djinn and spiritual silat

[alex0000]

can someone who’s is an experienced and knowledgeable silat practitioner please explain the meaning of 'djinn' and also the spiritual/paranormal aspects of silat...? it is rummered to be greatly supernatural and beyond the normal understading...

is it true or is it mythology and mysticism?

[Wali]

can someone who’s is an experienced and knowledgeable silat practitioner please explain the meaning of 'djinn' and also the spiritual/paranormal aspects of silat...? it is rummered to be greatly supernatural and beyond the normal understading...

is it true or is it mythology and mysticism?
a 'djinn' is an elemantal spirit/force that some silat people 'invoke' and attain temporary abilities, such as increased speed, strength, etc...

They are to be avoided at all costs. Take no shortcuts in your silat.

[Wolf]

Wha? Do they rub a lap to get this to work?

[Gajah Silat]

I wouldn't say I'm that experienced or knowledgable :)

Djinn is usually spelt jin by Indonesians and stems from the Arabic for 'spirit'.

There is Silat which embraces such things & others which do not. However, you have hit upon a vast and controversial subject here.

As for truth or mythology that would entirely depend on the individuals belief system.

Here, google some of this with 'silat' and see what you get. Ilmu batin, tenaga dalam, dukun, hantu, jiwa & more that I can't think of at the minute.

Even if people did practice this sort of thing, it is not information that is usually given out freely.

Probably best to stick with the physical aspect for the first 10 or 20 years at least ;)

[Gajah Silat]

Wha? Do they rub a lap to get this to work?

Mate if you are rubbing 'laps' you've walked into the wrong club, or strayed into Northern Scandinavia :D

[tellner]

What are djinn? Depends on who you ask.

To Muslims and many Jews and Christians from the Middle East djinn are powerful supernatural entities. Some are supposed to be good. Some bad. They are all considered dangerous and to be avoided, especially if they make you an offer like "Dude! Tell you what. I'll teach you some really cool martial arts if you'll just let me set up shop inside your brain for a little while."

To the Western-style rationalist they are delusions and superstitions. If you start talking to the voices in your head you need to see a mental health professional.

Pick your explanation. It still comes out as a bad idea.

Back in the dawn of the Internet, when we had to carry packets from one side of the room to the other and wind the magnetic cores for our computers by hand there was a Pakistani guy named Khalid Khan. He did Serrada and some kind of Pencak Silat. Over a few years he got stranger and stranger. He talked about how djinn taught him Silat and whispered the locations of people's secret Death Spots to him. The Silat was good, he said, but only djinn could do it right because you need ten fingers on each hand to manipulate a knife the way they do. It just got weirder from there.

I don't know if the evil spirits had an independent existence or whether they were a consequence of his deteriorating sanity. Either way, talking to his invisible friends while they ate his brain didn't do him much good. And from what people said his Silat was pretty lame.

[shax]

hmmmmm

it seems a lot of silat is involved in black magic and shirk.

however, some practice tassawuf and gain supernatural abilities but this is not the purpose of tassawuf. true sufis rarely use their supernatural abilities and when they do it is to help others.

[tellner]

That's a number ten-size can of worms, shax. I think there are a few things going on.

First, traditional Malay culture has a strong thread of animism and belief that there are lots of forces and spirits in the world that may be dealt with like other aspects of life. Naturally, this finds its way into areas where people are in danger such as fighting.

Second, some people just can't resist a shortcut. In this case I believe that the shortcut won't get you much but trouble. Whether there are "evil spiricks" as Popeye would say or not you can damage yourself pretty severely this way.

Third, most Silat is not like this. The overwhelming majority who just try to learn the art and become better fighters don't have time for the wierder parts. The ones who claim to have something more than hard work and time can offer make more noise and attract more attention.

I'd have dropped Silat within the first week or two if that sort of thing had been part of the program. Fortunately, my teacher is a devout Christian and has his head screwed on straight. His teacher says "The truth is hard enough. Don't give them b*******."

Are there spiritual aspects in good Silat? It depends on what you mean. The deeper you get into it the more you have to calm your mind and purify your heart. To really make any progress you have to put aside your ego and do something that sounds suspiciously like surrendering to that which is greater than the chattering monkey inside your head. As my teacher says "I can't give you Silat. All I can do is teach you to accept it."

[Orang Jawa]

I'm agree with you Todd in general, however, allow me to explain something that may be what Shax fail to explain...or may be not :)
In the old days, the majority of silat elders are muslim and most of them is Kiai (we called devoted muslim that have been in Mecca for Haj), therefore, many used the silat it self as a vehicles to spread the muslim through out the area/region. As a matter of fact, many old silat system have an oath that all student must belief in Dua Kali mashahadapt (sp?) and to used the silat to help spread the Islam.

Now some of the old silat system mixed the islamic faith and the ritual/cultural habit. This is becoming confusing to some foreginer, even myself. Some of them can recite the Kur'an and used the prayer for speed, power, ilmu kebal, becomes invicible, etc. Many Indonesian Muslim scholars split on this issues: The traditional muslim are prohibited to do this kind of things. And the other, mostly in the villages and remote areas most silat players are still did this things.

Now days, religion is not the issue of learning silat. Some is still holding their old traditional belief and some is more progressive and compassionate.

Pak Lek never make a big deal about Silat, "Its only ilmu gerak badan." he said.
I hope this will clear the mass confusion OR makes muddier :)
Tristan

[Bobster]

there was a Pakistani guy named Khalid Khan. He did Serrada and some kind of Pencak Silat. Over a few years he got stranger and stranger.
AAAAAGGHHHHH!! I remember Khalid!!! Hey, were you around when he advertised he was "Looking for a woman to marry him & learn the ancient art of Serrada"?!?

Poor guy was the butt of more jokes than Ashida Kim...It takes some doing, but he was.

[tellner]

Tristan: Thanks for the clarification. It gets confusing sometimes. I was always taught that if the Almighty wanted a miracle it was going to happen and I didn't get a vote. Saying "If I do this He has to do that" was trying to be more powerful than G-d. It's probably a Jewish thing which makes it hard to look at the world in other ways.

Bobbe: Damn it! Now you've made me remember that part. And the "Silat for the homeless and the insane" and the prayers he said to Muslim Djinn (not Jewish or Christian Djinn, just Muslim ones), and the Death Spots and the picture of "Hot Babes with Big Sticks" ... and ... and ...

Definitely a few stick short of a full order of satay.

[Kertas]

ok.jin is a creation of God just like animals man and angels.they existed before man and satan is jin.they are created from fire.not only do silat people use their services but also fortune tellers and healers. in islam it is not permissible to invoke jin in these cases unless for valid reason. some silat use this power and kung fu as well. warning: do not attempt to experiment

[CQC]

Spiritual approach in Silat ranges from instilling good (religious) values to their students to rubbing the lamps and asking the favors.

Speaking of Djin/Jin, this reminds me of a saying, "The nicest Djin are equal to the baddest man"

[Narrue]

“If you wanna kiss the sky Better learn how to kneel” U2, Mysterious ways ;)

[Wolf]

Mate if you are rubbing 'laps' you've walked into the wrong club, or strayed into Northern Scandinavia :D

WOW! Talk about a Freudian slip! obviously mean lamps :D

[alex0000]

'a 'djinn' is an elemantal spirit/force that some silat people 'invoke' and attain temporary abilities, such as increased speed, strength, etc...'

far enough... but is it true do they exist, does it give people temporary abilities or is it all myths.. has anyone witnessed such things??

[IndraMuda]

" The best of jinn is equivalent to the fasik (godless, sinful) of mankind "

[IndraMuda]

Are pesilats, or guru-guru silat, who seeked jinn as their wali never learn a lesson! IF, Iblis/jinn refused to prostrate to Prophet Adam as, by Allah’s SWT instruction (The Lord of Alamin [ Heaven, Earth and Anything in between]), what sureties that jinns will serve and keep their words to the “offspring of Adam” or mankind?

