Kenpo for the Cage

[dbmasters]

In many traditional MA's people often use the "my art is too deadly for the cage" line to justify their never fighting in competitions outside their Dojo or outside of point sparring. While I don't formally fight I do train with a lot of guys that do fight MMA so I am put into that situation a lot and have found that some of my Kenpo is surprisingly effective int he situations, in particular the blocks and parries of puches diverting attacks which many MMA guys never deal with, as they are more accustomed to bobbing and weaving and such.

Does anyone here ever compete MMA and find their Kenpo training effective? Just curious if anyone has the same findings I have found...

[James Kovacich]

Some technique can be found effective in MMA from any TMA. The question is the style effective in MMA. No, none of the Ken/mpo systems have what it takes WITHOUT going outside of their systems.

They need to train more realistic and drop the weak and useless "portions" of the systems that take a lifetime to master.

Here is a quote from the only Hawaiian Kempo master to actually understand and prove my point.

"In 1985, when I moved from Hawaii to California, I switched it from Kaju Kenbo to Hawaiian Kempo. I added some things to it, took away some things and started calling it Hawaiian Kempo. I took out the katas and the forms and I threw in more natural fighting techniques and conditioning. Now that’s my style. Like if you see Chuck (Liddell) with the tattoo on his arm, that’s the logo for my school."

Hackleman says back in the ‘90s other martial artists began calling their style Hawaiian Kenpo, but he is the only instructor to spell his Hawaiian Kempo with an ‘m’. In Japanese, the letters ‘m’ and ‘n’ have the same symbol, so the art can be spelt either way. John has been spelling his art as Kempo since 1985.

"Ours is a little more hardcore. In Hawaiian Kenpo they still do forms and stuff like that. When you see the guys such as Chuck fighting, that’s Hawaiian Kempo. Mine has always been a mixed martial art ever since I started it."

[dbmasters]

No, none of the Ken/mpo systems have what it takes WITHOUT going outside of their systems.
Well, thats obvious enough, my question was more to people that do fight MMA wondering what parts of their Kenpo training they have found most helpful in the cage. It's very obvious that Kenpo itself isn't a "cage art", so to speak.

[Colin Linz]

I don’t know that much about MMA contests, they just don’t interest me. I would think however, that things like timing and strategy would be a direct crossover. From the technique side it would probably depend on the art. Even with grappling gloves some techniques from some arts may not work that well. Some of the more combat oriented forms of Bujutsu may also need to be modified to ensure the player remains within the rule set for the competition. We had a young guy that wanted to compete in a Knockdown tournament a few years ago. He was familiar with their rule set but because he didn’t train within them he instinctively punched his opponent in the head when he was attacked, this resulted in his opponent falling to the ground and a disqualification for him. For him to achieve better results he would need to stop training within our open target randori environment and move to their competitive training environment. This would have achieved better competition results, but at a loss of his Shorinji Kempo skill.

I believe in France an ex Shorinji Kempo kenshi has created a MMA to rival the popularity of the American styles. He based it on Shorinji Kempo goho (striking) combined with some form of grappling. Shorinji Kempo juho (locks, throws, chokes, ect) use a number of small joint manipulations; I believe these are illegal in many MMA competitions.

[KenpoDavid]

Jeff Newton, an EPAK student of Bob White, fought Sam Hogar a couple of months ago. He was unable to stop Hogar's takedowns, and was unable to escape and get back to his feet.

[dbmasters]

Oh, yes, there have been a few Kenpoists that pretty much embarrassed themselves in MMA, mostly because, it appears, they didn't crosstrain in ground fighting, which one really needs in MMA. Kenpo in and of itself isn't the answer all the time, and actually, no martial art that I have seen yet seems to be the answer all the time...one must always cross train a little to compete in MMA type situations.

[James Kovacich]

Oh, yes, there have been a few Kenpoists that pretty much embarrassed themselves in MMA, mostly because, it appears, they didn't crosstrain in ground fighting, which one really needs in MMA. Kenpo in and of itself isn't the answer all the time, and actually, no martial art that I have seen yet seems to be the answer all the time...one must always cross train a little to compete in MMA type situations.

You're right But ALL arts need to crosstrain to be more complete for self defense too. Today many schools have incorporated some form of grappling and other arts to "fix" their weaknesses and those arts that DO NOT follow suit will fall behind and possible been seen as weak.

[dbmasters]

Very true. Ultimately, for the everyday man on the street (or woman or child) having any fighting knowledge is better than none, and simply being in good shape as far as strength and cardio is a help, but too many people it seems try to find all their self defense answers in their single art of choice...and all the answers are not in any one style. That said, for many people there simple isn't enough time in a day to learn everything about everything...

[James Kovacich]

Yes, I trained for 3 1/2 years in a BJJ school with an instructor that was always telling his students "what to do" when they were rolling with me. One day I woke up (after he disrespected me on a personal level) and realized my ground game was good enough to make my stand up "rough." By rough I mean, grapplers don't do that well, not only do they do not that well, they pretty much don't have a chance if thats all they know AND my students get the best of both worlds.

If I pick on a system. Thats because I've been around it enough to know the weaknesses and I teach my students the weaknesses of every system I'ved been exposed to. Thats what sets me, mystudents and my system apart from the "purists" out there. There can claim lineage and high rank and all that but that won't finish a fight.

