Women's self defence - falsehoods

[mmafiter]

I have seen some of these women's self defence seminars and classes that are taught in martial arts (I used to be an instructor in a women's defence program) and I sometimes just shake my head at the stuff they are teaching/telling these women to do.

First off I think you have to tell women that despite all the feminist rhetoric, they ARE generally the weaker sex, physically. Now, usually women get pissed off, but if your going to try and defend yourself, the politically correct answer isn't going to cut it. Women are generally physically weaker, it's the truth so you might as well be honest and spend your time accordingly, not learning techniques that require you to overpower your opponent.

Keep it simple. I can't believe some of the flashy or unrealistic crap I see these guys trying to teach these women! Pressure points?!:rolleyes:

Get serious. When I used to teach a self defence class, one section was on groundwork and I would show a basic technique from guard. Many women would say "Ewww....I don't want to roll around on the ground with another woman." and giggle. To which I would reply "Where do you think your rapist is trying to get you? What is he trying to do to you? He's trying to pin you on the ground while he gets between your legs and violently enters your body!" It's the height of stupidity to think to yourself as you are being attacked "Man, I wish I wasn't so squeamish in those self defence classes." Grow up.

I quit teaching these classes because generally, i feel they give women a false sense of security, the instructors themselves are in effect preying on these women, but for financial gain. The height of this was the Tae-Bo craze. I'm sure it's a great workout, but when the ads have women saying they feel like they can really defend themselves after kicking and punching in the air for 30 minutes a day, theyare selling a false sense of security that WILL get some woman hurt.

Thoughts? Get the barbeque ready........flame away!

:woo: :rolleyes:

[LilBunnyRabbit]

We run classes like that. Generally the techniques taught consist of pull his groin off, claw his eyes out, stamp through his foot with the high heels which if you were sensible you wouldn't be wearing because you'd have been able to run away but because you are wearing you may as well use, hit him in the throat, that type of thing. Not nice stuff to be on the receiving end of, even in practice.

[Melanie]

Originally posted by mmafiter

First off I think you have to tell women that despite all the feminist rhetoric, they ARE generally the weaker sex, physically. Now, usually women get pissed off, but if your going to try and defend yourself, the politically correct answer isn't going to cut it. Women are generally physically weaker, it's the truth so you might as well be honest and spend your time accordingly, not learning techniques that require you to overpower your opponent.

#
Yep. I'd agree with that. We don't normally have the same physical strength.

Keep it simple. I can't believe some of the flashy or unrealistic crap I see these guys trying to teach these women! Pressure points?!:rolleyes:

#
Hmmm. Each to their own. I have no idea what I would do in a fight myself, I have managed to stay away from them so far. But its nice to know that if I can at least wriggle free a finger and its not near their eyes or their groin...I may know some where else to put it and a get a release/distraction.

Get serious. When I used to teach a self defence class, one section was on groundwork and I would show a basic technique from guard. Many women would say "Ewww....I don't want to roll around on the ground with another woman." and giggle. To which I would reply "Where do you think your rapist is trying to get you? What is he trying to do to you? He's trying to pin you on the ground while he gets between your legs and violently enters your body!" It's the height of stupidity to think to yourself as you are being attacked "Man, I wish I wasn't so squeamish in those self defence classes." Grow up.

#
I'm 28...does that make me grown up? I have to admit rolling on the floor with men and women is not my first option, but hey, I want to learn to defend myself. Its not because I am worried about my Gi getting dirty either. I guess that as I am so passionate about learning my MA I want to be able to have the same opportunitites to learn as the rest of the class - which I realise is mostly men. But in the dojo...it's just bodies and always has been.

I quit teaching these classes because generally, i feel they give women a false sense of security, the instructors themselves are in effect preying on these women, but for financial gain. The height of this was the Tae-Bo craze. I'm sure it's a great workout, but when the ads have women saying they feel like they can really defend themselves after kicking and punching in the air for 30 minutes a day, theyare selling a false sense of security that WILL get some woman hurt.

#
What a pity you felt you had to quit teaching womens self defence. You sound like a very thorough and professional Instructor and its the loss of the potential students that you're not out there. Yep. Heard similar stories on various forums too. Its very sad that its always the minority that makes the name for the majority...but alas it is true.

Thoughts? Get the barbeque ready........flame away!

:D

:woo: :rolleyes:

[ladyhawk]

I agree about men be physically stronger.

Teach the average person self defense using the K.I.S.S. method...Keep It Simple Stupid or as someone recently replied to that statement in another post Keep It Savagely Simple.

The average woman needs to learm simple practical techniques that will be easily remembered in a high stress situation. Fancy moves aren't going
to save their butts if they can't remember the mechanics of them.

In the dojo women are partnered with men so you might as well get over your shyness. I have no problem having a guy straddling my hips while I'm learning how to get him off of me and believe me they don't make it easy because your attacker is not going to make it easy. It doesn't bother me
to pull a man's hand closer to my chest so a technique will be more effective. These things become natural after awhile. I don't know, maybe
we become desensitize in training....but there was that time a guy took off his gi top to do sanchin kata in competition, Oh my, that got my attention. Oppps! Sorry, my mind wandered. OK, not completely desensitize. Anyway Martial Arts and Self Defense Training is physical so get over it.
I'm not sure I understand your reasoning for quitting teaching women's defense classes.

