Recovery and Defense after a Front Breakfall

[ladyhawk]

Front breakfalls are a little unnerving for me and while I can successfully execute one I would much rather do a forward roll, recover and defend from a standing position if at all possible but this is not always the case.

That being said...
I immediately turn onto my side and brace myself up on my forearm so that I can easily maneuver
and pivot around. My top leg is chambered for a strike. If I can hook their leg with my bottom
foot, I'll target their knee.

That's my short and sweet explanation.
I'm looking for more options and ideas.

So, How do you recover and defend after a front breakfall?

[Thomas Vince]

I prefer to try getting on my hands and knees and then chamber a right back side kick to any available target, if my elbows are the surface I am connecting with the ground in a way that takes power away from other areas, I find it less powerful and more dangerous because I cannot brace against any type of a tackling offense

[waya]

I will generally roll up in one direction or another. I prefer to come to my knees facing back at my opponent as quickly as I can so I work with side rolling as well as front rolling out. Or (this is slow though) I will flip myself over chambering for a kick to the knee and attempt a backroll to come back to my knees or feet. If a rollout isn't feasible, I agree with Thomas about coming to my hands and knees and shooting a back kick.

Rob

[ladyhawk]

Ok guys,
I know where you're coming from but I don't like the idea of having my back to my attacker. What happens if you back kick and they catch and trap your foot?

Trust me, it's happened. Good thing it wasn't a
real life situation because I didn't handle it very well and I almost lost my pants in the struggle.

Waya,
If you go from face down flat position and try to front roll out, it's not only slow but wouldn't your legs be vulnerable to being caught before you completed your roll?

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Personally in any situation like this I'd just try and stand up normally, move onto my side, cross the upper leg over (chambered for a kick or a spring away if necessary) move to one knee, and then stand. Can't explain it very well but I hope you get the idea.

[Freeform]

Depending on how things flow...

Move onto my side and try to keep my legs between me and my assailant, top leg chambered and bottom foot ready to hook the ankle for a kick/takedown.

Or spin round into a position of one knee and one foot on the ground facing my assailant, most people here will go for the kick, so a circular block/parry and groin/thigh stike follow up. This position also allows you to do a diagonal roll so you can get out of line and pop up on their side.

I agree with Waya about the side (diagonal???) rolling. If someones chasing you up you can't just keep going straight or they'll just run over you, the side roll takes you out of line and is harder to follow.

It would be preferable to just roll out but a lot of the time you don't have any forward momentum so can't. What techniques are you doing to be floored?

Thanx

[waya]

Yes, if I land flat my legs would be very easy to catch. Generally I try to begin rolling during the fall if possible, and land already half over... I don't like to just land, stop, then move. I try to absord the impact of a blow and let it move me, which also dissipates some of the force behind it and results in less pain and more momentum to move and recover. Freeform would probably get the types of rolls I am talking about because they are taught in most Taijutsu (Kukki Shinden Ryu specifically for me.) Front rolls aren't exactly "front" movements, more of a forward diagonal thing, same with back rolls, or rolling backwards and to the side over the upper side of your body and some shoulder. Hard to try to put to words, but it keeps your legs better out of line with your attacker's hands, and if you can use the momentum from the fall, instead of just landing, they can be done fairly quickly.

Rob

[Freeform]

Front rolls aren't exactly "front" movements,
more of a forward diagonal thing, same with back rolls, or rolling backwards and
to the side over the upper side of your body and some shoulder.



Yep. Most of the time if your being push/thrown they'll be 'non-linear' motion. Also it more natural, and you have more control, to execute your rolls using only one arm (or no arms if your Tintin!) and use the length of your arm to shoulder to opposite hip as the area of contact between you and the ground.

