Downfall of martial arts

[Jointlock]

Bear in mind before you read this post that I have probably never been to your school or seen your school. I speak from experience. My opinion is exactly that and I welcome disagreement and the chance to prove me wrong.

What has happened to the quality of martial arts schools around the world? I have been to so many schools that I would consider McDojangs that it is no wonder why the general public looks on traditional martial arts to be impractical. So many schools cater to a family atmosphere and try to snake money out of their students for belts it's not even funny.

I believe martial arts should be taught and practiced seriously. Traditional Martial arts are a way of life not a bowling league that you go to to get away from your life. So many people are out there getting blackbelts in less than two years that couldn't defend their way out of a wet paper bag. Instructors should continually raise the standards that they hold their students to, not lower them. If you go to a school that only works out one hour 2 times a week you need to workout and practice on your own. 2 times a week is not enough to get in shape and improve you mentally. My school works out 3-4 times a week 2 hours at a time. And I still train by myself once a week. I know people have different reasons for practicing martial arts, but if your going to be an instructor you should teach the art as it was intended. If you don't you should call it by a different name so you don't confuse people with your watered version of a true martial art.

Many schools that I have been to allow there students to be undisiplined during class and do not stress any kind of a serious attitude. One school that I was recently helping out with there attempt at a mock "Hapkido class" was the worst Hapkido class I have ever seen (really the instructor learned up to green belt in Hapkido and now he made a curriculum out of that and the video tapes that he bought). Anyway we were trying to do some basic falls that MY WHITE BELTS LEARN and these people were amazed. One lady was so negative about everything that we did that she would shout out "yeah right my body won't do that" everytime we did a technique. They would always laugh and joke and not pay attention to my instructor and myself when we were trying to show them things. At the very least if someone is going to come to your class for free and show you some real Hapkido you should listen to what they have to say.

In our class for those two hours WE ARE TRAINING TO DEFEND OURSELVES. We make our attitude serious, we train hard, and we practice the equivilent of military discipline. (Both me and my instructor were Marines) We still have fun and laugh occasionally when appropriate.

Basically I'm hoping that some of you agree with me out there and Hapkido has not gone to total $h*t like most of the tae kwon do has.

[Tosh]

Originally posted by Jointlock

Basically I'm hoping that some of you agree with me out there and Hapkido has not gone to total $h*t like most of the tae kwon do has.

First off welcome and happy posting! :D

You had my vote until you said this, what a shame such a good post was ruined by the last sentance. :D

Nothing constructive in it, otherwise a good post!!

What's your view on people that learn martial arts just to be exposed to the art rather than the self defence/ "fighting" aspect.

Are martial arts simply down to defending oneself or is thier more??

[David]

Sounds like you gave that particular class and teacher something to think about, especially if you told them these 'new' techniques were basics.

I've seen in the class I attend that the serious attitude is 'optional' in that the teachers mostly say "if you don't care, I don't care". I have no problem with that unless the guy I'm trying to work with is telling me that Jet Li could kick Jackie Chan's ass or vice versa. That happens, I try to get them back to working and if that fails then I leave them there.

Another perspective: one woman who never signed up for a Marine-style session couldn't get her head around it when you tried to make her do stuff and reacted accordingly. Maybe she should do tae-bo but maybe the bad hapkido will prepare her for good hapkido later.

Oh, I dunno what I'm saying. Tired now and going to bed.

Rgds,
David

[Kof_Andy]

I see your point Jointlock. I kinda agree some of the stuff you said earlier. Most martial art school in a foreign country has exceptionally low standards for everything, compare to where it was originated from, but you have consider whos teaching here. Most martial art school in US are taugh by people thats dosent have same background as the art itself. You will have an american fellow thats teaching a chinese art, or japanese/korean art. Now I'm not saying you gotta be chinese to be good at a chinese art, or you got to be korean to be any good at taekwondo, but you gotta look at how teacher/student relation work in the good old days.

How many students can a teacher really have? Some dojo have 100's of student, but not all of them are considered to be the head master's student. Just because you pay tuition, and receive some kind of instruction from the teacher it dosent necessary mean your his student. Teacher student relation are really close. The first few months of training is like a try out for your teacher and yourself. To find out wether this teacher is right for you, and for the teacher to find out wether he wants you as a student. If your lucky enough and able to connect with your teacher, then he will begin to notice you and perhaps start training you seriously. Only those consider as a student will get like 90% of the art passed on, and the rest will learn the bases of the skill only. Generation after generation the art keep losing bit by bit, and eventually you will have today's martial art. hehe:p

[Jointlock]

Originally posted by Tosh

You had my vote until you said this, what a shame such a good post was ruined by the last sentance.

Sorry, you're right I might have gone to far with that last sentence. I am actually a 2nd dan in traditional tae kwon do and liked it very much. It is a great art when taught correctly. Like I said above I've never seen your school but I've seen quite a few. I still love to do forms and occasionally go to tournaments. But like I said most TKD schools. You can find a "Family fun center TKD school" on just about every corner now a days.

Also Originally posted by Tosh

What's your view on people that learn martial arts just to be exposed to the art rather than the self defence/ "fighting" aspect.

This might not be such an easy question to answer, and I'm not really sure what your asking, but I'll give it a shot.

I myself don't train to learn just how to fight, I don't pick fights and I avoid them whenever possible. Although it might sound like it from above I'm really an easy going guy. (;) shhh I was really just trying to get a good thread started) I train in martial arts to learn how to defend myself (obviously from above), to remain in shape, improve myself mentally and physically, and for some reason I just love it.

Also, I might have been a little Deceiving we are not just training in defenses and fighting the whole time. We also practice meditation, ki breathing, accupressure (for blackbelts), history, theories, and sometimes we just talk about our personal lives.

But to answer your question all of those things are the art. The self-defense and the mental aspects are all the things that make up the art. The students must learn and perform everything we teach or else they won't get promoted. Not just physically but academically. So, it doesn't matter what the student's reason is for being there if they don't meet the requirements they're not going to progress in rank and they're not going to learn new things. I hope I didn't sound too harsh there.

Hopefully that answered the question. If not please reiterate so I know what you mean.

[SaJooNim]

Simple analogy... I am an instructor in the art of teaching people how to color within the lines using crayons. If you dont want to use crayons, or if you think that coloring outside of the lines is what you want to learn, then I'm afraid you'll have to go train someplace else.

I've turned away many a potential student because they didnt want to learn what I had to offer... and thats fine. In my simple view, you cannot learn Hapkido unless you are equally committed to your own personal health and growth in areas such as self-defense, ki training, physical conditioning, discipline, history, etiquette, etc. You may come in just wanting to lose a few pounds, but in order to stay beyond a month or two, you'll learn about Korean history, you'll learn how to effectively defend yourself, you'll be subjected to some fairly extreme physical conditioning, you'll be required to memorize all rank requirements and be able to demonstrate them with above average proficiency before you can advance in rank, you'll learn to read & write in Korean, you'll be required to learn and know the Korean names for dozens of pressure points as well as for dozens of techniques, you'll be taken outside in the snow and you will perform whatever exercise that the rest of the class is doing... and in the end you'll be more confident, more centered, more physically fit, more balanced, more knowledgable about many topics, you will have developed a sincere respect for the martial arts and for your fellow students, and you and I will both be confident that if you go and visit any other martial arts school in the country, you wont embarrass yourself, me as your instructor, or the martial art of Hapkido, by either being a poor technician, by being in poor physical shape, by having a bad attitude or not demonstrating proper etiquette towards those you're visiting, or by not being able to answer questions about Hapkido or its history, etc. (how'z that for a run-on sentence???) And all of this holds true whether you're 13 or 63 and whether you're male or female. My students have never disappointed me by not being able to live up to the standards that I set for them, either physically or mentally -- and compared to many schools out there, those standards are extremely high.