[Freeform]

I've help one of my instructors with womens self defence classes a couple of times and the key I feel is getting them to just be able to be aggressive! Mmafiter, your comments about squeamishness are well founded. Normally we lose about half the class in the first 2 weeks because people are expecting to come into a nice controlled envirnoment where everybodies friendly, WRONG! The first class is normally just a sit down chat with the class telling them what to expect, that self protection is 90% mental. They come to the class the next week and theres guys like me set to tear them apart (not really) but we have to make them believe (as part of Goshin Do we do controlled aggression training which comes in handy in these classes). Alot of the class don't like the intensity of the class and leave (go down the road to 'the other guy' who teaches women to kick men in the head!).

You have to be prepared for the aggression, cause if you loose the initative your ****ed!

Thanx

[mmafiter]

Originally posted by Freeform
You have to be prepared for the aggression, cause if you loose the initative your ****ed!

Thanx

Very good, I agree!

I guess I forgot to explain why I quit teaching women's self defence classes. Mainly, because I was part of an organization that had a set way of teaching and I didn't agree with them. Unrealistic movements and a false sense of confidence......I couldn't bring myself to fool these women. Then I went on to teach women on my own, and found thier "girly" attitudes and lack of interest frustrating.

Funny story, I was teaching a womens self defence class and everything is going along great. People were asking questions (which I love), and I was patiently answering them to the best of my ability. Unforunately there was one woman who kept asking silly nonsense questions such as; "What if I'm wearing pantyhose? What if I'm wearing high heels?" etc.

Finally I was getting tired of these type of questions and when she asked, "What if I'm wearing a short tight skirt?" I replied "You know what you do? You hike that skirt up, kick off your high heel shoes and run your ass off! Who cares if everyone and thier brother sees your fat ass flapping in the breeze, get tough and survive or be a nice girl and get assaulted."

The whole class was looking at me and they were in shock. I had to do some quick explaining to get myself out of that one.:D

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Generally we'll start off with the class being nice and controlled, letting them get the hang of techniques without panicking, and then as lessons go by bring in the agression, when they feel ready to cope with it. It means we don't throw them in at the deep end, so more stay around and learn how to handle it, its just slower, and doesn't scare people off in the first class.

[Melanie]

Originally posted by mmafiter

Finally I was getting tired of these type of questions and when she asked, "What if I'm wearing a short tight skirt?" I replied "You know what you do? You hike that skirt up, kick off your high heel shoes and run your ass off! Who cares if everyone and thier brother sees your fat ass flapping in the breeze, get tough and survive or be a nice girl and get assaulted."

The whole class was looking at me and they were in shock. I had to do some quick explaining to get myself out of that one.:D

I can see why you think all women have this girly attitude after that example. Maybe the class just wasn't right for the woman? I have to admit if I heard you say that to her, I would have cheered you on. (Maybe I am insensitive as well as desensitised?)

A lot of MEN and WOMEN think they are going to martial arts to come out like Jackie Chan and Jet Li. They seem to think that all it requires is buying the clothing and attending a couple of classes and they know all they need to know. I realise I have only been doing training for 2 years now - but in that two years, I have trained and trained. I have worked maybe even a little bit harder than my male counterparts because I feel I have to prove something to myself (I dunno, maybe I have). I don't think I am let off lightly or treated any different from anyone else in the class. If I was - I would leave. Maybe me and ladyhawke are unusual, but the other women in my class can spar and work out just as hard as the men do so far. Anyway...enough of my rant, I think I have made my point?

[fluffydoc]

I agree with Melanie's point. It made me wonder if women that will put the effort in and take it seriously train as martial artists whereas "girly" girls looking for a quick answer go to women's self defense? Having never been to a women's self defense class I'm not placed to comment. Anyone got any thoughts on that?

[LilBunnyRabbit]

I did a self-defense course at school, mainly because the other options were (shudder) football or tennis, but me and a friend were the only two guys on the course. Anyway the instructor took everyone through various grips, releases, defenses and so on. At this time I'd been studying CKD for a few years, and he seemed to be saying stuff that would look really good when you were trying it with your friends, but wouldn't work against someone who really wanted to hurt you. Later on in the course about half of the girls started to complain along similar lines to those I was thinking on. Apparently they'd had the sense to go home and get their older brothers to put them in these grips. Older brothers are vicious (I should know, I am one) and the stuff they had been taught simply didn't work. The instructor hummed and hahhed a bit and then tried to brush over the issue and move on to techniques.

Those girls who went home to practice on their own time were looking for a geniune defense course, and they were given a load of rubbish. This was finally decided on the last day of the course. The instructor wanted everyone to run through a roleplay with him, walking down an alley and he'd throw in a random attack of some kind. Having a reputation as being the victim of the school I was kind of looking forward to this, since I'd have a chance to correct that, but anyway. The roleplaying started, and he began the attacks with everyone watching. A few of the girls who'd complained earlier in the course had spoken to me and asked about what I'd been taught for these same attacks, so I showed them. Most of the girls used his defenses and while they looked good it was fairly clear that he was allowing them to throw him off. When it came to the girls who'd asked me though (I don't want to claim credit at all in this, I simply passed on some of the basic stuff I was taught) he seemed suprised that they were able to escape. He seemed to be more aggressive against those who'd complained earlier in the course.

Anyway, finally it got to my turn. The guy seemed to have something against boys in his classes so he really went in for the attack, clamping into a lapel grab and hoisting me off the floor. Forgetting everything he'd taught me (which was to reach up under the arms and push at a point just above the elbow) I reverted to my original training. Pull up both legs fast, kick down, inwards punch as soon as you hit the floor and get away.

