Interesting Jurus clips

[SilatSeeker]

Performed much like Hsing-i

http://www.nampon.com/

go to the Juru's link on the left - then when the options pop up, go down to Jurus again. There are 10 vid clips.

[Buddy]

Not to my eye. More like Goju or Uechi.

[fire cobra]

interesting indeed :)

[SilatSeeker]

Buddy, for clarrrrifimacation, (my attempt at a drunk slur) my comparison came from the single juru performed repetitively in a series of linear steps. Further, compared with many silat jurus, these are very "simple" movement sequences. That's where I saw the comminality and that's where it ended. Lest you think I'm suffering from a severe case of Mental Delusion - I'm not saying this guy compares to Luo Dexiu or Tim Cartmel performing XY. :)

By contrast, the body method isn't even in the park. These would appear to be done with maximum tension - not sung. Which is where you may have saw the Karate comparison?

I'd love someone who can read Indonesian to let us know if these are combat jurus, tenagalem or what?

What do I know - my silat system doesn't have jurus.

[Wali]

Performed much like Hsing-i

http://www.nampon.com/

go to the Juru's link on the left - then when the options pop up, go down to Jurus again. There are 10 vid clips.

I recognise the style of movement. These aren't physical jurus with a physical martial application. They are internal "Rexa Diri" or distance power jurus. They are traditionally broken down into 10 movements, each aimed at attacking different parts of the body.

They are done with intense breath control, and a very high level of intent. They are normally done with a prayer. Although I can't read Indonesian, the background pics of a man flying backwards would seem to support my claim.

People need to beware of these types of techniques, which although at the highest levels, it is possible, there are MANY MANY con artists out there ripping people off.

The movements in themselves have no physical, practical martial applications.

Perhaps any of our Indonesian reading friends can translate for us, or at least tell us what the gist of the site is.

[Gajah Silat]

Just click on others, then questions and answers in the menu :) It's in English.

Make your own minds up ;)

[Narrue]

It looks very Chinese in flavour. Lots of use of breathing, focused intention and contact with earth through mud step.
The last two in the question and answer basically sum up the art.
The person has to attack with serious intention for it to work. Seams like the theory is to detect the attacker’s energy and strike it with yours just before it issues or at the same time to generate repulsion between the two forces, thus the person is thrown back.
Also it seams like they don’t believe in using energy from the environment or anything outside the human body, animals, prana, elements etc as they view it as unholy. I don’t see how utilising prana from the air we breathe in to our bodies from outside could be considered unholy though.

[Narrue]

From watching the 10 Jurus and reading the commentary on each, the Jurus each have 4 meanings 1 a philosophy behind it 2 a physical attack 3 an internal strike 4 a health benefit to the practitioner.


Jurus 1-10

Hiji: To strike chest, heart, lungs

Dua Jeublag: To grip and strike to shoulders/sides of body

Dua Teundeud: Strike legs

Tilu/Tarik: To pull head down to meet/hit knee

Opat Liwat: To grab arm and strike upper body with opposite elbow/ forearm to shoot opponent

Opat Tomplok: To throw opponent by striking chest and lower body together

Opat Gileus: Right = strike to throat/heart & stomach. Left = strike Stomach/kidney.

Opat Colok: To strike the throat.

Opat Potong: To grab wrist and break arm.

Lima/Penutup: To Block both arms outward to open centre and strike middle of opponent

[Buddy]

SS,
I got your intention, and I see similar things in kuntao or five ancestor style. The body method is what defines IMA more than practice methods. I wish I could publish what I have of Luo going Xingyi. I'll look for something somewhat comperable.
<edit>
Here is a link:
http://www.emptyflower.com/video.html
The top 7 are my grand teacher Zhang Zhunfeng doing xingyiquan and baguazhang straight line material.
The bottom one on the left (the stout fellow) is Luo's teacher Hong Yixiang. Please note that neither is showing the body method to any great degree. You simply didn't allow anything real on film back then. But, the best I can find on short notice.
Buddy

[bradlee]

Hallo All,

This is my first Post. Nice to meet you and write here. I'm Indonesian, but now studying in Germany. I'll try to explain what Nampon is, but please excuse my English. Since I'm studying and living here in Germany, i've "forgotten" how to write and speak in English :D

I was lived near one of Paguron (Paguron = School, it's sundanese Language, a West Javanese Language) Nampon. Nampon is the name of the Founder, Uwa Nampon. (Uwa mean elder Uncle). So Paguron Pencak Silat Nampon means, Pencak Silat's School of Nampon.

Basically, Jurus in Nampon taken from old style like Cimande, Cikalong, Kari, Madi dan Sahbandar. But, personally... it's not true that Uwa Nampon had directly learned Cimande from Abah Khaer. (Abah Khaer died in 1825, that's not possible in any ways Uwa Nampon learned Cimande directly from Abah Khaer, Uwa Nampon was born in 1888. For story about Maenpo, i've written in http://www.kaskus.com/showthread.php?t=293945 but that's in Indonesian Language, i'll try to write here in English next time).

Now, i'm confused what i've to write and explain here :bang:
Oh my English, i feel like i'm an alien here :Alien:
Many to say, but stuck with my English. Mas Kiai Carita, please help me :D

Next time... next time... next time... :)

[Narrue]

Hi Bradlee

It may be easier for you to write what you want to say in Indonesian first and then copy and paste it into a translator and have it translated into English, its a lot faster. It’s not perfect but you can then make minor alterations after the bulk of it is in English

Also those of you who want to read something Indonesian can do the same.
I found a free translator at:

http://www.toggletext.com/kataku_trial.php


;)

[Narrue]

Wali,

When you say “Rexa Diri” do you mean Reksa Diri, as in Mount Reksa muka?
There is a legend that Guru Durna sent Bima (Satria Warrior) to a forest on Mount Reksa muka in search of knowledge and a holy water.

