Proper usage of the Shaolin name

[James Kovacich]

Should any martial art system using Shaolin in their name be allowed to use this name without a verifiable link to Shaolin Temple? Should they be held accountable to their right to the usage of their name?

I’ve been researching the links between Shaolin Kempo and their related systems but there is no Shaolin link that is strong enough to justify the usage of the Shaolin name. Most of the links are very minor and are in fashion a reflection of Shaolin.

Most of the links that seem to be promising turn out to be like this that includes Mitoses myth.
http://www.kempokai.com/history.htm

[DAnjo]

Should any martial art system using Shaolin in their name be allowed to use this name without a verifiable link to Shaolin Temple? Should they be held accountable to their right to the usage of their name?

I’ve been researching the links between Shaolin Kempo and their related systems but there is no Shaolin link that is strong enough to justify the usage of the Shaolin name. Most of the links are very minor and are in fashion a reflection of Shaolin.

Most of the links that seem to be promising turn out to be like this that includes Mitoses myth.
http://www.kempokai.com/history.htm


Good question. Obviously the name came into Vogue with the TV series in the 1970's but before that It seems that it was from the idea that most martial arts trace their roots back to the Shaolin Temple at some point in their distant past. I have heard various things but that the first person to call their art "Shaolin Kenpo" was Prof. Chow. He dropped this in favor of one of his various names for his art (there were several that I can't remember) and Then Castro picked it up. After that, I think it was Villari that used it with the keMpo spelling.

I don't know why Prof. Chow called his art Shaolin Kenpo in the first place. Perhaps others here could shed light on that one.

[dianhsuhe]

Probably because Professor Chow learned Kung-Fu from his father... This is just my educated guess--

[DAnjo]

Probably because Professor Chow learned Kung-Fu from his father... This is just my educated guess--

I've heard this one also.

[dianhsuhe]

Professor changed the name of his art several times, I believe the first time was to distance himself from Mitose.

Question for AKJA: I am only familiar with Shotokan from research but why do you feel it is not a good art? (Your post may have been on MT, I toggle between them, sorry)

Take care guys and remember to come out fighting! LOL

[kickingfist]

According to questionable sources, the evolution of Shaolin Kempo moves are as follows:

Defensive Maneuvers 1-21 come from Kejukenbo
Defensive Maneuvers 22-27 stem from Kara Zenpo Goshin Jitsu
Many Kempo Punch Techniques and club and knife defenses are derived from Kajukenpo
Katas 1-5 are from Kara Zenpo Goshin Jitsu
The Pinans are standard to most traditional martial arts



http://www.answers.com/topic/united-studios-of-self-defense

This is were I found this take from it what you will.

[DAnjo]

According to questionable sources, the evolution of Shaolin Kempo moves are as follows:

Defensive Maneuvers 1-21 come from Kejukenbo
Defensive Maneuvers 22-27 stem from Kara Zenpo Goshin Jitsu
Many Kempo Punch Techniques and club and knife defenses are derived from Kajukenpo
Katas 1-5 are from Kara Zenpo Goshin Jitsu
The Pinans are standard to most traditional martial arts



http://www.answers.com/topic/united-studios-of-self-defense

This is were I found this take from it what you will.

Well, you're referring to Villari's version of SKK here. The DMs are not from Kajukenbo with the exception of DM #4. The rest are from Karazenpo as far as I know. There are no set knife, club or punch counters in SKK aside from the Combinations/DMs, so they vary widely from place to place. Kata's 1-5 are from Karazenpo and Pinan 1-5 are variants of Shotokan kata that have been modified by either Pesare or others that followed him.

[kickingfist]

Well, you're referring to Villari's version of SKK here. The DMs are not from Kajukenbo with the exception of DM #4. The rest are from Karazenpo as far as I know. There are no set knife, club or punch counters in SKK aside from the Combinations/DMs, so they vary widely from place to place. Kata's 1-5 are from Karazenpo and Pinan 1-5 are variants of Shotokan kata that have been modified by either Pesare or others that followed him.


There are some knife and gun combos in ussd but i dont remeber them or where they came from.
I just dont like how ussd says they teach shaolin when there is no shaolin in their system. :bang:

[John Bishop]

According to questionable sources, the evolution of Shaolin Kempo moves are as follows:

Defensive Maneuvers 1-21 come from Kejukenbo
Defensive Maneuvers 22-27 stem from Kara Zenpo Goshin Jitsu
Many Kempo Punch Techniques and club and knife defenses are derived from Kajukenpo
Katas 1-5 are from Kara Zenpo Goshin Jitsu
The Pinans are standard to most traditional martial arts



http://www.answers.com/topic/united-studios-of-self-defense

This is were I found this take from it what you will.

