Langkah application [Archive] - Martial Arts Planet

silek

12-May-2006, 06:29 PM

Wali

12-May-2006, 07:11 PM

Orang Jawa

12-May-2006, 07:42 PM

Salam to all!

Besides evasions and attacks, I am curious how many of us use langkah to avoid takedowns and to free yourselves from locks? In other words to what extent langkah is used as a strategy to prevent takedowns and locks?

For example in a takedown scenario, you punch with your right hand and your right leg is in front. Your opponent parries your punch and enters with his right leg behind your right leg and tried to pushed you down with his right hand. You try to re-balance yourselves by raising your right leg, pushing his right hand upward and at the same time withdraw one step backward and now your left leg is in front. Then you rotate you body 90 degrees so that your right leg is leading and now you are behind your opponent instead and therefore you have superior positioning.

In other words you keep changing your langkah, weight transfer, stance and positioning to prevent attempted takedowns and locks by your opponent.

Langkah is about learning weight transfer, stances, placement and postioning. I had this discussion before, but it seemed everytime I mentioned about the importance of weight transfer and postioniong, someone else will response that they can do better...Okay then :rolleyes:

In response to your query, the key here is "Your opponent parries your punch and enters with his right leg behind your right leg" If he succesfully did that, meaning that he successfully planted his feet on the ground, it would be too late for you to defended. It would be impossible to lift your front leg up;
(a)most punches will ended with a front stance, in order for you to lift your right leg, you must transfer your weight to the back.
(b) your front leg is all ready jammed by his front leg.
UNLESS he is super slow or being taught to slow mo his take down. We must continuesly secure the perimeter, before, during, and after.
Now, in an old silat magazine, page 2, paragraph one, we have learn how to counter that move.
After you deliver a punch, you are sensing the defender moving toward you, since you are in the front stance, most of your weight would in front. Without shifting weight or lift your front leg, move your left leg to 3 o'clock and at the same time counter clockwise block his pushing hand with left hand and take him down with your right hand. This all movement must be executed in one motion, you will end with a reverse front stance and facing 9 o'clock.
But again this is an old magazine..too elementary to most silat players. :)
And I could be wrong too,
Tristan

silek

12-May-2006, 07:49 PM

Wali

12-May-2006, 08:06 PM

Salam Wali!

Yes, it is basically the same concept I am talking about. The idea is langkah is still functioning even at that stage. In Malay it called "langkah tak mati" (langkah is not dead).

So how much emphasis is put on such langkah training in your school?

Besides, is there any langkah applications in your training to free yourselves from locks (completed and incomplete)? What I mean is that when the locks are still in the process and when the locks are already completed.

Thanks for the video link.
Hi Silek,

We place a huge importance on this, and agree 100% with the "langkah tak mati" concept. We don't believe that you are ever finished or cornered, and even in the most dire of positions, you should be able to slip, turn, twist, coil, etc... out of it using your langka and other movements.

As you have gathered, the link was just a promotional footage, but was all I could direct you to that resembled what you were describing.

As far as the locks and freeying from them, in silat, you combine all your arsenal together (lanhka, the pukulan, etc...), so that even if caught in a lock, you have 101 things at your disposal to try and deal with it.

I will try and find a better example for you to see.

Peace,
Wali

silek

12-May-2006, 08:14 PM

Langkah is about learning weight transfer, stances, placement and postioning. I had this discussion before, but it seemed everytime I mentioned about the importance of weight transfer and postioniong, someone else will response that they can do better...Okay then :rolleyes:

In response to your query, the key here is "Your opponent parries your punch and enters with his right leg behind your right leg" If he succesfully did that, meaning that he successfully planted his feet on the ground, it would be too late for you to defended. It would be impossible to lift your front leg up;
(a)most punches will ended with a front stance, in order for you to lift your right leg, you must transfer your weight to the back.
(b) your front leg is all ready jammed by his front leg.
UNLESS he is super slow or being taught to slow mo his take down. We must continuesly secure the perimeter, before, during, and after.
Now, in an old silat magazine, page 2, paragraph one, we have learn how to counter that move.
After you deliver a punch, you are sensing the defender moving toward you, since you are in the front stance, most of your weight would in front. Without shifting weight or lift your front leg, move your left leg to 3 o'clock and at the same time counter clockwise block his pushing hand with left hand and take him down with your right hand. This all movement must be executed in one motion, you will end with a reverse front stance and facing 9 o'clock.
But again this is an old magazine..too elementary to most silat players. :)
And I could be wrong too,
Tristan

Asalamualaikum Pak Tristan!

I agree with you it may be too late to raise the leg at that stage and lifting the leg may compromise balance too. But I gave the elementary example indicating many langkah movements, weight transfer so that everybody can see the concept.

Your solution of the 3 o'clock left leg position is more efficient but since there are not many leg shifting and movements, some beginners may not see the concept. In real fight, yours is better. Anyway thanks for your input and it is very valuable despite coming from the old magazine. :)

SilatSeeker

12-May-2006, 08:34 PM

"In real fight, yours is better."

What other kind of fight is there? :)

"Tristan, your's is better in real fights - but on movie set's we've discovered that xyz is actually far more pleasing to audiences world wide..." :)

Sorry, I'm being a pest. The phrasing just struck me funny.

We do what Tristan suggested. Assuming the busted the move above on you "and took your balance" that means you'll be twisting down with your right leg trapped. Since the left leg is free we'd bring it to the 3 o'clock and either sweep (maybe) or more likely extract the right leg, then step forward and counter sweep or "buka kaki"(sp?) his right with our right. (don't know if that makes any sense in text vs. video - concepts like this are hard with a keyboard).

Orang Jawa

13-May-2006, 01:20 PM

Alaikumsalam Silek,
I have a good old friend, a silat player from KL, do you know Mansur?
I have a question for you in regard of langkah. When you do langkah, how you start from? I meant what weight distribution are you starting it from?