This guy, who'd been teaching all of this people 'self-defense' folded with one punch from a fifteen year old kid. He hadn't seen it coming, hadn't even tried to defend against it. It could be argued that he didn't expect it but anyway, if he was so bad at defending himself what on earth was he doing teaching this course?

I think there's a point in there somewhere, either way what I'm trying to say is that not only 'girly girls' go to self defense courses, some do really want to learn, but one bad experience can put them off for life. None of those girls expressed any interest in doing any sort of advanced course taught by the same instructor, or even by another instructor except for four, one who'd complained and the three who'd asked me about alternate defenses, and they said that they'd only do the course if they could have a different instructor and demanded mine.

[waya]

In women's self defense classes I have seen, it's usually variations of more traditional techniques that the instructor knows. Also, most instructors in those classes don't cover any information outside of those techniques. I generally cover the different date rape drugs, what to do if you lose the fight and actually are raped (let's face it, the possibility does exist), how to make sure there is evidence on their body (skin under nails, etc.) as well as simple, more effective techniques. Yes, it takes a couple weeks to cover it all, but I don't like to miss anything that could be important.

Rob

[Freeform]

Not enough classes cover the whole rape scenario. We do and I will say it does make me feel uncomfortable doing it as I'mm usually one of the 'rapists' and have to make it as real as possible (see my previous post) which is where I get really uncomfortable. But (and yes I must be slightly twisted) its a great feeling when one of your students shows that real 'evil' aggression they'll need to survive and rip your ears off and smack your head into the wall!

I'll sure most of you will agree that the real point to 'proper' courses is to instill confidence and some common sense (keep away from thoses side streets where your on your own!), I'm not gonna say that confidence will mean your never attacked but theres more chance if you look like a victim!

Thanx

[Thomas Vince]

WHAT A GGOD TOPIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here is my favorite phrase.

"I just want to learn a few moves to protect my self."

Christ if were that simple I just wasted 20 years of my life!

I have seen some really terrible Women Self Defense classes! I even heard a Man in a class one time say to women : "A Man will more than likely NOT hit a woman." WHAT???? If he is a real predator he will knock the **** out of ya!

Women need to get real about self defense and realise that it is the awareness and preparation in defense of vulnerability that is 90% of thier self defense.

How many times have you seen someone in the car the window rolled down and the pocket calculater or pager or notepad is out and they are writing and totally unaware of their surroundings, AAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Stupid People!
But that is the very we exist as Instructors isn't it? May ignorance flourish so that we can educate!
:D

[alienladd]

I love it! :D

Straight guys! Straight girls!
Straight to the point!

:D :D :D :D

[Freeform]

So Thomas earns his crust by taking stupid peoples money!?!? ;)

Awareness is king! If your serious about protecting yourself you have to be aware of your surroundings. And what makes me sick is the amount of people who walk the streets staring at their feet WHATS THAT ALL ABOUT!!!! Your feet'll always be there, unless you don't notice the madman with the machette sneeking up behind you to cut them off!

If people are going to take self defence (or rather self protection) seriously they have to make it part of their life!

Thanx

[fluffydoc]

I live most of my life in trainers or lace-ups/boots but occasionally have to wear "nice" shoes for a posh night out. Any other women (or cross-dressing men) feel uncomfortable doing this?

[ladyhawk]

LOL! Sneakers, hiking boots and bare feet are what I'm comfortable in.

I was in a business meeting a few weeks ago. Had on what would be considered a casual, dressy skirt and top. I took off my shoes while we were at the table discussing a project. We took a break and I was out the door and half way down the hall before I realize I was bare foot.

[Freeform]

High heels are a great weapon, as I was once asked

"Whats gonna hurt you more? If I hit you in the temple with my fist, or with the heel of this!"

I've had some twisted, cross-dressing... ah I mean cross-training, Instructors!

[Chazz]

Question to the teachers of Women's self defence:
What techniques do you think work best and should teach?

Question to the ladies who may be interested in the classes?
What situations can you think of that you may end up in that you would want an instructor to teach?

[Thomas Vince]

A right punch, hooking type
a left punch, hooking type
a front choke one hand and two hand
wrists grabs
shoulder grabs
shoulder and wrist comb grabs
rear bear hug
rear one arm hug and one hand over the mouth
rear one arm choke and one hand over the mouth
I feel basics shouls include elbows, knees and the heel of the palm strikes. Women tend to have smaller wrists and takes to much time to teach a punch properly, not all women but most will hurt the wrist.

Choke techniques up against a wall and still another where there is nothing behind her.

[Freeform]

Add some ground escapes to Thomas's list and thats what we normally teach. Along with the common sense stuff (walking the streets at night, toilets in pubs, etc...)

[mmafiter]

Originally posted by Freeform
Add some ground escapes to Thomas's list and thats what we normally teach. Along with the common sense stuff (walking the streets at night, toilets in pubs, etc...)

Certainly seems thorough. I totally agree that many instructors neglect the ground. I taught my wife how to apply armbar from guard, because when you think about it, the goal of the rapist is to get between the woman's legs and many times they will hold onto the woman in a choking manner with one hand while the other hand takes off her clothes, etc. I've taught her to swivel around the choking arm and apply extreme pressure on the elbow and don't let go until it breaks.:D

[waya]

I work with most of the techniques listed, or a variation of them. Also I cover some of the more nasty things such as eye gouging, groin strikes, kicks into the inside of the ankle (a simple outward stomp there hurts), Strikes with the thumb into the larynx or cartoid artery... Things anyone can learn quickly that are extremely painful and effective. I know the liability on teaching this could hurt, but I still feel it is something worth them learning. Frankly, the attacker is trying to seriously hurt, if not kill, them. I like to put things on a more equal level of reaction.

