muay thai - silat

[Kertas]

salam and hi to all non muslim people...

i would just like to know if there are any silat guys who fought a mauy thai fighter and what the outcome is.

i am particularly interested in knowing the loopholes in their system. i love anylising these things.

:)
terima kasih banyak

[Orang Jawa]

salam and hi to all non muslim people...

i would just like to know if there are any silat guys who fought a mauy thai fighter and what the outcome is.

i am particularly interested in knowing the loopholes in their system. i love anylising these things.

:)
terima kasih banyak

Just to reminding you Kertas, Its not the martial arts system make you better fighter, it help but its not guarranty and never was. It is the individual skills and will makes the better fighter.
Tristan

[Zealot]

I sparred with a muay thai fighter once.He was just playing around,but it seemed his tactic was to keep at a distance and try kicking rather than go in for elbows or knees.
I found tha Silat has some effective moves which can be used to neutrallize a punch or kick and force the muay thai user to keep away,because it gives the Silat user an opening to counterstrike.

[Wali]

salam and hi to all non muslim people...

i would just like to know if there are any silat guys who fought a mauy thai fighter and what the outcome is.

i am particularly interested in knowing the loopholes in their system. i love anylising these things.

:)
terima kasih banyak
The loopholes is not not get hit by a good Thai Fighter, cos those guys can HIT!

Silat or no silat, if they connect, your going down, whoever you are.

I have to 2nd what Tristan said, it's not necessarily the art, but the skill and determination of the person...

To give you an answer that's more catered to what you were expecting, you'll find that most Thai Boxers only train against other Thai Boxers. This means that they primarily learn to defend against Thai-style attacks. In my limitied knowledge of Thai boxing, this is primarily striking, and not too much close up choking and grappling. With this in mind, you could try and get close enough (easier said than done!!!) and try and choke them out... but like I said, not an easy thing to do... without taking some serious licks on the way at least....

[tim_stl]

In my limitied knowledge of Thai boxing, this is primarily striking, and not too much close up choking and grappling. With this in mind, you could try and get close enough (easier said than done!!!) and try and choke them out... but like I said, not an easy thing to do... without taking some serious licks on the way at least....

not really. muay thai also focuses on the 'clinch' where they train to outmaneuver their opponent and land some knees that will hopefully end the fight. there's one primary position they focus on that makes it easy to control the opponent, and the natural reactions to this position are what they want you to do. one leads your face right into a very strong knee, the other leaves you open to a strong knee to the side of the head.

in my opinion, the major weakness of the style is that it's a sport. outside the confines of the rules, it's lacking. best thing to do is the same old advice of not playing their game.



tim

[Wali]

not really. muay thai also focuses on the 'clinch' where they train to outmaneuver their opponent and land some knees that will hopefully end the fight. there's one primary position they focus on that makes it easy to control the opponent, and the natural reactions to this position are what they want you to do. one leads your face right into a very strong knee, the other leaves you open to a strong knee to the side of the head.

in my opinion, the major weakness of the style is that it's a sport. outside the confines of the rules, it's lacking. best thing to do is the same old advice of not playing their game.

tim
True. My knowledge of Thai Boxing is limited, as stated.

If you had to break down the percentages in terms of striking vs clinching,what would your average ratio be?

[fire cobra]

hi guys,i think i have a good vantage point on this one as i have been training silat for 18 years and muay thai for 23 years (feel old now!) muay thai is a very efficient sport,stripped down of all movements that have low percentage application in the ring,the majority of gyms in thailand concentrate on the kick,knee and elbow mainly then the fist,this is because the hand is gloved and the other weapons you can use the bone. The plam or grappling is a big part of modern day thai boxing and the boxers train that area everyday for a minumum 1 hour,the training methods of the weapons(kick,knee,elbow,punch) are very good and in my opinion that is the main reason for the efficiency of the thai boxer.
Muay boran or old style boxing was quite different to modern day muay thai and actually has a feel and look of some styles of silat in some ways,muay boran has the locks/breaks chokes,takedowns and ground strikes that cant be used in the ring nowadays.the modern day muay thai boxers are proffesional fighters and not martial artists as such,so they would never compare their art against others,their interest is very much in putting food on the table!.
there is silat in thailand and i actually trained at a gym last year that had a silat group using the gym( at different times to the boxers). the universities sometimes have silat groups,and there is more silat in the south of thailand than the north as far as im aware. it is very hard for me to compare 1 art to the other,or at laeast against each other as it would mean fighting myself! he he. i will say though that the modern day boxer will take some beating,they have a very high threshold to pain,are very conditioned,strong as bulls with great technique and timing,add that to the fact that they fight(apply their art) regularly,in some cases twice per week,having in lots of cases more than 200 fights,and that they have the main element of muay thai which is jai(heart) soo or fighting heart,they take some stopping regardless of what style you train. the weakness is ground work as they dont have it ,dont train it,and dont need it! as its a sport and proffesion,however i will say if you can take em down you would really have to know your ground work etc as they take some keeping down. i know that my silat training has improved over the years because of implementing some thai training methods,i enjoy both systems,styles.arts,sports,whatever we want to call them,my research over recent years has taken the path of seeing the similarities with muay boran and silat and im lucky to be flying to thailand tommorow to train in muay boran in the south. i hope this post may of been of interest to you guys,and that i havent waffled a bit to much!(feel i may have!) good training everybody :)

[Ular Sawa]

Have a good trip Mate. If it's not too much trouble, give us a report when you get back. Cheers!

[tim_stl]

True. My knowledge of Thai Boxing is limited, as stated.

mine as well. i've only been training in it for less than a year.

If you had to break down the percentages in terms of striking vs clinching,what would your average ratio be?

this would probably be a better question for fire cobra or the muay thai forum, but i would say it depends on the gym. if i had to guess, i would say it averages to about 30% of the time spent on the plam. i haven't seen fights in thailand, but from the ones in the u.s. and europe that i've seen, very little fight time is spent there.



tim

[fire cobra]

thanks ular sawa.i will do a report when i get back. tim stl,your correct of a 3 hour workout around 45min-1 hr is spent on clinch work,this is done 2x a day in most camps. :)

[mylifejr]

All martial arts system is nothing if you not practice more and hard work. It depends to the person. Although that martial art system is powerful than others, it still depends to you.. Like Orang Jawa said, "your skills".. ;)

Just my 2 cents..

[Pekir]

During an exam I attended a Aiki Jutsu sensei asked a graduate what was the most important part of his Katana. The student looked at his sword and couldn't find the easy answer. So his sensei helped him out. The answer was you yourself.

In my opinion the practitionera abilities defines for the greater part the effectiveness of a martial art. A very fine martial art and a crap practitioner is worse than a streetsmart (street)fighter without martial arts training.

Hormat Pekir

[Joe Aaron]

Training in both I must say there is no easy answer, but silat would be better in real combat (I mean when your fighting for your life) but muay thai would beat it with rules to say the persilat could not use gouges and chokes and strikes to vunerable points (eye,groin etc).

[fire cobra]

Joe,dont forget in a "real fight" nak muay(thai boxers) could and would eye gouge ,bite,head butt etc etc,i know i would! :)

[nasigoreng]

I remember a muay thai - silat matchup in one of the early UFCs:

The silat fighter crouched down to elicit a roundhouse kick to his head/body. when it came, he slipped and he got pushed into the corner and pounded.

in a fair fight, i would probably bet money on a well-trained muaythai
fighter against a silat fighter with equal attributes.

But having said that, pencak silat to me means cheat
strike the knees, groin, throat, and eyes... no rules
this is why we don't see it being successful in tournament fighting.

[TheMightyMcClaw]

I remember a muay thai - silat matchup in one of the early UFCs:

The silat fighter crouched down to elicit a roundhouse kick to his head/body. when it came, he slipped and he got pushed into the corner and pounded.

in a fair fight, i would probably bet money on a well-trained muaythai
fighter against a silat fighter with equal attributes.

But having said that, pencak silat to me means cheat
strike the knees, groin, throat, and eyes... no rules
this is why we don't see it being successful in tournament fighting.

I don't really understand your point. If it was one of the early UFC's, than aside from the eye poking, all of those strikes would've been acceptable. Also, what would prevent the Thai boxer from throwing his knees and kicks to the groin, or his punches to the eyes and throat?

[Wali]

Also, what would prevent the Thai boxer from throwing his knees and kicks to the groin, or his punches to the eyes and throat?
Absolutely nothing.

There is a big underestimation of other arts in some silat circles under the blanket of "rules" and "sport". Thai Fighters are dangerous individuals who shouldn't be underestimated for 1 second.

Silat CAN be used in contact sports, and there is much more to it than eye gouging, biting, etc... It has a comprehensive ground array and strikes, which can easily be ported onto the ring/mat/octagon...

Bottom line is that excuses of how dangerous silat is, and how it cannot be used in the ring, simply don't cut it. The quicker we realise that, the sooner the art will get the recognition and acceptance it deserves...

[fire cobra]

I agree wali,i teach a mma fighter (good scrapper) i showed him silat one day for fun,he loved it and said why dont we use these things in the cage! i said " coz you dont know em!" he he :)

[Viking]

Master Sken showing some locking,breaking stuff of Muay Thai
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Z-vuDHKxDpU&mode=related&search=

has got really fast strikes .

[Gajah Silat]

Hmmm, I don't know where this misconception that all we do is poke people in the eye comes from :confused:

Anyway...
Originally Posted by TheMightyMcClaw
Also, what would prevent the Thai boxer from throwing his knees and kicks to the groin, or his punches to the eyes and throat?

Conversely, we also have punches, elbows, knees & kicks :confused:

Viking, most silat has techniques that are the same or similar to those in the clip. There is certainly a relationship between Muay Boran & Silat. After all, Thailand and Malaysia do share a border and there is Silat in southern Thailand....or is it Muslim Muay Boran ;) ?

Wali, fully agree but does silat tend to attract 'the type' that aspires to be a UFC champion? Probably not. They'll most likely be down the MMA club & have never even heard of silat. There is also the question of numbers-there are relatively few persilats in the west to make it onto the UFC type scene in the first place.

