If Attacked where do you strike [Archive]

shunyadragon

06-Dec-2003, 04:47 AM

I will assume you mean 'If attacked where will you strike first?'

My simple answer follows the simple rule; Strike the most vulnerable point closest to the strongest weapon available. In most attacks the closest most vulnerable point is the knee and the strongest weapon is the leg, but most attacks are not that simple and the strike is the last possible choice. Knocking out the attackers transportation or the ability to pursue you is more appropriate than creating a life threatening situation. Also another important rule is the response to an attack should be in proportion to the threat.

There are some simple guidelines for responding to any verbal or physical attack simply called KARM. Verbal atacks often preceed a physical attack.

K - Ki center. Know your center always keep balenced and earth-centered.

A - Awareness. Your greatest defense against attack is your awareness of your surroundings. Be aware of the Qi of violence and avoid all situations where this is likely to occur.

R - Relax. The first and most important response to any attack, verbal or physical, is relaxation.

M - Movement - Once a threat occurs the next response is movement after you have relaxed. Move from darkness (violence and threats) to light (safety).

If you try to hard you will get an A for effort and be caught in the wheel of cause and effect or KARMA.

Beehe

07-Dec-2003, 01:58 AM

i stun them some how
to gain the advantege

heat1012000

15-Dec-2003, 01:26 PM

Originally posted by Monty
Depends on the attack.
But groin, knees, eyes and nose are good targets.

Gimme a more specific attack, and I'll give you a good defense :) :love:

If you are attacked at any time your priority should be to get rid of your attacker as quickly as possible. you should always go for the sensitive areas such as throat, eyes or groin

Poop-Loops

24-Dec-2003, 06:55 AM

I tend to favor painful shots. Knees, back, neck, back of the head. :)

PL

surgingshark

31-Dec-2003, 12:28 AM

BALLS.

Din

03-Mar-2004, 08:11 AM

throat , groin , knee, nose , floating ribs , solar plexus , temple ...... where ever i can inflict pain i guess

Tess

03-Mar-2004, 11:49 AM

I recently somehow got into a fight with some Italians and a moped...they started it!! I was fairly sleepy and achey from looking around Italy anyway so when they started I just went straight for the groin. :woo:
It's not the most imaginative place but it gave me time to run away. :D

Actually there was quite a bit of fighting going on on that holiday... it was sort of a school art trip. There were some groups of Italian boys picking on us and our teachers kept attacking them...maybe my teachers are all secretly ninjas...cool...

They did rather well in my opinion. :)

Out of curiosity, how is the knee such a good place? I never really thought of it like that...not that that's an excuse to do a demonstration on me, I'm still recovering from the Italians. :D

Geisha Girl

03-Mar-2004, 05:53 PM

BALLS.I agree a snap kick hammer fist ridge hand whatever to the balls and when he bends in chop to the throat maybe rip his face off and punch across the temple.... Under attack it's the attacker or me and I will walk away as for my attacker... if he walks away it'll be with a limp after he wakes up

Geisha Girl

03-Mar-2004, 06:02 PM

Out of curiosity, how is the knee such a good place? I never really thought of it like that...not that that's an excuse to do a demonstration on me, I'm still recovering from the Italians. :D[/QUOTE]You can bust the kneecap crumple your attacker hit him in the face whatever but once that knee is gone he won't be so quick to attack but watch his buddies in case their dumb enough to try to help him

cioGium

03-Mar-2004, 07:44 PM

I have had 1 fight recently and it was after 1,5 years of training in a traditional martial art. After all that time spend in training all i could came up was a head shot towards the attackers head which cut his eye brow and end the fight in seconds.
I think the best thing to do if attacked is to hit back, hit hard and run fast after!! :woo:

nekogami13

03-Mar-2004, 07:53 PM

Geisha Girl

03-Mar-2004, 09:14 PM

Why are you assuming the attacker has balls?
Maybe you are being attacked by a roving band of leather clad lesbian bikers.

Attack the throat? So a drunk in a bar swings at you, you haul off and kill him?
enjoy prison.

There is no automatic response to the question. What is the situation, what is the threat level, what led up to the attack?l
Even for a girl a groin kick hurts that's bone there and we'll drop too.If a drunk at a bar swings at me I block it and do what I got to do self defense not offense

Tess

03-Mar-2004, 10:08 PM

All of a sudden I'm really glad no one demonstrated the knee thing for me. :eek:

On a higher note, you can severely torture a guy just by threatening to wax his legs! Or worse. :D

It's funny how they sometimes try to hide the pain and you just see the terrified glint in their eye as you rip the paper away.... >=D
*ahem*

....

*puts the lucozade back and scampers away*

Mushroom

03-Mar-2004, 10:22 PM

On a higher note, you can severely torture a guy just by threatening to wax his legs! Or worse. :D

It's funny how they sometimes try to hide the pain and you just see the terrified glint in their eye as you rip the paper away.... >=D
*ahem*

Hey it hurts me when I see my girlfriend doing it. Ouch!
(back to thread) I agree with everyone's general target..groin, knee, etc. Also if a chair/metal bin/chopstick is handy, grab and swing and people will back off a little. Gives u time to think and other members of the public who sees this time to call the cops.

PS I never seen someone grab a chopstick in defense but it would be hilarious and interesting . :D

Sukerkin

05-Mar-2004, 09:27 AM

I'm assuming that this question stems from the premis that all attempts to prevent a fight have failed in the first place?

I was trained that the first move in a combat situation is to try and talk your way out of it.

If that fails, then move away from the confrontation - if you're a practiced martial artist then you don't have to prove how tough you are after all, so fleeing causes very little ego damage :).

Failing that, then as has been mentioned above, do the minimum damage you need to to end the fight or give you the chance to go to option 2 :D.

I've only ever had to use my training once and that was because I failed in using either my tongue or my legs to evade the situation (I got myself cornered basically :o).

There were three of them with what could loosely be termed improvised weapons (broken bottles to you and me) and once it started it was over in a very few seconds.

The methods I used? One aikido arm lock (that a friend of mine had been teaching me the week before) which garnered me one chap to use as a shield against one of his mates and as a support whilst I side kicked his other mate in the knee. As soon as he fell over, I pushed the obliging blocker away (with a little twist of the lock to keep him more concerned with his arm than me), jumped over the prone one and legged it (which was not easy along a cobbled alley whilst wearing cowboy boots I can tell you :D).

So I suppose, in short, that answers the eternal question of whether the martial arts work in the street :lol:.

dragon_bunny

05-Mar-2004, 09:46 AM

personaly i'd go for ribs, or a palm strike to the chin/noses... but thats because i know my punches aren't very strong so that way i can do enuff damages to get enough time to run away and hide ;)

Yukimushu

05-Mar-2004, 01:01 PM

to be honest i would have to say i dont know, as i have never really gotten into fight. i would have to wait til i was attacked and just act on insitinct.
if that makes sense

I'd definatly have to agree with the Loci. ( wow i can rhyme! :D )
I don't exactly make a plan of where to strike first... just see what happens lol!

It makes me laugh the way Geisha Girl's text boxes are longer in proportion to everyone elses because she has a long location lol :D nice bug in coding there :D

Geisha Girl

05-Mar-2004, 04:11 PM

Hey it hurts me when I see my girlfriend doing it. Ouch!
(back to thread) I agree with everyone's general target..groin, knee, etc. Also if a chair/metal bin/chopstick is handy, grab and swing and people will back off a little. Gives u time to think and other members of the public who sees this time to call the cops.

PS I never seen someone grab a chopstick in defense but it would be hilarious and interesting . :DMaybe a chopstick to the eye hole?

dragon_bunny

07-Mar-2004, 11:20 AM

Maybe a chopstick to the eye hole?

on a side note i just read a piece in a magazine (fortean times) were some old guy had a chopstick stick behind his eye for a few years from some thing (didn't read it very well!) and he lived .. apparently it missed his brain.

ok back to topic ;)

Kukishinden Ryu

17-Apr-2004, 01:12 AM

What is the situation of the fight? is it life or death or just to guys beating the crap out of each other. If I care about the consequences of my actions I would react differently than a life or death situation. In most the scraps I've been in a good swift kick to the balls usualy did the trick! but in a life or death situation I would not hesitate to take away their eyes or what ever I can get at to finish it as quickly as posible. The kick to the balls thing doesn't unless you are fighting someone stupid enough to leave themslef vulnerable when the move.