[Wali]

Wali,

When you say “Rexa Diri” do you mean Reksa Diri, as in Mount Reksa muka?
There is a legend that Guru Durna sent Bima (Satria Warrior) to a forest on Mount Reksa muka in search of knowledge and a holy water.

Hi Narrue,

Yes, Reksa Diri... I have never had to write it down before...

[Orang Jawa]

Hallo All,
But, personally... it's not true that Uwa Nampon had directly learned Cimande from Abah Khaer. (Abah Khaer died in 1825, that's not possible in any ways Uwa Nampon learned Cimande directly from Abah Khaer, Uwa Nampon was born in 1888. For story about Maenpo, i've written in http://www.kaskus.com/showthread.php?t=293945 but that's in Indonesian Language, i'll try to write here in English next time).


Selamat Bradley,
I would agree with wholeheartly. I was kind of suprise when someone wrote that Uwa Nampon was a guru at Cikalong perguruan. Historically, Cikalong is a very strick and close to the outside perguruan, a family system say to speak. The elite (tittle Raden) and if you are not related to one of the insider and must be approved by the elder of the perguruan, you can't get in.
I have a question to you and wali, is this still the case?
I'm rather confused lately when people freely claimed that his style have Cikalong origins....
Time has change?
Tristan

[Narrue]

Hi Narrue,

Yes, Reksa Diri... I have never had to write it down before...


Ok so its Reksa, interesting because in legend Bima was a great warrior and was particularly skilled in such arts, he was Sakti (had non physical ability’s).

Bima was also a great Empu and on Mount Lawu in central Java there is an ancient stone carved depiction of Bima forging a magical keris under the guidance of a god, perhaps Ganesha or Indera.

[bradlee]

I have a question to you and wali, is this still the case?
I'm rather confused lately when people freely claimed that his style have Cikalong origins....
Time has change?
Tristan
Yes, time has change... but not so radically. In many case it's still "closed" to outsiders. People can freely claimed that they have Cikalong in them, but the Cikalong Elders or other practioner can easilly know whether it's true or not.
Also Cikalong Elders doesn't like controversy. They don't give licensed / certified too, they don't need to do that. You know what i mean, don't you? :o

@Narrue, thank you so much. Actually, i used to speak English. But now, i'm a little bit confused while i've been studying here using Germany, and for 2 years i haven't write or speak English, But i think, it will come soon. :p

[Orang Jawa]

Yes, time has change... but not so radically. In many case it's still "closed" to outsiders. People can freely claimed that they have Cikalong in them, but the Cikalong Elders or other practioner can easilly know whether it's true or not.
Also Cikalong Elders doesn't like controversy. They don't give licensed / certified too, they don't need to do that. You know what i mean, don't you? :o

Thanks Bradlee,
Kumaha damang?
I do understand. In my own experience, I have never heard a title of Pendekar, Guru and let alone Mahaguru be use in Cikalong.
Tristan

[Wali]

Selamat Bradley,
I would agree with wholeheartly. I was kind of suprise when someone wrote that Uwa Nampon was a guru at Cikalong perguruan. Historically, Cikalong is a very strick and close to the outside perguruan, a family system say to speak. The elite (tittle Raden) and if you are not related to one of the insider and must be approved by the elder of the perguruan, you can't get in.
I have a question to you and wali, is this still the case?
I'm rather confused lately when people freely claimed that his style have Cikalong origins....
Time has change?
Tristan
While I don't practice Cikalong, I have heard a little about it.

My understanding is that it was developed to counteract Cimande. Cimande by nature had a lethal and devastating arms conditioning and strikes. People just couldn't match the awesome striking with the arms and hands that Cimande had. Then, Cikalong was developed (from a Cimande base I believe, again, this is just how I heard the story), which was an open hand system, making use of slaps, and strikes that were aimed at gouging, slapping, flicking, etc... in essence, a more "less direct" system.

I don't know if people claims are true, as to their art originating from Cikalong. All sorts of claims are made these days...

I 100% agree that many of the original systems were family styles, which were very, very rarely taught outside of the family sassaran, if at all.

[bradlee]

Wali, i have to tell a little bit story about Maenpo Cikalong. A Grand Father from H. Ibrahim (H. Ibrahim is a founder of Maenpo Cikalong) is a student of Abah Khaer as a founder of Maenpo Cimande. Before H. Ibrahim found Maenpo Cikalong, the family learned Cimande.

After H. Ibrahim mastered Cimande from his family and also from his first cousin (Rd. Ateng Alimudin), then he learned to Abang Ma'ruf in Jakarta (was Batavia), then to Bang Madi and last to Bang Kari. From this all 4 Guru, he built his own style and call it Maenpo Cikalong. Cikalong is the name of village where he lived. So Cikalong doesn't means "Bat Style". That's totally wrong, although it's true that "Kalong" in English is Bat.