In an old magazine, we almost always start it with 50-50 or neutral stances. And in langkah some steps begin and ended with lifting our leg before stepping. We been taught to familiriaze the weight transfer without thinking about it, by lifting our leg we do automatically transfer our weigth, it was preparation to kick or sweep, etc. Now I have disagreement that out of hand about this, I don't want to go back to that situation again :) I have a good coffee this morning, life is good, and the sun is shinning in Pennsylvania :) So I want to enjoy my weekend.

But the important of shoulders and hips movement are very important in langkah, withouth this two, your kicks or punches are not as effective as intended. Can you kick without moving your shoulder or moving your hips? May be? But if you can, then is that an effective technique? And what is the purpose?
My Pak Lek always said: "Failing to plan is Planing to fail" A very profound word for me.
Not to change the subject, but my friend Todd the trouble maker :) posted link video on his "silat world" about a group of so called silat players from Malaysia who are jumping from three stories building as part of their training. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot! :)
What is that for? Ritual or stupidity? I'm an airborne trained, we knows how to do PLF. This guys don't! I was wonder if you know anything about it.
Terimakasih!
Tristan

Kertas

13-May-2006, 05:28 PM

tim_stl

15-May-2006, 05:15 PM

however, very interestingly i have found that The Silat Cekak system of malaysia only uses one lankah. that is forward. they respond this way to any type of attack and although i cannot seem to get used to that idea, i find it very effective at times. i watchd some guys of this system train and they apply it very well...
thats just my thought. has anyone heard of this system?

in college, i met a student from malaysia that studied cekak. i had to beg him to show me any of his style, so i only saw a little. he mentioned the same thing that you did- they only move forward.

tim

silek

15-May-2006, 06:49 PM

Wa'alaikumsalam Pak Tristan!

Yes I know Mansur although I haven't met him personally. I was in his then discussion group until it was closed. But a few months ago I met his guru Pak Engku Ansarudin. For those who are interested there may be new series of Sapik Kalo videos.

When I learnt my first silat at the age of 13, it had a lot to do with langkah unlike some more popular Malaysia silats which deal with buah. From langkah we were told that we are free to create our own buah depending on our position in relation to our opponents'. But my late guru did not really create any syllabus. Kind of, "if he attacks like this, you respond like this". There were no specific Malay equivalents used by him for the terms like weight distributions/transfer, economy of motion, center of gravity etc, but from what he showed more or less we understood he meant the same concept.

In training there were occasions where his leading right leg jammed behind my right leg but he had more options more than I could have imagined. Those options including yours and mine that we had already discussed before. Sometimes when I thought his jammed right leg couldn't do much, it went to sweep my left leg and sometimes it scissored my right leg. I didn't really know how he did it but he said my fault was to assume only his left leg was free and I should have paid attention to his jammed right leg too. It is like playing chess.

With regard to shoulders and hip movements, I hope I can learn more from you and I think my late guru tried to communicate to me the same concept but I failed to understand.

Shoulder movements remind me where I also used to train under a silat whose senior students fight with their hands behind their backs. The reason given by them among others is that our opponents won't know from where and when their hands will be coming. So they tried to bait and trick their opponents with shoulder movements. When their opponents falsely sensed their attacks by moving even a little then their hands act in concert with their langkah. Sometimes without their hands with only their bodies they execute takedowns on their opponents i.e. by entering with the right angle at the right speed and right timing onto their opponents' bodies. It must be done skillfully otherwise you'll get problems when a 120 kg American footballer attacks. They told me without langkah, buah/pukulan cannot reach you. So their priority is to checkmate their opponents' langkah. Of course the hands behind the back scenario is not suitable for every occasion especially for new students but it shows their heavy reliance on langkah and it definitely enriches my knowledge on how creative human beings when they fight.

On another topic, I watched the footage of the Malaysian silat students jumped from the 3 stories building way back in 1984 but I didn't rush to join them as my late guru told me you should be able to use silat even when you are old and with such strenous training I doubt whether I will be able to apply it when I am old. Last sunday if I am not mistaken a local newspaper reported that they claim to have 840,000 members. FYI the whole population of Malaysia is 25 millions. Don't ask me whether the number is true or not but their demonstrations and ceremonies have been attended by VVIP including no less by the Prime Minister and cabinet members themselves. After all, who can afford to take chances with 840,000 potential voters?

They may truly have such amazing abilities like jumping from 3 stories building just like some other silats here which promote that you can do silat minutes after reciting certain holy verses and mantras. But I don't really like the idea to totally depend on the 'outside forces'. I believe that we should train hard and fight with the best of our physical abilities and then put our fate in the hand of God.

Bye for now.

Silek

silek

15-May-2006, 07:03 PM

assalaamu alaykom brothers and sisters
if i may, i would fully agree with orang jawas response to the senario. it is a typical manouvre my teacher would adopt.
i would assume that in any silat, lankah is one of the most important components to learn and apply.
however, very interestingly i have found that The Silat Cekak system of malaysia only uses one lankah. that is forward. they respond this way to any type of attack and although i cannot seem to get used to that idea, i find it very effective at times. i watchd some guys of this system train and they apply it very well...
thats just my thought. has anyone heard of this system?

Dear Kertas!

Ustaz Hanafi was the founder of silat cekak who learnt it from Guru Yahya Said. Few students of Guru Yahya Said founded Silat Kalimah. Now they have various names of silat kalimah.

I learnt Silat Cekak around 1990's. Now it already split into another silat cekak called Silat Cekak Hanafi. Yes it moves forward without evasion in defence and counter attack. When their leading right legs are behind their opponent's right legs, for example, they move one step forward with their left legs and then rotated 90 degrees from 12 o'clock position to 6 o'clock position.

Bye for now.

Silek

Orang Jawa

17-May-2006, 12:34 PM

Wa'alaikumsalam Pak Tristan!
But my late guru did not really create any syllabus. Kind of, "if he attacks like this, you respond like this". There were no specific Malay equivalents used by him for the terms like weight distributions/transfer, economy of motion, center of gravity etc, but from what he showed more or less we understood he meant the same concept.

