taijutsu and bjj

[mild7]

I always wondered why there is'nt more crosstraining between these two arts?

being a former practictioner of bujinkan budo taijutsu, I always felt there were a lot of unanswered questions on ground fighting.
everything else is pretty much spot on.

and for BJJ, it sure could do with more weaponry elements!

both are 'street' MA's which shun the use of pointless, long stylistic kata and both prefer technique, and both encourage openmindedness(look at how BJJers like crosstraining in other arts, and how Taijutsu uses anything that works.)

what do you all think?

[Kinjiro Tsukasa]

I'm not familiar with BJJ, but in my BBT class, we do spend a fair amount of time on the ground.

[mild7]

oh, sorry, BJJ is Brazilian Jiujitsu.

The only reason why I brought it up is because I remember how openminded my Bujinkan instructor was... esp towards arts like BJJ which could offer a lot in terms of groundfighting.

There is indeed groundfighting in BBT, but it is not like the science that BJJ is on the ground.

[xplasma]

I actually cross trained a lot between Tai-jutsu and Bjj. And one my Teachers that been doing BJJ for many years came from Tai-jutsu.

its a great combo. why?

Taijutsu is a great art, but lacks in ground fighting, there is a alot there but BJJ does it better.

After searching around for a bit I finally came to these 3 arts to Cross training.

Ninjutsu (Genbukan)
Great all around art
BJJ
Fills in gaps of Tai-jutsu, especally on the ground
Kali
Fills in gaps in weapon fighting such as small and dual blades, and stick fighting.

I will am creating a website will some of my matrial art expirence and outline of my fighting arts soon. The majority of it will be ninjutsu and parts will be from other arts that I feel fill in the gaps that ninjutsu has . I"ll let you know when its ready

[Sonshu]

To be fully effective as the use of the fudoken is done to much and there is not enough sparing in many clubs (well the 5 or so I have trained in).

[mild7]

good posts all!

Taijutsu is indeed a fine art. I do wish it had more sparring though, and more groundwork.

Taijutsu clubs that spar fullcontact are plain scary.... they would do very well both on the street and even in No-rules competition...

[stump]

mild 7 - so why are they not competing do you think?

Not trying to be confrontational...I'd like to know

[Sonshu]

I dont know any full contact Taijitsu clubs!

[xplasma]

Originally posted by stump
mild 7 - so why are they not competing do you think?

Not trying to be confrontational...I'd like to know

2 reasons.

1. Full contact Taijustu sparring exists are both my Genbukan Dojos. The problem is Taijutsu uses small joints locks, pressure points. organ/skin/muscle tearing I even been bitten during a Taijutsu sparring match. Hence, its very illegal in the ring.

2. Taijutsu isn't a tournment art. Actually I feel a Taijutsu artist would lose in the ring due to the "rules" of the tournment. Taijutsu is a surivial arts, it teaches people how to survive any situation, rather then win a trophy.

[stump]

So how do the people who spar full contact taijutsu avoid killing each other week in and week out?

[mild7]

ok guys.

first off, I am NOT a Taijutsu practitioner. It is something I did in the past, but I am a BJJer now. I have also been a judoka for the past 6 yrs and practice Muay Thai.

now that we have cleared up any potential biasness.... here is the answer to why you have not seen any taijutsu competitors do well in comp yet...

(1)most Taijutsu/ninjutsu schools don't do fullcontact sparring.
(2)the ones that do are too far and few in between
(3)groundwork is still relatively undeveloped!

It is kind of like the case with Luta Livre in brazil. Luta Livre(as practiced by Hugo Duarte) is actually WAY more sound than BJJ for NHB... no gi training, equal striking and grappling. But they still don't do well because there are just too few ppl in the art!! (i.e. genepool is deficient of talent, as stated on bjj.org)

Now can you imagine, if there were a WHOLE lot of taijutsu schools, all of them practicing fullcontact sparring, all of them focusing on more groundwork than they usually do.

You would have some pretty good fighters from that.



STILL, at the end of the day, I think just doing Muay Thai and BJJ would be a more direct and solid combination to fight in no-rules comp. And yes, I do believe a guy with this combo would do MUCH better than a fullcontact taijutsu guy.

But if comp is'nt your bag, finding a fullcontact taijutsu place is a good compromise.

I donno, these are just some random thoughts from me. do i make any sense?

[mild7]

Also, I guess I might have overstated it when I said they would do 'very well' in no-rules comp.

I will revise that and say, they will have a decent showing in no-rules. i.e. a whole lot better than other TMAs.

[xplasma]

Originally posted by stump
So how do the people who spar full contact taijutsu avoid killing each other week in and week out?

We only do it once a week, and cuts and bruises heal. If someone doesn't like pain, taijutsu in the Genbukan system isn't for them.

Quote from the Grandmaster:

"If all else fails, bite the opponent on any part of the body, never releasing the grip until one feels that the opponent has truely surrendered"

-Tanemura Sensei

That is straight out of the San-kyu requiments.


The idea is know your limit, if you can in too much pain to fight then don't fight, your body will heal itself, and there is always modern medience.

[Sonshu]

Just thought I would add my experience of Aikido.

Cheers

[natxanadu]

Standup BJJ contradicts Taijutsu, as far as I know,

BJJ Closing the distance and going for the clinch
Taijujutsu Keeping the oponent at arms length

[Sonshu]

it aims to cover all - everyone in my class fought at different ranges - I was the main stay of the close work fighting. My ground work and throwing techniques was my best strength as I had moved away more from the striking aspect (except for the entry)

I would say its not a range fighting art at all. Thats Kick Boxing, Karate etc.

Judo is a close art and its nagiwaza shares the Judo techniques and is close.