But i really disagree about "Cikalong as a counteract to Cimande". As i mentioned before, Cikalong was born after H. Ibrahim learned 4 style. From his experience, he developed a new style that he thought accomodate all style that he had learned, to take a strong point and leaved weakness point. Cikalong has its self "lethal and devistating arms conditioning and strike". It named "Peupeuhan" (Maenpo Peupeuhan Cikalong = a punches style of Cikalong). Cikalong has 4 style of Fighting (1. Maenpo Peupeuhan = to strike with devastating punches and strike, 2. Maenpo Napel = to Touch and feeling, 3. Maenpo Puhu = to read opponent move and source of power in strike, 4. Maenpo Tangtung = style that explorate Stance of opponent). I hope it clear enough. :)

[Wali]

Wali, i have to tell a little bit story about Maenpo Cikalong. A Grand Father from H. Ibrahim (H. Ibrahim is a founder of Maenpo Cikalong) is a student of Abah Khaer as a founder of Maenpo Cimande. Before H. Ibrahim found Maenpo Cikalong, the family learned Cimande.

After H. Ibrahim mastered Cimande from his family and also from his first cousin (Rd. Ateng Alimudin), then he learned to Abang Ma'ruf in Jakarta (was Batavia), then to Bang Madi and last to Bang Kari. From this all 4 Guru, he built his own style and call it Maenpo Cikalong. Cikalong is the name of village where he lived. So Cikalong doesn't means "Bat Style". That's totally wrong, although it's true that "Kalong" in English is Bat.

But i really disagree about "Cikalong as a counteract to Cimande". As i mentioned before, Cikalong was born after H. Ibrahim learned 4 style. From his experience, he developed a new style that he thought accomodate all style that he had learned, to take a strong point and leaved weakness point. Cikalong has its self "lethal and devistating arms conditioning and strike". It named "Peupeuhan" (Maenpo Peupeuhan Cikalong = a punches style of Cikalong). Cikalong has 4 style of Fighting (1. Maenpo Peupeuhan = to strike with devastating punches and strike, 2. Maenpo Napel = to Touch and feeling, 3. Maenpo Puhu = to read opponent move and source of power in strike, 4. Maenpo Tangtung = style that explorate Stance of opponent). I hope it clear enough. :)

Like I said my friend, just a story I heard. You seem to have a more definitive version, so I'll take your story on board and do some additional input.

Welcome to MAP!

[Orang Jawa]

Selamat Bradlee,
H. Ibrahim never studied from embah Kahir. He studied Cimande from his brother In-law.
Om Tristan

[Bobster]

So Cikalong doesn't means "Bat Style". That's totally wrong, although it's true that "Kalong" in English is Bat.

...And I know EXACTLY where THAT little piece of mis-information came from. grrr....!

My understanding is that it was developed to counteract Cimande. Cimande by nature had a lethal and devastating arms conditioning and strikes. People just couldn't match the awesome striking with the arms and hands that Cimande had.

Wali, I have heard that story about almost every single style of silat I have practiced...Always the "counter to Cimande"...As if Cimande was the ultimate foodstuff of the universe. I am not trying to put down any Cimande practitioners, I have exerienced the Tari Kolot Kecer Mata ceremony in Cimande, near Bogor. I train Cimande myself. And yes, the arm conditioning is one stop short of imposed brutality, especially if you are the token "Bule" in the village. But I don't find it in any way superior to say, Harimau, or Cikalong. It's just a different approach, It has it's uses & it's drawbacks. The langkah is remarkable, but takes accurate timing to pull off. In pressed attacks, I see the arms used almost like shields in some cases.

But I see lot's of weaknesses as well, and there are Silat styles that fill in the gaps way better than Cimande in lots of situations. Also, for something to be a "counter" to another style, wouldn't that mean you would have to be an absolute MASTER of that style in the first place? I mean, it seems pretty strange that you are making a system of silat based on the weaknesses of a system that you don't know very well. How would you know that it worked at all? But as I said, I've heard this with EVERYTHING regarding Silat, especially in Mande Muda & Sundanese Silat:

Sera was a counter/offshoot of Cimande
Cikalong was a counter to Cimande
Syahbandar was a combination of Harimau and (Kari? something else) and was supposed to counter...Cimande

I mean, if you fall for the cultural rumors, you would think that Cimande was a village peopled by uncuttable supermen.

Hey Bradlee, I notice you use the Sunda "Maen Po" spelling as opposed to the Java "Main Po". Just curious, would "Ulin Cikalong" be more accurate, or are you trying to reference the old style of language, "Maen Po" as opposed to "Pencak"? Just wondering, my bahasa is imperfect & I get words confused sometimes. Bahasa Sunda is even more difficult.

[bradlee]

Selamat Bradlee,
H. Ibrahim never studied from embah Kahir. He studied Cimande from his brother In-law.
Om Tristan

That's right Om Tristan, I try to describe that before Rd. H. Ibrahim found Maenpo Cikalong, he learned Cimande in his family, and also from his brother in-law (Rd. Ateng Alimudin).

Rd H. Ibrahim is a son of Rd. Radjadiredja, and Rd Radjadiredja is a son of Rd. Aria Cikalong (Rd. Aria Wiranagara).

Aria Cikalong him self learned Cimande direct from Abah Khaer and famous as one of the best Student of Abah Khaer.

[bradlee]

Hey Bradlee, I notice you use the Sunda "Maen Po" spelling as opposed to the Java "Main Po". Just curious, would "Ulin Cikalong" be more accurate, or are you trying to reference the old style of language, "Maen Po" as opposed to "Pencak"? Just wondering, my bahasa is imperfect & I get words confused sometimes. Bahasa Sunda is even more difficult.

Hallo Kang Bobbe, kumaha damang?
Yes, i'm trying to reference the old style of language, and also as a culture.
As I know, only the Sundanese use the word Maenpo for his Pencak Silat style (Maenpo = Maen Po = Main Po, and Main isn't a Javanese Word, but Malay. Is it?).