[Sever]

Jeff Newton, an EPAK student of Bob White, fought Sam Hogar a couple of months ago. He was unable to stop Hogar's takedowns, and was unable to escape and get back to his feet.He still nearly had Hogar with that armbar at the end of round one. He'd trained ground work a bit with Erik Paulson, but obviously not quite enough to go against someone with a lot of grappling experience like Hogar. He had some cool shorts though :)
Also, Chuck Liddell (UFC LHW champion) holds a high grade in kempo. I'm not sure how much of it he uses in the cage now

[James Kovacich]

He still nearly had Hogar with that armbar at the end of round one. He'd trained ground work a bit with Erik Paulson, but obviously not quite enough to go against someone with a lot of grappling experience like Hogar. He had some cool shorts though :)
Also, Chuck Liddell (UFC LHW champion) holds a high grade in kempo. I'm not sure how much of it he uses in the cage now
Actually Chuck Liddells line under John Hackelman was the lineage that I posted about on post #2.

Their Kempo is the only kempo system that is successful in MMA and they "take claim" to being the ones that "made the necesary changes" and do not want their Kempo to be confused with the other Ken/mpo systems.
http://www.knucklepit.com/mixed%20martial%20arts-john%20hackleman.htm

[dbmasters]

Yes, I trained for 3 1/2 years in a BJJ school with an instructor that was always telling his students "what to do" when they were rolling with me. One day I woke up (after he disrespected me on a personal level) and realized my ground game was good enough to make my stand up "rough." By rough I mean, grapplers don't do that well, not only do they do not that well, they pretty much don't have a chance if thats all they know AND my students get the best of both worlds.

If I pick on a system. Thats because I've been around it enough to know the weaknesses and I teach my students the weaknesses of every system I'ved been exposed to. Thats what sets me, mystudents and my system apart from the "purists" out there. There can claim lineage and high rank and all that but that won't finish a fight.

I think you'd get along with my trainer pretty well, he does much the same thing, the base of his Kenpo teaching is traditional Kenpo, but, he also teaches a lot of kickboxing and jiujitsu to suppliment the weaknesses of Kenpo (as he learned it anyway). He is an MMA fighter and feel the mods he has made to his Kenpo training is very good based on what other Kenpo training I have seen. Though there are now enough kenpo systems out there that I have in no way seen them all...

[James Kovacich]

You don't need to see them all. The Ken/mpo systems that are "related" have similar bases. Some may dispute that but the core is all you need to "understand" because that is their strenth. The individual techs that set them apart are not nearly as important to defend against versus understanding the "style" of the fighter and that is the key.

This holds true as long as they stay "pure" to their art.

[KenpoDavid]

He still nearly had Hogar with that armbar at the end of round one. He'd trained ground work a bit with Erik Paulson, but obviously not quite enough to go against someone with a lot of grappling experience like Hogar. He had some cool shorts though :)
Also, Chuck Liddell (UFC LHW champion) holds a high grade in kempo. I'm not sure how much of it he uses in the cage now

I met Chuck Liddell last year and got to ask him "how much Kempo is in what you do now?" and his answer was basically, it's still Kempo, he's traine dit for so long, there's no way to get away from it.

I hope Newton keeps training his takedown defenses and comes back to the UFC. Maybe he needs some of the coaching that Couture brought to Griffin, becasue he stuffed Ortiz many times on Saturday.

[James Kovacich]

I met Chuck Liddell last year and got to ask him "how much Kempo is in what you do now?" and his answer was basically, it's still Kempo, he's traine dit for so long, there's no way to get away from it.

I hope Newton keeps training his takedown defenses and comes back to the UFC. Maybe he needs some of the coaching that Couture brought to Griffin, becasue he stuffed Ortiz many times on Saturday.
Yes David, it is still Kempo but not the Kempo that you or most other Kempoists practice. Not even close.

Refer to post #2 for Chucks instructors "word" about his Kempo versus the other Kempos.

[Colin Linz]

Is it necessary to have good success in competition to be able to defend yourself adequately? Does MMA prepare you for real world fights? Personally I’ve seen very few real fights go to the ground. I understand the need for defending yourself from this tactic, I just think it is over emphasised in relation to self-defence. My experience over the years has given me confidence in my abilities to defend myself, but I have no doubt that in a MMA event I would be history. I just don’t have the skills based on the rule sets or the strategy to exploit the rule sets that I would need, or the aerobic conditioning required to compete. All my real world experience has taught me that real fights are anaerobic in nature and made up of violent bursts that come to an end one way or another within a short time frame. There are many martial artists that have experienced real violence and are recognised for their ability to deal with it, not all of them feel the need to engage in competition though.

[KenpoDavid]

Is it necessary to have good success in competition to be able to defend yourself adequately? Does MMA prepare you for real world fights? Personally I’ve seen very few real fights go to the ground. I understand the need for defending yourself from this tactic, I just think it is over emphasised in relation to self-defence. My experience over the years has given me confidence in my abilities to defend myself, but I have no doubt that in a MMA event I would be history. I just don’t have the skills based on the rule sets or the strategy to exploit the rule sets that I would need, or the aerobic conditioning required to compete. All my real world experience has taught me that real fights are anaerobic in nature and made up of violent bursts that come to an end one way or another within a short time frame. There are many martial artists that have experienced real violence and are recognised for their ability to deal with it, not all of them feel the need to engage in competition though.

I think you are exactly right :)

[James Kovacich]

Is it necessary to have good success in competition to be able to defend yourself adequately? Does MMA prepare you for real world fights? Personally I’ve seen very few real fights go to the ground. I understand the need for defending yourself from this tactic, I just think it is over emphasised in relation to self-defence. My experience over the years has given me confidence in my abilities to defend myself, but I have no doubt that in a MMA event I would be history. I just don’t have the skills based on the rule sets or the strategy to exploit the rule sets that I would need, or the aerobic conditioning required to compete. All my real world experience has taught me that real fights are anaerobic in nature and made up of violent bursts that come to an end one way or another within a short time frame. There are many martial artists that have experienced real violence and are recognised for their ability to deal with it, not all of them feel the need to engage in competition though.