LeadLegger

17-Apr-2004, 01:52 AM

andybenw

17-Apr-2004, 10:06 PM

a lot of people here saying go for the eyes. Blind someone and you'll end up in jail for a good old stretch. Same if you blat the likes of their knee joints. stick to a good old punch in the face or throat, then run once the guy is down incase he pulls a knife is what I'd say.

andybenw

17-Apr-2004, 10:09 PM

also I find that a kick to the groin invokes a supremely fast natural reaction and is more likely to get blocked by an untrained attacker than most things, depends when you throw it of course.

blackbelt_judoj

18-Apr-2004, 10:42 AM

I know this is different from most due to the style of MA that i practice, but i would always try to get in close with a headbutt and then grab them. Its only a seconds work to drop them to the floor when you can then make a sharp exit (or give them a few swift kicks - depending on the situation).

I realise I'm no good at punching so i dont bother to try! :cool:

Kukishinden Ryu

18-Apr-2004, 12:45 PM

that's great :D unless you're faceing someone who will never let you get that close unless they want you to.

shotokanwarrior

27-Apr-2004, 08:01 PM

Here's a strategy for you, guys. Attack your assailant's eyes with extended fingers, then when he jerks back his head in reflex, give him the mother of all Gyaku zukis in his solar plexus.

He'll give the metaphorical dust a big, loving kiss :) (that last bit was said in a viscous, Americanized drawling accent for added effect)

bigd

27-Apr-2004, 08:25 PM

It all depends on the attackfor example(from a jab-i probally would snap back counter strike to vulnerable area,or slip outside and strike.or if the guy is running at me wildly i would stop hit him(EXAMPLE-this guy is coming straight at me swinging wildly i would 1-sidekick him in the gut to stop his movement.2-low kicks as the knees shins while simultaneously striking up top as well. but the targets i would hit would be 1-throat,eyes,neck,temple,the face of course,jawbridge of nose.reason why i have these because i have a combo that goes like this and its one of my favorites.1-upset knifehand to the NECK,2-upset ridgehand to the temple,3-vertical punch to the center of the face,4-horizontal four knuckle strike to the middle of throat,5-backfist to the jaw,6-hammer fist to the bridge of nose. and i do all of that with small circular movements. thanks(SHINOBI-JUTSU"NINPO")thanks to denju.

blaksun

27-Apr-2004, 08:40 PM

Eyes eyes eyes eyes eyes EYES!!!

V.V

dolphindreamer

09-May-2004, 07:02 PM

In the Stomach and if that that doesnt work round the head. I'll show you if you want, ONLY JOKIN. sighned, DD.

Obese_Ninja

09-May-2004, 10:02 PM

Being a good Irish Catholic boy :Angel: when attacked I headbutt them straight in the nose :D and when that doesnt work my hands feet elbows and knees flail in. When that fails a good stick/table leg/stray cat to the face usually sorts my problems. Or a shotgun.

hedgehogey

09-May-2004, 10:42 PM

johndoch

09-May-2004, 10:54 PM

.

Exactly.

Where am I? whats happening? Who's involved? Why am I being attacked?

Many responses but one answer.

do what you have to do!

The answer is simply live with it so long as it never killed you :)

K93200

11-May-2004, 12:44 AM

.

the face , anyone hits me I always hit the face :D It's like a habit or maybe because i'm hispanic I don't know

Kwajman

11-May-2004, 02:13 AM

Most people want to protect their face. Therefore, go for the solar plexis...hurts like a you know what...

shotokanwarrior

12-May-2004, 05:46 PM

Most people want to protect their face. Therefore, go for the solar plexis...hurts like a you know what...
you're right Kwajman it does, i got kicked in the solar plexus @ a tournament before, it hurt like H.E.L.L. also no reflex for that area like the eyes or the groin.

Originally posted by Hedgehogey:
It's a crappy strategy.
Hedgehogey. If you ever get any time off making sweepingly negative statements, would you mind telling me the reason why it's a crappy strategy?

chib

12-May-2004, 06:08 PM

It's a crappy strategy.
This statement although impolite is one i can agree with, i have finger jabbed a few peoples eyes and the reflex action is for them to fall to the groung screaming and i mean screaming, then you can stick the boot into their face as they are on their knees at this point, i havent come across anyone that is left standing upright after being poked in the eyes

Kenpo Kicker

12-May-2004, 06:25 PM

nose
temple
throat(usually with chokes ppl panic when you put em in a choke)
jaw
groin
knees
solarplex
kidneys
spine
eyes
back of the head
collar bone
ribs
inner thigh
ears
elbows

example from a street fight strategy I had: We set up the fight though. Immediately I front kicked the guy in the solarplex(around that area not sure if I hit bone) grabbed his head and repeadly kneed him in the nose. I have also used knees in clinches and struck the solarplex successfully with good results.

In one case (when I was in middle school) some huge bully (I provoked him though :( we became friends later in life) tried to stick my head in the tolet. I spun out of his hold when struggling. I kicked him in his knee and ran. I didn't break his knee but he had alot of pain. I didn't want to break the knee so I did not hit him my hardest there.

xplasma

15-May-2004, 05:19 AM

Unarmed: Eyes with a boshi-ken fist or with blinding powder
Edged Weapon: Neck
Blunt Weapon: Side of the head or knee

hedgehogey

15-May-2004, 05:49 AM

Hedgehogey. If you ever get any time off making sweepingly negative statements, would you mind telling me the reason why it's a crappy strategy?

Sure.

Here's a strategy for you, guys. Attack your assailant's eyes with extended fingers,

This is EXTREMELY hard to hit on a resisting person. Small target + small weaon = practical impossibility. It's very hard to hit a target as big as the face when you're adrenalized. You're seriously gonna hit his eyes?

Also:
1) The defense to this attack is extremely simple: Blink.
2) You're a lot more likely to hurt your fingers than his eyes.

then when he jerks back his head in reflex, give him the mother of all Gyaku zukis in his solar plexus.

Gyaku Zuki (reverse punch) almost never works, especially aimed at the solar plexus.
This is because it requires you to drop your hands.
Dropping your hands leads to LIGHTS OUT.
Also, a man can suck up a blow to the SP. At my gym we do plenty of knees to the body when we thai box. Never even been phased by a blow to the SP.
The entire history of kickboxing and MMA bears this out. REVERSE PUNCHES ALMOST NEVER WORK.

shotokanwarrior

15-May-2004, 05:53 PM

At my gym we do plenty of knees to the body when we thai box. Never even been phased by a blow to the SP.

Hedgehogey -i suspect this is because there's too much surface area on a knee strike to affect the solar plexus.

agent

19-May-2004, 11:14 AM

Sidekick to chin: Instant knockout

Kagebushi

19-May-2004, 12:16 PM

This is EXTREMELY hard to hit on a resisting person. Small target + small weaon = practical impossibility. It's very hard to hit a target as big as the face when you're adrenalized. You're seriously gonna hit his eyes?
not if you train enough. or use CONTROL.

Also:
1) The defense to this attack is extremely simple: Blink.
2) You're a lot more likely to hurt your fingers than his eyes.

ok i have an experiment. close your eyes. poke them at combat power. then tell me whether your fingers or your eyes hurt. :cool:

K93200

19-May-2004, 12:38 PM

Sidekick to chin: Instant knockout
HAHA ONE OF MY FAVORITES!

Kagebushi

20-May-2004, 01:38 AM

Also, a man can suck up a blow to the SP. At my gym we do plenty of knees to the body when we thai box. Never even been phased by a blow to the SP.
try driving through with a boshi ken. it should have a lot more effect, since you only use your thumb and one knuckle.

a boshi ken is a fist with the thumb clamped down on the first finger with the first finger's knuckle extended so you hit with the second knuckle (from the hand, not the fingertip) they will support eachother. you wont hurt yourself if you hit semisoft targets-ribs, solar plexus, carotid artery, etc.

raitei

04-Nov-2007, 01:48 AM

I feel that this line of thinking is preparation which doesn't get you far in a real fight. I hate to use this analogy, but it is kind of like talking about where you plan to vomit if you suddenly feel sick. Perhaps a plan would work out if the conditions were the same. However the enviroment is constantly changing and it is the responsibility of a budoka to flow with this change. Planning will hinder this natural flow. That is why people are told to practice the kata and then "throw them away."

chubby dragon

04-Nov-2007, 03:40 PM

I agree with Raitei. Apparently one special forces saying is 'The first casualty of contact with the enemy is always the plan'. I was unlucky enough to get into a lot of fights growing up, and, as s/one else put it somewhere else on this site, 'most people don't rise to the level of their expectations, they drop to the level of their training.'

