So you wants to study Silat?

[Orang Jawa]

Whilest in the USA, I spoke to many American silat students and many of them not even know or think that silat techniques or movements came from weapon system. IMHO, it we train silat without the understanding that any incoming attack is a sharp and pointee object with a speed and power, we cannot focus on our enemy, even though he is imaginary. We lose concept of distance, timing strategy, feeling and spirit.

Today silat students often wants a quick bit of training which will make him able to impress his friends. To a point, many martial skills have bent to accomodate this image. :rolleyes:

Silat is always cloud with mystery, a black magic, and myths. But I was also
so surprised to hear some of the "new" Pendekar or Maha Guru or Guru claimed that they posses all of those things. I also surprised that many of them not explaining the purpose of the technical details based on mechanics and logic. Some of them mixmatch the mechanics, logic and the wicthcraft if I may say that :)

Remember it is not the fact that your teacher (if you have one) is wrong about certain aspect of technique, it is probably the fact that he learned from a different person at a different time, and human nature, after all is itself variable. Silat is not a dogmatic skill of producing robot or ; it is free for certain amount of human interpretation.

If you intend to study silat properly you must find a teacher. They are not easy to find them and you must look hard. Don't just watch one but find as many as you can and then choose the one you believe in and are prepare to follow. I say this because many of young students will go to a teacher and still be full of their own ideas. It is not until you give up your ideas and concepts that your will trully start to learn from the teacher. If you believe the teacher to be a true teacher then give up your own ideas and learn.

If the true teacher is a true teacher he may not accept you as a student unless you can give some proof of sincerity. Why should he waste dedicated training on someone who will reward him by leaving, just as they are arousing a glimmer of hope? It would also be a waste of time and money for the student to go through such rigorous training and then leave.

In the Western world money, they say, speaks. Most people think that if a man is good it is measured by how much they pay for his services. If the pay, then they expect the teacher to come across with the goods, without themselves having to work hard. Sadly this practiced is happening in Indonesia or Asia too.

Let us suppose you have been accepted by your teacher and he begins to teach you. You will probably expect it to be easy sailing....you must be joking! If you find you are not suffering, not being kept constantly on your toes, and not given sharp lessons in awareness then I would begin to wonder about your choice. In the Western world used the 'lets do something at the evening institute' attitude. They expec entertaiment and enjoyment. That sort of thing is fine, but martial skill is also dicipline. It is the frugal rigidity of the training that forges the individual, it is a different concept.
Just my worthless opinion'
Tristan

[Steve Perry]

Let us suppose you have been accepted by your teacher and he begins to teach you. You will probably expect it to be easy sailing....you must be joking! If you find you are not suffering, not being kept constantly on your toes, and not given sharp lessons in awareness then I would begin to wonder about your choice. In the Western world used the 'lets do something at the evening institute' attitude. They expec entertaiment and enjoyment. That sort of thing is fine, but martial skill is also dicipline. It is the frugal rigidity of the training that forges the individual, it is a different concept.
Just my worthless opinion'
Tristan

Yep. I was involved with half a dozen martial arts over thirty years or so when I came to silat, and I've spent much of my time since trying to overcome my previous training ...

After ten years in silat, I still feel like a beginner. Every class, there is something new, and I come away feeling as if I have only scratched the surface and that I won't ever get to the depths ...

Brother Tristan's opinion is not even a tiny bit worthless about this.

[SilatSeeker]

Amen Brothers!

I hear the choir singing now...

[combat ronin]

Hello,

I think that Tristan and Steve have said something that has rung a bell in my own training. The MA world in the west is mostly business yet there are those that train and teach for other reasons cause of this. Sadly in my younger years I saw too much of this and has made me a bit cautious of people in the arts.

If i ever found a sincere teacher in the art of silat it would be something very worthwhile. Although were i am at all i find is TKD and karate.

John

[Pekir]

Tristan,

Wise words Tristan and I more than fully agree. I'am a bit younger than you are but when I started my silat training in 1980 I was only allowed to attend the training by introduction of one of the older students. My teacher had no commercial goals, the money paid was just enough to pay for the rent of the gym. This hasn't changed since then, if the students contribution is not enough to pay for the gym I will put down the money. In that situation you might also say: I pay to teach them. I'm fine with that.

What changed since my early days is that silat and most MA exept karate weren't well known. Students that applied for membership were in general highly motivated for the right reasons. Since MA has become quite popular nowadays we get students that consider our training sessions more like a recreational friday night out. This type of student never last long and I can almost pick them out the minute they walk in. The first few months I observe them intensively and when I think it is worthwhile I'll start giving them extra attention. Of my 12 students today I expect maybe 2 or 3 to obtain a serious senior level anyways.

In regard to 'money talks', we only teach 'paying students' (I also have students who can't afford it and don't pay) what they have 'earned' because of their effort and progression. If they get slappy I will not hesitate to return the focus on previous parts of the curriculum and tell them why. If they don't like it, that's fine with me. I'll just pay some more money out of my own pocket.

I've never considered silat as a commercial commodity for exploitation and never will. If someone does, thats fine with me though I have some difficulty with still calling it asli or original. But like you often state: that might bemy worthless opinion :)

[tellner]

Funny thing - both of Steve's statements got accented and underlined yesterday in the Silat class we both attend. There's a new guy who has been at this for about six months. He's doing great largely because he came knowing absolutely nothing, not even how to make a fist. He didn't have any preconceptions or anything to unlearn.

After class we were standing around admiring the guru's new tatoo. Why did he get it? "To remind myself I know something. When I'm not doing it or teaching class I think 'I don't know anything at all!' " If it's still new to him after 43 years I don't feel so bad for knowing nothing after only 12.

[rizal]

Some thoughts....
I don't think having a conception of your own is wrong. The problem is: do you have the 'right' conception? the right motivation?
Nowadays many new students come with wrong reasons: the image of Bruce Lee or Jet Lee or other martial arts movie star who can take many enemies at once seems etched in their mind, so they want to be like them too. What's the result? The word bullies came to mind.
Many schools nowadays accept students regardless of what is their motives. As long as they pay on time, the school shall 'indulge' them: train them, after the requisite training hours is passed do some evaluation, then gave them their belt/rise their rank.
I think those of us who really loves the art, should be more careful in how we will pass on our craft. Not to sound elitist, but after all, this is a dangerous skill we are talking about.
I never agreed with the Indonesian term 'Seni Bela Diri', which implied Silat is a self-defense method. No, it is not. A trained pesilat is a very dangerous person, not much different with someone carrying a concealed weapon. The English term 'martial arts' has a truer meaning. Silat is developed as a combat tool, not as a self-defense tool.
So, to those who want to learn silat, welcome. Yet, beware, here be dragons.

[Kiai Carita]

....Silat is always cloud with mystery, a black magic, and myths. But I was also so surprised to hear some of the "new" Pendekar or Maha Guru or Guru claimed that they posses all of those things. I also surprised that many of them not explaining the purpose of the technical details based on mechanics and logic. Some of them mixmatch the mechanics, logic and the wicthcraft if I may say that :) ....Tristan

Salam Hormat Mas Tristan,

Maybe for the materialist Western market the woowoo magick is a turn-on? Make it dollars? Look at the way these books are presented by the sellers: http://www.cimande.com/market/items_books.htm . Here you will find that there is a new meaning for ilmu - it has become magick of combat. The promo paragraph for the second book claims knowledge and ability to teach ilmu-kebatinan as traditional internal spiritual magickal aspect found in all authentic pencak silat. Wow nggak? Wow khan? Wow in'it?

Reading through this website you will find this 'Pendekar' claims to have deep knowledge on Jawa and throws in concepts of Juma't Kliwon and writes a definitive book on keris without even mastering Indonesian let alone Jawanese! How can one attempt to understand this?

Furthermore this 'Pendekar' has an ijazah (certificate) signed by the RT and RW (like the head of Neighbourhood Watch, who have nothing to do with silat) with the basic Muslim's salaam wrong, having ommited a whole word. Many people in the Indonesian silat community are rather upset with people making claims like this and thankfully the silat activists in Jakarta and Bogor area have now organised a Traditional silat Lovers forum where problems like these can be discussed.

Just a word of warning that not all that glitters is gold and not all those who wander are lost...

Warm salaams to all,
Bram

[fire cobra]

oh oh here we go again :)

[tellner]

Many schools nowadays accept students regardless of what is their motives. As long as they pay on time, the school shall 'indulge' them: train them, after the requisite training hours is passed do some evaluation, then gave them their belt/rise their rank.
That's a large part of what I don't like about the kyu/dan belt system. A useful tool for large organizations turned into an end in itself. It's back to that old story sometimes told about Kimura, sometimes about Mifune. "I've trained twenty years!" "That's nothing. I've trained for thirty years!" And the Master says "I trained yesterday."

I never agreed with the Indonesian term 'Seni Bela Diri', which implied Silat is a self-defense method. No, it is not. A trained pesilat is a very dangerous person, not much different with someone carrying a concealed weapon. The English term 'martial arts' has a truer meaning. Silat is developed as a combat tool, not as a self-defense tool.
So, to those who want to learn silat, welcome. Yet, beware, here be dragons.

Along with everything else Silat is it's a tool for combat. If it couldn't be used to defend the weak from the strong and the innocent from the evil, let alone protect your own life, then it really isn't worth anything. Self defense isn't all there is there. But I wouldn't have wasted my time on it if it weren't useful for that as well. In a dangerous world you have to be keep the students alive long enough for them to get to the good stuff. Until the basic needs are met the more advanced ones must wait. That's just how people work.

[Orang Jawa]

Salam Hormat Mas Tristan,
Maybe for the materialist Western market the woowoo magick is a turn-on? Make it dollars? Look at the way these books are presented by the sellers: http://www.cimande.com/market/items_books.htm . Here you will find that there is a new meaning for ilmu - it has become magick of combat. The promo paragraph for the second book claims knowledge and ability to teach ilmu-kebatinan as traditional internal spiritual magickal aspect found in all authentic pencak silat. Wow nggak? Wow khan? Wow in'it?

Salam Bram,
Amazing, right? We have long discussion not long ago on this topic at other silat lists. From Mansur's list to Todd's list. :rolleyes:

Reading through this website you will find this 'Pendekar' claims to have deep knowledge on Jawa and throws in concepts of Juma't Kliwon and writes a definitive book on keris without even mastering Indonesian let alone Jawanese! How can one attempt to understand this?

LOL! Only in America! The sad thing many of his students tried to convince me that he was a legit. The only certified Cimande Pendekar in America.
To be fair, many Indonesian/Malaysian/Philiphino so called pendekars spreading this kind of garbage for money too :bang:

Furthermore this 'Pendekar' has an ijazah (certificate) signed by the RT and RW (like the head of Neighbourhood Watch, who have nothing to do with silat) with the basic Muslim's salaam wrong, having ommited a whole word. Many people in the Indonesian silat community are rather upset with people making claims like this and thankfully the silat activists in Jakarta and Bogor area have now organised a Traditional silat Lovers forum where problems like these can be discussed.

Next February, I'm planing to visit Jakarta, I hope I have time to visit you Mas Bram. The problem is, I only have two weeks, and I have a large family in Jakarta. So I will be busy being visited or visit them.
The funny thing is, many so called silat students coming to Indonesia, stay for two weeks, took some pictures, and have time to earn their pendekar certificate and got permission to spread the silat to the whole wide word. They have a certificate to proof it.
They must be the LUCKY ONE!

Just a word of warning that not all that glitters is gold and not all those who wander are lost...

Word of wisdom, indeed!
Warm regards,
Tristan

[Pekir]

I wonder for how long :bang: but this must be magick/ilmu/kenatinan :) We all agree (thusfar)

Pekir

[rizal]

The disadvantage of most Silat schools that we don't have the equivalent of Menkyo Kaiden like Japanese Budo Schools (I might be wrong...).
So far, I've only personally see two occasions that a teacher of Pencak Silat declared that his student has learned all he needs to know and received his teacher's blessing to become a teacher. It also done verbally, with only his other students as witnesses. Nothing on paper, nothing advertised.

[silatliam]

Salam Hormat Mas Tristan,

Maybe for the materialist Western market the woowoo magick is a turn-on? Make it dollars? Look at the way these books are presented by the sellers: http://www.cimande.com/market/items_books.htm . Here you will find that there is a new meaning for ilmu - it has become magick of combat. The promo paragraph for the second book claims knowledge and ability to teach ilmu-kebatinan as traditional internal spiritual magickal aspect found in all authentic pencak silat. Wow nggak? Wow khan? Wow in'it?

Reading through this website you will find this 'Pendekar' claims to have deep knowledge on Jawa and throws in concepts of Juma't Kliwon and writes a definitive book on keris without even mastering Indonesian let alone Jawanese! How can one attempt to understand this?

Furthermore this 'Pendekar' has an ijazah (certificate) signed by the RT and RW (like the head of Neighbourhood Watch, who have nothing to do with silat) with the basic Muslim's salaam wrong, having ommited a whole word. Many people in the Indonesian silat community are rather upset with people making claims like this and thankfully the silat activists in Jakarta and Bogor area have now organised a Traditional silat Lovers forum where problems like these can be discussed.

Just a word of warning that not all that glitters is gold and not all those who wander are lost...

Warm salaams to all,
Bram

Hi Kiai / Bram

Here we go again. Every three to four weeks you bring up the same old spreel time and time again. You must spend your whole time just thinking about us in the Pukulan Cimande group along with Pendekar Sanders our teacher. This forum has been going well for a while now, and it really sad you cant seem to get us out of your system. When you were invited along to talk to Penekar Sanders directly about this, you refused to turn up. When you were invited to come along and train with us and have a chat you quoted "we werent worthy" and couldnt train in our presence??. Even though you repeatively asked us to preformed for your gig. This row you have with our group extends all the way back, to the gigs you were promoting in London, and even though at the time, very few people supported you, we did at the start, untill you lost the head when Gavin, couldnt make one night because of work.and now since then you been sniping at us.

The thing is I cant seem to understand is that (since going by you, we all lost and dont know cimande as we train under Pendekar Sanders), I just again been asked again by the Indonesian Community in Ireland, to represent their culture in a Internation World festival being held in Ireland which attract entries from over 80 countries and will be attended by 300,000 people over the two days. This follow last year doing a Silat demo for the Indonesian community and diplomats, they all came over and shake our hands one of them quoted " it was the most beautiful display of Silat he saw in 20 years. Some of the Indonesian themselves cried, because they remember their parents practising Cimande and hadnt seen it for years. I wrote this because I'm tired of always reading you run down our group. If you have a personal problem deal with it directly, stop using the forum for your own agenda.

On a final note I dont sell what I teach on the Magickal, I teach the physical. I dont judge people by their certificates, I judge people or teachers by the way they move, the way they teach and the manner in the way they conducts themselves with me. Other people may have different reactions to Pendekar Sanders. But to me and to many others he is a very kind, honest, thoughtfull teacher who I glad I have met and learnt from. I dont like people who wernt prepared to meet him, come on to a Internet forum and slate someone they didnt have the courage to meet.

If you dont like what he does, dont go near him, he wont run after you. If you want to train with him, he very helpful. At the end of the day do your own thing and stop worry about him. Its a free world and we all have choice.
Its really sad with Silat been such a small minority art (and doesnt seem to be getting any bigger) we are prepared to attack other teachers who are doing their bit to help Silat. Its a big world and they so few teachers out there. There are plenty of other Martial Arts systems who attack Silat and it cultures without us turning on our own. Plenty of other attractions, like the Pub, drink drugs that will attract the young of our society away from Silat without this silly bickering.

Liam

[Orang Jawa]

Salam Liam,
I'm a beginer in Silat, know next to nothing in Silat Cimande.
It would be my privelege and honor to have chance to meet your teacher Pendekar Sander. Could you tell when he would be around NY, NJ, and PA?
Warm regards,
Tristan

[silatliam]

Hi Tristan
Thank you for your enquiry. It would be my privelege to pass your message onto my teacher and I'm very sure he would love to meet you, if the opportunity arises as, He doesnt teach the same number of seminars now as he used to, as he focusing on different areas and passions in his life, but I'm sure he would like to meet up.

Myself I'm in Dublin and try to teach (to best of my ability)in Ireland and UK so we long way apart. I'm just trying to do my bit to bring the beauty of Silat to people in this part of the World.