Rob

[Chazz]

Ok ladies your turn as well *LOL*

Question to the ladies who may be interested in the classes?
What situations can you think of that you may end up in that you would want an instructor to teach?

[ladyhawk]

Here's an extreme question.

We have tried this scenario and I was wondering what others thought.

It's a hostage situation and the gunman has their
arm around you pressing you against their side, the gun is pointed at your head. What do you do?

I've been told if you can possibly get the attention of the police or whoever is attempting to defuse this situation and somehow non-verbally communicate your intentions and then just sit down. They probably won't be able to hold you up with one arm and concentrate on what's going on at the same time and will let go. This gets you out of the line of fire.

[mmafiter]

Geez, there are alot of variables to consider with that scenario ladyhawk, ie is it a revolver or pistol, what's the gunman's emotional state?, etc.

I don't think I'd trust a non-verbal communication arrangement between myself and the police, too much room for error.

We had a similar scenario happen at work; a inmate was holding a food stewart by knifepoint and making little cuts on his neck. One officer kept talking to him while another quickly grabbed his knife hand and pulled, then we tackled him. The hostage escaped with minor injuries.

I think I'd just wait to see what the police were going to do, unless the gunman was escalating and I thought he was about to shoot me, then what the hell, try something.

[ladyhawk]

Yes, you're right it was a bit generalized.

I guess we can always use the line out of the movie Speed..."Shoot the hostage."

[Thomas Vince]

Leave it to Ladyhawk to express the extreme,
"Here's an extreme question.

We have tried this scenario and I was wondering what others thought.

It's a hostage situation and the gunman has their arm around you pressing you against their side, the gun is pointed at your head. What do you do?
I've been told if you can possibly get the attention of the police or whoever is attempting to defuse this situation and somehow non-verbally communicate your intentions and then just sit down. They probably won't be able to hold you
up with one arm and concentrate on what's going on at the same time and will let go. This gets you out of the line of fire."

Huh? Don't ever go to a bank use the drive through.
If I fall to the ground he could shoot me as I lay there?
Hope there is a sniper active and well practiced?

[ladyhawk]

I was kind of thinking on the idea that guns are
already pointed at the person who has a gun pointed at the hostage. Can't really make a call on how someone in this situation will react but I was thinking he wouldn't be bothered with the hostage because his focus would be on everyone else.

The Extreme Ladyhawk

[Thomas Vince]

I think that is a good idea, just falling the person more than likely could not hold you up, but my first thought is he would probably drop down with you, bend his knees try to hold on to you.
I was told never go anywhere with someone who ahs a gun make them shoot you right there and hopefully they get caught. If you leave with them they may take into seclusion and kill you without anyone seeing it. This might be an effective strategy in a hostage situation since the criminal needs you alive in order to escape.

One thing, if you are ever in a hostage situations or even an armed robbery, if they attempt to take you into the back rooms they are going to shoot you and kill you so you need to make a move before they get you back there, just a thought.

Parker Kenpo has a few gun disarming techniques and I have managed to learn a few more from the US Marshals and other agencies and there may be ways to effectively disarm the criminal in the hostage situation. There are many times where the criminal might make himself or herself vulnerable to to your movements.

[Jim]

Why has this thread gone so long without any further comment?

Too bad I didn't notice it before...

I go through a session of 'hostage negotiation' with students every now and then. My previous life training is a little different than many others in that I was taught how to be the terrorist in control.

There are three basic variables; the hostage, the terrorist and the negotiator. When it comes down to it, the hostage has the most power because without their co-operation there is no continuing situation.

Something worth considering when you're teaching self protection/defence training in a woman's anti-rape scenario. Also very worthwhile is discussing what happens if/when you are raped and how to get through all of that emotional baggage that you may carry around for the rest of your life.

There was a huge upsurge in woman's self defence '3 week courses' during the late 80's and early 90's in this country. Since Sept 11 the same old trash has come out again. I've been against these short courses all the time and been accused of making the 'helpless' feel hopeless.

IMO the reality is that if you're up against an attacker who has done this before (odds are he would have unless he knows you already) the violence that he will cause you if you fight back ineffectively will be a lot worse than if you didn't fight back at all.

Any other comments?

[USHY]

Originally posted by ladyhawk
I was kind of thinking on the idea that guns are
already pointed at the person who has a gun pointed at the hostage. Can't really make a call on how someone in this situation will react but I was thinking he wouldn't be bothered with the hostage because his focus would be on everyone else.

The Extreme Ladyhawk

Dont know, I have some experance with guns and with similar extream situations... I guess if you preform any kind of fast and unexpected move the gunman might shoot you by reflex...
Think the better idea is waiting till the gun isn´t pointed at you anymore, so your chances are bigger

[KickChick]

Originally posted by chazz982001
Ok ladies your turn as well *LOL*

Question to the ladies who may be interested in the classes?
What situations can you think of that you may end up in that you would want an instructor to teach?

Sexual assault scenarios ....situations where an attacker has you pinned down, hitting you in the face, threatening to kill you and ripping your clothes off as he prepares to penetrate you or holding a knife to your throat while forcing you into oral copulation ... how are those two for starters.???

In my experience teaching a free seminar our school offered last month, many of the were women older, overweight, or very young, and introspective. We even had a few women with emotional and health issues to consider.