(Sorry for being a quote fetishist :o )

dingo983

25-Nov-2007, 11:07 AM

I like to target the eyes, throat and groin. People tend to panic or give up quickly when they are aggressively targeted.

L3vity

26-Nov-2007, 12:41 AM

Front kick to the groin
*attacker doubles over in pain*
Front kick to the face
*attacker falls backward with bloodied face*
*L3vity walks away safely*

g-bells

26-Nov-2007, 04:59 AM

if attacked go for the eyes or throat,then you have the option whether to walk/run away

RoninCelt

02-Jan-2008, 03:12 AM

Well, as so many have said about planning and what shoulda/woulda/coulda been--until reality hits :D, there are many things we could say we'd do. But generally, I go with what my adrenaline-saturated brain could handle in a real situation, which is: go where they aren't defending: low, middle or high. Plenty of targets in each to end the fight with a couple of strikes, or an off-balancing push or throw.

GSHAMBROOKE

06-Apr-2008, 03:44 AM

Eyes throat and nuts.

Otataral

06-Apr-2008, 03:53 AM

I was actually jumped by two guys the other day when they tried to mug me. They jump me on my way home from work and hit me in the back of the head with a brick. after rolling around the ground i told up i gave up, they let me up and waited for me to hand them my wallet. I striked with a hard punch to the one guys neck then a kick as hard as i could do to the other guys knee. After which i ran my ass out of there.

in short neck and where ever else i can thats free to hit.

RoninCelt

06-Apr-2008, 04:03 AM

Angelus

06-Apr-2008, 07:33 AM

Hapuka

06-Apr-2008, 07:39 AM

Face and Grion.

Angelus

06-Apr-2008, 11:05 PM

Face and Grion.

oh ya, for sure

koyo

06-Apr-2008, 11:15 PM

Study WHEN to strike and you might not come under attack so often.

regards koyo

RoninCelt

07-Apr-2008, 12:05 AM

Study WHEN to strike and you might not come under attack so often.

regards koyoMaybe this is why I haven't had to fight since the mid-80s? ;)

Bozryel

28-Apr-2008, 02:01 AM

That depends on a lot, but mainly I strike to end it as quick as possible, aiming for whatever is the most harmful and unprotected...

rurounidragon

14-Jul-2008, 07:42 PM

when they 're close by kick inside knee (i always wear reinforced work boots) so one broken knee coming up when they take a runner at me i step a side and do a kick to the outside knee
if the already got a hold on me head butt or knee in groin
all movements are followed by a sprint to get the hell away

Yohan

14-Jul-2008, 08:03 PM

McDonalds

chof

14-Jul-2008, 08:39 PM

why the knee, its holding up all that weight, the entire body is a target, dont get to entrenched in hitting specific targets hone your weapons to do destruction to any part of the body, then your targets will open up for you and it will be a piece of cake to hit them

Ana-mia

24-Jul-2008, 01:26 PM

A nice kick to the nads, although i've not been attacked by a male before
Usually i kick down on the knee, if it doesn't break it hurts like hell :)

chof

24-Jul-2008, 01:37 PM

ouch that hurts, just thinking about it

Southpaw535

20-Aug-2008, 10:08 AM

groin.

simi

13-Sep-2008, 02:33 AM

Depends on attack....

MuayInsane

20-Sep-2008, 11:16 PM

I would go throat or groin,but that would depend weather you were still standing after the attack,also if the attack was seen coming,if attacked from behind then i suppose a elbow or use their forward momentum for a throw.Last time i got attacked it was a full on slugfest till police showed up.

CanuckMA

02-Oct-2008, 04:16 PM

Eyes are too small a atrget in a fast moving, adrenaline drenched situation. You are more likely to hit the cheek bone or the forehead with your finger.

Aim for areas that are least visible. Most people focus on their intended target (you). Low kick is most likely to get unnoticed. I'd go for th knee down. Only problem with the knee is that if it's bent, a frontal attack won't do as much damage. My favorite forst target is the instep, preferably a scraping blow down the shin to the instep. It is not disabling, but will bring pain and momentarely stop the attacker. It will shift their focus to the area in pain, giving you that precious second or two to aim the next strike and haul ass out of there. Nike-do is the best form of self-defense.

InsertUserName

02-Oct-2008, 09:27 PM

Low kicks to the leg. Take out the knee if you can (and if the fight is serious). Otherwise chop that leg and destroy the foundations. Make them focus low and then hit a viable target along their center-line. Face, throat, floating ribs, whatever gets presented. Also makes it easier to run when your opponant is limping.

newy085

03-Oct-2008, 12:35 AM

Tess- the knee is a good point to attack because it disables the aggressor instantly. The only goal when you are involved in a fight is to escape, And if you can take out the knee and get out of range you have succeeded. Very few other targets gave that ability, most will stun them but not incapacitate them.

Also, the knee is a relatively weak joint especially when struck from the side.

Southpaw535

03-Oct-2008, 10:08 AM

nobody's mentioned taking a nice meat hook to their head

schnchri

17-Oct-2008, 06:52 AM

This question depends solely on the type of attack. If the assailant is armed with a lethal weapon, then lethal force becomes an option. (Note that lethal force doesn't necessarily mean you will kill the attacker, it simply means the technique used has a good possibility of causing enough damage to kill the person - like a solid strike to the throat.)

Also left to consider is the purpose of the attack, the age of the assailant, the conditions of the environment, etc.

In short it is a question with too many "what if" situations to answer. Your best option is to train your reflexes to respond to attacks (sparring); and condition your strikes to targeted areas. Good options for stunning your opponent are:
* Groin, if available. Although, I agree that all men have a conditioned response to this region.
* Brachial plexus origin and tie-in
* common peroneal
* femoral
* shin
* nose
* eyes
* ears (pop the eardrums)

Etc. The list can go on and on. Best thing to do is train!
Also, it should be noted that if your assailant has been drinking or doing any mind altering drugs the likelihood of them responding to pain compliance is pretty slim. You'll have to adjust to disabling your opponent, even if permanently.

jfleshner

02-Jan-2009, 01:01 AM

I always liked the nose, groin, and knees.

KungFuCandie

02-Jan-2009, 06:10 AM

The face. Almost always the face.

vismitananda

21-Apr-2009, 07:30 AM

My favorite part is the face as always.

But my first target would be the abdomen or chest part.

A person who is not fund of exercising will down to floor after hitting to that part in one blow.

I've actually try this one. :)

MissKarate

02-Dec-2009, 05:43 PM

Groin. I have hit someone there before, he fell to the ground in pain. Yes, a very painful experience, i did not do it by purpose just noting it was a accident.

Ryan-T

27-Jan-2010, 02:09 PM

Always end up lowering my body and punching the balls when attacked lol.

iammartialarts

01-Jul-2010, 02:59 AM

balls

PASmith

06-Jul-2010, 11:50 AM

Is that where you try and hit people or a critique of all your MAP posts?

simon s

06-Jul-2010, 12:13 PM

Is that where you try and hit people or a critique of all your MAP posts?

PASmith wins the internet.:cool:

FightOrFall

07-Jul-2010, 12:32 AM

In my mind I'd always go the head, but whenever it's actually happened I've found myself throwing body shots. Not sure why this is, maybe something to do with my height and the height I throw punches at when I train.

robnj

07-Jul-2010, 12:39 AM

Whatever answers yall give in this thread. I would like to offer up that when you are attacked it is more likely to be from behind or from the side.

I am guessing by the direction of the thread attacked means "punched" as opposed to grabbed tackled or put in a headlock.

I think I would be more apt to create motion by turning / moving something and than making an evaluation based on their movement from my movement. I would rather use movement to get angle and distance in my favor rather than plant after surviving a sucker punch trade shots.

Creating movement as opposed to trading shots will also help you assess things like 1) did he just attack you with a weapon or barehanded? 2) are his friends jumping in or just watching?