I've had countless black belts come to visit and train with my class... and it is not an uncommon occurance to have them sitting on the sidelines before we're done with the first 1/4 of a 2 hour long class. My teaching methods were once described as "barbaric" (by a 2nd degree black belt who nearly vomited 35 minutes into my class). During that particular class, a 17 year old female student who was a white belt and overweight, made the training look easy. Why? Simple... its all in the attitude and the focus that the instructor instills in the students.

A serious training environment is often whats missing these days. Instructors are either afraid of getting sued or afraid to belly-up and set an example in front of the class. They're afraid of asking the students to conform to whats being offered, and instead, they adjust to what the students want. You dont go into a ballet school "just to shead a few pounds" and think you wont be expected to learn the same movements, history, etc., as everybody else there -- so why do people think they can do this in a martial arts school? And whats even a better question is if the ballet teacher wont stand for it, why do martial arts instructors stand for it?!? What many dont realize is that with the proper coaching and the proper attitude, the training can safely go beyond 10 jumping jacks, 10 push ups, and mediocre performance during rank testings because of being afraid of hurting someones feelings if you show them a better way to do something -- and it can be done without having to be so nervous about being taken to court.

But thats just my two cents. (sorry for any typo's)

Mike Burnett, Sa Joo
Shin Koo Hapkido
Yoo-Sok-Kwan
Lincoln, NE

[Terry Matthes]

I know people have different reasons for practicing martial arts, but if your going to be an instructor you should teach the art as it was intended.
So many schools cater to a family atmosphere ... Who are you to say that a mother that works hard all day can't take her kids after school and enjoy a family class? Just because other people practice martial arts in a diffrent way than you do doesn't mean it's wrong. Who are you to judge how martial arts should be practiced. You are sporting a kind of "Only the worthy" attitude I think, granted you might have had a couple bad experiences. Martial arts just aren't about military like discipline and conforming to standards. Not everyone wants a serious enviroement to practice in. There is nothing wrong with having a relaxed enviroment as long as the students have your respect. My instructor runs (what I would consider) a relaxed enviroment and everyone seems to learn and progress at a normal rate. We also throw some more practical bits into the class like sparring against a full resisting opponent using isolated techniques.
The fact is times are changing and you can live in the past or come to terms with the change. Martial Arts aren't for the elite and crazy dedicated. They are here for everyone to enjoy and learn from.

[Andrew Green]

Even the kids spar hard ;)

Oh well, cause its a relaxed and family atmosphere I guess they won't progress...

Serious, no way, this is for fun.

But I also know that we train harder then just about any "traditional" school.

"Simple analogy... I am an instructor in the art of teaching people how to color within the lines using crayons. If you dont want to use crayons, or if you think that coloring outside of the lines is what you want to learn, then I'm afraid you'll have to go train someplace else. "

Name one good artist that only coloured within the lines?

"A man flattened by an opponent can get up again, a man flattened by conformity is down for good."

Sounds to me like your down for the count...

[SaJooNim]

The whole point is simple. If I were to take any 50 students from random schools in my area and compare video footage of them performing techniques or competing, and compare that to footage of an average group of 50 martial artists from 1980, I would venture that most anyone would see a striking difference in the proficiency between the two groups... with the current students showing far poorer performance than those of yesteryear.

Martial arts in general is not what it used to be. I'm not living in the past -- but by the same token, I dont have to accept the decline I've witnessed and just "come to terms with change."

No, not everyone needs to train as seriously as we do, and I'm not saying that my way is the "right" way -- what I was getting at is that one significant reason for the aforementioned decline is the deep rooted American "tradition" of not wanting to be pushed to work harder than we think we should in order to truly EARN anything.

I can talk again of other activities such as gymnastics, figure skating, or ballet... parents dont send their kids into those activities to be coddled, they send them there to learn and grow in a serious, structured environment. The average competitor (and I'm not talking pro's) in these activites has greatly improved in proficiency in the last two decades -- yet martial arts in general, has gone the other way. Why?

I know there are good schools out there -- many of you may belong to (or own) one. The fact of the matter remains that I can name a hand full of dojangs within 10 miles of me, where to be perfectly honest, the students are not doing much more than going through the motions. No fault of the students of course -- the responsibility rests solely on the instructors. More worried about making sure that both feet are completely together when the student bow's, than they are about the mechanics of a proper side kick.

If you're not willing to push yourself, not willing to sweat, not willing to practice for countless hours, then gymnastics may not be for you. You dont turn around and go to the gymnastics place down the street in the hopes that they're more light-hearted and forgiving in their training, you simply choose something else. Martial arts like Hapkido (in my humble opinion) should be the same way. It is a demanding art. If you're learning all of it, it is very demanding on your body. If you're not willing to put in the sweat and time that it takes to properly condition your body to withstand that training, then maybe there is a better option. Rather than watering it down and scratching out half of the techniques and continuting to call it Hapkido, why not call it something different -- cuz, it isnt Hapkido anymore.

Time for bed...

Mike Burnett, Sa Joo
Shin Koo Hapkido
Yoo-Sok-Kwan
Lincoln, NE

[47Ronin]

I agree with you very much SaJooNim. Actually I am one hundred percent behind you. Can't talk anymore to tired.

[Jointlock]

Originally posted by Terry Matthes

Who are you to say that a mother that works hard all day can't take her kids after school and enjoy a family class? Just because other people practice martial arts in a diffrent way than you do doesn't mean it's wrong. Who are you to judge how martial arts should be practiced.

Who am I? I'm just a guy with an opinion just like I stated, and you have obviously expressed yours. Remember they're called martial arts, Martial as in military. People can do whatever they want and obviously do, I'm not trying to stop anyone or say that anyone can't do this or that. All I'm saying is in my opinion the current state of the average martial arts school in the US is pathetic. Isn't that what this forum is for, stating our opinions?

From reading some of the stuff on your school's website I can see why both of you say the things you say. To be an instructor in your school I would think you would have to be a pretty dedicated person, and possess a lot of knowledge to be able to train each person that comes in the door with the things that only work for them.

Originally posted by Andrew Green

Name one good artist that only coloured within the lines? "A man flattened by an opponent can get up again, a man flattened by conformity is down for good."

Just because we have a curriculum and sets of standards does not mean we are producing Hapkido robots. It means that we are making sure that our students are at least this good, they can be better than what we require and usually are.

Would you rather hire a lawer that went to law school and learned the standards of the law or would you rather hire a someone who read a "How to be a lawyer for Dummies" book. Standards are not always bad.

Originally posted by Andrew Green

But I also know that we train harder then just about any "traditional" school.

That's a pretty bold statement. In fact that sounds a lot like an opinion.

[KickChick]

Originally posted by Jointlock
Basically I'm hoping that some of you agree with me out there and Hapkido has not gone to total $h*t like most of the tae kwon do has.

Fortunately Hapkido is one of the few korean arts to remain untouched by sport competition or influence... for now.

[Thomas]

I can agree with much of the original post... but see it more as a frustrated kind of rant.

There are more martial arts schools around than ever before (especially where I live) and this choice makes it good for we students. However as martial arts expand, there will be more schools, some bad and some good. If I were to worry about the bad ones, I would go nuts...

However, those other schools mean nothing to me. I am at a school that I love and respect which is run by a master which I love and respect. My duty is to maintain that tradition and improve it if I can. The role model that my master sets is a tough one to follow but I will do my best. There are some other good schools that I respect... I go to them and cross-train. I also share my (and my master's) attitudes and skills with them in the hopes of making all of us better. As for the schools that aren't good... so what? It is of no concern to me.

We are lucky today that there are so many schools, books, magazines, videos and quality instructors out there. I don't have time to exploit all of these... so I have no time at all for the bad ones!