Ach, this is reminding me of Pak Lek, In the begining he would say the same thing, only after ten years of training, then he started scrutinized every movements and relations between techniques and body mechanic.
He can make you feel worthless but at the same times gave you a light bulb moment :)

In training there were occasions where his leading right leg jammed behind my right leg but he had more options more than I could have imagined. Those options including yours and mine that we had already discussed before. Sometimes when I thought his jammed right leg couldn't do much, it went to sweep my left leg and sometimes it scissored my right leg. I didn't really know how he did it but he said my fault was to assume only his left leg was free and I should have paid attention to his jammed right leg too. It is like playing chess.

Fighting is like playing chess, if you made a move, prepared and expected your enemy's make three moves in response. This is why we practiced sambut menyambut frequently and less on sparr. Only after you are successfully playing with your sambut menyambut then we are allowed to do sparr. They were two school thoughts on sparr, and I don't want get into sparring words on that. :rolleyes:

IMHO, they were some myths around the students that they were able to sparr without first understand how to attack and defense with a technique that they just learned. I'm not too sure about that, but again I'm a slow learner too :)
The issues that being repeated again and again is how they practiced the techniques. Lack of understanding of the techniques itself.
For examples:
1. The attacker only attack with one punch and the defender response with 5 or ten techniques, at all this time the attacker just standing there and waiting to get hammer. This is a myth! No one will let attacks or punch you like that out side the dojo. If you are practice the defense part of your technique, anticipate any styles of punches, the boxer combination punches, wild punches, and the silat's punches.
2. Practice to attack or to punch or to kick during the sambut. Meaning when you role is attacking, this is your time to learn how to attack properly. NOT to do slowly so your defender friend can do their stuff. In our school, we are started with 4 attack/defense each in one set of sambut. The first two, the attacker slowly attack with a correct techniques and the defense learn to adapt the defense technique, the last two is a full speed with control, of course. But must be with full intent to hit. Pak Lek will scrutinized how you performs in attacking and on defense. He will let you know if you punch like robotic move and how your defense like an old pregnant yak. :D
How many times did you see students practice self-defense doing the slow motion punch and willingly be thrown? How many times did you see someone who are claiming the master but doing the choreograph movement before the demo? In my life time, I did several public demo, I have never once choreograph the move. I will always asked the audience/the students to participate at an instance.

With regard to shoulders and hip movements, I hope I can learn more from you and I think my late guru tried to communicate to me the same concept but I failed to understand.

As I explained before, in order for you to move naturally or effectively, you must have this two moves in synchs. Can you move or apply the technique without a shoulder or hip movements? The answer is yes..but less effective and a risky movement. Then why you do it in the firs place, the solution is first to accept the natural human body mechanic and lastly be one with the technique.
And I could be wrong too,
Tristan

rizal

12-Jul-2006, 04:28 PM

Years ago, my guru usually humbles his students by actually beating their students only by langkah. He only uses his hands close to the body to parry. It still amazes me when I remember how in a few small steps, he moves around or even penetrate the opponent's defense and placed himself in a position where he can have many options on how to take out his opponent while his opponent has no change to escape or defend.

Regarding the scenario, always remember while your opponent is jamming your right leg, by default your leg jammed his too, a simple concept that tends to be forgotten. In chess, it is called Gambit :D . But then again, I always prefer throws.

I am concerned nowadays for new students of silat. They simply prefer to study how to punch, kick, and throw, while ignoring langkah. They always think langkah is only important to get in. Yet, i know that if you study only langkah properly for a few years, no one can touch you. You simply dance around them....then run :D

Gajah Silat

12-Jul-2006, 05:38 PM

But surely the Langkah is the basis of all attacks including throws?

Sometimes we practice langkah with no arm movement. Sparring with just langkah as it were, trying to gain the advantage shin to shin etc.

Makes you realise how important the 'base' is :)

Pekir

12-Jul-2006, 06:33 PM

Hormat Pesilat2,

In my silat the langkah is your main fundament. In the seventies we created a basic curriculum of langkahs the make it easier to grow towards the strenght and agility needed for our low stance trained asli (original) style. Next to that we created person to person latihans derived from the techniques used in the (asli) langkahs.

In the asli curriculum however it's pretty much all about the langkahs. We have several langkahs for every of the following patterns/forms: straight line, triangle, square, cross and circle. The difference between langkahs of the same pattern/forms lies in the application of the arm, leg and upperbody (hips upwards) and foremost the combination of these techniques. Since we sincerly believe in training the techniques in such a way that it becomes an instinctive part of your acting one main technique is being repeated throughout the langkah.

So what you get is a langkah pattern/form in combination with certain arm/leg technique but there is no holy bond between these. Your understanding and instinct, after a long ways of training, makes you move and react to your opponent based upon all the langkahs you learned (not limited to one predefined langkah). The direction you take doesn't limit the use of any technique, the (wrong) choices you make makes ofcourse do decides more or less if you will be able to continue the fight :) :bang:

I'm not sure I understand your specific question in regard to the feet but I might offer you two other options (amongst surely a lot more). We use a technique for example where when blocked by an opponents leg from behind we turn shin on our heel towards his and (in theory and when executed on the right moment, I agree with Tristan) take over the movement, our shin will be against his at this time (don't forget to attack him fiercly now :rolleyes: ) The other could be based upon a the completely different principle that it is not always wise the confront the opponent at that certain moment. What I mean is, you could opt for getting out of it by rolling away from the attacker in an effort the regain posture and more or less start over again.

Sampai bertemu lagi
Pekir

Gajah Silat

12-Jul-2006, 07:25 PM

We use 7 langkah, each of which can be interchanged with different applications. Of course some work better than others, but for the most part things flow from one to another.

What I particularly like about Silat is the adaptiveness which allows for the opportunity to 'come back' from either a misjudged move or an unexpected turn of events(me doing something stupid usually) :)

Taker

31-Aug-2006, 09:32 AM

however, very interestingly i have found that The Silat Cekak system of malaysia only uses one lankah. has anyone heard of this system?