I know this is different from most due to the style of MA that i practice, but i would always try to get in close with a headbutt and then grab them. Its only a seconds work to drop them to the floor when you can then make a sharp exit (or give them a few swift kicks - depending on the situation).

I realise I'm no good at punching so i dont bother to try! :cool:

The hardest punch any of them could throw wouldn't be as much force as even just a decent throw or reaping throw.

It is kinda comical. Somebody punches you in the face and gives you a fat lip. In return you grab them and lever them over your hip onto the hardwood floor........:evil:

47MartialMan

07-Jul-2010, 03:13 AM

I always liked the nose, groin, and knees.

Seems like a strange fetish. :rolleyes: :)

Octavian_Caesar

07-Jul-2010, 03:14 AM

This thread is dumb. Your counter is going to depend entirely on the situation. I'm a big guy, so I'm generally always looking for the jaw and a clean one punch KO. But if the guy really pushed his luck and I know I've got an easy fight on my hands... well, I'd be a hypocrit... I always told my cat not to play with her food (mice) but I'd do it myself.

47MartialMan

07-Jul-2010, 03:15 AM

Groin. I have hit someone there before, he fell to the ground in pain. Yes, a very painful experience, i did not do it by purpose just noting it was a accident.
Which, from my observations, intentional groin strikes are less frequent and less accurate than "accidental" ones.

Therefore, if you tried this in a fight, chances are youd only P-off someone.

Octavian_Caesar

07-Jul-2010, 03:16 AM

Whatever answers yall give in this thread. I would like to offer up that when you are attacked it is more likely to be from behind or from the side.From behind? No, that's when you're mugged or raped. LOL

Attacked, I generally think is not reffering to s surprise attack.

47MartialMan

07-Jul-2010, 03:19 AM

Octavian_Caesar

07-Jul-2010, 04:27 AM

"STRIKE FIRST. STRIKE HARD. NO MERCY SIR"Is that a picture of you in your avatar?

47MartialMan

07-Jul-2010, 04:49 AM

Is that a picture of you in your avatar?

Simple question, but has me in curiousity;

What has this in bearing with the thread?

Octavian_Caesar

07-Jul-2010, 04:55 AM

Simple question, but has me in curiousity;

What has this in bearing with the thread?Trying to match your personality with your response.

47MartialMan

07-Jul-2010, 05:07 AM

Trying to match your personality with your response.

Interesting, a personality is reflected from a Avatar?

robin101

07-Jul-2010, 05:08 PM

hmmmm for me its leg or stomach. Coz i can reach them with a powerfull shot. they will hurt enough to stop someon persuing me, but not hurt/embarrass them enough that they then spend lots of effort to find out who I am and where I live/hang out etc and then wait there and stab me. It happens in london. guys will hunt you down and stab you with a goddamn skrewdriver for an off colour facebook comment

Seviko

07-Jul-2010, 05:49 PM

I usually do not strike..i would just lock their arms and put them to the ground..if they wont go away then throw strikes

47MartialMan

07-Jul-2010, 06:46 PM

Jiu JitsuNation

08-Jul-2010, 01:36 PM

I find it easier to put them to sleep. Everyone goes night night with a choke. Then you can walk to your car in peace. True story BTW.

Jiu JitsuNation

08-Jul-2010, 01:40 PM

RhadeConstantin

08-Jul-2010, 02:16 PM

I find it easier to put them to sleep. Everyone goes night night with a choke. Then you can walk to your car in peace. True story BTW.

true, but if there is more than one assailant or the assailant is armed then going to the ground isn't a good idea, striking would be better. granted that knife defense is incredibly difficult and even a striker will get cut, but the less time you are in range and contact the more likely you are to get cut. a boxer who feints, jab and generally stays out of range is less likely to get knifed than a someone who takes the opponent to the ground. theres a very high chance that either you or he will get stabbed.

Jiu JitsuNation

08-Jul-2010, 02:28 PM

You are underestimating BJJs efficiency standing. When you toss the first guy on his head everyone else second guesses coming in. Also a true story. It's difficult to keep going when you have been dropped on your face, neck or shoulder in the parking lot. And I will never be found in a situation where i'm alone. unless i'm carjacked or some extreme circumstance in which it doesn't matter what you know because someone got the jump on you and has the upper hand with a weapon.

I agree with the weapons. A sharp mind should keep those situations to a minimum. Most people go through life without ever being in a fight! A great majority of the population in fact. And even less who have been in a fight will ever encounter a weapon. Although I have had knives pulled on me and a gun twice. It was my head and way with words and the situation that got me out. Not martial arts.

And did I mention I have done martial arts my whole life I just fell in love with BJJ?

47MartialMan

08-Jul-2010, 06:07 PM

Typical of BJJers. They wany to defend that going to the ground is the best defense. Or that the ground game is the shizzle.

That said, I would think that one should have a aresenal of methods and these should be automatic and responsive to the situation. Therefore, because it is the situation causing the defense-response, no one can state what they would, could, should, do, because a situation had not unfolded.

Jiu JitsuNation

08-Jul-2010, 06:32 PM

I never said anything about going to the ground. The contrary actually. I got back to my feet where I would be more mobile and more able to defend myself against more than one person. I never once tried to say that anything I've read in the past 7 pages wouldn't work. I believe however those of you that responded defensively without provocation have a fear of being taken to the ground and being at ones mercy once there. I support everyone in what they do and was only contributing to the post.

7heTexanRebel

23-Aug-2010, 08:12 PM

I'm a newbie, so I would throw tons of punches to the face. Then tackle them and go for a choke or ground'n'pound.

slickoneuk

23-Aug-2010, 08:57 PM

Squishy or bendy areas. Eyes nose throat groin or knees elbows etc. Hit hard and hit true

RhadeConstantin

03-Sep-2010, 10:28 AM

You are underestimating BJJs efficiency standing. When you toss the first guy on his head everyone else second guesses coming in.
sure, but the point is that BJJ's major focus is on groundwork. I'm not saying that there is nothing in BJJ that is applicable to self defense situation but a major part of it isn't.. and usually when people attack in group's they tend to rush their target and attack simultaneously so it makes it difficult to throw one of them because the others aren't going to wait for you to throw their buddy. plus when you are in the process of throwing someone you are extremely vulnerable to strikes from the others.

unless i'm carjacked or some extreme circumstance in which it doesn't matter what you know because someone got the jump on you and has the upper hand with a weapon.

I'm going to respectfully disagree with you here.what you know (or don't know) is incredibly important even when an armed assailant jumps you. saying that all training is negated by a surprise armed attack isn't very accurate.

I never said anything about going to the ground. The contrary actually. I got back to my feet where I would be more mobile and more able to defend myself against more than one person.
precisely the point, you got up to your feet in order to be able to defend yourself better, but the major focus of BJJ is on groundwork. Now this isn't just about BJJ but generally any style based on groundwork is largely inapplicable in a self defense situation.
plus the best self defense technique (and indeed the whole point of self defense) is running,getting away.
Going to the ground isn't conducive to that.
now I know that even after going down you can get up but even so going to the ground hinders your ability to flee.
considering the fact that most self def situations are over in less than a minute your window of opportunity may not last long enough for you to get away if you're on the ground. just my take on it.

kc245

13-Jan-2011, 05:22 AM

Usually I would block their strike and go right for his throat and then to the side of his head.

Nathaniel Cooke

13-Jan-2011, 07:14 AM

Adrenalie is a very effective pain killer, so sometimes areas that just cause pain aren't quite enough. I would focus on three approaches:

Take away the ability to breathe - this way an opponent can't get enough oxygen to their muscles and, in a dynamic fight situation, will quickly run out of energy as a result. Punch up in to the solar plexus with an upturned fist to present the knuckle, at a 30 degree angle, or a decent knee straight in there. Or as has been mentioned earlier, the throaght. I wouldn't punch or you'll be in more trouble that the guy who attacked you and just maybe up on a manslaughter charge - remember, proportional and reasonable force is all that is allowed by the courts!