All of these women were looking for and needed a system of self defense that they could learn effortlessly and retain once they encounter these "situations" ... a method that would work for all of them.
Of course it is a given that you teach them avoidance and evasion ...and what to do when an attackers grabs your wrists or grabs you from behind.... but most importantly, self defense instruction should IMO, cut to the chase -- meaning, instruct women on how to escape the worst position they may find themselves involved in so that all of the other scenarios would be easier to handle by comparison.

Also, since most female attack situations involve the attacker beinghigh on something... techniques taught should focus less on pain compliance and more on controling their center line while learning to physically move the attacker off of you or causing damage to the joints rendering him immobile.

[USHY]

As you might know from my first post, I´m very interested in women self defence since about two month... the greatest poblem is that different women will be attacked in differend ways, teens might be attacked at their way home from party,maybe even at the party, old women more often will be traped by somebody at I don´t realy know how to express that but I think the situations might be different so the stuff thay aer thought should be different too ( it is not possible that a 16b years old girl wears comfortible clothes at the club, but a 50 years old women might do beeng out with the dog or something)

[Marku]

Women may not be as strong as men physicaly. but mentally they can be as tough as us ^_^

[Saz]

This men vs girls debate's been going on in Chat a few times. Men are physically stronger than women, but I don't see any reason why with good training and decidcation, a women can't be as good at defending herself as a man.

I've never been to a womens self defence class, and I'll never go. I have an image of it being full of 20-something girl who want to learn a "bit of karate stuff" to keep themselves safe, with an instructor who says things like "ahh, but you attacked me wrong." Maybe I'm wrong, but very few womens self defence classes are worth it. The one run in my local area is run by a 50 year old 4th kyu in karate who couldn't punch his way out of a wet paper bag. My friend when to his class and I watched. It consisted of him showing off what a great martial artist he was on how superior he was to everyone else.

[Jim]

I've never been to a womens self defence class, and I'll never go. I have an image of it being full of 20-something girl who want to learn a "bit of karate stuff" to keep themselves safe, with an instructor who says things like "ahh, but you attacked me wrong."
Sarah, that's exactly why you SHOULD go. I've been wanting to go to these classes for years just on the hope that I can be proven wrong, but I'd be accused of 'Dojo busting' at the least so I've refrained.

[Saz]

I wouldn't lower myself :D If there was ever a decent one, I might go. The guy at that place told my friend that if a man wanted to beat her up, he could do it no matter how determined she was. If he thinks that, why is he running the class.

Also, why are all these things run by men?

[Jim]

The majority of MAists are male.

[Saz]

Can't argue with that...

I just think maybe it would be more effective if the class was taken by a women. Some of the sqeamish-ness might go then too, who knows. Just a thought

[KickChick]

I agree that more SD classes should be taught by women (that is why I do).

Our self defenses classes were run by our school owner and master instructor who is male and his wife and myself. Plus we encouraged all of the black belt women at the school to attend to help out each of the women or to be their partner.

What the male instructor was actually good for was being our punching bag and our "agressor"! He would instigate the women trying to evoke anger while holding target shield. When they would hear..."Aw c'mon is that the best you got??? (among other choice remarks!)
You need to be able to have a male in the class in order to work your body mechanics against the opposite sex... to throw him off of you.

By end of class when he was in full targeted armor the women went wild!! What a sight to behold!

[teacher]

Tere was a really good book on this called I think Punchbag by Robert llywellyn ( suspect spelling ) he's the guy that was in Red Dwarf someone help me out. A bouncer ends up as a human punchbag for a womens self defence group. A lot of good stuff in in and funny too.

[Rob_InDaUk]

Most teachers can spell...:p

Rob

[teacher]

I'm more a numbers kinda guy and its a Welsh name. Do you know the guys name he also presents Scrapheap Challenge the UK version.

[teacher]

Ha I found it Robert Llewellyn was the author. A damn good book raises a lot of issues on Womens Self Defence and male female power struggles.

[KickChick]

Thanks for the recommendation teach! .... I plan on checking it out

here is a synopsis and more info on the book by Robert Llewellyn, Punchbag (http://www.llew.co.uk/books/punchbag/)

I like that quotation .... "As they say in women’s self defence, the way out is through."

[teacher]

Kickchick I just ordered myself a new copy. Like all the best books it disappeared to friends.

[ladyhawk]

Originally posted by USHY
Dont know, I have some experance with guns and with similar extream situations... I guess if you preform any kind of fast and unexpected move the gunman might shoot you by reflex...
Think the better idea is waiting till the gun isn´t pointed at you anymore, so your chances are bigger

Hello Ushy,

Reflex, you make a good point.

If what you perceived as an opportunity arose,
would you act upon it or remain passive because
that same reflex might cause the gunman to shoot
someone else.

I guess like everything else. it takes an evaluation
of the situation and your environment and then you
make your judgement call.

[RJ_Bushido]

mmafiter i do agree woman are the weaker sex, i mean there are strong women out there, don't get me wrong.

I am just speaking about ME. I am trying so hard to sparr and things, and of course the men come along and i haven't got a chance, the self defense we learn personally i can't see me using it if i got attacked in the street, the first thing i would do which i am not supposed to do is panic. i Sleep with my Samurai swords under my bed, but if someone were actually to break in, i think i would be weak

Just my opinion

[Disciple]

I am a seventeen year old who has been practicing Martial Arts for 10 years now... Off all the reading and seeing I have done... I have told people, my friends mainly, one major bit of self-defense, go for the eyes. I mean, that is the best thing I think anyone can do, if you blind your opponent, or pres hard ehough for temporary blinding, you cmay very well be able to run....