Peace to All

As an instructor in Silat Cekak Hanafi, I would like to address the question so that everyone would know and understand more on this martial art.

In Malaysia traditionally the steps is called "tapak" (and I must tell you, "tapak" is different from "langkah"). Occasionally this refers to how many steps it takes for the opponents' punch/kick to be blocked, hit him/her back and then locking them. The quality of Silat in Malaysia is often graded by it's tapak, the shorter steps it takes, the better the silat was as it'll be quicker to defeat the opponent, but this is a relative evaluation.

Most silat system use "tapak empat" (four steps) eg. Silat Gayung Fatani, some like Silat Sendeng use "tapak tiga" (three steps) and the lowest number known is "tapak dua" (two steps). Silat Cekak is one of several silats that only requires two steps to defeat the opponents complete with locks. :cool:

As for using only one tapak, I doubt there's any silat uses only "tapak satu", but in Silat Cekak Hanafi there are times where we only block and hit back the opponent without locking him/her (almost as short as it gets - tapak satu?), especially in tight situations like being attacked by several people at once. :rolleyes:

In Silat Cekak we didn't evade any attacks, everytime we move closer and closer to the attacker, so this is a really close-quarter combat. That's why in the past Silat Cekak was nicknamed Silat Papan Sekeping (literally means Piece of Wood Silat). Because we didn't evade backward or sideways but continuosly move forward, Silat Cekak can be used in very tight places, even on a bridge made only from a single piece of wood. :eek:

I think that's enough for now, and I do hope this post helps in one way or another. Should you have anymore questions please feel free to email me at undertaker@cekakhanafi.com

Pekir

31-Aug-2006, 10:41 PM

Hi Taker,

Interesting post, but one question. If you talk about tapak tiga and empat do you mean they allways end with a lock? Like defense, hit back and lock (tiga) and defense, hit back, hit again and lock (empat)

In our school almost all techniques are tapak dua if I've understand your post right, which doesn't mean you are limited to 'two steps' of course. Locking is not a typical preference, we do have them though.

We make a difference between what we call our pukulan betawi and silat. The latter is more or less based on point circle movement, the first is based on confronting the opponent straight forward. If performed well both of them are agressive in the sense that one is not supposed to step back in defence but towards the attacker. This doesn't always works out right in training of course....

hormat, Pekir

Taker

01-Sep-2006, 05:40 AM

Peace To All,

I'll try to elaborate about tapak as much as I can, as some can confuse tapak with langkah (in my place the two words have a totally different meaning).

Langkah is the basic single moves that we use, eg. block, punch, kick, etc. A block is one langkah, a punch is one langkah, a step forward/backward is one langkah. So if you block a punch, move to the side, kick him to the ribs, then you locked him/her, it means you used four langkahs.

Tapak is the sets of langkahs used at one single moment. Lets say we have four basic moves; block, step, hit, lock. These four langkahs can be interpreted in three different kind of tapaks; 2, 3 or 4, depending on how many moves you do simultaniously at a time.

Tapak Empat 1. Block 2. Step 3. Hit 4. Lock.

Tapak Tiga 1. Block and Step 2. Hit 3. Lock.

Tapak Dua 1. Block, Step and Hit 2. Lock.

A silat should include locking moves in the package, as in many magazines in Malaysia including the leading magazine, Seni Beladiri had stated; a buah must end with locking the opponent, as the lock is what makes the technique a silat's buah. :D

In some cases we didn't lock the opponent, like when we were attacked by several thugs at the same time, but that doesn't mean we abandon locks. It's the locks that differs Silat from other martial arts, so locking techniques is crucial. ;)

I do hope my post helps in some way. Peace to All! :Angel:

Wali

01-Sep-2006, 10:05 AM

Langkah is the basic single moves that we use, eg. block, punch, kick, etc. A block is one langkah, a punch is one langkah, a step forward/backward is one langkah. So if you block a punch, move to the side, kick him to the ribs, then you locked him/her, it means you used four langkahs.

Hi Taker,

I'm a little confused by your post. In your system, a punch is considered a langhka? Perhaps there is a confusion of terminology, but langhka in the conventional sense refers to the lower body movements, and not to things like punches and blocks. While punches and strikes ARE performed during the langhka, they don't constitute the langhka themselves, as they aren't required for the movement (I hope this makes sense!).

Admitedly I don't know too much about Malaysian silat, so it just may be a case of lost on translation.

Also, I would have to differ or your comment that locks are crucial. While they may have their places under certain specific circumstances, I don't think they are crucial for each application per se. You can never second guess how your going to finish a fight off. It may well be to smash a brick in someones head if that's what the situation at the precise moment dictates... a world away from a lock! (Apart from getting locked up in prison if caught! :) )

Cheers,
Wali

Kiai Carita

01-Sep-2006, 01:27 PM

Hi Taker,

I'm a little confused by your post. In your system, a punch is considered a langhka? Perhaps there is a confusion of terminology, but langhka in the conventional sense refers to the lower body movements, and not to things like punches and blocks. While punches and strikes ARE performed during the langhka, they don't constitute the langhka themselves, as they aren't required for the movement (I hope this makes sense!).

Admitedly I don't know too much about Malaysian silat, so it just may be a case of lost on translation.

Also, I would have to differ or your comment that locks are crucial. While they may have their places under certain specific circumstances, I don't think they are crucial for each application per se. You can never second guess how your going to finish a fight off. It may well be to smash a brick in someones head if that's what the situation at the precise moment dictates... a world away from a lock! (Apart from getting locked up in prison if caught! :) )

Cheers,
Wali

Peace to all,

Wali, it is a case of lost in translation. Your system thinks of langkah as steps in the sense of where the feet and legs go, which is correct. But langkah also means a move, as in a move in chess. In this context, a langkah can be a slap or a poke just like Taker is using it.