Take away their ability to see - if he can't focus on you he can't continue the attack. Also, protecting the eyes is a very deeply rooted urge in all of us, from our caveman days where if we lost our eyesight we were one very dead caveman. If you attack someone's eyes it is almost impossible for them not to flinch and be distracted from their cause of action. A flicking motion, as if you were flicking water off your finger tips, is often enough when aimed in to an eyeball. Or a paml strike upwards to the nose, to make the eyes water. One particularly nasty technique I was once taught was to use fingernails to slash at the forehead, so blood ran down in to eyes. Yuk. Not to everyone's taste, but I guess it depends how serious the situation is - when your life's in danger, all bets are off I guess!

Lastly, and this has also been mentioned before, take away the ability for someone to persue you - since after all, your prime focus should be to escape as quickly and safely as possible, not injure. If you prime focus it to injure you are no better than your attacker. So, kick kneecaps or if you can get round to the side stamp down behind the knee, having the twin effect of slaming the kneecap in to the ground, and forcing your attacker to get up again before giving chase, giving you a head start. A good knee to the nuts will also stop someone in their tracks, giving time to escape.

The centre line then - eyes, throaght, plexus, balls. But as others have said, no answer will be 100% true 100% of the time so train for the unexpected, that way you won't be so surprised when it happens! And practice getting hit, so you are able to react and don't go in to adrenaline shock or freeze.

Sorry got a bit carried away there, that's a bit of an essay - hope it helps!

seiken steve

14-Jan-2011, 05:15 PM

The attacker.

47MartialMan

14-Jan-2011, 09:20 PM

The attacker.

If Attacked where do you strike?

The attacker :woo::hat:

Giacomo

14-Jan-2011, 09:31 PM

sure, but the point is that BJJ's major focus is on groundwork. I'm not saying that there is nothing in BJJ that is applicable to self defense situation but a major part of it isn't.. and usually when people attack in group's they tend to rush their target and attack simultaneously so it makes it difficult to throw one of them because the others aren't going to wait for you to throw their buddy. plus when you are in the process of throwing someone you are extremely vulnerable to strikes from the others.

I'm going to respectfully disagree with you here.what you know (or don't know) is incredibly important even when an armed assailant jumps you. saying that all training is negated by a surprise armed attack isn't very accurate.

precisely the point, you got up to your feet in order to be able to defend yourself better, but the major focus of BJJ is on groundwork. Now this isn't just about BJJ but generally any style based on groundwork is largely inapplicable in a self defense situation.
plus the best self defense technique (and indeed the whole point of self defense) is running,getting away.
Going to the ground isn't conducive to that.
now I know that even after going down you can get up but even so going to the ground hinders your ability to flee.
considering the fact that most self def situations are over in less than a minute your window of opportunity may not last long enough for you to get away if you're on the ground. just my take on it.

Thats precisely his point, were YOU on the ground, you probably wouldn't have gotten to your feet nearly as fast, hell if there were other people there.

At all.

Besides, plenty of 1-1 fights in this world, and situations where the real problem is that no one will come help when it hits the ground.

----------

To answer the O.P.

I can't make any claims of certainty, but to cover all bases.

Anything that's available, each one multiple times if possible. Isn't that realisticly what we all would try to do?

Gerlock

16-Jan-2011, 09:27 PM

I look for any opening in the persons defence and strike there, if they defend where I have struck and leave another point open I strike there. If no opening can be found...roundhouse.

RhadeConstantin

18-Jan-2011, 07:23 AM

Thats precisely his point, were YOU on the ground, you probably wouldn't have gotten to your feet nearly as fast, hell if there were other people there.

At all.

Besides, plenty of 1-1 fights in this world, and situations where the real problem is that no one will come help when it hits the ground.

----------

To answer the O.P.

I can't make any claims of certainty, but to cover all bases.

Anything that's available, each one multiple times if possible. Isn't that realisticly what we all would try to do?

Firstly, you can never be sure for how long a 1 on 1 fight will remain 1 on 1, in my (limited) experience, I've seen several fights that start out as 1 on 1 but don't stay that way since someone or the other usually joins in.

Additionally, he took the fight to the ground himself, which I feel is a bad idea, which is why he needed to get up so the only reason he needed to use that speed was because of what he did. If he hadn't taken the fight to the floor there would be no need to get up and the question of speed doesn't arise. Now I know you can always get taken down against your will, but that's what takedown defenses are for, aren't they? 1 on 1 or multiples, in any kind of situation the ground is not a good place to be.

Giacomo

18-Jan-2011, 08:41 AM

Firstly, you can never be sure for how long a 1 on 1 fight will remain 1 on 1, in my (limited) experience, I've seen several fights that start out as 1 on 1 but don't stay that way since someone or the other usually joins in.

Additionally, he took the fight to the ground himself, which I feel is a bad idea, which is why he needed to get up so the only reason he needed to use that speed was because of what he did. If he hadn't taken the fight to the floor there would be no need to get up and the question of speed doesn't arise. Now I know you can always get taken down against your will, but that's what takedown defenses are for, aren't they? 1 on 1 or multiples, in any kind of situation the ground is not a good place to be.

Take down defences defend you from takedowns, not from tripping over a curb, being knocked down before the fight starts or getting caught by a haymacker and losing it for a second.

No one is saying that you should be on the ground in a multiple scenario, but fact is being on the ground in a 1-1 isn't that bad. Notall fights are street brawls in a crowd of drunks. There are other situations, someone comes to your house to confront you, you catch a burglar trying to get into your home, you are attacked in the middle of an empty industrial area of the city you live in.

There are plenty of moments in life where you are quite isolated so much so that snapping a quick scarf choke on for 4 seconds till he passes out may be a much better idea that trying to punch him out.

RhadeConstantin

18-Jan-2011, 12:09 PM

Not from tripping over a curb, being knocked down before the fight starts or getting caught by a haymacker and losing it for a second.
But keeping your eyes open definitely helps. Besides training in stand up striking greatly reduces the chances of a haymaker catching you

but fact is being on the ground in a 1-1 isn't that bad
I completely agree but only if there is some kind of guarantee where a fight will stay one on one, in my experience this is rarely the case, someone's friend or the other usually intervenes.

There are other situations, someone comes to your house to confront you, you catch a burglar trying to get into your home, you are attacked in the middle of an empty industrial area of the city you live in.
Maybe, But I would be unwilling to risk the my life and that of my family on a hunch that the guy has no accomplices and as I've said before, there's really no guarantee of it.

There are plenty of moments in life where you are quite isolated so much so that snapping a quick scarf choke on for 4 seconds till he passes out may be a much better idea that trying to punch him out.
Well I prefer the punch out,since there is no real way of knowing whether you're isolated or not.More often than not you may initially be confronted with just a single individual who has friends waiting.
but each to his own. I respect your methods even if I do not agree with them fully and I'm sure you'll respect mine. To me it seems that groundwork would be useful in a tiny percentage of confrontations while stand up striking is more effective self defense wise But hey i've been doing Krav Maga and Muay Thai for the past couple of months so maybe it's cause of that.

Giacomo

18-Jan-2011, 09:25 PM

But keeping your eyes open definitely helps. Besides training in stand up striking greatly reduces the chances of a haymaker catching you

I completely agree but only if there is some kind of guarantee where a fight will stay one on one, in my experience this is rarely the case, someone's friend or the other usually intervenes.

Maybe, But I would be unwilling to risk the my life and that of my family on a hunch that the guy has no accomplices and as I've said before, there's really no guarantee of it.

Well I prefer the punch out,since there is no real way of knowing whether you're isolated or not.More often than not you may initially be confronted with just a single individual who has friends waiting.
but each to his own. I respect your methods even if I do not agree with them fully and I'm sure you'll respect mine. To me it seems that groundwork would be useful in a tiny percentage of confrontations while stand up striking is more effective self defense wise But hey i've been doing Krav Maga and Muay Thai for the past couple of months so maybe it's cause of that.

1. You're ignoring the point, the point is going to the ground is not always a choice, you can get caught, you can trip, you can be jumped.

2. I've never been in a one on one that has gone on long enough to go to the ground, but I've seen plenty of videos of one on one fights, where no one steps in even when both people are rolling on the floor.

Self defense is full of risky decisions. And one advantage of ground-fighting is that most people can trade blows better than they can defend themselves from a joint lock. These are decisions that need to be made when weighing up a scenario. Ground fighting has been practised as a war art, it's not like it's a purely hypothetical sport excersise.

