sword werent used in battle. Which in fact if you follow the conversation on that page he ends up not saying anything alltogether because he knows very well he has no evidence to disprove anything i said. He also know that if he continues to discard everyhitng i say that on that forum he will make an ass out of himself because he has no proof whatsoever.

[Stolenbjorn]

Originally posted by Epoch

I never once stated that light swords are dangerous and wallhangers, show me where i did say that.

Well, it seems I must have misread you; sorry. I went back to search, but didn't find it now.

I think we can agree on this:

Some weapons are light
Some weapons are heavy

The question is: how heavy can a weapon be and still be of practical use? I think the huge japaneese blade you gave a link to must have been to cumbersome to wield, and I would from my own experience and from associates whoose oppinions I greatly respect put my mony on that this blade is either meant to be a demonstration of a given blacksmith's abilities, or meant for some seremony.

But it is impossible to prove that it was used in either way (unless you happen to have a time machine parked on the lawn)!

[Cudgel]

HEy epcoh if you wish to post my name plese SPELL it correctly.
Its WOOLLEY not WOOLEY


I never out right discarded your opinion Any ways I jusdt disagreed on whether certain swords were made to used in battle or were just exhibitons of skill.

[Epoch]

Stolenbjorn when i posted the link on this site (and on swordforums.com) - http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=27098
as i said in mypost on this site the main reason for the post entitled "zanbatou" was that someone wanted to know if it did indeed exist, how could it be used, how heavy is it and how long is it. In which someone mentioned a no-dachi (as seen on the first page of this exact thread) then someone (Cudgel on the second page) replied with this -

Originally posted by ShadowDrakken
There were a few large swords used in northern Europe that exceded 11 pounds, such as the claymore, but they were wielded by massive individuals and even then were fairly impractical

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Originally posted by Cudgel
Not true
Whiel thre were sword made of that size they were not made for battle being simple iron bars taht looked like swords, much like most the crap swords made today. They were for diplays and parades.

The heaviest twohanded swords maxed out at 6 pounds and thosea re still heavy. I KNow i handled one aobut year ago one heavy sword.
Adn the indivuals who would have weiled these massive swords were proabably around 6-6 and half feet tall weighing proabably 180 -200 pounds. not to terribly massive.


Notice above in the dircect quote from Cudgel on page 2 (of this same thread) that he says this - "The heaviest twohanded swords maxed out at 6 pounds and thosea re still heavy. I KNow i handled one aobut year ago one heavy sword." Now if we go by what cudgel says there was no such thing as a sword that exceeded 6 lbs.

In which my reply to the above statement was to show that there were swords created (ie nodachi and many, many other swords which exceeded 6 lbs in weight) Case in point as we notice on what was said by cudgel in the quote above he said this - "The heaviest twohanded swords maxed out at 6 pounds and thosea re still heavy.." Notice that nowhere in Cudgel's post did he specify if the swords he was speaking of were actually used in battle or not, he also didnt specify as to if he meant swords from all around the world or from a certain country, he simply said that the heaviest two handed swords maxxed out at 6 lbs. He didnt specify when he should have. Thus my intentions were to prove him wrong as all he would accomplish is to confuse people. Hence when i posted this nodachi link -
http://japantrip.tripod.com/nodachi/odachi_gallery.html

and then went the extra step to find the longest Nodachi on that site -

http://japantrip.tripod.com/nodachi/norimitsu.html

(Keep in mind that Cudgel never specified as to whether this so called two handed sword that maxxed out at 6 lbs was used in battle or not) (therefore from his post we gather him saying there was not a sword created which exceeded 6lbs). Now on that site the 226.7cm Norimitsu Nodachi may have been used in battle or it may not i do not know as i dont have the time to fly to Japan for no reason as nobody is allowed to touch the sword except for the museum staff. (Keep in mind my intention of showing the longest nodachi found as of yet was NOT to show it being the longest one which was used in battle, HOWEVER my intention was to show that a sword over 6lbs in weight was created and still exists today) Now on the same Nodachi site which i have provided there is 3 swords (which I have been told by the museum in which the swords are kept, also i have been told by the Nodachi Gallery, as well as 18 sword collectors who deal specifically in japanese swords That these 3 swords have bee used in battle). These are the 3 swords which i have been told over and over again have been used in battle -

1. http://japantrip.tripod.com/nodachi/hideyuki.html

2. http://japantrip.tripod.com/nodachi/hoju.html

3. http://japantrip.tripod.com/nodachi/kanemitsu.html

Now on those 3 Nodachis i e-mailed this site - http://japantrip.tripod.com/nodachi/odachi_gallery.html, i then e-mailed the museum in which those swords are kept, as well as 18 sword collectors (many of which agreed that out of those nodachi swords these 3 were used in battle) Also Stolenbjorn if you follow the conversation on this site - http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=27098
You will notice that while Cudgel is debating with me over whether or not the swords are real and whether or not the 3 nodachi i posted above were or weren't used in battle you may notice that while he is debating he never once has any proof which discards anything i have posted all he has is his opinions, which are unthoughtful and hypocritical. If you continue to follow the conversation on - http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=27098

You may notice that it gets to a point where i quiestion this so called proof that cudgel has which disproves everyhthng i have said and after questioning him he simply says nothing for he knows that all will happen is he will make a fool out of himself for he lacks any form of proof alltogether.

[Epoch]

Cudgel however your name is spelled i simply dont care because you never thought to yourself how you might be confusing people had i not straightened the problem out and proven you wrong. As for you saying you never outright disregarded my opinions you did many many times as we can see on this site as well on swordforums.com when i posted something and you made a reply, if we read over your replies (on this and swordforums.com) it comes to mind that you didnt even look at what i posted you simply tried to discard everything i said because you were wrong. Also here some advice Cudgel when you tell me to go to a site like swordforums.com its a good idea to have some evidence which disproves anything i have said.

[Stolenbjorn]

Epoch; no hard feelings, but your posts are becoming a bit long, and my english isn't that good.

I think you mean this:
Swords vary greatly in weight, but it's very unlikely that any of the heavier ones were ever used in combat as they would be both ineficcient, cause long time injuries to muscles, joints, senes and sceleton and prove fatal.

Do I understand you right?

If so, we agree.

[Epoch]

Stolenbjorn sorry about my posts being so long. Swords do vary greatly in weight i have seen 1lb 110z katanas up to 32 lb Nodachis (the longest nodachi that i posted before many many times) As for it being unlikely that any of these heavier swords were used. That would depend on your meaning of the word heavy as many people on this site obviously have a different meaning for the word heavy. To me 12lbs is nothing because i have swung the claymore i have many many times which weighs 12lbs. Whereas some people would consider anything over 6 lbs to be heavy i do not. Also keep in mind there is no physical proof that states the longswords which weigh over 20lbs were used or wren't. I agree that if someone was to go from a 3 lb blade to a 12lb blade without first training with it they would be sore and possibly even hurt themselves. But i didnt say that heavier swords werent used in war. Fact is in this thread someone doubted as to if a Nodachi existed at all i disproved that theory many times showing they were created. I even went farther as to show that some nodachis were used in battle (note i said SOME not all). Fact is the only way you could get proof as to if a sword such as the nodachi was used in battle would be to ask the museum which had the nodachi their opinion if they think it was used in battle or not.

[Stolenbjorn]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Epoch
To me 12lbs is nothing because i have swung the claymore i have many many times which weighs 12lbs. Whereas some people would consider anything over 6 lbs to be heavy i do not. Also keep in mind there is no physical proof that states the longswords which weigh over 20lbs were used or wren't. I agree that if someone was to go from a 3 lb blade to a 12lb blade without first training with it they would be sore and possibly even hurt themselves. But i didnt say that heavier swords werent used in war. Fact is in this thread someone doubted as to if a Nodachi existed at all i disproved that theory many times showing they were created. QUOTE]

Thanks to your links, I don't think anybody questions the existance of the mammoth blades! The question is wether they were used in combat, and as we agree, there's no way (exept using a time machine) that we can prove their use in combat or not. As yu say, it is when trying to define what a practical maximal swordweight is, we seem to disagree a bit.

You say you have a 12lb's. I think that equals 6 kg. How long is it? Have you tried to work out real manuals from medieval times with it? If so, I'm truely impressed. I would never manage to work through Fiore Del Libere's stances and teqnices with a sword weighing 6 kg; at least not without becoming so slow that I would have lost 99% of the fights vs. a guy with equal skills, but a blade weighing only 3 kg (6lbs)

My blade (I'm repeating myself now, I think) is 1m30cm, weighing 2,5 kg.

[Epoch]

Your right about the only way we can prove if huge blades were used in war or not would be by using a time machine or if by some chance someone documented a certain sword being used in battle. As i have stated before it depends on your meaning of the term longsword. Nodachi's are considered by many to be from 3 feet to 12 and a half feet long, and im sure if anyone checked they could find a sword which was 3 or more feet long that was used in battle. Im also positive some nodachi's were used because there is schools in Japan which teach specifically how to use longswords. The point is you would have to know where to look to find if a longsword was used in battle or not. Anyone who doubts whether any nodachi was used in war can take a look at a movie which Akira Kurosawa filmed in 1954 called "Seven Samurai" Its a rather good movie about samurais being hired by a village to protect them, In which Toshiro Mifune's weapon of choice was a 3 and a half foot long sword japanese war sword. Yes i have a 12 lb claymore that i have trained with and i am rather used to it, it is 56 inches long. However if i was to actually go into combat against someone else i would not use that sword. I would choose a katana which i am more used to and i have trained with longer then any other sword that i own. The katana i would choose is a miyamoto musashi katana at 45 inches long and weighs 2lb 15 ounces.

[Cudgel]

OK so we all seem to agree that really really big swords existed.
And that some of these big swords were used.
Am I correct in this assumption?

OK so I have a question.
Waht is the heaviest sword you think would actaully be carried into a battle field as a weapon?

Im goign to stick with 6 pounds on that even though I know of instances where 8 pounders were used as weapons, but I think that was proabaly in a duel, which is much more different than a battle taht could run on for hours.

I've seen the "Seven Samurai" its one of my favorite movies.

I train with a 3 pound grete sword that is 64 inches, Iwouldnt use in battle because well its not a metal weapon its pratice weapon, but if I was givena metal version of it I would happily wander onto a battle feild with it.


And I still think that no one would actually carry a 12 foot long sword weighing 32 pounds into battle as a weapon.