Thanx

[ladyhawk]

Yes, I agree with everyone's idea of rolling and
yes I would prefer to go down in a tuck and roll..
forward roll breakfall. I'm talking about, you can't manage a tuck and roll for whatever reason
and end up doing a face down front breakfall.
Now if you go from flat and attempt a roll out
either forward or flip over and try a back roll
it makes your legas vulnerable to being caught.
I know rolls are at an angle on the upper side
and shoulders but you are still presenting your legs briefly to your attacker.

[Freeform]

Of course your exposing your legs. But they are moving in two directions at the time, away from your opponent and in a circular motion. So if you want to run into my legs you do have a chance of catching them but you also run the risk of getting my heel in your chin.

With the time factors involved, barely a fraction of a second, I wouldn't worry to much about it, your real problem is turning to face after your roll.

Thanx

[ladyhawk]

A forward roll from a standing position lands me on my feet. I privot to face my opponent while still crouched down and rise with a good guard
and usually throw a kick.
A back roll usually lands me on one foot with the other one easily brought in. If my positioning is right I may attempt a leg sweep.
If I go down with a front breakfall, I'll roll onto my side, braced up on my forearm. This in combination with my bottom leg allows me to get some distance and helps me maneuver around to
keep my opponent at my feet

[Thomas Vince]

Lady Hawk,
Admiration:D
Concern :eek:

"Trust me, it's happened. Good thing it wasn't a
real life situation because I didn't handle it very well and I almost lost my pants in the struggle."


You stated that you got in this position because your leg was trapped in the attempt of a spinning movement? Before I go on am I correct? You know your gonna get slammed here! But be honest.

[ladyhawk]

Hi Thomas,

I have no problem being slammed if I learn something in the proccess. I learn nothing by being dishonest.

Not a spinning movement.
I had tucked and come up onto my knees but the opponent was closing the distance fast and I never made it to my hands so I was braced on my forearms. My only thought was to create some distance so I came back with a kick that made contact (was told later that it was well felt)
but my opponent absorbed it and caught me.

[Darzeka]

okay for this to kinda work you need to know my definition of a forward roll.

stand in a widish normal stance (slightly more than shoulder width, one foot slightly in front of the other).
Crouch down. place both fists on the floor (knuckles in a line with your body - like a sprinter does only with a fist - and thumbs tucked in) outside your legs.
Lean forward, tuck chin to chest chest, push of with legs slightly(not necesary when at full speed - momentum carries you over.)
Tuck legs close to bum. Place rear foot as close to bum as possible, other foot slightly in front - same width as when you started.
Stand up.
essentially a rolly polly.

Ok. Landed in front break fall. Ride the momentum slightly forward (place forarms slightly more forward then normal then let shoulders compensate). Make a small hopping motion with feet, tucking legs in under you while at the same time roll forearms outward, rolling hands onto fists - I know this is bad for your wrists but it could be life and death.
Complete the forward roll as mentioned above which will put you in a position to complete what you call a forward and what I call a side roll, ready to stand up facing your opponent or running away.

keep in mind that I haven't as yet tried this but in my head it works - I will attempt this and let you know.

[Freeform]

Your right it will damage your wrists but if you train to roll on the backs of your wrists you can do this much faster. Do you ever practice rolls/falls on a wooden floor? Believe me correct mechanics are a must!

[ladyhawk]

Darzeka,
If someone pushes you from behind and you can not recover your footing, how do you do a forward roll?

I don't couch down to do a forward roll from a standing position. I step forward bend and turn slightly at the waist, bring my shoulder down
by placing my arm thru my legs (sortta), chin to chest and push off to roll over and land on the
upper back shoulder area.

To make it a little more challenging we have practiced this by holding a pillow to our chest like holding a baby. LOL! Now, do a forward roll and don't squash the baby.

[ladyhawk]

We train, we ask questions, we train some more.
The dojo is for trial and error so that when we encounter a real life situation...there is no error.

Slam me Thomas!

[Darzeka]

You misread me.

I explained what I call a forward roll to roughly resemble a rolly - polly (something children do).

