medicine and martial arts

[thaimaster]

Do yuou think that as a martial artist you would need to study a liitle bit of medicine and know how to heal the old way with herbs and needles and if so do you think that their work?

[ember]

I think it depends on your involvement and level of commitment to the martial arts. I think that first aid and CPR training are a good idea for any black belt, especially instructors, and I like arts that require a person to learn a healing art to make Master. I think there should be some choice in which art (herbalism, reiki, acupuncture, etc.) they focus on.

I believe in complementary medicine. I know some herbs work: mint is great for opening up the lungs, and chamomile is very relaxing.

My experience with acupuncture suggests that it helps, too.

Your experience is likely to differ from mine, and you may believe different research than I. I have no problem with different opinions.

[aikiMac]

Do yuou think that as a martial artist you would need to study a liitle bit of medicine and know how to heal the old way with herbs and needles and if so do you think that they work?
Yes, and yes.

Learning how to hurt is easy. My four-year-old son knows how to hurt people. Learning how to heal is hard. The person who studies only how to hurt other people doesn't earn my respect. The person who studies how to heal other people earns my respect.

But you make up your own mind.

[Tommy-2guns...]

hmm i wish there were some arts didnt wait for you to become uber black belt master sash wizard level etc etc before you learn said traditional healing arts, does anyone know of any courses one can take in asian herbalism in the uk?


i second the notion that martial artist should know how to heal aswell as harm


another up side of the that, if you get into a fight and cause a man some serious harm, if your then seen trying to help him(if its safe to do so)

the law is less likely to reighn down upon you like a tonne of bricks as you shwoing regret and maturity of your actions. i have no proof of this in the way of law but i imadgine it would help your case.


i have never tried accupuncture but i have immense fear of needles!

[moononthewater]

You do not have to become a Black belt to learn these things. I did a three year course in Shiatsu. To be honest I believe it taught me alot about myself and it is my yin to the yang side of martial arts. Also to be a good martial artist you have to be able to train so anything that keeps you fit be it traditional type massage or modern sport massage is good for you. Also such courses will teach you about your own body and how it works. Which all helps you to understand your martial art.

[Angelus]

Do yuou think that as a martial artist you would need to study a liitle bit of medicine and know how to heal the old way with herbs and needles and if so do you think that their work?
Im pretty sure they work because they have been around for so long...
i think as you progress as a fighter... you should also progress as a healer... and philosopher..because isint that what makes a martial artist different from just a fighter?

[wudangfajing]

Have an do still study both modern medicine Alopathie which takes alot of reeding boring stuff an read the Traditional Chinese medicine.

Stuff i read for Chinese medicine is:
Nan Jing classic of difficulty
Nai Jing classic of energy
Wai jing classic of pulse

A manual of accupuncture
Medical Qigong Jerry Allen Johnson


The structure can be better assisted thru the use of anatomy. It will oddly help with many of the older text of martial arts an those that wrote way back when were very aware of what the body was doing an the terminology of the body an organs. I mean even in relation to current knowledge of modern medicine alopathie, do believe they were very into the human genuos.

[Chris from CT]

You do not have to become a Black belt to learn these things. I did a three year course in Shiatsu. To be honest I believe it taught me alot about myself and it is my yin to the yang side of martial arts. Also to be a good martial artist you have to be able to train so anything that keeps you fit be it traditional type massage or modern sport massage is good for you. Also such courses will teach you about your own body and how it works. Which all helps you to understand your martial art.

I agree. I became an acupuncturist for two reasons. One reason was to have a career in something that I could be proud of and excited to pursue for the rest of my life. The second was to "complete the circle" of my martial arts training. It was said before that it's easy to hurt someone, but as Isaac Newton said in his third law of motion "to every action there is an equal an opposite re-action" and that is where I started delving deeper in the opposite side (healing). It's funny how Newton's theories, which are based on science, reflect the basis of Eastern philosophy and in this case Oriental medicine (Yin-Yang Theory) specifically. By doing so I have been lucky enough to see how things in both realms relate and shows how to make each one more effective in my life.