Also, many persilats have trained extensively in other arts, some to very high levels. Some are ex-military, law enforcement and doormen. So, maybe we're not quite as gullible as some might believe ;)

[fire cobra]

There is also silat in bangkok and of course other ares of thailand not just the south :)

[Gajah Silat]

Ma'afkan aku! Sorry...Kaw thot, should have said predominantly in the south :p

Silat is very popular in Vietnam too!

Anyways...MT in Thailand is usually a job & not a hobby, so as professional fighters they are used to taking a battering on a regular basis. Then again, some silat styles, notably Cimande, also have extreme conditioning.

Your average bout of Pub-Fu has little in common with the ring, gym, gelangang, dojo or whatever you train in. And different arts suit different individuals-one size doesn't fit all in MA.

Most of all, we all know it's the individual & not the art and these X v Y threads are often just an excuse for a "my arts better than yours" rant.

Enjoy your time in BK Firecobra and stay away from those damned farangs ;)

[fire cobra]

Mai pen rai gajah,and thank you i will enjoy(i hope) thailand,even with the bloody farangs he he he :)

[Gajah Silat]

He he mai pen rai....tidak apa apa, nggak masala..........

I once met an Aussie who's thang was to learn the phrase 'No worries" in every country he visited. However no matter what apparent farang/bule free area I tried to find, 'ol no worries dude was always there :confused: How do Aussies always manage that? Stalkers maybe :eek:

Please, thankyou, sorry & no worries/problem are a must where ever you go. :)

Will be in Indonesia in a few weeks myself, where at least you don't end up with a BeerChangover :D Maybe the odd Bintangover though :confused:

[pengolahanjunki]

I've studied MP for 3 years,and I spar with a guy who has been doing Muay Thai for 4 years. I find them to be more alike than not. It seems to me that if you strip down all the flowery stuff, you are left with something pretty close to old style muay thai. That's what we, in our limited experience have noticed. As far as being in shape goes, MP kicks your ass and I know from going to local MMA comps that I am in better fighting shape than a good portion of the competitors. I am tempted to find out just to test myself but my Mas do not allow us to fight in competitions at this point in time.

As far a being too deadly and such, a good martial artist should be able to adjust his level of power and response to the level of threat. I know from personal experience that a silat practitioner can hit someone and ring their bell without using a excessive amount of physical force. I fought an advanced student for a test and it felt like he was shocking my nervous system more than punching me, and afterwards I was not hurt the way a fight should hurt later. Which to me means that was was capable of incapacitating me without hurting me too much. You should be able to adapt to the ring.......

[nasigoreng]

Your average bout of Pub-Fu has little in common with the ring, gym, gelangang, dojo or whatever you train in. And different arts suit different individuals-one size doesn't fit all in MA.

Most of all, we all know it's the individual & not the art and these X v Y threads are often just an excuse for a "my arts better than yours" rant.



i agree totally. Now that i think about it, it's not really fair to compare silat vs. M.T. because unlike M.T. , which is fairly homogenous, silat is extremely diverse in tactics, movement, and techniques.

M.T. typically isn't taught as a self-defence art but as a sport. Different goals, different mind-set, different training. In fact, I remember reading or hearing how MT fighters (in thailand) vow not to use their skills outside the ring because it would be like a "spiritual demerit" (.... i think they're just too tired to get into scraps after running 20k everyday).

[Gajah Silat]

[QUOTE=nasigoreng]i agree totally. Now that i think about it, it's not really fair to compare silat vs. M.T. because unlike M.T. , which is fairly homogenous, silat is extremely diverse in tactics, movement, and techniques.
QUOTE]

Exactly. Excellent point.

To use the term Silat without stating what style is pointless. Might as well say are "Martial Arts" better than......er.....martial arts :confused:

Of the thousands of styles there is a style of Silat that has similarities with almost every other art out there.

So, saying "silat is...this, that or the other" is pointless to begin with

This is why the blanket statements such as the old Silat is rubbish chestnut, are so idiotic and annoying

However, I think most of these are type of rants are based on someone seeing a Silat Pulut video on youtube. Obviously they are so skilled in MA that they cannot distinguish between a wedding and a fight :p

[Gajah Silat]

Interesting, albeit very brief, article that yet again points out the Thai MA & Silat similarities :)

Elements of the traditional system can still be seen in Thailand, particularly in the practise of Krabi Krabong, a weapons system from which Muay Thai eventually developed, and in the Sila and Chaiya fighting systems of which very little is know. In fact Chaiya is only practised in its original form by a very small group of individuals in Bangkok, and is being taught by Acharn (Master) Thonglaw Yarlair, now well into his sixties. Archarn Thonglaw is quite clear that the practice of Chaiya is not for sport, but is a serious and dangerous self defence system, and so does not attract the number of students like Muay Thai. The practitioners still practice with hands wrapped in bandages, each being over 15 metres long. Traditionally these bandages were made from the winding sheets of the dead (so as to scare the opponent) but the custom has been abandoned. Training the mind plays as important a role in the Chaiya fighters routine as does the physical, where the adage "use 4 ounces to move a thousand pounds" is put into practice, with the emphasis being on using the opponents strength and aggression against them, rather than your own brute force. With only a handful of students left, it looks as if this very important part of Thailand’s martial arts may die out altogether, and be relegated to the history books, or transform itself into a ritual dance akin to Sila, a fighting system indigenous to Thailand, which is more often than not practised as a dance. It bears remarkable similarities to Silat as practised in neighbouring Indonesia and Malaysia, and is technically just as destructive.
All of these arts have one thing in common, in that they are not so much defensive systems, as offensive systems. Once attacked, any practitioner of any one of the many arts will immediately go on the offensive, destroying the attacker mentally and then physically, with no onslaught of blows

from
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/phraya-pichai/muaythai/emptyhands.htm

[fire cobra]

Gajah,although Muay Chaiya(as seen now) is very good,has lots of techniques that muay thai(sport version) doesnt use in the ring,i would guarantee that if any nak muay of the modern version fought the muay chaiya exponent nowadays it would not last very long! the muay thai exponent would win for sure :)

[Gajah Silat]

FC, I just posted the link as a point of interest as I have little idea of what Muay Chaiya consists of but I can see some common ground in MT with certain punches, elbows & kicking low with the shin that we use.

Likewise, I have no illusions whatsoever as to the effectiveness of MT having seen many fights in Thailand & once getting soundly beaten in a bit of friendly sparring with a MT fighter :cry: I do not doubt a seasoned MT fighter would win against most in a punch up.

However, I think my chances of getting attacked by a nak muay outside the ring are pretty slim. :p

[fire cobra]

Gotcha gajah,i understand you posted for the interest.I agree there is a slim to non chance of getting attacked by a nak muay in the street!,enjoy your training brother :)

[nasigoreng]

when i first started learning Pencak silat Cingkrik Goning, I had a lot of doubts about its effectiveness. I thought some of the movements in the jurus were just silly and useless in a fight. After studying 1 year, and learning the applications, I'm slowly becoming aware of the concepts in these "silly movements" and how they can be used in a fight.

Because I've had training in MMA (mixed martial arts), I know the right questions to ask myself in order to determine the efficacy of PS techniques against an MMA-style opponent. In short, having studied MMA, i know what techniques could work against a resisting opponent.

it's doubtful PS teachers in Indonesia can get the same experience here because there are so few schools teaching muay thai / MMA in Indonesia. So, even though the guru may be able to do some 'on the spot' analysis and come up with a good counter-attack, I consider myself a good judge of what might realistically work. My teacher comes up with great counters but we can't duplicate the same intensity of a realistic sparring session. but that's ok because i'm not looking for a K.O. punch.... instead, i'm looking to create certain reaction that will get me in position for a takedown.


i see "links" connecting all my martial arts knowledge including BJJ, Thai boxing, and kali/silat.... in BJJ i learned "position before submission" and I think that's true for all ranges of fighting: It's footwork, footwork, and footwork. If you can get your tools in proper position for delivery, then you have an opportunity to defeat your opponent with an attack that disturbes their balance and sets up those pretty throws and takedowns.

against a thai boxer for example: i would step on his lead foot. then I would use my tenaga dalam :woo:

[sulaiman]

How come everybody seems to have forgotten that we are comparing 2 different types of bird ?

Muai thai is a competitive sport , performed by athletes in a ring for prizes and titles, following an accepted standard of rules and proceedures.

Silat is a combat art performed by warriors for the purpose of battle, taking and saving lives, following absolutely no accepted or standard rules whatsoever.

For me what distinguishes silat, or Martial Arts ( as opposed to competitive fighting arts ) is WEAPONS.

My greatest tactic against a thai boxer would be to stab, maim ,crush or generally brutalize him with whatever sharp or blunt instrument i could find.

Kicking is for donkeys
Silat is for men

I remember a story of a thai boxer who persisted in trying to fight a silat master in London
After the silat master repeatedly refused to fight him the thai boxer was amazed and shocked when , after throwing a kick at the silat master , he swiftly had his leg broken , ending the fight, and also his career in Thai boxing.

[fire cobra]

Sulaiman,what you are forgeting is a thai boxer can also pick up a weapon/weapons! silly argument though i admit as nak muay are sportsmen,but dont forget they are as capable as the next person of using weapons other than the 8 natural weapons of the body they use every day for 6 hours!(how many hours a day does the average martial arts practicioner practice?) Also sorry but the story of the"thai boxer" in london you wrote about isnt much of a stoty to compare silat vs muay thai! :)

[doc_jude]

Sulaiman,what you are forgeting is a thai boxer can also pick up a weapon/weapons! silly argument though i admit as nak muay are sportsmen,but dont forget they are as capable as the next person of using weapons other than the 8 natural weapons of the body they use every day for 6 hours!(how many hours a day does the average martial arts practicioner practice?) Also sorry but the story of the"thai boxer" in london you wrote about isnt much of a stoty to compare silat vs muay thai! :)

What weapons does Muay Thai have in it's curriculum? This is amazing, I didn't know that they train with weapons.

[fire cobra]

Doc jude,sorry for any misunderstanding in my post,what i meant was a thai boxer is capable of picking up any weapon(stick knife brick etc) not because he is a thai boxer but because he is a human being!. having said that doc j,thailand has its own weapons system called krabee krabong(actually im in thailand studying it right now) :)

[slipthejab]

Muai thai is a competitive sport , performed by athletes in a ring for prizes and titles, following an accepted standard of rules and proceedures.