[shadow warrior]

When the new wave of martial arts teachers arrived in North America in the late 1960's and early 1970's they noticed two traits about these North American people. One, they were very lazy training compared to what they were used to in their homeland. Two, they were very status oriented; look at my Rolex watch and my new BMW.

It did not take long for the instructors (most), to market the only thing which had status in the eyes of North American's..the "Black Belt". Everyone has to eat and in some ways this first major wave of teachers tried hard to keep much of the essence of their arts available to more serious students. However, as time passed competition increased and the focus slowly shifted from martial arts to business modeling. In the not far distant future, there will be programs developed and marketed for toddlers..if you can walk you can be a revenue source.

The real problem with Macmartial arts is not that people are not getting ANYTHING out of the training, but that these students in most cases think that they are learning some REAL self defence profficiency. If you are in a Tae Bo - Mac Martial Art your teacher should make this very clear to you.

My second Master Instructor was fond of saying people who want true martial arts training will smell it and find it. In today's environment however, the general stink of Macfried burgers makes this a difficult task for the general public.

Everyone knows that most high ranking Dan certificates today are purchased or invented, rather than earned. Traditionally, anything above Fourth Degree was awarded for developing new technique, superior fighting ability and/or making significant contributions to the art itself. Today, anyone who has been around the martial arts for more than twenty five years knows countless cases where instructors have experienced divine intervention and jumped multiple degrees after a few seminars with well known Grandmasters. I have turned down some such offers myself.

When I first got involved in Hapkido in the mid 1970's, the only instructors I knew were 7th degree or higher under the old Korean Hapkido Association..believe me when I say..these guys could fight. They displayed their skill to anyone who wanted a first hand demonstration. Not only could they fight, these Masters could demonsrtate some amazing KI skills. Today I would challange most of the new generation North American Fifth Degrees or higher to display ANY of the KI energy management skills so prevelent in the 1960's and 1970's. The easiest to display would be "TOO HEAVY" to lift, or even simpler, the "UNBENDABLE ARM". There are many other KI 'tricks' which were routine and separate from the well known "breaking" examples (beer bottle, 20+ roofing tiles ect.).

Today the skills which most instructors focus on are more related to business than practical martial arts skills, KI development and the teaching, mentoring process.

According to the numerous martial arts management magazines which are so prevelent these days, if you don't have a thousand students you are a failure! What about the quality of those students? What are these students actually achieving? What kind of fundemental personal growth do they experience?

A martial arts student is NOT a widget which can be manufactured in limitless quantities..Who ever said a Black Belt was within the reach of EVERY student anyway? I think it might have been a Marketing Manager, or was it the Quality Control Manager? It certainly was NOT a highly skilled martial arts instructor with integrity and a deep love of their art.

Knowledge is power! Not all human beings deserve to possess it!

[SaJooNim]

Shadow Warrior wrote...

<<A martial arts student is NOT a widget which can be manufactured in limitless quantities..Who ever said a Black Belt was within the reach of EVERY student anyway? I think it might have been a Marketing Manager, or was it the Quality Control Manager? It certainly was NOT a highly skilled martial arts instructor with integrity and a deep love of their art.>>

I couldnt agree more! I think your post captures the scene in a very accurate manner.

Kudo's!

Mike Burnett, Sa Joo
Shin Koo Hapkido
Yoo-Sok-Kwan
Lincoln, NE

[Zuiun]

Originally posted by Andrew Green
"Simple analogy... I am an instructor in the art of teaching people how to color within the lines using crayons. If you dont want to use crayons, or if you think that coloring outside of the lines is what you want to learn, then I'm afraid you'll have to go train someplace else. "

Name one good artist that only coloured within the lines?

"A man flattened by an opponent can get up again, a man flattened by conformity is down for good."

Sounds to me like your down for the count...

I think you're missing SaJooNim's point when it comes to conformity.

The common misconception is that conformity is bad, when in reality, some forms of conformity are not only encouraged, but necessary.

Should we not all aspire to "conform" to the correct execution of a side kick? If we are to be active in the martial arts, should we not put forth the effort to make the proper execution of a technique as automatic as walking? This isn't an issue of asthetics. The mechanics are proven -- we do it a certain way because that is the most effective way.

I believe what SaJooNim is getting at is that when someone walks into his DoJang, they should expect to learn the way he chooses to teach. As an instructor, he should not have to alter his teaching style to cater to students who aren't interested in hard work. His students are asked to "conform" only in the sense that they will be expected to put forth the hard work necessary to perform correct techniques.

To expand on the crayon analogy, it's entirely possible to learn to conform to coloring within the lines when learning the mechanics of technique, but once you've mastered the mechanics, feel free to color outside those lines all you want.

The best artists may indeed create "outside the lines". but they do so effectively only AFTER a thorough mastery of the rules to begin with.

The simple fact is that many schools don't provide mastery of those rules. They cater to the population that is looking for a diversion rather than serious training. In these schools, the martial arts are treated more as a hobby than a serious endeavor. Belts are awarded because that's what's expected, not what's earned. Tournaments are watered down so that everyone gets a trophy because that's what's expected, not what's earned.

When this happens, this segment of the population is no longer learning the martial arts. They are engaging in physical activity that has about the same relationship to real martial arts as putt-putt golf has to real golf.

I really don't have a problem with schools that want to teach this sort of thing. I have a problem with these schools handing out black belts and calling themselves martial arts schools. They are more like physical activity centers that have been inspired by the martial arts.

-- Zu

[Andrew Green]

You seem to equate seriousness with conformity, that is not always the case.

You can be very serious about colouring outside the lines.

Besides, if you decide to go to art school and spend 4 years colouring inside the lines then get a degree, would you not feel cheated?

[SaJooNim]

...and to carry on what Zuiun just said...

...Grandmaster Ji, Han-Jae makes a big deal out of the fact that what he teaches to his students is only the "root." You must first develop strong roots that are held tightly in firm soil -- and only then can you begin to branch out slightly. He makes sure that people understand that you cannot deviate too much from the base that he gives, or what you end up with is no longer Hapkido.

Many martial artists in America have roots that are genetically modified, and growing in loose soil that is saturated with toxic chemicals. All this yields is a weak tree that will fall over in the first strong wind.

Mike Burnett, Sa Joo
Shin Koo Hapkido
Yoo-Sok-Kwan
Lincoln, NE

[Andrew Green]

umm... food is genetically modified to make it better, not fall over...

Besides, whats wrong with ending up with something that isn't Hapkido anymore? Apart from not writing a check to the Hapkido org anymore?

Hapkido wasn't always around, someone deviated from something else till it was no longer that.

Thats how evolution works. Hapkido will become outdated and new things will step in, then those things will make way for other new things....

Roots hold you in one place. Trees never get anywhere, they just stay planted until someone cuts them down.

Animals don't have roots, yet they don't just fall over

[Zuiun]

Originally posted by Andrew Green
Besides, if you decide to go to art school and spend 4 years colouring inside the lines then get a degree, would you not feel cheated?

I think the question this begs is whether you feel that the school should conform to YOUR preconceptions about what you should learn.

The very process of going to "school" requires some level of conformity because the very essense of going to school is to gain knowledge and some types of learning involve a very specific process.

I have a better question for you -- and one that makes much more sense in this thread: If you go to art school for 4 years and by the time you're done, you can barely hold a crayon (much less color inside or outside the lines), wouldn't YOU feel cheated? That's the real point here. Many schools quite simply are not teaching anything of value to their students. They can't color inside or outside of the lines because by the time they get their black belt, they still can't color at all.

Here's a thought: The difference between a 3-year old and an accomplished artist is that the 3-year old has no control -- he can't help but to color outside of the lines. The accomplished artist can effectively break the rules only because he has mastered them in the first place.