IT IS AN INVITATION TO HELL!

We seek Allah SWT as our Wali!

[Orang Jawa]

Are pesilats, or guru-guru silat, who seeked jinn as their wali never learn a lesson! IF, Iblis/jinn refused to prostrate to Prophet Adam as, by Allah’s SWT instruction (The Lord of Alamin [ Heaven, Earth and Anything in between]), what sureties that jinns will serve and keep their words to the “offspring of Adam” or mankind?

IT IS AN INVITATION TO HELL!

We seek Allah SWT as our Wali!

IMHO, we should say: We seek God as our Wali :)
We respect and love one another in deed and trust!
Its all about choices, the truth shall set you free.
Tristan

[Wali]

IMHO, we should say: We seek God as our Wali :)

I'm flattered!! :p

[IndraMuda]

Hi Wali, how are you!

Shahih Muslim, H2169, P1170
Aishah narrated that the Messenger of Allah SWT said: “The Angels were created from Light and the Jinn from a Smokeless flame of fire and Adam was created from What Allah explained (ie, from sounding clay like the Clay of pottery).” (Bukhari 4871)
Ar-Rahman (The Most Gracious) 55:15

[IndraMuda]

THE ENMITY (PERMUSUHAN) BETWEEN MAN AND THE SETAN/JINN

Briefly, the enmity between man and the Setan is deeply rooted its origin goes back to the day Allah formed Adam, before He breathed the soul into him. When Allah breathed the soul into Adam, and commanded the angels to prostrate to Adam. Iblisjinn used to worship Allah with the Angels of heaven so he was included in the command. But he thought highly of himself and was arrogant so he refused to prostrate to Adam:

Al-Araf (The Heights [or The Wall with Elevations]) 7:12, 14-17

(Allah) said: “What prevented you (O Iblis) that you did not prostrate yourself when I commanded you?” Iblis said: “I am better than him (Adam). You created me from fire, and him you created from clay.” (12)

(Iblis) said: “Allow me respite till the Day they are raised up (i.e the Day of Resurrection).” (14)

(Allah) said: “You are of those respited.” (15)

(Iblis) said: “Because You have sent me astray, surely, I will lie in wait against them (human beings) on Your straight Path.” (16)

“Then I will come to them from before them and behind them, from their right and from their left, and You will not find most of them as thankful ones (i.e they will not be dutiful to You).” (17)

This is a metaphor for his insinuating whispers (waswaas) to them, and his encouraging them to do well as much as he can, as Allah said:

Al-Isra (The Journey by Night) 17:64

“And befoot them gradually those whom you can among them with your voice (i.e songs, music, and any other call for Allah’s disobedience), make assaults on them with your cavalry and your infantry, share with them wealth and children (by tempting them to earn money by by illegal way usury, or by committing illegal sexual intercourse), and make promises to them” But Satan promises them nothing but deceit.

Fatir (The Originator or Creation, or The Angels) 35:6

Surely, Satan is an enemy to you, so take (treat) him as an enemy. He only invites his Hizb (followers) that they may become the dwellers of the blazing Fire.

An Nisa (The Women) 4:119

Verily, I will mislead them, and surely I will order them desires, and certainly, I will order them to slit the ears of cattle, and indeed I will order them to change the nature created by Allah.” And whoever takes Satan as a Wali (protector or helper) instead of Allah, has suffered a manifest loss.

Al-Isra (The Journey by Night) 17:62

(Iblis (Satan)) said: “See this one whom You have honoured above me, if you give me respite (keep me alive) to the Day od Resurrection I will surely seize and mislead his offspring (by sending them astray) all but a few.”

[Bobster]

Are pesilats, or guru-guru silat, who seeked jinn as their wali never learn a lesson!

We seek Allah SWT as our Wali!

IMHO, we should say: We seek God as our Wali

Well, I hope you find him. I do not believe in Djinn, Shaitan, Setan, Allah, God, call it what you will. Neither has ever made themselves apparent to me. Monotheistic religion has never really brought out the best in humankind, and excepting personal belief or disbelief has nothing to do with Pencak Silat. I believe in what I can see, touch, smell, hear or taste. If it is organic, then it bleeds, period. You can pray all you want, it won't stay my hand if you are facing me. I have heard all kinds of things from people who swore they were protected by prayer, chanting, Koran, Bible, amulets, whatever. They bleed like everyone else.

[tellner]

Fair enough, Bobbe. You may have to stick the truly fanatical ones a few more times than you would most people. Someone who really doesn't care what happens to him as long as he kills - scratch that, "wants nothing more than to die killing" - you is a really frightening guy. It doesn't matter what he believes in. He'll keep coming after a sane person would say "This just isn't fun any longer. I think I'll cut my losses and go."

[Bobster]

Oh Todd, by the way, I got your check...I'll keep my eyes peeled in Bandung!

...Which may be hard to see if I do that, so I'll just keep them open instead!

[tellner]

Cool. Just remember, that's two girls. They have to have all their teeth, know how to cook and live far enough out in the forest that I can hide when Tiel comes after me with the parang.

[Bobster]

Todd, I'm sorry, but I'm gonna need some personal guarantees here that Tiel is coming after YOU instead of ME. At mnimum, I'll need to be assured that she's at least going to START with you, and give me enough of a head start to disappear back into Indonesia. For life.

If you can give me your word that you die first, I'll bring back a couple of Indo chicas for you. And I'll make sure they can cook a delicious rendang with nasi goreng and bandrek.

...Because I want you last meal to be special for you!!

[IndraMuda]

AL-FURQAN 25:29
“He indeed led me astray from the Reminder (this Quran) after it had come to me. And Setan is to man ever a deserter in the hour of need”

[Orang Jawa]

AL-FURQAN 25:29
“He indeed led me astray from the Reminder (this Quran) after it had come to me. And Setan is to man ever a deserter in the hour of need”

Salam Indra Muda,
I do appreciate your Quotations, however, this is not the place for that. We have to respect other persilat who happen to be a Jew, Christian, Budda, or Hindu. It seemed unfair for them to keep telling them about the Holly Quran. Unless you are willing to give them also a qoute from the Holly Bible, Taurah, etc. FYI, I am a Muslim and coming from a very religious background family. All my family have been to Mecca. Some of them several times.
Don't mean to offends you, but I would love to discuss silat not a religion on this forum.
Thanks,
Tristan

[IndraMuda]

Just to share the facts from islamic perspective

Waalaikum Mussalam Waramatullahi Wabarakatuh and Assalaamualaikum to you Orang Jawa!

Alhamdulillah, I am happy for your family and you that Allah SWT has blessed His Rahmat. All of you must be amongth the selected few of muslims/mukmin being Grace with several invitations as His special Guest in the Holy Land. Hopefully Allah SWT will bless the same to my family and me, insya’Allah!

Back to the posting/s, I apologise to all, IF, I have not being fair with my thoughts. I can only share my personal silat and spiritual knowledge in regards to the subject matter, “Jinn and Spiritual Silat”. It is to my opinion that there is no better source to share the knowledge of “Jinn and Spiritual matters” besides referring to the Holly Book and, in my case, it is The Holly Al-Quran (Covering: Injil, Zabur, Taurat and Qusus (Prophets Musa and Ibrahim) according to my Islamic Faith) rather than just mere speculation of thoughts. To believe or not to believe is everybody’s freedom of choice and level of intellectualities (Hukum Aqal): Intellectual necessity (Wajib), Impossibility (Mustahil) and Possibility (Harus/Jaiz).