Silat is a combat art performed by warriors for the purpose of battle, taking and saving lives, following absolutely no accepted or standard rules whatsoever.

You really don't have any idea about Muay Thai do you? I think you should learn you're history before you post. It also helps if you learn how to spell things correctly... it's Muay Thai.
:rolleyes:

Kicking is for donkeys
Silat is for men

Could you drench your post in any more silly machismo if you tried? :p

I remember a story of a thai boxer who persisted in trying to fight a silat master in London
After the silat master repeatedly refused to fight him the thai boxer was amazed and shocked when , after throwing a kick at the silat master , he swiftly had his leg broken , ending the fight, and also his career in Thai boxing.

Sorry but this story just sounds like fantasy land. Care to back this up with any credible citation... or is this another one of the infamous - I heard from a guy who has a cousin that knew a friend that had an aunt that went to school with a guy who heard somewhere... types of stories? :p

[SCP_Kensei]

Yeha I remember a story too...

Once upon a time there was a girl who wore a Bright red riding hood. One day her mother asked her to bring a basket of food to he Grandma who lived deep in the scary forest....

Ring any bells?

Silat is an effective martial art, trained right, Muay Thai is an effective martial art, trained right.
Now Silat is a TMA, a "War art" if you will, therefore it teached some nasty, often fatal techniques. However Silat practitioners do not CANNOT practise these techniques with aliveness in a civilised society, evensome of the simple takedowns of Harimau can be doo dangerous to apply full force in training.
Muay thai on the other hand practises aliveness, with ful force evry time the Nak Muay hit's the mats or the ring.

So you have a few things to consider, the lethality, but untested nature of the techniques in the Silat practitioner's arsenal, Vs the destructive, well drilled techniques of the Nak Muay.

The Nak Muay KNOWS he can hit you with a Dtae Chang quick enough and hard enough to take you down, he KNOWs he is fit enough to go the distance.
He also knows what it is like toget badly hurt, and keep on going.

does the Silat guy????

I love Silat (I start Private lessons in a mixed origin system next week), I love Muay thai, But I have to say, i think your average twice a week Silat guy is more than likely to get owned by your average twice a week Muay Thai guy due to fitness, and fighting experience.

[Khatami]

I am currently practising Silat Tua ( a form sometimes known as Gayong Pattani) and my teacher's teacher hailed from Pattani in Thailand. My teacher Guru Zainal Abidin was a seasoned Thai boxer who had competed and won tournaments in Thailand yet he was soundly beaten by the man who was to become his silat teacher and who was twenty years older than him. This convinced him that silat, which he had learnt when he was younger was a valid art.

That being said Guru Zainal insists that all his students learn Muay Thai before they do Silat Tua otherwise they are unaware of the importance of being able to both take and give out extreme measures of pain. His Muay Thai students have repeatedly beaten quite senior silat exponents, not because silat is inadequate but because their level of pain tolerance and conditioning is superior.

Guru Zainal is featured on the front cover of this month's Seni Beladiri and is also the author of a new book on silat called Silat Tua - The Malay Dance of Life. (More details on www.silatmelayu.com)

Best wishes
Nigel Sutton

[sulaiman]

Sulaiman,what you are forgeting is a thai boxer can also pick up a weapon/weapons! silly argument though i admit as nak muay are sportsmen,but dont forget they are as capable as the next person of using weapons other than the 8 natural weapons of the body they use every day for 6 hours!(how many hours a day does the average martial arts practicioner practice?) Also sorry but the story of the"thai boxer" in london you wrote about isnt much of a stoty to compare silat vs muay thai! :)

Logically, who would have the advantage with a weapon, the one who consistently practises with weapons, aiming for vital/fatal strikes or the guy who is used to hitting non fatal targets with his hands and feet. ?

For a comparison between Silat & Muay Thai , have you heard of the long running competition between them at Betong on the Thai side of the Thai /Malay border.

The Thai fighters have NEVER won

The Thai warrior art is Krabi Krabong, this is a weapons art and these are the warriors who fought for the king , if there is to be any comparison with silat , then this art is more appropriate.

I do not see that " kicking is for donkeys " is a MACHO statement, in fact the reverse is true, it is the macho man who puts his strength in his muscles and fists.

We are silat practitioners, we like to keep our hands soft, we do not compete on brute force or aggression.
Our advantage is skill and dexterity, and in combat this advantage is represented by weapons

Adios

[Kiai Carita]

For a comparison between Silat & Muay Thai , have you heard of the long running competition between them at Betong on the Thai side of the Thai /Malay border.

The Thai fighters have NEVER won



Salaams all,

As Muay Thai is simplified/Westernized silat in a ring using gloves, it is not fair to make a Muay Thai fighter fight a silat player. Even without weapons the silat player has the advantage of having his fingers. True, silat players don't normally train like gamblers' fighting-cocks till they bleed in pain like Muay Thai fighters do, but an average 8 hours a day silat player at the age of 72 would easily walk-over the average Muay Thai fighter twenty years his junior.

Good silat is the best martial-arts possible, if anything is better, the good silat would absorb it and make it its own-lah. Having said this, good silat has been in dialogue and war with good Chinese, Japanese, Arab and Indian MAs for a long-long time. Silat is the original Mixed Martial Art and is also a philosophy.

It is true.
Bram.

[slipthejab]

Logically, who would have the advantage with a weapon, the one who consistently practises with weapons, aiming for vital/fatal strikes or the guy who is used to hitting non fatal targets with his hands and feet. ?
err... and this uber deadly fantasy match up is taking place where?
In your head? :rolleyes:


For a comparison between Silat & Muay Thai , have you heard of the long running competition between them at Betong on the Thai side of the Thai /Malay border.

The Thai fighters have NEVER won

Good... since you seem to know so much about it... I'll let you post something credible to that effect. I'm sure since you're the expert on this you'll know the Lumpini rankings of the Thai fighters involved... or perhaps their WMC rankings... or at the very least the camps and Khru's the the fighters have trained with/under.

No doubt you can explain the rule set used in these bouts.

Fouls?
Number of rounds?
Round length?
Referee?

I've actually spent a fair bit of time in Yala - the province that Betong is in... would you mind letting me know where in Betong these matches are held? :confused:

I'll wait... please post them. :rolleyes:

I do not see that " kicking is for donkeys " is a MACHO statement, in fact the reverse is true, it is the macho man who puts his strength in his muscles and fists.

You're attempt to be dismissive of Muay Thai only makes you look like you've got a sever inferiority complex. Referring to people that have the discipline to train as donkeys is pathetic and says more about your ability to communicate.. or actually lack thereof in a respectful manner.

Wow... good to see your a spokesperson for Silat. :rolleyes:
It's honestly the first time I've seen a Silat practitioner come across with such a dismissive attitude of another martial art.

We are silat practitioners, we like to keep our hands soft, we do not compete on brute force or aggression.

Err... so which is it?
Just a few lines ago you were referring to deadly matches in which no Muay Thai fighter ever won... and now you're contradicting that by saying that you don't compete with brute force or aggression. I've yet to see a fight that didn't have aggression in it.

So really which is it? :confused:


Our advantage is skill and dexterity, and in combat this advantage is represented by weapons

Ok... so again I'm asking you to provide some proof or evidence of these uber deadly weapons skills against nak muays... you're the one who brought it up so the onus is on you to provide the proof. Credible citations, links, video clips.

I'm really curious to see what you come up with. I'm sure others are as well.
Please let us know.

[slipthejab]

Salaams all,

As Muay Thai is simplified/Westernized silat in a ring using gloves, it is not fair to make a Muay Thai fighter fight a silat player. Even without weapons the silat player has the advantage of having his fingers. True, silat players don't normally train like gamblers' fighting-cocks till they bleed in pain like Muay Thai fighters do, but an average 8 hours a day silat player at the age of 72 would easily walk-over the average Muay Thai fighter twenty years his junior.

Good silat is the best martial-arts possible, if anything is better, the good silat would absorb it and make it its own-lah. Having said this, good silat has been in dialogue and war with good Chinese, Japanese, Arab and Indian MAs for a long-long time. Silat is the original Mixed Martial Art and is also a philosophy.

It is true.
Bram.

riiiiight.
And I'm sure you can actually back this up with something right?

Seriously... you're living in a fantasy world.
Nice... but it's only a fantasy. :D

In fact... I found your post so ridiculous that I started a whole new thread with some questions for you in it. It's even got your name in the title:
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66005

[TheMightyMcClaw]

How come everybody seems to have forgotten that we are comparing 2 different types of bird ?

Muai thai is a competitive sport , performed by athletes in a ring for prizes and titles, following an accepted standard of rules and proceedures.

Silat is a combat art performed by warriors for the purpose of battle, taking and saving lives, following absolutely no accepted or standard rules whatsoever.

For me what distinguishes silat, or Martial Arts ( as opposed to competitive fighting arts ) is WEAPONS.

My greatest tactic against a thai boxer would be to stab, maim ,crush or generally brutalize him with whatever sharp or blunt instrument i could find.

Kicking is for donkeys
Silat is for men

I remember a story of a thai boxer who persisted in trying to fight a silat master in London
After the silat master repeatedly refused to fight him the thai boxer was amazed and shocked when , after throwing a kick at the silat master , he swiftly had his leg broken , ending the fight, and also his career in Thai boxing.

As some of you know, I had an extremely bad experience at a Silat school in Ann Arbor. I gave them a chance, and I gave them my money, and I got some funky looking Javanese dance moves in return. These statements reminds me of the insecure, macho posturing the instructors and senior students engaged in regarding Brazilian Jiujitsu. They quite often reminded me of how Silat was vastly superior to other martial arts, ESPECIALLY Brazilian Jiujitsu, and maybe tell some stories about how Silat masters could catch sword blades with their bare hands. Then we would do jurus for an hour with no explanation of application, or anything that I saw as really relating to fighting. It was the perfect example of "All bark, no bite."
I'm really, really glad I went back to BJJ.
If you want to convince people that Silat is the deadly master art you claim it is, show me something. I've heard Silat, Wing Chun, aikido, Ninjutsu, and who-knows-what-else practitioners make the same unsubstantiated claims about the deadly advantages of their styles over all others. It doesn't impress me any more.
You talk about secret fights on the Thai/Malay border where Silat practitioners remain supreme, yet still unseen. We talked about a fight in the old pre-rules UFC where a Silat fighter got knocked unconscious on national television by a Muay Thai fighter. Who's claim is more dubious?
This is a lot more confrontational than my usual postings, but I'm so sick of people trying to use silly conjectures to 'prove' the supremacy of their arts, and the tendency to attack fighting systems which have been tested in martial arts competitions (ie, Muay Thai, BJJ). Like I said, it's all bark, no bite.