3. Grazie and same to you (as expected) :)

robertmap

18-Jan-2011, 09:42 PM

No doubt it's already been said (I haven't read every post in this thread) but where you hit is dependent on what your attacker gives you - corny but true - every attack has a weakness and the point of training is so that your body and mind respond to an attack in such a way as to optimally access that weakness.

gasolino

18-Jan-2011, 09:55 PM

Once you feel the threat could get physical surely you need to see where they are open and most vunerable. decide early and be ready

Kuma

18-Jan-2011, 10:40 PM

I'm of the mindset that I'm going to hit my opponent wherever he/she/it allows me to.

Emil

19-Jan-2011, 01:08 AM

I'm of the mindset that I'm going to hit my opponent wherever he/she/it allows me to.

yeah, that's the problem with these kind of questions. There is no way to pre-emptively determine how you are going to defend yourself against a particular attack, in my opinion. We need instead to look at how to capitalise on openings left by an attacker.

Kibbles

19-Jan-2011, 03:20 AM

If Attacked where do you strike?

At the attacker?
Where it hurts?
... At the attacker where it hurts?

Gerlock

19-Jan-2011, 05:11 AM

In the groin...every chance I get...hard!! Na not really

RhadeConstantin

19-Jan-2011, 10:23 AM

1. You're ignoring the point, the point is going to the ground is not always a choice, you can get caught, you can trip, you can be jumped.
Sure, you could, you could also be shot or run over by a punk in a car. You can do your best to avoid tripping by being alert but if you do. it's still just luck. beside's training how to stay off the ground is important IMO and plus I've never seen Cung Le or any other of the sprawl and brawl type fighters tripping and falling down and needing groundwork as a result of it.

2. I've never been in a one on one that has gone on long enough to go to the ground, but I've seen plenty of videos of one on one fights, where no one steps in even when both people are rolling on the floor.

I've seen several where people do intervene and I personally would not risk a "foot-my head-concrete" sandwich on the assumption that no one is going to interfere prepare for the worst I say.
Self defense is full of risky decisions. And one advantage of ground-fighting is that most people can trade blows better than they can defend themselves from a joint lock.
From what I've seen of most untrained fighters fighting, they tend to pull their head back really far and just use weak haymaker style punches that don't use body weight and have terrible technique that usually don't need to be countered since they'd usually just bounce off your guard Most untrained fighters are as useless at stand up striking as they are at groundwork and besides as I've said before ground fighting still has numerous drawbacks
These are decisions that need to be made when weighing up a scenario. Ground fighting has been practised as a war art, it's not like it's a purely hypothetical sport excersise.
To the best of my knowledge groundfighting was used by the Samurai for whom striking would be completely pointless due to the armor they wore which was made to withstand sword attacks.If striking were for some reason to be completely ineffective then yes groundwork would be great but what is valid then may not necessarily work in 21st Century beside's the main aim of self defense is to run away as soon as possible. going to ground lengthens the confrontation reduces your mobility and chances to escape. Also if you're opponent has a knife or some such weapon you have a small chance of actually being able to disarm, or evade him long enough to run away. but if you go to the ground with an armed opponent you really can't create distance and hence the fight continues till someone is knifed.

3. Grazie and same to you (as expected)
Thank you. As I've said before this is just my opinion. I admit that the styles I've trained in touch upon groundwork very lightly yet I feel that my points are logically sound. I'm not trying to put groundwork down by any means. I know a skilled grappler can literally tear off his opponent's joins or kill him or break his neck with ease but I still feel that primarily striking is on the whole better for self defense. Undoubtedly groundwork has advantages too, which you've just outlined but on the whole I still believe that striking is a better choice.
regards.

Giacomo

24-Jan-2011, 05:42 PM

Sure, you could, you could also be shot or run over by a punk in a car. You can do your best to avoid tripping by being alert but if you do. it's still just luck. beside's training how to stay off the ground is important IMO and plus I've never seen Cung Le or any other of the sprawl and brawl type fighters tripping and falling down and needing groundwork as a result of it.

I've seen several where people do intervene and I personally would not risk a "foot-my head-concrete" sandwich on the assumption that no one is going to interfere prepare for the worst I say.

From what I've seen of most untrained fighters fighting, they tend to pull their head back really far and just use weak haymaker style punches that don't use body weight and have terrible technique that usually don't need to be countered since they'd usually just bounce off your guard Most untrained fighters are as useless at stand up striking as they are at groundwork and besides as I've said before ground fighting still has numerous drawbacks

To the best of my knowledge groundfighting was used by the Samurai for whom striking would be completely pointless due to the armor they wore which was made to withstand sword attacks.If striking were for some reason to be completely ineffective then yes groundwork would be great but what is valid then may not necessarily work in 21st Century beside's the main aim of self defense is to run away as soon as possible. going to ground lengthens the confrontation reduces your mobility and chances to escape. Also if you're opponent has a knife or some such weapon you have a small chance of actually being able to disarm, or evade him long enough to run away. but if you go to the ground with an armed opponent you really can't create distance and hence the fight continues till someone is knifed.

Thank you. As I've said before this is just my opinion. I admit that the styles I've trained in touch upon groundwork very lightly yet I feel that my points are logically sound. I'm not trying to put groundwork down by any means. I know a skilled grappler can literally tear off his opponent's joins or kill him or break his neck with ease but I still feel that primarily striking is on the whole better for self defense. Undoubtedly groundwork has advantages too, which you've just outlined but on the whole I still believe that striking is a better choice.
regards.

1. How many times have you watched them fight on a well lit perfectly even surface of a size and shape which they are tottaly familiar with?

2. How often in these cases has it been in a secluded enviroment with no one around, it goes to the ground, and out of no-where 3 minutes in someone emerges from the shadows and joins in?

3. Check the HAOV in your area, I can garauntee it will consist predominatly of stricking, at which anyone you have to engage with will be expecting stricking and in some cases, very comfortable with stricking. Not so much when locks and chockes come into play, both physicaly, strategicaly and psychologicaly.

4. Many pins found in eastern grappling arts, are there so that someone or yourself can help knife the other guy. Grappling on the battlefield has the similar issues as today, in feudal japan, someone could always run up while you were grappling and get a blade lodged in a gap in the armor.

Outside of that the samuria are not the only military personal to embrace grappling, wrestling was a staple of the training of greek foot soldiers, I believe romans also. Outside of that there are other military cultures that have used wrestling as part of their military culture.

5. I don't deny, that given the choice I'd rather be standing, I'm just wanting to point out that falling down, or deciding to risk it and deliberatly take someone to the ground, is, depending on context, not neccessarily the end of the world.

GojuKJoe

24-Jan-2011, 05:59 PM

I strike for the soul. A man without soul is just a chump.

RhadeConstantin

25-Jan-2011, 12:49 PM

1. How many times have you watched them fight on a well lit perfectly even surface of a size and shape which they are tottaly familiar with?
You do realize that having a perfectly even and smooth surface is one of the prerequisites of ground fighting not stand up striking right? Additionally, in what way does a detailed knowledge of the shape of the area in which your confrontation takes place, help you

2. How often in these cases has it been in a secluded enviroment with no one around, it goes to the ground, and out of no-where 3 minutes in someone emerges from the shadows and joins in?
I just recently read an article in The Times the other day about a student who was accosted by in quite a secluded environment and then stabbed around 17 times in the stomach, Like i've said before, I'm not going to automatically assume that the guy in front of me is all alone.I've seen too may fights where two drunk individuals start a fight in the bar which is soon joined by friends from either side who cause significant damage in spite of the bouncers there ready to break up any kind of trouble.

3. Check the HAOV in your area, I can garauntee it will consist predominatly of stricking, at which anyone you have to engage with will be expecting stricking and in some cases, very comfortable with stricking. Not so much when locks and chockes come into play, both physicaly, strategicaly and psychologicaly.
In my experience most untrained fighters usually pull their head really really really back and flail at you with weak haymaker style punches that usually don't even have the knuckles come in contact with you,use no bodyweight whatsoever and leave their entire face wide open. If that can be considered striking in any way, then the way most untrained assailants would try to choke their opponents or twist their arms can be considered grappling. Seriously, to call some guy flailing away striking in a martial art sense is an insult to striking based martial arts

4. Many pins found in eastern grappling arts, are there so that someone or yourself can help knife the other guy. Grappling on the battlefield has the similar issues as today, in feudal japan, someone could always run up while you were grappling and get a blade lodged in a gap in the armor.
Yes, but the point still remains that they used grappling because striking would was practically useless due to the heavy armor they wore, to suggest that if heavily armored men prefer grappling due to the fact that their armor negates striking is somehow a plus point in favor of grappling for self defense is illogical unless you and your opponents are similarly invulnerable to striking.