Yes, I humbly admit that there are countless faiths and definitions of silat out there. Thus, they are free to express, manifest or share their views. “I cannot put words in the mouth.” I don’t know about the rest, but personally, I respect their views and will take it as knowledge and awareness.

Hope this will clear the air!

Regards to All!

[realitychecker]

The prayers of my family go out to the people effected by today's Yogyakarta earthquake. For those who haven't heard yet, it was 6.5, and so far 2500 have been found perished. May God have mercy on the injured, dying, and departed. If anyone finds a legitamate fund, I'd like to contribute.
God Bless...

[Orang Jawa]

The prayers of my family go out to the people effected by today's Yogyakarta earthquake. For those who haven't heard yet, it was 6.5, and so far 2500 have been found perished. May God have mercy on the injured, dying, and departed. If anyone finds a legitamate fund, I'd like to contribute.
God Bless...

Amen brother, Amin saudara/saudari.
I spoke to my brother in Jakarta last night, the Indonesian Ministry of information said, it could be as high as 4500 people perished on that earthquake.
John, you may contact the Redcross. They have a special fund for this disaster.
God Bless and Rest In Peace
Tristan

[IndraMuda]

Every human has a partner Jinn

Hadith - Sahih Muslim 6757, Narrated Abdullah ibn Mas'ud, similar narration 6759 by 'Aisha, r.a.
Allah's Apostle [PBUH] said: There is none amongst you with whom is not an attached from amongst the jinn (devil). They (the Companions) said: Allah's Apostle [PBUH] with you too? Thereupon he said: Yes, but Allah helps me against him and so I am safe from his hand and he does not command me but for good.

No one was born without being Poked by Satan

Abu Hurairah narrated that the Messenger of Allah SAW said:
“No one was born without being Poked by Satan and he cries except
Ibn Maryam (Isa) and his mother.”

Abu Hurairah added: Read if you want:
“and I seek refuge for her and for her Offspring with You against the outcast
Satan.” Al-Imran 3:36

[Orang Jawa]

Every human has a partner Jinn

Hadith - Sahih Muslim 6757, Narrated Abdullah ibn Mas'ud, similar narration 6759 by 'Aisha, r.a.
Allah's Apostle [PBUH] said: There is none amongst you with whom is not an attached from amongst the jinn (devil). They (the Companions) said: Allah's Apostle [PBUH] with you too? Thereupon he said: Yes, but Allah helps me against him and so I am safe from his hand and he does not command me but for good.

No one was born without being Poked by Satan

Abu Hurairah narrated that the Messenger of Allah SAW said:
“No one was born without being Poked by Satan and he cries except
Ibn Maryam (Isa) and his mother.”

Abu Hurairah added: Read if you want:
“and I seek refuge for her and for her Offspring with You against the outcast
Satan.” Al-Imran 3:36

It seemed you are into Jin and Satan...Interesting.
Reality Checker send his prayers and condolonces to the People in Jogyakarta, Indonesia. And your response to his post is ??????
Can we at least take a deep abreath for a while and offer some prayers to the death and the injured?
Call Red Cross or Indonesian Embassy and please give donation to the needy.
Right now I don't give you know what about jin.
Peace and Be well,
Tristan

[IndraMuda]

Assalaamualaikum Orang Jawa,

Just to let you know:

a- Malaysia is a neighbor country to Indonesia. We Malaysian are aware, equally concerned, and shared the sadness with what has happened. However, we too accept that what has happened is an Act of Allah SWT. Every Malaysian have contributed to your beloved country and our brothers much earlier and even right this moment working very hard to gather all our resources to continuously extend our humble assistant (Past, present and future). We are always ready to help!

b- Back to the posting, I leave it to your maturity and knowledge to make judgement. You are free to conclude anything. I believe you are a repectable participant in this very forum community.

[Orang Jawa]

[QUOTE=IndraMuda]Assalaamualaikum Orang Jawa,
Walaikum salam Indra Muda.

Just to let you know:

a- Malaysia is a neighbor country to Indonesia. We Malaysian are aware, equally concerned, and shared the sadness with what has happened. However, we too accept that what has happened is an Act of Allah SWT. Every Malaysian have contributed to your beloved country and our brothers much earlier and even right this moment working very hard to gather all our resources to continuously extend our humble assistant (Past, present and future). We are always ready to help!

That's good to hear.
One thing that I'm proud to be an American, eventhough the religion is predominantly Christian, the Government and the American People are the first one to response to any global tragedy.
Now as a person, we cannot used that as a blanket statement or an excuses not to give or donate something for the needy. So be generous and be a good muslim!!!!!!
Since you are quoting alots from Quran about jin or satan. Why don't you find a quote from Quran that encourage a Muslim to donate their time and money, or else to help the people in tragedy?
Tristan

[IndraMuda]

Iblis has his throne in the sea:

Iblis has his throne in the sea, and he sends out his dispatchment who aggravate people. The greatest of them before him is the one who has caused the most fitnah. One of his workers comes and tells him, "I did not leave [my victim] until I brought about separation between him and his wife." Iblees draws him near, and says to him, "Yes! You (are the best!)"
(Related by Muslim.)

Dari Jabir ra katanya dia mendengar Rasulullah saw bersabda: “Singgahsana
Iblis berada di lautan. Dari sana dia mengirim Pasukannya untuk membuat fitnah (mengacau Atau membencanai) umat manusia. Maka Siapa yang lebih besar jasanya (terhormat) Di kalangan mereka.Hadith 2408 SM

[Wali]

IndraMuda,

With all due respects... What are you trying to set accross?

This is a silat forum.

Cheers,
Wali

[jameskorst]

salams..

my prayer 4 ppl that affected by recent eartquake in indonesia.. God bless them all...

back to the topic..

recently i reread my Seni Beladiri Mags, n ive found an interesting article.. an interview with mar willey.. yup, that wing chun guy from uk.. his encounter with Guru Utama Silat Kegayungan Acheh Helang Putih, an eagle form of silat.. interesting indeed.. in that article, mark willey shared his experience witnessing this guru transformed into an white eagle.. in trance i think.. ;p so, is there any explanation on this guy? i mean, is anydjinnie stuff or extraterrestial thing or it just the devotion of that guru that transform him into that stguys

guys, any idea?

[jameskorst]

salams..

just shocked this forum turn into pendidikan agama islam class.. IMHO, its okay to say islamic perspective of silat as it may related to this topic, but to quote a large sum of koran is totally unsensitive(sorry if its wrong).. silat is 4 all, regardless race, skin color, n religion.. except kebatinan of coz.. so, Indra, discuss the thread aite.. u kinda like preaching to others.. show some respect to others, plz..

in fact, if im not mistaken, there is verse i koran stated that:
i worship not that which I worship.. and i will not worship that ye have been wont to worship.. nor u will ye worship that which i worship.. to you be your way, and to me mine.. 109:2-6

p/s: Indra is hindu god rite? n u say u r Indramuda or Young Indra(God)? saying u r young god is extremely not islamic.. what i know, islam forbid their followers from saying themself a God..

in a nut shell, i just want u 2 respect others, than other ppl respect u..

[IndraMuda]

Just to share the facts from islamic perspective

Wa’alaikum Mussalam Waramatullahi Wabarakatuh and Assalaamu’alaikum to you,


The thread is about “Jinn and spiritual silat” and, YES, the forum is Silat.

a- How could one fight or bersilat with an invisible entities without knowing the right attributes? Everything: heaven, earth and anything in between have names and attributes. Without those knowledge, how one going to recognize jinn and what appropriate weapon to use? A keris …… etc?

b- How do we know the existence of jinn in the first place? Of course, to the muslim, the source is Al-Quran and Sunnah, that is, The Creator’s (Allah SWT) Qalam?. For other religions, perhaps they have their own sources. Thus, they are free to share or otherwise their views, knowledge or sources.

c- Isn’t a pesilat/pendekar is known or required to be bijak, cerdas or panjang akal?

d- A practitioner of spiritual silat, particularly a muslim, must understand hukum aqal (intellectual) and syarak (religion). Pesilat from other faiths, perhaps they have their own religion rules.

e- Isn’t this forum requires sources of information to be acknowledged for any quotations? By doing so, should it be construed as “DISRESPECT” or, instead, being honest / truth?