[Khatami]

Sulaiman,
Do you have any first-hand evidence and/or details of these fights in Betong? I would be interested to know whether the Malay fighters were using silat or Tomoi. The latter is the name which Muay Thai as practised by ethnic Malays is known. There is a lot of Tomoi practised in the Malay States bordering Thailand. Tomoi exponents are tough and practise in almost the same way as their Thai counterparts.

Incidentally there was recently some kind of mixed martial arts event in KL and despite some silat exponents entering, I understand the majority of winners were MT exponents. I am aware that this was a sporting event but I would wager that the average MT practitioner in Thailand undergoes a lot tougher training than the average silat exponent in Malaysia. This is not to say that one art is superior to another.

Sad to say there is a lot of what the Chinese call "mouth Gong Fu" in martial arts circles in Malaysia (I am sure there is in a lot of places) and I have personally experienced a number of cases where sometimes quite high-ranking silat exponents have said they would do this or that to a Thai boxer. In every case when put to the test IF they actually turned up they came something of a cropper. As a silat exponent I do not see this as demonstrating the weakness of my art, rather I see it as a sign that I should try to incorporate something of the spirit and attitude of Muay Thai training into my own practice.

Best wishes
Nigel Sutton

[fire cobra]

Nice posts slip and khatami,easy to see the experienced posters on here,you have both written my thoughts better than i could,thank you both. :)

[Pekir]

Come on, are we serious martial arts practitioners?

Either you choose to train 'martial arts' or you choose to train 'martial sports' and some people are convinced they can do both. When one chooses to train 'martial sports' of any kind one will be able to state how good (or not good) he is being a champion or not and on what level. If you choose to train 'martial arts' and therefor can not compete you can't or shouldn't claim anything. Just train hard and be satisfied. Someone elses perfomance isn't yours simply because every martial art is as good as its practitioner, nothing more nothing less. My teachers teachers may have been a killer (he wasn't) but this doesn't make me a killer.

let's get serious now....

Pekir

[SCP_Kensei]

Nice words. I wouldn't be so down on those who do both martial "Arts" and "Sports".

I myself study several arts, but because I devote enough time to them I am not harming my progress in one by doing another.

[sulaiman]

Hi All,

Well I have to say I am surprised at everyones surprise,

a silat guy , on a silat forum who thinks Silat is better as a combat art than Muay Thai !!

Of course I think Silat is better, that is why I train it and not Muay Thai
( that and the fact that I just wouldnt feel good in the shorts ! :)


Slipthejab, Real life is not " official ", it does not have a certificate to prove you participated.

I am not dismissive of Muay thai, although personally no, I dont like it.

Donkeys kick , men kick ,
donkeys kick better.
I've yet to see a donkey that can pick up a sword convincingly, therefore...

quote You're attempt to be dismissive of Muay Thai only makes you look like you've got a sever inferiority complex. Referring to people that have the discipline to train as donkeys is pathetic and says more about your ability to communicate.. or actually lack thereof in a respectful manner.

My friend, nowhere did I dismiss the discipline to train, as silat practitioners , we will be training well into our old age...unlike Thai Boxers.


quote Wow... good to see your a spokesperson for Silat. :rolleyes:
It's honestly the first time I've seen a Silat practitioner come across with such a dismissive attitude of another martial art

I dont think I set myself up as anything other than a spokesman for myself, and on that level , I will say what I think.

This is not the "official " ,written in stone, World Annals of Martial Arts Encyclopedia, its an internet dicussion forum between a buch of blokes who like martial arts.. Lighten up .. :Angel:


quote Err... so which is it?
Just a few lines ago you were referring to deadly matches in which no Muay Thai fighter ever won... and now you're contradicting that by saying that you don't compete with brute force or aggression. I've yet to see a fight that didn't have aggression in it.


What I said was that we do not rely on brute force or aggression, we have other tools.
In Silat melayu , we always train against larger stronger partners whenever possible.
In practise we assume the opponent is stronger, this means we dont rely on overwhelming with muscle power.
Hope this clears your confusion

quote Ok... so again I'm asking you to provide some proof or evidence of these uber deadly weapons skills against nak muays... you're the one who brought it up so the onus is on you to provide the proof. Credible citations, links, video clips.

I'm really curious to see what you come up with. I'm sure others are as well.
Please let us know.

Sorry , we both know you would dismiss any evidence and its really not the point anyway.
You are being naive to presume there was any such thing as judges and certificates.

If you dont know about something,it doesnt mean it doesnt exist !

I myself have more than enough evidence for the uber deadly weapons skills of my teachers, and that is enough for me, and no ,it wasnt written in any books, or posted on you tube, neither do they have any certificates or rankings to prove it... only their lives..

Adios Amigos

[Khatami]

Hi Sulaiman,
Do you have any more details of these fights in Betong? I have been asking around here and no one has heard of any such fights.
I must admit when I mentioned this story to Guru Zainal his reaction was more extreme than I was expecting. He made the strong point that he has never come across a genuine case of a silat fighter beating a Muay Thai fighter in an unarmed encounter. The fact that he has trained in and teaches both "classic" Muay Thai and several systems of silat makes his view one with authority. A further point he made was that in the Malaysian silat world such stories are all too common but there is seldom any evidence of their truth. He strongly feels that such stories do not do us silat exponents any favours. We have to stick to what is Truth. The reality is that in an unarmed encounter between the average silat exponent and a practitioner of Muay Thai the silat exponent would be at a severe disadvantage. This is not, as I have stated before, because the art is somehow deficient but because of comparative fighting experience and levels of conditioning.
I agree entirely that the silat exponent should be well-versed in weapons usage but do not think that a Muay Thai exponent would not also be trained in weapons. If we are talking about an exponent of one of the many styles of village or classical Muay Thai then the weapons and skills of Krabi Krabong might well also be a part of their training.
Furthermore it is erroneous to suppose that the skills of Muay Thai may not be practised into old age. Again if we are talking about village styles then there are many old veterans who continue their practice throughout their lives.
Once again I must state that I think silat is an excellent martial art as is Muay Thai, and as indeed are all martial arts. If we want our art to improve rather than considering who would kill who in a fantasy fight, we should surely, be looking at the strengths of each system and how we can learn from them.
Here on Penang there are many styles of silat, perhaps one of the most fearsome being Siku Duabelas. Yet even the masters of this style acknowledge that Muay Thai fighters are to be respected.
I would like to extend a sincere invitation to anyone interested in the comparative merits of different styles of silat and Muay Thai to visit us here in Penang. We are hospitable folk and there is no shortage of training oportunities.
Best wishes
Nigel Sutton

[slipthejab]

Well put.
Finally the voice of reason from the Silat side.

I'd like to make it abundantly clear to the Silat community here at MAP that I don't have an issue with Silat per se... but I do take exception when people start posting unsubstantiated fantasies about uber deadly battles between Silat practitioners and nak muays.

Not only are they divisive to the practitioners of different MA's here at MAP but they also do a massive disservice to Silat as well... reducing it to about as much phony relevance as chop socky Kung Fu exploitation films.

[slipthejab]

Hi All,

Well I have to say I am surprised at everyones surprise,
a silat guy , on a silat forum who thinks Silat is better as a combat art than Muay Thai !!

Of course I think Silat is better, that is why I train it and not Muay Thai
( that and the fact that I just wouldnt feel good in the shorts ! :)

Thinking one is better to train in as a matter of personal preference I take really no issue with. It's everyone's perogative to train in what they will. I've never suggested it be anything other than that.

Again what I take exception with is unsubstantiated stories and rubbish posts by people who a very limited understanding of Muay Thai. Generally posted along the themes of 'our art is uber deadly... we even defeat nak muays' :rolleyes:


Slipthejab, Real life is not " official ", it does not have a certificate to prove you participated.

If you post something then you should be able to substantiate it with citations or credible evidence to that effect. If not... don't be surprised when someone calls you on it and it turns out to be sheer fantasy.

I am not dismissive of Muay thai, although personally no, I dont like it.

No one said you had to. Comparing people who train in martial arts that kick to donkeys is being dismissive. In just about any culture comparing someone to a donkey would be considered offensive.

Either you don't understand that or you need to work on you communication skills... or both.

Donkeys kick , men kick ,
donkeys kick better.
I've yet to see a donkey that can pick up a sword convincingly, therefore...

1) see my response above

2) you do realize you're not fooling anyone with your strawman argument right?


My friend, nowhere did I dismiss the discipline to train, as silat practitioners , we will be training well into our old age...unlike Thai Boxers.

Again... you're attempting to take a swipe at nak muays by stating that Silat practitioners will be training into old age where as nak muays won't. This is patent rubbish... of course nak muays won't be training at the same level in laters years that they would have when they were younger... but then again... I don't recall anyone ever stating that. So again... you're setting up a classic strawman argument... something that is easy for you to knock down. But... no one is arguing what you've made people out to be saying.

I'd have to say it's infinitely easier to be training Silat into old age as the level of physical exertion never meets the same levels that nak muays train at in their competitive days. If it does... then surely you can provide some examples. Please do... it'll be interesting to see if you can.

In addition to that... nak muays do train into their later years... who do you think runs the the training camps? Who do you think the Khru's are Fairtex, Jocky, Sidyotong and other famous camps in Thailand.

Apidej Sitharun and Orono Por Muangubol are two nak muays well past their fighting prime who still train and teach. Do they train at the level they did when they were 17... obviously not... but no one from any art trains at the same intesity level in their later years as they did when they were in their early years.

What you're trying to argue is patently absurd.


I dont think I set myself up as anything other than a spokesman for myself, and on that level , I will say what I think.

I'm sure othe Silat practitioners are thankful of that.