[Epoch]

id say 8-10 lbs depending on the type of sword, and the type of material it is made out of ie some metals weigh more then othes. If i had the choice o choosing a sword to go into battle with it would most likely be a japanese sword as i have trained with japanese weapons the most out of every other weapon. Also if i was to go into battle i would carry 2 swords a japanese katana (45 inches long) and 3 and a half foot nodachi much the same as the one which Toshiro Mifune uses in The Seven Samurai except with a different handle and 3 pins to connect the handle to the tang instead of 2pins.

[Stolenbjorn]

Originally posted by Epoch
Yes i have a 12 lb claymore that i have trained with and i am rather used to it, it is 56 inches long. However if i was to actually go into combat against someone else i would not use that sword. I would choose a katana which i am more used to and i have trained with longer then any other sword that i own. The katana i would choose is a miyamoto musashi katana at 45 inches long and weighs 2lb 15 ounces. [/B]

I asume you would choose the katana not only because you're better trained with it, but allso because it's lighter and thus faster.

If I tell you that blacksmiths from medieval europe could produce longswords weighing 4 - 6 pounds (2 -3 kg) and still be 56 inches long, and if you was a filthy rich noble knight (the only caste allowed to wield swords in europe) what would you choose; the 12lb's or the 6lb's?

Wether the really really long nodachi's were used, (5 - 7 feet), I would say no, unless they weighed less than 8 lbs which in Europe at least was perfectly possible with the "zweihenders". (The use of them in actual combat and not only for show (as in the swiss guards) or in duels is actually disputed eventhough the bladeweight could be as light as 4lbs... -wobbeley *******s those zweihenders; at least the one "my" blacksmith have standing in his workshop!)

[Cudgel]

why 3 pins in the handle?
AS fasr I can know actual historical katana and otehr japanese blades had one pin and rather short tang.


Hell I would pick the 6 pound sword because it wouild be CHEAPER. Why cheaper? there is half as much metal in the sword, so it ouwld stand to reason that it would cost half as much. ANd back in hte days swords werent cheap

[Epoch]

when i spoke of 3 pins holding the handle to the tang you will also notice that i was speaking of a 3 and a half foot japanese sword much the same as the one that Toshiro Mifune uses in the movie Seven samurai. If you have seen this movie you will also notice the length of the handle. Also if we take a look back in japanese history the longer swords became the more pins were used. ie nodachis use 2 and sometimes 3 pins. while tantos, small katanas, and wakizashis use one pin.

[Stolenbjorn]

Originally posted by Cudgel
Hell I would pick the 6 pound sword because it wouild be CHEAPER. Why cheaper? there is half as much metal in the sword, so it ouwld stand to reason that it would cost half as much. ANd back in hte days swords werent cheap [/B]

I disagree; the quality of the metal decides more than the actual weight; it is so today, and I don't see why it should be any different back in medieval times.

Steel is not one fixed thing; it is an (don't remember the english word; alloy?) it's a mix of different things, and to get the qualities needed to be useable as a sword, you need skill, ingredients and time.

Even I could make a sword, but I doubt that anyone would use it in battle, or pay especially much for it, even if it weighed 30 punds!

[Epoch]

I disagree as well that you cant only price a sword on the metal it is made of alone. The price of a sword didnt only depend on the metal it was made of, it also depended on the smith, ie how well they were known, and their skill. As well as if the blade is able to stand up to certain things. Stolenbjorn is right that the amount of metal present in a blade doesnt decide the price of a blade. As i can go and get a cheap pos remake of a dragon head katana for $100 which weighs 3 lbs and is the worst katana to exist because it was made out of 440 stainless steel. Or i can go and get a katana worth buying for a few hundred more which weighs only 1 lb 10 ounces. In this sense the amount of metal in a sword doesnt make that sword better.

[Cudgel]

True, I was making a very broad general statement.
But I would still think out of two swords of differing sizes or weights, the lighter sword would be cheaper.

ANd that is why I asked why 3 pins. Thank you Epoch.

[Epoch]

It depends on what kind of swords you mean, if you are speaking of a older sword and then a newer remake of that same sword, the remake will always be heavier and cost less then the original sword, such as the case as we see in the Marto swords which are made out of 440 stainless steel, versus an original Japanese sword being folded.

It also depends on the sword in question as well as the country in which you are. ie you could get a roman gladius for rather cheap which is a strong blade but it is only used in close combat situations, versus having a bigger sword like a claymore or a zwiehander which are better to not be used in close combat.

Another thing that might affect the price as i said before would be the smith (his level of skill).

As for the 3 ping thing i already aswered that question.

[Cudgel]

and the fact that 440 stainless is not the best metal to be used for a large blade like a sword, its great for knives. ANy ways.

You can use larger swords in close quarters. You can half sword, shove your quillions into some ones face he pommel any where you chose. A large sword is sword with a club, and war hammer built in.
IMHO

EDIT: YEs the skilland renown of teh smith determines the cost the weapons moreso than the materials, the same as with any product. But I think the larger sword would still cost more than a smaller sword made by the same smith, it would take longer to make and would require more materials which would increase the price further.

[Epoch]

Quite contrary to what you think a smaller weapon in close combat situations would be ideal over using a bigger weapon. Your saying this -

"You can half sword, shove your quillions into some ones face he pommel any where you chose. A large sword is sword with a club, and war hammer built in."

That paragraph is not only wrong but it discards what romans and other cultures who taught the use of smaller weapons such as the gladius acomplished in the 1st place. Also if you have a bigger weapon in a smaller room you will not only have a huge downfall on your part but it is highly unlikely you will even get close enough to "shove your quillions into some ones face" as you put it.

In close quarter combat situations it would not be ideal to have a larger sword, it in fact would be ideal to have a smaller one. Obviously mine and your meanings of close quarter combat are very different, im thinking of close combat where you have less then 5 to 6 feet to move around ie a small room, or while in a war where you have limited room because you are surrounded by people. I can put it like this so that you might comprehend what i am talking about - Have you seen Braveheart? Notice where in the beginning of one of the wars against the english Wallace has his claymore on his back yet his friend hands him the smaller sword which he uses. Notice again in Braveheart when Wallace does use his larger sword to knock the horse over and cut off the head of his opponent, after this he not only drops his larger sword but in fact he grabs a smaller blade.

Show me how it is possible that a person who uses a bigger sword like a hand and a half versus someone uses a small sword ( ie Gladius or a wakizashi) in close combat situations would win especially if they are trying to fight in a small room, not only would the bigger sword be more of a pain to swing but the person who has the smaller sword would have more of an advantage to easily defeat his opponent as smaller swords can be swung easier and faster then larger ones. Yes i can go into details of the pros of smaller swords and the cons of bigger swords in a small room but i wont as it wont make a difference whatsoever.

"But I think the larger sword would still cost more than a smaller sword made by the same smith, it would take longer to make and would require more materials which would increase the price further."

Yes they might take longer to make and they might use more materials versus smaller blades, but as history has proven time and time again the more materials that were used to make larger swords actually made the blade lighter (example - we can take a look at original blades in museums which weigh 1 maybe 2 lbs whereas the replica blades of these same swords actually weigh more, along the lines of 3lbs sometimes more then that), if you use only one material the sword will not work for very long, as you need to forge a sword out of different metals to make a good blade. If we look back in history it becomes apparent that their was not a flat rate which all smiths went by when making swords. Some charged more, some charged less. Again it depends on the smith, his talents, and the region where the sword is forged. So your paragraph doesnt prove anything. I would advise you to read up on a subject like metallurgy, so you understand what goes into the making of a sword, the materials that are used, and how it is done.

[Stolenbjorn]

Originally posted by Cudgel
YEs the skilland renown of teh smith determines the cost the weapons moreso than the materials, the same as with any product. But I think the larger sword would still cost more than a smaller sword made by the same smith, it would take longer to make and would require more materials which would increase the price further. [/B]

But then you have the american invention of the free market, demand and availebility... If the same smith have two swords made with equal qualities in any way exept that one of them weighs only 50% of what the other weighs, I bet the lightest one will have most bidders, and if the swordsmith is clever, he'll probably sell it to the highest bidder. -Sorry, but My bet is still on the lightest sword!

[Stolenbjorn]

Originally posted by Epoch
Quite contrary to what you think a smaller weapon in close combat situations would be ideal over using a bigger weapon. Your saying this -

"You can half sword, shove your quillions into some ones face he pommel any where you chose. A large sword is sword with a club, and war hammer built in."

That paragraph is not only wrong but it discards what romans and other cultures who taught the use of smaller weapons such as the gladius acomplished in the 1st place. Also if you have a bigger weapon in a smaller room you will not only have a huge downfall on your part but it is highly unlikely you will even get close enough to "shove your quillions into some ones face" as you put it.

In close quarter combat situations it would not be ideal to have a larger sword, it in fact would be ideal to have a smaller one. Obviously mine and your meanings of close quarter combat are very different, im thinking of close combat where you have less then 5 to 6 feet to move around ie a small room, or while in a war where you have limited room because you are surrounded by people. I can put it like this so that you might comprehend what i am talking about - Have you seen Braveheart? Notice where in the beginning of one of the wars against the english Wallace has his claymore on his back yet his friend hands him the smaller sword which he uses. Notice again in Braveheart when Wallace does use his larger sword to knock the horse over and cut off the head of his opponent, after this he not only drops his larger sword but in fact he grabs a smaller blade.

Show me how it is possible that a person who uses a bigger sword like a hand and a half versus someone uses a small sword ( ie Gladius or a wakizashi) in close combat situations would win especially if they are trying to fight in a small room, not only would the bigger sword be more of a pain to swing but the person who has the smaller sword would have more of an advantage to easily defeat his opponent as smaller swords can be swung easier and faster then larger ones.

We must agree on the premices when we're discussing. Yes, epoch, if you're in the middle of an epic pushing contest (which IMO is the correct term for a pre-gun battlefield), and you stay like a herring in a keg (as we say in Norway), it's no doubt that a dagger will beat gladius or longsword, hellebard and the like.)

BUT:
An italian aquaintance of me sais that he usually defeats katana opponents in duel situations, and he is modest enough to grant that statistic to the longer reach of the longsword(not letting the katanawielder coming close enought to hit him, while he hits him on the hands), and a better crossguard.

This is in duel situations, and the one with the longer weapon will allways try to keep the distance, and the one with the shortest weapon will try to close. If the one with the shorter weapon manages to close in, (as he will manage easier if fighting i a room), all is not lost for the one with the longsword, he can resort to halfswording, which might be associated with stick/stafffighting:

You grab the blade of your sword 2/3 out from the crossguard, and retain the Right hand grip on the handle.
-Imagine a steel staff 1m30cm with a crossguard that can be used as a hammer, and a pommel that can be used as a billiardceue, that is in my oppinion a reasonable diecent multitool for close quartes, or "close play" as Fiore calls it!