These so-called black belts from second-rate revolving door schools are doomed to always "color outside the lines" because they have no choice -- they simply lack the training and skill required to do it any other way.

-- Zu

[SaJooNim]

Mr. Green... buddy... you've taken the analogy entirely too far. Lets not be TOO literal here.

There are two issues here. First is people diluting Hapkido beyond anything that can be recognized as the original art -- and yet they STILL call it Hapkido.

Second is the fact that there are so many instructors out there who are either knowingly or unknowingly perpetuating this dilution because they bend to meet the student rather than requiring that the student bend to meet them.

I am not a tree. Thats why they call it an "analogy."

You're right about evolution -- and again I say, if it isnt Hapkido, then dont call it that.

I would think it can only be a very rare and gifted teacher who can truly develop an outstanding martial artist without requiring that the student become proficient in some basic set of postures, techniques, and philosophy.

Once they've mastered the basics, then sure -- they're free to expound upon them -- but if they deviate too far and want to teach their new "system" -- then they need to figure out something else to call it.

Mike Burnett, Sa Joo
Shin Koo Hapkido
Yoo-Sok-Kwan
Lincoln, NE

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by SaJooNim

Once they've mastered the basics, then sure -- they're free to expound upon them -- but if they deviate too far and want to teach their new "system" -- then they need to figure out something else to call it.


Why call it anything new? There enough generic names that can be used for advertising and marketing.

This is on the downfall of martial arts. I think the biggest thing holding the martial arts back is the idea of styles and lineages.

Basic principles stay the same regardless of style, the only time this changes is if the style says it should, and that is where things start going funny...

[YODA]

Originally posted by Andrew Green
This is on the downfall of martial arts. I think the biggest thing holding the martial arts back is the idea of styles and lineages.

Basic principles stay the same regardless of style, the only time this changes is if the style says it should, and that is where things start going funny...

* APPLAUSE *

[Jointlock]

I told myself that I wasn't going to pay attention to this thread anymore but I have one last thing to say.

Mr. Green lets say that someone had trained at your school for three months then moved. They decide to start their own school with the 3 months of training that they recieved from you and nothing else. They then decided that they don't want to do the classes the way that you taught and that they want to just start selling belts to everyone that comes in the door. All the while advertising that they were a student of yours and that they teach your martial art. Pretty soon everyone in that town would get the impression that your school sucked even though it may not. Now this guy has 12 students that he promotes to black belt or instructor (or whatever you guys do) within the first year of their training. Next they move to different towns and start their own schools, and so on and so on. All the while they claim to be under Grandmaster Green's system. Sounds kind of $h*tty doesn't it.

But why should they call what they do a different name then what you do, they're just marketing right?

[Andrew Green]

They could call it whatever they want, using my name (Andrew Green) is a different issue.

Unless of course I create a name for what I do and trademark it. Then they can't use it

[Jointlock]

Originally posted by Andrew Green

They could call it whatever they want, using my name (Andrew Green) is a different issue.

Now we're getting somewhere. Everyone knows who created these martial arts. Grandmaster Ji Han-Jae or Grandmaster Choi Yong-Sol for Hapkido, General Choi Hong-Hi for TKD, Suh In Hyuk for Kuk Sool Won, etc. When your using these guys' martial arts your basically using their names especially when you teach history and say that shis is Joo Bong Lee's (Hwa Rang Do) Martial art that we practice. Then when people that train hard from other styles go to a watered down school like this they think wow Joo Bong Lee must of sucked because these people that train in his art suck.

:D Have a nice day.

[shadow warrior]

Basic principles stay the same regardless of style??

IF this outrageous statement is fundementally TRUE, then Shotokan would be indistinguishable from Wu Shu in its root theories and foundations...Yudo would be based on the same ideas as Tae Kwon Do..and so on...the ONLY common denominator is sweat..

The nuances of root concepts are as diversified as the human martial arts universe is infinite.

The only STYLE which should be used for comparison is the maximum potential of FLUID NATURAL BODY MOTION (both physical and internal), as they apply to martial arts! The farther away from this ideal a technique strays, the more stunted, contrived and ineffective they become.

Anyone who believes they can invent "new" natural body motions is hoping to reinvent the very way human beings can move.

The downfall of martial arts in general has already occured under the weight of commercialism. However, there will always be essential root elements hidden in plain sight if you open your eyes. MANY examples of fundemental pure martial arts principles can be seen EVERYDAY in numerous professional sports.

If a technique "tastes good" it is probably closer, rather than farther from the truth.

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by shadow warrior
Basic principles stay the same regardless of style??

IF this outrageous statement is fundementally TRUE, then Shotokan would be indistinguishable from Wu Shu in its root theories and foundations...Yudo would be based on the same ideas as Tae Kwon Do..and so on...the ONLY common denominator is sweat..


read the whole sentence, you missed the important bit

"the only time this changes is if the style says it should, and that is where things start going funny..."

[shadow warrior]

If by "style" you mean natural body motion, but I did not get that impression. Then I agree, your point is taken. If you mean specific "style" in the martial arts sense, then you are the one that missed the important bit, along with a huge hint for a litmous test.

[Zuiun]

Originally posted by Andrew Green
[B]Besides, whats wrong with ending up with something that isn't Hapkido anymore? Apart from not writing a check to the Hapkido org anymore?]

There's nothing wrong with it -- unless you keep calling it Hapkido.

That would be like genetically altering an apple until it looks like an orange, feels like an orange, tastes like an orange and still calling it an apple.

At some point, you get so far away from the original that you MUST redefine and rename it.

Hapkido wasn't always around, someone deviated from something else till it was no longer that.

Thats how evolution works. Hapkido will become outdated and new things will step in, then those things will make way for other new things....

It's interesting that you mention evolution. The process of evolving is a difficult one. It requires the genetic equivelent of lots of blood, sweat and tears. If it were an easy thing, life wouldn't survive. We would evolve ourselves into extinction with the changing of the seasons. Instead, successful evolution is monumental -- it requires something of a genetic epiphany.

I, for one, hope the Hapkido does evolve -- in the same way that many more ancient martial arts have evolved. However, I don't want that sentiment interpreted the wrong way. Evolution isn't necessarily a blatant thing. For instance, firearms didn't exist when many martial arts were born, yet today almost every art has adopted disarming techniques -- without altering the fundemental principles those arts were founded on.

But, if/when evolution comes, it isn't going to happen in a weak school that fails to challenge its students. Evolution never happens when times are good or things are easy. It requires struggle.

Students coming from the black belt "factories" are not the ones who will bring meaningful change to the world of martial arts. They have no reason to. For them, there is no challenge, no reason to change the status quo.

In fact, to get back to your comments about conformity, I would argue that it is those very students in the second-rate schools who are trapped by it, not the students in the more strict, rigid schools.

Innovation doesn't come from taking it easy. To pull and old (possibly overused, but relevent here) cliche out of the box and dust it off, look at the innovations Bruce Lee brought to the martial arts community. Most people are quick to point out that he broke rules, spoke out against rigidity and traditional styles, "colored outside the lines" if you will. But, he was only able to make these revolutionary alterations to his thinking because he came from a strict environment of hard, demanding training. His dedication and work provided the tools to successfully experiment and break the rules in a way that worked for him.

(And it's worth noting that even as he was breaking rules and shattering long-standing traditions, he never advocated against the necessity for hard work and strict training regiments.)

If Lee had come from one of the "fast-food" black belt factories, I doubt that we would know his name today. He would have just been yet another of the faceless, mediocre, pseudo black belts who may have been able to go through the motions, but didn't understand why things are done the way they are.

-- Zu

[shadow warrior]

Most of Bruce Lee's "inovations" to the martial arts occured concurently with his exposure to two very well known Hapkido Master's in Hong Kong.