Every year we lose more great teachers from this World and its very sad to see people who have given their entire lives to promoting this beautiful art we all shared, having their work criticized. Every one of us is human and come with our abilites and failures, no one of these forum is perfect. So instead of looking for the wrong or trying to score points, we should looking at the good, and work together.

I dont know about other Silat teachers here, but I spend my whole time defending Silat from the riducle especially from the MMA society, who in my part of the world poke fun at Silat the whole time as a disfunctional art form and has no real place in combat. I do my best to stand up to these guys and then I come to a Silat forum to read and discuss silat, and I see Silat guys attacking other Silat guys (usually at the end of the day it a personal matter or agenda between these guys) and it really sadden me. It sometimes no wonder Silat has not gain the reputation it really rightly deserved

I been only training in silat for 21 years, but I never seen such a minority art form have so much politics, rows, personal agenda, religious and culture difficulties. When I meet people away from the forum and train with them, you can see we all love Silat.
So if there people that we dont like and dont respect, than stay away from them, they soon get the message. If there people you want to train with go and meet them and have fun. Lets keep this forum running smooth. and help it to promote Silat in our World.

[Steve Perry]

Hi Kiai / Bram

Here we go again. Every three to four weeks you bring up the same old spreel time and time again.

(snip)

Its really sad with Silat been such a small minority art (and doesnt seem to be getting any bigger) we are prepared to attack other teachers who are doing their bit to help Silat. Its a big world and they so few teachers out there. There are plenty of other Martial Arts systems who attack Silat and it cultures without us turning on our own. Plenty of other attractions, like the Pub, drink drugs that will attract the young of our society away from Silat without this silly bickering.

Liam

Brother Liam --

With all due respect, it takes two to tango, or, in this case, to bicker.

I had a long email discussion with Pendekar Sanders, midwifed by a mutual friend who has a great deal of respect for the man, and who wished to see peace between the various factions.

In that discussion, I found Sanders to be reasonable, save in one fairly narrow arena. Unfortunately, I believe this one area colors much of what he believes in such a way as to make agreement on about aspects of our respective arts impossible.

From what I was able to understand, Sanders was badly screwed over by a silat teacher decades ago; he has a right to be resentful of that. More, that teacher and his students spent a lot of time offering ridicule in public, and I can understand how that rankles, too. But if your response to being bitten by a dog is to run around shotgunning every dog you see, then various packs are not going to be happy to see you coming.

Sanders's justifiable ire at one teacher seems to have slopped over onto others, to the extent that he certainly appears trying very hard to disenfranchise my branch of the art, and you might understand how that doesn't sit too well.

We agreed to disagree, no hard feelings, and to move on -- if not peace, then at least an armistice.

Thing is, even for an armistice, both sides have to stop shooting. From where I sit, Pendekar Sanders hasn't laid his gun down yet, either. So for you to be upset about bickering is valid, but from where I sit, your side of the war can't claim to be completely righteous, either.

Steve

[Ular Sawa]

Hi Steve,

From what I have observed, the only shots your group has taken on MAP have come from those that your teacher may have been formerly affiliated with. Apologies if I did not describe them or the situation accurately.

I have found most of the threads on the Silat board to be informative regardless of who has posted them. There are now those who simply cannot contribute in a positive manner all the time. I do not recall it being this way back when you used to post here. It's too bad really. Cheers.

[silatliam]

I have been asked by my teacher Pendekar Sanders to post the following response he sent me, in answer to Kiai / Bram remarks. If you have any furthur questions Pendekar Sanders can be contacted by way of his website
www.cimande.com. Thank you

Liam

Lettle from Pendekar Sanders
In regards to the slanderous remarks once again made by the same people I will leave this brief reply. WOW their is an omitted word on my certificate !!!!! What proof we now all have that printers make errors and are not infallible gods of the printed material. Surely that proves the intent of the certificate is not valid , Surely that proves the real originator of the Certificate, the highly esteemed well know Pendekar Mama Sukarma's words on it have no meaning . Surely that proves it means nothing that along with him, the Chief of Cimande village and every single elder in Cimande village who signed it means nothing. Yes for sure we can see your wisdom. Yes my encyclopedia Britannica has been found to contain a printing error so now I will throw away all of the volumes Now that I have learned that means all of the facts are flawed!!! Now back to reality. It’s a simple thing for any one who doubts the authenticity of this to take their complaints to Pendekar Mama in Indonesia. He told me he has been waiting for anyone to show up and question him but so far no one has. He will show you up close and personal if that omitted word really means he did not issue that certificate, or if it really means that a simple printing error happened by a human printer, which word by the way has zero meaning in the actual wording of what was granted.

Being so petty of course illustrates a desperate person with another motif and other agenda altogether which has nothing to do with admitting it was really issued by a top ranking Master of Cimande and with the value of what is taught or how hard I have worked to bring a fantastic art to my students. Of course the other parts of the certificate are also not mentioned about building friendship and brotherhood of humanity without discrimination as to race , nationality , religion, sex, or creed as long as a belief in the almighty God is held. Yes the certificate also says that, but is that not more important to dwell on besides some so called omitted word? Would not those parts of the certificate not benefit us to follow? I would hope that would be read in the old silat magazine always spoken about also, even from those who say they don’t know much. THIS is what we should be concentrating on with each other. I have no delusions about converting those with their private agendas who simply act humble but wield the back stabbing knife in the other hand. I have no time for it. But my doors are open to all those who want to come and learn and see what we have to offer. I will admit that so far ALL of those who have really showed up were very happy with what they were taught. By the way one does not need to know Indonesian to learn about the Keris etc. Translation has made the world able to communicate with each other just fine for some time. My seminar schedule is always posted on my website and the doors are open. As always I HIGHLY recommend that anyone who wishes to compare what they do to what we do to attend a seminar from both arts , by a tape of both ways, examine them closely and ask yourself which way would I rather move and fight like and then make that choice and have fun . I am more interested in training and teaching and helping those who want to learn than to bully boy tactics and nit picking of unimportant items which is why we continue to grow world wide.

Pendekar Sanders

[Orang Jawa]

Hi Tristan
Thank you for your enquiry. It would be my privelege to pass your message onto my teacher and I'm very sure he would love to meet you, if the opportunity arises as, He doesnt teach the same number of seminars now as he used to, as he focusing on different areas and passions in his life, but I'm sure he would like to meet up.
***************
Hi Liam,
I think Pendekar Sander knew me. but he could forgot too, I'm insignifant and not a worthy silat player to be remember :)

>Myself I'm in Dublin and try to teach (to best of my ability)in Ireland and UK so we long way apart. I'm just trying to do my bit to bring the beauty of Silat to people in this part of the World.
*************
I was in Dublin last Summer, went to see the U-2 concert and got 4 days hangover :) As a matter of fact, I propose to my girlfriend at the Cathederal :)
Just an oldman trying to be romantic.
Tristan

[Garuda]

I dont know about other Silat teachers here, but I spend my whole time defending Silat from the riducle especially from the MMA society, who in my part of the world poke fun at Silat the whole time as a disfunctional art form and has no real place in combat.

To be honest when people or other MA-ists say things about pencak silat like: Isn't PS that dancing thing, or PS is not effective in real combat. I just smile and nod yes! Because I have the feeling that I do not have to proof myself to others or I do not have to convince others. The most important thing is that I know myself what the value is of PS. It is better that people underestimate you, then it is easier to surprise them.

Also regarding all the "fighting" on this forum. My question is why? If you are happy with the teacher you are training with, why should you convince others? In the end everyone finds his own way.

I am happy with the way that I chose, but next to that I accept that other persons have other ways regarding PS. And that always makes my curious. I love to hear about how other persons practice PS and how they experience it. It also makes me proud to know that PS is so diverse and has so many faces and I realize that PS might be the only MA that is so diverse and has so much variation.

So much to learn, so little time.


Garuda...

[Orang Jawa]

Lettle from Pendekar Sanders
In regards to the slanderous remarks once again made by the same people I will leave this brief reply. WOW their is an omitted word on my certificate !!!!!


First of all, I'm not the authority in Cimande, nor of my teacher and his teacher's teacher. The three generation silat students that don't have the certificate nor the tittle Pendekar. You have to take it like it is. :)

I too was surprise to see William Sanders proudly showing off his certificate sign by pak RT/RW...That's bizzare, indeed. RT/RW/Hansip it got nothing to do with silat.

I give an example the little function of RT, RW, and Lurah. If you want to have Indonesian Driver License, You have to go to RT with the form, give him 50c US he will sign the form, then go to RW $1, then finally to Lurah for approx $5 US, you will get your Driver License before you say WOW :) If you give the Lurah $100 US, he will sign anything you wants, as long as you take it back to the USA. :rolleyes:

I'm not accusing anyone doing that, but the certificate was the alarm for all of us who learn Silat in Indonesia. William Sanders may be the first foreigner to have the Pendekar certificate for all I know. :bang:

I asked my teacher if he knows a person by the name of Pendekar Mama Sukarma. He did not know of him as the well known Pendekar in Cimande. It does not mean he knows everyone in silat. So it goes both way. :)

If all of us just study silat, can talk about it and can perform the way it suppose to be. Suddenly the certificate and the title don't mean a thing :)

So as Brother Steve said. You have to silent your gun before asking some one else to stop firing...something like that :)

I could be wrong too, No punts intended!
Peace and Be well
Tristan

[Kiai Carita]

Warm Salaams to all,

I did actually send an email to Sanders earlier this year (through Liam in Ireland) but did not get any answer. So several pints that could have been solved in private now need to come out in the open. Let us examine Sanders' letter paragraph by paragraph....I have coloured his statements in orange.

Lettle from Pendekar Sanders
In regards to the slanderous remarks once again made by the same people I will leave this brief reply. WOW their is an omitted word on my certificate !!!!! What proof we now all have that printers make errors and are not infallible gods of the printed material. Surely that proves the intent of the certificate is not valid ,

Bram says: well, please show just one other certificate with spelling errors or important words ommited? I have never seen one, but then I am not a seminar giving Pendekar :) ... This is not slander if you know the meaning of the word. You come with claims that are not backed up. You are slandering the traditions of Cimande and I am merely pointing this out to the world.

Surely that proves the real originator of the Certificate, the highly esteemed well know Pendekar Mama Sukarma's words on it have no meaning . Surely that proves it means nothing that along with him, the Chief of Cimande village and every single elder in Cimande village who signed it means nothing.

Bram says: Well, firstly you have mistaken the village petty beaurocrats as elders! This is hillarious! Secondly, Mama is an honorific tittle, so Pendekar Mama is a funny name to address someone. I was in Bogor earlier this year and no silat elder I asked knew of Pak Sukarma. Obviousely he is more well known in California than in Cimande.

It’s a simple thing for any one who doubts the authenticity of this to take their complaints to Pendekar Mama in Indonesia. He told me he has been waiting for anyone to show up and question him but so far no one has. He will show you up close and personal if that omitted word really means he did not issue that certificate, or if it really means that a simple printing error happened by a human printer, which word by the way has zero meaning in the actual wording of what was granted.


Bram says: no the word does not have zero meaning. What a blasphemous and ignorant comment from a great Cimande Pendekar!

Being so petty of course illustrates a desperate person with another motif and other agenda altogether which has nothing to do with admitting it was really issued by a top ranking Master of Cimande and with the value of what is taught or how hard I have worked to bring a fantastic art to my students.

Bram says: up to you to judge my motives and agenda just as anyone can question the wierd Cimande presented as real in your website. No Cimande practitioner recognizes anything there! As for me, when I was in Bogor I met with many silat elders and showed them what was going on in the web. They asked me personally to continue to point out the faults on the web to the foreigners who bring dishonour to Cimande by not only cleansing it from Islam but mixing it with the occult and Alistair Crowley, Untung Surapati and who knows what.

Of course the other parts of the certificate are also not mentioned about building friendship and brotherhood of humanity without discrimination as to race , nationality , religion, sex, or creed as long as a belief in the almighty God is held. Yes the certificate also says that, but is that not more important to dwell on besides some so called omitted word? Would not those parts of the certificate not benefit us to follow?

Bram says: Personally I feel those statements to be words that come from an American rather than a traditional Cimande elder who has alot of Islamic Calligraphy on the certificate to. It is a strange sentence to have on the certificate, just like the signatures there. However, the certificate mentioned only gives authority to teach the Pusaka Karuhun Tari Kolot Cimande, not to use it to make something up.

By the way one does not need to know Indonesian to learn about the Keris etc. Translation has made the world able to communicate with each other just fine for some time.

Bram says: ladies and gentleman, what does this arrogant sentence say to you? Talk about keris, the most mystical object in Jawa culture, only through translators? Wow! How disrespectful to knowledge!

My seminar schedule is always posted on my website and the doors are open. As always I HIGHLY recommend that anyone who wishes to compare what they do to what we do to attend a seminar from both arts , by a tape of both ways, examine them closely and ask yourself which way would I rather move and fight like and then make that choice and have fun . I am more interested in training and teaching and helping those who want to learn than to bully boy tactics and nit picking of unimportant items which is why we continue to grow world wide.

Pendekar Sanders

Bram says: talk about motives and so on! At the end all you want to do is invite people to (pay) to come to your seminars. Well, you have yourself filmed on your website. Is that the way you want people to move and call it Ciimande? Please get real and tell the truth. Cimande Pusaka is really Cimande Sanders...is it not? From looking at your website it would seem that you know little about the culture of silat and particularly Cimande and the Sunda people. Why would a poor Indonesian immigrant like myself want to pay to go to a seminar of yours. I believe only geniouses can learn martial arts from seminars. I am not very clever.

Hope to continue this public correspondence with you, Sir!

Hormat saya,

Bram.

[silatliam]

Hi Kiai
I thought I would address some of your point here.


[QUOTE=Kiai Carita]Warm Salaams to all,

I did actually send an email to Sanders earlier this year (through Liam in Ireland) but did not get any answer. So several pints that could have been solved in private now need to come out in the open. Let us examine Sanders' letter paragraph by paragraph.....

Why are you telling lies??? Here is the start of your message sent to me by You by email on Tuesday 17th Jan 2006 2.06pm

Hi Liam, thanks for the email...actualy apologies for putting the letter on Gorka's site too...

Do you not remember sending this if you need a copy I send to you. So here lie number 1.




Bram says: up to you to judge my motives and agenda just as anyone can question the wierd Cimande presented as real in your website. No Cimande practitioner recognizes anything there! As for me, when I was in Bogor I met with many silat elders and showed them what was going on in the web. They asked me personally to continue to point out the faults on the web to the foreigners who bring dishonour to Cimande by not only cleansing it from Islam but mixing it with the occult and Alistair Crowley, Untung Surapati and who knows what.

I ve done various demo for different Indonesian groups in Ireland (and in front of diplolmants and ambassadors )and they have all said what we do is Cimande and they also come from Java. So do these Indonesian in Ireland and Uk not know there own art form?? Or you claiming that these Indonesian in Ireland are liars??? I would like to know I have had Indonesian in my class who parents learnt Cimande, and they saw no disrespect and they felt it was Cimande they were learning. I was speaking to Gavin (remember from the demo you were promoting yourself with) last night, and he didnt hear a bad remark from any of the People he demo in front off in London, in fact it was the opposite. He told me a few things you said to him, which are the complete opposite what you now saying about us so maybe he a liar too???




By the way one does not need to know Indonesian to learn about the Keris etc. Translation has made the world able to communicate with each other just fine for some time.

Bram says: ladies and gentleman, what does this arrogant sentence say to you? Talk about keris, the most mystical object in Jawa culture, only through translators? Wow! How disrespectful to knowledge!


I have train under different teachers some Westeren and Eastern none of them required me to learn Indonesian Language. I didnt take up silat to learn to speak Indonesian. I took it up learn the art. Ive train under Muslim teachers and none asked me to convert. I even was asked to teach a group of Muslim in Dublin who wanted to learn Silat. They had no problem learning from a Celt. As they felt the way I teach Cimande was honourable to them. Its seem the only person that really has a problem with us is You ! Unless all these guys are liars to? By the way I have a Japanese tv and computer a German car maybe I shouldnt have these as I dont speak these languages either (going by your logic)

[
Bram says: talk about motives and so on! At the end all you want to do is invite people to (pay) to come to your seminars. Well, you have yourself filmed on your website. Is that the way you want people to move and call it Ciimande? Please get real and tell the truth. Cimande Pusaka is really Cimande Sanders...is it not? From looking at your website it would seem that you know little about the culture of silat and particularly Cimande and the Sunda people. Why would a poor Indonesian immigrant like myself want to pay to go to a seminar of yours. I believe only geniouses can learn martial arts from seminars. I am not very clever.