This is not the "official " ,written in stone, World Annals of Martial Arts Encyclopedia, its an internet dicussion forum between a buch of blokes who like martial arts.. Lighten up .. :Angel:


It's nice when people can post accurate and logical insights into their arts. When they post erroneous information backed up only by a ill informed understandings of arts they obviously have very little experience in... then it's not really that great for anyone here at MAP.

Sorry , we both know you would dismiss any evidence and its really not the point anyway. You are being naive to presume there was any such thing as judges and certificates.

If you dont know about something,it doesnt mean it doesnt exist !

Umm no.
I'm more than willing to look at any credible evidence that you're willing to put up. Whether or not it's worthy of being considered credible is based soley upon the merits (or lack thereof) of what you present.

So far for all the grandiose claims you and Kiai Carita (brum) have made I've yet to see one iota to back any of it up. Based on what you've posted so far in regards to Muay Thai and nak muays it's readily apparent that you have a very limited understanding or exposure to Muay Thai.

So really... please post some credible evidence to back up what you're asserting. Kiai Carita (brum) has already shown that he's not able to back up what he says and he even refused to respond after he was called out about the validity of what he posted...

Why?

Becuase he's knows he couldn't back up what he said. He was quite simply talking out of his ass. Fantastic imagination... little hard evidence. I'm not surprised.

I myself have more than enough evidence for the uber deadly weapons skills of my teachers, and that is enough for me, and no ,it wasnt written in any books, or posted on you tube, neither do they have any certificates or rankings to prove it... only their lives..

Again - I don't doubt there are highly skilled Silat practitioners and teachers out there. As to how many of them have ever had any sort of bout with a nak muay... I'd be willing to bet it's a miniscule number. The whole comparison of nak muays to Silat practitioners is pointless from the get go... but it reaches greater levels of stupidity when people like Kiai Carita (brum) come on and start posting uber deadly kung fu style fantasies about fights that never happened.

Next time you discount someones style or chosen martial art... try to actually understand something about it. From you're posts it's obvious you don't have the faintest clue about Muay Thai. :rolleyes:

[Pekir]

Nice words. I wouldn't be so down on those who do both martial "Arts" and "Sports".

I myself study several arts, but because I devote enough time to them I am not harming my progress in one by doing another.

Kensei,

Wasn't meant to be 'down' on those who do both martial 'arts' and 'sports' My personal opinion may be in that direction but that has no bearing on what I meant to say in my previous post.

On top of this 'art' versus 'sports' are in my modest opinion not the same as practicing different martial 'arts' or 'sports'.

Pekir

[Pekir]

Well put.
Finally the voice of reason from the Silat side.

I'd like to make it abundantly clear to the Silat community here at MAP that I don't have an issue with Silat per se... but I do take exception when people start posting unsubstantiated fantasies about uber deadly battles between Silat practitioners and nak muays.

Not only are they divisive to the practitioners of different MA's here at MAP but they also do a massive disservice to Silat as well... reducing it to about as much phony relevance as chop socky Kung Fu exploitation films.

Slipthejab,

To be honest these talks about "silat being the better/deadliest martial art etcetera" are in the long run damaging for the art. I've seen advertisement for certain silat schools with this tone on the internet and in magazines over the last ten years and they are dissapointing to say the least.

It might be a consequence of commercial activities in the silat community but as a marketing professional I can tell you it is stupid even then. Never sell propositions you can't make stick, they will hit you in the face some time soon. In the Netherlands silat has been around since the early 1950's and some of the early exponents claimed out loud all kinds of unbeatable and invinceable stuff. In those days probably "one eye was king". To this day there still are (older) martial artist of other arts who have a certain kind of grudge towards the silat community because of the uncalled for 'big mouth'. This is probably not a selective silat problem but probably a problem any martial art have to deal with. But since I practice silat it 'hurts' my ears to hear this stuff.....

Pekir

[slipthejab]

Pekir,
I agree with you completely.
I think you are probably in the majority actually... and thankfully. I don't think that most involved in Silat are towing some absurd Uber Deadly line to be honest. This is exactly why I think it's important to point out in threads such as this just how silly such claims are. As I've stated so many times in this thread... I'm more than willing to look at credible evidence and such... but frankly I don't expect any of the exponents of the Uber Deadly approach to provide any.

The whole Uber Deadly thing does reek of insecurity and/or snake oil sales pitch. Neither of which I'm sure the vast majority of the Silat community agree with or are victim to.

[sulaiman]

Hi guys,

Wow, we really seem to be missing each others point here.
If you read my original post you will see that I ( rightfully ) stated that it is fruitless to compare silat & muay thai ,
I reiterate again.., they are different categories of art.
One is a sport , the other is still , despite the attempts of many to the contrary , not.
All agreed so far ?

I then commented that the essential advantage that silat possesses over Muay Thai is the use of weapons.
In my book a weapon is the great equalizer of force.

Have you ever seen a bull fight ?
Sure the bull is big & mean, super strong and aggressive, with raw instinctual power and bloody great horns to gore with.
Add to that his charge and sheer presence and you have a formidable foe.
True enough, occasionally some people get gored, horribly.
But 9 times out of 10 , that puny little man , dressed in weird yellow spandex and waving a red blanket gets that bull.
How , weapons and skill my friends.



]

[Kiai Carita]

.....Again what I take exception with is unsubstantiated stories and rubbish posts by people who a very limited understanding of Muay Thai. Generally posted along the themes of 'our art is uber deadly... we even defeat nak muays' :rolleyes:....
If you post something then you should be able to substantiate it with citations or credible evidence to that effect. If not... don't be surprised when someone calls you on it and it turns out to be sheer fantasy.
No one said you had to. Comparing people who train in martial arts that kick to donkeys is being dismissive. In just about any culture comparing someone to a donkey would be considered offensive.
Either you don't understand that or you need to work on you communication skills... or both.

1) see my response above

2) you do realize you're not fooling anyone with your strawman argument right?

Again... you're attempting to take a swipe at nak muays by stating that Silat practitioners will be training into old age where as nak muays won't. This is patent rubbish... of course nak muays won't be training at the same level in laters years that they would have when they were younger... but then again... I don't recall anyone ever stating that. So again... you're setting up a classic strawman argument... something that is easy for you to knock down. But... no one is arguing what you've made people out to be saying.

I'd have to say it's infinitely easier to be training Silat into old age as the level of physical exertion never meets the same levels that nak muays train at in their competitive days. If it does... then surely you can provide some examples. Please do... it'll be interesting to see if you can.

In addition to that... nak muays do train into their later years... who do you think runs the the training camps? Who do you think the Khru's are Fairtex, Jocky, Sidyotong and other famous camps in Thailand.

Apidej Sitharun and Orono Por Muangubol are two nak muays well past their fighting prime who still train and teach. Do they train at the level they did when they were 17... obviously not... but no one from any art trains at the same intesity level in their later years as they did when they were in their early years.

What you're trying to argue is patently absurd.




I'm sure othe Silat practitioners are thankful of that.



It's nice when people can post accurate and logical insights into their arts. When they post erroneous information backed up only by a ill informed understandings of arts they obviously have very little experience in... then it's not really that great for anyone here at MAP.



Umm no.
I'm more than willing to look at any credible evidence that you're willing to put up. Whether or not it's worthy of being considered credible is based soley upon the merits (or lack thereof) of what you present.

So far for all the grandiose claims you and Kiai Carita (brum) have made I've yet to see one iota to back any of it up. Based on what you've posted so far in regards to Muay Thai and nak muays it's readily apparent that you have a very limited understanding or exposure to Muay Thai.

So really... please post some credible evidence to back up what you're asserting. Kiai Carita (brum) has already shown that he's not able to back up what he says and he even refused to respond after he was called out about the validity of what he posted...

Why?

Becuase he's knows he couldn't back up what he said. He was quite simply talking out of his ass. Fantastic imagination... little hard evidence. I'm not surprised.



Again - I don't doubt there are highly skilled Silat practitioners and teachers out there. As to how many of them have ever had any sort of bout with a nak muay... I'd be willing to bet it's a miniscule number. The whole comparison of nak muays to Silat practitioners is pointless from the get go... but it reaches greater levels of stupidity when people like Kiai Carita (brum) come on and start posting uber deadly kung fu style fantasies about fights that never happened.

Next time you discount someones style or chosen martial art... try to actually understand something about it. From you're posts it's obvious you don't have the faintest clue about Muay Thai. :rolleyes:

Warm salaams, to all but Slipthebag - to you, no salaams. You are a rude warmongering bully who spreads falsehoods for amusement. I pray may Allah keep His Curse you until you change your ways!

Silpthebag, you know that I don't think your thoughts are of any importance to make it useful for one to respond to - I told you that in a PM, which, uncivilizedly you posted up somewhere- but though they are not at all important and neither are they interesting, they are annoying because they are full of sh*t. I would just like to point out to people who you are trying to impress, that the words UBER DEADLY are from YOU and not from any silat practitioner in this thread.

As for who you are and what your intentions are, I would like to point out the RUDE and DISRESPECTFUL thread you began about Cimande Macan Guling recently. Also let the community consider the way you hijacked this thread and made it as you were defending commonsense against silat people who were saying their art was UBER DEADLY - which are YOUR WORDS. There are many indications that suggest a deep relationship between silat and Muai Thai (you CAN spell it that way, Slipthebag, -remeber swiping Sulaiman for spelling it Muai Thai? - it is JUST as correct as YOURS: there is no ONE way to transliterate Thai)

Dedicating a thread to ridicule me and a post I made, demanding I give you proof about a hypothetical opinion, attacking Sulaiman with your childish jabs, using derrogative language to abuse an Indonesian silat player on Youtube (the Cimande Macan Guling player Gorka filmed) is probably a way you get your kicks. You are a keyboard warrior, or is Mas Tris' words: wet pu*sy. A mature human would not conduct himself like you do.

I would like to alert the moderators on the conduct of this man in this thread, the thread on Cimande Macan Guling and also on the thread set up specifically to attack me, which also makes a PM public - that is very uncivilized. Is this what the MAP is about?

As a person, I would fight 10 keyboardwarriors like Slipthebags any day, anywhere, anytime.

Warm salaams to all,
and curses to those who deserve them,
like Slipthebags and other wet pus*y.

Bram.