Guess, I leave it to the forum or thread moderator to decide or to delete the whole postings.

Note: Indra/Indera/Deria = in malay it is known referred to the five senses.

:)

[Orang Jawa]

Sarge, you may have to get the twins out :)

[realitychecker]

Please take it over to the religous forum, man. Why here? Do you want people from other faiths to think some radical Muslim has now terrorized an internet martial arts forum? I don't preach about Jesus to you. I respect your faith and devotion to Islam, man. I think most of us do.
Lay it out about some kind of fight that you've been in (been in one lately?), or battle, or something that might 'enlighten' everyone to something having to do with SILAT and it's understandings. Tristan put it to you best, bra. Step back and look how you come across.
Take care,
JR
p.s. I am gaining understanding of my 'CENTER' more and more since I last talked about it. Very cool! Thanks again everyone!

[Orang Jawa]

salams..

my prayer 4 ppl that affected by recent eartquake in indonesia.. God bless them all...

back to the topic..

recently i reread my Seni Beladiri Mags, n ive found an interesting article.. an interview with mar willey.. yup, that wing chun guy from uk.. his encounter with Guru Utama Silat Kegayungan Acheh Helang Putih, an eagle form of silat.. interesting indeed.. in that article, mark willey shared his experience witnessing this guru transformed into an white eagle.. in trance i think.. ;p so, is there any explanation on this guy? i mean, is anydjinnie stuff or extraterrestial thing or it just the devotion of that guru that transform him into that stguys

guys, any idea?

With all do respect James, I believe it when I see it.
Educate me with the Aceh Elang Putih, I have never heard this siat system before.

In Indonesia they have a show called Kuda Kepang, where the player ride a make believe horse, dancing around and end up in trance and eating glass, and so on. This is a show case, there is no martial art value in it. I think?
If you can't defend yourself with what you have then its time for you to go back to drawing board. Silat is not a big deals, just another sport of gerak badan, many silat players like to mixed and added something, or supernatural things. For what? if I may ask. I believe they learn silat with the wrong reason.
And I could be wrong too,
Tristan

[IndraMuda]

Volume 4, Book 54, Number 522:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "When you hear the crowing of cocks, ask for Allah's Blessings for (their crowing indicates that) they have seen an angel. And when you hear the braying of donkeys, seek Refuge with Allah from Satan for (their braying indicates) that they have seen a Satan."

[Rebo Paing]

If a person is a spiritual person ... this does not necessarily equate to a person with a religion ... then the person in question is practising spiritual silat ... no?
For me, silat is an ilmu that fortifies the spirit and the body, and for me I find the answers to spirit in every day life and not necessarily from a book.
In that sense I am a spiritual person, I am a part of the universe - alam semesta, and when I play silat, I am celebrating my love for the all encompassing nature of the universe :Angel:

er ...... well, that's true some of the time anyway :rolleyes:

Salam

[sulaiman]

" The best of jinn is equivalent to the fasik (godless, sinful) of mankind "

Salaams all ,
Sorry to be a latecomer to this debate but my computer was eaten by crocodiles and I have a 3 day trek through mosquito infested hell to the nearest town , and you thought spain was all sangria and paella ¿

Sorry indramuda but your statement is wrong.
There are many types of jinn , like human beings some are following a right way , some a wrong way.
some are indeed fasik , and some are Muslim ,
Allah Almighty created the jinn and man to worship him - some obey others do not.
a little bit of history;
The jinn were created millenia before mankind , their father was named miraj and he was given a home on earth , where he started a family with his wife.
they were obedient servants of their lord almighty, including their son iblis, and it is related in tradition that there was not 1 spot on earth where Iblis had not made prostration to his lord.
The angels were amazed at this and asked their lord to lift him up to heaven so that he could teach them.

Then in his wisdom God created a deputy from clay and named him Adam ( peace be upon him ) and ordered all the inhabitants of heaven to bow to Adam - the angels immediately obeyed , but Iblis refused , seeing himself as a better creation than Adam , and was thus expelled from Heavens to earth where he bacame Shaytan the Accursed , and was given the unenviable job of being a test for the sons of Adam.

His descendents are called Shayateen and are very numerous and are the main " bad " jinn. They are not ALL the jinn but only a percentage.

IBLIS turned traitor on his Lord and that is why mendurhaka ( spelling ) is always mentioned in the Silat Melay bayat - it is the characteristic of shaytan and has no place in the adab of silat.

The negative effects of the Shaytan in their mission to destroy mankind is to create and spread doubt, hypocrisy, disobedience, pride, selfishness, greed , arrogance,covetousness, vanity, inflame anger and fanatisicm and our love of the world - sorry to say but they are doing a bang up job - may God protect us and deliver us.

Anyway , thats the downside - dont confuse shayateen with all jinn - most of them are just regular guys trying to get on with their daily lives , and to stay as far away from us as possible.



I have created jinns and men that they may worship me - Holy Quran Al Zaariyat 56

It has been revealed to me that a company of jinns listened to the Holy Quran.
They said " we have really heard a wonderful recital.
It gives guidance to the right and we have believed therein.
we shall not join( in worship ) any with our Lord.
Al Jinn ( 72 ) 1& 2


Footnote
Whilst I myself do not like cut and paste sections of quran being posted, or in IBA style monologues , I have to defend the right of this forum to cover ground usually thought of as being the domain of " Religion " .
You cannot discuss silat without discussing spirituality, faith, belief and self knowledge,
it would be like a food forum that only looked at the calorific and nutritional value of the food and forgot all about TASTE:::

Peace

sulaiman

[Wali]

Hi Sulaiman,

I have to respectufully disagree with you, and say that there is no such thing as a 'good jinn'.

Jinns always ask for something before offering their 'help'. This is usually some sort of blood sacrifice, as there is life in the blood.

I have seen the devastation that this causes, even when the people thought they were dealing with 'good' jinn.

My advice is to steer well clear.

Peace,
Wali

[Bobster]

Whilst I myself do not like cut and paste sections of quran being posted, or in IBA style monologues , I have to defend the right of this forum to cover ground usually thought of as being the domain of " Religion ".

You cannot discuss silat without discussing spirituality, faith, belief and self knowledge, it would be like a food forum that only looked at the calorific and nutritional value of the food and forgot all about TASTE:::


Hi Sulaiman, peace be upon you. With respect, I disagree with you: Perhaps a Malay or Indonesian cannot discuss Silat without also including spirituality, but I think that's cultural, not art-specific. Pencak Silat doesn't demand spirituality, but Islam does. There is plenty of Silat in America, and we can easily seperate what is religion and what is not. There is nothing in Silat that promotes a relationship with God unless you include it yourself (i.e. meditation, prayer, religious rituals). Now as far as religions go, Islam has a more demanding dictum than most others. Your belief is that all (human) actions come from God, and whatever happens is the will of God. So to you (and many of my own teachers) a Sapu or a Langkah isn't initiated by you, it's initiated by God.

We (America) don't see it that way, and clearly you can do Silat without being a spiritual person. I myself am a nonbeliever, but if I may humbly add, I am known for my Silat, even in Indonesia. I just returned from Bandung last month, and the people in the village we trained at, as well as Cimande Tarik Kolot, not only remembered me from my previous visits but remembered my abilities as well. This is not to brag or anything, just to say that you see it as a spiritual aspect...But you (as a muslim) see EVERYTHING as a spiritual aspect! To the western mind, the spiritual and the sensual are often seperated by thought and free will.