Bram You either a very confused person or a really awful liar. 1. You were invited free, no charge, you know this to be true. 2. You were invited along to my classes FREE OF CHARGE. Now on the seminar front Pendekar Sanders does not charge people to come along to his seminar. This is a terrible lie. In your stupidity you have accuse him of something he does not do. He charges the host of the seminar (which for 4 days is £400) this is to cover his time off work thats all. I know of very few teachers who publicly teach charge so little. It is the host that charge for the seminar, this is to cover airflights, accommadation, hall hire insurance etc.. nobody hands over free flights just because you do silat .. get real(just wondering I believe you get paid for your work and the good you sell, do you not?? then you are just as bad working and selling goods for money) The seminars Pendekar teaches are supported by the classes that are taught afterwards by the teachers. Pendekar lives in LA how else would I get this knowledge. Seminar teaching is a widly used format not only be western teachers but also Indonesian teachers I can give you a list if needed. All my students are taught personally by me they not seminar students.

Never once in my entire time training in Silat, nor in my time learning from Pendekar Sanders has any student ever been turnt away from learning Silat from me, either in one of my class nor at a seminar, because of a lack of money. If any student has, had money problems I have always let them train. Money is not the number 1 aquirement to learn silat from me or Pendekar Sanders, a willingness and dedication is more important. The slur you put across linking my teacher and art with money is a disgrace. Can you find one student who was sent away from a class or a seminar of mines or even Pendekar because he was broke???
or had no money, bet you, you cant find one person.

As I said before come along and play / spar with my students and tell them where they gone wrong at, explain to them that the way they move is not Cimande, because it seems you the only one saying this. I like you to explain to these humble silat guys in Dublin why the art they doing is not silat. Because I really would like to know. To help If you want I will pay your flight accross from UK arrange your pick up at airport and bring you to class. All you need is your training gear. Let me know when it suits. you wont need to spend a single cent. So dont hide behind any more smoke screens, you talk the talk now walk the walk. I want to see this Cimande you talk about and if we wrong it be easy to see when you play. All I asked is that we video the session so we can learn from our mistakes

Now let me tell you something Pendekar Sanders doesnt charge any of my students who travel over to train with him. He doesnt charge any of my students who train privately with him. Never once in 9 years has he charge me or any of my dedicated students a single cent, euro, or dollar. He has always given not take. To write the things you have makes you out to a man who is full of hate and anger. You have made a number of statements which are complete lies.

Liam

[silatliam]

I was asked today to post this reply from my teacher

my reply to Tristen .

Once again I am forced to state the obvious .

Pendekar Mama is well known in Cimande Village please refer to Forum Member Bobby Edmunds(Bobster ) who visited Cimande village and went to Pendekar Mama'a home where low and behold was my picture as well as many of my students . To say he is not well known their is a distortion of the facts BIG TIME “ plain and simple “. Ask the Mayor of Cimande Village or ANY elder their. Ask an important person in Cimande there. I can not say for sure just an average guy on the street knows him, if I tried such a ruse of course that would be a big deception. It would be like me going to one of your home towns talking to a friend of mine who might live their and asking if they Knew you if they said no say UH HAHH that proves he is not a big guy in Cimande. Don’t take my word ask the mayor or any Cimande elder then you will see for yourself the deception. Ask Bobby who was there himself.

The other people who WINTESSED the signatures on my certificate were there to verify it, were from Cimande village and they where WITNESES TO PENDEKAR MAMA'S SIGNATURE. Have you not heard of getting a witness on an official paper?

Again I must say to slander the Cimande elders who signed this with the inference of taking a bribe is not only a cheap shot but in very poor adat and Hormot to those people. In addition must that witness be a grand Puba to be a witness? Obvious answers to once again the plain and simple agenda of various people to insinuate I did not get the certificate or make fun of it etc etc etc.., This has NO other use but to try and cast doubts on myself and my organization and is nothing more than another cheap shot . WHY ? Maybe certain people are furious they don’t have any recognized teachers authorizing them. Maybe as it sounds their is Jealousy that I am not an Indonesian but still was given merit, oh but those don’t count . College degrees don’t count, hell why even get a drivers licensee or take that test it’s just a hunk of paper just let anyone drive. Who cares if your Dr. did not graduate from medical school its just a piece of paper . uh uh. . Or maybe its just those singing the tale of the fox and the sour grapes, I don’t have it so yours is no good. I hope not and choose to think better of people , but these are not nice things to do , these are not things done in the spirit of working together, these have no positive effects on anyone . They are simply mean spirited.

From my first teacher Guru John Malter we were given certificates as a way for us to measure where we were in the art, and to carry away from the school so others could see we achieved a certain level according to our teachers . I have found in the USA a lot of people who poo poed such things as being not necessary as far as their past was concerned were eventually found to have made most of what they did up, or seriously distorted what the art was . I have tried to give my students NOY ONLY an art they loved and admired but a real history of who agreed with what I taught and said so. Funny these also come directly from Indonesia , yet then it is parlayed they are all a bunch of bribe taking crooks ??????Seems to really get under certain peoples skins, HMMM.

Now as far as the art is concerned I already stated their is nothing and I mean nothing better for any prospective student to look , REALY look, at the arts, and then decide which they like . I certainly favor that for sure. The addition of recognition by a leading worlds class authority also helps one to know that years later you wont find out I made the whole thing up along with a bunch of other lies, you can just ask Pendekar Mama if I know Cimande or not.Wait till my new book comes out on Mas Jud and that reality comes to light, and then many will see why no certificates were had. Seems they could not bribe any one to give those ones out, if it was so easy to do. Some won’t like it but it is what the relatives of Mas Jud said. Again I will list names and locations.

Read my latest letter on my website where I said it is time for a new leaf to be turned and all are welcome even my most hated enemy in the past. I welcome you all to train, what more can I say or offer? Any of you , show me a post on this forum where myself or one of my students has ""Fired : a shot at you or your schools that was not a self defense reply to an open attack, cheap shot derogatory remark ????????? Let's see where we fired this shot on this forum?????? We will be waiting a long time!!! Now if you can’t find one please admit this was not an accurate and you were wrong. I am sitting by my computer for those who said this to put it out their now????? Even on my own training forum I REMOVE before they get posted ANY slanderous remarks or cuts on ANY silat teacher despite what ever I may believe. ALL of my letters on my own web site (not on this forum) where in response to attacks that came our way. This forum is supposed to have a policy of no personal attacks, those that violate that are rule breakers, criminals of sorts who hold no value for the rules, what does that say about your ethics gentleman?????????

Many of you have been warned and warned and warned but you continue on and then have the nerve to say I have not put my shot gun away , its no wonder the world is in turmoil. Once again I am forced to reply in self defense to a cheap shot attack, those that have eyes can see this clearly.

Mr. Sanders

[realitychecker]

Greetings to you all,

With all do respect to you all, why so much fighting? Maybe I shouldn't ask why though. It is sooooo hard (at least in my corner of the world) to meet other people willing to train martial arts, let alone devote thier lives to teaching it to others. As a begginer to Silat, it disheartens me to see folks of such high calibur fighting about such petty issues. There is way too much future knowledge and understanding that is going to be trampled on and left in the dirt if this doesn't stop soon! Like Guru Liam said, we lose many teachers every year to father time. Opinions on a keyboard are one thing, in person they're another. I may or may not get slammed by other members of the tribe I train in by this, but oh well. I had an opportunity to meet Pendekar Sanders and Guru Besar Jerry Jacobs in Mi. last year. Call it what you want, but what they do is a "real" martial art. The thing IS, they are ALL generous, friendly, and kind. They also are VERY dedicated to what they are learning. They are very skilled fighters and well learned martial artists to boot!
Why fight about it? We are ALL missing the boat BIG TIME! Silat is such a miniscule fraction of the MA community. We should all be sticking togather rather than these silly fueds. Even the "well I saw so-and-so's tapes, and he don't have nothin" arguments are very stupid too. I have seen mediocre tapes from my camp, as well as Pendekar Sanders and quite a few others. The thing is, in person, all these folks are much more talented than video leads one to believe. The proof is in the puddin'! Go see for YOURSELF, in person before you lash out. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter, the politics that is. Is the person a GOOD teacher, or not? Does this person turn out skilled fighters?Teachers? Do people truly enjoy training with this person? If the answer is yes, then you have indeed found yourself a treasure. For as much time and energy as some of you do spend bashing one another, and "disproving certificates""lineages""credentials" etc., wouldn't you, your students, and future pesilat benifit from an extended hand? I mean, a true wise leader in my eyes will always find room to grow. There is a serious lack of this in the entire world-period. History is best when made, not dwelled upon. Why live in the past? How many silat camps would benifit soooo much from brotherhood and sharing, if not only to gain more people to train with (which I stated above there is a serious lack of!!!).
Why spend this much time in the negative? Try being friends with the martial artist that you are bashing, you just might learn something and grow just when you thought you couldn't any more!
Just the worthless opinion of a layman so don't take this too seriously if a narrow-mind leads you to do so.
John

[Pekir]

I was asked today to post this reply from my teacher

my reply to Tristen .

Once again I am forced to state the obvious .

This has NO other use but to try and cast doubts on myself and my organization and is nothing more than another cheap shot . WHY ? Maybe certain people are furious they don’t have any recognized teachers authorizing them. Maybe as it sounds their is Jealousy that I am not an Indonesian but still was given merit, oh but those don’t count . College degrees don’t count, hell why even get a drivers licensee or take that test it’s just a hunk of paper just let anyone drive. Who cares if your Dr. did not graduate from medical school its just a piece of paper . uh uh. . Or maybe its just those singing the tale of the fox and the sour grapes, I don’t have it so yours is no good. I hope not and choose to think better of people , but these are not nice things to do , these are not things done in the spirit of working together, these have no positive effects on anyone . They are simply mean spirited.
Mr. Sanders

Mr Sanders,

There is really only one part of your post that I want to react to. We had an 'e-mail/mail by post' discussion about 15 years ago and It's clear since that we will never agree on most matters relating to silat. Your last post triggers me though to respond.

Using words like: 'don’t have any recognized teachers authorizing them' implies that teachers who are not (widely) recognized are not of the same standard and (local) authority as yours probably/obviously are. If you ask me this doesn't acknowledges a historic perspective on Indonesian society/history and more specificly silat. There might be a few hundred registered silat styles nowadays but there still are a lot of teachers who are not registered to date and will not be in the future. This type of teacher will never be widely recognized because it simple isn't part of their goals and mindset. Teachers who have chosen to teach the way silat was taught in the 'old days'. In the old and traditional way the acknowledgement from a teacher towards his students was almost never, if ever, backed up by formal documents and exams. There simply was a teacher and a very select number of serious students and no need for formal affairs Dr./MBa's and licenses, these are western inventions not Indonesian. A lot of teachers still don't feel the need. Does this lack of formal affairs open the door to clouded histories and bogus claims? It sure does and if you really know Indonesian society it's probably best to accept this as a fact of life. And believe me this is not meant as an insult to the Indonesians (and by this the bigger part of my own family)


You present an aspect of the Indonesian silat world as it has become more or less since the independence, a national organization and up to thousands of students under one maha guru/Pendekar etc. Sure the bigger schools gave the Indonesian silat a identity towards the 'world' but there is a bigger picture than these big schools with their 'modern'organizations. You should seriously doubt if these modern school offer a comprehensive insight of silat's origins. Like myself there are a whole lot of teachers whose primary goal is to keep their art alive by raising a succesor, acknowledgement by the outside world has never been one and never will.

Pekir

[Steve Perry]

Wait till my new book comes out on Mas Jud and that reality comes to light, and then many will see why no certificates were had. Seems they could not bribe any one to give those ones out, if it was so easy to do. Some won’t like it but it is what the relatives of Mas Jud said. Again I will list names and locations.

Precisely my point about the shotgun. Pendekar Sanders is writing a book that is going to, unless I miss my guess entirely, purport that the de Vries and de Thouars families did not study silat with Mas Djut -- either to any depth, or at all -- and that all the history they claim is, sadly, false.

Somehow, they came up with a working martial art they called "Sera," apparently out of thin air, attributed to to people with whom they did not train, and carried it with them to the new world.

Frankly, I would be happier if I thought that was the case.

For some years, Pendekar Sanders's main attack dog Guru Besar Jeff Davidson, no longer affliated with the Cimande Pusaka organization, offered that there was no such style as Sera(k) at all, and the whole thing was a huge fraud. I have no doubt at all where he might have gotten that idea.

One might understand how those of us who have spent a decade or more training in Sera might find such comments less than refreshing ...

How this kind of thing turns over a new leaf and makes for peace is beyond my ken: So sorry, Steve, but your art's elders are all liars, and you and all of the Sera students in America have been gulled. But, hey, you are welcome to train with us in the real stuff anyhow ...

A book from somebody who has little use for our version of the art, due to a teacher in it who admittedly caused him great pain and financial hardship, is certainly not going to be taken as objective reporting by others in that art, leastways it won't be by me. I have heard Pendekar Sanders's evidence and find it less than compelling.

And there is nothing I say here that I haven't said directly to him via email, nor would feel any qualms about saying to him in person .

Many of you have been warned and warned and warned but you continue on and then have the nerve to say I have not put my shot gun away , its no wonder the world is in turmoil. Once again I am forced to reply in self defense to a cheap shot attack, those that have eyes can see this clearly.

And I would stand corrected if your teacher can point out where I took cheap shots at him in public once he and I had our discussions. I've offered no slander, nor libel (the former is spoken, the latter that which is written), simply disagreement with many of his points, and that old saw "Because my teacher said so." doesn't cut much ice on either side ...

My points stands. If you want peace, you don't keep shooting. You don't offer provocative actions, such as this upcoming book is certain to do. For Pendekar Sanders to offer that he doesn't realize this book will just add fuel to the fire seems more than a bit disengenous.

[/QUOTE]

[tellner]

The disadvantage of most Silat schools that we don't have the equivalent of Menkyo Kaiden like Japanese Budo Schools (I might be wrong...).
So far, I've only personally see two occasions that a teacher of Pencak Silat declared that his student has learned all he needs to know and received his teacher's blessing to become a teacher. It also done verbally, with only his other students as witnesses. Nothing on paper, nothing advertised.

That's one of the biggest problems with martial arts in general. The old gradations roughly translated as "Has it down but still needs a little supervision", "He's got it. We stand behind him" and "Grand Old Master who gets moved to the head of the line for dinner because he's an inspiration to us all". It made a lot of sense.

At last year's training session for his extended Silat family my teacher recognized one of his students as a having gotten to that second stage. I think that's his first completed student.

[realitychecker]

Hello Again,


After typing my last post, I had to step away a little while and cool off. The reality of what's going on here is kinda sad. It boils down to the fact that schools, cabangs, alirans, camps, tribes, etc, are bashing each other mostly because thier leaders have an axe to grind with the leader of the other 'camp'. Most of it has to do with matters regarding money, in some way, shape, or form. It would seem as martial artists, if the problem stemmed from the style, or quality of fighting, it could be solved by 'duking it out'. But, that is not the case here. The residual side effect of this is, we (the students of these tribes) get caught in the middle of the "shooting". Some students even start feeling that they need to help with bearing that 'axe' without ever really understanding why they're grinding it. The fact is is that we all end up losing out in the end. Think of how much more we could grow if we were all friends, friendly and kind to each other. How much (even the old grumpy ones) more everyone could grow if it were...