I don't claim that halfswording with a longsword is better than having a dagger/gladius/wakishashi, but I'm pretty sure that it's an option for the longswordwielder that is efficient enough that the outcome of the fight is an open one.

I'm actually very sceptic to the use of longswords in battles at all. (either by samurai in japan, or in europe, because of the need for space as you say, Epoch) I think the knight (remember he's got up to four squires following him into battle, carrying his equipment; allmost like the caddies of today's golf. Golf is by the way a sport that was developed in Scottland, the home of the claymore...) -used his longsword primarily in duels and on parades, and that when he was going into battle, he carried a lighter onehander with long blade, a club, a dagger, a shield(not allways, if in full plate) and a lance.

I have no example from any movies to give you an idea of how halfswording works, but I'd be supprised if there's no example of any Katanastyles that doesn't include some kind of halfswoding. My only example of somthing reminding remotely of the halfswordtexnices that Crudgel and I train on, is in the movie RObRoy, the final fight, where RobRoy grabs the streightsword/rapier and then kills the opponent. It's a bad example, but it gives you a vauge Idea of what we're talking about.

[Cudgel]

Epoch Im not saying that a LArger sword would be better than a shoprter sword in close combat, just that it wouldnt be completely helpless. I've been bested many a times by a man weilding a dagger in his off hand while i had my 64 inch gretesword. But Ive also killed the same guy countless times when he had his dagger.

[Stolenbjorn]

(I was notified on a reply on this thread, but no it seems I cannot find it. Things ****'ed a bit up for me, and now the letter I wanted to reply to has gone missing; anyway; here's my the reply to the now seemingly missing post!)

Have you (the dude that posted the now missing post) tried sparring with the weapon against people with f. instance spear/katana?

I have a distinkt feeling that the wielders of theese weapons would have to be shock troops, protected by ordinary soldiers and deployed carefully at the exact right moment. They'd need to have a lot of space, and would in return require enemies too tightly crammed to work effective counters. You say the weapon was meant as a defence against cavallery; I wonder how you think that was practiced? Have you any theories on how it would be deployed in battle?

There is a parralel weapon/principle from europe; The austrian/swiss/southgerman "Zweihenders" that allso are long swords that are supposed to have been used against pikes/horses, but no exact manuals/records of their use have survived up to this day. Some argument that theese weapons have only been for ceremonial use, a use I've suggested is valid on the Zanbatou as well, but that's just a theory, and I'm very open minded and interrested in others wiev as well:)

[Stolenbjorn]

I've allso been invlved in a discussion on swordweights with some scandinavian arhcaeologists that is remotely relevant in the heated discussion between me and mr. "Epoch". The archaeologists claim that norse swordfinds in norway (about 2000) seem to indicate that their swords were heavier and not as good balanced as I (and most re-enacters/WMA'ists) like to think. They're talking about weights ranging from 2,5lbs to 5,5lbs on pretty short onehand wikingswords. Re-enacters/WMA'ists seem to prefere swords of this type weighing around 2lbs in their everyday use. Now the discussion is; was that the normal weight on Norse swords?

But then again; we'll never be able to find out wether swords put in graves were usually symbolized and heavier (often higly decorated with gold and silver) "wallhangers", and that the "real" swords never went into the graves.

There are allso manuscripts from Norwegian highmedieval times (1050-1350) that indicates that the kings men used slightly heavier swords for training.

[Cudgel]

dont woory things fugered up for me also. It doesnt even have a post I made in response. Maybe it wopuld be best if thisd thread dies in peace?

[Infesticon #1]

won't swords typically be found on the sites of old battles? I'm such most excavations find lots of arrows/spears/swords and so on.

I'm sure that weaponry found on a battlefield would be used for fighting.

[Cudgel]

Well some of these extremely large swords were carried into battle, but not as weapons, they were battle standards.

[Stolenbjorn]

won't swords typically be found on the sites of old battles? I'm such most excavations find lots of arrows/spears/swords and so on.

I'm sure that weaponry found on a battlefield would be used for fighting.


I don't think a proper zweihenders has ever showed up on archaeological diggings of any weastern ancient battlefield: as you say, spears and arrows are the usual finds on battlesites. Hand heald weapons would be scavenged. In Denemark one has found in a moar several hundred weapons from the migration period (500-800ad), that seems to be a offering of the defeated army's weapons (and POW's) to dietys (Probably Odin) as a thanks for victory. Here there are several "vikingswords" as well as spearpoints and arrowheads.

[Hyaku]

The whole argument about using long against short is a bit of a non starter when it comes to nodachi. That's why one carries two weapons. The short can also be used to throw at someone to keep them at a distance. You work out the maai (distance/interval) and deal with it accordingly.

Around seven to eight pounds for a mounted weapon. They can be handled with "practice".

http://www.hyoho.com/Nkage1.html

[Cudgel]

I believe we had reached the conclusion that 8 pounds was the upper limit of how mucha sord can weigh. POle weaopns can weigh up to around 10 poounds I belive.
http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/cariadoc/shield_and_weapon_weights.html
This site lists several medieval and reniasance era weapons from Europe that are now found in museums.
ONly one sowrd is over 8 and that is a bearing sword ie a sword caried in a parrade made to look impressive. Much like the 30lb o-dahci refered to earlier in the thread.

And what do you mean by mounted weapon?
One used from horseback?

It must also be oted that Japanese swords tend to weigh more than a European sword of equal length.

[Hyaku]

And what do you mean by mounted weapon?
One used from horseback?

No. One with its fittings. Makes quite a difference. Mine has lead in the Tsuka.

There are limitations as to what can be done on horseback so as not to injure the horse. A lot of thrusting techniques are employed.

[Cudgel]

I had thought so but I had wishe to make sure.
Now After looking at your site, I hope I am correct in my asumtion that you are the author of the site if not well my error, I fainally actaully paid atention to the conversions of length for the swords listed. I noticed that your sword is listed at being 45.4 inches and weighing at 3.25kg or some where around 7 pounds 2 ounces that is rather hefty for its length, something I already cometed on but I feel like saying it again, Japanese styled sowrds, or rather swords made in a tradtional fasion apear to be on averae sigificantly heavier than a European sword of equal legnth. A European sword of around 45-46 inche would weigh between 2and 3 pounds and is consided by some to be one handed sowrds at that length and weight. where as a Eruopean sword of equal weight would be signifcanty longer. But that is fodder for another thread.
But to the point while a sword of 3 plus shaku wold be consideed long for Japanses swordplay its about average size for Europeanswrodplay at the same time frame, and in fact looking at some plates from mauls of the late medieval early renisance Europe some of the sowrd being shown in use are quite large. I myself sondier 4shaku or 45.4 inches to be short, but then again according to one renaisance maunal the perfect length for a one handed sword's blade is over 37 inches inlength the same for a twohanded sword.

I agree that controlling distance is important. Other wise why pick a larger sword?

[munkiejunkie]

if no one has seen this, here is a http://japantrip.tripod.com/nodachi/norimitsu.html photo of an o dachi

[Cudgel]

I belive that link has been posted already in this thread.

[Domenico]

Wow, there is a doozy of myth and misinformation out there.

Caveat the First:
Being that I know none of you personally or professionally, I'm going after the bad data, not the people posting it, so in no particular order, let us begin...

Caveat the Second:
I have no knowledge of the specifics regarding Japanese weapons of war, their tactics, techniques, or fabrication, ergo I'll limit my focus to the Western Arms that were brought in kicking and screaming into this discussion, Metallurgical data (which does not distinguish between Oriental and Occidental), and lastly, 12 years of practical study in the practice and study of Renaissance era European Weapons and Warfare, and the kinetic behavior of various weapons forms ("forms" meaning knives, swords, pole arms, etc., irrespective of the particular flavors of training with same).


“…that falls under the classification of 'SLO' or sword like object…”

Thank you for adding that word to the lexicon, as it’s impact is enormous. Folks, I sure hope you remind yourselves that referring to stats, techniques, and behavior of weapons in film, video games, and the like is kind of like comparing Apples and the sound Green makes. It’s irrelevant, impossible to examine, and rather pointless. Just my .02. If you truly want to waste your time in a pursuit of Mental Masturbation, might I recommend http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/jedicombat


http://www.weaponmasters.com/?ID=WEAPONS&ITEM=BC-006
Now *there* is a classic SLO



“a sword like that would break at the junction between hilt and blade…not enough material at a high stress point…”

Point of note, quantity of material does not necessarily a good sword (or tang) make. You can have a slender tang that will withstand the best of abuses, but the instant you add bad craftsmanship or engineering, all bets are off. If it’s got a sharp radius, it’s going to be weak, if it’s a weld, it’s going to be weak, if it hasn’t been properly heat treated to give a springier temper than say the edge, it’s going to be weak.

The “rat tails” referred to are indeed as bad as alluded to, but don’t equate the failure rate to the quantity of metal involved, it has much more to do with the *quality* of material, fabrication technique, and skill of the craftsman that will make or break a good blade, every sort of pun intended.



“…legends and entertainment are the causes.”

Too true. No disagreement here, I just wanted to see it stated again… :)



“…there were a few large swords used in northern Europe that exceeded 11 pounds, such as the claymore, but they were wielded by massive individuals and even then were fairly impractical…”

You’re suffering from the myth about the weight of two handed swords. Keep reading this thread, and all will be revealed….



“…they (Claymores) were used by foot soldiers where as the scots would use them to cut the feet off of a enemy horse and then decapitate the enemy once he fell to the ground and got up such as seen in the movie braveheart…”

Oh my, are you actually citing a Hollywood film as a testament to how things were done? First off, if you know anything about the Scots, you know that Horses are worth more than Gold (…or Tin at the very least… :) and their Battle tactics invariably include getting away with anything that isn’t nailed down…

Secondly, the two handed sword is actually a most effective tool against large masses of polearms. The billhook, halberd, and pike become the prominent tools of war from the mid 14th century through the 16th century, and the two handed swords come into their own during this period, and decline along with it. Like any sword, the 2 hander is a tool, a tool that can allow you to exert great amounts of leverage, and summarily wrestle your way through a nest of pikes, stab at the poor sots holding said pikes from a fair distance away, fairly well remove all manner of digits and hands wielding said pikes, and all in all, wreak general mayhem amongst a tightly masses group of bodies not wielding shorter, faster, or more flexible weapons.

God help some poor shmuck getting nailed from a full roundhouse swing into him by one of these blades, but that is not the way they were really utilized. Watching a Zwiehander be wielded in the manner it is suited to is like watching some Judo practitioner armed with a Barracuda… something very grounded, involving lots of leverage, momentum, and not just a bit of sharp and nasty wherever you turn… The Claymore is a similar beast, designed to plow into the masses of the English Brown Bill.