[TheMightyMcClaw]

Isn't it SliptheJAB?

[slipthejab]

Warm salaams, to all but Slipthebag - to you, no salaams. You are a rude warmongering bully who spreads falsehoods for amusement. I pray may Allah keep His Curse you until you change your ways!

Silpthebag, you know that I don't think your thoughts are of any importance to make it useful for one to respond to - I told you that in a PM, which, uncivilizedly you posted up somewhere- but though they are not at all important and neither are they interesting, they are annoying because they are full of sh*t. I would just like to point out to people who you are trying to impress, that the words UBER DEADLY are from YOU and not from any silat practitioner in this thread.

As for who you are and what your intentions are, I would like to point out the RUDE and DISRESPECTFUL thread you began about Cimande Macan Guling recently. Also let the community consider the way you hijacked this thread and made it as you were defending commonsense against silat people who were saying their art was UBER DEADLY - which are YOUR WORDS. There are many indications that suggest a deep relationship between silat and Muai Thai (you CAN spell it that way, Slipthebag, -remeber swiping Sulaiman for spelling it Muai Thai? - it is JUST as correct as YOURS: there is no ONE way to transliterate Thai)

Dedicating a thread to ridicule me and a post I made, demanding I give you proof about a hypothetical opinion, attacking Sulaiman with your childish jabs, using derrogative language to abuse an Indonesian silat player on Youtube (the Cimande Macan Guling player Gorka filmed) is probably a way you get your kicks. You are a keyboard warrior, or is Mas Tris' words: wet pu*sy. A mature human would not conduct himself like you do.

I would like to alert the moderators on the conduct of this man in this thread, the thread on Cimande Macan Guling and also on the thread set up specifically to attack me, which also makes a PM public - that is very uncivilized. Is this what the MAP is about?

As a person, I would fight 10 keyboardwarriors like Slipthebags any day, anywhere, anytime.

Warm salaams to all,
and curses to those who deserve them,
like Slipthebags and other wet pus*y.

Bram.

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! :D

So.... for someone who didn't think my thoughts were important enough to repsond to you sure came back in to try and save face. But your a bit late.
People are on to you.

Bram, you are a fake a fraud and a phony. You're stories are total fantasy BS and you're not big enough to back them up with anything credible or substantial. You've ducked and dodged direct questions put to you about what you've posted and failed time and time again to back them up with anything credible.

As far as I'm concerned your name isn't Kiai Carita or Bram... it's mud.
You've got your panties in a knot because someone called you on your silly Kung-Fu style fantasy stories about Uber Deadly Silat.

Wake up dude.
Go cry your eyes out to the MODs all you want.
If you can't back up what you post when asked I don't expect the MODs to jump in and mollycoddle your silly ass. If you had enough confidence in your version of events you'd have no reason to not post and let us know all about these Uber Deadly Silat vs. Muay Thai matches that you say have happened. But nope... that never happened... funny that. :D

You also were unable to post anything credible to back up your story about the wise old men of Silat being able to outfight nak muays who are in their prime. :D

Sorry but despite all your bluster and late hyperbole we see your posts for what they truly are... BS.

[fire cobra]

Khatami,could you pm me please? ive tried to send you a pm(ref training in penang) to no avail,thanks :)

[Wali]

Guys, why don't we all calm down and take a back seat on this. MAP has a good history of healthy debating, but when things get personal, it takes away from the learning and the fun of logging onto the site.

There are plenty of other forums where people slag each other off, and we should keep this one free from such nonsense.

Let's draw the line with what has been said by all, and move on.

Come on Rodney, you know it makes sense... cushti :p

[Sgt_Major]

closed pending investigation

[Sgt_Major]

Gentlemen, please post in this thread with a little more maturity. It is a good thread, with good discussion.

Kiai Carita has been Temp Banned for 3 days for personal attacks and repeated profanity.

I will leave his post there as a reminder for everyone else how NOT to respond to questions/posts.

I do NOT want to see his post quoted in further posts to this thread.

Thread re-opened.

[sulaiman]

Hi Nigel,
Nice to see you posting.
To resume this thread ( after such dramatic episodes -MOD , Did it not take 2 to tango, I thought Bram was quite restrained after the insults flung at him by our resident silat fan stj !)

[QUOTE=Khatami]Hi Sulaiman,
Do you have any more details of these fights in Betong? I have been asking around here and no one has heard of any such fights.

You know malaysia sir, the answers depend on who you ask :cool:


Quote. I must admit when I mentioned this story to Guru Zainal his reaction was more extreme than I was expecting. He made the strong point that he has never come across a genuine case of a silat fighter beating a Muay Thai fighter in an unarmed encounter.

The point of my post was that the advantage the silat guy has over the thai boxer is weapons.
I didnt mention unarmed combat.
Besides which, I have heard a lot of stories from my silat teachers , and fellow students about unarmed fights with Thai Boxers..

(No STJ, they are not on youtube, and I dont have their names and addresses.!)

quote The fact that he has trained in and teaches both "classic" Muay Thai and several systems of silat makes his view one with authority. A further point he made was that in the Malaysian silat world such stories are all too common but there is seldom any evidence of their truth. He strongly feels that such stories do not do us silat exponents any favours.

Again what evidence do people expect - police files ?

quote We have to stick to what is Truth. The reality is that in an unarmed encounter between the average silat exponent and a practitioner of Muay Thai the silat exponent would be at a severe disadvantage. This is not, as I have stated before, because the art is somehow deficient but because of comparative fighting experience and levels of conditioning.

I dont agree, why would a silat practitioner be at a disadvantage ?
A good silat teacher will give his students a lot of fighting experience and a good level of conditioning.
As well as training lots of empty hand buah, lots of different pukulan.
Where would the disadvantage be ?

A silat practitioner would have the distinct ADVANTAGE of immediately going for vital and weak points , of locking limbs and joints , with the option to immobilise or break.

Silat has a complete arsenal of concepts and applications.
Traditional training IS intensive, daily and lifelong.

I am not an apologist for silat.
I do not disrespect other arts, but yes, I think silat is better.
Why would anyone practise something they thought was not very good ?
Anyone who who doesnt think the art they are practising is the best is just being political

quote I agree entirely that the silat exponent should be well-versed in weapons usage but do not think that a Muay Thai exponent would not also be trained in weapons. If we are talking about an exponent of one of the many styles of village or classical Muay Thai then the weapons and skills of Krabi Krabong might well also be a part of their training.

True , a thai fighter may well have done a bit of krabi krabong, but then a silat practitioner may also have done some kickboxing !

Weapons training is not part of Muay Thai training but punching & kicking IS studied in silat.
Therefore silat as a style has the advantage.
How hard the punches and kicks are is a matter between individuals.

quote Furthermore it is erroneous to suppose that the skills of Muay Thai may not be practised into old age. Again if we are talking about village styles then there are many old veterans who continue their practice throughout their lives.

I would like to hear more about this, as I do not know how the Thai Boxing system progresses.
In silat, the old practitioners I met kept up their jurus & langkah etc but also kept to quite rigorous Batin/ meditational and breathing exercises.
Is there an equivalent in Muay Thai ?

quote Once again I must state that I think silat is an excellent martial art as is Muay Thai, and as indeed are all martial arts. If we want our art to improve rather than considering who would kill who in a fantasy fight, we should surely, be looking at the strengths of each system and how we can learn from them.

Surely mental training is an important part of training.
We are encouraged to visualize fights often.
Not to live in a fantasy world, but to engage the imaginative and mental faculties into the system.

adios

[Khatami]

Hi Sulaiman,
My main point is, I guess, that the silat wolrd here in Malaysia is full of stories about how deadly the art is, how my teacher killed Bruce Lee, Hang Tuah lives just up the road and I learned from a deadly Bomoh etc. But that in my limited experience and in that of those senior exponents I know here on Penang Island there is no substantiation for stories of silat exponents beating Thai boxers.
As you know Penang is even more of a cultural melting pot than the rest of Malaysia and the local martial arts reflect that. There is and has been a great deal of interraction between the different races and martial arts groups so stylistic "comparisons" are nothing new here.
As to hard silat training I am not qualified to speak. In the styles that I have practised, Lian Padukan, Silat Melayu Lok Sembilan, Silat Embo and Silat Tua, the training has sometimes been rigorous but nothing like as hard as training in a Thai boxing camp. I must stress that I have not experienced the latter (I'm far too corpulent and lazy for that!) but my teacher and seniors have.
Once again I must point out that I practise silat and for me it is the culmination of all the arts I have trained in and learnt; but I endeavour to be as realistic and honest in my approach to training as possible. What I most value about silat is that it is an art of survival, an art of life and encompasses the physical, mental and spiritual. You talk of using weapons, well in Silat Tua, if our kampong were to be threatened by another which was full of deadly martial artists then we would try to make friends with them and if that failed we would poison their water supply! And yes we learn poisons as a part of the more advanced syllabus. The Silat Tua we practise comes from Pattani, now a part of Thailand but for hundreds of years an independent Malay Kingdom which was perennially at war with Thailand, so there is some degree of focus in the art on fighting Thais. With that being said my teacher, who is one of only four to graduate from his teacher's system still holds that in his experience he has not met a Malaysian silat exponent who can beat a person trained in Thai boxing in an unarmed fight. He is also quite open to anyone visiting him to discuss these things (in a friendly manner) and also open to physically demonstrating his point of view.
As to batin, breathing practices etc, in my personal experience of Guru Zainal's family White Tiger system of classic Muay Thai there are several sets of breathing exercises, a full system of meditation and what might be termed visualisation, and various other esoteric practices. Weapons taught include the Thai swords, staff, bamboo shield (krabong) and the knife.
Anyway sorry for the rambling post. If anyone wishes to contact me concerning training in Penang they may do so through the Zhong Ding website. www.zhong-ding.com
Best wishes
Nigel Sutton

[Rebo Paing]

This is indeed a foolish thread.

Just to reminding you Kertas, Its not the martial arts system make you better fighter, it help but its not guarranty and never was. It is the individual skills and will makes the better fighter.
Tristan

This is where this thread should have stopped :rolleyes: .
Where is Orang Jawa when we need him? My friend, I hope that all is well in your life! All my best wishes in your direction!