Like I said before, I am sad that so much more can be gained from the opposite of the undertones going on here in the MAP Silat forum. A GOOD friend of mine from Traverse City, Mi. had to remind me today that I needed to look for the "fun" in my martial art again. Life is bad enough with the pressures of work and the cost of living, the friggin terrorists trying to blow up planes and all of the meaningless wars being fought right now. I started in MA to relieve the stress from all of that. I didn't need to learn how to fight. Experience taught me that fighting just happens even if you don't have a PHD, or "certificate" to do it. I got in to relieve the stress of this world, and to get an 'upper hand' on it in my world. I come to this forum for advice and guidence. My teacher lives 2000 miles from me in the Pacific Northwest for cry-ay. Any positive advice or guidence that I can pick up along the way benifits me, and my fellow students. When they read a negative post from here or other sites, or it comes up in conversation at a gathering, it usually ends with a *sigh* "oh well that's totally bogus, what can you do?". A negative note indeed. I know we have all been in that particular conversation at seminars and gatherings when we engage in small talk. The fun part of this all is in doing and learning. That's why I'm in it, or why I got into it and have to find my way back to...

My buddy from Mi. also asked me to announce something that may come as a shock to those in the drama pool.
In October this year, Guru Stevan Plinck will be in Traverse City for a Sera workshop ALONG SIDE OF Guru Jerry Jacobs from Pukulan Cimande Pusaka. That's right folks! I believe that these men are above all of the nonsense. And that they, and all the rest of us have everthing we ever got into all of this martial art stuff for to benifit from it too!
Bill G. says that you are ALL INVITED to come on up, and share in this.
BEFORE a moderator pulls the plug on this post, THIS IS NOT A 'PLUG' for the workshop. This is basiclly historical as far as current events are going. He asked me to Let Tristan (Oran Jawa)to know that he is invited to come, as are all of you! If you are interested, email Bill at mi8palms@hotmail.com for all of the info. Who knows, maybe this will be the day when walls crumble...
Thanks,
John

[Sgt_Major]

BEFORE a moderator pulls the plug on this post, THIS IS NOT A 'PLUG' for the workshop. This is basiclly historical as far as current events are going. He asked me to Let Tristan (Oran Jawa)to know that he is invited to come, as are all of you! If you are interested, email Bill at mi8palms@hotmail.com for all of the info. Who knows, maybe this will be the day when walls crumble...
Thanks,
John


I'm with this, I hope its a good turnout, and goes some way to rebuild walls in the Silat community.

With that in mind, I am tempted to close this thread, but at the same time I am interested in reading differing opinons globally, and not just rely on one sightline on something. There are good things to come from open, frank discussions, and threats/bully tactics only undermine the respect and integrity of the person doing those actions. As an impartial moderator, I will allow the discussion, but will not allow personal attacks of other members.

If things get worse, or I deem the discussion unproductive, I WILL close the thread.

Sarge

[tellner]

Just a minor correction, John. His name is spelled Stevan Plinck.

[realitychecker]

Sorry Todd, Sorry Guru Plinck! I was just so passionate about that post I blew all kinds of spellin'. Thank you!

[Orang Jawa]

my reply to Tristen .

Once again I am forced to state the obvious

Yada, yada, yada...
I was trying to be respectful and telling it like it is. What you do is not a traditional Cimande at best, what you are doing is Sander's Cimande. Be proud of it, Period.

Do you know who is Tries Sutrisno? He knew silat and he did not know Sukarma.

Not all people in Cimande Village studied Silat.
Not all people in Indonesian knows silat.
Ambasadors? Indonesian people they would happy to see anything that move resembles Silat. it does not meant the justify that what you are doing is right.

William, I heard about you, I saw your videos, I reserve my comments about it. I wish I can meet you one to one and asked some question about the meaning of your movement/self-defense techniques...Just you and me in a friendly way. Seriously :bang:

nuff said.
Tristan

[Orang Jawa]

John said:
BEFORE a moderator pulls the plug on this post, THIS IS NOT A 'PLUG' for the workshop. This is basiclly historical as far as current events are going. He asked me to Let Tristan (Oran Jawa)to know that he is invited to come, as are all of you! If you are interested, email Bill at mi8palms@hotmail.com for all of the info. Who knows, maybe this will be the day when walls crumble...
Thanks,
***************
Thank you John...
Eventhough I have spend all my adulthood in the USA, I'm still keep the Orang Jawa tradition. I'm a lot older than the presenter and spend more time in silat than them. They should have to come to my gathering first before I come to them. That's just the way it is. :)
BTW. I knew Stevan Plinck and I do respect him greatly.
No punts intended.
Tristan

[Tuankaki]

We're off to Reno today for a fun weekend with Guru Plinck and Guru Bob Vanatta. If only based on the folks who signed up in advance, it's going to be a great reunion of sorts. I'm looking forward to meeting some internet personalities too! I'll post a weekend report when we get back home, but I already know it's going to be a blast. I'm guaranteed to pick up some nuggets to add to my American Dutch Indo Fu.

[Buddy]

Mike,
If you get this in time, please send my respects to Guru Steve and Guru Bob.
Buddy

[Tuankaki]

Got it, will do Buddy.

[rizal]

You know, the steam in this thread reminded me when I went back to sumatra to visit my teacher. (it's an iseng thing, got a week furlough after a project and some extra money so....)

My teacher was surprised to see me. After pleasantries, he insisted me to stay an extra day so I can show my penca' in front of his student. After the exhibition (both kembangan and fighting), my teacher praised me in front of his students for maintaining my training.

In the end of the day, I asked him pointedly if I can teach. He smiled and said, "For those things I taught, you can never be a teacher." This of course somewhat broke my heart. But then he said while holding both of my hands, "but for those things you learn, you may."

Confused yet? Me too. But I realize that while I somewhat know the syllabus, I cannot teach it since my understanding of it is different for the founders. Yet it doesn't mean that my silat is bad, only that it is uniquely mine and based on the principles I develop.

The point? it is sad that many new schools today have so little confidence of themselves that they must resort to 'certification' and 'acknowledgement'. If you believe your style is silat, then teach it. Be proud of who and what you are. Sure, tracing your lineage is important, but it doesn't mean anything if your silat is bad. Every practicioner will see it and judge it as is.

And the one big organization with one Mahaguru? I think those guys watch too many 'Jiang Hu' movies.

[Steve Perry]

You know, the steam in this thread reminded me when I went back to sumatra to visit my teacher. (it's an iseng thing, got a week furlough after a project and some extra money so....)
.

What I find interesting in this thread is the reaction from a number of people who seem so distressed about the wrangling. As Chas Clements (a silat player) says, a bunch of martial artists get together and a fight breaks out? What a surprise ...

You want peace in the valley, become a Quaker.

It might be that the bickering is petty, although I disagree. When you are talking about investing some large measure of your time, and maybe some money, then it is maybe not a bad idea to have some idea if both are going to be well-spent. If you were, say, learning how to climb a rock wall and you were taught a way to grip that might save your life, that would be good to know. If you were shown a way to hold on that, in an emergency, would fail, causing you to fall and die, maybe you'd want to know that, too.

I certainly would.

It is true there are a lot of forceful personalities involved in silat and they have (and will continue to) clash. But isn't it better to know where the mines might be in a field than not? Knowledge is power.

I'm not pointing any fingers at the good, the bad, or the ugly. But I do feel the need to respond when somebody says something with which I disagree. And if they offer something that, in my mind, is wrong, allowing it to pass rather than addressing it doesn't serve anybody. I've said this before, but if I saw somebody who didn't know any better about to pick up a poisonous snake, I'd feel the need to point out that maybe it wasn't a good idea for him to do that. Simple ignorance ought not to be worth the death penalty.

So maybe disagreeing about an art's history or function or worth is petty. For me, if a position on something is worth having, it is worth defending. And as long as somebody is tossing rocks in my direction, I get to toss them back. If anybody ought to understand that, silat players should.

I'm not here to talk about passing gas while squatting in a horse stance, however funny that might be to some folks. Mel Brooks did that better in Blazing Saddles ...

[realitychecker]

"What I find interesting in this thread is the reaction from a number of people who seem so distressed about the wrangling. As Chas Clements (a silat player) says, a bunch of martial artists get together and a fight breaks out? What a surprise ..."

"You want peace in the valley, become a Quaker."


Thanks Steve, but I'm doing just fine the way I am without becoming something else. I don't think I'm at all distressed about there being peace in the valley. If that was the case, the power button to this computer is inches away.
Being the fighter that I am, I'm just sticking up for someone that I know personally that is being wronged along the line here. I'm also trying (in my meager years of experience) trying to bring light, and a positive diversion to the latter part of this thread. Pointing out the fact that I have learned to have an open mind, and to physically see for yourself whether a person 'has it' or not.

[Bobster]

I have been asked to say something on the topic of William Sanders, so I will speak from my knowledge alone, and not suppostition.

I paid a visit to Cimande village near Bogor in 1994 with the first training camp Bambang Suwanda held since the death of his brother Herman in 2000. There were several interesting things that happened during this trip, the first being my first involvement with Silat politics in Indonesia. I was wearing an old Mande Muda T-shirt around the village one morning, and I was approached by Pak Mama (who does indeed exist, as any Mande Muda Jagabaya can tell you). He thought I was looking for him because of the shirt I was wearing. I was actually trying to avoid him because my teacher (Bambang) and Mama don't get along very well (Pak Mama has started charging greatly inflated prices to train with him since he became popular in the old Mande Muda crowd) Trying to be gracious, I went with him to his house for a while, just to pay respects. At this point I saw his wall covered with certificates, weapons and photographs. One of the photos had William Sanders in it, with Pak Mama. I was surprised to see this, but I didn't stay any later because I didn't want Bam to catch me there.

As to rank, I cannot comment on that, I was not there. I can only validate the two conflicts:

1: There is indeed a Pak Mama in Cimande.
2: He knows William Sanders.

That's all I can tell you.

[Pekir]

Some of the posts are refering to a silat brotherhood. Maybe it's time for a wake up call and start wondering if there ever was a silat brotherhood and if there will ever be. Just te be sure, a brotherhood is not the same as national/world organization.

It's not that long ago that I was suprised that the arguments in the 'new world' were practically the same as in Europe. But as far as Europe I doubt there is grounds for the assumption of a brotherhood. There never was a sense of brotherhood between the two schools in the city I grew up. There was never a true sense of brotherhood between a lot of schools around the country. And from the Indonesian Elders that I spoke (and my teachers teacher) I got the impression there was no such thing in Indonesia too.

A brotherhood needs (among other things) a common set of values and mutual respect. So where in this world can one see a silat brotherhood? At best there is a string of different brotherhoods.

As far as I'm concerned I hope to meet a lot of (international) silat practitioners and hope te get along OK, with some I might even become good friends. Others may at least have my deepest respect and I hope it will be mutual. With some I know it will never work and respect will be a problem for the rest of our lives.

Worldpeace might be an easier goal to accomplish :)

[Steve Perry]

I'm just sticking up for someone that I know personally that is being wronged along the line here. I'm also trying (in my meager years of experience) trying to bring light, and a positive diversion to the latter part of this thread. Pointing out the fact that I have learned to have an open mind, and to physically see for yourself whether a person 'has it' or not.

I'm all for open-mindedness, and deciding if somebody who makes a claim has it or not; that's not my argument. Never has been. What I was doing was minding my own business when all of a sudden I looked up and there is a stranger throwing rocks at me. In the form of "There's no such thing as the art you say you do."

Hello?

Then the guy on the other side of the street tosses one: "Yeah, you have a little piece of it, but your teacher is very limited in what he knows, and he doesn't have the whole system, whereas I do."

Now, in a perfect world, I'd ignore this. (Of course, in a perfect world, there wouldn't be anybody making such foolish statements.)

And they are foolish statements, from where I sit.

That a guru in Silat Terrific has a personal argument with a guru of Silat Wonderful doesn't concern me -- until one or the other of the drags me into it by allowing as how what I do is every so much less worthy than what they do.

In this case, both of these teachers, along with more than a few of their senior students have, in their fight, thrown garbage our way. And, not to put too fine a point on it, their claims regarding us are horse-hockey.

I have tried to talk to both these men and was essentially told by them both that I was full of hooey. Fine.

I am old, slow, and not particularly adept as a silat player; however, if any of their students want to demonstrate how ineffective what we do is, they are welcome to drop round my place and show me the error of my ways. I have an open mind.

If I just sit back and let those claims pass, there are folks out there who will nod and say, "Well, it must be true, otherwise somebody would call 'em on it, right?"

Well, it isn't true, and I am here to tell you that every time I see one of them or their students rear up and start to blather, I am apt to call them on it.

This is an old feud, it goes way back, and it continues because the two major players hate each other more than they want peace. As soon as it starts to die down, one or the other or both throw bit more gasoline onto the coals and it flares up again.

I haven't spoken to the skills or teaching abilities of Maha Guru Terrific or Pendekar Wonderful, only to their statements regarding what I do. These guys are so busy slinging mud at each other that it slops over onto people who a) don't deserve it and b) ain't gonna take it.

I buy my ink by the barrel and have occasion to spend a lot of time at the keyboard, and when somebody shoots, I can shoot back.

Anybody has a problem with that, the complaint department is one flight up.

[Orang Jawa]

I was actually trying to avoid him because my teacher (Bambang) and Mama don't get along very well (Pak Mama has started charging greatly inflated prices to train with him since he became popular in the old Mande Muda crowd) Trying to be gracious, I went with him to his house for a while, just to pay respects. At this point I saw his wall covered with certificates, weapons and photographs. One of the photos had William Sanders in it, with Pak Mama. I was surprised to see this, but I didn't stay any later because I didn't want Bam to catch me there.

This is my opinon..Please don't have a heart attack! :)
If there is indeed Pak Mama, then he is part of commercial Cimande Schools that abundant lately in Indonesia. Money is evil to some degree. :confused:

Bobster, have you visited Pak Ace? He is one of the prominant Cimande in Indonesia. If Pak Ace give his blessing to William Sanders as the recepient and the founder of Cimande Pusaka. Everyone would respect him as one of the prominent Cimande player.
I'm not discrediting Sanders on his achievement. He is done good for his silat system. However, he is not representative of Cimande, for sure he is not represent me. I spoke to him along time ago and suggested why he is not claiming his achievement by naming his silat, Sander's Cimande?

I saw his silat videos, some of the movement look like cimande but he added many of the form/jurus/lankah is not a Pure Cimande. For example: Cimande is Sundanese origin, in the video he was showing a rencong wich is Aceh origin. You can't claim a pure cimande when you are mixed match with other system. There is nothing wrong with adding for betterment of the silat. However, be truthfull. A black coffee is no longer black when you are adding cream and sugar in it. Is still coffee but not a black coffee.
Now I need a coffee, :rolleyes:
Tristan

[Narrue]

"As always I HIGHLY recommend that anyone who wishes to compare what they do to what we do to attend a seminar from both arts , by a tape of both ways, examine them closely and ask yourself which way would I rather move and fight like and then make that choice and have fun"

William Sanders

I don’t see what’s wrong with this approach i.e. purchase a tape "and ask yourself which way would I rather move and fight like"

[Bobster]

This is my opinon..Please don't have a heart attack!

GAAAAAHHHHH!!! Too late!! Call 911!!! *HEAVE* - *DEATH RATTLE*

If there is indeed Pak Mama, then he is part of commercial Cimande Schools that abundant lately in Indonesia.

I THINK he just teaches privately now, I know he has a lot of foreign students. As I said, I didn't ever train with him.

Bobster, have you visited Pak Ace? He is one of the prominant Cimande in Indonesia. If Pak Ace give his blessing to William Sanders as the recepient and the founder of Cimande Pusaka. Everyone would respect him as one of the prominent Cimande player.


I know who Pak Ace is, but have never met him. Please let me be clear about this: I CANNOT validate William Sander's claim to Pendekarship or representation of Cimande village, and I wasn't trying to do so. I wasn't there. I only wanted to state that Pak Mama does exist, and has met/trained with William Sanders. Who gave what to whom, I cannot say.

Also, I want to say something about the latest round of mud-slinging: This **** is so old, Moses stepped in it. It's so old, Mushtaq Ali remembers when it was shat. He probably owned the cow. Now, THAT'S OLD. By now, everybody with about 10 years (or more) experience in martial arts, and Pencak Silat in particular, knows what's going on. You know who trained where, and how good they are. You know some teachers by thier excellence alone, such as Stevan Plinck and Herman Suwanda. Others, you will know by word simply "getting around" or by infamy of thier deeds & words (I won't name names here, if it sounds like someone you know, it probably is).