The cirriculum of the "Original Method" of Kajukenbo is as follows:

Palama Sets (katas) 1-14
Punch Counters 1-21
Grab Arts 1-15
Club Counters 1-13
Knife Counters 1-15
Alphabets A-Z
2-Man Counters 1-8
3-Man Counters 1-6
4-Man Counter 1

The only technique in Shaolin Kempo that resembles Kajukenbo is "DM-4", which is similiar, but not the same as "Punch Counter 6". So apparently over the generations the Kajukenbo has been removed from what became Shaolin Kempo.

[James Kovacich]

According to questionable sources, the evolution of Shaolin Kempo moves are as follows:

Defensive Maneuvers 1-21 come from Kejukenbo
Defensive Maneuvers 22-27 stem from Kara Zenpo Goshin Jitsu
Many Kempo Punch Techniques and club and knife defenses are derived from Kajukenpo
Katas 1-5 are from Kara Zenpo Goshin Jitsu
The Pinans are standard to most traditional martial arts



http://www.answers.com/topic/united-studios-of-self-defense

This is were I found this take from it what you will.

Although questionable. That site did lead to what I was asking. Pretty much anyone can use the Shaolin name because today there are no direct ties to the Shaolin temple except for the ones that some instructors are trying to make which their instructors did not do before them.

Mike Rash trained for a summer at the Shaolin Temple and was awarded a diploma of sort to teach 1 form. In the old days that would be unheard of no matter what the skill the student had before hand.

Wing Chun for instance took about 10 years to be an instructor. They have 3 forms and it "used to take" 3 years for just the first form and much of the 1st year would be spent mopping and general cleaning the Kwoon or Temple. I think the Shaolin Temple is to commercial and the usage of Shaolin dosen't mean anything and nobody has exclusive rights to it. It has become as generic as the words Kempo and Ju Jitsu which are untrademarkable and belong to no-one and everyone.

But at the same time if a group calling themself by a generic name and someone falsely represented them, then the ownership of the name comes into play. Although a tricky issue, safeguards should be put into place so that does not happen.

[slipthejab]

Should any martial art system using Shaolin in their name be allowed to use this name without a verifiable link to Shaolin Temple? Should they be held accountable to their right to the usage of their name?



And who exactly is going to police this?
What jurisdiction does it fall under?
And who will enforce penalties?
:D :rolleyes:

[DAnjo]

Although questionable. That site did lead to what I was asking. Pretty much anyone can use the Shaolin name because today there are no direct ties to the Shaolin temple except for the ones that some instructors are trying to make which their instructors did not do before them.

Mike Rash trained for a summer at the Shaolin Temple and was awarded a diploma of sort to teach 1 form. In the old days that would be unheard of no matter what the skill the student had before hand.

Wing Chun for instance took about 10 years to be an instructor. They have 3 forms and it "used to take" 3 years for just the first form and much of the 1st year would be spent mopping and general cleaning the Kwoon or Temple. I think the Shaolin Temple is to commercial and the usage of Shaolin dosen't mean anything and nobody has exclusive rights to it. It has become as generic as the words Kempo and Ju Jitsu which are untrademarkable and belong to no-one and everyone.

But at the same time if a group calling themself by a generic name and someone falsely represented them, then the ownership of the name comes into play. Although a tricky issue, safeguards should be put into place so that does not happen.

This "Real Shaolin" business is a bit confusing to put it mildly. I was at a seminar with the Shaolin Monks hosted by the USSD in 2003 in Anaheim. They taught us a form and performed for us the following day. Well, it was mostly acrobatics mixed with kung fu. It was what has been referred to as "modern wu shu" and it has little or nothing to do with what the original Shaolin Monks taught and practiced a century ago. To get that, you have to look at the traditional Kung Fu schools that had their origins in the Shaolin School. There were MANY arts that came out of the original Shaolin Temples Northern and Southern.

Having said that, what the Shaolin Monks showed us had NOTHING to do with Shaolin Kempo Karate. Yes yes the Abbot (read Puppet for Chinese Govt.) read us some prepared statement that said we were practicing real kung fu etc., but it had far more to do with the fact that the USSD gave them a reported $150,000.00 . This also got the USSD a monument at the Shaolin Temple. Ah yes, I can see it now, the image of Kwai Chang Caine next to the USSD monument. What a joke.

Most of the real Shaolin practitioners went to Taiwan in the early 20th century and stayed there. The Monks that are there now have far more in common with Jackie Chan's Chinese Opera training than real Kung Fu. It's impressive to look at, but it's not real fighting.