BTW, please no citing the ability of any of these blades to cleave the heads off of pikes. If you’ve ever held a 16 foot long piece of Ash that’s more than an inch in diameter, you’ll realize trying to get a cutting stroke against it is kind of like trying to catch fog. (There are more visually satisfying allusions, but they involve fornication with pasta, and are best left to the imagination)



“…i have seen a few actual claymores and they aren’t 6lbs, try more like 15 or 20lbs in some cases even heavier.”

No, what you’ve seen have either been Bearing swords, or really lousy reproductions:

Here is a classic example: http://www.starfireswords.com/cgi-bin/starfire/CLY-48.html

This blade is made of Tool Steel (A1, 5160 or O1, I can’t recall), is hand forged, and carries a lifetime guarantee by the maker. Does that make it a quality reproduction weapon? Nope, that makes it a quality SLO. This thing, at 13 pounds, in no way shape or form resembles the original weapon it attempts to mimic, and is in fact damn near unusable.


“…they were smithed by 3 or more blacksmiths at a time because the blade was so long and they had only a limited time to hammer and shape it.”

Ah, I see you’ve never swung a hammer either. You do realize that making a blade involves shaping about two inches at a time if you’re lucky, right?


“…ok now we have a problem do you mean 6lb or something else beause 6lb isnt very heavy thats pretty light for a broadsword especially a claymore.

This is going to get ugly for a bit…


“…the 6lb sword that you held was not a actual sword it was most likely a cheap remake that some company like the Noble Collection passed off as "real" claymore”

“…I did not say 6lb swords are cheap remakes i simply stated "the sword that you said you held was most likely a remake being that it is nearly impossible to find a real claymore and not a remake" meaning it would be more feasible that if you held a claymore it was most likely a remake…”

“…I never once stated that light swords are dangerous and wall hangers, show me where i did say that.”


(Umm, I think we’ve addressed what you said or not, don’t you? You get off the hook from what you said vs. what you implied, but I’d be very careful about your facts and the manner in which you present them. You strike me as an argumentative and fairly misinformed individual, and are very likely to get swatted like this again in the future).

WTF? Ummm, hi there…
My Atar Reiterschwert made by Jim Hrisoulas (http://www.atar.com/index.php?module=photoalbum&PHPWS_Album_id=1&PHPWS_Photo_op=view&PHPWS_Photo_id=9)
at 48” weighs in at just over 2.5 pounds, is capable of reducing most other blades into a saw in mere seconds, and while not an exact museum design, is essentially true to the general designs of a 16th century hand and a half sword. What part about this makes it not real?

BTW, before you even think about going there, I just wanted to apprise you that Dr. Jim (Yes, a PhD in Metallurgy) does have the distinction of being “the man who wrote the book on making swords:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/ref=pd_sitb_tog_b/104-9423343-3067162?index=books&field-keywords=Hrisoulas



“…As for finding you a real sword that is made for fighting thats not too hard if you are ever near scotland go to any museum that has swords and you will eventually find a broadsword maybe even a claymore lol and museums wont let anyone touch them because chances are if they have a actual claymore then it is most likely 300 years old or more and will be locked in a case.

Actually, most Museums are happy to allow you to handle their pieces, you may need to wear cotton gloves, and you usually need to arrange it ahead of time, but most collections are quite “handle able”

“…Guess what they dont weigh 6lbs because 6lbs is really light for a 6 or 7 ft long sword where the blade is nearly half an inch thick, almost 2 inches wide at the base wider in some cases. as well as the handle being close to a ft long and almost 1 inch round. being that you think actual claymore is 6lb leads me to beleuve you have never seen a real claymore. Oh and good luck finding a actual batle ready fully functional claymore or broadsword beause the only way you will find one is by paying a blacksmith anywhere between 4 -$6,000 and up.


Wow, you don’t see many blades up close, do you? Most European blades are *RARELY* over ¼” thick, and ½” is way off target.



“…i would really love to see some info and pics on your so called battle ready sword because a actual hand made claymore made right that cant take alot and not break will cost you $3,000 and up. also if you think you have found one e-mail the company or the person who makes it ask them something like - if i was to run head on against my opponent and swung this sword would the blade or handle break? Chances are if you have found a battle ready claymore that you are interested in buying that is made by a company and not by a blacksmith or swordmaker it will most likely hurt or possibly even kill you or anyone around you. also if this so called battle ready sword is actually battle ready it will cost you more then $3,000. id advise you to physically be there and watch the sword when it is formed out of metal.


Wow, the fear of the almighty dollar. Most bladesmiths will charge between $800-1200 for a quality forged weapon. Go check out Atar, Red Troll Forge, and others.



”…on this link http://www.deltin.it/swords4.htm
in the first row of swords shown there is a picture of a two-handed sword from Venice, Italy numbered 2162. In the last sentence of the specs - "Length overall 162cm. Weight 3700gm." 162cm = 5.314961 feet (63.779527 inches.) 3700 grams = 8.157105 pounds.”

Ummm, you do realize that this is a replica based on a Museum piece, right? That is not the weight of the original, that’s the weight of his piece. BTW, having used Fulvio’s blades for many years, let me be the first to say that while his designs are historically accurate, and his craftsmanship is durable, they are almost always about 10-15% heavier than their historical counterparts. Fulvio has a good warranty, as his wares are most often used be re-enactors that tend to abuse them, so he makes them slightly beefier than would be practical.

“…and finally on this link -
http://www.armsofvalour.com/miva/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=54-077&Category_Code=S
is a picture and description of a two handed highland sword which is 56 and a half inches long (4.708333 feet) and 12 pounds”

Again, you are quoting the weight of the Replica, as well as you are failing to notice some of the fine print… “OVERALL: 56-1/2" - slightly bigger than its historical counterpart of 54 - 1/16".

So, for starters it’s about 5% larger (which would shave off half a pound, more or less), and at $269.00 is a fairly safe bet that this is your typical Indian crafted crap, and therefore lacks the lightness of a well crafted blade due to it’s propensity to compensate with added material to counter it’s ****** fabrication. They simply hammer some leaf spring into a familiar SLO shape, and pawn it off as hand forged (Warning, it’s just as likely to be poorly made my hand as it is by machine, if not more so…).

“…I have one that weighs 12lbs which i might add is a replica of a museum piece and the museum piece was used in a battle which i spoke of on this site”


“…ok i stated a broadsword or a claymore a claymore would be heavier then any other broadsword except for a zanbatou simply because claymores are so huge. But if you lack the skills to go to a library or even look on a search engine about the size and weight of a claymore then there is no point in you even replying to this post.”


“…also remember scots were 6ft tall sometimes taller and 200- 250lbs almost all muscle that right there would mean they could easily weild a 6ft claymore with a 1/2 thik handle nearly and inch and a half wide and almost a 1 inch round handle which weighed 10 lbs or more.”

” its a good idea to have some evidence which disproves anything i have said.


If you would prefer to talk about actual historical examples and quality of craftsmanship, we shall:

http://www.claudiospage.com/15hand2.htm
Most of these blades average 4’ in length, and weigh between 3.3 and 4.7 pounds. While not the two handers of note that we started on, I think it’s safe to say that even if you were to double these blades en toto, they would still hardly exceed 8 pounds. Unfortunately, Claudio was unable to get the weights of the Claymores he has posted, and the German two handers are processional pieces, but they are still not the monstrosities of steel people imply.

Here is where I will offer some data from an excellent article that Cudgel posted on another thread. From: http://www.ejmas.com/jwma/articles/2004/jwmaart_shore_1004.htm

Anthony Shore writes:


“…The weight question! How much did the actual historic weapons known as the two handed great swords really weigh?

I addressed this question to a number of European museums and armouries and, from those that responded I learned quite a bit. Robert C. Woosnam-Savage of the Royal Armouries at Leeds writes: "The fighting two-handed sword, weighed (on average) between 5-7 lbs. I give the following three examples, randomly chosen from our own collections, which I hope are adequate to make the point:

Two-handed sword, German, c.1550 (IX.926) Weight: 7 lb 6oz.
Two-handed sword, German, dated 1529 (IX.991) Weight: 5 lb 1oz.
Two-handed sword, Scottish, mid 16th century, (IX.926) Weight: 5 lb 10oz.
(I know another of this last type, in a Glasgow Museum, that weighs in at 5 lbs exactly!)."
In an e-mail correspondence with Mr. David Edge of the Wallace Collection in London, Mr. Edge states,

"Original weapons are indeed far lighter than most people realize? 3lbs for an 'average' late-medieval cross-hilt sword, say, and 7-8 lbs for a Landsknecht two-handed sword, to give just a couple of examples from weapons in this collection. Processional two-handed swords are usually heavier, true, but rarely more than 10 lbs. The heaviest and most enormous sword in our entire Armoury only weighs 14 lbs and was probably ceremonial."
David Edge [Acting Head of Conservation, and Armoury Curator/Conservator]

Henrik Andersson, an archives librarian at the Royal Armoury of Stockholm, offered a detailed categorized list of some of their collection. Below are some of the examples in the armouries collection of two-handed weapons, their weights and dimensions and approximately when they were made or commonly used. Mr. Andersson supplied this list in metric so I have included the vitals translated into U.S. Standard.

Two-handed sword
(Germany) Fifteenth C.
Length: 1375 mm (54.21 inches)
Blade: 920 mm (36.2 inches)
Weight: 1600 gr (3.5 lbs)

Two-handed sword
(Germany) 1475-1525
Length: 1382 mm (54.40 inches)
Blade: 1055 mm (41.53 inches)
Weight: 1550 gr (3.41 lbs)

Two-handed sword
(Germany ) end of Fifteenth C.
Length: 1473 mm (58 inches)
Blade: 1066 mm (41.97 inches)
Weight: 2720 gr (5.99 lbs)

Ceremonial Two-handed sword
(Munich) 1575
Length: 1643 mm (64.69 inches)
Blade: 964 mm (37.95 inches)
Weight: 3500 gr (7.72 lbs)

Ceremonial Two-handed sword
(Germany) end of Sixteenth C.
Length: 1817 mm (71.53 inches)
Blade: 1240 mm (48.81 inches)
Weight: 3970 gr (8.75 lbs)

(Germany) end of Sixteenth C.
Length: 1893 mm (74.52 inches)
Blade: 1313 mm (51.69 inches)
Weight: 4830 gr (10.64 lbs)

Ceremonial Two-handed sword
(Germany) end of Sixteenth C.
Length: 1422 mm (55.98 inches)
Blade 1029 mm (40.51 inches)
Weight: 2700 gr (5.95 lbs)

Ceremonial Two-handed sword
(Germany) c. 1600
Length: 1275 mm (50.19 inches)
Blade: 1000 mm (39.37 inches)
Weight: 2330 gr (5.1 lbs)

One-and -a-half-handed sword
(Germany) c. 1475-1525
Length: 1153 mm (45.39 inches)
Blade: 932 mm (36.69 inches)
Weight: 1320 gr (2.91 lbs)

Two-handed sword
(Germany) c. 1500
Length: 1340 mm (52.75 inches)
Blade: 955 mm (37.6 inches)
Weight: 1390 gr (3.06 lbs)



“…also we all know the main reason for the claymore when it was comprehended back in the highlands was to make the enemy fear the size of it hence they were made to be big.”