[natxanadu]

Budo Taijutsu proberly varies alot from school to school, I found that it contradicted my Jujutsu training. Thats my experience anyway

[Sonshu]

In its grappling - yet more usefull in its striking and punch defence work.

[Freeform]

Tai Jitsu Sparring (http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=376&perpage=15&highlight=jitsu&pagenumber=2)

[Duncan Mitchell]

Here is an excellent article which sums it up quite well I think:
http://www.budotech.com/jvm/nagato2.html

Nagato-sensei gave an interesting talk - and some practice - in groundfighting when I was in Japan a couple of months ago too.

Have a look at the Video - "Budo was Nan Desu ka" (If only just to see my 5 minutes of fame :D ) that Hatsumi-sensei put out a while ago. It covers quite a lot of the basic ideas in Bujinkan ne-waza.

Remember that Hatsumi-sensei and many of the shihan like Nagato-sensei are very senior practitioners in Judo too. They have forgotten more about groundfighting than most of these instructors who claim to teach it know.

[natxanadu]

Intersting article !

[mild7]

interesting article.

I believe some of Nagato sensei's principles have a lot to offer, that is, survival, grab rocks and bash the other guy in the face, gouge eyes etc.

at the same time it is not solving the problem altogether. The issue here is NOT to beat groundfighters at their own game; the issue to do develop adequate groundfighting skills as a platform from which you can apply survival/street principles!!

what I mean is this. If you truly believe that all you need to cover the issue of groundfighting is to say, 'oh, i'll just do dirty tactics, pick up a rock or stick and that's all I have to do'.
Now, if this is what you think is all there is to it, you're going to be in big trouble when a bigger, experienced opponent takes the fight to the ground. Why? your dirty tactics won't work on him if he has any experience, and also, you don't always have convenient weapons around or with you.

Ok, a better way to get you to see the problem with the 'just pick up a rock' attitude is this; why don't you simple apply it to standup fighting as well?? Forget the kihon happo, all you need to beat a guy trying to punch and kick you is to pick up a rock or stick!!!

It's not about that. It is about establishing an adequete platform of skill, be it standup or groundfighting. From that, you can apply principles of survival. Otherwise, you're not much better off than a 50 yr old mother that attended a few self-defense courses. :)

Something to think about I think, and I wish more traditional MA's would look at it this way instead of coming up with convenient answers.

btw, I think Nagato is cool, so I'm not exactly dissing him here. He is damn good at what he does.

[Sonshu]

Just needs much more doing on the groundwork side of it.

Also more sparing needs to be added.

[Duncan Mitchell]

Originally posted by mild7
interesting article.

I believe some of Nagato sensei's principles have a lot to offer, that is, survival, grab rocks and bash the other guy in the face, gouge eyes etc.

at the same time it is not solving the problem altogether. The issue here is NOT to beat groundfighters at their own game; the issue to do develop adequate groundfighting skills as a platform from which you can apply survival/street principles!!

what I mean is this. If you truly believe that all you need to cover the issue of groundfighting is to say, 'oh, i'll just do dirty tactics, pick up a rock or stick and that's all I have to do'.
Now, if this is what you think is all there is to it, you're going to be in big trouble when a bigger, experienced opponent takes the fight to the ground. Why? your dirty tactics won't work on him if he has any experience, and also, you don't always have convenient weapons around or with you.

Ok, a better way to get you to see the problem with the 'just pick up a rock' attitude is this; why don't you simple apply it to standup fighting as well?? Forget the kihon happo, all you need to beat a guy trying to punch and kick you is to pick up a rock or stick!!!

It's not about that. It is about establishing an adequete platform of skill, be it standup or groundfighting. From that, you can apply principles of survival. Otherwise, you're not much better off than a 50 yr old mother that attended a few self-defense courses. :)

Something to think about I think, and I wish more traditional MA's would look at it this way instead of coming up with convenient answers.

btw, I think Nagato is cool, so I'm not exactly dissing him here. He is damn good at what he does.

I think you missed the point

The issue is not whether you need groundfighting skills or not but how you should develop skills.

I've seen so much of the pathetic attitude of various "martial artists" - particularly on the internet - of this new "do a little bit of this and a little bit of that". Let's just not get seriously GOOD at anything. The real solution is "work harder, train harder". If you want to get good at groundfighting then be prepared to train VERY HARD day in day out and remember that you still won't have the level of skill of a specialist.

So the solution should be to train harder in your basics of punching and kicking, taisabaki, locks, throws, controls ... and on the ground - pins, sweeps, escapes etc etc. Basics form every angle and every situation until it is instinctive. Playing your own game well is far more important than playing everyone else's half well. Hatsumi-sensei once said that when you are faced against a boxer - don't think about boxing ... when against a judoka - don't think about judo. Also if your a faced against a boxer (or any specialist) don't think "how do I fight a boxer?" but have him thinking "How do I fight a budoka?".

So if you are faced with fighting a specialist in his comfort zone - for example a grappler on the ground - then use every dirty trick you can think of to get the situation back under your control and into YOUR comfort zone (assuming you have spent enough hours hard training to have one). Yes you need ground control skills but don't expect to face a real grappler with something half-arsed. Do whatever is required to win.

[mild7]

hi duncan,

I agree with the 'little bit of this and that' attitude to be quite detrimental. You end up with half-baked skills that way.

I was basically pointing out that a strong basic knowledge of groundfighting would be helpful.

Of course, it is not a neccesity. Most ppl on the street don't have groundfighting skills. But to be totally complete, Budo Taijutsu would have to embrace it.

not trying to convert anybody here. just thought it'd be an interesting topic.

[mild7]

before anyone kills me, like a certain person has on another thread, Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is an art I respect a lot. If Brazilian Jiujitsu suddenly ceased to exist, I'd dedicate my life to Taijutsu. That's just me though