To all the newbies in Silat, I say this: Look around you. Before you join a class, do some homework. The web can give you a good picture of how things are, but it can distort facts as well. Check around, ask questions, do some research. It's your butt on the line here. THEY are just as lucky to have YOU as a student, remember that.

Old timers, there is nothing I can say that hasn't already been said, killed, dug back up and kicked around. Most of you are my seniors anyway, some of you were actually there when it happened. At minimum, I don't think the dust will clear anytime soon, the base arguments are still being fueled by three senile old men who point thier fingers and mutter things to thier students, & then sit back to watch the fireworks. The students, being loyal students, take up the mantle and charge into battle filled with self-righteousness. I'm hoping that we can all sit down to some curry & beer together in about 10 years and laugh about this. It's a long shot, but I'm kind famous for that.

[Orang Jawa]

I know who Pak Ace is, but have never met him. Please let me be clear about this: I CANNOT validate William Sander's claim to Pendekarship or representation of Cimande village, and I wasn't trying to do so. I wasn't there. I only wanted to state that Pak Mama does exist, and has met/trained with William Sanders. Who gave what to whom, I cannot say.

Salam Bobster,
Understood...Thanks for the info. :)

Also, I want to say something about the latest round of mud-slinging: This **** is so old, Moses stepped in it. It's so old, Mushtaq Ali remembers when it was shat. He probably owned the cow. Now, THAT'S OLD. By now, everybody with about 10 years (or more) experience in martial arts, and Pencak Silat in particular, knows what's going on.

You got that right bro, how's Mushtaq Ali doing? I have not heard from him fro along time. If you saw him, send my regards. :)

Old timers, there is nothing I can say that hasn't already been said, killed, dug back up and kicked around. Most of you are my seniors anyway, some of you were actually there when it happened. At minimum, I don't think the dust will clear anytime soon, the base arguments are still being fueled by three senile old men who point thier fingers and mutter things to thier students, & then sit back to watch the fireworks. The students, being loyal students, take up the mantle and charge into battle filled with self-righteousness. I'm hoping that we can all sit down to some curry & beer together in about 10 years and laugh about this. It's a long shot, but I'm kind famous for that

Wise word my friend.
Tristan

[Kiai Carita]

......As I said before come along and play / spar with my students and tell them where they gone wrong at, explain to them that the way they move is not Cimande, because it seems you the only one saying this. I like you to explain to these humble silat guys in Dublin why the art they doing is not silat. Because I really would like to know. To help If you want I will pay your flight accross from UK arrange your pick up at airport and bring you to class. All you need is your training gear. Let me know when it suits. you wont need to spend a single cent. So dont hide behind any more smoke screens, you talk the talk now walk the walk. I want to see this Cimande you talk about and if we wrong it be easy to see when you play. All I asked is that we video the session so we can learn from our mistakes

......

Liam


Warm salaams to all,

Liam, you are a Guru Besar in Cimande, right? I do not do Cimande. I just know that Sanders' Cimande ain't the real thing, because seniors in Cimande have said that. And his certificate looks well dodgy because of the mistakes in the wording. That is all I say, I don't say that wat you do is not silat, rather it is not as Cimande as Sanders would have you believe.

As to fighting or sparring or walking the walk, Sanders and you and anyone is welcome to come to my Sunday evening silat and gamelan happening in the Stables Market in Camden. Whatever, your Cimande is not the real thing. I think that Mas Tristan's posts clarify that well enough. You can beat me up and kill me but still your Cimande is bogus.

It is not that what you do is not silat. It is silat, formulated by Sanders. However writing a book about keris without studying Jawanese is still not recomended. Just as posing for a photograph dressed like a Sundanese groom but brandishing a naked keris on the frontpage of your www.cimande.com website, is very rude.

Please do drop in to the Stables Market.

Warm Salaams to all,

Bram

[Orang Jawa]

What I find interesting in this thread is the reaction from a number of people who seem so distressed about the wrangling. As Chas Clements (a silat player) says, a bunch of martial artists get together and a fight breaks out? What a surprise ...

You want peace in the valley, become a Quaker.

Brother Steve,
I have to disagre with you on this, its have happened but not always.
I have hosted 23rd of annual gathering. People come from all over the world to attended this gathering. Indonesian, Japanese, Korean, Philiphine, and Chinese Martial Arts students practice together, discusss things (verbally and phisically-the person have to show us what he meant), have a few drinks and discuss some more, eat and drink sand discuss more martial arts mixed with a war stories and finally drinks, dance, do some movements sialt or whatever and have the biggest laughs.

Many of us are a combat veteran from Vietnam, Grenada, Desser Storm, Iraq and Aghanistan war, current and or vets of Police and security details. So we are not a pussy to say to speaks :)

Not once we come to the situation where one person shouts to each other let alone fight. I WILL NOT LET THAT HAPPEN in my watch :)
We are lovers not fighters by all means :)
Warm regard to all,
Tristan

[Rebo Paing]

Salute! There are some good strong attitudes on this forum, Mas Tristan, Steve Perry, Bobster, Rizal, Gajah Silat, Pekir, Sgt Major, Narrue, Kiai Carita, Suleiman ... and if I've missed any ma'af lahir bathin ya, I apologise in front!

Steve is right, we are not a Quakers Society. We are loosely associated through silat :D .

Just a thought though ... sometimes we might worry unduly about what this and that person claims ... Sudahlah! Akhirnya air akan berpisah dengan minyak, water will separate from oil, meaning that people will be attracted that which they deserve. That is true for everyone in life, and this is just a forum :eek: .

Salam

[Rebo Paing]

Many of us are a combat veteran from Vietnam, Grenada, Desser Storm, Iraq and Aghanistan war, current and or vets of Police and security details. So we are not a pussy to say to speaks

Ahh! The left-overs of the imperial guard? :D

Yes I agree, it's nearly always the case when people face to face reality sets in and we usually nice, even when we not pussy's (hehe ... that is such a terrible description! :o ).

We see the human when face to face.

[Pekir]

[I]
Yes I agree, it's nearly always the case when people face to face reality sets in and we usually nice, even when we not pussy's (hehe ... that is such a terrible description! :o ).
We see the human when face to face.

I agree it most of the times works that way. I would like to add though that having a major disagreement shouldn't 'hurt' as much as it often seems to do on forums like this. I personally have no appreciation for the commercial advertising and exploitation of some of our silat 'brothers' using words "like the deadliest MA in the world" and such. This only means I don't favor their choices and doesn't neccesarily says anything about my appreciation for the persons behind it. All to often this difference is not singled out and things are taken personal when they are not.

I only have a small group of truely good/best friends and none of them are without 'handicaps' and it is most certainly the same the other way around. The same goes for my silat friends and me :)

Hormat Perkir

[Narrue]

writing a book about keris without studying Jawanese is still not recomended. Just as posing for a photograph dressed like a Sundanese groom but brandishing a naked keris on the frontpage of your www.cimande.com website, is very rude.

Well I must say there is lots of Varity in that photo, a Californian Pendekar who practices a Javanese style silat dressed in a Sundanese wedding outfit holding a Balinese keris.

[Steve Perry]

Well I must say there is lots of Varity in that photo, a Californian Pendekar who practices a Javanese style silat dressed in a Sundanese wedding outfit holding a Balinese keris.

You have good eyes that you can tell the keris is Balinese from that itty-bitty photo. I'd guess the same, but only because of the length -- I can't determine the pamor, though it does seem to be a nine-luk blade and heavy.

In defense of Sanders writing a book about the keris, a couple of things:

First, whatever you might argue about his rank, he obviously has spent some time in Indonesia and, one assumes, has picked up some bits of Bahasa.

Second, there have been some very good books written about the keris in English and Dutch, and with the help of a good dictionary, one can do rough translations of some of the material written about the blades in Bahasa Indonesian, albeit that is a slow process (speaking from experience here.)

If you have access to some material -- Tammen's three-volume encyclopedia, De Keris: Magic Relic of Old Indonesia (in English and Dutch) or von Zonneveld's Traditional Weapons of the Indonesian Archipelago (English and German versions, I believe), along with a handful of shorter works, ranging from English to Australian to Hawaiian refererences, as well as some pretty good internet resources, you could put together a fair basic book on the making, care, and feeding, as well as the history of, the keris.

Third, I'm in touch with Alan Maisey, who is one of the more knowledgeable Indonesian blade dealers in the western world, an Australian married to a Javanese woman. Maisey is fluent in the language, visits Java every year or two, and has written about Indonesian weaponry. Maisey was trained by an empu, and understands the construction and care of the keris. I happen to know that Sanders is also in contact with Maisey.

Fourth, if you have an Indonesian teacher who can pass along what he knows about the things, that can help, too.

Sanders knows more about the keris now than he once did -- some of his earlier written material is lacking, and demonstration of extensive forms using the dagger seem unlikely to have come from traditional Tjimande sources. The keris hasn't been used as a weapon as much as it has a talisman for a long time.

I could write a book about the keris -- I have a small collection of them gathered over some years, Malay Peninsula, Javanese, Balinese -- and while such a book would not have the depth of one written anybody with any real expertise, it would certainly have things that most people wouldn't know about, even a fair number of silat players.

[Narrue]

You have good eyes that you can tell the keris is Balinese from that itty-bitty photo. I'd guess the same, but only because of the length -- I can't determine the pamor, though it does seem to be a nine-luk blade and heavy.

I think its Balinese because as you said the blade is very long, much longer then his forearm plus the gayaman is Bali (godoan) style (probably made from molar material) with what looks like a gold sheath. Actually quite a classy keris.

[Kiai Carita]

..........
Third, I'm in touch with Alan Maisey, who is one of the more knowledgeable Indonesian blade dealers in the western world, an Australian married to a Javanese woman. Maisey is fluent in the language, visits Java every year or two, and has written about Indonesian weaponry. Maisey was trained by an empu, and understands the construction and care of the keris. I happen to know that Sanders is also in contact with Maisey.

Fourth, if you have an Indonesian teacher who can pass along what he knows about the things, that can help, too.

Warm salaams to all,

Indeed, Pak Steve, Pak Alan Maisey is the Western authority on keris. My impression is that all writers before him were colonialists and often made simple mistakes like explaining the ron-dha as a widow (randha) rather than ron (leaf) dha (the letter dha) and other small things like that. Pak Alan spent along time near Solo and worked with a lot of the Solo Mpus especially, if I am not mistaken, Pak Pauzan. Haryono Haryoguritno and the late Bambang Harsrinuksmo are his Indonesian counterparts. And there is a keris lovers mailing list called javakeris too where people can talk and learn about keris.

Sanders' keris appears to be a naga type, I think the pamor is kelengan, with a kinatah naga in gold it looks like: A keris meant to lead and inspire fear in opponents. At any rate he should not be brandishing it on his front page unless it is his intention to challenge anyone interested.

Looking at the USA ranking system on Sanders' website it seems that people who made it do not know much Indonesian at all. Nearly all the ranks are in wierd Indonesian, not to say wrong. Pelajarn, Guru Baharu and so on...

And since when did Cimande silat use the keris?

Warm salaams to all,
Bram.

[Gajah Silat]

I'm hoping that we can all sit down to some curry & beer together in about 10 years and laugh about this. It's a long shot, but I'm kind famous for that.

Well, self praise is no praise, but I cook a fine beef rendang :D Dry, tender, meat falling to pieces just as it should be....but I've found it goes better with a fine British Ale than the ol' Bintang ;) I actually found a shop that sells Bintang in the UK so we had a sate & Bintang night. :)

That's cultural diffusionalism for yer!

[Bobster]

GAJAH!!!!

Could you believe I had a SUPER sized bottle of Bintang just about every night we were in Bali last month?!? Got one for Pendekar Bam as well, & it put a smile across his face also!! It really gets the job done, especially with a spicy Indian dinner being served by beautiful Balinese girls. Man, what great memories...I kept thinking I had died & didn't go to hell after all. Also, I still have your beef rendang recipe, very interesting indeed. Gotta go for that, probably this weekend.

You know what would be cool? A silat-curry symposium, evrybody gets together, trains, eats, has a beer & shares Silat stories about our teachers. I mean, what's not to like? I have a huge DVD collection, I'm sure we could find something interesting, or just go back out & train again. Inebriated.

We could, perhaps, leave the political scat to the politicians & just have a good time.

[Orang Jawa]

And since when did Cimande silat use the keris?

I'm wondering out loud too :bang:
Things to ponder:
Sparring with the same silat student will help a great deal but we must be very careful that we are not becomes complecent with it

Dancing fight, walking around the ring, IT DOES NOT WORK in tournament fight. In my days, when I saw the Kung fu students started making sound and moving his hand like a monkey, I scored three painfully points before he finish saying MOMMy! Moving your hands like monkey? You will make a monkey of yourself.

They told me that the way I fought like a bloody Irishman and they gave me a nick name: Tris O'Malley :)
My compliment to you all Irishman.

Tournament is good for self test and self confidence, you doing it all alone.
In an empty hand or weapons Form/kata, You will be judge by your pears, if you are sucks then be it, if you are good you will win their approval. There is no butt. That's the way it is, it is your responsibility to show that your form have meaning.

In Self-Defense, you will be judge by how effective your techniques are, not the uniform your wore.

In fighting, the objective is not to get hit and score point or clearly hit your opponent regardless the judges see them or not. One time in the tournament my opponent unable to continue the fights, prior to that, none of the judges give me a points, they kept saying a clash. yeap, clash all right :)

To anyone, if you are really wants to know how good you are? Compete in the Open Karate tournament. In the USA, you can compete every week, if your heart desire :)

In the 70's I have not seen any silat student fight in the open tournament, none! BTW, I competed for three years and have a good times with it.
Just my worthless thought,
Tristan

[Orang Jawa]

Well, self praise is no praise, but I cook a fine beef rendang :D Dry, tender, meat falling to pieces just as it should be....but I've found it goes better with a fine British Ale than the ol' Bintang ;) I actually found a shop that sells Bintang in the UK so we had a sate & Bintang night. :)

That's cultural diffusionalism for yer!

LOL, GS, you are pissing me off now. Here I'm eating Mc Donald Chicken tender and you are having beef rendang :bang:
Any left over, will you kindly overnight it to Pennsylvania :)
Selamat makan,
Tristan

[realitychecker]

Bill, will you please forward this to John, so he can
>put it on the MAP forum. Thanks, Jerry
>
>Bram, Tristan and Steve,
>I have spent a great deal of time the last few days
>contemplating what my response should be to the
>ridiculous and ignorant statements made about my
>teacher Pendekar William Sanders and our system of
>Pencak Silat Pukulan Cimande Pusaka. That's right
>Steve, I said ignorant. If you have never met William
>Sanders or trained in our style of Cimande then you
>are ignorant of PCP, and you have no grounds to speak
>of its validity as a fighting art. Tristan, if you
>have trained in "traditional Cimande" and you adhere
>to the Orang Jawa ways, and you are such a humble
>pesilat, then why is your entire website about selling
>instructional videos? William Sanders website has
>information on Cimande history, lineage, jurus, dance,
>music, etc. If his sole purpose is to make money off
>cimande, then why isn't his entire website just about
>selling books and videos? Hmm. You say that Pukulan
>Cimande Pusaka is not traditional Cimande. That is
>correct. That's why it's not just called "Cimande".
>Our system is a combination of Cimande, Cikalong, Sera
>and Ular. The art taught by Willy Wetzel and John
>Malter was called "Pukulan Cimande". After 12 years of
>training in this system, William Sanders started to
>look for other Cimande teachers both here in the U.S.
>and in Indonesia. After several more years of training
>he was tested in Pendekar Banten and awarded the title
>of Pendekar. That's it! If you gentleman don't believe
>it, or are jealous, then so be it, but that's just the
>way it is. I have videos of Pendekar Mama Sukarma and
>his students practicing the Cimande Jurus Tangan,
>Jurus Pepedangan Cimande, Jurus Tepak Selancar, etc.
>Many of our students have been to West Java and put on
>demos, sparred and trained with Cimande players from,
>Bogor, Bandung, Cianjur, etc. All of them were
>speachless at how good our students movement was and
>could not do any thing aginst it. So if it's not
>traditional Cimande then so be it, but I'll stick with
>it! My offer still stands, if any of you would like to
>experience it in person, you are invited to the
>Pendekar Sanders Seminar in Port Huron, Michigan on
>September 9 & 10 or the Seminar in Traverse City,
>Michigan with myself and Stevan Plinck on October 14 &
>15. Bram, Tristan and Steve are all invited as my
>guests. You will not have to pay any seminar fees, and
>I will even pay for your hotel. That's it! This is
>your chance to see this art and meet Pendekar Sanders
>in person and gain first hand knowledge of what our
>system is all about. I hope you can make it.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Jerry Jacobs

[Orang Jawa]

Tristan, if you
>have trained in "traditional Cimande" and you adhere
>to the Orang Jawa ways, and you are such a humble
>pesilat, then why is your entire website about selling
>instructional videos?