Ulin Cikalong would be more accurate if we talking about how the Elders try to hide his exercise. Usually they used "Ulin" or "Usik" if they order student to practice and don't want the other know. If we use words "ulin" or "usik" it's like we use term "Let's play" in English. Let's play can means... let's play Basketball... let's play soccer... let's play badminton... or even let's walking around the city. But, if the Elders use Maenpo, then they speak between the community. I hope that's clear.

And Kang Bobbe? When were you last time in Indonesia? And I notice too that you've practice with Pak Dadang. Where's he now?

[Orang Jawa]

First of all, I'm not the authority in cimande or cikalong not even close...
I knew a little. It was a myth to say that any silat system purpusely develop to counter the cimande system. Historically, pencak silat cimande was the first known or recognize by people of Java, Indonesia, and the world? Probably that's the reason why people talk about it. There is no fact, just an old gravevine, jinggo boistering at best. I was asked by many silat players about or how to harden the forearm or shin. Well, my teacher Pak Lek, never taught me or other 4 students to practice to harden our shin or forearm. "Its not a natural things" He said, "you will pay the price later on in your life!" He continue: "our silat is derive from weapon system, therefore, our objective is not to get hit or otherwise we will be wounded from the knife or parang. Each incoming strikes we should view that as a knife attacks. Move away or you get cut.
Blocking is almost not existence in our system, we consider blocking by force is a symbol of murid baru, from blocking we learn how to deflect by combination of manuver our body and using hand to protect and finally we strive to do what we call to re-direct the incoming attack by merely touching and redirect the incoming strikes. What many silat students missing the point of learning martial arts are the very reason why we do this things.
1. The love of sport exercises or seni olah raga.
2. Deffensive technique priority: Not to get hit (forget about everything else, concentrate and study the moves so you "not to get hit")
3. Offensive technique priority: Hit the target.(It does not matter of how strong you are, how hard your punches and kicks are, if you do not hit the objective target, all of those things is useless) or you can impress your girlfriend at the very least.
4. Last but not least. Use the viable effort to avoid the fight, walk away or run....Sopan santun is the heart of silat.
I can be wrong too,
Tristan

[Narrue]

I recall somthing like :

Abah kahir worked for a Chinese man who was very harsh. One day Abah Kahir was taking a rest from the hard work when the Chinese man accused him of being lazy. A fight started and Abah Kahir ended up killing the Chinese man. When later asked what happened he said that he had forgotten himself (main poho). Later Main poho became Maenpo.

Since we are talking about cimande, is it really the oldest of silat styles and the word Chi-mande means river mother or the source of a river if im correct (the origin of all other rivers????)

However is there any relation between Cikalong and nampon style? It seems like they both put heavy emphasis on developing Rasa but does Cikalong make use of distance fighting or what Wali calls "Reksa deri".

Wali, Is Reksa deri a young art like nampon or is it older? What are its roots or history?

[Orang Jawa]

I recall somthing like :

Abah kahir worked for a Chinese man who was very harsh. One day Abah Kahir was taking a rest from the hard work when the Chinese man accused him of being lazy. A fight started and Abah Kahir ended up killing the Chinese man. When later asked what happened he said that he had forgotten himself (main poho). Later Main poho became Maenpo.

Since we are talking about cimande, is it really the oldest of silat styles and the word Chi-mande means river mother or the source of a river if im correct (the origin of all other rivers????)


Narrue,
I have never heard that story, Abah Kahir is a Horse trader, later he was employed by menak Ciancur and spend the rest of his life in Kraton.
Cikalong heavily influence by Cimande, bang Kari and Madi was the origin of rasa and tepal. Some of the Cikalong move was also influence by Syahbandar.
But that was my little knowledge in Cikalong,
Tristan

[SilatSeeker]

I was asked by many silat players about or how to harden the forearm or shin. Well, my teacher Pak Lek, never taught me or other 4 students to practice to harden our shin or forearm. "Its not a natural things" He said, "you will pay the price later on in your life!" He continue: "our silat is derive from weapon system, therefore, our objective is not to get hit or otherwise we will be wounded from the knife or parang. Each incoming strikes we should view that as a knife attacks. Move away or you get cut.
Blocking is almost not existence in our system, we consider blocking by force is a symbol of murid baru, from blocking we learn how to deflect by combination of manuver our body and using hand to protect and finally we strive to do what we call to re-direct the incoming attack by merely touching and redirect the incoming strikes. What many silat students missing the point of learning martial arts are the very reason why we do this things.

Tristan, I hear my own teachers words echoed in yours. I can't hear them enough.

[Orang Jawa]

Narrue,
I have never heard that story, Abah Kahir is a Horse trader, later he was employed by menak Ciancur and spend the rest of his life in Kraton.
Cikalong heavily influence by Cimande, bang Kari and Madi was the origin of rasa and tepal. Some of the Cikalong move was also influence by Syahbandar.
But that was my little knowledge in Cikalong,
Tristan

Narue, my appology!
I think I remember now that I read that from text book by Ian Wilson that was given to me by Stevan Plinck. I've been trying to locate that text book, but I could not find it, someone went to my cave and steal it, i think! :)
Abah Kahir have many jobs: baggage carrier, farmer, horse trader, etc.
So it could be....:)
Just to let everyone know that Abah Kahir was not the founder of Cimande, he was the first to teach Cimande. According to Pak Lek, Abah Kahir studied with Embah Buyut.
I can be wrong too,
Tristan

[Gajah Silat]

Pak OJ,

Was it Ian Wilson's thesis? I posted a link before, but here it is anyway :)

http://wwwlib.murdoch.edu.au/adt/browse/view/adt-MU20040210.100853

[Bobster]

Thanks for the info Bradlee, I appreciate it. When I say "Ulin" I usually refer it to mean "In the style of", for instance "Ulin Cimande" to me, means "The Cimande style". I last went to Indonesia two years ago & I am returning in two months. I haven't seen Dadang in a few years, I left Mande Muda after Ibu Rita took it over. I have no idea where he is or what he is doing. I train with Bambang now, as well as several other instructors...We're heading over to Bali this year as well, to meet a couple of Balinese stylists for a couple of weeks.