Warm salaams,
Bram

Wali

01-Sep-2006, 01:35 PM

Peace to all,

Wali, it is a case of lost in translation. Your system thinks of langkah as steps in the sense of where the feet and legs go, which is correct. But langkah also means a move, as in a move in chess. In this context, a langkah can be a slap or a poke just like Taker is using it.

Warm salaams,
Bram
Aha... The importance of context!

Thanks Bram.

taoizt

01-Sep-2006, 02:25 PM

tellner

01-Sep-2006, 05:13 PM

Terminology varies from country to country, sometimes even street to street. No biggie.

Insisting that everything end with a lock is a biggie. Sometimes a lock is a good technique. Sometimes it is a stupid one. If you want style points from the judges it makes sense. If it really is "beladiri" it might be wiser to focus on the goal of neutralizing the attack rather than performing a particular movement. "I did the lock! Wasn't it pretty?" is cold comfort indeed when you are trying to tell the future by looking at your own entrails (hint: the oracle says "Short" :) ) Means and ends. It's always a good idea to keep them clear.

It also depends on what sort of attack you are dealing with. Is your goal to keep drunk uncle Fred from driving off with a blood alcohol level of .4? Something that keeps him immobilized and uses pain to focus his attention might be a good idea. An angry ex-boyfriend wants to kill you for leaving him? Mmm. Nope. Once you have him locked up what do you do, wait for him to see reason, shake your hand and go home? There's one where the "break it and move on to the next thing that needs breaking" or "Enter, while hitting, throw him on the ground, and do the tarantella on his head until it's not the same shape any longer" makes much more sense.

If it makes the performance artists happier she can make the takedown picture perfect and strike a pose before stomping an artistically correct mudhole in him. And wear a sarong while she does it. I assure you, not one in a thousand of the people who've ever done silat or silek or whatever the local name is will say "That wasn't silat. I didn't see a lock at the end."

You should never, ever make performing a technique more important than winning the fight. The technique might be the wrong one. It might not work. It might be the wrong fight.

Pekir

02-Sep-2006, 01:00 AM

Terminology varies from country to country, sometimes even street to street. No biggie.

I assure you, not one in a thousand of the people who've ever done silat or silek or whatever the local name is will say "That wasn't silat. I didn't see a lock at the end."

You should never, ever make performing a technique more important than winning the fight. The technique might be the wrong one. It might not work. It might be the wrong fight.

Hi Todd,

I agree fully

Hormat Pekir

Walang Kadung

02-Sep-2006, 01:20 AM

You should never, ever make performing a technique more important than winning the fight.

Actually I disagree (slightly) ... that should read "you should never, ever, ever, EVER make performing a technique more important than winning the fight". :D

Salam

Taker

02-Sep-2006, 05:11 AM

Peace to All,

I see many opinions posted regarding locks in Silat's buah. Well each of us has their rights to address their thoughts, just as I will elaborate some more on Silat in Malaysia.

In many of the biggest Silat styles in Malaysia, locking techniques are crucial. So crucial in fact that locking buahs has became the spotlight of choice to promote the aliran to the public. Even in demonstrations, buah kuncian (locking techniques) is the top priority to show the public how good silat as a martial art can be.

In my style, Silat Cekak Hanafi, out of 21 defensive buahs, only 1 of them didn't end with a lock, the other 20 uses locks to finish the opponent. So why does locks is considered important?

There's more to locks than "keeps him immobilized and uses pain to focus his attention". I'll try to explain this based on my style of Silat.

1. Crush the opponent.
You said that you wanted to "do the tarantella on his head until it's not the same shape any longer", for me its better to do it when he was locked. Locks should let you manipulate him easily without jeopardising your own safety, and let you "play" with him for good measure. ;)

2. Stop a fight.
You had accidentally pissed off your friend, he lost his temper and now grabs a baseball bat. He lunges forward to attack, so do you mudhole-stomp him till he's lifeless? :confused: There are locks that can be used to stop him with minor damage, and gives the opportunity to talk his senses back.

3. Neutralize weapons.
I've seen police reports that shown a knife user still grabs his weapon tightly in his hands even after being shot. It shows just how high the motivation of an attacker can be to ensure a succesful attack. You don't think with just a punch and kick he'll drop the knife don't you? In my system we use locks to disarm the opponent and uses it back onto him (makan diri).

4. Defeat the opponent.
In my style there are buahs that crucially require locks, as it's the locks that put him down. There are locks that break the neck, dislocate the shoulder, crush the larynx and my favourite, make him eat the sand. :D

This is as far as I can elaborate. Again this is my humble opinion based on my style and surely it differs from yours, but anyway I do dope this post helps in one way or another. :Angel:

Pekir

03-Sep-2006, 10:50 PM

Hi Taker,

Others could hardly discuss or debate your style on it's preference on locking techniques. It would be the same as going into a debate on wether (for example) Aiki Jitsu is a inferiour or better MA than silat is. I'm pretty sure (and hope) there are not many, probably none, of the members on this thread who would debate on this, since every art has it's virtues and is as good as it's practitioner.

As for the meaning of words. You refer to 'buah kuncian' as locking technique. An Indonesian teacher once talked to me about 'kunci' when he showed a technique. He used kunci in the sense of 'the essence' of the technique, which one could translate as 'key'. Just to show the different use of the more or less same words.