For a very obvious example, look at his very early movies (Big Boss..ect ), he never kicked above the waist, later he was a head hunter. His heel turning (spin kick) only appeared after he saw a Hapkido master demonstrating the technique on the set of a movie they were in together. Did he invent the technique? No..he borrowed it.

There is no NEW root technique, only selection and repackaging of same. There have been no new natural body motions invented in the last ten thousand named "styles".

The only real issue to consider is how close to maximum dynamic human potential motion is a given technique. Whether it be an instructor , student or Grandmaster, this generation or the next. This must be the true yardstick.

[Zuiun]

Originally posted by shadow warrior
Most of Bruce Lee's "inovations" to the martial arts occured concurently with his exposure to two very well known Hapkido Master's in Hong Kong.

Lee's "innovations" had nothing to do with what techniques he took from what styles and that's not what I'm talking about.

To yank this back to the original topic, we were talking about strict training regiments in schools vs. the schools where it seems that the only requirements for advancing in rank is simply showing up.

The misconception I see in Mr. Green's posts is that he seems to be arguing that the rigid schools somehow limit the potential of the students.

My argument is exactly the opposite. I see it as the "fast food" martial arts schools that are really the ones limiting the potential of the student because they don't push them to their limits and beyond.

My mention of Bruce Lee had less to do with which particular kicks he chose to use and where he might have gotten them from and more to do with the mindset he adopted. His innovation was one of stripping away form and tradition. He didn't invent new body mechanics, but he did explore new ways to train the body. He didn't invent a new "style," but rather he examined all styles for what was working and what he felt wasn't -- and he took everything that worked.

But the point is that Lee couldn't have come into it as a novice (or as a half-trained McBlackBelt) and made any meaningful revelations or innovations. It was exactly the strict training he received early in life that gave him the experience, perspective and insight necessary to open his mind to new possibilities for training.


The only real issue to consider is how close to maximum dynamic human potential motion is a given technique. Whether it be an instructor , student or Grandmaster, this generation or the next. This must be the true yardstick.

This comment reminds me of this guy I know. He once accused me of being "flashy" and "pretty" when I performed techniques and that my "flashiness" wasn't effective.

This confused me for a minute because I've never really considered myself to have "flashy" techniques. So I asked him what he was talking about.

His response was that every time I kick, I make such an effort to make it "look" perfect and that he didn't feel this was practical.

My response to him: No, I'm not trying to make it look pretty. I'm only trying to do it right. It isn't correct because it's pretty -- rather, it's pretty because it's correct. :)

-- Zu

[SaJooNim]

In holding with the thread, I suppose I may as well just point out the obvious... take note that once Bruce Lee began to modify what he was doing, he dropped the name that his original instructor used and began calling it something entirely different.

"Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the people doing it."

Mike Burnett, Sa Joo
Shin Koo Hapkido
Yoo-Sok-Kwan
Lincoln, NE

[Andrew Green]

Wing Chun Gung Fu -> Jun Fan Gung Fu

So is this acceptable?

Shin Koo Hapkido -> Burnett Hapkido

[Jointlock]

Mr. Green I don't get it. Do you support the idea of McDojangs and belt factories? Do you completely disagree with everything that has been said? If so, then we come from two completely different worlds of thought. If not, then what the heck are we argueing about? You said yourself "But I also know that we train harder then just about any "traditional" school"." So, why argue with a traditional school that trains hard?

My basic arguement is that it is almost impossible to find a decent martial arts school today, even for someone like myself who has been in martial arts for a while. So, how would someone that doesn't know the slightest thing about martial arts find a school that is actually teaching the real deal when they all claim to be doing it. Many years could be wasted for a potentially great student who could have been learning the real thing the whole time.

As you put it the reason that no one changes the name of the watered down martial art that they teach is because of the advertising and marketing value of the name. No one would go to a school named "Smith's Mediocre Martial arts school." People would rather go to a school named "Combat Hapkido" or something they recognize with Tae kwon do or Karate in the name.

I have read most of your website and wonder how you are able to teach the things that you claim? Do you even teach techniques? And if you do, are they just the ones that you think work? How can you teach someone things that only works for them if you yourself only practice the things that work for you, and how long do you make them practice those techniques before they are able to reject them? You also claim that the student is supposed to create their own style and not be bound by an artificial style. This all sounds fine and dandy on paper and in theory, but people have been doing these techniques for many many years and they are all based on proper body mechanics and delivering the most amount of power. So, why reinvent the wheel and try to have your students figure all of this stuff out for themselves. This would be like telling someone to figure out quantum physics without ever teaching them how to add two plus two (Probably shouldn't have used an analogy, they don't go over well in this thread). Were you taught this way or did you just meditate in a cave somewhere and learn all of your martial arts training from divine intervention? Or, did you train in one of those silly styles that make martial arts robots out of all of us?

[Andrew Green]

There is this wonderful new training method called sparring. It will show you real quick what techniques work for you.

The techniques are all basically the same. What differs is which ones are used, when there used and jow they are set up.

And that is simple body mechanics, we are all built basically the same way. There is a best way to apply a arm bar, how you get to there is a different story.

My point is that a school doesn't have to have some form of strict artificial discipline attached to a rigid style and conformity to a mould.

There are a lot of bad schools out there, but that has nothing to do with having a relaxed and friendly atmosphere.

[Jointlock]

Is that all this is about? Just because we train hard and practice discipline does not mean we don't have a good time or are not friendly. In reference to being serious, when we are practicing techniques we practice to project a strong attitude. So, whether your tired or hurt it doesn't show in your face for your opponent to play off of. We do not berate our students and call them names, or try to tear them down and intimidate them. In fact we are very supportive, give compliments, and create a very healthy student/instructor relationship. Just because I was a Marine doesn't mean I run my class like a drill instructor. The students feel like they get their moneys worth and they feel good and have a significant amount of pride for working so hard in class.

Hapkido is the furthest thing from being rigid. Yes there are many techniques that you are required to learn and possess a certain level of mastery but they are just building blocks. You may grab a person and the technique that you do may not work that time, thats okay because we teach to easily flow into another technique that feels right. Like you said there are many ways to get to an arm bar. We base the way that we use our techniques on the 3 basic Hapkido principles of Flowing like water, circular theory, and Harmony/Nonresistance. Also like you said our bodies are built fundamentally the same, so wouldn't it be reasonable for the student to learn the techniques the same way that the instructor does it. Of course changes can be made to the technique if the student has physical problems, but usually they can be done properly by anyone that is willing to learn them. Once the technique is learned then it is used in "sparring" (depending on what your definition of sparring is, see my thread on Hapkido sparring to see what I'm talking about) that's where they learn the best ways to get to those techniques that they have learned.

I hope this cleared a few things up for you. If not, I'll agree to disagree with you, and leave this thread behind.

[munchkin]

I have trained at both a traditional and non-traditional dojo. There were advantages to both. At first I thought the non trad was for me and enjoyed the relaxed atmosphere and seemingly endless combination of things I was learning. Now I am at a more traditional dojo. The workout is very good, it is different than non t but good nonetheless. the problem I had with non trad was too many techniques were taught and I never felt I had the basics. Never felt comfortable with trying certain kicks in sparring because balance was bad or never using certain punches because the concept of distancing was never adequately explained. They just wanted us to spar and develop our ownstyle. Unfortunately, if you are not a natural fighter you continue to fight like a girl(I am one by the way) because the basics aren't there. right up until the end at the old club I saw women who "sparred" for almost two years still punching like girls, telegraphing for the whole world to see and basically not fighting much different than when they came in except for the fact they held their hands in a slightly different position.