Thanks again!

[Narrue]

Narue, my appology!
I think I remember now that I read that from text book by Ian Wilson that was given to me by Stevan Plinck. I've been trying to locate that text book, but I could not find it, someone went to my cave and steal it, i think! :)
Abah Kahir have many jobs: baggage carrier, farmer, horse trader, etc.
So it could be....:)
Just to let everyone know that Abah Kahir was not the founder of Cimande, he was the first to teach Cimande. According to Pak Lek, Abah Kahir studied with Embah Buyut.
I can be wrong too,
Tristan

Yes Tristan I think its in that book somewhere it a very good read, lots of info!

[Gajah Silat]

Narrue wrote
Abah kahir worked for a Chinese man who was very harsh. One day Abah Kahir was taking a rest from the hard work when the Chinese man accused him of being lazy. A fight started and Abah Kahir ended up killing the Chinese man. When later asked what happened he said that he had forgotten himself (main poho). Later Main poho became Maenpo.

Just read Wilson's thesis again & it does say this :)

[Steve Perry]

...
But I see lot's of weaknesses as well, and there are Silat styles that fill in the gaps way better than Cimande in lots of situations. Also, for something to be a "counter" to another style, wouldn't that mean you would have to be an absolute MASTER of that style in the first place? I mean, it seems pretty strange that you are making a system of silat based on the weaknesses of a system that you don't know very well. How would you know that it worked at all? But as I said, I've heard this with EVERYTHING regarding Silat, especially in Mande Muda & Sundanese Silat:

Sera was a counter/offshoot of Cimande
Cikalong was a counter to Cimande
Syahbandar was a combination of Harimau and (Kari? something else) and was supposed to counter...Cimande

I mean, if you fall for the cultural rumors, you would think that Cimande was a village peopled by uncuttable supermen.

Bobbe --

I think the idea that things were developed to deal with Tjimande makes perfect sense. It was arguably one of the oldest, if not the oldest style in West Java, and one of the largest in terms of players. If you were from another village nearby and had your own art, you had to figure you'd be apt to run into somebody sooner or later who knew Tjimande. If you'd seen them fight, you might start thinking about what you could do to counter them.

Most effective arts do this -- they try to come up with ways of dealing with what they think they are most likely to run into. It's not that the Tjimande players were ipso factor unbeatable, only that there were enough of them who were good enough that you would be playing the percentages wisely to have an answer for what you knew they'd bring.

How good your answer might be is something else, of course, but you wouldn't have be a master to come up with a couple of things to deal with the average player. If you know you are going to face a grappler, it would behoove you to figure out some ways to keep from going to the ground, unless that's a place where you feel comfortable.

If a style favors a certain range -- long, or medium, say -- and you can get inside, you might negate their comfort zone and make it your own, hey?

[Narrue]

Just read through some of this thesis again and its interesting to note that Abah Kahir was an expert in “Ulin Badui”. The Badui are of Indian origin if I remember correctly. What does that tell us about Cimande, could it have its origins in India? Could Abah Kahir have not been the founder of the art but the first outsider taught the art?

[bradlee]

Yes, there are many version about Abah Khaer's life, it depends on the community who tell the story. Example, Pencak Silat Community in Parahyangan Timur (South East of West Java) believe that Abah Khaer was a trader, and learned the system from what his wife had saw in the river. Second version is from Banten Community, they say that Abah Khaer is Badui-man and his style developed from "Ulin Badui", Third Version is who say that Abah Khaer is a worker in Chinese Store, etc.

Dr. Ian Wilson's Thesis is very good, but normal... its has mistakes too. Many community don't agree in one thing which came from the other. But i love to read that.

Kang Bobbe (Kang = elder brother), Yes... i know that "ulin" now refers to "a style of", but what i mean in previous post was... in previous time, elders had made a difference in case how to cover the training.

Ulin Cimande its self, especially for Sundanese, means a lot. It's a father of all style in West Java. (Besides Terumbu i thought). As i were a kinder, like the other family and other kinder... although we come from a family who train Cikalong, but still... as the basis, i learned Cimande.

Traditionally, we never argue each other about what style is the best. Normally only a "jeger and preman (bandit)" who argue each other and fight in bus station to prove which style is the best. But time changes, especially after pencak open to the west, and people who can pencak think that they can get money from that, then we started to argue which style is the best, as we thought that being the best we will have many student, famous and rich. How pity...

[bradlee]

Just read through some of this thesis again and its interesting to note that Abah Kahir was an expert in “Ulin Badui”. The Badui are of Indian origin if I remember correctly. What does that tell us about Cimande, could it have its origins in India? Could Abah Kahir have not been the founder of the art but the first outsider taught the art?
Badui in India? No Kang Narrue, Badui is an old inhabitant in West Java, they speaks old Sundanese (a little bit different from current Sundanese language), and live as other Sundanese too. The different is only that they isolate they self. They engaged in farming for his self, not for business or money, they don't buy something outside the region, they don't speak about his life to outsiders (especially inner Badui), they wear only black clothing, black "bandana" (sunda = ikeut. Indonesia = ikat kepala) and black "sarung/sarong", etc.