Wow, you slay me…


”…I don’t know where you get these ideas that a smith or smiths spent anywhere from one month up to 2 years to make a sword just for it to be used as decoration.”


No, really, I’m dying here….

I’m not going to refute your Nodachi claims and citations, as I have no experience or expertise regarding these weapons, but as a rule, the larger a blade, the harder to wield. Looking at the designs of these weapons (Nodachi), I would not be surprised to find out if it is used in a manner like a staff. Holding it near the middle would seem to make the most sense (about where the handle ends and the blade begins), as it will probably be close to the balance point, and pushing 16 pounds from the rear would make the 16 pounds at the front pivot fairly well. Awesome tool, I’ll grant you that. My reason for so heartily jumping onto this is the blatant errors regarding the Western swords, which rarely go over 6 pounds.


”…Anyone who doubts whether any nodachi was used in war can take a look at a movie which Akira Kurosawa filmed in 1954 called "Seven Samurai"

Again with the film as a Primary source, you scare me, you know that…


…Yes i have a 12 lb claymore that i have trained with and i am rather used to it, it is 56 inches long. However if i was to actually go into combat against someone else i would not use that sword. I would choose a katana which i am more used to and i have trained with longer then any other sword that i own. The katana i would choose is a miyamoto musashi katana at 45 inches long and weighs 2lb 15 ounces.”

A shred of sense, I’ll give you that. Please, oh please stop thinking a 12 pound sword is meant to be used in warfare. Please? See also below, as it may help mend the rift in thinking



“…And I still think that no one would actually carry a 12 foot long sword weighing 32 pounds into battle as a weapon.”

Here I’ll have to defer to the data and suggest that they do appear mildly prolific, but I’d suggest viewing them as a SLO. I can recognize it has a “katana-esque” shape to it, but dismiss of thinking of it like a sword, and look at it more like a polearm. Now we can all be happy… :)


“… As i have many swords some old and some replicas (im not too into replicas because as history has proven they tend to be heavier then the actual sword the replica was modeled from was).”

”…To me 12lbs is nothing because i have swung the claymore i have many many times which weighs 12lbs.”

” the remake will always be heavier and cost less then the original sword, such as the case as we see in the Marto swords which are made out of 440 stainless steel, versus an original Japanese sword being folded…”

Ummm, yes and no, but I want to make sure we clarify the whys….
First, modern blades are for the most part (though certainly not always) heavier due to one simple concept, they are poorly made. They are *NOT* being used to save your life on a daily basis while walking to work, they are *NOT* being used to demark new borders in your country, they are *NOT* being used to defend the wronged, avenged the oppressed, right the wrong, or rule the world.

They are simply made for geeks like us to feel like we’re men, in touch with our Hunter/gatherer roots, in touch with our forebears, to impress chicks, or any other number of inane reasons. Simply stated, “he who makes the prettiest, cheapest, most culturally appealing, durable enough for the average idiot to not break SLO in the highest volume wins”

The second point is actually a gentle reminder to clear your mind when making comparisons. The reason the blades are different is not because one is made of 440 and the other is folded. You could fold 440 all you want, and it’s still a ****** blade, and the 440 isn’t what makes it heavy, it’s the lack of a well designed and executed blade.

Please, oh please, chant this Mantra:

“Folded <> Better, it just means it’s folded”
“5160 <> better, it just means I have more Carbon and Molybdenum in my steel”
“Hand forged <> better, it just means someone could have made all the same mistakes in a much slower manner”
“Stainless Steel = A bad choice for anything designed to hold an edge.”

Now, there are competent smiths out there, and they certainly do earn their keep, but getting a well-made blade by a competent smith isn’t as bad as it sounds, and certainly doesn’t require you to spend thousands. Jim’s blades go for $400-$800 on the simple designs, and will creep into the thousands with the Pattern welding. Check out the list of Journeymen and Master Bladesmith’s at the American Bladesmith Society: http://www.americanbladesmith.com/



“…I would advise you to read up on a subject like metallurgy, so you understand what goes into the making of a sword, the materials that are used, and how it is done.”

As would I. More importantly, I’d advise a shred more humility in your manner, maybe some practical experience making blades, and a little more exposure to the Western Sword forms and methods before you ever come swinging into a thread like this again.

Wow, 8 pages, but it was worth it… :)

D. Matthew Kelty http://www.RenaissanceWarfare.com

[Cudgel]

No wwhile I aprreciate it when one with much greater knowledge of such things posts much better information I must ask"why resurect this beast that has been long slumbering?" The person who had the strongest opposition has not been posting here for a uite a while.
But in any case welcome to MAP.

[Domenico]

My apologies. A friend had pointed me to it a few days ago, and it worked it's way into my brain. After two days, the frothing had reached it's zenith and I couldn't contain myself... :)

Besides, Hyaku demonstrated that even old threads get read now and again, and we couldn't let some dimwit's data stay unchallenged, it was a moral imperative... :)

Thank you, and aside from the singed Epoch bits, I hope you found some good data in there... :)

Take care,
Matthew

[Anthony Shore]

No wwhile I aprreciate it when one with much greater knowledge of such things posts much better information I must ask"why resurect this beast that has been long slumbering?" The person who had the strongest opposition has not been posting here for a uite a while.
But in any case welcome to MAP.

Ahhh, perhaps I can explain...Maestro Domenico was unaware of such that the originator (s) of various comments may or may not have been still active when the need to respond came over him...much as myself would have done had I not been informed ahead of time by yourself in another incarnation.

The good Maestro responded rightfully with plenty of very good and very useful information on the premise that this was still an active thread and that those involved were still tossing about the ideas expressed.

Although said originators of certain comments are no longer posting, I believe that the spirit of good information and contributions to the general knowledge pool are still welcome on this subject.

We realize that there are certain individuals who seem "impervious" to the submissions of solid, informed, verifyable data but, to those who seek such out, here it is. :cool:

[Domenico]

Maestro? MAESTRO? Sheesh, that kind of word could go to a guy's head... :)

[Anthony Shore]

Maestro? MAESTRO? Sheesh, that kind of word could go to a guy's head... :)

Hey, he's YOUR alter-ego...not mine. ;)

[Cudgel]

quite understandable
And ofcourse I found good data in there.

[Maetel]

Deleted sure, you can carry your 11lb sword to battlefield and make a swing at it, but your usual medieval battles european or japanese don't last only for 5 mins, it last for hours, why would any one try to lug around a 11lb dead weight that tires you out after swinging it for couple minutes. sure u can kill some one with one hit from that heavy sword but then what? get pinned down by lowly peasants with yari or shot dead by arrows because you're too tired from swinging your giant sword to get yourself away? lugging around a weapon that weights 11lb is simply ineffecient and stupid, you can easily trade in that weight for another 2 or 3 weapons for back up purposes, unless you're specialized in heavy weapons and are assigned such task to bash people with it carrying a inpractical weapon to the battlefield not only endanger yourself but also become a liability to your fellow soldiers, because then they'll have to watch your back more than concentrating on their own fightings.

1) Please do not say things like that about other members. 2) Please do not swear, even if the profanity filter masks it - Gaskell

[Sqaul_Leonheart]

only read the first page of the thread so I'm not sure if anyone already told you this.the zanbatou was a real weapon used in the meiji era in japan.Only 6 people in history have mastered its techniques.

and the sword sephiroth used in final fantasy VII was also a real weapon called a diye katana, not sure if I spelled that right but thay where real.

[Cudgel]

first off this thread is ancient.
Second off read the entire thread and be educated
Thrid of all back up your claims with books or legtimate websites containing this information.
Fourth the spelling would be dai katana

[splice]

Fourth the spelling would be dai katana

Fifth, if you combine the kanji for dai/ou and tou/katana, you don't get daikatana, you get daitou, which is just another word for longsword. A normal katana is a daito. No such thing as a "dai katana", except in games and books (and the minds of people with a lot of imagination).

[Cudgel]

ANd wouldnt the correct term for a longer than normal sword be o-dachi? Which is differnt from no-dachi

[clb]

seffys sword that huge katana is a real sword it is called a zwhander i may of misspelled it if so i am sry it has a 6ft blade with a 1ft handle totle is 7ft its blade is 4ins wide to really use it u cant move to much keep feet planted and swing up to down stab or slash unless you really strong you can use moves with it i am only 5'5 and 144lbs so i can move alil and swing

[pgsmith]

seffys sword that huge katana is a real sword it is called a zwhander i may of misspelled it if so i am sry it has a 6ft blade with a 1ft handle totle is 7ft its blade is 4ins wide to really use it u cant move to much keep feet planted and swing up to down stab or slash unless you really strong you can use moves with it i am only 5'5 and 144lbs so i can move alil and swing
What?
I hope you're aware that this makes no sense what so ever! :)

If you weren't aware of it, well ... your post makes no sense what so ever. Now you know.

[Aegis]

What?
I hope you're aware that this makes no sense what so ever! :)

If you weren't aware of it, well ... your post makes no sense what so ever. Now you know.
I think he meant this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zweihander

And I further think that he was comparing that to this guy's sword:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sephiroth_%28Final_Fantasy_VII%29

[Valentinez]

Sephiroth Carries The Masamune, the Sword of Life, The Murasama is a Bloodthristy Weapon [its really Ironic huh?]. Both are named after their Respected Makers. These Swords are Brothers in this respect.
Both are Nodachis, now Nodachis were carried by Fieldmen, it was a means of reaching the men on hoseback, like a polearm, but a sword. Here is the Legend of the Masamune and the Murasama.

A Legend Of Masamune and Murasama blades...


A legend tells of a test where Muramasa challenged his master, Masamune, to see who could make a finer sword. They both worked tirelessly and eventually, when both swords were finished, they decided to test the results. The contest was for each to suspend the blades in a small creek with the cutting edge facing the current. Muramasa's sword cut everything that passed its way; fish, leaves floating down the river, the very air which blew on it.