Colin, I know your a respectful guy and I repect that. But the problem is that "self defending" and "complete fighter" are two very differant animals.

The whole point I try to make is 1) a thorough "understanding of groundfighting does not mean fighting on the ground in the street. It means we've achieved the skill to not let a grappler beat us. That is two very differant goals. But to do that, one needs to put in the time on the mat. One may even find that the enjoy grappling which makes are growth easier.

And 2) this "understanding is ignored quite a bit for the need to train in one system. And it is safe to say that no single style can combat all fighting styles. If we go way back in time. Our martial ancestors did in fact train in multiple systems until they found efficientcy for their day.

Now I would like to mention something in favor of Kajukenbo, the parent art to John Hackelmans Kempo. I started in Kaju, I know this for a fact. All Kajukenbo instructors will stress "creativity" as a part of their teaching and training. And that leaves it up to the Kajuists to "do" as they need.

Creativity is a good thing. Also it is not about self defense vs. sport training. It is about "truely" being able to combat any style fighter we are up against. That comes with self knowledge.

[dbmasters]

My experience tells me that not as many fights outside the cage go to the ground as the Gracie marketing machine would have you believe, but I have seen a good enough number of them go to the ground where it certainly makes it a worthy skill to have. I've seen enough bar fights and parking lot scuffles in my life to make a fair judgement.

Women, I think, more than men, have to know their way around on on the ground, more often than not, that is the submission tactic used by rapists and the like, women end up on their backs with a man on top, knowing a little (or a lot) of even the most basic ground tactics could help them overcome the brute strength differences between the sexes. Should that fail there is always the good ol' eye gouge...

[James Kovacich]

Yes, but in "defending" we as martial artists are expecting to be able to defend against anyone or style and without going after the knowledge to be able to do that. Many schools are "selling" a false "solution."

[dbmasters]

Yes, but in "defending" we as martial artists are expecting to be able to defend against anyone or style and without going after the knowledge to be able to do that. Many schools are "selling" a false "solution."
agreed.

[MaxG]

My experience tells me that not as many fights outside the cage go to the ground as the Gracie marketing machine would have you believe, but I have seen a good enough number of them go to the ground where it certainly makes it a worthy skill to have. I've seen enough bar fights and parking lot scuffles in my life to make a fair judgement.

You should watch the fights at psfights.com. A lot and I mean a lot of real fights go to the ground.


Women, I think, more than men, have to know their way around on on the ground, more often than not, that is the submission tactic used by rapists and the like, women end up on their backs with a man on top,

I agree that women need to learn ground arts more than men. However it's untrue that women get raped on their backs more often than not. Most rapes (I can't remember the % since I read the report years and years ago) actually have the woman prone on her stomach and the rapist grabbing her hair and holding her head down.

[Satori81]

Most rapes (I can't remember the % since I read the report years and years ago) actually have the woman prone on her stomach and the rapist grabbing her hair and holding her head down.

Source? Please don't say "Real Life Experience"... :p

[RussianKenpo05]

what many people here seem to be missing, not to be condescending or anything, but kenpo originally was a blend of what it is now and jujitsu and the like, and has only recently been watered down to straight striking. For example, with the Castro lineage, even in the first two katas there are approximately three or four techniques that have been watered down to strikes, but were originally a strike followed by a lock and takedown...(i know this as we were practicing them in class last night,lol).
all the best,
Ilya

[Colin Linz]

Colin, I know your a respectful guy and I repect that. But the problem is that "self defending" and "complete fighter" are two very differant animals.

The whole point I try to make is 1) a thorough "understanding of groundfighting does not mean fighting on the ground in the street. It means we've achieved the skill to not let a grappler beat us. That is two very differant goals. But to do that, one needs to put in the time on the mat. One may even find that the enjoy grappling which makes are growth easier.

And 2) this "understanding is ignored quite a bit for the need to train in one system. And it is safe to say that no single style can combat all fighting styles. If we go way back in time. Our martial ancestors did in fact train in multiple systems until they found efficientcy for their day.

Now I would like to mention something in favor of Kajukenbo, the parent art to John Hackelmans Kempo. I started in Kaju, I know this for a fact. All Kajukenbo instructors will stress "creativity" as a part of their teaching and training. And that leaves it up to the Kajuists to "do" as they need.

Creativity is a good thing. Also it is not about self defense vs. sport training. It is about "truely" being able to combat any style fighter we are up against. That comes with self knowledge.
As you all know, I have very little knowledge of American forms of kenpo/kempo. I do find it surprising that you would need to go outside of your art to learn how to deal with grappling attacks though. From A Shorinji Kempo viewpoint I don’t see this need, the entire Juho syllabus is designed for that very reason. While there are some attacking Juho techniques most are counters to grappling attacks and include techniques to allow you control of your body when attacked, escapes from grabs, apply locks, throws, chokes and arresting or pinning techniques. Being a Japanese art, the techniques are very much designed to work against grappling techniques like Judo or jujutsu. To give you an idea of its range, I have a set of three instructional books on Shorinji Kempo, one is all Goho (striking and blocking) the other two are all Juho and by no means the entire syllabus.

I will admit to enjoying groundwork as a form of exercise and interest though and have found that many of the principles behind our techniques work in this environment too. Even though we don’t have these techniques in our syllabus I’m still doing Shorinji Kempo, as they are built from my knowledge of the principles of Shorinji Kempo; it is all just part of the shu ha ri process of learning. I think MMA biggest benefit is not technical but methodology of training; the use of a resisting opponent is a very good tool, and has worked well in other arts like boxing or Judo. I just think it is a bit of a fashion statement within martial arts at the moment and that success in competition is not really a measurement of how well someone can defend themselves, or of a martial arts worth.