Ok, moving on, I can think of a number of things that women can do with frontal assualts that are practical and easy that they could do physically. number one: Run..scream...gouge the eyes (2 lbs of pressure to pop one[the smae amount to cruch one testical ball]) Rip off the ear (7 lbs of pressure), Rip off the lip (9 lbs or presure). Scratch like no tomorrow, think of one or two things to do if they are one hand choked, if in somehting like the gaurd position, bite, kick, shin scrapping with the edge of a shoe, stomping the instep and big toe....

Now, (I am honestly asking here) what can women do if they are assaulted by a larger man with extended reach? If she is being held at the throat with one or two hands... what can she do?

Here is the big one: If she is attacked from behind... I can only see one thing, if she can stomp down and scrap the instep.... but it is only temp and really may not affect all people... what about those completely terrible situations? like subway rapes....so, what CAN a woman do when attacked from behind and also what if thier arms are secured behind them during this? Is this one of those situations where they can't do anything(I have hard times believing where one is that completely helpless, I just figure there is SOMETHING they can try, I don't know everything, so I figure someone else may have the solution I seek, so this is why I am seeking informatoin.)

[shuyun3]

i teach my girl not to try to overpower me because it won't work (though i'm beginning to doubt that her right hook is improving hehe) i tell her to work with me until i lose my guardedness (she does that well too).

I don't tell her to strike the groin I tell her to grab and squeeze and shake it like hell. i gave her a fountain pen as a concealed weapon and most of all i taught her to bite.

i tell her that it's al fair game in a street fight and that grab or improvise a weapon when ever possible. she needs more work but we held out our own together through a mugging. now hows that for bonding.

[ladyhawk]

Hello Disciple,

Going for the eyes is a common technique but nowadays people frequently wear glasses and sunglasses so fingers in the throat
works as an alternative.

A good hard pinch is often effective in getting someone to release you but be ready to follow thru with another technique.

[andycartland]

I'm not sure theres an awfull lot of point to womens self defense classes. People who attend tend to be looking for a quick fix. When they don't get it they soon move on. I really think that to make any fighting art worth while you have to be committed. I think that often the people who attend these are those who don't have time or wont commit to a particular style of martial art. To get good at anything takes commitment. I can see arguements for and against teaching limited techniques. I suppose if people want to learn though- they have every right.

[Kwajman]

We teach to go for the eyes, nose, ears, throat, groin. If you try to kick the groin and back off, the attacker is p***ed off. If you try to grab it and hold on, it WILL get his attention and free his hands to try to go after yours. There is the opportunity. For some reason, guys get a little touchy when someones trying to rip off their nads....

[MsDwee]

Originally posted by andycartland
People who attend tend to be looking for a quick fix.

That's not a bad thing in itself, for pure self-defence. If a woman wants to learn a few techniques to make herself feel safer and more confident, that's great. She shouldn't have to commit to a long series of classes - most women will realise that to be fully protected against any situation would take a long time, but a few classes on how to avoid dangerous situations or how to reduce your chances of being attacked won't hurt.

Besides, surely the chances of needing to use the techniques taught are small - men are more at risk of being attacked, at least in the street, than women are.

Uh, not quite sure what my point was. Think it was along the lines of some training is better than none.

[KickChick]

Originally posted by MsDwee
Uh, not quite sure what my point was. Think it was along the lines of some training is better than none.

Thats absolutely true!

It is estimated that 3 out of 4 people who receive proper SD training will successfully deter crime. So why wouldn't "anyone" put the odds in their favor.
A good womens SD course will give them confidence, accuracy and a first-hand glimpse of their own (often surprising) physical power. More importantly, it is the best way to break through the mental barriers that limit us and separate us from our inner agressiveness.

[andycartland]

Yeah those are fair points.

[WingChun Lawyer]

Originally posted by Disciple
I am a seventeen year old who has been practicing Martial Arts for 10 years now... Off all the reading and seeing I have done... I have told people, my friends mainly, one major bit of self-defense, go for the eyes. I mean, that is the best thing I think anyone can do, if you blind your opponent, or pres hard ehough for temporary blinding, you cmay very well be able to run....


I disagree. If you can´t hit a target as big as his face with a weapon as big as your hand, there is no way you can hit a target as small as his eyes with a weapon as small as your fingers: also, even if you hit the rapist is probably not down, just furious - and close enough to ground and pound you to death, even with a scratch in his eyes.

Hitting the eyes is never a precise technique, and it is unreliable as hell.

Although I agree that groundfighting is essential in a rape situation (of course), I am a firm believer in the benefits of striking training. If I wanted to rape someone, my first move would be to throw a couple of punches at the victim´s face to stun her, and then I would throw her to the ground.

Thoughts?

[KickChick]

Yes, I too am not keen on using eye attacks unless you are good at gouging.... "any one want to practice with me??" See??

The most common reaction of the attacker is to simply duck their head and turn away. There is also the common reaction of the where he easily reaches up and captures your wrists. The high failure rate is probably due to the fact the most of the eye attacks taught in most SD classes are direct and frontal in nature. Most attackers would be able to recognize and avoid them.
The only time an eye gouge is successful is when the attacker doesn't see it coming as when you are bringing your hands from outside his field of vision.