So back to the original intent of the thread, I think the downfall of the martial arts is that too many people see that they can't combine traditional with non-traditional. It has to be a black and white thing. they can't do anything traditional because that is "bad" and only "new" stuff is good. New training philosophies, new techniques, etc. Let's face it people there are only so many ways one human body can beat on another. There is nothing "new" under the sun. It is all in how you combine methods are teach students. It shouldn't be the 'style' that counts but the respect for learning and wanting to get better.

[Terry Matthes]

Speaking for my self I can say that Andrew runs a relaxed enviroment that is:
1) Not slack (workout is hard :( :))
2) Enjoyable to be in
3)Teaches the basics in a practical way.

Isolated sparring techniques are (I think) the key. If you teach someone all these moves solo then tell them to spar they will be somewhat confused when throwing it all togeather. By sparring with one two or even three moves against a progressivley ressisting opponent you begin to see openings faster because you are essentially training the motion over and over. As opposed to using the motion only a few times during your bout. After going through a few diffrent isolated sparring sessions we do a (everything included) spar and It seems to me that I can just put everything togeather that much better. Also with no move list to conform to you can try things out. If you want to try and throw a spinning backhand or a move you saw from another art, Go For It :D Then you'll see how effective that move is for YOU (not how effective it is for the man who started the art).

When you subscribe to a set of rules or moves you are essentially trying to conform to those rules. What if all those rules don't work for you? Why force yourself into them? When I was a little kid I had a toy ball with shapes punched in it, now I figured out fast that the square block doesn't fit into the round hole. Why haven't some martial artists figured this out?

That's what my adventure in martial arts is; seeing what works for me. I don't care if it's from Karate, Muay Thai, Savat. . . Call it whatever you want I'll just call it what works.

[shadow warrior]

The vast majority of MacDojangs are owned and run by what are considered "acedemic" instructors, most of whom did not receive in depth, high quality formal instruction to begin with. Second, their exposure to significant numbers of situations where their martial skill was the only thing which kept them alive was for the most part non existant. This true of countless supposed high ranking black belts as well.

The downfall of martial arts is much more related to the lack of "real life" experience of the instructor which is reflected in the effectiveness of his own technique, than whether a school is formal or informal or what style it is called .

No matter what kinds of methods an instructor employs to elicit an increase in a student's proficiency, sparring in a club will only allow a student to develop at most an "acedemic" understanding of such variables as range, rythum and technique application. This knowledge of course will vary greatly in all parameters.

There is a universe of difference between sparring with your friends (other students), and trying to escape from, or even worse, arrest a 220 pound hostile, crazed druggie.

There are ONLY two practical ways to test the effectiveness of your fighting skills. The first would be to work in a public situation (arrest, ejection, eviction, crowd control, trespass enforcement, undercover or other "front line" applications) where you can test out ALL of your aquired knowledge in an environment where there are no referees, weight classes or rules. The second is to embark on a professional career as a MMA fighter. Although not as effective as the first option in developing an overall understanding, it is better than just plain acedemic knowledge.

VERY FEW instructors today have significant (10 Years + front line experience) during their career. However, this is ONLY important if a teacher CLAIMS to teach realistic SELF DEFENCE. In other words, when someone posting on this form says a particular technique WORKS for them, we must ask the question: How do you really know? If the answer is; I've used it to arrest someone many times. Case closed.
This is how martial arts degenerate over time, they become completely disconnected from the essense of martial..whatever style they call it.

One of the most important aspects of a martial arts instructor's bio should be significant demonstrated experience in a practical sense. If you were teaching people how to fly, your students would expect you to have amassed significant actual flying hours yourself, not just on a flight simulator.

An extreme example of acedemic knowledge would be a supposed 10th degree "live blade" sword Master, who has never been in a life or death sword match in his life. Of course their are not too many opportunities around today to test your skill in this way, which is precisely the point. How can they be a "MASTER", if they have not faced death by another expert's blade?

Remember the old saying..when two tigers fight..one dies today and the other dies tomorrow..to benefit from the parable, you must intrinsically KNOW this to be true and accept it.

This understanding can never be achieved in a purely acedemic environment, although diversified technical knowledge can be accumulated.

It is totally up to the individual martial arts student to determine what level of risk they are personally willing to accept in order to test their skill and expand their expertise. This is NOT the role of an instructor within a "training" environment.

[Thomas]

Nice post... interesting read. I really see your points. In the martial arts, for those of us who wish to teach self defence, what would you recommend as good ways to amass experience of whether something really works?

[SaJooNim]

Mr. Green wrote...

<<My point is that a school doesn't have to have some form of strict artificial discipline attached to a rigid style and conformity to a mould.>>

...and then Thomas asked...

<<In the martial arts, for those of us who wish to teach self defence, what would you recommend as good ways to amass experience of whether something really works?>>

As someone who has some of the "front line" experience that shadow referred to (as an MP in the Marine Corps), what I can tell you is that when you are 5'11" and 145lbs, and you show up to arrest a drunk Marine or sailor who outweighs you by 40-50lbs, they generally want to "try you." What did I learn from this experience -- three very important things...

Number one is that the tongue is mightier than the side kick!!! I was able to talk down people and avoid many fights.

Number two was that I felt very lucky to have had instructors who demanded nothing less than a high level of technical proficiency -- acquired by years of repetition and structured training.

Number three -- and by FAR the most important -- was that the amount of discipline (both mental and physical) someone has, combined with the amount of determination they have that there can be NO option but for them to be the one who walks away, is what keeps people alive in serious life-threatening situations.

Without the "front line" experience that shadow speaks of, the next best option is going to be having an absolute understanding of the basics and an ability to perform techniques efficiently, combined with some very serious, very strict mental conditioning.

There is a reason why my instructors demanded strict focus and attention and that I performed at nothing less than 100% -- and there is a reason why my Marine Corps drill instructors demanded the same thing (but in very different ways). I honestly dont feel like the average "academic" martial arts instructor is probably instilling the attitude and determination necessary for someone to survive a truly life-threatening situation. We have lots of fun in my classes and everybody gets along great -- but when class is in session, and I say jump, I expect that they not only jump, but that they do so enthusiastically and with the attitude & intention that they are doing so to save their life.

Training time is traing time -- it is not a time to be jovial and play around. There are 168 hours in a week -- my students train in class for only 8 of those hours. That leaves 160 other hours for someone to laugh and joke all they want.

If I dont teach someone the kind of technical proficiency, as well as the seriousness & intention that it takes to survive, and they go out and get themselves maimed or killed -- how do you think I'm going to feel, knowing it may have been because I was more concerned with everyone getting to do what THEY wanted to do in class, and that everyone get to have a good laugh while doing it?

This is serious business. Yes, I believe that Hapkido is an art form -- and if you train and perform it correctly, it is very beautiful and graceful -- and you get amazing health benefits from your practice... but I intend that my students be able to defend themselves -- and if they cant get the experience through a "front line" position, then by-gawd, they WILL at least have the proper mind-set and attitude, and if the bad guy pulls off one of their arms, then they'll snatch it back and beat him to death with it (figuratively speaking, of course) -- and they'll do so without letting him see that they're in pain OR that they're tired!

FWIW,

Mike Burnett, Sa Joo
Shin Koo Hapkido
Yoo-Sok-Kwan
Lincoln, NE

[shadow warrior]

Mr. Burnett

"Front line" experience is not really needed by the vast majority of students who would like to be involved in martial arts. But, any person who is teaching should have had significant exposure to real life situations in order to pass on the understanding they have accumulated.

You were quite right to bring up the power of talking the situation down. In the mid 1980's, I started giving perks to ejection team members who escorted people out of various venues without physical force. Most ejections without fighting.. wins. Often a calm, confident attitude will work. "Experience" will tell you when this tactic is doomed to failure. Very few physical confrontations begin with a formal declaration of hositilities.