You mention creativity. I think this could align with the Japanese concept of Shu Ha Ri and is considered a natural part of your development when learning anything. It is certainly a natural part of your development in Shorinji Kempo.

[kempojosh]

the tactics that you use to defend yourself are only dirty if they were used on you first:)

[Colin Linz]

You should watch the fights at psfights.com. A lot and I mean a lot of real fights go to the ground.



I agree that women need to learn ground arts more than men. However it's untrue that women get raped on their backs more often than not. Most rapes (I can't remember the % since I read the report years and years ago) actually have the woman prone on her stomach and the rapist grabbing her hair and holding her head down.
This is second hand mind you. One of the other guys (my apologies I can’t remember who) here mentioned in a post that he was involved with law enforcement, and quoted FBI statistics that indicated most fights don’t go to the ground. Apart from my School yard days this rings true with my experience.

I know nothing about rape stats though. It would be reasonable to think that a woman may find some advantage in ground fighting in this scenario, but because of the size weight disadvantage I would think that she would be more advantaged in knowing how not to get in that situation.

[Colin Linz]

the tactics that you use to defend yourself are only dirty if they were used on you first:)
No such thing in self defence. Everything is fair.

[MaxG]

Source? Please don't say "Real Life Experience"... :p

Like I said I read the article years ago. But I suggest you go talk to your local women's rape crisis center.

This is second hand mind you. One of the other guys (my apologies I can’t remember who) here mentioned in a post that he was involved with law enforcement, and quoted FBI statistics that indicated most fights don’t go to the ground. Apart from my School yard days this rings true with my experience.

Don't get me wrong. I don't believe the Gracie hype either about 90% of all fights going to the ground. That statistic seems a little high. However that site shows a lot of real fights. And darned if a lot and I mean A LOT of fights went to the ground.


I know nothing about rape stats though. It would be reasonable to think that a woman may find some advantage in ground fighting in this scenario, but because of the size weight disadvantage I would think that she would be more advantaged in knowing how not to get in that situation.

No doubt. What's the saying? An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure? Or something like that.

Not getting in that situation is great but not training in something that has been proven to be essential seems a little ridiculous in this day and age of martial arts. A ground defense is essential. Period.

[dbmasters]

This is second hand mind you. One of the other guys (my apologies I can’t remember who) here mentioned in a post that he was involved with law enforcement, and quoted FBI statistics that indicated most fights don’t go to the ground. Apart from my School yard days this rings true with my experience.
Yeah, I remember that conversation actually, and I also train with police officers that say the exact opposite, so, well, like everything, it's a wash...

[Colin Linz]

Yeah, I remember that conversation actually, and I also train with police officers that say the exact opposite, so, well, like everything, it's a wash...
I think the thing that changes is the circumstances of the fight. If you are trying to control someone it might be that the fight will go to the ground. Most of our techniques end with a pin on the ground because we value control over damage. If on the other hand your only thoughts are self-defence the dynamics of the fight may change and you will be more inclined to incapacitate the attacker in the fastest and most brutal manner you can and get out of harms way. At this stage there are no thoughts of fairness or legalities, just survival.

[Colin Linz]

Not getting in that situation is great but not training in something that has been proven to be essential seems a little ridiculous in this day and age of martial arts. A ground defense is essential. Period.
True, but there are other methods of defending yourself from ground attacks than rolling around on the ground with them, some of these might be more useful when strength and body weight are factored into the equation. More important IMO is the skill to escape and get to my feet quickly rather than stay down and fight. I would much rather have the option to run away than risk all in a life or death situation.

[dbmasters]

Just out of curiousity, have you ever rolled with somebody and tried to get to your feet? Regardless of art or technique, you had better be damn fast! That's not an easy thing to do all the time, the much more possible technique is to incapacitate them while on the ground. If you wanna get to your feet during a grapple you gotta know some good ground work.

Of course, like anything it varies from sitch to sitch.

Most of our techniques end with a pin on the ground because we value control over damage.

Wow, that's not the Kenpo I am learning, my system is more of a "strike first, strike hard, strike often" type of thing with a sprinkling of "yeah, break a bone, what the hell" thrown on top...

[Colin Linz]

Just out of curiousity, have you ever rolled with somebody and tried to get to your feet? Regardless of art or technique, you had better be damn fast! That's not an easy thing to do all the time, the much more possible technique is to incapacitate them while on the ground. If you wanna get to your feet during a grapple you gotta know some good ground work.

Of course, like anything it varies from sitch to sitch.



Wow, that's not the Kenpo I am learning, my system is more of a "strike first, strike hard, strike often" type of thing with a sprinkling of "yeah, break a bone, what the hell" thrown on top...
I think the Kempo taught in America is vastly different to that of Japan. There does seem some similarities though. Our striking is relaxed and flowing, valuing targets that are naturally weak. In general our blocks do not meet force with force, but work on redirection and are of secondary importance to dodging out of the way. Our Juho is more along the lines of some of the old Koryu jujutsu styles, it is sometimes described as looking like Aikido but not as soft, not a good description but may give you some mental image.

Our ukemi practice not only incorporates falls, but rolls out from falls, how to land on your feet when thrown and methods of getting up quickly once you are down. While groundwork training could be of some value I’m fairly happy with the range that we cover now (most of our Juho syllabus is directed at fighting grapplers) and feel that it is effective enough in a free situation. To be honest I am still trying to learn our syllabus, it is quite large (I’ve been trying to learn it since 1988 LOL), once I understand Shorinji Kempo I might start trying to understand other arts, at the moment the time spent cross training would be taken from learning Shorinji Kempo, this would not be of benefit to me.

[dbmasters]

The brand of Kenpo I am learning, which is a modified version of Connors lineage, is also smooth and flowing, not the choppy, rigid styles of many traditional martial arts. But it's also powerful and firm aiming for eyes, throat and groin. My instructor has modified it to incorporate more grappling and striking from other systems as well for a more well rounded art.