Salam Guru Jerry or now is Guru Besar Jerry. I think you should read the caution on my video, it is not intended for intruction. I have never claimed the video is Cimande techniques. I have never claimed that I teach Cimande. The video was the result of a seminar I gave at Bob Orlando School, he took the video, we never plan to make is as a video. My student insisted that could be helpfull to others, at the end I agree. He did everthing, he is the one deserve the credit for the video, I'm only annoying person in the video. FYI, I don't have nothing to do with the website. My student is. Coincedently, I told him last night not to renew the contract, therefore, we are closing the website as of today. imagine that? ;)
I'm working on a Silat book, so lets see what happen :)

After 12 years of training in this system, William Sanders started to
look for other Cimande teachers both here in the U.S.
and in Indonesia.

Could you elaborate more? How long that Pendekar Sanders studied in Indonesia? two weeks? a month? once a year or three times in the past ten years, three to four week at the times? In case you did not know Guru Jerry, the truth shall set you free. :bang:

After several more years of training he was tested in Pendekar Banten and awarded the title of Pendekar. That's it!

Please tell us, of how long that Pendekar Sanders studied Cimande with Sukarma? I meant dailty study, one to one with him? I do not recall that William Sanders stayed over ten years in Indonesia. Again in Cimande, ten years studied with one teacher will make you a beginer. I have been in Silat for 50 years and still a beginer. Your guru must a genious man, he got his pendekarship in three weeks training or may be a total a month? Correct me If I'm wrong. Since you are on this subject, what ever happen with Suryadi Jafri? He the one introduce William Sanders to Silat guru in Indonesia?

Thank you for the invites but not thanks! ;)
First of all, I will not give up my honeymoon to see your teacher.
Lastly, I'm his senior in age and in silat for whatever its worth. I do not visited him first, the younger one is always visited the oldman. That's our tradition. However, I really like to meet him one to one, just him and I, I guarranty there will be no harm done, it is a friendly invites. My gathering will be at Scranton, Pennsylvania, on August 24th, 2006. I will be teaching from 10am-10pm. Tell him to call me. 570-985-8813. I wanted to be respectfull to him but his students always doing the attack dog. If a students reflection of his teacher. What can I say about him?
Warm regards?
Peace!
Tristan

[Kiai Carita]

Bill, will you please forward this to John, so he can
>put it on the MAP forum. Thanks, Jerry .....

So if it's not traditional Cimande then so be it, but I'll stick with
>it! My offer still stands, if any of you would like to
>experience it in person, you are invited to the
>Pendekar Sanders Seminar in Port Huron, Michigan on
>September 9 & 10 or the Seminar in Traverse City,
>Michigan with myself and Stevan Plinck on October 14 &
>15. Bram, Tristan and Steve are all invited as my
>guests. You will not have to pay any seminar fees, and
>I will even pay for your hotel. That's it! This is
>your chance to see this art and meet Pendekar Sanders
>in person and gain first hand knowledge of what our
>system is all about. I hope you can make it.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Jerry Jacobs

Salaams Mr Jacobs!

I understand you are also a Guru Besar in Cimande? Well, your post does actually clear things up a little as does Mr Sanders' new welcome message on his website. I am happy that the obnoxious photo of a Sunda groom brandishing a Bali keris is not there anymore. Honestly it did not look nice at all, and did appear to be a challenge to anyone opening the site. I am happy that Mr Sanders has responded positively to the discussions on this thread.

I am happy that you have a very efficient fighting art, better than what is in West Jawa. You do need to explain the name to Indonesians though because in Indonesian, Pukulan Cimande Pusaka appears to claim to be the original and most sacred Cimande - (the Pusaka). It would be also nice if you say where the keris forms come from? As far as I know in Jawa there are no keris used in silat and the kujang was first introduced to silat by Mande Muda.

The difference of the choise of names in Mande Muda and PCP is obvious. The Mande Muda people respected the elders of Cimande and because they were going to spice it up for the USA they respectfully called themselves Muda, young. However PCP takes for itself a lofty name, Pusaka, when it is obviousely not a Pusaka - who ever heard about patricide in traditional silat unless it was in the Wetzel murder case in USA 1970s? How can a lineage that is tainted with patricide be a pusaka? However if it is pusaka to you then so be it.

As for your invitation I cannot accept because travelling to the USA is too much hassle for me and I don't know if I could get a visa especially as your website says that the Mas Jut character was involved in Darul Islam (you spell it wrong, Dawruh) it means that your art has terrorist connections. Did you know that Darul Islam / Negara Islam Indonesia / Tentara Islam Indonesia (DI/TII/NII) are the ideological source of the recent JI (Jemaah Islamiyah) a terrorist organisation according to the USA and still a source of militants for Indonesia's domestic terror problems. Is it OK for you in the USA to be affiliated to a terrorist organisation? Does this come out in your new book? By the way, this organisation is still alive in Indonesia and the spokesman for NII, Al Chaidar, often writes in the main media. They want an Islamic state in Indonesia and the way the USA is behaving in Afghanistan and Irak and Lebanon surely is helping them alot.

Guru Besar Jerry Jacobs, I would also like to invite you and yours to come any Sunday evening to the Stable Market in Camden. If Liam comes as well we will make history by having two Guru Besars in Cimande in one spot. In Indonesia it is well known that there are no Guru Besar in Cimande. So it would be really novel to meet you.

Warm salaams to all,
Bram.

[AnakMurid]

anyone know who founded this:

https://cimande.dev.java.net/

IT world seems inspied by Javanese Silat. You got the programming language JAVA, then its offshoot, KERIS, now this. Interested to know why this is so.

[silatliam]

Hi Kiai

Thank you for your offer of attending your event. I take it now that you won't take me up on my offer to come along to my group in Dublin, even though you misinformed people on this website that you couldnt go because we would charge (which wasnt true) and now after offering you free flights, transport , food you still wont do it.
You keep talking about things, that we westerners do that is rude, but is it not rude in the Indonesian culture to refused to accept the hospitality of a fellow silat player? Especially since we did visit you at your event last year, by sending Gavin to Represent us and he did help you help you out, when few other did, and then you turned on us because he couldnt make one night because of work.

This offer of hospitality comes from all of us in Ireland including Gavin, we all do want to meet you. So why won't you come and explain to us?
We have shown the respect in visiting you, or you not going to show the respect back!
Looking forward to meeting you.

Liam

[tellner]

Let's see....

Curry. Political sniping. Beer. Lineage wars.

Tough choice. Curry and beer for me. Last night one of my teacher's students - Big Jason for those who know him - was stuck near Portland because the D.O.T. went over his trucking log and decided to give him an enforced 10 hour rest. We went for Thai food over on Alberta Street and then trained. The Siam Society makes a killer Panang Curry and a very good Massaman Chicken Curry. No beer that night. I had enough in Reno at the seminar to last me for a long time.

[Bobster]

Gonna be you 'n me alone on that one, Todd.

[Bobster]

the kujang was first introduced to silat by Mande Muda.

I beg your pardon? Do you get to Bandung much?

The Mande Muda people respected the elders of Cimande and because they were going to spice it up for the USA they respectfully called themselves Muda, young.

It wasn't because they were going to "Spice it up", it was because the Suwandas are Cimande by blood, something few (if any) people here can claim. Cimande was (and still is) the base style taught in Mande Muda, as well as Sundanese Silat. And there is nothing "Added" to our Cimande to spice it up, the Jurus are unchanged.

Exactly where are you getting this information from? For that matter, who is your teacher?

[Steve Perry]

Bill, will you please forward this to John, so he can
>put it on the MAP forum. Thanks, Jerry
>
>Bram, Tristan and Steve,
>I have spent a great deal of time the last few days
>contemplating what my response should be to the
>ridiculous and ignorant statements made about my
>teacher Pendekar William Sanders and our system of
>Pencak Silat Pukulan Cimande Pusaka. That's right
>Steve, I said ignorant. If you have never met William
>Sanders or trained in our style of Cimande then you
>are ignorant of PCP, and you have no grounds to speak
>of its validity as a fighting art. >Jerry Jacobs

With all due respect, Guru Jacobs, would you show me where I spoke to the validity of PCP as a fighting art? Or offered disrespect to Pendekar Sanders ability as a fighter or teacher?

I don't believe his version of history; I don't find his evidence enough to justify changing what I have learned. How does that make me ignorant?

I allowed as how we disagreed on the history of my art, and that the evidence Pendekar Sanders has regarding this is not compelling. (I also allowed as how some of his early material on the keris is less well-informed than it is now, and that as far as I knew, traditional Tjimande did not offer keris forms as part of its instruction, given the nature of what the keris represents to Indonesians. This material is in books and vids from the PCP organization, and, having seen them, I use them as my basis for saying such.)

Also, I offered a defense of Pendekar Sanders's ability to write a book about the keris.

If you can point out where I erred in these comments, I'll be happy to tender an apology.

This has been an ongoing problem with the PCP's relationship with the rest of the silat players in the U.S. -- the tendency to lump any and all critics in together as enemies. I had a long and quite involved discussion with Pendekar Sanders about all this -- ask him about it -- and in the end, we agreed to disagree. He sent me new videos so that I could see what he did, and I responded to those without any insult. I didn't do any of this as a representative of Guru Plinck or anybody else but on my own hook, because a mutual friend allowed as how Sanders wasn't such a bad guy and maybe I should check it out.

That's the impression I came away with, and my public stance since. I didn't walk away with any particular bad feelings, nor did, I think, did Pendekar Sanders. He thinks he is right, I believe that I am. That's what makes a horse race.

I haven't argued that what PCP is or does is invalid. I merely pointed out that my art's history looks different from where I sit than where Pendekar Sanders sits, and that nothing he has said thus far gives me reason to dump my version for his.

That Sanders is going to publish a book that will -- he believes -- demonstrate that the senior teachers in my system are all essentially a bunch of liars does not, in my mind, seem to be an olive branch in the offing. Hence my comment on the matter: If you want peace, you have to stop shooting, that's necessary on both sides of the battle lines.

If you want to pound on me for something I said, fine, but look to be sure that's what I said before you do. I didn't start out to be an enemy here, and if you want to make me one, that's on you. You probably don't need any more, but that's your choice.

[silatliam]

My teacher Pendekar Sanders asked me to post this letter in on his behalf in response to remarks made earlier by Kiai.


I have no attack dogs that have some how prevented Tristen from being respectful to me as he said , if so who are they and where did they start the attack on this thread ????? As Usual this whole "attack" sequence started with the rude post by Kia that brought liam out asking why again with not a single bad word from us we were being insulted . But anyone who can read can just go back through the posts and. see that .

Despite the rude behavior of Kia and others I will try and remain a professional and address your silly remarks as best I can . Of course I understand it really does not matter what we say . some will scrutinize my website .look closely at our attire , try to find one thing out of place to magnify their hate on and in the latest case twist words , omit words , in an unbelievably slanderous and now REALLY liable way .

2. We have no Keris forms BUT we have the knowledge of how to fight with a Keris which some of my teachers had the knowledge of.

3. I think it is not a good thing to be talking badly about Mande Muda and the late great Herman Suwanda and shows real rudeness, saying he just spiced up his art for the USA .Mande Muda was taught in Indonesia before it ever came here. Pendekar Suwanda, which of course you keep ignoring, produced a video on the Keris system where like me he showed Keris fighting techniques. he did not make these up and we discussed these Keris techniques when I met him around 1986 in CA at a demo he did with his Late father , so he was one teacher who shared the keris fighting with me and explained its ancient roots as did his Father . If you say it did not exist then you are also calling him a liar, as he and his Father told me it came from his teachers in Java just as the others who also showed me these very old and not often now seen ways of using the Keris . Pendekar Jafri also shared his Keris Techniques with me and was the first to show me Kujang Jurus and fighting applications, but he was not Mande Muda so once again you are saying Pendekar Suwanda made up the Kujung techniques which is a lie and another slam to Mande muda which does not deserve this word twisting. Pendekar Mama in Cimande village also has an entire set of Kujang fighting Jurus which are from Cimande, go and he will show them to you. Tell them they don’t exist, see how silly you are ????? Maybe you can discover his socks don’t match in color and you can point that out as a big deal, or some other tiny thing to sink those trouble making teeth into. I am sure you will find such relevant stuff. Now their was a question as to what Happened to Pendekar Jafri my dear friend and teacher , Tristen I will assume the best for you , that when you made the remark which sounded a bit like it was a slam , like Yeah where did HE wind up .Well Tristen ,My teacher and Friend is dead. Has been for some time due to a disease and I am sure you were not really speaking ill of him, right? By the way the rencong etc was taught to me by Pendekar Jafri and again as I have said a thousand times ( funny they cant seem to find that part on my web site )what we do is not traditional Cimande only , but Cimande with the added things my teachers contributed to . The word Pusaka is a family Heirloom, valuable and old and it was Pendekar Jafri's idea to add this to the end of my art and he explained it this way. He said when a man gets Keris made and passes it on to his generations it becomes their Pusaka. You have developed an art you are passing on from this point to your students and it will become then their Pusaka. In addition he realized I had spotted a certain type of movement in the various teachers he introduced me to that I really liked. He told me that was the way very old Silat moved before the introduction of sport etc , it was the old Pusaka way of movement he said ,so it all fit and I did not just wake up one day pound my fist on the Kitchen table and invent the name as it was with his blessing and suggestion. He was at the time the official representative to the USA from Indonesia on Silat . Later that position was taken by the late Pendekar Suwanda .I am giving you the facts here for those who really want to know and are not just looking for another word or tiny nit picky thing to launch a tirade at .

NOW for the latest absurd remark about Mas Jud and a terro group, saying the most stupid thing that we have ties to it . First of all as usual words were taken out of context , the message on my website makes it clear that in the early 1960's Mas Jud some how got involved with this group and THEN REALIZING THEY WERE NOT GOOD PICKED UP HIS ENTIRE FAMILY AND FLED HIS LIFE AND HOME TO ESCAPE THEM AND ANYTHING INVOLVED WITH THEM !!!!!!!! Even now his family does not want to talk about them . They still fear they will be found since Mas Jud hated them so The dislike for that group is so large AGAIN MAS JUD FLED FOR HIS LIFE TO REMOVE HIMSELF AND HIS FAMILY FROM THEM FOREVER . Now of course to be be not a nice guy and to try and stir the pot KIA ever the trouble maker makes this remark.

Remember who mas Jud was. He is connected to the Sera-Serak of the USA all of those students, the Wetzel line, the Reeders Line, The Terlinden line if you are trying to sell that phoney word twisting info then you are saying EVERYONE OF THOSE GROUPS HAS A TERRORIST CONNECTION SINCE THEY HAVE TIES TO MAS JUD which is of course completely absurd and I really think their is not a single sane minded person on this forum that would believe that. Mas Jud was a good man and highly respected, got accidentally involved maybe by teaching a member, found out and headed out of town. I have trained now in Pencak Silat since 1972. In this art we can make a VERY good silat player in five or six years. We have done it over and over again .