I do think though that there is a predisposition for Sgt_Major to zero in on KC ... that's just my opinion of course, but maybe there are some loyalties showing here just as I too am showing my loyalties ... so ndak apalah, not a problem :) .

At this point I will advise that this is a silat forum ... if a person has a question about silat, they will get better mileage if the question is also respecful of silat. I have observed some of the language on recent threads, and it appears to me that the language is sometimes of a trolling nature.

To my silat friends, the stalwarts of this forum, please be troll aware and do not respond. Such threads do not deserve a response of any sort.


Salam hormat,
Krisno

[slipthejab]

Hi Nigel,
Nice to see you posting.
To resume this thread ( after such dramatic episodes -MOD , Did it not take 2 to tango, I thought Bram was quite restrained after the insults flung at him by our resident silat fan stj !)

...

[Sgt_Major]

Being called upon to provide evidence to support claims does not equal personal attacks.

The issue is still under investigation, and I can assure you there was no personal loyalties involved in temp banning Kiai, his behaviour ensured it was being done.

[doc_jude]

Logically, who would have the advantage with a weapon, the one who consistently practises with weapons, aiming for vital/fatal strikes or the guy who is used to hitting non fatal targets with his hands and feet. ?

For a comparison between Silat & Muay Thai , have you heard of the long running competition between them at Betong on the Thai side of the Thai /Malay border.

The Thai fighters have NEVER won

The Thai warrior art is Krabi Krabong, this is a weapons art and these are the warriors who fought for the king , if there is to be any comparison with silat , then this art is more appropriate.

I do not see that " kicking is for donkeys " is a MACHO statement, in fact the reverse is true, it is the macho man who puts his strength in his muscles and fists.

We are silat practitioners, we like to keep our hands soft, we do not compete on brute force or aggression.
Our advantage is skill and dexterity, and in combat this advantage is represented by weapons

Adios

I must say, in my style of Pentjak Silat (Ratu Adil) we don't like to keep our hands soft. I elbow/punch/chop/palm a speedbag full of steel bearings, I beat the shiznit out of my forearms, and I would assume that my shin and foot conditioning is at least close to as intense as the average Muay Thai student. Of course, I apply teh Jao liberally :rolleyes:
I wouldn't say that Silat folks like to stay sensitive and not "soft".
Just my take.

[fire cobra]

Doc Jude,could you tell me the reasons you do that type of conditioning? :)

[doc_jude]

Uh, I don't understand the question. Why condition my hands/arms/elbows/legs/feet?
So I don't hurt them when I'm wailing on someone. That's the first answer that comes to mind.
Why do YOU think that someone would condition their limbs if they are involve in fighting arts?

[slipthejab]

doc_jude,
in light of that... I'm curious... how often do you actually fight someone?

[doc_jude]

doc_jude,
in light of that... I'm curious... how often do you actually fight someone?
In my adult life, usually once a year or so.
Bad luck, I guess.
Mostly I condition because it hurts when Ray bangs his shins/forearms against mine and he laughs when I complain. That's what makes me condition. That, and he gave me a speedbag full of steel shot & showed me how to hit it, so that's what I do. I also found out how much he paid for all that steel shot, and the time he spent putting the damn thing together. I'd be a real jerk not to use it.

PS: Pre-apology for the Thread Drift. :D

[slipthejab]

Mostly I condition because it hurts when Ray bangs his shins/forearms against mine and he laughs when I complain. That's what makes me condition.
I can't argue with that. :D

[fire cobra]

Why does Ray do that type of conditioning Doc Jude? :)

[doc_jude]

Why? Because it's silat. He grew up in Java, learning Silat. It's what he did as a student and he passed it on to us.
I thought that would have been rather obvious.


:)

[Gajah Silat]

Why? Because it's silat. He grew up in Java, learning Silat. It's what he did as a student and he passed it on to us.
I thought that would have been rather obvious.


:)

Loathe to get into a conditioning vs non debate but to add a personal aside.........

I was training in Java only last week with a teacher with heavily conditioned forearms & shins. It was almost sickening to make contact with these with my rather chunky European limbs.

I don't know with what, or how he conditioned his arms and legs :confused: .

I do know he did this because his teacher(his father) told him it was expected.

I do know those forearm blocks jarred me almost to the spine.

With full speed & power, I have no doubt they could quite easily fracture a skull or break a jaw(& before anyone pipes up, I've had two of the former & one of the later :rolleyes: ).

So I pretty much think this, yes sensitivity if you are fast enough.

However, 30 years or more of battering the beJaysus out of your forearms....c'mon you've really got some cudgels, & you're probably not even going to feel a parry of someones best shot.

Well, that's my mere murid take on it :Angel:

[Monyet Nakal]

Its tricky. I believe *some* conditioning is very beneficial if not a must for any martial artist, however I have seen what really heavy conditioning can possibly do to a person later on in life and I personally would rather stick with a moderate amount than pay for it later.

[Gajah Silat]

Pretty much agree on that. Would hardly want an 'ouch my forearms' scenario, but I must say I have no idea what future problems heavily calcified forearms or shins present.

Tendons, ligaments & soft tissue in general would present predictable future problems, but lumpy calcified bones....must admit I haven't a clue how this would cause problems.

Perhaps some ancient MAist with shins 'o' steel can help out here :)

[fire cobra]

Not all silat systems or practitioners condition their bodies in that way,im not saying its bad,just wondering the point when most people will never have to use the conditioning gained,personally i would rather put the time spent conditioning into other areas such as posture,breath etc. :)

[slipthejab]

Pretty much agree on that. Would hardly want an 'ouch my forearms' scenario, but I must say I have no idea what future problems heavily calcified forearms or shins present.

Tendons, ligaments & soft tissue in general would present predictable future problems, but lumpy calcified bones....must admit I haven't a clue how this would cause problems.

Perhaps some ancient MAist with shins 'o' steel can help out here :)

While I've not got shins 'o' steel :p I've always questioned the sort of conditioning that require people to hit bricks/tree/cement/steel etc.

In MT we achieve conditioning by use of the heavy bag and the thai pads. Both of which are soft by comparison to any of the things I've listed above.
If my understanding is correct the conditioning benefit from the heavy bag/thai pads comes from bone ossification - that is growth and improvement in bone density - due to repeated impact on the heavy bags. According to what I've read about ossification - it happens from the inside out.. so that bone becomes stronger by adding new bone material from the inside of the bone not from the outside.

Even when shins are conditioned from much time on the heavy bags/thai pads it doesn't mean they're indestructable and it doesn't mean it doesn't hurt to check an incoming kick. It does and will always hurt... usually what people are seeing when someone checks a full blown kick is not conditioning a fighter that is immune to pain... but a fighter that knows how to keep a poker face in a fight to put the other fighter off his game... the fighter checking the kick will still feel pain... even if he's got the increased pain threshold that fighters have. Getting out of the way through good footwork is always the first option in a fight and decent trainer will tell you this.

It's interesting because we don't do forearm conditioning per se in Muay Thai... yet when we hold the Thai pads for someone that's kicking... we are essentially absorbing much of that impact with the forearms. So I'd imagine there is some conditioning that takes place. If a kicker is a strong kicker I often end up with bruises on the forearm even when holding the Thai pads.
It's not impossible to break someones forearms with a good solid roundhouse kick - as was shown in the 2005 Kings Cup in Thailand when a French fighter had no choice but to check his Thai opponents kick with his forearms and resulted in a broken forearm.

For a bit there when we got different weather systems moving through I'd always be able to tell in advance... much like how old people do... it was because my shins would tell me. I'd had a rough year in the fights so my shins had checked a fair number of kicks..... but couldn't really be avoided - and so I focussed on a better massage/diet regimen and back to the heavy bag/Thai pads and it doesn't seem to happen anymore. But I think if you don' stay on top of it with rehabbing it... like any trauma it will effect you as you get older with more regularity.

In terms of steel shot.. it's interesting in the bags of shot that I've seen they've got a fair bit of give in them... so maybe it's not all that disimilar from hitting a heavy bag or Thai pads.

From both Boxing and Muay Thai we spend a huge amount of time punching so if anything I'd expect to see problems in my hands... but since we wrap properly and take care of them properly (massage etc.) I've never seen problems in my hands/wrists/shoulders from the Boxing and the Muay Thai.

Anyhow - that was my long winded 2 cents. :D

[sulaiman]

From both Boxing and Muay Thai we spend a huge amount of time punching so if anything I'd expect to see problems in my hands... but since we wrap properly and take care of them properly (massage etc.) I've never seen problems in my hands/wrists/shoulders from the Boxing and the Muay Thai.


So STJ , thai boxers like soft hands too ... :D

[doc_jude]

Forearm conditioning in boxing happens while training, doesn't it? If your guard is up, you're getting punched plenty in the arms. I say, that's good conditioning. Am I way off base or what?
My friend Terry Henderson (Boxer) never lost a dead-arm contest, not that I ever saw. He could take terrible blows, laugh, and come back harder.

As far as my conditioning goes, it's nothing compared to what Rudy Terlinden went through as a youth. They practically BATHED in DitDaJao after training. What my teacher has us doing now is what Rudy advocated later. "You're hitting flesh and bone, not wood or stone. You just need to be harder than the guy you're hitting, that's all."
Just an aside, I read in another forum from some eskrima guys that met Rudy, they were talking about his conditioning and were hitting him full power with sticks, and he just blocked everything with his forearms. Now, that's HARD.
Plus, a few minutes a day of conditioning like this, for the first year, is pretty much what is called for by my teacher. After that, it's just maintaining that level, which is easy.
Ray blocks and strikes with his forearms and anything below the contact point just goes numb. That, and his palm blocks and chopping block just plain burn. I hate that feeling, but he says that to be taken seriously, you have to do it. Especially in Pukulan Kemajoran, our other art.
When I look at this type of thing, this is what seems to enable silat fighters to be able to handle multiple opponents. Being able to simply execute a strong block that basically stuns the guy... reminds me of the strong blocks from Shorin Ryu, or Naha-te. Just destructive. You telegraph at all on these guys, & it's curtains.
I WANNA BE ABLE TO DO THAT.

PS: That, and superior footwork (Lanka Tiga/Empat, Jurus, etc)

[doc_jude]

Pretty much agree on that. Would hardly want an 'ouch my forearms' scenario, but I must say I have no idea what future problems heavily calcified forearms or shins present.