And I do not see Pencak Silat as solely a Malay or Indonesian art! It is merely practiced by people who are primarily Muslims...But this is the law of the minimum! If your COUNTRY is 90% Muslim, then your ART has a high probability of being practiced mostly by Muslims, that's just common sense. But it DOESN'T make it a Muslim martial art! You didn't bring up this point personally, by the way, but I see it in almost every discussion about Silat that turns religious so I thought I would bring it out in the open.

Quoted from Indra Muda:

a- How could one fight or bersilat with an invisible entities without knowing the right attributes? Everything: heaven, earth and anything in between have names and attributes. Without those knowledge, how one going to recognize jinn and what appropriate weapon to use? A keris …… etc?

INVISIBLE ENTITIES??!? You will have to show me, I have never even seen one, let alone had to FIGHT one! I'm sorry, but I am from a very different school: If I can touch it & it breathes, I can kill it. If you cannot see it, don't worry about it. Oh, it may be there, but I have yet to feel an attack (or anything) from it!


c- Isn’t a pesilat/pendekar is known or required to be bijak, cerdas or panjang akal?

If you are going for a ranking in Islam maybe, not in Silat. Also, that's cultural to the Nusantara, not Silat in general.

d- A practitioner of spiritual silat, particularly a muslim, must understand hukum aqal (intellectual) and syarak (religion). Pesilat from other faiths, perhaps they have their own religion rules.

Aha, a practitioner of SPIRITUAL Silat! Well, once again, you will have to show me. I have a LOW opinion of Nampun & other Ulin who claim trances, spirituality & oogah-boogah to accomplish what strong basic Silat teaches. Last month a man offered to show me Pamacan Silat, where you go into a trance to become a tiger, and nothing can hurt you. He claimed he could be stabbed and it wouldn't hurt. I said "Fine, I'll pay to see that, but only on one condition: I GET TO STAB YOU MYSELF!" The "pendekar" saw the look in my eyes and declined & didn't want to do the trance for fear of me. And believe me, I WOULD have stabbed him!

From Tristan Sutrisno:

If you can't defend yourself with what you have then its time for you to go back to drawing board. Silat is not a big deals, just another sport of gerak badan, many silat players like to mixed and added something, or supernatural things. For what? if I may ask. I believe they learn silat with the wrong reason.

Yes, that's how I see it. Not the "sport" part in my opinion, but certianly everything else. The influences from other cultures in Silat (and the Nusantara itself) can be clearly seen: Language, food, dress, religion and martial arts are all products of foreign imports transplanted into the Nusantara, and then mixed with the native beliefs.

Religion is a part of our daily lives here in America just as it is for you in M'asia. But it's not as ingrained at the minutae as it is to you. And if you think it's impossible to do Silat without being spiritual, how do you explain me?


Wondering why I'm getting involved with this again,

[Rebo Paing]

I think the last few posts state all our cases, both for the Muslim camp and the non Muslim camp.

Thank-you brothers Suleiman, Wali, Orang Jawa & Bobster ... and Bobster, I completely agree about the 90% bit ... silat was around IMO long before the Wali Songo began their mission of Islamisasi of the archipelago ... but the 90% figure (Musllim population) means that a lot of silat was also influenced by Islam.

Interesting thing though history :cool: ... Sunan Bonang (Bon Ang) was probably Chinese , and I think the Chinese influence in Indonesia (and Malaysia) is waaaay under-rated. Swept under the carpet so to speak ... so effectively that most of the population do not even consider its influence ... on many cultural aspects.

Salam

[London]

Assalaamu'Alaaykum

I have to respectufully disagree with you, and say that there is no such thing as a 'good jinn'.

Well this is incorrect statement, there are good jinns as the Qur'aan affirms this:

Say (O Muhammad ): "It has been revealed to me that a group (from three to ten in number) of jinns listened (to this Qur'ân). They said: 'Verily! We have heard a wonderful Recital (this Qur'ân)!

These Jinns became Muslims, and if one reads the books on Jinns such as An Essay on the Jinn by Abu Ameenaah Bilal Philips will give the reader more information on types and aims etc of the jinns.

http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=2340&dgn=4


And of course, its all the evil jinns who require you to commit kufr (disbelief), as the good Muslim Jinns, doesn't interfere with us.

Wa'alaaykum'salaam.

[Sgt_Major]

Just keep the discussion to Jinn, Djin, or whatever other name for the same entities...

I'm happy enough to allow some religious discussion, IF it is RELEVANT to the discussion at hand.

[Wali]

Assalaamu'Alaaykum

Well this is incorrect statement, there are good jinns as the Qur'aan affirms this:

Say (O Muhammad ): "It has been revealed to me that a group (from three to ten in number) of jinns listened (to this Qur'ân). They said: 'Verily! We have heard a wonderful Recital (this Qur'ân)!

These Jinns became Muslims, and if one reads the books on Jinns such as An Essay on the Jinn by Abu Ameenaah Bilal Philips will give the reader more information on types and aims etc of the jinns.

http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=2340&dgn=4


And of course, its all the evil jinns who require you to commit kufr (disbelief), as the good Muslim Jinns, doesn't interfere with us.

Wa'alaaykum'salaam.
Well maybe based on what you have been taught, as oppossed to what you have personally experienced. This is the difference here.

I am pulling out of this thread, as the moment the Bible, Quran, etc... get mentioned, we start to pull away from silat, and things can get "sticky".

My advice remains to steer well clear. People have the free will to do as they choose, so it's ultimately up to the individual.

Regards,
Wali

[Kiai Carita]

I think the last few posts state all our cases, both for the Muslim camp and the non Muslim camp.

Thank-you brothers Suleiman, Wali, Orang Jawa & Bobster ... and Bobster, I completely agree about the 90% bit ... silat was around IMO long before the Wali Songo began their mission of Islamisasi of the archipelago ... but the 90% figure (Musllim population) means that a lot of silat was also influenced by Islam.

Interesting thing though history :cool: ... Sunan Bonang (Bon Ang) was probably Chinese , and I think the Chinese influence in Indonesia (and Malaysia) is waaaay under-rated. Swept under the carpet so to speak ... so effectively that most of the population do not even consider its influence ... on many cultural aspects.

Salam

Salam silat everyone,

If you talk about Jinn, then you are using an Islamic category and the Islamic perspective, in my experience and knowledge is what Bro Sulaiman wrote. There are good Jinn - will the good Jinn be slaves to Man? NO! The good Jinn, like the good Man, are slaves only to Allah.

I met Steve Benitez after he came back from a long fast in Cimande land and he had experienced people politiking and fighting through Jinn. He told me that all Jinn are bad but in my opinion, he just meant to say that all the Jinn he had contact with were bad. The Qur'an -source of Jinn knowledge for Man, states there are good Jinn. I believe the Qur'an more than Steve Benitez.

As for silat being around before Walisongo, yes of course. The oldest written mention is in Kidung Sundayana, in the story of the Pajajaran king and Princess going to Majapahit to marry Hayam Wuruk. Sadly there were protocol misunderstandings resluting in the killing of all the Sunda entourage, including the suicide of Dyah Pitaloka the Princess who was to marry hayam Wuruk, king of Majapahit. The Sunda entourage had all sort of different ulin / silat to show but they were no match for the elephant coloumns from Tuban.

Not all the 9 Wali in the Walisongo practised silat either, neither were they a single united entity. However if you go to the Kraton Kasepuhan in Cirebon you will see all sorts of debus equipment which clearly shows that the Islamization of Jawa did involve silat and more spesifically debus. There are many secrets in the universe of energy and if Bobster doesn't have respect for Uwa Nampon I feel that reflects more on Bobster's own arrogance and has nothing to do with the quality of Uwa Nampon's play. Please refrain from slagging of what you don't understand.