Hormat,
Pekir

Orang Jawa

04-Sep-2006, 04:02 PM

Salam Taker,
First of all, you are using the same logo as mine. ;)
As a beginer in Aikijutsu and Silat, I can speaks without prejudice. Both are conected and complementary to each other. That's all I can tell you.
Beware of using the hold's or wrist manipulation or locking technique. Your objective is not get hit! To many students applying this technique very carelessly. They apply the technique as they were practicing in the dojo, by grapping the incoming attack. It would be almost imposible to grab the experience boxer jab. They should learn how to avoid/deflect then atemi before attempted to grab their opponent hands or part of the attacker's body. Otherwise, you will be in deep doo doo.
Taker, you are talking about disarming the attacker who have a baseball bat. Only in the movie that can happen or during the demo which the attacker only do one swing slowly or fast and furious but with control and/or the attacker was hurting and unable to swing his bat. Lastly, small space will hindered his movement with bat, we may be able to take an advantages on that situation. Other than the above. Don't assume you can, it can harmful to your health :)

Yes we all learned weapons disarmament to some degree. Use it wisely, use it as the last option. But again, I can be wrong too.
Tristan

Taker

10-Sep-2006, 03:27 PM

Peace to All,

Firtsly about the locking techniques, as I mentioned in my post about tapak, my style of silat is using tapak dua as the foundation:

1. Block, step and hit (simultaniously) 2. Lock

In the first tapak I will block the attack, step forward and hit the attacker. Many of you posted about the hit is the key thing in a fight, and I never throw it away! I do say that I'll hit him before he is to be locked. I never said that I lock him first before hitting him. Hit is extremely important, and for a man who belives highly in silat locks like me, it'll be more crucial.

Some say we must never do anything much more important than techniques that wins the fight, and I never say to my fellow students that it doesn't. The hit or Pemakan is the #1 priority, and locking the attacker is a bonus.

About the attacker with the bat, if you had read my post a little bit more closely, I mentioned that what if he is your best friend, who just got mad at you 2 minutes ago because you just said something that pissed him off? (your fault!)

Choice #1; Let him beat you to a pulp, cause HE IS your friend that just lose some screws for the moment :eek: .

Choice #2; Hit him back as hard as you can, because HE WAS your friend until he decided to attack you :woo: .

Choice #3; Run as fast as you can to the nearest police station and lock yourself up in a cell so that he can't come near you, because HE ISN'T your friend, just some street thugs trying to beat you up :confused: .

Choice #4; Use a technique with minimal damage, lock him and talk him to his senses back, because YOU ARE his friend and want to clear the situation :Angel: .

For me I would choose the fourth one, and that concludes my opinion, hope it'll help in one way or another :D .

tellner

10-Sep-2006, 09:39 PM

It depends very much on circumstances. As I said, if it's someone who is a bit out of control but still basically alright and likely to respond to reason when he's had a chance to calm down minimal force pain-compliance is great. If you plan on using it as your main strategy to deal with a violent crime that places you in danger of injury or death, then with no real respect at all, I would say you are a damned fool if you put yourself at risk to keep from hurting the criminal. And if you endanger a loved one for the sake of an attacker's well-being you have taken complete leave of your senses and all morality.

Orang Jawa

11-Sep-2006, 01:30 AM

tellner

11-Sep-2006, 01:51 AM

Taker

11-Sep-2006, 07:53 AM

Peace to All,

Well everyone have the rights to address their opinion, as well as to believe what they think is right.

About the bat attacker, how can your friend be a murderous criminal after it's you who makes him pissed off? In my opinion, as a Muslim I should apologize and be friends again, and to make him listen to me, I could lock him for a minute or two, apologize and talk to him, release the lock while continue talking and let him cool down. It may take time, but at least I'm not losing a friend and break the Silaturrahim with anyone, which is a very big sin :bang: .

About how locks are important, all I can say is that's just how my style thought me. I just can't go to my grandmaster and say, "Hey, someone in the internet just said that locks aren't good. So why don't we throw it away eventhough it's the core of this silat that our ancestors passed down to us", can I? :confused: I believe in my style, as should everyone of us believe in each own unique art.

We are all from different styles with different methods, approach and teachings, but again our objectives are the same; to learn the art of self-defence, and to preserve the authenticity of this art known to the world as Silat.

About the wife topic, I don't know how that stemmed but for me, I'll just make sure she knows Ibu Gayong and Bisik Semak before I marry her, then it'll never be a problem :D . This is my opinion an I hope it helps in any way.

sulaiman

11-Sep-2006, 10:38 AM

salaams all
just to add my 1 euro to the discussion, langkah ,as in footwork, weight distribution, and evasive positioning is 90% of our silat Melayu - along with kuda kuda , which is the essential ingredient.
Taker -From what I have seen of Silat cekak it appears to have dropped the kuda kuda , is this the case ?

ciao

sulaiman

Taker

11-Sep-2006, 04:06 PM

Peace to All,

I'm sure Mas Sulaiman has watched a few live demonstrations or videos maybe on Silat Cekak :cool: . Yes our style didn't have kuda-kuda, even tough almost every other silat style here in Malaysia, perhaps 99.9%, used kuda-kuda as their base, as far as to differ one style to the other you can just know it by looking at their kuda-kuda.

But Silat Cekak differs from all, and easily noticed, by standing straight while waiting for the opponents' attack. There are reasons as for why we dropped the kuda-kuda, as well as the bunga that comes along with it (there's no point for bunga without kuda-kuda).

One of them is to confuse the attacker that the Silat Cekak practitioner isn't a martial artist. By standing straight, the foe will think that he/she is "lauk" or easy prey, and then at the crucial moment he/she counters back when the foe least expected :eek: .

The other one is to train the practitioner to be ready at all, and I mean all, times. As we are ready by standing straight when facing the attacker, we develop ourselves to be ready for attacks whenever we're standing straight.

Ready = Stand Straight
Stand Straight = Ready

That's all I can elaborate for now. Perhaps you could drop by to any nearest Silat Cekak Hanafi classes if you're in Malaysia, or you can visit http://vertika.dynu.com/cekakhanafi/indexpersilatan.php3 for more info, in Malay of course. Hope this post helps in one way or another :D .

Orang Jawa

15-Sep-2006, 03:19 PM

Well, yes. If he's coming after you with a baseball bat he's not a friend. He's a murderous criminal. That's why the second part was included.

Exactly what portion of my post did you consider to be BS? Would you put your wife at even a particle of extra risk in order to make a criminal safer? Would any husband?

Salam Todd,
My appology, I was not reffering a BS ring to your comment, but to the person who made the first comment. :)
I agree with you bro, I would never put my new bride even in nano risk, its only three weeks, may be later? Just kidding bro ;)
Tristan

tellner

15-Sep-2006, 04:44 PM

Thanks Tristan. Speaking of brides, how is married life treating you?