Highly impressed with his pupil's work, Masamune lowered his sword into the current and waited patiently. Not a leaf was cut, the fish swam right up to it, and the air hissed as it gently blew by the blade. After a while, Muramasa began to scoff at his master for his apparent lack of skill in his making of his sword. Smiling to himself, Masamune pulled up his sword, dried it, and sheathed it. All the while, Muramasa was heckling him for his sword's inability to cut anything.

A monk, who had been watching the whole ordeal, walked over and bowed low to the two sword masters. He then began to explain what he had seen.

"The first of the swords was by all accounts a fine sword, however it is a blood thirsty, evil blade as it doesn't discriminate as to who or what it will cut. It may just as well be cutting down butterflies as severing heads. The second was by far the finer of the two, as it doesn't needlessly cut that which is innocent and undeserving."

[Aegis]

Now THAT's a blast from the past!

[Kogusoku]

Good lord! Who on earth pulled out the stake and garlic off of this old beastie? :eek:

[Stolenbjorn]

A little plea from from a private to the mods:If ressurecting old thread is forbidden, then delete the posts. If necromancy is bad, lock old threads. I think it's quite off topic to have plenty of replies about how stupid it is to ressurect threads. IMHO, of course, and not the third reply (my reply) is neither about the topic, but about the other two previous (IMO) off topic replies.

Besides, if you're new to a forum and are actually doing your job to read through old threads before starting to post the same questions that everybody else have been posting the last week, then getting the heat from the VIP's because they've been there, done that, etc, It's not excatcly a great welcome to a forum.

Personally, I have no problem with necromancy, and as a matter of fact, I find off-topic-replies worse and more anoying than ressurections. As my hobby HEMA is all about necromancy (re-discovering old and dead european martial systems), it would be quite ironic if I was against thread ressurection...

Further off topic; this thread is the reason why I discovered MAP :) Someone posted a link to this thread on swordforum, and it caught my attention :topic:

[Aegis]

A little plea from from a private to the mods:If ressurecting old thread is forbidden, then delete the posts. If necromancy is bad, lock old threads. I think it's quite off topic to have plenty of replies about how stupid it is to ressurect threads. IMHO, of course, and not the third reply (my reply) is neither about the topic, but about the other two previous (IMO) off topic replies.

Besides, if you're new to a forum and are actually doing your job to read through old threads before starting to post the same questions that everybody else have been posting the last week, then getting the heat from the VIP's because they've been there, done that, etc, It's not excatcly a great welcome to a forum.

Personally, I have no problem with necromancy, and as a matter of fact, I find off-topic-replies worse and more anoying than ressurections. As my hobby HEMA is all about necromancy (re-discovering old and dead european martial systems), it would be quite ironic if I was against thread ressurection...

Further off topic; this thread is the reason why I discovered MAP :) Someone posted a link to this thread on swordforum, and it caught my attention :topic:
Personally I thought this was a fantastic revival of a nice old thread that I'd forgotten about, and to see it revived with a fun post was pretty cool.

As far as I'm concerned there's no problem with dragging up old threads if people want to actually discuss the topic. The issue is when someone revives a 3-year old thread to add something like "I agree" and nothing more. That's the irritating type of thread revival.

In any case, this thread still rocks :D

[Langenschwert]

As far as I'm concerned there's no problem with dragging up old threads if people want to actually discuss the topic.

I was completely unaware of this rather epic thread. Thank-you to the necromancer who revived it. To see such willful ignorance and recalcitrance (such as quoting Samurai movies as historical sources!) on the part of certain worthies way back when makes this truly a MAP classic. Best train wreck I ever saw! ;) I'm going to teach a class on swordsmanship tonight, and this thread will keep me giggly and happy all night, keeping me in good stead until we all hit the pub after training, at which point the alcohol can take over. :)

And my longswords are all about 3.5 lbs.

Best regards,

-Mark

[TheMightyMcClaw]

To weigh in on the necromancy:
Zanbatou is the Japanese pronunciation of 斩马刀 (Zhan ma dao), translating roughly as "Horse chopping saber." They, in fact, look nothing like the one in Rurouni Kenshin (pro-tip: Rurouni Kenshin is not a very good anime), but were rather like long sabers, akin to the nodachi you are no doubt familiar with. They were anticavarly weapons of the Song Dynasty (http://www.deremilitari.org/resources/articles/hanson.htm), intended, as the story goes, for cutting the legs off of charging horses. It apparently didn't work well enough to stop the Jurchens, the Liao, the Mongols, or any of the other horse-riding hooligans who conquered the Song.
http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/images/mingsword888.jpg

Furthermore, to the thread necromancer, Sephiroth does not use the Murasame. It's a sword that you can get for Cloud in Wutai.

[Polar Bear]

A little plea from from a private to the mods:If ressurecting old thread is forbidden, then delete the posts. If necromancy is bad, lock old threads. I think it's quite off topic to have plenty of replies about how stupid it is to ressurect threads. IMHO, of course, and not the third reply (my reply) is neither about the topic, but about the other two previous (IMO) off topic replies.

Besides, if you're new to a forum and are actually doing your job to read through old threads before starting to post the same questions that everybody else have been posting the last week, then getting the heat from the VIP's because they've been there, done that, etc, It's not excatcly a great welcome to a forum.

Personally, I have no problem with necromancy, and as a matter of fact, I find off-topic-replies worse and more anoying than ressurections. As my hobby HEMA is all about necromancy (re-discovering old and dead european martial systems), it would be quite ironic if I was against thread ressurection...

Further off topic; this thread is the reason why I discovered MAP :) Someone posted a link to this thread on swordforum, and it caught my attention :topic:

I think Kugo and Aegis might have got a bit lost in translation here both the comments I interpreted as mild humourous.

The Bear.

[Cudgel]

STICKY STICKY STICKY STICKY

And let me edit my horribad spelling.

ALSO MWAHAHAHA I HAZ NECROMANTIC POWERZ!!!!!!

[Ace of Clubs]

I was completely unaware of this rather epic thread. Thank-you to the necromancer who revived it. To see such willful ignorance and recalcitrance (such as quoting Samurai movies as historical sources!) on the part of certain worthies way back when makes this truly a MAP classic. Best train wreck I ever saw! ;) I'm going to teach a class on swordsmanship tonight, and this thread will keep me giggly and happy all night, keeping me in good stead until we all hit the pub after training, at which point the alcohol can take over. :)

And my longswords are all about 3.5 lbs.

Best regards,

-Mark

I'm surprised, that's pretty light. What are they made of?

I used to train with the specially designed katana that weighed around 2.5 kg. Single handed cuts were difficult and I couldn't train with it for more than an hour.

In response to the original post.

There is a japanese weapon called the bisento which can way in at around 7-10kg. Very difficult to use.

I used to train with a crowbar (the big ones designed to open manhole covers) which weighed around 10kg and a 15kg sledgehammer to prepare myself for wielding a kanabo/tetsubo (which can come in at around 15-20kg). Although later I found out that it isn't such a good idea trying to use a weapon that weighs almost 30% of my body weight.

I still have a fondness for battle hammers.

[Cudgel]

Are you for serious?

Oh wait, you be trollin'.

[adouglasmhor]

To weigh in on the necromancy:
Zanbatou is the Japanese pronunciation of 斩马刀 (Zhan ma dao), translating roughly as "Horse chopping saber." They, in fact, look nothing like the one in Rurouni Kenshin (pro-tip: Rurouni Kenshin is not a very good anime), but were rather like long sabers, akin to the nodachi you are no doubt familiar with. They were anticavarly weapons of the Song Dynasty (http://www.deremilitari.org/resources/articles/hanson.htm), intended, as the story goes, for cutting the legs off of charging horses. It apparently didn't work well enough to stop the Jurchens, the Liao, the Mongols, or any of the other horse-riding hooligans who conquered the Song.
http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/images/mingsword888.jpg

Furthermore, to the thread necromancer, Sephiroth does not use the Murasame. It's a sword that you can get for Cloud in Wutai.

Bisento

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisento

http://bujinkan.montpellier.chez-alice.fr/images/armes3.jpg

[beer_belly]

Necromancy is good!

There is a japanese weapon called the bisento which can way in at around 7-10kg. Very difficult to use.

I have never seen real evidence for the meijiandao/bisento used historically in Japan... always assumed its mythical like a ninjato - looks cool in computer games though.

[Bronze Statue]

Necromancy is good!



I have never seen real evidence for the meijiandao/bisento used historically in Japan... always assumed its mythical like a ninjato - looks cool in computer games though.

Its existence might not have been mythical (not making any claims about its use in Japan); it's possible that the practice of the weapon could have been a recent import from China on the part of Mr. Takamatsu. (Yanyuedao were real, though their associations even in extant Chinese martial arts haven't been exactly free of myths, q.v. the so-called "Guan-Dao".)

I never knew that anyone represented the weapon in video games at all, though; which games were these?

Maybe I should start a thread for people to discuss bisentojutsu on the Ninjutsu forum?

[fifthchamber]

I agree with Bronze..
The evidence of it's (Bisento) use in Japan is non-existant.. It's a Chinese weapon and was used there, but it's not mentioned in any source ouside those that come from Takamatsu (who was influenced by the Chinese arts he saw during his time there and may have added this "back history" on to what he had covered in Japan).
It's rather likely that something like a Bisento was developed into the Japanese Naginata and Nagamaki design, but a slight influence would be all I'd be prepared to give it..And it's more than possible that the Japanese Naginata was developed from something else entirely unconnected with Bisento..
(The Bujinkan also use a weapon called the "Nyoibo" (如意棒) which again has Chinese origins, rather than Japanese and very little evidence of it's being used in Japan outside of Hatsumi/Takamatsu's references...It's a weapon that seems so stupidly useless that I'd favour it's having not been used outside of anything other than Dragonball and the Chinese stories that inspired that series quite honestly)..

[beer_belly]

I never knew that anyone represented the weapon in video games at all, though; which games were these?

Not so long ago - definitely not Bleach... maybe Onepiece? great big pirate.. I dont play console games myself but I often drink beer watching others do so :).

[Wolf3001]

I would say they are based on some weapons used by both the Chinese and Japanese. There are some blades used to cut the legs off horses but I had not seen anything like it in Japan until a few years back while looking at some stuff. I love weapons and have several books containing info on arms from around the world.

[Stolenbjorn]

I would say they are based on some weapons used by both the Chinese and Japanese. There are some blades used to cut the legs off horses but I had not seen anything like it in Japan until a few years back while looking at some stuff. I love weapons and have several books containing info on arms from around the world.