When we do our side rolls (you say forward roll). We place one leg forward (bend the front knee, keep back leg straight and have feet almost shoulder width apart, this is an attack stance.) then the opposite fist (left leg forward - right hand down) on the ground. The other arm comes through with a scraping motion on the ground. You roll over your shoulder to the opposite hip.The hand that was on the ground should come over at pace and slap the ground in a break fall (just to control the momentum). You can also dive into these rolls which are much fun. The direction of your fist is also used for direction.

Now as I said you land in front break fall position (be sure to bend lots and keep your hips higher than normal). I just tried it and you can do a forward roll (rolly-polly). You can do it straight from and open hand situation (again is dagerous for the wrists but life and death situation).
Now as you come out of the forward roll, instead of standing up just fall forward onto one fist, throw the other arm under.
Turn your hips as you come out of the roll to face backwards, standing up, in a good strong attack stance.
There is a good exercise that you can do with the side rolls where you come up facing backwards and go straight into another roll. Awesome for dizziness training, stamina and rolls practice.
Oh and another thing your guard should be up at all times (I shouldn't need to say this but when rolling it is easy to forget.)

Key points when reading - side roll = your forward roll (a variation)
forward roll = children's rolly-polly (only at pace and head doesn't touch the ground.

I just tried this technique and while it feels wierd it is also possible.
Try to use the momentum from the fall for the roll.
Be careful of your head not hitting the ground - you need to flex your arms and possibly do a wider front break fall then normal (with the arms).

ask away about discrepantcies (spelling??)

Havn't done any rolling on wooden floors. Just the mats, grass, dry sand, wet sand, wet sand into water, water (we did beach training a while ago. Getting thrown on sand and water is so wierd its cool).

Oh and can you do a bench roll without putting a hand on the ground before your curling motion? (bench roll is - stand on bench fall to floor and do a roll - bench is about a foot and half high).

And what is the other hand doing?

Oh and with the baby scenario I would probably put the arm not holding the baby on the ground (in fist) then roll normally. Not sure of this will have to try it (with a pillow though.)

[ladyhawk]

Darzeka,

OK, I'm following you now. I apologize for the confusion in communication. I'm a visual learner and sometimes have difficulty in making a connection with words to form a visual in my mind.
I'm not the kind of person to let something slide by if I'm not sure I understand. I appreciate your patience.

We have discussed rolls, do you have any thoughts on my foot being caught after my back kick?

PS. Don't squash the baby.

[Thomas Vince]

Lady hawk,
With all due respect I did not use the term "be honest" correctly. I think what I was trying to say was that you telegraphed the kick and this is why you were placed in a bad position. Poor use of the term, don't really know why I did, but I did not intend it to used this way I apologize.
If you did telegraph the kick at least you were doing in the Dojo and not on the street. I think what I meant by be honest was the fact that I feel you already know it is a real bad position to be in and there are no real easy answers, and I think you know that. But still a good reason to start this thread. Wish I could say there was an easy answer but there is not!

[ladyhawk]

Hi Thomas,
Yes, you're right. I kindda figured that's probably what it was but when things are happening so fast it's hard to remember movements when you don't think and just do. Those that saw it weren't at the poper angle to tell me what happened.

Have you tried to do a roll holding a pillow baby?

[Darzeka]

okay one thing with the kick - aim for the shin. No one I know has arms long enough to reach their shins and remain balanced.

When you roll onto one forearm perhaps go onto your back.
This will allow full movement with both legs (for trapping and tripping or kicking)
This way if they do catch one foot you can kick them in the hand with the the other foot.

If they come in with a raised foot, trap it between your feet, brace your body on your hands, lift hips and rotate. Either the leg will buckle and come down on a weird angle (attackers wieght is on the back leg) or they will fall over (weight is travelling with the lead leg).

From there it is a wrestling match or you could escape and get back to your feet.

with the hooking of the foot with one leg - don't necessarily go for a kick. Try to push on the knee (faster and allows less reation time) they now can't move forward with balance. If they do reach up and pull them over you (put the foot that was on the knee into the stomach and flick them over - very painful landings here). If they stay back then hook top foot around knee and buckle the leg.