Tonight I just got back from class, the late wednesday class is usually small, which is cool. I went toe to toe with a boxer/mma fighter hucking punches at me to help me practice my blocks, move into clinch and takedown. It was actually a very fun and interesting class. it's nice being able to take down somebody half my age :-)

[James Kovacich]

Tonight I just got back from class, the late wednesday class is usually small, which is cool. I went toe to toe with a boxer/mma fighter hucking punches at me to help me practice my blocks, move into clinch and takedown. It was actually a very fun and interesting class. it's nice being able to take down somebody half my age :-)

Thats what I'm talking about. That leads to "funtional defending" a fighter at his own game. As long two fighters do not "understand" each others styles. Then they both have a 50% chance at victory.

But when we can successfully defend against them we are able to literally stop their attack. And when we take them "out of their game and into our game" we have them at a disadvantage and our odds for victory greatly increase.

If we "understand" our attackers "game" we have a much better chance of being successful with our primary art. Last nights training took you in a good direction. It dosen't mean that you'll be a great boxer or grappler. But it does mean that (with continued training in that fashion) you will know how to at least "deal" with a boxer or grappler from "their perspctive" which is invaluable.

[kempojosh]

I think the thing that changes is the circumstances of the fight. If you are trying to control someone it might be that the fight will go to the ground. Most of our techniques end with a pin on the ground because we value control over damage. If on the other hand your only thoughts are self-defence the dynamics of the fight may change and you will be more inclined to incapacitate the attacker in the fastest and most brutal manner you can and get out of harms way. At this stage there are no thoughts of fairness or legalities, just survival.

damaging a person would be the best form of control. am i correct? ;)

[dbmasters]

Thats what I'm talking about. That leads to "funtional defending" a fighter at his own game. As long two fighters do not "understand" each others styles. Then they both have a 50% chance at victory.

Exactly, that's why some of our Kenpo classes have JuiJitsu students sticking around to roll, and why Kenpo students take Kickboxing and vice versa. If you really want to be successful, you gotta be able to read the opponent, not just know what you can do, but he is likely to do.

Besides, it keeps classes fresh and fun to change it up and get outside the box too.

[Colin Linz]

damaging a person would be the best form of control. am i correct? ;)
I wouldn’t like to damage someone; it would be much better to just control them. Unfortunately some of our techniques can be damaging when done badly or carelessly. The greater the personal risk, the greater the stress there is and the more chance that a lock, throw or pin will be done poorly. Our throws use a combination of joint locking and balance to work, if the balance isn’t taken properly there is excessive force on the joints. I am still working on heijo shin, when I have this I will be better at applying techniques is a safe manner.

[dbmasters]

I wouldn’t like to damage someone; it would be much better to just control them. Unfortunately some of our techniques can be damaging when done badly or carelessly.

Wow, there are some big differences between our systems, my system causes serious injury when the techniques are executed properly. if somebody is trying to hurt me, I fully intend to hurt them worse. This is self defense, the surest means of self defense, if escape is not an option, is to render them incapacitated. If myself or my family is being assaulted I will attempt to do my part to make DAMN SURE the assailant thinks twice about trying it again on anyone else.

If I do my techniques improperly I will only bruise a person or hyperextend a joint, if it's done properly they will have a broken joint, be temporarily blinded, have a crushed windpipe or be passed out.

[Colin Linz]

Because our system is Buddhist based in it’s philosophy we always desire that the opponent will learn from their actions and that minimum long-term damage will be done. Of course the more determined they are and the more danger you’re in will necessitate a insurance factor on your behalf. If you lock or pin them and you believe that you are going to be in danger on release then you will need to incapacitate them via choking, atemi strike or dislocation. From a technical side, once a lock or pin is applied it remains functional because of the pain and loss of movement, once the joint dislocates the opponent then has a greater range of movement and can escape of counter attack. Being able to judge the point of best force for pain but still not dislocating the joint is necessary for the effectiveness of the technique in self defence situations as well as being in line with our philosophy.

There are six characteristics of Shorinji Kempo.

Ken Zen Ichinyo – Body and mind are the same
Riki Ai Funi – Strength and love stand together
Shushu Koju – Defend first, attack after
Fusatsu Katsujin – Protect people without injury
Goju Ittai – Hard and soft work only together
Kumite Shutai – Pair work is fundamental

As you can see, Riki Ai Funi and Fusatsu Katsujin are directly related to our topic. Riki Ai Funi means that not only do we need to have the strength to act when needed but we also have the strength to forgive when appropriate, for example if the attacker has a genuine change of heart.

[dbmasters]

If somebody is attacking myself, my family, my friends, what-have-you, the absolute last thing on my mind is gonna be if the attacker is going to have a change of heart, or about forgiving him, and I would suspect, in the heat of the moment, most others would do the same.

Forgiveness and change of heart are worthy efforts to be made after the fact, during the melee I intend to strike hard and often to vital areas.

You do have a good point about the advantage of joint lock over dislocation, however, I would suspect that dislocation/break would also likely cause enough pain (including the preceeding lock) to allow a viable escape to be possible.

At least that how I see it in my minds eye.

[Colin Linz]

So far all the conflicts I’ve had have been control related I have yet to be in a life or death type of fight where the attacker is seriously trying to kill me. What you suggest is true, and I did state that earlier. The greater the personal risk, the greater the chance of inflicting serious injury because the stress will change the strategy and prime concerns of the conflict. I should point out though that not desiring to cause injury in no way makes our techniques less effective in self-defence, trust me when I say that our techniques are no less effective in stoping conflict than other arts. After WW2 when Doshin So had returned to Japan from China, he and his students fought a series of serious confrontation with the local Yakuza. The Yakuza usually used knives or swords, while the Shorinji Kempo kenshi were unarmed but used iron bars taped along their forearms for protection. Their success at driving the Yakuza from Tadotsu was the reason that the Governor of Tadotsu gave Doshin So the land to build the Temple on that is our headquarters.