I've allways wondered what it is with asian ma's (or weasterns impression of eastern-ma that leaves us to believe) that things were so specific and specialized? The martial art of wielding the nunchaku, the martial art of the staff, the martial art of drawing the sword, top ten deadly kung fu weapons, the circus-tent-peg-hammer-super-club-weapon, the beheading-frizbee... Constructing swords specifically with the aim of horselegs? How specialized does it need to be? When we do test-cutting on pigs, and cattle on Medieval shows, etc, anything can cut a horseleg, from a small onehander, upwards.

I'm pretty sure horselegs have been cut a lot of times during mankinds flirt with metallurgy, but I have problems believing that swords were designed just with that in mind; "Oh quick, come with the anti-horseleg-sword... oh, no, he turned, now I need the anti-incoming-missile-shield... oh wait, here comes a lance, give me the anti-incoming-lance-shield instead!":p

I'm not trying to make fun of anybody, and this is perhaps off topic, but I am convinced that when asians fought eachother in distant past, they followed consistant teaching and systems that could be applied outside the box. If they had swords, they were probably capable of beeing quite flexible in their use, and the only way to know how, is to play with them (unless we have manuals that tells us how they were used).

Specialized blades exists in Europe as well, you have the excecutioner-swords and proseccion swords, but what they have in common is that they are not meant for combat.

[Wolf3001]

There are several blades that are basically pole arms in China that were supposedly made for dealing with horses. Kwan Dao, Pu Dao these are a few I wouldn't really consider them to specialized due to the fact at least the Kwan Dao has hooks to trap weapons. The early Japanese weapons were basically the same as the Chinese wont get into it to much but the change in swords shape had to do a lot with the location and materials as well as who they were facing. Swords and weapons other than blades often change to to changes in armor. If you look at the evolution of armor you understand the change in weapons being used. Early Japanese used Bows a lot things change with cavalry and fighting methods changed with how wars were conducted and stuff of that nature. There are many specialized weapons.

[Cudgel]

I've allways wondered what it is with asian ma's (or weasterns impression of eastern-ma that leaves us to believe) that things were so specific and specialized? The martial art of wielding the nunchaku, the martial art of the staff, the martial art of drawing the sword, top ten deadly kung fu weapons, the circus-tent-peg-hammer-super-club-weapon, the beheading-frizbee... Constructing swords specifically with the aim of horselegs? How specialized does it need to be? When we do test-cutting on pigs, and cattle on Medieval shows, etc, anything can cut a horseleg, from a small onehander, upwards.

I'm pretty sure horselegs have been cut a lot of times during mankinds flirt with metallurgy, but I have problems believing that swords were designed just with that in mind; "Oh quick, come with the anti-horseleg-sword... oh, no, he turned, now I need the anti-incoming-missile-shield... oh wait, here comes a lance, give me the anti-incoming-lance-shield instead!":p

I'm not trying to make fun of anybody, and this is perhaps off topic, but I am convinced that when asians fought eachother in distant past, they followed consistant teaching and systems that could be applied outside the box. If they had swords, they were probably capable of beeing quite flexible in their use, and the only way to know how, is to play with them (unless we have manuals that tells us how they were used).

Specialized blades exists in Europe as well, you have the excecutioner-swords and proseccion swords, but what they have in common is that they are not meant for combat.
The more stuff you can teach the cooler you are. That probably hasn't changed in millennia.

[Stolenbjorn]

There are many specialized weapons.Oh yes of course, but an anti horse weapon?

I'd love to hear some sources.

Take the angorn of european iron age( http://www.dokpro.uio.no/Rygh/R211.jpg ), we have no sources on how it was used, and it looks highly specialized. My guess is that it's got that "fish-hook-tip" for a specialized reason, probably for it to get stuck somewhere, either a shield, a person or both, but I wouldn't dream of suggesting that it was anti right-leg weapon or anti horse-spear???

I mean, would they find another weapon if they were to kill an enemy on foot, or a donkey?

Perhaps it's just the way we formulate ourselves on forums, the european helebard was developed to give infantery a possebility to fight back if they were attacked by chavallery, and many think that it's more because the developement of the european polearms than the development of firearms that spells the doom of the classical fully plated knight. That said, noone would dream of saying that the european hellebard is an axe meant for cutting horses, it's fully capable of cutting, smashing or thrusting into whatever the wielder wants it to.

Specialized? yes.
Anti horse axe? no, no manuals dwell on "the art of cutting a horse!"

[pgsmith]

no, no manuals dwell on "the art of cutting a horse!"
You need to explore the French cooking section of the library then! :)

[Wolf3001]

Anyway the Pu Dao and other such weapons could be used against even a person but many sources say these type of pole weapons were used against horsemen to cut the legs from under a house. If you look these weapons up it shows up in many descriptions several call the Horse Cutters.

[Wolf3001]

Actually look into the Chinese Tiger Fork this was specifically made to kill tigers. The Bill or Billhook in Europe was originally made for agriculture not as a weapon. The Bill was used to cut tree branches and things but worked well against armored knights.

[Stolenbjorn]

You need to explore the French cooking section of the library then! :)

I stand corrected :D

I'd allso like to see the source for the bill originally beeing a tool turned into a weapon. Not because I doubt you, but because I like sources and to learn. And still, if what you say is correct, they never said that the billhook should only be used for cutting lances, or the legs of people wearing skirts, or somthing like that. When you look at any medieval manual, what you see is principles that are meant to be used in many situations; Fiore's manual from 1410 actually must be read a a whole, he shows basic-techniques in his wrestling-section that is essential if you are to understand his principles in his later chapter on fighting on horseback with a spear.

I should allso stress that I'm talking about tools for war, not tools for set duels under specialized rules, or tools for specialized labour. I have no problems with scissors meant for cutting textiles and scissors meant for cutting paper. It's the tendency to dissect the eastern ma's into separate arts that I'm after. I believe this is a modern phenomen, not somthing asians were adhering to in "the good old days".

[beer_belly]

Trouble is the asian arts cover a huge range in time and geography and culture with wildly differnt views to combatatives.

The Japanese have been dissecting combat into separate arts for hundreds of years - they were writing catalogues of schools 300 years ago grouping them into kenjutsu schools (with a sub category for those that specialised in fighting from the draw), spear schools, archery schools etc - the early sogo bujutsu (comprehensive system) could have military strategy, sword, staff, rope tieing, combat swimming, halberd, wrestling, firearm etc etc etc sub systems but they can treat each one a separate area for learning that influenced the other.

Hinatsu Shigetaka's 1716 classic the Honcho Bugei Shoden is the textbook example listing schools living or dead at that time, showing the mid Edo period approach.... SMR is a stick school dating back almost 400 years that has separate subsumed arts for hook and chain, sword, short stick.

So in the limited case of Japan the specialisation into separate arts is not just a modern phenomena

[Wolf3001]

I stand corrected :D

I'd allso like to see the source for the bill originally beeing a tool turned into a weapon. Not because I doubt you, but because I like sources and to learn. And still, if what you say is correct, they never said that the billhook should only be used for cutting lances, or the legs of people wearing skirts, or somthing like that. When you look at any medieval manual, what you see is principles that are meant to be used in many situations; Fiore's manual from 1410 actually must be read a a whole, he shows basic-techniques in his wrestling-section that is essential if you are to understand his principles in his later chapter on fighting on horseback with a spear.

I should allso stress that I'm talking about tools for war, not tools for set duels under specialized rules, or tools for specialized labour. I have no problems with scissors meant for cutting textiles and scissors meant for cutting paper. It's the tendency to dissect the eastern ma's into separate arts that I'm after. I believe this is a modern phenomen, not somthing asians were adhering to in "the good old days".

Let me check my book real quick lets see. Pg56 Weapons An International Encyclopedia From 5000B.C. To 2000.A.D. #7 Bill- Based on a tool for cutting hedges.

Pg114 A glossary of The Construction Decoration and Use of Arms and Armor

Bills- It started as an agricultural implement was modified for war and still survives in England as an agricultural implement. The Bill has a broad blade with a cutting edge and a variety of spikes and hooks projecting from the back and end. It is mounted on a long shaft.

[Stolenbjorn]

Trouble is the asian arts cover a huge range in time and geography and culture with wildly differnt views to combatatives.

The Japanese have been dissecting combat into separate arts for hundreds of years - they were writing catalogues of schools 300 years ago grouping them into kenjutsu schools (with a sub category for those that specialised in fighting from the draw), spear schools, archery schools etc - the early sogo bujutsu (comprehensive system) could have military strategy, sword, staff, rope tieing, combat swimming, halberd, wrestling, firearm etc etc etc sub systems but they can treat each one a separate area for learning that influenced the other.

Hinatsu Shigetaka's 1716 classic the Honcho Bugei Shoden is the textbook example listing schools living or dead at that time, showing the mid Edo period approach.... SMR is a stick school dating back almost 400 years that has separate subsumed arts for hook and chain, sword, short stick.

So in the limited case of Japan the specialisation into separate arts is not just a modern phenomena

Heh, that is what fassinates me, because in Europe, it seems that the "masters" took an entirely other approach to learning martial arts, where you wrestle to learn knife, do knife to learn lance, do lance to learn spear, do spear to learn sword, etc.

Wolf: I'm sure I sound difficult, but what are those statements based on? Speculations from the author?

I'm very sorry but I've read so many books about history, where the authors demonstrates their inability to go to the sources, but bases their statements on others' statements, or on archaeologics' inacurate speculation about the marial field (a field most archaeologics don't know much about). That's why I'm the way I am.

I'd love to see the material that makes the authors of theese books to make that conclution. I've read in books that states that the glaive is a schyte adapted for warfare, where others say that it have nothong to do with scytes, but is rather a spear-head inspired by the messer or longseax.

But I've allso seen combat manuals fielding unaltered farm-impliments, like sicle and scyte, and in those cases, I suppose one can say for sure that -not only is it a weapon inspired by a farm-tool, it actually is that very farm-tool. Perhaps the Bill is depictured in manuals like that, just like the scyte and the sicle?

Here is a link to a replica of the onehand/twohand-version from the maciovsky-bible: http://www.manningimperial.com/item.php?item_id=259&g_id=1&c_id=37 (i'm thinking about the number two from the top-picture). Is that a short bill adapted for warfare do you think?

Here is a link to a thread regarding farm-implements used for war (only the first post is in english, but it's the links I'm thinking about): http://forum.blankvaapen.org/showthread.php?t=1011

All this is perhaps a little off topic, as wether some weapons are based on farm impliments is a little beside the point; nobody have claimed that certain twohandswords from japan were farm-tools adapted for cutting horses during wartime ;)

[Wolf3001]

I understand where your coming from but I have not seen a source that doesn't describe the Bill as never being an agricultural tool. Even looking on the net I find every page that fully talks about it's use mentioning it's agricultural background. Many conscripted common folk didn't have money for swords and armor they used what they had. I tried to do a search on it not being an agricultural tool and didn't find anything saying no. Im no expert on historical arms but it's been an interest of mine for as long as I could read. I have several books on weapons and some on the uses of these weapons mostly asian. I do however own a book on German Long sword that goes over many weapons and things as well as unarmed fighting. I also own a book by John Clements over Medieval Swordsmanship.