Orang Jawa

20-Sep-2006, 12:44 PM

Thanks Tristan. Speaking of brides, how is married life treating you?

Life is good, Todd, thanks!
This ugly face is still glowing :) I hope it will never go away but I can't expect the impossible, right. Therefore, I'm going to enjoy it while it last :)
Tristan

hafizan85

27-Sep-2006, 11:08 PM

As for the meaning of words. You refer to 'buah kuncian' as locking technique. An Indonesian teacher once talked to me about 'kunci' when he showed a technique. He used kunci in the sense of 'the essence' of the technique, which one could translate as 'key'. Just to show the different use of the more or less same words.

Hormat,
Pekir

Salam

My english is a bit bad. so i apologize in advance for any mistype/mispell in my post :Angel:

Maybe pekir has misunderstood kuncian with kunci. Kunci maybe referred as key. yes it does mean the essence of the technique. But kuncian is a different thing. Kuncian is referred as locking. ;)

And I'm a cekak practitioner too. :D not yet as instructor though.hehe

Taker

26-Mar-2008, 11:21 AM

Quoting from Guru Azlan Ghanie, the grandmaster of Silat Melayu Keris Lok 9 and editor of Seni Beladiri magazine in Malaysia:

"Locking is what differs Silat from other martial arts of the world".

This is one messed up topic. It's funny when we say that everyone is entitled to their own opinion but along then comes someone who says that everyone is wrong and he's the only man right.

Anyway, the above quote concludes my point of view. Yours may be different, and it's the freedom of speech that brought us here.

Saiful Azraq

24-Apr-2008, 08:28 AM

Salam hormat everyone,

I pop in once in awhile, so most of you might not remember me. Allow me to give my 2 sen (Malaysian currency), late as they are to the topic.

Orang Jawa
“Without shifting weight or lift your front leg, move your left leg to 3 o'clock and at the same time counter clockwise block his pushing hand with left hand and take him down with your right hand. This all movement must be executed in one motion, you will end with a reverse front stance and facing 9 o'clock.”

I agree with Tristan on this. Depending on the situation and how the opponent is positioned behind you, there are several other options. One of them is a classic one from the play in Silat Pulut (or two-man kembangan, dunno what you guys call it):

Without stepping, gelek (weight transfer) from your left leg to the right, effectively screwing it clockwise into the ground while giving slack to your attacking arm and counter his parry with your left arm, now closer to him because of your gelek. Your left leg should now be on tiptoe.

This option has several advantages. A. It takes less time than stepping. B. You make your right foot more difficult to sweep. C. You are in prime position to either drop on your right knee and buckle his at the same time, backfist his face, knifehand his neck (and possibly follow up with a Putar Kepala), or pull him over your static leg.

I open it for your criticism. Sheer choreography, or useful application? By the way, I didn’t get to see the video on myspace, so some positioning differences would influence my decision to do the above technique.

Silek
“We place a huge importance on this, and agree 100% with the "langkah tak mati" concept.”

I agree 300% with this :) ‘Mati langkah’ (checkmate) comes first from ‘Mati akal’ (clueless), so I would say a key foundation in silat is creative, lateral, parallel and who knows what other types of thinking they have yet to label.

Orang Jawa
“I have a question for you in regard of langkah. When you do langkah, how you start from? I meant what weight distribution are you starting it from?”

I know this question was directed to Silek, but may I add my bits (ouch) to it? Different styles I studied have a different ratio. Silat Cekak, having no perceivable kuda-kuda (kekuda) normally advocated 50-50 on a standing position. This was also true for Silat Sendeng’s initial defensive position for surprise attacks. However, Silat Sendeng’s attacking stance has about 80% leading foot distribution.

Silat Melayu Keris Lok 9 has a more complex method involving weight foci on 9 points of each foot that correspond to particular functions (kicking, stepping, skating, sliding, bentes, sapu, etc). Silat Kalimah has almost a 70% leading foot distribution.

“But the important of shoulders and hips movement are very important in langkah, withouth this two, your kicks or punches are not as effective as intended. Can you kick without moving your shoulder or moving your hips? May be? But if you can, then is that an effective technique? And what is the purpose?”

In Silat Cekak and Silat Kalimah, the shoulders and hips don’t move prominently in punches and kicks because it has different physical culture than traditional Silat Melayu. Since Silat Cekak is a short range catch-and-strike system, most of their punches and low-level kicks work quite well with this. Silat Melayu Keris Lok 9 doesn’t provide emphasis on the hip and shoulders in movement, but concentrate on channeling flow from the tapak into the extremities. But, when the flow gets disconnected at these two joints, then the guru will comment on it.

Silat Sendeng, being a high-powered pukulan system uses the shoulders and hips to generate and step-up energy into their kicks and punches. Guru Omar Hakim of Silat Kuntau Tekpi USA once commented that it looks very similar to Serak, so maybe there’s something you can reference there to understand what I mean.

“…so called silat players from Malaysia who are jumping from three stories building as part of their training... Ritual or stupidity?”

Those guys are from Silat Lincah Malaysia and have been doing stuff like that as part of their tests for years. It has nothing immediately to do with silat techniques other than an extreme way to test their courage. In many cases, the tests are done publicly.

Pekir
“In my silat the langkah is your main fundament.”

As I believe it should be in all traditional Silat.

“We use a technique for example where when blocked by an opponents leg from behind we turn shin on our heel towards his and (in theory and when executed on the right moment, I agree with Tristan) take over the movement, our shin will be against his at this time”

I agree with this one, which is similar to the option I gave above.

“What I mean is, you could opt for getting out of it by rolling away from the attacker in an effort the regain posture and more or less start over again.”

This type of disengagement is prominent in striking-based systems like Gayong or Sendeng which intend to get out of striking distance as quickly as possible. More locking-based systems like Keris Lok 9, Gayung Fatani, Cekak, Kuntau Tekpi or Kalimah typically tend toward your first option, to keep in the game at a range where full-force striking is difficult.