The Badui went to isolate his self after his great King (Prabu Siliwangi) dissapear. This is a prove of loyalty to his King. A Story about King Siliwangi and his Son is an old story about Pajajaran Kingdom. I'll tell this story sometimes.

[Orang Jawa]

Pak OJ,

Was it Ian Wilson's thesis? I posted a link before, but here it is anyway :)

http://wwwlib.murdoch.edu.au/adt/browse/view/adt-MU20040210.100853

Terima kasih GS!
I'm still searching the hardcopy, though :bang:
I turned the couch upside down, found only few pennies and old bag of chips but not the text book :) I checked under the bed..found only only an old underware..oh no, its not mine..its must be her...but who? ;)
Oh well, I got to get another cup of coffee.
Tristan

[Orang Jawa]

Traditionally, we never argue each other about what style is the best. Normally only a "jeger and preman (bandit)" who argue each other and fight in bus station to prove which style is the best. But time changes, especially after pencak open to the west, and people who can pencak think that they can get money from that, then we started to argue which style is the best, as we thought that being the best we will have many student, famous and rich. How pity...

I'm agree wholeheartly with Bradlee about the historic Cimande or Tjimande.
I know he is the original guy and I think my shallow silat experience have something in common with his silat, may be ;)
The above quote was very profound, If I may say. As far as being rich? I don't know Bradlee, the few silat players that I have befriended, none of them becomes rich materialisticly from Silat, their richness is having large friends and extended family. So they are few of us still practice the old way.

About the meanng of "preman" I think, Mas Bradlee simplified interpretation "Preman" is "Bandit". IMHO, that's not the real meaning, though ;)
Preman is somekind of bully, or a petty street bully in a way. Hanging around in front of the stores or street corner, got no real jobs, some of sell some cheap stuff, some of them a petty thiefs. They were mostly coming from low class people. But, the word preman is usually used by parents to describe their son's friends. My neighbor used to tell their son not to associate with me, because they are affraid that their son becomes a preman. I don't know why? ;) I was not one the above? I must admit I was a Bandel kid. Soft hearted Bully I proclaimed :) And we all lived in Kebayoran Baru. Which is most the upper class lived. So preman in an upperclass family becomes a common word to use for jokes, and seriously not to be taken. Just like in the USA, bad can have two meanings ;) Its depends how you say it. :eek:
And I could be wrong too,
Tristan

[Narrue]

Tristan, You can print yourself a new copy from here!

http://wwwlib.murdoch.edu.au/adt/pubfiles/adt-MU20040210.100853/04chapter2.pdf

[Bobster]

I think the idea that things were developed to deal with Tjimande makes perfect sense. It was arguably one of the oldest, if not the oldest style in West Java, and one of the largest in terms of players.

So far I agree. All the evidence in the Sunda region points to Cimande being the "mother style". The motions, when compared to other styles, tend to be more forceful & less refined. Just my white-boy opinion, but I've been around kampong Cibodas a few times...!

If you were from another village nearby and had your own art, you had to figure you'd be apt to run into somebody sooner or later who knew Tjimande. If you'd seen them fight, you might start thinking about what you could do to counter them.

Again, agreed. This is common in most inner-culture martial arts, as wellas the UFC fighting fad. (By "Inner-Culture" I am referencing arts from the same country/region that are bound by the same cultural strictures, i.e. Japanese martial arts, for the most part, share a common appearance trait between them, no matter what they are. Indonesian Silat shares this trait, as do other arts).

(snipped)

Actually Steve, after going over your entire post for a few hours, I tend to agree with the whole lot...to a point. Your points are valid enough, but I don't believe they cover the entire spectrum. So many arts comparing themselves to the mother art? None of these guys simply discovered a method within the original art that had the potential to evolve into it's own truth? No, I can't see that as possible, especially with Indonesians as a whole being one of the most "fluid" cultures I've ever experienced. Indonesians take whatever comes thier way (Dutch, Chinese, Islam) and bend it to thier will, not vice versa. And the Sunda ever so much more so.

I think it's simply popular culture that we're dealing with here, that every art was made as a response to Cimande. Kind of like in America, the popular culture of religion here points to a "White Jesus" even though intellectually we know this isn't possible. But try to tell a Southern Baptist Minister that!!

Syahbandar, for example. I have heard several variations on a theme about this one, and they all reflect a central story: A guy from Sumatra who knew Harimau met somebody that knew more than his Harimau covered & defeated him. This led him to learn the other style (nobody really knows what the "other style" was...although I have heard it was from central Java) and created his own system out of that.

I have also heard the story about Syahbandar being a "dock worker's" style, which could also be the case, but most people agree that Syahbandar was a PERSON, not a kampong or a dock.

Pa Herman once said that another story about this guy was that Pa Sera, Pa Syahbandar & Pa Kari all knew each other. That would be interesting!!

Getting back to Cimande for a sec, I do see how popular it is all over Indonesia. Even people who don't know it know ABOUT it. Taxi drivers, aiport attendants, customs officials, waiters, everyone who I have mentioned "Silat" to immediately says "Oh, you do CIMANDE?". No one ever assumes I know Harimau, or Kari, always Cimande. Also, that I cannot be cut. Which is the one thing that I DON'T believe in.