[James Kovacich]

I wish I had 150K to blow. You wouldn't find me in here thats for sure. I always thought the name I chose for my system was not associated close enough to create problems but I see that to not be true. As I see the Shaolin mess, I see my own mess. Martial art names can be misleading and sometimes we need to guarantee that we are not associated with those with similar named systems.

[kickingfist]

I thinks its a $150,000 for a ussd dojo now?

[KenpoDavid]

"...then let the name of Shaolin be wiped out, for that is what it is, just a name. Please don't fuss over it." :love:

[KenpoDavid]

This came up last night in class, we had a prospective student, who asked about the name "is this like Shaolin temple style?" and I told him no, it was not. I told him that "Kempo" in Japan is a broad term that refers to any art of Chinese origin, and that early developers of SKK called their style "Shaolin" to indicate, and honor, the chinese style elements built into the system. I also told him it was called that to help market it, because people knew what "Shaolin" was and what "karate" was, but Shaolin Kempo Karate is neither Shaolin nor Karate. So he, of course, asked where it came from and I said...

[Colin Linz]

In the past there have been some very effective campaigns run by the Chinese governments to wipe out various forms of kempo. The last one, in 1911 was particularly effective, wiping out many schools and killing many teachers. This has made verifiable documentation or first hand witness testimonials scarce.

When Doshin So was there studying under Wen-Lanshi, his second teacher and the 20th head of the North Shaolin Temple Ihermen-thuen (Giwamonken in Japanese) style the temple was all but abandoned, there were very few people in general studying kempo at this time. Guns where relatively cheap quick to learn how to use and more effective. When Doshin So replaced Wen-Lanshi as the 21st head of this Shaolin style (debated by some) he had no desire to teach it for a living and stated he only accepted it to make his master happy. During the 1970’s the Chinese Government approached him and asked if he would reintroduce the art to the Shaolin Temple, unfortunately he died of a heart attack before being able to do so.

Even though our art is named Shorinji Kempo (Shaolin Temple Kempo) it is not the art that Doshin So learned, it is a restructuring of his total knowledge. The name has more to do with the philosophy and ideals that he wanted to recreate than the martial art.

A couple of photos of Doshin So's return to the Shaolin Temple. The elderly monk greeting him was the caretaker there when Doshin So underwent his transmission of leadership ceremony
http://www.shorinjikempo-cartagena.org/kaiso_in_china_1980_2_closeup.jpg

http://www.shorinjikempo-cartagena.org/kaiso_and_monk_de_shan.jpg

[James Kovacich]

So you're saying theres nothing left of the Shaolin teachings?

[John Bishop]

I think what he's saying is that "Shaolin" died out at the actual Shaolin temples. Mostly due to government oppression and persecution. The teachings spread and flourished outside of mainland China, in Taiwan (Formosa), and the English colony of Hong Kong.
After President Nixon re-opened relations with China, it became a tourist thing to make a prigrimage to "the Shaolin Temple". When my instructor (Gary Forbach) and a American group of martial artists were invited by the Chinese government to visit China in 1981, they found that there were only 7 monks living at the temple at the time, and that martial arts was no longer practiced at the temple. Since then the government has filled the temple with monks trained in the official Chinese martial sport of wu-shu. It's one of the most popular tourist attractions in China. Tourists mean $$$ to China, so they've put a lot of effort back into popularizing the temple.

[James Kovacich]

That would answer a lot of questions. We see a lot Shaolin marketing and I wondered how they could let that happen. So they may see Mattera and Demasco as helping them and that might explain their connection to the Temple.

[James Kovacich]

Question for AKJA: I am only familiar with Shotokan from research but why do you feel it is not a good art? (Your post may have been on MT, I toggle between them, sorry)


Besides the information received from the Infamous Internet Trollbasher. I trained in a derivitive of Shotokan. Mr. Tarow Hayashi made the changes he found necesary in or around 1961. 1961 was the year that I was told from my brother-in-law, my instructor and student of Mr. Hayashi.

The major changes he made as they were presented in our class were at Gokyu which was the first rank of the intermediate class. In the intermediate class all stances, blocks and strikes were modified. Our hands were up and our fighting stance and foot movement resembled a kickboxer and the left jab and right cross replaced the left front lunge and reverse right punch (from a conventional stance). We kneed, blocked, parryied, kicked, elbowed as well everything else from this stance or similar modified stances. Judo/Jujutsu was a separate class but in the full contact Kumiuchi class we trained Judo as well.

Once in the intermediate class we were still required to attend at least once a week in the beginner class in order to train the whole system. At Rokukyu the students were required to attend the beginner class once a week and the intermediate class once a week. I'm not sure if that was my brother-in-laws addition or not.