Chinese influence in Indonesia is rather well documented and researched. What is completely lacking is written documents of Indonesia's influence on China!

Warm salaams to all...

KC.

[Bobster]

There are many secrets in the universe of energy and if Bobster doesn't have respect for Uwa Nampon I feel that reflects more on Bobster's own arrogance and has nothing to do with the quality of Uwa Nampon's play. Please refrain from slagging of what you don't understand.

Hi Kiai, thanks for the response.

I honestly don't think it's arrogance, I have given Ulin Nampon (and for that matter SEVERAL styles of Silat Debus) a chance, and it always comes back to the same thing: If you can't make it work, I won't pretend. There is nothing wrong with the PRACTICE of it per se, and I actually enjoyed the Jurus & Jurus Kombanisi of Ulin Nampon. But I have met four pendekars of the style, and although they could make it work on thier own students, they could not make it work on me. That's not arrogance, that's just the truth. They tried and tried, and only when they actually HIT me with thier fist did they get a result. I was very respectful to them, and thanked them for thier time, but they did not convince me of the usefulness of Silat Debus. So, this is where my low opinion of Nampon comes from. If you have seen different, I congratulate you.

[Gajah Silat]

So, if I for arguements sake believe that jinn do exist, how would you distinguish between Jinn Islam and Jin kaffir?

However, at the risk of prolonging this whole jinn thread I will try to view this anthropologically :) Please don't get all offended & hot and bothered :)

So, in a very small nutshell....Jinn were created from fire way before Adam. They occupy the 'space' between humans and angels. Mohammed (peace be upon him) was sent to convert not only man but jinn also. There are consequently both good & bad jinn (Jinn Islam & Jinn Kaffir).

That is probably a very simplistic take on things, but for the sake of discussion...

I would again merely view this as religious syncretism. The jinn are pre-Islamic and remenants of animist belief. This is a functional way to make religious conversion more accesible. Smooths the road between belief systems as it were.

So, at the risk of offending any fundamentalist beliefs, this is a common trait when animist beliefs become monothiestic. It is surely more allegory & metaphor representing the change of belief system.

Many of what are now known as jinn in Indonesia were certainly part of the belief system before the arrival of Islam.

So, I'll await the backlash.

[Wali]

Why is it that Jinn stories are always inevitably bad. I have yet to hear stories of Jinn helping out, or benefiting anyone. They are always stories of them demonising, terrorising and otherwise causing distress.

[Gajah Silat]

How else to gain an advantage over your enemies without actually physicaly killing them? ;)

There is much tukan sihir(kinda black magic) in Indonesia if you want something sorted out...ah, my last boss springs to mind :yeleyes:

This inevitably permeates Silat.

I think sometimes non-muslims have a very difficult time understanding an Islamic perspective.

The simple fact is jinn play a part in Al Qu'ran, so to question their existance is to question the truth of Al Qu'ran. This is why it's a subject likely to cause offence.

Kinda like going to a Catholic Mass and proclaiming Mary was obviously not a virgin :eek:

Sometimes I take a purely functional view of religion, but this in no way reflects my respect of others beliefs.

By the way this thread has just caused a minor domestic :rolleyes: My wife is going to prove some of these things to me next time we're in Indonesia:confused:

[Kiai Carita]

Why is it that Jinn stories are always inevitably bad. I have yet to hear stories of Jinn helping out, or benefiting anyone. They are always stories of them demonising, terrorising and otherwise causing distress.

Warm salaams everyone,

Wali, I am sure you know of the folk-tale Al'a Dien and his magic lamp? The most famous worldwide Holywood approved Jinn story is about a nice Jinn. What happens in the 'world' of Jinn and Indonesian (silat) communities is that usually the Jinn's activoties reflect the fights and feuds that are present underneath the surface of the smiling people. Not nice stuff, not nice Jinns.

Gajah, like the idea of Allah, the Ka'bah, the Hajj, fasting, ruku, sujud, du'a ... many things in Islam are pre-Islam, in fact, according to Muhammad s.a.w the Prophets before him were also all Islam. The one true belief followed by Adam, Noah, Solomon, David, Jesus and all other prophets minor or major is generically called Islam, in Islamic traditions. Some scholars of the Liberal camp in Islam believe that people like Buddha and belief systems that are wholistic and contain understanding and compasion for the universe, like Hinduism, Daoism, are also generally speaking, Islam.

Bobbe, if it is not arrogance then all is cool. I have heard (an experienced) that in many of the Margaluyu derived tenaga dalam schools, and also in Nampon, the long-distance hitting can only work when the partner is emotionally intent on attacking, and doesn't work in training scenarios unless the partner has trained to act emotional.

To praise Ulin Nampon let's remember that Soekarno practised Ulin Nampon while in Bandung and later as President he survived several assassination attempts. One, the famous Cikini bomb, blew up right beside him, and he remained unscathed. I also heard that an Ulin Nampon player was also unscathed by the 7/7 extremist bomb on the No 30 London Bus in Russel Square a year today. Bobbe if your silat can help you survive standing beside a blowing up bomb or a hand-grenade then it must be as good as Ulin Nampon.

Bobbe, I too have tried having tenaga-dalam students attack me from affar - like they do in their training amongst themselves- and like you, nothing happens. It is because I am not really emotionally charged with intent to harm them, they say, and I believe them because they are trustworthy people who say this. That is why most of these schools advise against sparring with the general public as in a friendly sparring bout the ilmu doesn't work. This is actually the criticism that many silat schools offer to the tenaga dalam schools. Not everyday you are going to be attacked by an emotional assailant.

Warm salaams to all...
Bram.

[Narrue]

Within nature there are unseen intelligences which are good, bad and neutral. Personally I do think it is wrong to say all unseen intelligent beings within nature are bad or evil.
By sacrificing blood unseen beings of a bad nature will most certainly be attracted by it.
The smell of the dung heap attracts fly’s and the sent of a rose attracts bees and butterflys, no different in the unseen world.

[Orang Jawa]

Warm salaams everyone,
Bobbe, if it is not arrogance then all is cool. I have heard (an experienced) that in many of the Margaluyu derived tenaga dalam schools, and also in Nampon, the long-distance hitting can only work when the partner is emotionally intent on attacking, and doesn't work in training scenarios unless the partner has trained to act emotional.

Forgive me for not believing in tenaga dalam or ilmu kebal, I heard a lots about it. I have not seen a master of tenaga dalam fight. The gimicks and the stories tales are some time convincing. But as for me, I do believe it when I see it. I want to see some of this people fight in the ring with a good boxer, I do believe a good boxer will intent to attack you in the ring:)
Are you not wonder why none of the boxer champion from Asia? If their teacher can teach them how to knock out some one with merely a touch? Why not be rich and famous?


To praise Ulin Nampon let's remember that Soekarno practised Ulin Nampon while in Bandung and later as President he survived several assassination attempts. One, the famous Cikini bomb, blew up right beside him, and he remained unscathed. I also heard that an Ulin Nampon player was also unscathed by the 7/7 extremist bomb on the No 30 London Bus in Russel Square a year today. Bobbe if your silat can help you survive standing beside a blowing up bomb or a hand-grenade then it must be as good as Ulin Nampon.