Tendons, ligaments & soft tissue in general would present predictable future problems, but lumpy calcified bones....must admit I haven't a clue how this would cause problems.

Perhaps some ancient MAist with shins 'o' steel can help out here :)

There are some incredible strikers that never crippled themselves. Even Mas Oyama had medical examinations many years apart, both stated that he suffered no debilitating effects from his conditioning. Just follow the rules, and get over the idea that you need to break things to make them stronger. Breaking the knuckles is crap, especially for me. I do Jujutsu too, and you can't grapple effectively with limited ROM in your hands.

One of the main things we do to condition our forearms, besides banging them with the next guy of course, is slapping them. We do all kinds of hand conditioning, chops, punches, palms/palm heels, and them we slap and strike our own arms. It would stand to reason that as your hands get more conditioned, so will your forearms if you keep up the intensity.
Just a thought. :)

[Gajah Silat]

Yeah, this was pretty much the lines I was thinking of. I just wondered if there had been any problems with bone conditioning.

Belting hell out of your forearms against someone elses or whatever, basically increases the thickness of the 'bone sheath', so this would do little other than to thicken & strengthen the bone. As we are generally battering the bony areas of the forearm I can't really see much of a problem there. :)

Agreed, a sickening bony thwack is much more than a block ;)

[doc_jude]

Yeah, this was pretty much the lines I was thinking of. I just wondered if there had been any problems with bone conditioning.

Belting hell out of your forearms against someone elses or whatever, basically increases the thickness of the 'bone sheath', so this would do little other than to thicken & strengthen the bone. As we are generally battering the bony areas of the forearm I can't really see much of a problem there. :)

Agreed, a sickening bony thwack is much more than a block ;)

My teacher has no problems that I can discern. Knowing your limits is the main thing. Just like weight lifting. You must tear the muscles to build them, but you don't want a sprain/strain. Just tear at a very finite, cellular fiber level, so they grow bigger.
Same with the bones. Stress them, don't break them.

[Taker]

salam and hi to all non muslim people...

i would just like to know if there are any silat guys who fought a mauy thai fighter and what the outcome is.

i am particularly interested in knowing the loopholes in their system. i love anylising these things.

:)
terima kasih banyak

Salam there!

As far as I had been with many friends who had been first hand or second hand witnessess to the art of muay thai, or commonly known in Malaysia as "Tomoi Siam", yes it was a very good art. What makes it a deadly art to many eyes is not just the techniques, but the rigorous training they had to endure, such as kicking banana tree trunk 1000 times a day, to make it to the finish line of the art.

So in order to answer your question, I had never actually fought a muay thai fighter first hand but I would love to share some stories I heard about them from my silat style, Silat Cekak Hanafi.

The founder of Silat Cekak, Almarhum Ustaz Hanafi Hj. Ahmad, had been given the task of spreding the style by the fromer Grandmaster, Pak Yahya Said. The first class started in Alor Setar Kedah in 1965, and continued southward to Kubang Semang, Bukit Mertajam in the state of Penang. There, a man named Ishak Bin Itam was a Muay Thai Instructor and had been teaching the art for 2 years.

Ishak Itam was a man who loved martial arts, who had studied 4 different types of Silat before learning the Muay Thai. After he was appointed as an Instructor of Muay Thai, he was very confident that there was no Silat in the Malay World that can defeat the deadly art.

So when the news of Silat Cekak class was opened near his area, he wants to try to beat Ustaz Hanafi in an ambush using his art. As the story goes, Ustaz Hanafi was going downstairs from a local townshop when suddenly Ishak Itam attacked him. By Allah's Will, Ustaz Hanafi had defeated Ishak Itam without causing serious injuries to him.

Feeling defeated, Ishak Itam learns Silat Cekak and after Almarhum Ustaz Hanafi passed away in 1986, he was appointed as the new Supreme Grandmaster of Silat Cekak until 1993 when YM Tuan Guru Md. Radzi bin Hj. Hanafi, the fourth son of Ustaz Hanafi, was appointed as the new Guru Utama to this day.

Hope I had enlighten you with this story. I will try to get more info on the matter next time. Salam.

[fire cobra]

Oh Pleeese! learn something about muay thai(real muay thai) and its instructors :)

[ICT]

I remember a muay thai - silat matchup in one of the early UFCs:

The silat fighter crouched down to elicit a roundhouse kick to his head/body. when it came, he slipped and he got pushed into the corner and pounded.

in a fair fight, i would probably bet money on a well-trained muaythai
fighter against a silat fighter with equal attributes.

But having said that, pencak silat to me means cheat
strike the knees, groin, throat, and eyes... no rules
this is why we don't see it being successful in tournament fighting.

Hello,

Muay Thai vs Silat and the Silat exponent getting beat up against the fence? I was wondering if you could please tell me in which UFC this took place?

I have watched/own 1 - 20 and never seen this. I did see in UFC 2 in the Exotic Arts Demonstration a Silat exponent demonstrate and when I inquired about him I was told he lost in the preliminary against Remco Pardoel the Netherlands Judo/Jujitsu champion but I have yet to see it on video.

I would like to see one of these fights if possible, does anyone have one have this fight on video or no where to get it?

Thanks,
Eddie Ivester

[Sgt_Major]

I'd like to see this too.

[Taker]

Oh Pleeese! learn something about muay thai(real muay thai) and its instructors :)

A great place to see Muay Thai or "Tomoi Siam" as it's known here in Malaysia is at the state of Kedah. As the state is bordering Thailand , the art of Muay Thai has been influencing the interest of keen martial artists here, as well as Silat Gayung Fatani that originated from the Malay occupied state of Pattani in Southern Thailand.

In many rural areas, deep in the villages, far from big cities, Muay Thai has been a very popular art for the masses, some even changed the name to Silat Tomoi, or Silat Muay Thai, but the techniques didn't really differ that much.

So to really see Muay Thai vs. Silat, or interested in interviewing those who had first hand experiences, I welcome you to Kedah, Malaysia! :Angel:

Salaam.

[ICT]

salam and hi to all non muslim people...

i would just like to know if there are any silat guys who fought a mauy thai fighter and what the outcome is.

i am particularly interested in knowing the loopholes in their system. i love anylising these things.

:)
terima kasih banyak

Kertas,

This is from my message board at http://www.s8.createphpbb.com/ict/viewtopic.php?t=25&mforum=ict

James,

I understand your concerns. A true Muay Thai practitioner is very tuff individual indeed.

The stuff outside the ring can be Thai Silat so I'm going to stay with components that are used in the ring but could be applied outside.

What Joel said has a lot of validation and I call it Fighting Spirit:

Balls/Bravery = To face an attacker that's meaner & bigger

Guts/Nerve = To actually stand and fight with that attacker

Heart/Courage = To keep fighting even when hurt and losing

Mind/Valor = The determination to do what ever it takes to stay alive & neutralize the attacker.

Most typical Muay Thai fighters can be gotten by a few things like outflanking skills, dropping low and attacking them below the knees.

Some I like to do is a leg trap or foot sector, also with out hand wraps it opens them up to hand destructions and another good one is attacking the feet, especially if they're barefooted.

So while they seem indestructible they aren't and like I have told many Thai practitioners if I thought it beat Silat I would still be doing it!

Sincerely,
Teacher: Ivester

[fire cobra]

Muay thai boran shares more similaritys with some styles(especially the training mentalitys)of silat than it does differences imho,the ring art of muay thai is awesum,the boxers are fit, strong, conditioned and skilled,of course they can be beat they beat each other all the time! you wont find a top nak muay without a loss on their record,why? because the competition is so high,they fight for a living not learn for recriation,life protection etc,but they are some of the most humble people ive ever met,they would not be interested in a silat style vs muay thai style debate unless they were guna be paid! then they would fight king kong! :)

[ICT]

Muay thai boran shares more similaritys with some styles(especially the training mentalitys)of silat than it does differences )

Yes it does. Muay Thai Boran depending on where it's from is/can be Silat and/or Silatish. I believe the Southern Chaiya is very close to Silat and Boran & Silat had to have come from the same parent system. I have heard both sides; Silat came from the Chupasart and that Boran came from Silat, either way they're both good and I don't care what came from where. I love both!!


they would not be interested in a silat style vs muay thai style debate unless they were guna be paid! then they would fight king kong! :)

I have to disagree with this as it pertains to the Southern Thailand and Malaysian border anyway. There are many stories of Thais vs Malays and there are Thai styles developed to beat "Silat" Malay styles and Silat styles developed to beat "Boran" Thai styles.

Both are competitive people and love a good contest, not to mention the whole my country/my style proud stuff.

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

[fire cobra]

ICT,guess i was thinking about the nak muay who box in bangkok and the ones i personally know when i wrote that,i know nothing about the malaysia vs thai fights,however i do mean the nak muay that box proffesionally wouldnt be interested unless getting paid,otherwise why jepodise a pay day for nothing if you see what i mean :)

[ICT]

ICT,guess i was thinking about the nak muay who box in bangkok and the ones i personally know when i wrote that,i know nothing about the malaysia vs thai fights,however i do mean the nak muay that box proffesionally wouldnt be interested unless getting paid,otherwise why jepodise a pay day for nothing if you see what i mean :)


Fire Cobra,

Yea your probably right. The sports guys would want a payday to fight just like no Western Pro Boxer would enter the UFC for those table scraps they give out.

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

[fire cobra]

Agreed ICT,fighters should be paid more in the UFC for sure,it can be health damaging! :)

[doc_jude]

In terms of steel shot.. it's interesting in the bags of shot that I've seen they've got a fair bit of give in them... so maybe it's not all that disimilar from hitting a heavy bag or Thai pads.

Ours has little to no give. It's for developing conditioning AND LATER PENETRATION. I had a friend that tried to hit it, outweighs me by at least 50lbs, the bag moved a few inches, and he ran away holding his hand. It's very heavy. You can dent it after training with it for awhile, but it will not flex.

[red_bry]

if any of you seen TPI fighting championship (indonesian mma event), there are a lot of silat practitioners who compete. One name i remember was Aji Susilo. He also fought in PRIDE THE BEST againts a chinese mma fighter.