To the specific question at hand…
Do yuou think that as a martial artist you would need to study a liitle bit of medicine and know how to heal the old way with herbs and needles…

It really depends on how much you want to gain from your training. But I would say that from many of the “old timers” that are around, that even though they may not have pursued the healing aspect of Eastern arts specifically in depth, along the way they picked things up whether the wanted to or not. Only seems natural. :)

Whatever you do... Enjoy it! :)

Take care

[SifuPhil]

Do yuou think that as a martial artist you would need to study a liitle bit of medicine and know how to heal the old way with herbs and needles and if so do you think that their work?
No.

And I say that as someone who practices martial arts and TCM.

Why? Because you used the word "little bit" in your question...as in, "a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing".

Perhaps I'm taking you too literally, for which I apologize. But I've seen too many MA'ers play around with things they have little knowledge of in the healing arts, and generally they screw things up much worse than if they had either sought professional help or just left it alone.

Healing isn't a game - it's a serious study. And it takes time - a LOT of time - to become proficient at it. Ask Chris - he'll tell you. Ask ANY legit practitioner. Learning one or two "points" and sticking a sewing needle in there isn't exactly healing...playing with herbs without knowledge is dangerous (even though many MA'ers, and the general public as well, do so on a daily basis)...even massage, performed improperly, is a dangerous modality.

If you're going to learn to heal, learn it the right way. In addition to the safety factor, it will enhance your martial art a thousand-fold through an increased understanding of the way your body functions.

[TheMightyMcClaw]

I think a little bit of first aid would make more sense.

[thecycle]

Do yuou think that as a martial artist you would need to study a liitle bit of medicine and know how to heal the old way with herbs and needles and if so do you think that their work?

Yes. But you don't have to get carried away.

Go buy yourself an Anatomy coloring book. They cost maybe $20. When you are watching TV, or bored, do some coloring. Coloring is good stress relief.

The book contains drawings of all of the anatomy of a human being. Internal organs, nervous system, musculature, everything you can think of and more. Because coloring is relaxing and nonchalant, there is no pressure like you are studying to make it seem like work or something to resist or resent.

You don't have to memorize anything. Or even remember the details of most stuff. What you want to do is get a feel for what is inside of you. If you learn anything from the book, pay attention to what your organs are and where they are. The heart, spleen, liver, kidneys, stomach and lungs. Find out where they are and what they look like. I think those are probably most important because that is what Chinese medicine is based on. The treatment of the internal organs.

Buy an acupuncture dummy from China town. They look cool in your house. ;) People will ask you "What the heck is that thing"? The acupuncture dummy is about a foot and a half tall and has all the acupuncture meridians on it. It is a fun toy sort of like the coloring book. If you are bored or daydreaming, you pick it up and look at the meridians. You wonder what the heck those chinese people are trying to tell you. Maybe one day your daydream will get an answer.

Actually learning to do acupuncture and herbs is hard as the one gentlemen mentioned. It is also serious like he said. If you can learn that stuff, you are a man to be admired. But if all you do is get a book on herbs and read about what they are supposed to do, i think it will change you.

When you read books on herbs, you will see these people are completely serious. They have everything all figured out. Most of the books agree with each other even though they are written by different authors. By reading about what the herbs do, and realizing how serious the authors are that this stuff works, your world view might be changed enough that you will be willing to believe in energy, or acupuncture, or other things associated with martial arts that are frequently thought of as being false.

The point of knowing your body is that the more you know your body, the more power you have. If you don't know where your internal organs are, how can you move them? When you get into advanced martial arts, you will find that the movements are supposed to affect certain organs.

It seems common sense that you could do the movement better if you knew where that organ was. You would have some idea of where the focus of the energy of the movement was supposed to be going. It also seems common sense that if your body is made up of internal and external, or internal organs and muscles, and all you know about and work on is the external or muscle part of your body, you are only using 1/2 of your body. You could theoretically double your power by learning about your internal organs, and figuring out how to tie them in with your muscles.

As for does it work, the answer is a qualified yes. They do work on any human being. But the effect on people who are in a particular state of health is not as strong as it should be.

Acupuncture and herbs are subtle. They are designed to work on people who know about the internal and external parts of the body, and live their daily lives employing this knowledge. The average western person knows nothing of the internal and external parts of the body. Because of this their body does not react properly to the acupuncture or herbs. It is like taking a junk car to the race car mechanic for a tune up. The race car mechanic is the best their is, but what can he do with a junk car?