I can't agree with the above statement. People believe what they want to believe. If you have been survived in several situations that can cost your life. You can believe God/Buddha/Yaweh/Allah save's you or just a luck but tenaga dalam? Naah. Hitler survived the assassinantion too, does Hitler practise tenaga dalam? My best friend got hit in the head by NVA's Sniper, I was next to him, shoulder to shoulder, Am I tenaga dalam student? Not.
I've been extracted from hot LZ by Mc Guirer Rig (200 ft rope) from helicopter while the NVA's bullet passing me by, am I doing tenaga dalam? not! I am a lone survivor from an enemy ambush in Ashau Valley. 5 of my teammate went to Valhalla because of it, am I possesed tenaga dalam? Not by far! So what I have? May be it was not my time? May be God want me to live longer so I can balance my sin and my good deeds :) May be it was my luck, I can accepted all of this but not tenaga dalam.

Bobbe, I too have tried having tenaga-dalam students attack me from affar - like they do in their training amongst themselves- and like you, nothing happens. It is because I am not really emotionally charged with intent to harm them, they say, and I believe them because they are trustworthy people who say this. That is why most of these schools advise against sparring with the general public as in a friendly sparring bout the ilmu doesn't work. This is actually the criticism that many silat schools offer to the tenaga dalam schools. Not everyday you are going to be attacked by an emotional assailant.

Sorry Bram, I don't buy that story, with all do respect.
My uncle was a ritired high ranking officer in RPKAD, I remember he told me a story after the failed Communist Coup de ta. (G30S) A company size of commandos went to a village in the Middle of Java that suspected harboring the member of PKI (commusnist party members). Through a loud speakers he informed everyone to drop their weapons and surrender. Suddenly he saw three guys with machetes charging toward them, sadly they was gun down before they even get close to the commandos. Later he found out that the attackers was a student of some one who claimed they become invicible after rituals etc. etc. And the teacher was surrendered without a fight.
My Uncle and I could be wrong too,
Warm salam,
Tristan

[Kiai Carita]

Forgive me for not believing in tenaga dalam or ilmu kebal, I heard a lots about it. I have not seen a master of tenaga dalam fight. The gimicks and the stories tales are some time convincing. But as for me, I do believe it when I see it. I want to see some of this people fight in the ring with a good boxer, I do believe a good boxer will intent to attack you in the ring:)
Are you not wonder why none of the boxer champion from Asia? If their teacher can teach them how to knock out some one with merely a touch? Why not be rich and famous?

Salam Mas Tristan,

Why no Indonesian boxing champion? (Why no Indonesian anything champion would be more like it - huh?) I don't know... maybe, the tradition here is that you don't want to fight. Belajar silat bukan untuk jadi jago, the Betawi people say (learning silat is not to become a champion). Just getting pesilats to compete has been a historic hurdle for IPSI... but tenaga dalam demonstrations are everywhere even on the net. The oral accounts are even more way out - as you must know. But again, in the Margaluyu traditions the attacker must not only be intent, but also emotionally charged. A proffessional ring-fighter would not be emotionally charged, rather she would be cool and collected, no?

Merpati Putih students learn how to drive cars and motorbikes with their eyes blindfolded I have seen them many times do this. Pagar Nusa girls climb up ladders of sharp golok. Gus Maksum (alm) from pesantren Lirboyo Kediri did become famous because in the late 1960's when men were banned from having long hair, when the military came to cut his hair the scissors could not cut through instead they made sparks! And from the ring: Silat world champion and researcher O'ong Maryono also tells the story how he learned ilmu kebal, and used it. In this forum, Sulaiman of Gayong Espana has experienced and written about his experience 'mandi minyak' -bathing in boiling oil, demonstrating his school's version of tenaga dalam.

Mas Tristan, from your stories of real war survival I believe you possess tenaga dalam. I think that for once you are wrong when you claim not to. But then, on the other hand it is the adab and sopan-santun in silat to always speak low of oneself (merendah) isn't it? Listening to Hitler speak I believe he also possessed tenaga dalam - in Jawa the ilmu is called Gelap Ngampar. Soekarno, who once admited to learning public speaking from Hitler, managed to unite a country and proclaim Independence on August 17 1945 without a single drop of blood spilt (never happened before in History, I think) ... that, IMO is also tenaga dalam.

Maybe many tenaga dalam masters are already experiencing being rich, even though it is sugih tanpa banda (wealthy without riches). At any rate they are rich, culturally. Financial wealth is only attractive to many, not to all. In Indonesia, most silat schools at some stage practise tenaga dalam and recently (since mid 1980's) some have specialized in tenaga dalam only. They have big schools and are all over the world. All of them could be quacks and illussionists but I don't think so.

Warm salaams to all,
Bram.

[Orang Jawa]

Assalamualikum Bram,
As you know, I grew up in Indonesia, eventhough I had spend my adulthood in the USA. I still remembered many stories about the silat legends. With all do respect to everyone and to you, I don't encourage everyone to agree with my opinon. This is just my worthless opinion. My family is a very devoted muslim, we all do practiced martial arts, my father and uncle aware of the extra curicular practiced in silat, but they decided not to pursue it, they don't bother with that at all. As far as their concern, silat practice is for gerak badan, period. My uncle always said: "Don't make a big deal of it". So I don't.
I also agree with you Mas Bram, wealth is not how much money one had but the peace, harmony and happiness. However, many so called silat master, sign a rank/title certificate with their names on it for a token. This is being very common this day. People coming to visit for a week, a month or less than one year and come back to the USA with a Pendekar certificate, how could that be?
With all do respect to you and O'ong, as far as IPSI silat fights tournament. I was not impress at all. Either the rule is not open for safety reason I don't know. I suggested everyone who study silat, if you want to compete, don't just compete in silat tournament, compete in an open tournament, you will be facing all style of martial arts students, I guarrantee you, it was fun :)
Time to bragg here, in the 70's I used to compete in an open tournament in the east coast. For kata or form, I performed a Shotokan Katas ie: Gojushiho/Kanku/Unshu/Gankaku. For weapon I perform kata from Omory Ryu, Katana, sai/bo/Kama/jo and sometimes I did the dua belati (two knifes form from silat) and For Fighting I performed silat moves. I have total over 250 trophies and over 60 grandchampion trophies for kumite meaning I had to fight the middleweight or heavyweight champion, since I'm in the lightweight divisions to win the grandchampion trophy. I heard my looser stories too, some of them always said, I can't fight you because my techniques is to kill :) yeah right, ********!
I was young, stupid, careless, ADHD/PTSD and I love to fight..
Now I'm old, grumpie and still shamlessly stupid :)

Brother Steve, do your remember the name of the millionare person who had promised one million dollars to anyone can proof that they possessed unantural power or ET power? :)

I think the free speach sometime get in to me too much :)
My appology to everyone!
Tristan

[Rebo Paing]

... and then again it depends on what one means by tenaga dalam.
I believe that in me, it is how I use my body-core to provide me with good principles for movement and reaction. Can I death touch anyone? Not at all!! I am only maximising that which I already have ... the muscles and tendons of my body. For me ilmu tenaga dalam is the art/science of maximising what you already have from a physical perspective ... and that is why I'll never be a jago boxing ... :D

But is it tenaga dalam then? Well, I call it that. I've watched your video's Mas Tristan (your website) and I would say with-out a doubt that you have what I define as tenaga dalam. Surviving a fire-fight or a conflict zone doesn't necessarily mean that one has tenaga dalam though (from my own definition) ... it usually means that you're lucky :woo:

As for other type of tenaga dalam ... it's like Qi ... it's a personal thing, I don't believe in it, but if someone else insists it's what makes their reality that is fine too :cool: . If people think they have it, well and good ... but I'm not thinking about Qi or tenaga dalam for that matter when I have to deal with a drunken 6 foot built like a freight train foot-baller or a person with a grudge who wants a piece of me ... which happens regularly in my line of work (I work security and crowd control to put food on my family table :D)

Salam

[Kiai Carita]

Assalamualikum Bram,...