From Bradlee:

A Story about King Siliwangi and his Son is an old story about Pajajaran Kingdom. I'll tell this story sometimes.

Bradlee, Kamu Orang Sunda? That story isn't very well known, and I am surprised to hear you speak of it. I assumed you were from Jakarta.

Yes... i know that "ulin" now refers to "a style of", but what i mean in previous post was... in previous time, elders had made a difference in case how to cover the training.

Okay, that settles it kawan sayah, you are a Lembang boy! Or someplace REAL CLOSE!

Kang Bobbe (Kang = elder brother)

Nah, just "Bobbe". I would rather be "Teman", because "Kang" sounds a little too muluk for me!

although we come from a family who train Cikalong, but still... as the basis, i learned Cimande.

Ya...Pa Herman made us learn Cimande as the basis for Mande Muda, because his mother is from Cimande.

But time changes, especially after pencak open to the west, and people who can pencak think that they can get money from that, then we started to argue which style is the best, as we thought that being the best we will have many student, famous and rich. How pity...

*SIGH*...Yes, to a point, this is true. In America, the Southeast Asian martial arts are gaining momentum faster than almost any other art. And there is a real lack of authentic training here, so we deasperately grab anything that comes our way. Because of this, there are some people who try to exploit it, but in our defense let me say two things:

1: It is almost impossible to really make a living teaching this stuff, no matter how good you are. Every art that comes to America undergoes at least three cataclysmic changes that alter it dramatically from the country it came from:

1: Politics (Who is better than who, who is running the show)
2: Training the Art (teachers who "hold back" information, for whatever reason)
3: Money/what it costs to teach someone (People who open storefront schools Vs. people who teach out of a garage)

2: The culture of Indonesia is way different from the culture here in America. There is no "kampong keluarga" there is only the neighborhood watch. Village/jungle life & socio-eco systems are different, and everything over here costs money. I can't just teach Pencak Silat in the park for free. And the teacher-student relationship is different as well, I have to charge SOMETHING, or else even my best students will take it for granted. But I don't do it for a living, and I charge about half what others charge. Somebady just yesterday said I was "low rent" for what I teach!!

I checked under the bed..found only only an old underware..oh no, its not mine..its must be her...but who?

Pak T, aren't you getting MARRIED soon? HIDE THAT DAMN UNDERWEAR NOW!!!

[Orang Jawa]

Bobbe,
You got that right brother! :)
Tristan

[Steve Perry]

Actually Steve, after going over your entire post for a few hours, I tend to agree with the whole lot...to a point. Your points are valid enough, but I don't believe they cover the entire spectrum. So many arts comparing themselves to the mother art? None of these guys simply discovered a method within the original art that had the potential to evolve into it's own truth? No, I can't see that as possible, especially with Indonesians as a whole being one of the most "fluid" cultures I've ever experienced. Indonesians take whatever comes thier way (Dutch, Chinese, Islam) and bend it to thier will, not vice versa. And the Sunda ever so much more so.

I think it's simply popular culture that we're dealing with here, that every art was made as a response to Cimande. Kind of like in America, the popular culture of religion here points to a "White Jesus" even though intellectually we know this isn't possible. But try to tell a Southern Baptist Minister that!!

Well, I don't think I could begin to cover the entire spectrum, I don't have the background in the other arts in questions. We believe that Silat Sera has a connection to Tjimande -- exactly what that might be, is, of course, iffy to pin down at this late date; however, it is reasonable to assume that martial arts bums who traveled around and studied a number a styles, such as the founders of Sera were reported to have done, would have, in that particular part of the world, likely have bumped into Tjimande players.

If every third guy running around was from that style, it would certainly not strain the imagination to expect that an eclectic student would have be aware of the most prevalent art in the region.

As I understand it, every broad-spectrum martial art of note swipes anything useful it comes across and blends it in, at least in the initial stages before it becomes a pusaka (aka, "hidebound.")

We know that Paul de Thouars and Rudy ter Linden, back when they were still friends, traded techniques, and it is not hard to believe that other students of different systems who happened to find themselves in proximity would have done likewise. It still happens today frequently.

And it wouldn't make me raise an eyebrow at all to believe that a Tjimande student could have wandered off to a village a few miles away and altered what he learned enough to justifying calling it something else -- if he bothered to call it anything at all.

Bruce Lee studied Wing Chung in Hong Kong for what? Four years? And used it as a basis for JKD, which, whatever it is, isn't Wing Chung.

The most telling connection between Sera and Tjimande comes from looking at them and seeing similarities. I don't see these between what Pendekar Sanders' Cimande looks like and Sera, but I do see some when comparing Brother Tristan's moves with Stevan Plinck's. Not the same, but much more closely related than, say, Sera and Harimu, even though we do have groundwork.

There's no proof of what the connection was/is, but just like rock and roll music came from the blues and rockabilly and you can see the evolution, I believe that our art was born close enough to Tjimande so that they may have had a common root, or at least some of the same nutrients in the soil.

Sure, there are Indonesian and Malay silat styles that developed independently of Tjimande. But I see a kinship with Sera.

[bradlee]

Since we are talking about cimande, is it really the oldest of silat styles and the word Chi-mande means river mother or the source of a river if im correct (the origin of all other rivers????)
The word Cimande (not Chi-Mande, also tjimande is an old Spell, now we use Cimande) comes from Ci and Mande. Ci comes from word "cai" (cai is Sundanese, means water... because West Java is rich of water source and river) and mande is tiger. Cimande means water that tiger always come to drink. In Sundanese, it is normal named a place after a water ("cai"), like cikalong, ("kalong" = bat) which means the water where in the three round the river have many bat. Cimanuk, ("manuk" = bird) which means a river that has many birds, etc.