My advice is if you have been studying for decades and really consider yourself not very good find another teacher or art. Yes I know, we are all still learning and that is VERY true . I also know in six years we have developed very good players who by the way HAVE entered MANY open tournaments . Tristen you must not have seen any of the Wetzel or Malter students fight in the 70's . We made it a point to fight in MANY open Karate tournaments and Bill Dobich had the at His Dragons Temple school in Youngstown Ohio a large rented stadium , an open tournament EVERY year, NO PADS , NO RING BOUNDRIES ALL STRIKES GOOD , GROUND FIGHTING ALLOWED. Every year the Karate guys came and got floored by the dance of the Monkey etc. If you even look at one of John Malters commercial tapes he has a clip of one Andy fighting an open Karate champion at an open tournament and you can watch and laugh as this guy puts his hands down in disgust at the moves Ady has, and then gets blasted all over the ring to the delight of the crowd. Master Wetzel had a very good asrt and also speaking ill of him is not respectful or appropriate and shows very bad and rude manners to the family members still alive and all of his students who loved him , in my opinion. I could tell some real funny stories about those tournaments, maybe another day . William Sanders

[silatliam]

Sgt Major
Can you let the moderators or Administraters who run this forum, that over the last 72 hrs 5 new members have tried to join this forum and for some reason when they use their passwords they cant get on. So far they have had to asked people like myself and others to post their views through our names, which is very time consuming for me. Could you please let the powers who be, know this (I have tried sending you private posts but they not going through either). I said to these guys I let you know as they urgently want onto the forum to reply to remarks made by Kiai.

Thanks

Liam

[Sgt_Major]

I will certainly pass on the problem Liam, and I hope it can be sorted asap.

[Saz]

Sgt Major
Can you let the moderators or Administraters who run this forum, that over the last 72 hrs 5 new members have tried to join this forum and for some reason when they use their passwords they cant get on. So far they have had to asked people like myself and others to post their views through our names, which is very time consuming for me. Could you please let the powers who be, know this (I have tried sending you private posts but they not going through either). I said to these guys I let you know as they urgently want onto the forum to reply to remarks made by Kiai.

Thanks

Liam

Liam,

Sgt Major has passed on the message to me. You are free to contact any of the administration team yourself using the details located here http://www.martialartsplanet.com/contactus.htm

At the moment, we have a problem with authorising new accounts. The accounts will be let through in due course when it is fixed. This may take some time as we have 240 accounts that need currently approval

[Orang Jawa]

I have no attack dogs that have some how prevented Tristen from being respectful to me as he said , if so who are they and where did they start the attack on this thread ????? As Usual this whole "attack" sequence started with the rude post by Kia that brought liam out asking why again with not a single bad word from us we were being insulted . But anyone who can read can just go back through the posts and. see that .

Salam William,
Now I felt like fools, :) my appology for not knowing the Pendekar Jafri has passed. My thought and prayers to his family.

I am a straightshooter, a big mouth by any means, I say it what I trully feel, no sugar cotting. I don't mean any harm to anyone. I can offer my opinon as I accept your opinon, is that fair? That's why I like to meet you face to face over a cup of coffee, if necessary we can jump started with Tia Maria on the side. We can easily becoming misunderstood in the internet, because our ability to express our opinion are differ.

In Indonesia an old age have a priveleges, It is impolite to address or to ask deregatory question to the elders. Jerry I think is over board about it. May be he like me or hate me to the bone. :confused: I'm still consider your loyal student Dr. Chris Martin as a friend. We have a cross word, but we agree to disagree.

As far as Karate tournament, in the late 70's, I went to Pittsburgh to compete at the Pennsylvania Martials Arts Championship sponsored by Shorin No Tora (John Hamilton) And come home with 4 first place and one 6' randchampion trophy. I think I was lucky then.....I have never compete in Ohio. Only in PA, DE, NJ, NY, and DC.

The last time I have compete is in NH. House of Samurai is the sponsor of the New England Martial Arts Championship. This is a funny, I think. I was asked by the tournament director to be a center judge (shimbun) for Master and Grandmaster form division. Its only about 7 of this so called Ms or GMs. It look so bad, I gave them the lowest scores allowed 5, while the other judges gave them 8 and 9. I think they kind of scared with their red belts. :)

Anyway, All the master was the judges at the blackbelt division. I like to compete in the blackbelt division because many younger blood there :). I did what I have to do, I performed a Gojushiho, a Shotokan Kata. Again it must be my lucky day, they gave me 9 and 10.

Sorry to keep you waiting :) Again I have never saw any Silat player in the tournament, either in empty hand form, Weapon form, Self-defense and Kumite. If they do compete, then I have not seen them in the final.
One thing that you are right, those day the protection ie.glove or pads is not required. So we are fighting on bare knuckle and bare feet. Yeap that exciting indeed. :)

My first tournament was in Lehighton, PA. Garry Michack was the number one kata from in the nation..Beat him. His twin brother was rangking no. one point lightweight kumite beat him in less than a minute. Yeap my lucky day.

So as far as Tournament I have been there and done that. I have the t-shirt to proof it. Well I have the 200 plus trophies to proof it too. Jinggo Boistering here again :)

Again, I'm not the authority in Cimande, and I dont' know much about it. I'm not looking for students either. I do not promote Cimande or Claimed to be a guru in Cimande. My bad, once a while I enjoy to bring the hot issue, get debated, hot debate and makes everyone upsets then I go get some Ying Ling lager :)

By the end of this month, I will tie the knots, that's enough stress all ready. I really don't need anyone to add to what I all ready had. So take a deep breath, stay back....and asked yourself "What you going to gain for being RIGHT?"
My worthless comments,
Tristan

[Orang Jawa]

Sgt Major
Can you let the moderators or Administraters who run this forum, that over the last 72 hrs 5 new members have tried to join this forum and for some reason when they use their passwords they cant get on. So far they have had to asked people like myself and others to post their views through our names, which is very time consuming for me. Could you please let the powers who be, know this (I have tried sending you private posts but they not going through either). I said to these guys I let you know as they urgently want onto the forum to reply to remarks made by Kiai.

Thanks

Liam

Saudara Liam,
You did good man! You said what you have in mind and move on..
I don't think to gangbang Kia is a good way to debate the complicated issue. Your teacher have replied to him, don't you think and other of your teacher's students should keep quite? The Pendekar has speaks. I don't think he needed help from his students to attack Kia comments again, right?
I do not know Kia, but I think he has an interesting question, lets debate it. One to one, there is no reason to be an attack dogs in the name of your PSP.
Just my worthless toughts.
No punts intended....Please don't bark! ;)
Peace!
Tristan

[Kiai Carita]

I beg your pardon? Do you get to Bandung much?



It wasn't because they were going to "Spice it up", it was because the Suwandas are Cimande by blood, something few (if any) people here can claim. Cimande was (and still is) the base style taught in Mande Muda, as well as Sundanese Silat. And there is nothing "Added" to our Cimande to spice it up, the Jurus are unchanged.

Exactly where are you getting this information from? For that matter, who is your teacher?

Salaams Bobster,

I lived in Bandung for two years in 1987-89. No one told me that Mande Muda used the kujang to 'spice it up'. As all my opinions, this was also my own. I appologize if I am wrong but in traditional literature the kujang is never mentioned as a weapon for fighting and I first saw it brandished in a Mande Muda photograph on a website.

My thinking is, why they call it Mande Muda when it is obviousely real old school Cimande? There is only one reason that I can think of: respect to the Cimande legacy. As Muda (Young) they are allowed the space of youth and they claim youth, meaning that if anything they do might 'wrong' the traditional 'old' Cimande (like the promise to spread Islam) they are excused because they are 'young'. If they wanted, they would be the rightfull people to claim Cimande Pusaka but they didn't. In my opinion it is out of respect and I respect them muchly for that.

Now, to the kujang, from the kujang lanang to the kujang wadon, from kujang wetan to kujang kulon... all the tosan aji experts in Indonesia say that the kujang is a tosan aji specificly used for the esoteric powers to enhance wet-rice agriculture. Ask Pak Haryono or check Pak Bambang Harsrinuksmo (alm) and they will say that. This is different from the Central and East Jawa tosan aji, many of which have esoteric powers concerning the political, not the life of the wet-rice farmer. Tosan aji people often mention the kujang when they point out that there has very rarely been a famine in Sunda land even though in Jawa people have green poo from only eating leaves.

That is why, when I saw the Mande Muda photograph brandishing a kujang, I thought that it must be for the international audience. Forgive me if I am wrong, please show me another instance where the kujang is used traditionally.

Bobster, you ask me who my teacher is. I have several teachers whom you would not know. First, my father, Suyono, then Rustamaji, then Sukadi, then Rendra and Pepen Sabur. No one with a big name...but Pepen's father was the late General Sabur of the Tjakrabhirawa... Mas Tristan would know who he was. I am at the outside of a real perguruan, though, as Rendra and Pepen are both of PGB Bangau Putih, a Chinese-Sunda school in Bogor, begun by (alm) Subur Rahardja. Now my Suhu is of course Gunawan Rahardja. However my relationship to him is only me asking: 'Can I join latihan?' and he saying 'Nggak ada yang nglarang!'

Warm salaams to all,
Bram.

[Pekir]

Sgt Major
Can you let the moderators or Administraters who run this forum, that over the last 72 hrs 5 new members have tried to join this forum and for some reason when they use their passwords they cant get on. So far they have had to asked people like myself and others to post their views through our names, which is very time consuming for me. Could you please let the powers who be, know this (I have tried sending you private posts but they not going through either). I said to these guys I let you know as they urgently want onto the forum to reply to remarks made by Kiai.

Thanks

Liam

Liam,

Sounds a bit like the 21st virtual version of rounding up the gang to start bashing. :confused:

Pekir

[Orang Jawa]

Salam all,
I just got the phone with William Sanders..he is human after all :)
I have to give him a credit, after a tough words I gave him on the list, still he have the courage and compassion to give me a call in the name of silat brotherhoood. I respected that and I welcome him in my space. :)

He tried as best as he can to explain his situation and the history of PUSAKA. Bram and I as an Indonesian, took that name seriously, therefore, we have a lots of question to why he uses that name to name his Silat System. As my understanding now that the name PUSAKA is figuratively speaking, and not litterally means.
I can buy that..its a free country, after all.
All i can tell you that we have a nice chats.
I think we all have to step back, and silent the gun...
Warm regards,
Tristan

[Kiai Carita]

My teacher Pendekar Sanders asked me to post this letter in on his behalf in response to remarks made earlier by Kiai..... NOW for the latest absurd remark about Mas Jud and a terro group, saying the most stupid thing that we have ties to it . First of all as usual words were taken out of context , the message on my website makes it clear that in the early 1960's Mas Jud some how got involved with this group and THEN REALIZING THEY WERE NOT GOOD PICKED UP HIS ENTIRE FAMILY AND FLED HIS LIFE AND HOME TO ESCAPE THEM AND ANYTHING INVOLVED WITH THEM !!!!!!!! Even now his family does not want to talk about them . They still fear they will be found since Mas Jud hated them so The dislike for that group is so large AGAIN MAS JUD FLED FOR HIS LIFE TO REMOVE HIMSELF AND HIS FAMILY FROM THEM FOREVER . Now of course to be be not a nice guy and to try and stir the pot KIA ever the trouble maker makes this remark. ..... William Sanders

Salam hormat Mr Sanders!

I pity you for having to email Liam to post your answers to my 'trouble making'. I go to the internet cafe to post, if you have not enough money to go to an internet cafe please come to Camden and I will give you £1 to go and have an hour to prove your legitimacy. After that please show your skills on me I will sign a death warrant like Jet Lee in Hero.

Sanders, big man, it seems that you do not know much about Darul Islam (DI/TII)... you could just ask Tristan (not Tristen) and he would tell you. When he was young they were the 'rulers' of West Jawa. DI has a long history and they did not start of being 'insurgents' or 'terrorists'. Kartosuwiryo, the leader, was an ex bodyguard to Soekarno wholly for Merdeka (tomorrow is 17 Agustus, guys). However they were dissapointed with the way the Indonesian Revolution was going and they decided to fight for sovreignity and failed. However by the time you say Mas Jut went to Banten (in the 1960s) DI/TII had ceased to be a problem, they had lost and gone underground. They have recently emerged in Indonesia with Al Chaidar as their spokesman and in the USA with you reminding everyone that Mas Jut fled from a DI stronghold to another DI stronghold in Banten.

For your knowledge, DI's failure was mainly due to General Nasutions 'pagar betis' policy of using all the silat players in West Jawa to surround and capture the insurgents. Pagar betis means fence of calves (of the leg) and though it did stop the 'insurgency' most just went underground. To go from Sukabumi to Banten was not really hiding from DI/TII... as banten was also a stronghold of DI/TII. If mas Jut really wanted to get away from DI/TII he should have gone to Central Jawa.

By the way, the title Mas is not Sundanese, it is Central Jawanese. Are you sure you got the name right here? I call Tristan, Mas Tristan ( I think it is more appropriate than Paklik or Om) because he is Orang Jawa. If he were Orang Sunda, of course I would call him Akang.

However, Mr Sanders, it seems that I am not the only person who you have a problem with. Before I began to question the legitimacy of your claims many silat players had had a spat with you. You always have your guard-dogs bark but you never come out yourself. This is very un-Pendekar-like and because of this at this instance as an Indonesian who got his citizenship from the blood and sweat and tears of my parents and grandparents, I personally say that you are not a true pendekar and neither are you a jago.

In my eyes to retain your honour you must answer Mas Tristan's questions: how long did you study with Sukarma and how long did you study in Cimande land? Also how dare you say that the patricide lineage of silat in the USA was Cimande? On the web I read about Tjimindie... an other made up name.

To all Wetzel liners: let me tell you lilahi'ta'allah your line has no barakah, no karomah, get away from it. As an Indonesian and an inheritor of the intangible heritage (a UN term) of all Indonesian culture including Cimande I bear witness that Cimande and all other Indonesian silat never-ever-ever teaches patricide and yours is the one and only that does because it was not the real thing.

May I say that since Suharto was a murderer I have in my adult years consistently stood up to injustice in my country never scared of red barrets or mysterious killers only fear Allah. Threats from Liam and your other dogs just make me laugh and my friends from Indonesia and Malaysia who come to my Sunday events for free really want to see you make real your threats/challenges. I am still waiting to see anyone more scarry than Suharto to whom I have said to in his power: Anjing lu: You Dog!

For your honour, Mr Sanders, answer Mas Tristan's questions and the other questions like why the salaam in your certificate is not there were you all in a hurry? Why you mix up Untung Surapati with Cimande? Why you have Jumat Kliwon dates and pretend to understand the kalamangsa of the Jawanese? Do you know what kalamangsa means?

Come clean Sanders! You have a good fighting system as your students say but you know nothing about Indonesian culture so don't pretend for pretension is not a Pendekar's way. Do you want me to nit-pick more on your website or do you want to be honest? I will continue to point out your arrogance even if your stooges on this forum stop me... the web is big Mr Sanders and open to all, even Indonesians. Please satand up as an individual and stop using your proxies.

Warm salaams to all,

Bram.

[silatliam]

Dear Kiai
You quoted " Threats from Liam and your other dogs just make me laugh and my friends from Indonesia and Malaysia who come to my Sunday events for free really want to see you make real your threats/challenges."


Where did I threaten you???? I offered you a opportunity to come along to Dublin and to inform my students face to face (not over an internet) why what they do is wrong.
About a Year ago one of your so called Indonesian / Malaysian friends made a visit to my club, on the phone he was very friendly and asked could he come along and train. When he got to the club, he started mouthing off that Cimande should be only taught by Indonesian. He challange one of my intermediate students to a match, he lasted 11 seconds before he was knocked to the ground and kicked across the floor before we had to stop the silat match as he was completely out played and out spar. (11 Seconds lets count that 1... 2.... 3... 4... 5....6... 7... 8... 9... 10... 11.... this great Indonesian Cimande Warrior beaten by a Pukulan Cimande Pusaka silat student who was only training for 2 Years ) He apologies afterwards for his statements and rudeness, and than wanted to start learning from us, as he said "what he learnt in Indonesia made him look like a stiff crapy Karate fighter, and didn't have the flow that was in our style" wow another Indonesian. IThe event was witness by 9 others. So Kiai if you think we quaking because you have Indonesian / Malaysian friends that wont really wash. because firstly I have no bones to pick with them as the only person I see here ranting is you. You keep saying you speaking on behalf of others, but actually who???? Why dont they speak up?? Aare they not internet cafes in Indonesia. Secondly if these friends of yours want to play thats cool, we can all play we dont care if there Indonesian, Irish, American, Spanish or even from Mars.