But this training evolved into Mr. Hayashis full contact fighting system which we called Kumiuchi which consisted of full contact fighting primarily a mix of Karate, Kickboxing and Judo.
http://www.hayashismartialarts.com/free_form_combat.htm

To answer your question from experience I have issues with a lot of training methods but Shotokan has been raped and watered down quite a bit and we can even place some of the blame on Kenneth Funokoshi who more recently has said he is a distant nephew several times removed and as little as 15 years ago his yellow page ad read "Grandson to Gichin Funokoshi."

[Colin Linz]

Basically it is as John says. Some stuff went offshore while other arts drifted into obscurity. The White Lotus style or Byakurenmonken in Japanese only exists as a class of techniques within Shorinji Kempo now.

In the 1950’s Doshin So was invited back to China for the Chinese national competition. In one of his books he remarks that there appeared to be little left of kempo in China, it was all just callisthenics now. For anyone seeing the current Shaolin shows this has a very real ring to it. I don’t mean to trivialise their performances and feats, they are amazing guys and deserve credit for their abilities, I just don’t see how what they do is relative to martial arts.

[Johnno]

I think what he's saying is that "Shaolin" died out at the actual Shaolin temples. Mostly due to government oppression and persecution. The teachings spread and flourished outside of mainland China, in Taiwan (Formosa), and the English colony of Hong Kong.
Very true. Also amongst the large Chinese communities in Malaysia and Singapore , which is the route that our system (Shaolin Nam Pai Chuan) traces it's lineage back to it's origins in Buddhist temples in southern China.

(Please excuse me butting into a Kempo thread, but the subject is of interest to me.)

Respectfully,

[James Kovacich]

So there is "legitimate" Shaolin martial arts outside of China but not in China. Which martial arts would be legitimate Shaolin lineage? And how much of these arts is truly Shaolin martial art?

[Johnno]

So there is "legitimate" Shaolin martial arts outside of China but not in China. Which martial arts would be legitimate Shaolin lineage? And how much of these arts is truly Shaolin martial art?Lineage is such a big issue with Chinese MA's. There are so many of them, and so many myths surround their history. When you look at Japanese MA's, everything seems so neat and clean by comparison! (Until you try to trace lineage back to China - and then it gets messy. :D )

I've seen numerous threads arguing about what went on at the Shaolin
temple(s). Whatever anyone says, it always seems to stir up a hornets nest!

My feeling about Shaolin and MA styles is this:

- Many styles were practised at various times at the temples. Some originated there and spread to the outside, while others originated outside (e.g. 'family' styles) and were subsequently practised inside. All these styles probably influenced each other to some degree, so which are truly 'Shaolin' or not is a moot point.

- Since Shaolin was such a prestiguous name in Chinese MA, I would imagine that quite a few styles which had no relation to the Shaolin temples themselves associated themselves with the Shaolin name to enhance their reputations.

- The Shaolin temples (especially the southern one) became closely associated with Chinese nationalist resistance movements at various times - especially during the Qing Dynasty. As such, they became national symbols and were associated with secret societies and politics. This added to the sense of mystery and secrecy, and therefore legends and lies.

Please excuse me if I've just made a long post stating the obvious. :o

[DAnjo]

Lineage is such a big issue with Chinese MA's. There are so many of them, and so many myths surround their history. When you look at Japanese MA's, everything seems so neat and clean by comparison! (Until you try to trace lineage back to China - and then it gets messy. :D )

I've seen numerous threads arguing about what went on at the Shaolin
temple(s). Whatever anyone says, it always seems to stir up a hornets nest!

My feeling about Shaolin and MA styles is this:

- Many styles were practised at various times at the temples. Some originated there and spread to the outside, while others originated outside (e.g. 'family' styles) and were subsequently practised inside. All these styles probably influenced each other to some degree, so which are truly 'Shaolin' or not is a moot point.

- Since Shaolin was such a prestiguous name in Chinese MA, I would imagine that quite a few styles which had no relation to the Shaolin temples themselves associated themselves with the Shaolin name to enhance their reputations.

- The Shaolin temples (especially the southern one) became closely associated with Chinese nationalist resistance movements at various times - especially during the Qing Dynasty. As such, they became national symbols and were associated with secret societies and politics. This added to the sense of mystery and secrecy, and therefore legends and lies.

Please excuse me if I've just made a long post stating the obvious. :o


Very well said. I agree with what you've written here from my reading on the subject. There was no one Shaolin style but many.

[James Kovacich]

What styles deserve the right to use the Shaolin name and why?