...However, many so called silat master, sign a rank/title certificate with their names on it for a token. This is being very common this day. People coming to visit for a week, a month or less than one year and come back to the USA with a Pendekar certificate, how could that be?
With all do respect to you and O'ong, as far as IPSI silat fights tournament. I was not impress at all. Either the rule is not open for safety reason I don't know. I suggested everyone who study silat, if you want to compete, don't just compete in silat tournament, compete in an open tournament, you will be facing all style of martial arts students, I guarrantee you, it was fun :)......

Brother Steve, do your remember the name of the millionare person who had promised one million dollars to anyone can proof that they possessed unantural power or ET power? :)

I think the free speach sometime get in to me too much :)
My appology to everyone!
Tristan


Wa'alaikum salam Mas Tristan,

It is interesting that your Uncle talked about Gerak Badan (body movement) rather than Olah Raga (body developing) ... My teacher also called his school Persatuan Gerak Badan - Union of Body Movement. My school also doesn't teach wowow tenaga-dalam and we never demonstrate kebal or breaking steel bars or anything like it. We do use tenaga dalam for healing though, and to get it we train hard in our gerak badan and olah nafas (breath development).

My beloved late teacher used to often say: Don't put your trust in miracles rather understand that discipline will bring progress. No sweat no control of the knowledge. But I see other schools do different things with their tenaga dalam and as a lover of history I know that much of what is in the museum of Kraton Kasepuhan Cirebon (oldest Islamic Kraton still there) is debus equipment.

I agree with you that IPSI tournaments are not imppressive especially for silat connosieurs. What I was trying to say was that in the beginning of Indonesia Merdeka, most masters thought that competitions in the Western way would be running against silat philosophy. Having said that I believe that Cak O'ong did win open tournaments too, not only the silat competitions. And he used to be a street fighter as well, and he felt he needed ilmu kebal when he was young and he sought it and mastered it. His experience is documented in his (to me) interesting book Pencak Silat Merentang Waktu.

Mas Tristan, I don't think that there are that many Pendekar in the USA who have been some months in the Bogor or Banten area and come back with glossy certificates. Maybe only one particular man comes to mind. But having said that, anyone from the First World wishing to have a Pendekar certificate could go to a small traditional school and with smiles over coffee without much hassle, get one. People would be happy to humor her and would in fact feel honoured, especially if the pendekar wannabe designs and words the English version of the certificate themselves and smells of dollars :love: :love: . Only one Pendekar comes to mind as having done this with spelling mistakes and whole Arabic sentences missing from his certificate :cool: .

My problem with this practise is when people collect the pendekar certificates from a traditional school and then set up their own different version, using the certificates only to make themselves more credible. This practise I would say would be durhaka especially if the traditional school was hoping to get an overseas exponent of their art when they signed the certificate. The people in the kampung have to scrape for food while the foreign Pendekar changes the art to suit herself and make money worldwide. That, I think is not fair to the kind people who signed her certificate in the first place.

And then if they go on and teach wowowo magick and so on saying that this is the way it is done back home :Alien: ... wah wah, that is simply outrageous! Spiritual silat is not marketing exoticism.

Warm salaams to all,
Bram.

[Wali]

Brother Steve, do your remember the name of the millionare person who had promised one million dollars to anyone can proof that they possessed unantural power or ET power? :)


http://www.randi.org/research/index.html

[sulaiman]

if you think it's impossible to do Silat without being spiritual, how do you explain me?


Wondering why I'm getting involved with this again,[/QUOTE]

hi bobster,
thanks for your post -I am very happy we can discuss this subject respectfully without falling into cliches and dogma.
for me spirituality does not necessarily translate as religion.
Spirituality describes your own sense of place in the world, the universe and life.
It describes your beliefs , feelings and intuitions about where you were before you were incarnated here, and where you will be when you dis incarnated ( sorry if thats not a real term )

from what you write I am guessing you are what labelling types would label Rational materialist - ie if i dont see or feel it it doesnt exist.

To me that IS your sense of spirituality - you see you cannot escape !

spirituality is to me a basic ingredient of the human condition, we all have it , its just the forms or beliefs that it takes that are different.

To add to that , I would like to restate Brams post earlier about islam.
this is , as you rightly pointed out one of the annoying things about discussing with muslims , we see everything as coming from and returning to god.

for us Islam did not originate with the Prophet Muhammad ( peace and blessings upon him for ever ) but came with the first man, the Prophet Adam ( peace be upon him .)

In that light it is nonsense to speak of silat predating islam - it does not. We are accepting Buddah , Moses etc as well as 124000 other messengers that we do not know the names of as messengers of god - all teaching the same thing - to prepare now for what will come later -
to prepare from your youth for your old age
from your health for your sickness
from your life for your death

a lot of people speak about unity of belief, brotherhood of man etc , and for me this is Islam - we are all coming from and going to the same destination , the only differences are the sights weve seen and the conclusions we have drawn from them !
peace to you my brother
sulaiman

[sulaiman]

Well maybe based on what you have been taught, as oppossed to what you have personally experienced. This is the difference here.

I am pulling out of this thread, as the moment the Bible, Quran, etc... get mentioned, we start to pull away from silat, and things can get "sticky".

My advice remains to steer well clear. People have the free will to do as they choose, so it's ultimately up to the individual.

Regards,
Wali

Salaams all ,

I actually agree with wali here .
There are undoubtedly good Jinn as the Holy quran also states that the jinn said
~Some of us are righteous , and some of us are otherwise . we are parties differing
72 : 11

but the problem is, the ones you are most likely to encounter are the devious ones trying to trick you.

Leave the unseen as just that -UNSEEN , God made it that way for a reason , I have seen a lot of peolple with an unhealthy interest in the jinn go , lets say a bit weird.

In learning silat I am following the way of my master, we train and sweat,
then train and sweat , and to finish more training and sweating - no blood sacrifices involved at all , We all end up with the silat we have earned.

ciao
sulaiman

[Bobster]

Sulaiman;

Thank you for a great response, I appreciate the views of people like yourself!
I don't often get to speak with Silat practitioners who have as open a mind as you, and I always walk away with new insight when I do.

In that light it is nonsense to speak of silat predating islam - it does not

I guess what I meant to do here is caveat that by saying "It predates Islam's arrival in Indonesia" obviously not "in the WORLD".

I would still be open to somebody demonstrating Silat Debus of any kind, as long as you didn't ask me to suspend disbelief. In America, we have a saying: "Believe in Chi (Tenaga Dalam) all you want, but bet your money on the street fighter."

[Orang Jawa]

http://www.randi.org/research/index.html

Thank you Wali, If you think by smoothing me, I would forget your promise to buy me dinner at Indonesian Restaurant in Lincester, you are dead wrong :)
You owe me dinner bro :)
Tristan

[Orang Jawa]

Salam Mas Krisno and Mas Bram,
Thanks for the info. I'm glad to hear from tanah air (home country) that the majority of silat gurus are not been bought :)
When I left Jakarta in 1968, I don't hear much about silat perguruan and the silat system. Karate is much more recognized. And currently I heard Indonesia have over 400 silat system...;)
My dad and I used to visit PORKI (Indonesian karate association)-University of Indonesia di Salemba Raya. Another PORKI we associated with is the one in ATM di Cikini Raya. My dad and my uncle like to compare and contrasted the similarity and the differences between Karate and silat. I love to see the brother discussed the martial arts, get up and perform till wee hour.
You are right Mas Bram, olah raga and gerak badan are two different things, eventhough sound like the same. Gerak Badan (body movement) is not a sport, even though is a sport oriented and received the benefit of sport. Gerak badan is developement mind and body and spirit. I think?
Wassalam,
Tristan

[inthespirit]

There is an interesting discussion of Djinn's by Simon Das on here:

http://www.ukbaguainstitute.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=388