Developing a "fighting mentality" in every student is however, limited to the risk taking parameters of that particular person. The mental, emotional, moral discipline, physical capabilities, life situation and accumulated experience all affect the "hobbiest's" potential in this regard.

I think we would agree with this statement. The downfall of martial arts will continue as long as students with no true martial experience become teachers who do not seek out real experience and instruct students who do not question the fundamental quality of how and what they are learning. "Show me", that it 'works' should be the basic approach. When a teacher has some reference points in this regard a certain amount of credibility can be assigned, if not, their guessing and the student may pay the price for that.

The court of 'educated' public opinion is probably the only venue where Mac Dojangs can be exposed. Then the problem becomes painfully clear..How are they to become knowledgable..this public...ENHANCE their ability to "smell" the real thing and throw that old high fat burger out in the trash.

Exactly what we are attempting to accomplish..

[BSR]

Well the original post mentioned something about training like Marines.

Personally that approach turns me off. I didn't get into martial arts to be put through boot camp. I don't usually go around quoting Bruce Lee but he said something once about martial arts being a form of self-expression. That's really what it's all about for me.

My instructor is very friendly and down-to-earth. She doesn't act like a drill sargeant, and I believe most of the adults in my class respect her more for that. We still bow and call her ma'am, but we are also free to joke with her and talk about our personal lives.

I enjoy Hapkido because it is a way in which I can express myself. I enjoy the culture of the art, and I enjoy the comradeship of my fellow students and instructors. I am not into it to become a lean, mean killing machine. So far, in 26 years, I have avoided violent confrontations, and I intend to keep doing so. I hope to never have to use what I have learned in a "real-life situation".

Oh yeah, and I only go to class twice a week, so if that means I'm contributing to the downfall of the art, then excuse me. :)

[SaJooNim]

Nobody ever made any claim that anybody had to train like they were in boot camp. There is a world of difference between the way we train, and the way that Marine Corps boot camp is run. What WAS said is that there are some training concepts that are very similar between the two. I too, am very friendly and down to earth -- heck, my students and I even go to Colorado on camping/hiking trips.

There are some people who simply could not, because of personality, train their students in the same manner that I train mine. I do not berate or belittle my students and I dont play psychological games with them as drill instructors do with raw recruits. We have a very encouraging and uplifting tone to our training. Just as you respect your instructor for her methods, I respected my teachers for theirs, and my students respect me for mine -- and most importantly, they understand and are comfortable with why I do things the way I do.

I never force anybody to do anything they dont want to. I do, however, provide an environment that encourages people to surpass what they THINK they can do, thereby instilling a high level of confidence (not cockiness) in their physical abilities.

I also believe that martial arts is a form of self-expression. How can it not be? Just because our training is strict and demanding, doesnt mean I'm producing robots. Nor does it mean that I'm brainwashing people into not having an opinion.

I too enjoy Hapkido because it is a way in which I can express myself -- I'm sure my students would say the same thing. Our training is steeped in the culture of Hapkido's ancestory, and my students also enjoy the comradship built between them. I have no intention of creating lean, mean killing machines. And I certainly expect that my students will do everything they can to avoid a confrontation. I also expect that my students will have the ability to defend their lives if pushed to it -- and much of what will give them that ability is the mental fortitude and confidence that they develop through our rigorous training atmosphere.

Mike Burnett, Sa Joo
Shin Koo Hapkido
Yoo-Sok-Kwan
Lincoln, NE

[SaJooNim]

BSR -- you commented on the amount of time you train. It really comes down to how much effort both the instructor and the student put into the time they spend together. BUT...

...by comparison, there are schools in my area that train their students for 45 minutes, two times a week... and these students are eligible to test as often as every 4 weeks (8 weeks being the standard otherwise). That calculates out to anywhere from 12 to 24 hours of in-class training time per colored belt rank.

By contrast, the majority of my students have always trained four days a week, for a minimum of two hours at a pop. The minimum time in grade for colored belts is 10 weeks, but more typically, it ends up being around 16 weeks. That works out to anywhere from 80 to 128 hours of in-class training time per rank.

Let me put it another way. In the first example, it is possible for a student to progress through nine ranks and become a "black belt" in fewer actual classroom hours (108) than it takes for one of my students (128 hours) to be promoted ONE time (white belt to yellow belt).

Now, I'm certainly not saying that my way is the only way -- or even that it is for everyone. What I AM saying though, is that generally speaking, this trend has a great deal to do with why we see such a decline in the technical knowledge and ability of many of the black belts out there today.

Mike Burnett, Sa Joo
Shin Koo Hapkido
Yoo-Sok-Kwan
Lincoln, NE

[Thomas]

Despite the opinion that the original posting sounded like a frustrated rant (no disrespect intended), I do agree with the brunt of the issue. Maintaining the historical and traditional elements of that which makes our style "our style" is important. There are lots of people out there who really aren't living up to "our" expectations. In my mind, the issue is "what can we do about it?"

For me, I strive to be good and I will pass my knowledge on. As for other schools... I'm too busy training and working to worry about them. However, I do encourage an open attitude... invite other schools to get together and share techniques and training. By setting a high example, you will make other schools set one too and this "friendly competition" (in a way) hopefully will keep us all on the ball. Schools that don't want to participate... sorry, I don't have time to worry about them.

Any other suggesstions to prevent the decline of Hapkido?

[Jointlock]

You're right Thomas it was just a frustrated rant. I had no idea that it would go this far and become the thread with the most replys and close to the most views.

It's amazing that everyone wants to read and comment on the negative posts instead of giving attention to the positive ones that are actually asking good questions. I am also sometimes guilty of this.

My intention was not to hurt feelings or put people down, I was actually trying to be as vague as possible. Maybe open some eyes, and of course listen to different ways of doing things. Some things were taken too literal and exploited beyond my intention.

Hopefully we can leave this post behind, unpuff our chests and start sharing some worth while knowledge. I am on this forum to share what I have learned and to pick up some new information, or to learn different more efficient ways of doing things I'm already doing.

I'm not here to say that my school is the best and the end all of Hapkido. I believe that you don't stop learning until you are dead, and you may keep on learning after that. I also believe that you cannot define a martial art by just learning its' techniques and theories, you have to live it and breath it. It's more than what has been presented to you through instructors, it's what you make of it.

Again I'm sorry for creating such a monster out of this thread, and will choose my posts more wisely in the future.

[Thomas]

I think the issues are very real and that it is nice to hear them put out there quite well. I just think the next step is "what can we do to prevent it from getting worse?" I hope to see more posts on this thread from the people who have been posting.

- For me, I keep a notebook of how we trained in Korea and I add notes from class wirth my master and at seminars. I share those ideas and thoughts with students.

- I also have invested in some rood traditional style Hapkido books (from Korea) that I go through and read... both to learn on my own and to find techniques and drills to take into class.

- I keep a list of questions to ask my master in order toclarify things so I can teach them better.

- At testings I keep notes of things that need work (last time, to my initial embarassment, it was students' breakfalls... we have worked them pretty hard since then) and I make sure we follow up on it.

- Whe I do warm ups or classes, I share knowledge of Korea and Hapkido with the students... eveything from "proper" sitting to Korean terms with proper pronunciation.

That's just a few things I am doing... how about other posters sharing some ideas?

[BSR]

SaJooNim,

I didn't intend for my post to be a criticism of you personally.

I picked up on something you said and sort of went of on a tangent. It's just that I've seen a lot of military/macho B.S. present in martial arts, so when I heard "Marines" that got me into a rant.

It wasn't my intention to criticize your style of training or teaching because, obviously, I've never witnessed it. Rather I was making comments based on what I've seen in some other schools around here.

No hard feelings I hope.