Kiai I have heard about the way you move, and my student has seen you move to be totally honest I dont want to learn what you have to offer, as if I saw what you are offering as Silat back 20 Years ago, I would have kept to Karate. You can call as many names as you like to us,the only thing you are doing to many of the students here is to actually turn them against Indonesian and their culture. I took up Silat as a Martial Art, that is what I teach, there is many beautiful things about Indonesian Culture and there many terrible things, same as all cultures, even the small Indonesian community in Ireland are always arguing and fighting about who in charge. But at the end of the day, all my silat teachers were fighters Jak Othman, Richard De Boardes, William Sanders etc.. not talkers. You can use this forum to discuss, but if you just using this forum to spread lies and hatred than something will be done about it.

I will asked again will you not accept our invitation to come to Dublin ?

[Orang Jawa]

In the name of God the Mercyfull.
Stop this childish exchange....
With all do respect to all party, STOP IT! Just stop it!
Tristan

[Ular Sawa]

In the name of God the Mercyfull.
Stop this childish exchange....
With all do respect to all party, STOP IT! Just stop it!
Tristan


I do believe he's on to something here guys.

Hope that marriage thing goes well for you Chief.....

[tellner]

Come on, guys. This isn't making anyone look good.

[rizal]

Moderator, sorry to bother you but I think some of the posts are already out of topic. This topic concerns (i think) what someone should do when he/she wants to learn silat, not about someone credentials. If they want to talk about it, please do it in another thread, will ya?

BTW concerning weapons use in silat, I don't think it's right to call keris and kujang as only a talisman (I think that is the meaning of tosan aji). Both are weapons, same as rencong, mandau, badik, clurit, dll. Whether they have secondary ability (great, I'm thinking like a MMORPG guy) it doesn't mean it lost its original purpose.

Another BTW, Keris as a talisman has many aspects. Any good authority in keris would tell you that there are keris for farmers, just as there are keris for mercenary, traders, and nobles. That's why an mpu usually learns thoroughly about the one who order a keris.

[Pekir]

In the name of God the Mercyfull.
Stop this childish exchange....
With all do respect to all party, STOP IT! Just stop it!
Tristan


Hormat,

I concur, this serves no purpose nor audience. You might consider to continue this by personal e-mail. Questioning things is not a problem but realizing it's going to lead nowhere shouldn't be too.

More in general.
Some of us have a hard time with the spelling of the Indonesian words by non native speakers. Some people on this thread may use old (pre-indepence) spelling, Tj instead of C e.g., and some use almost a phonetic writing. This happens all over the internet, if someone feels the need to clarify that this is not in accordance with the present spelling of Bahasa Indonesia it could also be done with more respect. I'm not a native English speaker and would consider it very impolite (even this word could be spelled wrong) if anyone would bash me around the thread for this. I can hardly expect people to read my posts in the Dutch language :)

Pekir

[Sgt_Major]

Moderator, sorry to bother you but I think some of the posts are already out of topic. This topic concerns (i think) what someone should do when he/she wants to learn silat, not about someone credentials. If they want to talk about it, please do it in another thread, will ya?



In part I agree that it is off topic to a degree .... however, until this issue is sorted it will continue to raise its ugly head in many many threads in this section. I COULD, lock the thread, and let it move on, but that would be a ticking time bomb until it happens again, as many of you know.

In this instance I am inclined to get this all out in the open, and 'thrash' it out until some conclusion is reached, either someone agrees to drop it, or more likely, those concerned agree to disagree, agree that there are more important things in life than a website, and other people's opinions on someone.

For instance there are 2 people who's opinion matters to me: My wife, and my daughter. Their opinons of me are all that matter, I really dont care what joe doe thinks about me or what I do, if you think my fighting sucks, good for you, it doesnt bother me, if you think my fighting is good, happy days, good for you.

For now, Im going to let things continue, but I would ask that we remember to attack the argument/ideal, NOT the person.

Sarge

[Silat Ger]

Hello all,
again I feel inclined to write on this forum because people write bad about each other.. Even though I dislike the medium, for everything that is written down seems to get a life of his own and then becomes the gospel truth. The only thruth is; there is no real thruth, everything is in the eye of the beholder. I am a student of Pendekar Sanders and proud of it. The guy is great, honest and yes sometimes we disagree. If that is the case we work it out and if it does not work out we respect each others opinion. That's as it should be. I do not know Kiai Cherita altough we had our "crossing of words" in the past. I respect his care for his culture and think he is honest in this. But noone knows it all and certainly not about Jawah and Indonesia in general. There are more cultures there in a squere mile then in the whole of America. The same holds true for styles in Silat. Every town has its own unique blend and every teacher does it at least a little different. Every style was invented some time by someone who wanted to do it different. Now that seems to be a crime. Why? Yes Pendekar Sanders put things together. He never said otherwise. He made Pukulan Cimande Pusaka what it is, and to me it is great. It doesn't have to be great for you. If you don't like it stay were you are and lets be friends. If some words are wrong, some cultural fact is mistaken, who really cares as long as the system works? Sure it should be right, but then don't fight! Talk about the mistakes and teach someone!
He, that sounds familiar. Didn't I write that about the Kris? I was stating argument in the past and asked!! for guidence and argument back but all i got was nothing. And about learning about Kris by translation: Why not. If someone who knows as much as some in this forum do don't share, you have to do something. Don't get mad about it but accept the guy's wanting for knowledge in someting that is so important for your culture.
To get it out of the way: yes my book on the kris is published now. It is great!!! And sure I will be trown in the mud by some. But who cares? The book is not the deffinitive thruth since this does not exist. But it is a workable book for someone who has no way of getting a real teacher on the subject. Don't slander me for it, but acknowledge my sincerity in wanting to share what I have learned over the past 27 years. If there are mistakes, help me to get them straight, I will thank you for it. But come with arguments and prove please!

A last point. I told a friend of mine about this fichting going on. I really did not understand it. She said: Ït's ovious, they are all only warriors. They only know how to fight so that's what they do. Isn't it time to become real Pendekar. Isn't this someone who stand above all fighting and should be a guiding light? More a priest than a warrior?

Ger Giesen.

[Sgt_Major]

Good post Gilat Ger. I agree with a lot of what you say there.

[Orang Jawa]

Silat Ger,
I have asked everyone not to discuss or bad mouthing William Sanders and Kiai. It should be between them.
ONE MORE THING!
And please don't preach something that you don't know nothing about.
I don't know how to be a pendekar, I was a never a pendekar, my teacher was not a pendekar, and my teacher's teacher is not a pendekar. Between the three of us we have 150 plus years silat experience. However, we knows how to behave as a human being.
Tristan

[rizal]

concerning the above 'war' i think it comes out to:

"Is the Cimande Pusaka taught by Guru Sanders can be considered Cimande?"

Well, it solve it is very simple...

1. Does anyone in this thread specifically trained in Cimande? And no, those who trained in styles that INCORPORATE Cimande are not considered as Pesilat Cimande.

2. Now, if we have two or three guys who are Pesilat Cimande, let them and Guru Sanders talk and they can decide if Guru Sanders's style is Cimande or not.

To Guru Sanders and its students: please understand that it is not out of disrespect some (at least not all) posters in this thread question your silat. In my personal experience, there are many schools nowadays who claimed to be originated with some famous old schools (Cimande, Hijaiyah, Sabandar, Sera, etc) yet it doesn't show in their juruses. Worse, some become more like MMA instead of Silat (hmm, a potential for a new thread). I hope you bare that in mind.

Rizal

[Kiai Carita]

In the name of God the Mercyfull.
Stop this childish exchange....
With all do respect to all party, STOP IT! Just stop it!
Tristan


Warm salaams to all,

In respect to God the Most Mercyfull mentioned by my elder Mas Tristan I will stop posting on this thread.

Warm salaams, (means warm peace)

Bram

[Jawara]

Asalaam Aleikum,

At the end of the day this has been a good discussion. I'm coming in kinda late here and was going to ask howcum just a short while ago this person was claiming to teach the 'original Embah Kahir' Cimande, and is now claiming that its his own version of Mas Jud's Cimande, and...

but then

I don't think I really want to know.

:bang: (this just about sums it up)

[Orang Jawa]

Asalaam Aleikum,

At the end of the day this has been a good discussion. I'm coming in kinda late here and was going to ask howcum just a short while ago this person was claiming to teach the 'original Embah Kahir' Cimande, and is now claiming that its his own version of Mas Jud's Cimande, and...

but then

I don't think I really want to know.

:bang: (this just about sums it up)
*********
Alhamdullillah! First of all I would like to thanks Mas William and Mas Bram for agreeing not to continue this discussion. I only hope people from either side to refrain or to start the fire again. Insya Allah!

Time to think another hot topic in silat that nothing to do with personal attack!

How about the effectiveness of ground fighting technique in modern application?
This beginer mind wants to know and learn.
Tristan

[Kiai Carita]

*********
Alhamdullillah! First of all I would like to thanks Mas William and Mas Bram for agreeing not to continue this discussion. I only hope people from either side to refrain or to start the fire again. Insya Allah!

Time to think another hot topic in silat that nothing to do with personal attack!

How about the effectiveness of ground fighting technique in modern application?
This beginer mind wants to know and learn.
Tristan


:) Mas Tristan, I have heard that alot of the groundwork techniques develop the practitioner to be a hero in bed... Especially if you do jurus buaya, particularly jurus buaya-darat :D :D :D ... And special for Mas Tristan, when it happens , selamat menempuh hidup baru.

Salaams to all...
Bram

[fire cobra]

ground fighting is just stand up fighting lying down!!

[Orang Jawa]

:) Mas Tristan, I have heard that alot of the groundwork techniques develop the practitioner to be a hero in bed... Especially if you do jurus buaya, particularly jurus buaya-darat :D :D :D ... And special for Mas Tristan, when it happens , selamat menempuh hidup baru.

Salaams to all...
Bram
:) Thank you Mas Bram,
In the west we have a great help form Mr. V. and Mr. L. Not that I need it :)
Tristan

[Wali]

ground fighting is just stand up fighting lying down!!

Hmm... slightly more in it that than.... although I would say that stand up fighting is ground fighting, standing up.... confused? I am!! :p

[Kiai Carita]

Hmm... slightly more in it that than.... although I would say that stand up fighting is ground fighting, standing up.... confused? I am!! :p

You must know Wali as you have done buaya, right? Is it true that doing buaya improves your sex-life? Please tell us all :D

bram.

[Narrue]

You must know Wali as you have done buaya, right? Is it true that doing buaya improves your sex-life? Please tell us all :D

bram.

Yes I think you could be right kiai, buaya (crocodile) strengthens the lower back kidney area. Strong kidneys means……. :o :D

[Wali]

You must know Wali as you have done buaya, right? Is it true that doing buaya improves your sex-life? Please tell us all :D

bram.

Well for the seasoned silat lothario, nothing beats a harimau shoot, while your partner in waiting in Kura-Kura! :eek:

[Kiai Carita]

Well for the seasoned silat lothario, nothing beats a harimau shoot, while your partner in waiting in Kura-Kura! :eek:

This really makes me laugh ... but it would be a short encounter would it not? :D :D :D
Bram.

[Narrue]

Well for the seasoned silat lothario, nothing beats a harimau shoot, while your partner in waiting in Kura-Kura! :eek:

Filth, pure filth wali wash your mouth out with soap and water! :D

[Wali]

Filth, pure filth wali wash your mouth out with soap and water! :D
I was dragged into this conversation by Kiai! Blame it on him! :rolleyes:

[Mushtaq Ali]

Also, I want to say something about the latest round of mud-slinging: This **** is so old, Moses stepped in it. It's so old, Mushtaq Ali remembers when it was shat. He probably owned the cow. Now, THAT'S OLD.

Yes Bobbe, it was my cow, and the resulting hullabaloo frightened it so much that the poor thing never gave milk again (there was nothing for it but to get out the peanut sauce and lime juice).

This incredibly silly discussion has been going on since the early 1980's (the last century as it were) and not much of value has ever come from it. One of the very few positive things about being old is that it does give you a somewhat different perspective on things, but more on that later.



You got that right bro, how's Mushtaq Ali doing? I have not heard from him fro along time. If you saw him, send my regards. :)


Salamat Pak Tristan, yes, it has been a very long time since we last corresponded, but I trust you are well. Let me offer you my congratulations on your impending marriage, may you find every happiness.

For myself, I am doing quite well. I am making and selling knives out of my little backwoods forge, working out with my students, hanging out with my friends, making the occasional post to my blog (http://tracelesswarrior.blogspot.com) , and blissfully ignoring Silat politics :D

I have to admit that I read this forum infrequently, and was somewhat surprised to see that this discussion is still going on after all these years. Then again I suppose that it is human nature at work.

Being as I have a somewhat unique perspective on this situation I am going to presume to offer a few comments, even though I am coming into this a bit late.

I know all the major players in this conflict, have heard all the various sides of the discussion and unlike almost everyone else outside Bill Sanders aliran, I have first person experience evaluating his art and his students.

Having actually spent significant time with a good cross section of Bill's students, having observed them closely over that time, and having actually played with some of them, the truth is that Bill has produced some very good Silat players. That means that that they can both fight AND dance (while there are a good number of groups that can do one or the other, aliran in the US that can do both are a bit less common). If someone forms an opinion on Bill's Silat without first person experience then I for one do not value that opinion. After all, everyone here should know that good Silat is more a matter of feel, flow, and sensitivity than anything else. (how many times have I heard "you can't learn Silat from a video"?)

As to whether or not what he does is Cimande, if one says it is not, then I suppose we should also condemn groups like Cimande DOMAS out of Sumatra, who frankly look more to me like they are practicing TKD than Silat. But interestingly they are quite well accepted as far as I can tell. We would also need to condemn Willem TeThouars, since the Cimande he got from his father-in-law look not at all like the village style.

If we question Bill's credentials, then we need to also question the credentials of Willy Wetzel and Eddy Jaferi to name a few.

If we criticize him for using the rank of "pendekar" shouldn't we also criticize the Perisi Diri aliran since as I remember they use the title as one of their ranks, or Bapak Paul DeThouars, or Wali Sango Silat since I have seen their leader given the same title. or IPSI and PERSILAT for that matter?

It has been my experience that when someone is so very selective in their criticism as with one of the posters here, one often finds a hidden Agenda, but of course that is just speculation on my part.

As to the matter of the existence of Sera, or if what Guru Stevan Plinck teaches is Sera, the answer is simple as well. Get on the mat with him or one of his senior students and see if their Silat is any good. Once you have determined that, then the linage question becomes just a little irrelevant. Just to be clear on this, I do not think anyone reading this would get on the mat with Guru Plinck and get off again without a real respect for his art. This being the case, the "real" history of how Sera came to the DeThouars family is really meaningless. (though obviously amusing to some).

I know that the behavior of some members of that particular family have been less than sterling, but I have never heard anyone who actually knows Guru Plinck question his honesty, morals or skill. Anyone who does not know him first hand has no useful opinion as far as I am concerned.

In my opinion, if someone has the time to spend criticizing other people's silat, especially if they have never met the persons in question, or tested their art for themselves, then they have too much time on their hands and could put it to better use by increasing their own training.

Steve Perry has suggested that when you get martial artists together fights will break out. I have to differ with this just a bit. It has been my experience that this is the case only if the martial artists in question are emotionally immature. Adult human beings find ways to discuss things without having to interject ego insecurities into the situation.

Everyone who knows me knows that I count Bill Sanders as a friend. Every now and again I point out to him that when he ignores his detractors and focuses on his school, his art flourishes, and living well is after all the best revenge.

I am a firm believer that if we were all to put our energy into perfecting our own arts that the rest of this mess would sort itself out with no effort at all.

So for what it is worth, that is my opinion on this sad matter, I still wonder at the usefulness of saying even this much but the discussion involves friends like Bobbe and Steve as well as Pendekar Bill and Guru Plinck, along with people I have a lot of respect for like Pak Tristan, so I make the effort.

And now back to lurking (and practicing my own poor Silat)

Wassalaam

[Sgt_Major]

With that, this thread is closed.

As the main players seem to have silenced the issue, I believe it is time for it to pass on, and not reappear at any point on MAP again.

Thats the Carrot ^^


IF anyone raises this again in another thread I will take action to have that person banned on a PERMANENT basis. So let sleeping dogs stay sleeping, dont pull their tails, dont poke their eyes, and certainly dont try to hit them with a stick ...

Peace with you all

Sarge (Tony)