If you do go to your side not your back and you get caught ty to throw your weight around and try to bring them off balance. Try to free up your bottom leg while your at it, allowing a chance for another kick. Quick violent movements will make the attacker pause to control you rather than just moe in for the kill.

There is no position that you can be in where there is not something you can do.

[ladyhawk]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Darzeka
[B]If they do reach up and pull them over you (put the foot that was on the knee into the stomach and flick them over - very painful landings here).

LOL! That's a throw that I'm familiar with and it never came to mind. Probably because I've always done it moving back from a standing position, dropping down and using my opponent's momentum
to send them over.

I never thought of it while already being on the ground. Funny how we sometimes we get conditioned into our own training habits and need someone to point something out to us.

Thanks for the ideas!

[Darzeka]

Yeah I've seen the throw and its in the syllabus for my next belt - the dreaded stomach throw. I've also seen it go wrong, looked very painful indeed.

The thing with reacting to a situation is speed. If you know 15 different ways you could react to any given situation you should just let one go without thought. If it isn't the most effective you could have used it doesn't matter because you would have had a good chance of it hitting it instead of thinking about the best situation you know and being slower.

I think the best way to analyse how you should react is picture it from the attackers point of veiw. This way you can see what they do, what they shouldn't do but could and what they don't want you to do. I admit this is hard during the incident but is good for retrospect and reflex training.

Also try to play circle of death (random attacks from a number of different attackers one at a time) this gives an element of reality to it and also gives you many opportunites to try different things.

When you are just walking around and stuff have a look at the way your body moves, how easy it is to loose balance and where you are vulnerable to attack. This will help you become aware of where you should be aware of attack from.
Dancing helps in this regard with making movements fluid, quick and sure to right your balance.

Again it just comes down to realising what it is you are doing with your throws and techniques in general. Then imagine all the different possible applications they have. You will also come to the realisation that many different techniques are merely variations with the same underlying priciples (at the moment I know about ten different body throws that differ only in the position of your hands when you throw someone).

Glad I could help.
Its amazing how much trying to explain something to someone helps in your understanding of it. I would try the pillow roll but the grass outside is wet :(

[ladyhawk]

Originally posted by Darzeka
Yeah I've seen the throw and its in the syllabus for my next belt - the dreaded stomach throw. I've also seen it go wrong, looked very painful indeed.

*It's bone rattling.*

The thing with reacting to a situation is speed. If you know 15 different ways you could react to any given situation you should just let one go without thought. If it isn't the most effective you could have used it doesn't matter because you would have had a good chance of it hitting it instead of thinking about the best situation you know and being slower.

*I didn't have time to think, I just did and what
I reacted with didn't work because I'm pretty sure I telegraphed my technique.*

Also try to play circle of death (random attacks from a number of different attackers one at a time) this gives an element of reality to it and also gives you many opportunites to try different things.

*We call this "Monkey in the Middle" Those in the
circle are givin a number, a number is randomly called. They go in to attack, another number is called, one retreats and the next goes in only you
are never sure from what direction the attack will come from. Our circle is usually made up of about 10-12 attackers and the defender goes thru all of them. It'll wear your butt out.*

You will also come to the realisation that many different techniques are merely variations with the same underlying priciples

*Yes, I'm aware of this but sometimes we don't always see all the variations and need to either
see someone do it and pick up on it or have someone point it out to us.*

Glad I could help.
Its amazing how much trying to explain something to someone helps in your understanding of it.

*You were very helpful and you're right. That's why teachers can learn from their students.*

I would try the pillow roll but the grass outside is wet :(

*Hey! There's your scenario. You're running with the baby, being chased. You slip on the wet grass.
Remember, circumstances and environment will not
always be ideal.*

[ladyhawk]

I just realized that I screwed responding to Darzeka post so my replies are mixed in with
his quote. Sorry about that.