[Matt_Bernius]

Originally posted by WingChun Lawyer
I disagree. If you can´t hit a target as big as his face with a weapon as big as your hand, there is no way you can hit a target as small as his eyes with a weapon as small as your fingers: also, even if you hit the rapist is probably not down, just furious - and close enough to ground and pound you to death, even with a scratch in his eyes. Yeah I think the eye gouge is another slef defense myth in the context of executing it outside of a grappling scenario. Also, on a finger jab like that you risk breaking fingers in the eye socket or on the face/forehead (especially becuase most people don't train/understand finger striking). A facial rake can be just as effective. Plus if you're in range to rake, you can also convert it into an elbow and get two strikes for the price of one. It's pretty easy to scratch someone's cornea and that can be just as debilhitating as an eye gouge (plus it has less long term effects which help from a court of law point of view).

Originally posted by WingChun Lawyer
Although I agree that groundfighting is essential in a rape situation (of course), I am a firm believer in the benefits of striking training. If I wanted to rape someone, my first move would be to throw a couple of punches at the victim´s face to stun her, and then I would throw her to the ground.Groundfighting yes. Grappling, not so much. One needs to udnerstand that. However it's far more important to train striking in the context of a ground fight rather than a more BJJ approach. And it should be taught that the function of striking on the ground is to facilitate getting up as quickly as possible. Note that in this type of scenario, eye gouges become more of an option. Frst ofa ll becuase as a victem you are in a much more procarious position. Two is that it's much easier to feel around the face and execute the gouge when it's not in a striking context.

- Matt

[grimel]

Originally posted by ladyhawk
Hello Disciple,

Going for the eyes is a common technique but nowadays people frequently wear glasses and sunglasses so fingers in the throat
works as an alternative.

Or being the lazy person I am, chin jab (tiger claw) and slide the fingers up the face (under the glasses) into the eyes (1 knuckle deep min). Major advantages over traditional eye gouge: 1) chin jab gets a bit of "stun" attention; 2) works with or without glasses; 3) we (people) won't see the fingers coming until they are in the eye; 4) natural jerking of the head back puts the gougee in postion for a neck twist takedown.

[ladyhawk]

Hello grimel,
If you are going to go thru all the trouble of getting to the eyes then you might as well target the exposed throat.

[marco]

Thomas and MMAFiter have it spot on I reckon. It's all about aggression and violence, it's a whole new ball game on the street.

Never mind the pressure stuff and wrist locks....that's fantasy world. Teaching this stuff would make your hair stand on end as every woman has a different attitude and very few are prepared to get realistic with this subject.

Some of them even burst out crying if the instructor comes over a little aggressive........jeez

[sakura]

Women are generally physically weaker, keep it simple. I can't believe some of the flashy or unrealistic crap I see these guys trying to teach these women! Pressure points?!

The Tae-Bo craze. I'm sure it's a great workout, but when the ads have women saying they feel like they can really defend themselves after kicking and punching in the air for 30 minutes a day, theyare selling a false sense of security that WILL get some woman hurt.

Good advice and I TOTALLY agree with you! I am a woman and I am physically weaker than a lot of the men that I teach & train with. I have had guys built like a brick outhouse in my lesson who try to undermine me by acting awkward and using their physical weight and size when demonstrating a technique on them, only to prove them wrong by adapting the technique to suit my physical size and ability (I usually say "if at first you can't succeed - cheat!").

I have since gained the respect of these tough guys who know I mean business and I'm not a pushover. The only thing I can say in a self defence point is that you can use their physical size against them and no matter what size or sex the attacker is, everyone has weak or tender points to attack - even if it gives you just a split second to make an escape.

It's a shame you have given up teaching, you seem to have a good understanding. Women need the confidence to do something when attacked not just stand there and be a victim. It seems a lot of the good self defence instructors have left because of the commercial gits who talk bull!!

[hedgehogey]

Eye gouging, throat striking, WAY TO GET WOMEN KILLED.

God this stuff disgusts me.

You have no proof of it working. A woman would be much better off in an MMA school if she wanted to learn self defense than any form of TMA or RBSD.

Why? Because in vale tudo a woman gets to feel a man's strength for real. No acting or pretending, he's really trying to hit her and wrestle her down. If a woman can tap out a man there's a damn good chance she can beat him.

At least in vale tudo we've seen smaller men beat up much larger men with our techniques, analogous to a woman beating up an average sized man.

[sakura]

Eye gouging, throat striking, WAY TO GET WOMEN KILLED. God this stuff disgusts me.

You have no proof of it working. A woman would be much better off in an MMA school if she wanted to learn self defense than any form of TMA or RBSD.

Why? Because in vale tudo a woman gets to feel a man's strength for real. No acting or pretending, he's really trying to hit her and wrestle her down. If a woman can tap out a man there's a damn good chance she can beat him.

At least in vale tudo we've seen smaller men beat up much larger men with our techniques, analogous to a woman beating up an average sized man.

Yes I have proof of it working - it has happened to me and worked!!

Yes I train in MA I teach womens self defence and I am a woman and I put the women I teach through a semi realistic scenario under controlled conditions where they have to fight or they do not get free and I explain to them before and after what will happen for real if they do not fight back!! Shock tactics I know but all students are informed that they may not like all aspects but one day it might just save their life!! I've had women and men cry in my lesson because of the mixed emotions they go through just to get out and survive!!

OK Vale Tudo may be good for getting out of it when you're already on the floor, but the last thing you need when you are a woman is to get into that situation in the first place!!!

GET REAL!!

[hedgehogey]

I'm sorry but you seem to have a misconception about Vale Tudo. Vale tudo means anything goes and covers the freestanding (kickboxing) clinch and ground ranges. This is because Vale Tudo competition is "anything goes".