Outside of that the samuria are not the only military personal to embrace grappling, wrestling was a staple of the training of greek foot soldiers, I believe romans also. Outside of that there are other military cultures that have used wrestling as part of their military culture.
Yes, and for the battle field they primarily trained with weapons such as the Short sword the spear the Legionnaire's gladius etc, there is no indication of grappling having been used on the battle field or outside of a sporting context, I think the Greek grappling style you're referring to, Pankration, was recreated based on carvings and drawings found on ancient pottery and those too show grappling being used in a sporting context, not the battle field and besides, you aren't a roman legionaire or Spartan hoplite on the battle field. They really aren't a self defense benchmark in anyway, and besides if a style having grappling in it is somehow a sign that grappling is good for self defense then I can point to Striking based Styles Karate, TKD,Muay Thai,Kalaripayattu,Kick Boxing,Boxing,Vovinam and a dozen other styles to support stand up fighting.

5. I don't deny, that given the choice I'd rather be standing, I'm just wanting to point out that falling down, or deciding to risk it and deliberatly take someone to the ground, is, depending on context, not neccessarily the end of the world.
See now, falling down is something that you really have no control over, but to deliberately take it to the ground and thereby limit your mobility, limit your ability to deal with multiples,limit your chances of escape,increase your chances of risk of getting injured (in the fights that i've seen that have gone to the ground, the concrete has left more vicious cuts that the opponent), you're limiting your ability to deal with weapons,landing awkwardly could injure you if it's concrete, landing on your opponent could cause serious damage to him that you would have a tough time explaining in a Court of Law,also Several ground fighting techniques are hugely inapplicable to self defense, lets take any joint lock for instance? are you going to hold an armbar till that person taps and is ready to get up and maybe attack you again, or are you going to break his arm? which would get you hauled up in court since that is considered excessive by most Countries and violates the reasonable use of force that is considered legal. In light of this I don't think ground fighting is a viable option for self defense.

Giacomo

25-Jan-2011, 01:51 PM

You do realize that having a perfectly even and smooth surface is one of the prerequisites of ground fighting not stand up striking right? Additionally, in what way does a detailed knowledge of the shape of the area in which your confrontation takes place, help you

I just recently read an article in The Times the other day about a student who was accosted by in quite a secluded environment and then stabbed around 17 times in the stomach, Like i've said before, I'm not going to automatically assume that the guy in front of me is all alone.I've seen too may fights where two drunk individuals start a fight in the bar which is soon joined by friends from either side who cause significant damage in spite of the bouncers there ready to break up any kind of trouble.

In my experience most untrained fighters usually pull their head really really really back and flail at you with weak haymaker style punches that usually don't even have the knuckles come in contact with you,use no bodyweight whatsoever and leave their entire face wide open. If that can be considered striking in any way, then the way most untrained assailants would try to choke their opponents or twist their arms can be considered grappling. Seriously, to call some guy flailing away striking in a martial art sense is an insult to striking based martial arts

Yes, but the point still remains that they used grappling because striking would was practically useless due to the heavy armor they wore, to suggest that if heavily armored men prefer grappling due to the fact that their armor negates striking is somehow a plus point in favor of grappling for self defense is illogical unless you and your opponents are similarly invulnerable to striking.

Yes, and for the battle field they primarily trained with weapons such as the Short sword the spear the Legionnaire's gladius etc, there is no indication of grappling having been used on the battle field or outside of a sporting context, I think the Greek grappling style you're referring to, Pankration, was recreated based on carvings and drawings found on ancient pottery and those too show grappling being used in a sporting context, not the battle field and besides, you aren't a roman legionaire or Spartan hoplite on the battle field. They really aren't a self defense benchmark in anyway, and besides if a style having grappling in it is somehow a sign that grappling is good for self defense then I can point to Striking based Styles Karate, TKD,Muay Thai,Kalaripayattu,Kick Boxing,Boxing,Vovinam and a dozen other styles to support stand up fighting.

See now, falling down is something that you really have no control over, but to deliberately take it to the ground and thereby limit your mobility, limit your ability to deal with multiples,limit your chances of escape,increase your chances of risk of getting injured (in the fights that i've seen that have gone to the ground, the concrete has left more vicious cuts that the opponent), you're limiting your ability to deal with weapons,landing awkwardly could injure you if it's concrete, landing on your opponent could cause serious damage to him that you would have a tough time explaining in a Court of Law,also Several ground fighting techniques are hugely inapplicable to self defense, lets take any joint lock for instance? are you going to hold an armbar till that person taps and is ready to get up and maybe attack you again, or are you going to break his arm? which would get you hauled up in court since that is considered excessive by most Countries and violates the reasonable use of force that is considered legal. In light of this I don't think ground fighting is a viable option for self defense.

1. Ground does not need to be even or flat for ground fighting. Can ground fight stuck between a couch and a wall, on a 0.5 gradient slope and on concrete.. Screwing around with friends teaches you alot about that kind of thing.

2. "I read an article" - Also read an article where a man was attacked with a katana, plus the sutdent was stabbed, not fighting one guy in a barren wasteland before his hidden ninja re-inforcements arrived.

You risk alot assuming and not assuming different things, but we are fighting here. You take a risk the second you throw that punch and hope he doesn't know how to box, the second you draw your hand gun on an aggravated armed robber in a store, in the hope he doesn't have friends outside ready for just this occasion. When you decide to use that bottle on top of the bin as a weapon against your assailant, you hope that the police come round the corner.

The assumption that he has/doesn't have an accomplice is another assumption each choice concerning that linked with it's own risks and rewards.

The rewards of assuming he has friends, do not negate the rewards of assuming he hasn't got friends. Which path you take is dependant on the situation and what that calls for.

3. An untrained assailant still knows your going to punch him, he's going to punch you. To defend himself he has to move away from your punches, to attack he has to move in.

On the ground, the whole scenario is very alien not just in technique, but in mindset and mechanics, "step back to get out of the way of the kick" is grasped by many, "pull your arm to touch your leg defend from the kimura" is not, in fact most wont even recognise an attempt at a kimura.

4. Again, samurai are not the only soldiers to use grappling, plenty of other less armoured foot soldiers saw wrestling as a useful tool.

The fact that the Samurai were quite happy to grapple even though there was a risk that someone else could join in and stick them shows that even in the samurai's experiences such instances were not as common as you seem to imply they were/are.

5. My point about these other soldiers has nothing to do with "grappling is awesome stricking is nothing"... I am a stricker I have far more experience with hitting people than wrestling them, I think stricking is where people should start when it comes to learning self defence.

These soldiers training themselves in grappling arts show that grappling had it's applications outside of sport, I'm not an archeologist, so I cannot hand you the evidence for grappling in war, hell I wouldn't know what it would look like! But I can say, it wouldn't be practised by so many warrior cultures if it all it was was ritual activity.

RhadeConstantin

25-Jan-2011, 02:33 PM

1. Ground does not need to be even or flat for ground fighting. Can ground fight stuck between a couch and a wall, on a 0.5 gradient slope and on concrete.. Screwing around with friends teaches you alot about that kind of thing.
Rolling on concrete will leave large cuts on you. I would strongly advise you against it

2. "I read an article" - Also read an article where a man was attacked with a katana, plus the sutdent was stabbed, not fighting one guy in a barren wasteland before his hidden ninja re-inforcements arrived.
Actually, initially he was only confronted by one person, the ninja reinforcements arrived later.

You risk alot assuming and not assuming different things, but we are fighting here. You take a risk the second you throw that punch and hope he doesn't know how to box,

I would not attack someone unless I'm pretty sure they're going to attack me, and since the choice is between standing there and letting him rough you up, or defending yourself I'd rather defend myself. To compare the risks you take when forced to defend yourself to anything else is illogical. If he attacks me, self defense is the obvious course of action
the second you draw your hand gun on an aggravated armed robber in a store,
I wouldn't
in the hope he doesn't have friends outside ready for just this occasion. When you decide to use that bottle on top of the bin as a weapon against your assailant, you hope that the police come round the corner.
And this compares to taking pointless risks..as?
The assumption that he has/doesn't have an accomplice is another assumption each choice concerning that linked with it's own risks and rewards.
Assuming he doesn't have friends with him has no rewards, you're just taking more risks to do something on the ground that you could do standing up.