The above quote was very profound, If I may say. As far as being rich? I don't know Bradlee, the few silat players that I have befriended, none of them becomes rich materialisticly from Silat, their richness is having large friends and extended family. So they are few of us still practice the old way.

*SIGH*...Yes, to a point, this is true. In America, the Southeast Asian martial arts are gaining momentum faster than almost any other art. And there is a real lack of authentic training here, so we deasperately grab anything that comes our way. Because of this, there are some people who try to exploit it, but in our defense let me say two things:

1: It is almost impossible to really make a living teaching this stuff, no matter how good you are. Every art that comes to America undergoes at least three cataclysmic changes that alter it dramatically from the country it came from:

1: Politics (Who is better than who, who is running the show)
2: Training the Art (teachers who "hold back" information, for whatever reason)
3: Money/what it costs to teach someone (People who open storefront schools Vs. people who teach out of a garage)

2: The culture of Indonesia is way different from the culture here in America. There is no "kampong keluarga" there is only the neighborhood watch. Village/jungle life & socio-eco systems are different, and everything over here costs money. I can't just teach Pencak Silat in the park for free. And the teacher-student relationship is different as well, I have to charge SOMETHING, or else even my best students will take it for granted. But I don't do it for a living, and I charge about half what others charge. Somebady just yesterday said I was "low rent" for what I teach!!
Because of my poor english, my words had been wrong understood (Is that right Om Tristan? Saya coba bilang, karena jeleknya bahasa Inggris saya, kata-kata saya salah dipahami). What i means which become rich and popular is what happened here in Indonesia. Here, many school tried to issued a weakness and unoriginal of other school, especially when a stranger comes and learns "Penca". They said, this school is bad... this school is a thief, they make a certificate to prove its originallity, etc. But actually, that's happened not only in Pencak. Because of globalitation, it's happened in many aspects of life. Om Tristan, when was the last time you visited Indonesia? Come now here, and you will be suprised.

The other way, i'm very proud of you Bobbe and Om Tristan. Because of people like you, our culture and arts becomes famous and has its place in West. More important is, we can know each other better and build a relationship and peace. :Angel:


Syahbandar, for example. I have heard several variations on a theme about this one, and they all reflect a central story: A guy from Sumatra who knew Harimau met somebody that knew more than his Harimau covered & defeated him. This led him to learn the other style (nobody really knows what the "other style" was...although I have heard it was from central Java) and created his own system out of that.

I have also heard the story about Syahbandar being a "dock worker's" style, which could also be the case, but most people agree that Syahbandar was a PERSON, not a kampong or a dock.Sadly i have to say... Sahbandar isn't a PERSON, but a place. A person its self named Kosim (normally Mama Kosim, Mama here means Great Elders... in a term of Islamic religion). In my family's story, Mama Kosim was a son of Pagaruyung aristocracy (Pagaruyung located in West Sumatra), which had been leaved West Sumatra because of "masalah adat" (a traditional problem). Mama Kosim him self lived in a village named Sahbandar, he learned "Pencak" from his family and also "refined" it after his match with the other when he worked as a dock worker. Then, he learned sufistic from Ajengan Cirata, (Ajengan = Islamic leader, Cirata = Name of a place near Purwakarta and Bandung, also Ajengan Cirata is a Islamic leaders named after a place where he lived). Ajengan Cirata became a Pencak's Student of Mama Kosim, and Mama Kosim became a student of traditional boarding school of Ajengan Cirata. After he learned a sufistic from Ajengan Cirata, his silat style had a new method in inhale and exhale a breath, like you can see in Nampon's video. Nampon him self maybe learned when he met with Mama Kosim in a same traditional boarding school of Ajengan Cirata.


Pa Herman once said that another story about this guy was that Pa Sera, Pa Syahbandar & Pa Kari all knew each other. That would be interesting!!Yes, not only them... but Bang Madi, Bang Ma'ruf, Bang Ateng Alimudin, Ajengan Biru, Ajengan Cirata and a little bit late... with Mama Ibrahim too (Cikalong) ;)


Bradlee, Kamu Orang Sunda? That story isn't very well known, and I am surprised to hear you speak of it. I assumed you were from Jakarta.Yes Bobbe, i'm Sundanese. And The story of King Siliwangi and his son Prince Kiansantang is also important if we want to talk a classic story of Sundanese Pencak Silat. :cool:


Okay, that settles it kawan sayah, you are a Lembang boy! Or someplace REAL CLOSE!
Hahaha... you right Bobbe, my house is approximately 3 km from Pak Herman's family. But i never learned from Pak Herman's family, saya hanya pengagum nya saja. :o

ps: Om Tristan, when will you get married? :eek: Oh God, congratulation! Then hurry... hide that underwear! :D

[Orang Jawa]

Selamat pagi Bradlee,
Between you and Kiai, both of you provide us with solid and priceless information aobut silat and its origin. Thank you both!
I have not been home in the last five years. I'm planning to go home this year, Insya Allah!
For whatever its worth, I'm getting married in August this year. This is my second marriage. I have five chlidren from the first marriage which ended in devorced 9 years ago. I've been "straight" say to speak, since I met my current fiance. I don't have any choices, she is a psychologist, she knew..you know what I meant.
Bersatu kita teguh, bercerai kita runtuh.
Tristan