Our Headquarters. Just for interest the middle building is the Dojo, it has three floors and can train 2000 people at a time. The tall skinny building is a museum, while the outer buildings are admin, accommodation, and a Shorinji Kempo high school and tertiary study centre.
http://fcsk.webcindario.com/hombu.jpg

[dbmasters]

I'd never suggest the techniques are less effective (or, not on purpose anyway), my criticism lies more with the mind than the body. I guess my thought, while never having been in a "life or death" stuggle either, is that I wouldn't be thinking "OK, he is only trying to hurt me, not kill me, so I'll do [insert technique]", my mind would first think "WTF, I'm gonna kick this guys ass".

Last night my Kenpo class was small (spring in Minnesota seems to make people have better things to do) I was slow sparring with a guy that has like 12 year of some sort of judo/jitsu type of art (I got him to tap out a couple time, very proud of myself :D ) working clinch, takedown and submission, and I'll tell ya, when that guy gets a joint lock on you, ya ain't going nowhere. With that, I will say I have no doubt your techniques are effective, just saying my mind wouldn't work in a way to think about, My first instrinct outside the gym would be to just kick ass hard until he's laying there moaning in pain...after all, the bastard attacked me.

[Colin Linz]

When in conflict the Japanese value something they call heijo shin, it translates as something along the lines of a calm mind and spirit. How this affects the dynamics of conflict is that you have no thought of winning, losing, life or death as these thoughts are distracting to the task at hand. Heijo shin allows you to react quicker and more decisively, giving you your best chance of coming out alive. I don’t think my approach would be greatly different to yours. Ideally the conflict should be over in the fastest most effective way possible. The only exception may be that we don’t teach killing techniques. The techniques are aimed at not causing serious permanent damage, but certainly have the capacity to do so. I won’t be trying not to hurt them, just that if I do the techniques well I shouldn’t cause serious permanent damage. The forgiving part comes after. Would you have the strength to forgive someone if they genuinely changed their nature and the way they treated people?

The aim of budo is to stop conflict, check out the Budo Kensho for a complete memorandum on the meaning of budo as agreed by a panel of high level martial artist from a range of Japanese martial arts. Stopping conflict goes much further than winning a fight; this is just its base level. One of the best ways to end conflict is to develop relationships, to do this sometimes we need to forget about the past and seek to make judgments based on current evidence. We also need to be able to empathise with people to gain some understanding of why they act the way they do. It is because of these higher ideals that Budo is thought highly of in Japan, more so than the fighting ability.

Shorinji Kempo was developed by Doshin So as a training method to develop future leaders. He felt Japan lacked an understanding of humanity. He wanted to create leaders that had the strength to act morally regardless of personal risk, to act with compassion, and to genuinely care about others in society. He had two favourite sayings “The person, the person! Everything depends on the quality of the person. This means race, religion, or culture play little in how leaders treat their people; what matters is the quality of the person. His other favourite saying was “Live half for yourself and half for others”.

To tie all this together, I guess I would say that while I understand what you are saying, and I’m prepared to admit that I too would probably think this way. My aim is to try and reach Doshin So’s ideals as they make much sense. I would like to be remembered for more than just being a good fighter.

[dbmasters]

I am glad the gym I train at doesn't dive into all that stuff. While I find it admirable, I also find it distracting. We train fighting and self defense, the kids classes dive more into the ethics, morals and life lessons stuff, but the adult classes don't. I have little to know desire to learn and codes or moral base from my training, I want to just learn to fight.

[Colin Linz]

And therein lies the personal value of a martial art. I had two new people at my class last night; they had come to watch the different martial arts that were on. There was Kickboxing, Aikido and my Shorinji Kempo class. Both of them asked me which art was the best. My answer to them was that they should try them all and decide this for themselves. Martial Arts are a very personal experience, what suits one person may not suit another, apart from the self defence we all have different other expectations of how the training will add value to our lives.

Just to clarify Shorinji Kempo, while there are issues of morality taught, the main emphasis is to provide a method to develop peoples understanding of human nature and behaviour. To be quite honest as effective as Shorinji Kempo is as a method of self-defence, I have had more practical benefit to my life over the years through the philosophy than the physical martial art aspect. The way the philosophy works is not to tell you how something should be, but to encourage you to think about aspects in a deeper way and develop your own understanding.

I have a couple of questions for you. Do you think methods of fighting should be taught without some insurance that those being taught would act honourably within the community? Do you really believe that the training you are doing does not teach some moral ethics or attitudes? They may not be defined in class, but I bet there is an identifying culture that sets your training group apart from others, this will be based on your instructor’s view of life.

I have dragged us of topic a bit and apologise. The discussion is of interest to me, and I thank you for allowing me to understand your personal training goals.

[dbmasters]

With the kids classes we are very sure to make sure each child knows when to use and not to use the skills they are learning, it's covered often and the speech is given every time a new student starts class for the first time and added in many times aside from that.

With the adults it depends very much on the class, most of the classes besides Kenpo are arts for the octagon. When new people come in that give off that vibe that they want to learn these skills for bad reasons, well, lets just say their first couple classes weed them out more often than not.

We really don't teach a moral lesson of when to use the skills to adults, but we do keep close watch on people that want to train. Our gym is, on the whole, not violent by nature, unless in the ring. I like to run on the assumption that adults have a decent moral base already in life, we spend more of that kind of energy with the kids who are still forming such things.

I hope that makes sense.