Nobody should let that discourage them from trying acupuncture or herbs. I am saying that they do not work properly on some people because if you feel that they are not working, it may that you will have to wait some time for your body to change or your sensitivity to increase enough to feel the changes that acupuncture and herbs induce.

As I am sitting here thinking about it, I could maybe offer a better alternative for you so you can see if you are really interested in this stuff. Chinese medicine includes tongue diagnosis. They look at your tongue like you are a dog and decide your state of health. This is really easy compared to acupuncture or herbs. You look at the tongue for shape, color, texture, length and flexibility.

If you get a book on it, make sure it has example pictures. It is really amazing what you will see. Some people have a black tongue. Really! Some people have a tongue that will touch their chin. That may seem funny, but for me? I wonder why? Why is that person's tongue so long? It is good I am curious too because I figured out the reason could be explained by kung fu knowledge.

You can only become better, even if just a little bit, if you spend some time and effort looking into Chinese medicine. It changed my life. I went from a loud mouth scientific "That is all superstition" kind of guy to a guy who believes in karma, destiny, and that all human beings have energy.

If you would have told me that years ago, I would have said you were crazy. ;)

[Taoquan]

Yes,

My teacher who is a MA and CCM practitioner for his entire life has this hanging in his office (I will have to paraphrase):

"A Martial Artist has the ability to heal or kill. The skills of one can be applied to the other. A Martial artist that cannot heal is like a man with one leg, he is out of balance."

[Boxerboy]

Do yuou think that as a martial artist you would need to study a liitle bit of medicine and know how to heal the old way with herbs and needles and if so do you think that their work?

Well I have a first aid cert and some rudimentary knowledge on dealing with training injuries, but I don't see why a martial artist would need to know how to do acupuncture or how to use herbal remedies. It sounds to me like you are prescribing your own beliefs to what other people should be doing.

[Dao]

G'day,
I am a TCM practitioner as well as a martial arts practitioner and to me they have many parallells, however I do not see it as essential to learn both.

Martial arts has nothing to do with healing but if one has an interest in healing then TCM is a highly compatible system due to its origins being in the same type of thinking.
To do TCM well you have to spend a lot of time studying it, it is a whole system of medicine. I agree with those who suggest learning first aid rather than eastern medicine if your interest is superficial. If you like it, study some more and if you still like it then enrol in a course in eastern/oriental/traditional chinese medicine.


Regards,
Dao

[lieqi fan]

Aha! finally discovered the forum I should be reading instead of the Tai Chi one. Although I do find it interesting, for the most part I read it for entertainment and an exercise in yielding by not posting on the chi threads :)

I am starting a 2 yr Tui Na (Full TCM) course in October and will probably do an extra year to get the acupuncture as well. I have been learning privately from a very experienced Tui Na practitioner for about 18 months after doing a medical Qigong course with him at the college he teaches at.

My interest in TCM was sparked by an increase in sensitivity after about 10 years of Tai Chi practice that made me feel uncomfortable about the invasive effect my energy seemed to be having on other people (I felt like I couldn't switch it off). I put this down to the focus and martial intent generated by my practice. It took me a couple more years to do anything about it, but doing the medical Qigong course changed my energy completely and from there I knew there was no turning back.

Greetings and respect to all you TCM MA'ers out there. I would like to ask you whether you think there is any conflict in these two disciplines. I have currently eased right off on the martial side of things until I'm sure. Maybe it's not so crucial for needling, but for a hands-on healing practice like Tui Na, I'm not so sure. Be very interested to hear what others think.

[Stevebjj]

Do yuou think that as a martial artist you would need to study a liitle bit of medicine and know how to heal the old way with herbs and needles and if so do you think that their work?At the last BJJ tournament I was at, one of the instructors (a brown belt) who runs a school nearby set a man's shoulder and another guy's thumb when both got dislocated. It was decidedly handy.

[lhommedieu]

This would be a good place to start:

www.zhenggutuina.com
www.tombisio.com


Best,

Steve Lamade

[Gufbal1981]

I think it is a good idea. I'm studying to be a physical therapist and my best friend is studying TCM. We plan on opening up a studio in conjuction with a doctor's office.

[hulong]

I'm not sure exactly what conflict you think there is between your martial arts training and your training to heal, but I will tell you that I think the conflict is only in our limited definitions of one or the other.