[Colin Linz]

In the early stages of its development the kempo practiced at the Shaolin Temple had no set. It was sometimes refered to as Nalo-jan and at other times Arohan. In later years it was called I-jinsin to distinguish it from zazen. No doubt that in the years following various practitioners of other arts would have sought sanctuary or joined the Shaolin Temple, further exposing the Temple to other styles and methods.

To make an accurate determination of what styles are related would be very difficult these days due to the lack of verifiable records. I guess all you can do is look at what evidence there is and make your own decision. My own opinion is that while Shorinji Kempo is not the kempo that Doshin So studied in China it is still a direct relation, while the philosophy we study is more directly related to Doshin So’s experience with his two Shaolin teachers and his life in China (Doshin So lived in China for much of his early life, from about 11 years old).

[DAnjo]

What styles deserve the right to use the Shaolin name and why?

In his book, "Martial Musings" and others, Robert W. Smith tends to identify any non-internal style as Shaolin in origin. Some where Northern and Some Southern. The Three that were not Shaolin according to him were Hsing-I, Ba Gua and Tai Chi. There was one more, but it was due to it's being older than Shaolin in origin and it was a grappling art used by the Chinese Army called Shuai-Chiao. It's supposedly the oldest formal style of Kung Fu in China.

[guan-gi]

Where does wing chun fall in that comendium. To my understanding (which is admiteddly limited) wing chun is both external and internal. Does it have origins one of the temples?

[James Kovacich]

http://www.atlantamartialarts.com/styles/wingchun.htm
Wing Chun was an obscure and little known art until the mid twentieth century. While multiple histories of the art do exist (some with only minor discrepancies), the generally accepted version is thus:

The style traces its roots back over 250 years ago to the Southern Shaolin Temple. At that time, the temple a was sanctuary to the Chinese revolution that was trying to overthrow the ruling Manchu. A classical martial arts system was taught in the temple which took 15-20 years to produce an efficient fighter.......

[Johnno]

What styles deserve the right to use the Shaolin name and why?It is difficult to say who has the 'right'. I think every style should show it's lineage, but beyond a certain point this always seems to be shrouded in myth and legend. But if a style calls itself 'Shaolin' without showing any lineage at all then I'd be inclined to view it with some suspicion, personally.

[guan-gi]

Agreed. Most of the time it is a marketing ploy. The question is--why would the use of Shaolin make a martial art more desirable?

[Johnno]

Agreed. Most of the time it is a marketing ploy. The question is--why would the use of Shaolin make a martial art more desirable?Quite simply because Shaolin was the most famous name in CMA's. It seems to have been rather like the 'university' of CMA!

[James Kovacich]

It is difficult to say who has the 'right'. I think every style should show it's lineage, but beyond a certain point this always seems to be shrouded in myth and legend. But if a style calls itself 'Shaolin' without showing any lineage at all then I'd be inclined to view it with some suspicion, personally.

I never thought that when I chose the "generic" name for my system "Kempo Ju Jitsu" I would have rattled so many feathers. I think a name change is coming.

How about Shaolin Kempo Ju Jitsu? ;) :D

[Johnno]

I never thought that when I chose the "generic" name for my system "Kempo Ju Jitsu" I would have rattled so many feathers. I think a name change is coming.

How about Shaolin Kempo Ju Jitsu? ;) :DSo did you start your own system?

[James Kovacich]

Yes.

[guan-gi]

You could travel to the temple for a couple of weeks to train just to make it "authentic"! :)

[James Kovacich]

And sell Shaolin tapes.

[Colin Linz]

I think that Shaolin’s name is desirable because of its reputation, not only is it popular because of cheesy seventies TV programs here, but in Asia because of its history and ideals.

The Shaolin Temple has had a long history of campaigns against governments. The Imperial Chinese government never recognised political parties or legitimate agencies of popular protest. Secret societies where use as political tools to help effect change. Many of these societies were united in and based upon a religious sects, The Shaolin Temple being the most well known. The Boxer Rebelion of 1900 was an act of one of these. The Boxers came from an amalgamation of the Great Sword Society and the Red Spear Society, forming the The Fists of the Righteous Harmony.

Further to them being a champion of sorts for the general populace there is also the respect gained for their ideals for training. They were not training just to be tough fighters, but as a way to reach enlightenment. The physically demanding training was seen as a Gyo (method of spiritual development), it was the counterbalance for Zazen (meditation). This is where the Shaolin Temple stood alone in China. There were martial arts there before, but the Shaolin Temple was the first place to use martial arts as a developmental tool for the human spirit. They sought not only to create strong fighters but also to create people that would act morally and value other human life.