[SaJooNim]

BSR... its all good. :-)

I know what you mean about the military/macho b.s. Its hard to explain my teaching style -- and I use the military analogy only in as much as some of the concepts and intentions are the same.

Many people dont understand why the Marines train as they do... or why the State Troopers in most states train in a very similar manner. Its because these people are being groomed to face life-threatening situations and they very well may have to do it all alone. I live in Nebraska... the Nebraska State Patrol training academy is run VERY MUCH like Marine Corps boot camp. The Lincoln and Omaha police departments, by contrast train their recruits in a manner similar to a three month business administration seminar mixed in with some PPCT training for empty handed self-defense, and some firearms training.

Why the difference? Well, in Lincoln or Omaha, if an officer gets into trouble, his backup is MAYBE 3-4 minutes away at the most -- and they'll probably get about 5-10 officers to assist them in that short amount of time. A State Trooper on the other hand may literally be 30 minutes or more from the next nearest cop, and when he/she arrives, it might be the lone deputy sheriff from the next county. I would venture that the average Lincoln or Omaha police officer would be ill equiped to be able to handle a bad situation-turned horrible situation nearly as well as a Trooper, if they're more than 15 minutes from help. Thats the analogy I'm making between serious, traditional training and the training people get at the local family-fun-center McDojang.

The McDojang environment of the majority of martial arts schools these days is simply NOT the kind of environment that adequately prepares someone to be prepared to literally fight for their life -- much less to do so in spite of injury or exhaustion.

Mike Burnett, Sa Joo
Shin Koo Hapkido
Yoo-Sok-Kwan
Lincoln, NE

[Thomas]

I personally think that a school needs to establish a kind of atmosphere and stick to some basic rules. For example, in our school we adhere to our dress code and we do the flag salute and traditional style approach. We also tend to be fairly serious and stay on task pretty rigidly. Students know that the beginning of class is for warm ups, basic forms, and striking practice and that the end of class opens up into more exciting stuff.

By being serious, we can bring in more extreme drills and a higher level of contact. It works for us. However, each instructor varies their own style when teaching. We keep the same environment but teach a bit differently... we can do that because students are well versed at what is expected behaviour of them. That's the way we do it.

Other schools use a more relaxed manner... it works for them because of their environment and instructors... now if you try a super strict approach in a relaxed school, it probably won't be well received and vice versa!

[hapkiyoosool]

It is hard pressed to find a real traditional Hapkido Dojang outside of Korea.

My wife and I moved here from Korea 3 years ago and opened up a Very Traditional Dojang in FL.

Many people just can't believe the difference in what we teach and what they have seen here in the US.

Mu instructor studied under Choi, Young-Sool. We teach it just as I learned it growing up in Korea.

It does make a difference how you train and how much your teacher teches you. Most people just take your money.

If I have a student that just wants to get a good work out, I send them to a McDojo.

I teach Hapkido. Period.

We are also having a seminar in November reagarding this and acupunture, etc. All the info is on our website.

[Kwajman]

Wow, what a great thread! All of the points made were very well made and defended. I'm just a brown belt, but what I see is when students who attend class and really aren't there to learn TKD strut around and brag about their belt color. For myself, through very hard work, I hope to make black belt. But I will have no illusions about my skill level. We have black belts that couldn't beat a drum, yet wonder why they do so poorly at tournaments or when they visit other schools and demonstrate forms, breaking etc.

I know that I'm not young and flexible enough to do certain things, I know my limitations. But that doesn't mean I can't be serious about my art does it? Since I can't do certain jumping kicks as well as others does that mean I automatically can't be promoted? I find your answers/opinions/input to be fascinating!

[bdish]

I agree that the quality of today's martial arts has diminished.
I am a Hapkido 4th dan...I have studied with the same Korean master for twenty years now. I've noticed a big difference in students then and now....as you noted a lack of commitment and serious attitude. I don't think that many of them would tolerate the way that I was originally trained. The negativity that you described from a student seems all to prevalent, many seem to give up before making an effort. If this is a person's attitude on the street in an actual self defense situation the repercussions could be serious. Many lessons learned in the dojang are of course applied to everyday life....not only self defense scenarios.
I'm not certain anything can be done to change the McDojang attitude except to continue teaching the correct way. Just my opinion.

[Spikedude]

I also agree with what you said. i trained for one of my first schools at a kenpo studio called amerikick that offered everything u said. i thought that my skills wouldnt get better because the teachers held me back because i didnt give extra money, but i found a great new intructor who does it all for the love of the art. which is hard to find around here also but i say do what im goin to do and not let every school turn into a mcdojo and teach the way it should.

[hapkiyoosool]

You guys have an understanding to Traditional arts. I like it.

Traditional arts do not compete(or shouldn't) because you could kill someone. Well, people have died playing Basketball, so.....

The "modern" arts are more like, " Keep kicking each other with those pads on and get gold medals to make yourself feel important instead of being a family and team, now pay me!" If you can't pay, you don't get extra attention. Austerity is what I have in mind, not "Look at me mommy!"

I have students in our school that can't pay, I have them tend to the upkeep of the school and things. They give as they receive.

Then there is the extreme. There is an Aikido school nearby where the teacher has the students go to her home and clean it and paint it and.......did I mention sex? I too was suprised at this until I learned how she got her high Dan rank in Aikido from her instructor. Oh MY! Some of her students spilled the beans.

I think you will appreciate our November Seminar. There is more infromation on it in our website.

[Kwajman]

Yeow, I guess that is extra attention, tho I don't think most instructors would approve somehow...................................

[Kosh]

My instructor is very relaxed towards teaching Hapkido, he doesnt believe in being over strict. He does however believe in respect, but he actually belives that respect for your partner is the most important thing.

This post reminds me of a lesson a few weeks ago. Master Kim had been to teach the Durham Police, which he does every week now. He said when he walked in all of the police men were very sceptical and all standing arms crossed and slouched, wondering what he could teach them. But by the end of the lesson they were all standing perfectly and bowed to Master Kim.

[AaronK]

I think comparing regular students in a Mc-dojo atmosphere and marine/st. trooper training is unfair. Im a marine, and I dont know what system they had in place when you came through, probbably line training, they have MCMAP now with a belt system, getting your bb takes quite a while. (not nearly as long as a traditional martial art) and the training is very intense. In a regular civilian environment people do things because they WANT to, unlike in the corps where we do things because we HAVE to. Also, when we sparred we didnt use helmets/gloves, you get punched you get punched, you cant do that in a civil environment because you would get sued. You will rarely find a good mix of students who have a strong desire to learn without having some lazy people that may be there for the wrong reasons. i.e. being able to beat someone up. Expecting marine results from people with the luxury of free-will is something that you should give up, because it is rarely found.


Aaron.

[Mark_Campbell]

i think the main problem with people seeing martial arts in a bad light is the fact that any tom dick or harry can open a school with a recognisable "karate" in the name and people will go along and become disillutioned with martial arts due to poor training and false promises


martial arts dilution and mcDojangs are a product of poor managment at the beginning of martial arts interest in the west

if i had a time machine i`d go back and patent the names karate, judo,taekwon-do,aikido,jitsu,kung fu etc so i could get a $100 everytime someone used them without my express consent, i think that woudda helped stopped the "daves ultimate karate" or the "master bill 300th dan in his own fighting style, a mix of taekwon-do kickboxing etc etc"

dont get me wrong theres plently good instructors out there as either part of organisation or independant who are capable of teaching life saving , confidence building, fitness enhancing martial arts.. the problem is for every one of them there are 2 cowboys out there. who get a black belt training for a year, or worse go out and buy them, and we can all think of a few people like that right??

[hapkiyoosool]

I like this quote though from KICKCHICK
Fortunately Hapkido is one of the few korean arts to remain untouched by sport competition or influence... for now. I agree!