[bdocili]

what many people here seem to be missing, not to be condescending or anything, but kenpo originally was a blend of what it is now and jujitsu and the like, and has only recently been watered down to straight striking. For example, with the Castro lineage, even in the first two katas there are approximately three or four techniques that have been watered down to strikes, but were originally a strike followed by a lock and takedown...(i know this as we were practicing them in class last night,lol).
all the best,
Ilya

What forms are you talking about that had locks and takedowns? Mountain Meets River has the Fast Throw built into it which is a takedown. I am trying to think of what you are talking about with a strike followed by a lock?

By the way, I am a black belt from the Castro lineage (Senior Professor Genaro Jose was my teacher) so I know all of the forms very well. I am just not sure what you are referring to.

[Gufbal1981]

I was just rewatching UFC 4 last night to see Keith Hackney's fights. He was a 2nd degree black in White Tiger Kenpo at that time. He did rather well and I had forgotten how well he did with it. He did some interesting ground and pound on Joe Son (repeated groin strikes) that won his first match and his second match-up with Royce Gracie was also not bad. He definately worked some ground work and stayed on his feet for a while. Just thought I'd mention it.

[shaolinmonkmark]

I guess now Keith is getting ready for his 5th or 6th, and word going around is that just like Jeff speakman, he is incorporating more ground work into his personal style.
As far as Kempo in MMA, i think for this thread, i can say it is good to be well rounded, and practice both at the same time.
Hey, if you got a fellow student at your school who is close in rank, and he wants to work ground with you, hey, practice it, it can only help you out and it gives insurance that you have some capabilities to get you out of any bad predicaments.
My school works both, and yes, we still work forms and weapons and "anything goes sparring" ( it goes to ground then go with it, but with control.)

Anyways, click on or copy and paste this link cause like i said, he is really into helping kempo evolve.
http://www.hackneyscombat.com/fighters.html

[Kenpo_Master]

It takes a skill fighter to know how to controle his art. Any thug could easily beat a aponant to death. Where a skilled fighter knows how to disable a attacker with out. Cause for serious injury to either fighter.

Sorry for my horrible grammar and spelling.

[Kenpo_Iz_Active]

In many traditional MA's people often use the "my art is too deadly for the cage" line to justify their never fighting in competitions outside their Dojo or outside of point sparring. While I don't formally fight I do train with a lot of guys that do fight MMA so I am put into that situation a lot and have found that some of my Kenpo is surprisingly effective int he situations, in particular the blocks and parries of puches diverting attacks which many MMA guys never deal with, as they are more accustomed to bobbing and weaving and such.

Does anyone here ever compete MMA and find their Kenpo training effective? Just curious if anyone has the same findings I have found...

well, Kenpo is kinda like MMA, since it is mixed with soo many arts. other than the katas, nothing about it seems super fancy, yet it's effective, and apparently, effective even in the ring. Take that MMA! LOLz

[shaolinmonkmark]

What i have found out, based off my own experiences, is that Alot of kempo schools do not go over grappling!
It's just all stand up.
I believe we should all be well rounded just in case.
I think of it like Insurance: It's their if ya need to use it.
Cheers!

[Kenpo_Iz_Active]

What i have found out, based off my own experiences, is that Alot of kempo schools do not go over grappling!
It's just all stand up.
I believe we should all be well rounded just in case.
I think of it like Insurance: It's their if ya need to use it.
Cheers!

yea, true. why didn't ed parker take it into account? he mixed just about every art, y not judo or BJJ, or sumthin'?

[fire cobra]

Maybe Ed Parker realised that the average street thug probably isnt a bjj/judo or wrestling expert,more like someone that wants to wack(read english for hit/punch etc) you quick and steal your wallet,
or sometimes just wack you in the head for the sake of it!,not go rolling all over the floor and risk getting caught or hurt.
Personally i love grappling and think the attributes it develops can benifit any martial artist,
also its good fun if done correctly,however i dont buy into the 95% of street fights go to the ground deal.
Today i taught one of my friends who is a policeman and he said exactly the same thing,
in his experience hardly any of his inncidents have gone to the ground in 3 years on the force,also the last place you want to be is on the ground (either as the attacker or the attacked) in a toilet of a british pub!,
so perhaps Mr Parker realised this and hence the lack of groundwork in his Kenpo :)

[KenpoDavid]

Parker had black belts in judo (or was it jujutsu... Okazaki?) and was known to train with Gene Lebell. So he probably did know some ground fighting :) and standing grappling for sure.

However, depending on the teacher, the issue is addressed. Kenpo in general is more concerned with preventing the takedown as opposed to winning once down there; however (again depending on the teacher!) the ground is not ignored. kenpo groundwork (in my experience) has a strategy of survival and extraction (back to standing) rather than submission, so the scope is not as broad as it is in an art whose strategy is to win off the feet.

[K3MP0]

What's cage fighting?

[KempoFist]

What's cage fighting?

This...
http://ga2so.com/images/powerman_cover.jpg

[KempoFist]

And this...
http://www.emunova.net/img/dossiers/mortalkombat/cage-fatality3.png
http://tabmok99.mortalkombatonline.com/mkvssf04.jpg

[callsignfuzzy]

As much as those made me chuckle, the useful info is that "cage fighting" is another term for Mixed Martial Arts (MMA), AKA "ultimate fighting". Surprised you've never heard that expression before.

[KempoFist]

As much as those made me chuckle, the useful info is that "cage fighting" is another term for Mixed Martial Arts (MMA), AKA "ultimate fighting". Surprised you've never heard that expression before.

You and your considerate informative attitude....you're like me a year or so ago. Bah....

[callsignfuzzy]

You and your considerate informative attitude....you're like me a year or so ago. Bah....

Funny, I keep thinking how much you're like I was four years ago.