The rewards of assuming he has friends, do not negate the rewards of assuming he hasn't got friends. Which path you take is dependant on the situation and what that calls for.
Again assuming he has no friends is just an added risk, prepare for the worst, If i assume he has friends and I'm wrong, I'm still safe, If I assume he doesn't have friends and I'm wrong I'm probably dead or seriously injured. Which path are you going to take now?

3. An untrained assailant still knows your going to punch him, he's going to punch you. To defend himself he has to move away from your punches, to attack he has to move in.

On the ground, the whole scenario is very alien not just in technique, but in mindset and mechanics, "step back to get out of the way of the kick" is grasped by many, "pull your arm to touch your leg defend from the kimura" is not, in fact most wont even recognise an attempt at a kimura.
As i've stated countless times before, the untrained assailant is going to suck at striking just as bad as grappling, step back out of the way is all very good theory, but unless mr attacker has extensive training and great reflexes he isn't going to be able to dodge a kick thrown at him.So you don't need to risk people playing football with your head to get that advantage

4. Again, samurai are not the only soldiers to use grappling, plenty of other less armoured foot soldiers saw wrestling as a useful tool.

The fact that the Samurai were quite happy to grapple even though there was a risk that someone else could join in and stick them shows that even in the samurai's experiences such instances were not as common as you seem to imply they were/are.
point is, if samurai were forced to fight unarmed they had no other choice, they could either grapple despite the risks or scream yo mama jokes at each other. They grappled because they had no choice, if they continued to fight they grappled if they didn't they went home. If I ever get into a fight with someone whilst wearing heavy samurai armor and that person is wearing armor too that completely negates striking I would try grappling, however finding myself in such a position is unlikely.

5. My point about these other soldiers has nothing to do with "grappling is awesome stricking is nothing"... I am a stricker I have far more experience with hitting people than wrestling them, I think stricking is where people should start when it comes to learning self defence.

These soldiers training themselves in grappling arts show that grappling had it's applications outside of sport, I'm not an archeologist, so I cannot hand you the evidence for grappling in war, hell I wouldn't know what it would look like! But I can say, it wouldn't be practised by so many warrior cultures if it all it was was ritual activity.
Look I'l give you the evidence you need. the Greek grappling you're talking about, pankration is reconstructed from whatever has been seen on pottery and other ancient sources, nothing has indicated that grappling was used out of a sporting context in a battle. When armies fight they use weapons. thats it

Seriously I don't see whats the problem here, your average chump is as bad at striking as he is at ground grappling. You do not need to take all the assorted risks that ground grappling brings to get the unfamiliarity advantage, Assuming he's got friends is always the safe choice, if you're wrong no harm done. BUT if you assume he's alone and you're wrong you're going to be in a world of pain. Most ground grappling techniques too are not amenable to self defense since you're legally required to use a reasonable amount of force and most joint locks will end up completely destroying the joint. Very bad, legally speaking. Also Samurai used grappling despite the risks because THEY HAD NO CHOICE.You do.

RhadeConstantin

25-Jan-2011, 02:41 PM

Look Giacomo let me summarize this in as small a space as possible.

groundfighting leaves you vulnerable to attack from multiples, it greatly reduces your mobility, it reduces your chances of escape, it places you in a bad position legally and concrete usually causes deep cuts.

Now
The average street thug knows as little about striking as he does about grappling, so you don't need to take the fight to the floor to get the "unfamiliar style advantage" saying the average thug knows he's supposed to get out the way of a strike is like me saying he knows he's not supposed to let you bend his joints.

Assuming he's got buddies waiting to help out is always the safe option, if you're wrong, no harm done. Assuming he's alone, and being wrong results in the "foot-head-concrete" sandwich very harmful.

Assuming you do end up on the ground, most joint locks will end up leaving you in a very bad position, break the joint and you've violated the reasonable use of force decree in almost any country out there. let go when he taps and he may attack you all over again. besides

There is no point taking such huge risks just to do on the floor what you can do while standing up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfLlGHV1dG4&has_verified=1

I'm pretty sure the guy who got one hit KO'ed knew he was supposed to get out of the way.Additionally the guy wasn't a random pissed off stranger, he was a pimp and a local gangster I'm sure he'd gotten into scraps before too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iDlzL7zrNU
I'm also equally sure that the four people the boxer took on knew they were supposed to get out the way. In neither case did you need to go the ground to get an advantage.

Giacomo

26-Jan-2011, 01:00 PM

Kurtka Jerker

26-Jan-2011, 01:17 PM

Striker, G, striker.

Giacomo

26-Jan-2011, 05:42 PM

Striker, G, striker.

Thanks for flagging that one up, just looked over the origonal post and winced several times.

RhadeConstantin

27-Jan-2011, 08:09 AM

1. Again, rolled on concrete before due to screwing about, not for long admittedly and got a scraped knee in the bargain, though most people aren't going to last more a brief couple of seconds against someone who knows hat they are doing. Like-wise for stricking.

2. Could you post up the article?

3. In the same way you wouldn't attack unless you were sure he was going to attack, our hypothetical fighter probably isn't going to grapple either unless he was sure no-one else could intervene in the next 3-5 seconds.

4. Assuming he doesn't have friends means you can focus on your attack and less on watching out for his friends.

6. Grappling as a last resort was because Samuria fought with weapons, not because grappling was but an impracitcal sport.

7. I may as well ask "what's your problem?", with admitting that grappling works, admittedly it's scope of use is narrower and it's risks higher, but that is not negating that it works!

Edit: Not sure why you are showing me videos of striking working in a SD context. I fully agree with you on striking, I AM A STRIKER. There is no need to convince me of strikings effectiveness over grappling in a large number of contexts.

Look I don't know how what I'm saying is too complicated, or why you keep repeating your arguments ignoring mine. Let me put it simple

Taking someone down on concrete can hurt both either you or them a lot.

Why on earth would you want to assume that he's alone? Why would you want to risk having your head kicked in? If you assume he's not alone, whether right or wrong, you'd be safe. If you assume he's not alone, and you're wrong you're going to be in a world of pain.

Basically, you're risking a lot and for what? reduced mobility? reduced ability to take on multiples? and increased risk from weapons due to having closed the distance?. Techniques that are less practical for self defense in any country with Reasonable use of force for self defense decree's?

6. Grappling as a last resort was because Samuria fought with weapons, not because grappling was but an impracitcal sport.

I'm not exactly sure what this means but let me reiterate, Samurai grappled because they had no choice, their heavy armor negated striking, in most warrior cultures where they weren't encumbered with heavy armor that negated striking they didn't go for grappling

Also the article was in a newspaper, if I find it I'l scan it and put it up.

5. Even with your arguments for being as bad at striking as grapling, these arguments will only apply to the physical mechanics. But you have to consider what form of attack to people have the most exposure to, and there-fore the most knowledge of how to execute properly?
That's like saying watching UFC makes you a skilled mixed martial artist, I've already posted a couple of video's which have show that despite people's "exposure" to striking they suck at defending themselves from as much as humanly possible. A karate instructor KO's a local gangster cum Pimp with a single blow so hard he's out could for several minutes and keep's falling down even after recovering partially, I'm pretty sure his exposure didn't help him.

7. I may as well ask "what's your problem?", with admitting that grappling works, admittedly it's scope of use is narrower and it's risks higher, but that is not negating that it works!

(Bold Mine)
I am not denying that it works,Infact I've already stated several times that a skilled grappler could probably tear limbs off his opponent. what I'm questioning is how practical is it, if it's scope is narrower, rests on assumptions that can kill you if they're wrong and is generally much riskier whats the point of learning it? If you dedicate enough time to even XMA I'm sure you could land a inverted triple spin hook kick, that doesn't mean it's practical does it? If striking is less risky, has a wider scope and is generally safer and more effective why grapple?
Think about it this way, if you have two investment schemes which require an equal amount of time but one is less risky and pays a higher dividend which one would you choose?