In addition the ground has been proven to be the place where technique matters more than strength. Quite a bit MORE than standing, where strength and reflexes are more important.
Does this mean you always go to the ground in a OMG STR33T Situation? No, that depends on the situation. But it is the one place where technique really DOES overcome strength.

Is your sparring full contact as in when the attacker is attacking he's not complying with the technique and is really trying to hit/wrestle the defender?

[sakura]

I'm sorry but you seem to have a misconception about Vale Tudo. Vale tudo means anything goes and covers the freestanding (kickboxing) clinch and ground ranges.

Is your sparring full contact as in when the attacker is attacking he's not complying with the technique and is really trying to hit/wrestle the defender?

Apologies. The only time I've seen Vale Tudo has been with the emphasis of taking them to the ground, most of the time using an arm bar when on the ground. As with all martial arts it has its value or it would never survive!!

In a self defence point, the attacker is padded up and is attacking eg anti rape techniques where the defender will be in a situation where they will be attacked to the point where they end up in a rape scenario. The anti rape scenario is voluntary - we don't force people to participate but we encourage them to.

I try to teach (especially) women not to be afraid to hit people as a lot of the time you get a situation in class where they couldn't fight their way out of wet paper bag.

We don't practice this all the time as it can be detrimental to the training process as they become complacent and think "Oh if I fight for a bit, she'll let me off easy". All of the people who assist in these lessons are fully police checked and trained and the women are given a 'safe word' in case it gets too much for them. I'm terrible when I have to practice this!! I cry, scream, shout, and generally do whatever I can to escape, I've ended up an emotional wreck after one situation, wracked with guilt because I just flipped - it's a good job the attackers are fully padded up!!

[hedgehogey]

Are the attackers attempting to hit the defenders or wrestle them down? Not pretending to, trying their hardest.

Is the padding realistic? (no huge head or eyes, no tiny arms)

I don't mean to sound like a penisface but in women's SD the hard questions must be asked.

Anyway, the reason an armbar is done a lot in vale tudo is because it's easy to do.

Oh yeah, that reminds me. In vale tudo there is a position called the guard where one person is in between another's legs. The bottom person has the advantage and can attack with locks and chokes.
So what does that look like to you? Yep, rape attempt. Perfect for a "rape scenario".

If you've never seen vale tudo I would highly reccomend it. It is a testing ground for different styles to prove their techniques.

[sakura]

Are the attackers attempting to hit the defenders or wrestle them down? Not pretending to, trying their hardest. Is the padding realistic? (no huge head or eyes, no tiny arms)

I don't mean to sound like a penisface but in women's SD the hard questions must be asked.

Anyway, the reason an armbar is done a lot in vale tudo is because it's easy to do. Oh yeah, that reminds me. In vale tudo there is a position called the guard where one person is in between another's legs. The bottom person has the advantage and can attack with locks and chokes. So what does that look like to you? Yep, rape attempt. Perfect for a "rape scenario".

If you've never seen vale tudo I would highly reccomend it. It is a testing ground for different styles to prove their techniques.

A bit of both really, they know when to pull their punches (especially to the face and sensitive areas) sometimes we mark the padding so they know how many times they were hit etc (You can get blue 'chalk' knives that mark). It really depends on their age. The older ones teenage upwards get it more intense when they do have to fight and not just resist. I do volunteer work with local schools & community groups where I teach younger students - it is so important to have police check to prove you are legit and not a perv if you are going to teach this kind of stuff!

The padding does not cover the face and only occasionally we use a head guard!! how can you simulate realism unless your attacker comes dressed in padded gear??!! It is as minimal as possible to add realism, but padded enough so as not to seriously damage. My poor boyfriend volunteers for this job and has come home battered and bruised and calls it 'good body conditioning'!! LOL :D

It's good that you ask questions. Without asking questions how are we supposed to learn and progress? Two very important lessons my Instructor teaches; 1. Never be afraid to ask questions and 2. Never be afraid to admit that you do not know all of the answers.

We were supposed to be having a mixed martial arts lesson on groundfighting earlier this month but had to be cancelled. Stuff like JJ, Judo, Vale Tudo, BJJ as well as other stuff we've picked up from cross training. A couple of friends were supposed to be teaching stuff from Vale Tudo - I'll make sure they do 'the guard' as it sounds like a really good 'rape scenario' technique!! we try to make sure we do cross training to keep ourselves on guard, to widen our knowledge base and coz it's fun hitting new people with new found techniques and strikes- it gets boring hitting the same people all the time!! :D ;)

[Kenpo Kicker]

the techniques to get out of that position would be golden for women's self defense from jj or bjj (mount) .

[sakura]

The only problem we have is running self defence as non profit we ask for dontaions from the places we teach to help cover costs and we can't pay out huge sums of money to do this kind of training. Most of it comes out of my pocket and can be expensive to keep up that kind of training and learn it effectively.

I have to rely on people I know to volunteer and teach what they have learnt regardless of the level they have achieved as most instructors charge huge fees or will not teach at a cross training course due to conflict of interest or fear of losing their students!! :(

For example, I had the chance to learn groundfighting / BJJ from Royce Gracie within my own art but it cost too much. The travel was approx £75 each plus accomodation in London and it was £25.00 for about 2 hours training!! It wouldn't have been too bad if it was the weekend! :cry:

[migo]

Groundfighting yes. Grappling, not so much

And what kind of useful groundfighting doesn't involve grappling?