This guy wrote the one book the other was a collection of people from the way it looks and covers more modern arms.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Cameron_Stone

European martial arts is hard to really put together because many of the books that survive I have heard were more like advertisements for masters. They didn't discus all that much and didn't show all the techniques just a sampling. As I have never studied with a group as I would like to I can't say much. I like martial arts and read a lot about other arts. I am not the type to toss out the ideas of other arts although I may not agree with the schools way of teaching them and may dislike some techniques. Anyway I am not above accepting I could be wrong but I will usually do as much research as I can. I have been through many arguments over things and have been banned from a few groups due to my thoughts and people getting angry that I keep posting reference material they didn't like.

[Wolf3001]

But I've allso seen combat manuals fielding unaltered farm-impliments, like sicle and scyte, and in those cases, I suppose one can say for sure that -not only is it a weapon inspired by a farm-tool, it actually is that very farm-tool. Perhaps the Bill is depictured in manuals like that, just like the scyte and the sicle?


YouTube - Paulus Hector Mair Exotica


I find this funny yet interesting.
YouTube - [around_china] 18 Rarely Seen Chinese Martial Art Weapons from Zhejiang

YouTube - Tuvok using Bat'leth
The guy who created this for Star Trek had some martial arts experience and supposedly came up with the idea from hooked Chinese weapons I have seen one that came close but then found the above video of a very similar weapon.

[Stolenbjorn]

My guess is that there is no place where a medieval written source states "Then we tooketh that hedge-cutter and decided it could be used as a military weapon". Therefore it will probably never be possible to prove this. It wil allso be impossible to prove that the assumption is wrong. I'll put this in the "educated guess"-category :)

It seems very plausible that this assumption is correct if there are pictures of bills beeing used as hedge-cutters that are older than pictures of bills beeing used as military weapons.

The manual you linked to is the excact one I was talking about :)

I hope you'll get the chanse to join a WMA-school someday, it's really rewarding. I've been training WMA for allmost 10 years now, and it gives you another angle on the understanding of the weapons. I allso recomend to go to gatherings, as one single "master" often have his own personal twist, willingly or unwillingly -and it's very rewarding to compare "masters". Like my "master"; Colin Richards had a background from Aikido, I think in hindsight that his take on WMA was a bit influenced by the Aikido-way of doing things. I've allso been training with others, and all have their personal twist to a given technique, not nessesarily different interpretations, more like flavours.

When I use the term "master", it's out of simplicity. Colin for instance hate beeing called master, and I've not met a single wma'er that calls himself a master. Some calls themselves a scholar at best. We're all amateurs, and the resurrected WMA-arts have only been studied for roughly 20 years, and the understanding of the manuals is in constant change. Unfortunately some "masters" get more focused on selling their product or overdoing their importance in the community, and I generally don't recomend any WMA-book, going to different teachers is much better, IMO actually printing out the original texts and pictures and researching from scratch yourself is probably better than reading some "master"'s book, as you're then interpreting directly from the source, not interpreting someones interpreting of a source. After all, all masters' undestanding of any given manual is based on them trying to understand medieval german/italian/english and 2d-pictures!

The day someone prints a WMA book that have all manuals we know of + all major interpretations of them, I might recomend a WMA-book; a mammoth of a WMA-synopsis :cool:

[pgsmith]

It would look like a set of encyclopedia! :-)
I understand exactly what you're saying about different instructors. Several years ago, there was a large gathering near where I live (it was in Lewisville), and my friend David from Mugen Dachi asked me to come by and help them out with a cutting seminar they were giving. I wandered around and watched parts of several seminars, and worked pretty closely with a number of instructors at the seminar. Several of them practiced from the same historic German manual (can't remember the name now) yet they moved and approached things in a much different manner. This is quite a bit different than the Japanese schools where you can have instructors from several different branches of the same school, and they'll all be basically the same. Details will differ, but the movement and approach will be the same, making the base school very obvious.

[Langenschwert]

European martial arts is hard to really put together because many of the books that survive I have heard were more like advertisements for masters. They didn't discus all that much and didn't show all the techniques just a sampling. As I have never studied with a group as I would like to I can't say much.

15 years ago what you're saying would be largely true. Talhoffer's 1467 book really seems more like a CV than a manual, and back in the day if that's all you had to work on, you had your hands full. Same with one of the Fiore versions, which is really quite terse despite nice images.

Manuals like Von Danzig, Ringeck and Gladiatoria are really quite detailed and much easier to interpret. Likewise for some rapier texts, since about 80% of the rapier's blade actions were preserved in classical epee anyway.

The hard part isn't the techniques themselves as many of the descriptions are quite clear. The devil is in the details, so one has to be prepared to engage in large amounts of trial and error. This really isn't a big deal, since even in the living lineage arts I do, I have to engage in trial and error to get it to work for MYSELF, even with the instructor standing right there! :)

My opinion is, if you adhere to the principles, can make the techniques work, and comply with the text, then you're probably doing it right, or as right as it gets, given the variation in the texts written by different masters describing the same technique. There is after all, a certain amount of grey area even in living arts. It's reasonable to assume it was also the case when these manuals were written.

Best regards,

-Mark

N.B. You are also cordially invited to attend my class, should you ever find yourself in Calgary. :)

[Wolf3001]

15 years ago what you're saying would be largely true. Talhoffer's 1467 book really seems more like a CV than a manual, and back in the day if that's all you had to work on, you had your hands full. Same with one of the Fiore versions, which is really quite terse despite nice images.

Manuals like Von Danzig, Ringeck and Gladiatoria are really quite detailed and much easier to interpret. Likewise for some rapier texts, since about 80% of the rapier's blade actions were preserved in classical epee anyway.

The hard part isn't the techniques themselves as many of the descriptions are quite clear. The devil is in the details, so one has to be prepared to engage in large amounts of trial and error. This really isn't a big deal, since even in the living lineage arts I do, I have to engage in trial and error to get it to work for MYSELF, even with the instructor standing right there! :)

My opinion is, if you adhere to the principles, can make the techniques work, and comply with the text, then you're probably doing it right, or as right as it gets, given the variation in the texts written by different masters describing the same technique. There is after all, a certain amount of grey area even in living arts. It's reasonable to assume it was also the case when these manuals were written.

Best regards,

-Mark

N.B. You are also cordially invited to attend my class, should you ever find yourself in Calgary. :)

If I didn't live here in a hole located in Southwest Kansas I would like to train swordsmanship Im not really into rapiers more into Sabre, Cut and Thrust style blades and long swords that sort of thing. We just don't have much options and it's hard to get things started without knowing something of what your doing. I need to try to save up and travel a bit more to some areas as my Sifu did. My Kung Fu teacher trained in various arts for many years before finding a Wing Chun school he liked. He then traveled to Australia for months at a time to learn. Unfortunately I can't do this at least not to the extent he did training everyday for a few months then coming back. If I could find a good school that not to far away I could eventually take off on my vacation time and try to talk an instructor into showing me things to start with and come back. I know a few who are interested in this stuff but the only thing they do is some odd SCA stuff. I was not impressed. They seem to lack knowledge on actual martial technique and use of a sword.

[Langenschwert]

I know a few who are interested in this stuff but the only thing they do is some odd SCA stuff. I was not impressed. They seem to lack knowledge on actual martial technique and use of a sword.

SCA can be hit or miss. Some are rather good, with a solid grasp of swordsmanship. Others... not so much. The best SCA fighters are very difficult to deal with. That being said, their training is largely optimized for SCA combat. Given the amount of force required to make an opponent call a "hit" in some kingdoms, some of them turn into "Buffalos" which is medieval German fencing lingo for a crude fencer who relies on strength.

There is the Great Plains Fechtschule in Kansas. I have no experience with them personally. Ms. Finley (the chief instructor) is certainly well-known, and her custom-made grappling jackets (some of the German wrestling uses clothing grabs) are apparently top-notch. I am not aware if she has a specialty in a particular weapon. It couldn't hurt to drop by for a visit... Topeka is certainly closer than Calgary. :)

Best regards,

-Mark

[Wolf3001]

This girl I know is from Arizona I was talking to her about things but she had no experience with the use of a long sword in a historical martial context just her SCA stuff. I was going over a few guards and things I have seen used and she was basically saying no way. I was trying to explain these things come from actual manuals and I have seen them used by everyone I could call legit. She was using some techniques that in my mind were like Boxing or something fast but not really hits that I would be to worried with if I were wearing any form of protection. She would get a slight tap on my arm and tell me it was unusable. I have cut myself rather badly in the past I told her that I may be injured but it wasn't enough to cripple me completely. I don't know I wasn't impressed and was telling her im interested in learning actual methods not sport. She told me she had done some fencing but im not sure where or how much she really knew. Im not into rapier to me it was more of a gentlemanly art or civilian method of combat I would prefer Sabre or something if I went that route. Not that if I had the chance I wouldn't try fencing.

[Cudgel]

This girl I know is from Arizona I was talking to her about things but she had no experience with the use of a long sword in a historical martial context just her SCA stuff. I was going over a few guards and things I have seen used and she was basically saying no way. I was trying to explain these things come from actual manuals and I have seen them used by everyone I could call legit. She was using some techniques that in my mind were like Boxing or something fast but not really hits that I would be to worried with if I were wearing any form of protection. She would get a slight tap on my arm and tell me it was unusable. I have cut myself rather badly in the past I told her that I may be injured but it wasn't enough to cripple me completely. I don't know I wasn't impressed and was telling her im interested in learning actual methods not sport. She told me she had done some fencing but im not sure where or how much she really knew. Im not into rapier to me it was more of a gentlemanly art or civilian method of combat I would prefer Sabre or something if I went that route. Not that if I had the chance I wouldn't try fencing.

What exactly are you going on about? If you aren't wearing armor then she was most likely pulling the blows. I assure you I could use a-historical power generation to cut deep enough into flesh to render a limb useless. I could the same with a few different historical power generation techniques. And I know a great many kingdoms in the SCA go to great pains to not cripple people, especially newcomers.

If this was while in 'armor' then she wasn't hitting you hard enough and that is the rules of how heavies is played. If you can't feel a stout enough blow then you ignore it.

You need to provide some greater context. Was this with sticks, foils, epees, schalgers, bated rapiers, bated backsword blades?