For instance, a beginner training in the martial arts may see only a punch or throw. A healer begins to see how that punch originates in a series of connected patterns of movment which serve to integrate and balance the nervous system, and a how a throw not only downs an opponent, but also makes a series of connections through the joint structure and into the internal structures of the body and down to the legs.

In aikido practice, for example, one of the ideas to keep in mind when performing throwing techniques is that the thrower stretches the one being thrown, and this stretching helps their health. The stretching is a part of the throw and pinning, and when done correctly, is just like any bodywork technique (sometimes better!).

So, my answer is that whether martial arts and healing arts are compatible relies soley within the approach and intent of the practitioner. What do you think?

[lhommedieu]

...I would like to ask you whether you think there is any conflict in these two disciplines. I have currently eased right off on the martial side of things until I'm sure. Maybe it's not so crucial for needling, but for a hands-on healing practice like Tui Na, I'm not so sure. Be very interested to hear what others think.

Not only is there no conflict between the two disciplines, but the internal connections you have learned in your Tai Qi practice will make you a vastly superior Tui Na practitioner. You will draw on your knowledge of how the body works as an organic whole when you start diagnosing and fixing structural misallignments in your patients, and the same body mechanics used in Tai Qi practice can and should be used when you perform Tui Na techniques. Move from your Dan Tian, in other words.

A good source book for learning Qi Gong techniques that are specific to the development of Tui Na skills is Zheng Gu Tui Na, by Tom Bisio and Frank Butler.

Best,

Steve Lamade

[lieqi fan]

Not only is there no conflict between the two disciplines, but the internal connections you have learned in your Tai Qi practice will make you a vastly superior Tui Na practitioner. You will draw on your knowledge of how the body works as an organic whole when you start diagnosing and fixing structural misallignments in your patients, and the same body mechanics used in Tai Qi practice can and should be used when you perform Tui Na techniques. Move from your Dan Tian, in other words.

A good source book for learning Qi Gong techniques that are specific to the development of Tui Na skills is Zheng Gu Tui Na, by Tom Bisio and Frank Butler.

Best,

Steve Lamade

I have no problem with the body mechanics of martial arts being applied to forms of hands on healing- tai chi is what drew me to Tui Na - my question concerns intent (Yi) and whether martial practices cultivate a focus which is inimical to healing. Obviously, how one uses one's mind is a matter of choice and discipline, so I am not suggesting both can't be practiced. But if one intends to become a supreme healer rather than a supreme boxer, why should one be concerned with developing skills in violence?

Book looks interesting, sure is a lot of money though, so i'd have to leaf through it before coughing up that kinda dough. Fortunately my teachers are very good and authors on the subject also.

Thanks for your comments Steve.

[lhommedieu]

I have no problem with the body mechanics of martial arts being applied to forms of hands on healing- tai chi is what drew me to Tui Na - my question concerns intent (Yi) and whether martial practices cultivate a focus which is inimical to healing. Obviously, how one uses one's mind is a matter of choice and discipline, so I am not suggesting both can't be practiced. But if one intends to become a supreme healer rather than a supreme boxer, why should one be concerned with developing skills in violence?

Book looks interesting, sure is a lot of money though, so i'd have to leaf through it before coughing up that kinda dough. Fortunately my teachers are very good and authors on the subject also.

Thanks for your comments Steve.

No problem. The book is expensive - but it is intended as a textbook for acupuncture colleges and the production value (good binding, heavy, glossy paper, etc.) is high. I'd recommend taking at least one of the Zheng Gu Tui Na classes before purchasing it, though, because I think that you, in particular, would get a lot out of it that way.

Developing specific tui na skills from a martial arts skill-set is simply an issue of practicality and expediency if you're already training in an art. I don't see any reason why you can't develop internal body connections that facilitate healing in the absence of training specific skills in martial arts, however. There are lots of Nei Gong exercises tailored specifically for tui na therapists, for example, that don't necessarily presume a martial arts background, and that can be practiced in the absence of martial arts training.

Certainly if one focussed exclusively on breaking things in his or her martial arts practice then the focus would be inimical to learning a healing art. But I think that it's the "listening" skills that one develops transfer particularly well to tui na - not to mention that one's own understanding of what healthy allignments feel like in one's own body can help to you to read what needs to be fixed in someone else's body.

Best,

Steve