Taker
“In Malaysia traditionally the steps is called "tapak" (and I must tell you, "tapak" is different from "langkah"). Occasionally this refers to how many steps it takes for the opponents' punch/kick to be blocked, hit him/her back and then locking them. The quality of Silat in Malaysia is often graded by it's tapak, the shorter steps it takes, the better the silat was as it'll be quicker to defeat the opponent, but this is a relative evaluation.”

I would debate your definition as a myopic one. I too studied Silat Cekak to instructor level and understand what you mean. Silat Cekak doesn’t understand the Tapak terminologies the way most other traditional Silat do.

Langkah and Tapak are used interchangeably in Malaysia since most styles from Kedah, Perak and Pahang use Tapak to mean footwork or a stepping pattern (a terminology we sometimes share with the Sumaterans)while Langkah is prevalent in the south, brought in by Cimande and Sendeng practitioners.

For many of the Melayu systems, there is agreement on what is considered Tapak 3, Tapak 4, Tapak 5, Tapak gelombang, etc and it doesn’t refer to the amount of physical footsteps necessary nor the amount of discernible physical actions taken to recounter an attack. Tapak refers to how many static points on the floor that you move on complete one defensive counter.

For example, as you await an attack in a kuda-kuda (or straight-back, your choice), you are on two feet. This is Tapak 1, the first point. The moment you shift balance or step left, right, back, diagonal, etc to avoid an attack, this is Tapak 2, and when you step again to complete the repositioning, this is Tapak 3. Many readers will recognize this as the equivalent to Langkah 3. So, in many cases, Tapak and Langkah are practical synonyms.

Your definition of Tapak 4 is also debatable, since if you watch Seni Gayung Fatani perform Tapak 4 (now properly codified into a ritual dance), they move on four points of a square. Most of the time Tapak 4 is used to deal with medium range weapons like parang, swords or tongkat (short than a tembong, a long staff, which is what most Indonesian silat call tongkat).

There are other things I disagree with in this post, but to discuss that would be to stray from Silek’s original question.

“A silat should include locking moves in the package, as in many magazines in Malaysia including the leading magazine, Seni Beladiri had stated; a buah must end with locking the opponent, as the lock is what makes the technique a silat's buah.”

I agree with you on the first part, with a little change in emphasis. When translated from Bahasa Melayu, the practical meaning of Kuncian is locking. Kunci means to lock. Anak kunci means key. But when you translate its ideological meaning, it becomes Immobilisation. Thus, any sort of movement that reduces leverage or limits movement is considered a Kuncian, even if you’re simply holding someone’s wrist.

I respectfully disagree though that a lock ‘makes’ the technique a buah. A buah is a short technique that disables the opponent’s ability to do us further harm. You can do this by locking, throwing (him to the ground) and striking the living daylights out of him.

You’ll find your claim spurious with Silat Sendeng practitioners because their style teaches buah that has very little if no locking whatsoever. Can we claim it is not silat? It is safer to say that locking is a hallmark of northern style silat, while pukulan is a hallmark of southern style silat. However, post-Merdeka, all of this could be a moot point within 10 years or so.

You then go out of the way to contradict yourself by saying: “In my style, Silat Cekak Hanafi, out of 21 defensive buahs, only 1 of them didn't end with a lock, the other 20 uses locks to finish the opponent.”

This means that one of your buahs is not considered silat. I’m sorry, but in my experience, Silat Cekak can hardly speak for Malaysian silat as a whole. I would rather speak of Silat Cekak as a highly unique and effective combat method, but there’s very little connection to other Silat Melayu.

Finally
Thanks for the opportunity and apologies all around to the guys if I haven’t added anything to the discussion. Just thought I’d try. Thanks.

Salam persilatan,

Raden-Rahmat

04-Jun-2008, 04:36 PM

salam to all and here comes my 3 cents, worth 1 sen in malaysia...cos its south african currency...lol...
debating on weight distribution and positioning of body and direction etc...however, what if the response is tipu??? in my opinion silat uses tipu alot which is an element not progressively advised in other arts...our teacher usually spoke of this when showing us the Seni...seni is so involved and even the shadow fighting...but back to basics...if the tipu is used...im sure the attacker would never stand the chance to have u...as you now have his steps calculated

Saiful Azraq

05-Jun-2008, 04:06 AM

Salam hormat Raden-Rahmat,

Hahahahaha... Definitely a spanner in the works! I agree wholeheartedly. But if you remember your studies in Silat Melayu Keris Lok 9, the Tipu Helah is part of the Tapak and the Lam Alif.

Tipu Helah is quite controversial in silat over here, since deception is 99% prohibited in Islam, except in times of war. I have met pesilat who have incorporated so much of Tipu Helah philosophy in their lives, that they've become habitual liars. This is the danger that was tempered by Islam.

Tipu Helah is not a predominant characteristic of all silat, but mainly those that originate from Sumatera and Tanah Melayu and existed long before Islam came to our shores. All Islam did in this sense, was to install a moral compass within pesilat to know when and where it was necessary to use this.

I've written about this before, so I'll just link it here. I'd appreciate your comments.
http://silat-melayu.blogspot.com/2008/01/tipu-helah-shameless-trickery-of-silat.html

Salam persilatan,

Raden-Rahmat

05-Jun-2008, 03:03 PM

slm and thanks but u can give my spanner back now...hehe
regards to tipu...helah>>>
im not too sure it should considered an issue for the islamic judiciary to be involved. since defence in the first place is necessary when being attacked, which is injustice on 1st count. Islam considers the right to stand and fight for your rights and survival...like the ayah in surah tawbah....basically saying that we should prepare with whatever means we have, in strength and in weaponry, to implant fear in the hearts of the enemy. so in light of this, if your tipu results in him retreating from further injustice, then your act was justified. morally and ethically your grounds to defend our natural and legal. whether you are straight forward or use tipu, your right to defend is one that is recognised.

my opinion...only mine