:D

[bbygirl]

how bad does cage fighting get ????

[callsignfuzzy]

What do you mean by "bad"? The techniques allowable are typically punches, kicks, knees and sometimes elbows on the feet, usually some "ground and pound" (strikes on the ground), most takedowns, sweeps and throws, locks against the major joints, and some strangulation techniques. Typical fouls include bitting, gouging, hair pulling, striking the groin, attacks to "small joints" such as the fingers and toes, headbutts, spitting on an opponent, and "spiking" someone on the top of their head. Most fights these days have manditory protective gear: cup, mouthguard, and small, fingerless gloves. Typical injuries are cuts, bruises, broken bones in the face & hands, and concussions, which typically occur when someone's been knocked out. There are also the occasional freak accidents of knees being hyper-extended, shoulders being dislocated, and severe rib injuries, usually as the result of a slam. Despite all of this, no one's ever died in a sanctioned MMA event, and rarely do you have a single career-ending injury. It's actually safer on the brain than boxing.

[KempoFist]

how bad does cage fighting get ????

You need to ask? I thought the pics I posted spoke for themselves...
http://www.emunova.net/img/dossiers/mortalkombat/cage-fatality3.png

*shudders*

[Kenpo_Iz_Active]

however i dont buy into the 95% of street fights go to the ground deal.
Today i taught one of my friends who is a policeman and he said exactly the same thing,
in his experience hardly any of his inncidents have gone to the ground in 3 years on the force,also the last place you want to be is on the ground (either as the attacker or the attacked) in a toilet of a british pub!,
so perhaps Mr Parker realised this and hence the lack of groundwork in his Kenpo :)

pretty interesting stuff, especially coming from a grappler (?).
i also didn't know Ed Parker held a belt in judo.

[Kenpo_Iz_Active]

As much as those made me chuckle, the useful info is that "cage fighting" is another term for Mixed Martial Arts (MMA), AKA "ultimate fighting". Surprised you've never heard that expression before.

don't forget Pride and K-1.

[KempoFist]

pretty interesting stuff, especially coming from a grappler (?).
i also didn't know Ed Parker held a belt in judo.

*shrugs* I got 7 cop friends who say different. I also have seen many a bar fight hit the ground. I prefer to be prepared in all ranges, than just allow ignorance in one and just assume I'll get lucky and it won't go there.

[Kenpo_Iz_Active]

good point, good point.

[Rebel Wado]

Here's one for you KempoFist. Long time ago, but not so long ago that UFC wasn't around, one explanation for the lack of ground fighting training in Kenpo was this:

Almost all fights go to the ground, but in "kenpo" we hurt them so badly that by the time the fight gets to the ground, the opponent is at a big disadvantage or cannot continue to fight.

This was followed by various techniques, probably all of which you have seen in one form or another, including knees to the head, the dropping elbows to the spine, brain stem, or other vital area... the hammer fists to the head, eye goughes, etc. Whatever the flavor of the day was.

Now it is true that you can knock out someone, hurt them badly, or control them so that the fight effectively ends before or when it hits the ground, rather than continue on from there. There are verifiable cases in competition and in the real world where someone has been knocked out by a knee to the face when they tried to shoot in.

What I have noticed, and this is where I ask your opinion on this KempoFist, is that it seemed a lot of time was actually spent in learning how to hurt someone that is trying to take you down, but there was very little to no time actually working on take down defense. The ones with Judo, wrestling, or other applicable backgrounds in grappling and such had decent if not great takedown defense... then the idea of hurting the opponent so much that they can't continue to fight when it goes to the ground seems to make a lot more sense. Does this make sense to you?

[KempoFist]

Here's one for you KempoFist. Long time ago, but not so long ago that UFC wasn't around, one explanation for the lack of ground fighting training in Kenpo was this:

"Almost all fights go to the ground, but in "kenpo" we hurt them so badly that by the time the fight gets to the ground, the opponent is at a big disadvantage or cannot continue to fight."

A noteworthy goal. One that is much easier said than done.

This was followed by various techniques, probably all of which you have seen in one form or another, including knees to the head, the dropping elbows to the spine, brain stem, or other vital area... the hammer fists to the head, eye goughes, etc. Whatever the flavor of the day was.

Now it is true that you can knock out someone, hurt them badly, or control them so that the fight effectively ends before or when it hits the ground, rather than continue on from there. There are verifiable cases in competition and in the real world where someone has been knocked out by a knee to the face when they tried to shoot in.

What I have noticed, and this is where I ask your opinion on this KempoFist, is that it seemed a lot of time was actually spent in learning how to hurt someone that is trying to take you down, but there was very little to no time actually working on take down defense. The ones with Judo, wrestling, or other applicable backgrounds in grappling and such had decent if not great takedown defense... then the idea of hurting the opponent so much that they can't continue to fight when it goes to the ground seems to make a lot more sense. Does this make sense to you?

Interesting goal as I stated above, and one that is accomplished more today than ever IMO. Back under Pride rules, we had numerous fights being ended with knees to the head to turtled and side mounted opponents. But the reality of the necessity of grappling takedown defense (not try to hit him as hard as you can before you get slammed onto the ground) has taken grip, hence why you see guys scooping for underhooks when someone tries to clinch rather than trying to elbow him in the face.

Personally, my gameplan is too unrefined and I'm simply not good enough to give you a knowledgeable opinion on how effective each mentality is against each other, but one thing I do know is that without a solid grasp of the fundamentals that go into the clinch, and the subsequent ground game, you are leaving yourself open to drift up ***** creek.

[Rebel Wado]

...Interesting goal as I stated above, and one that is accomplished more today than ever IMO. Back under Pride rules, we had numerous fights being ended with knees to the head to turtled and side mounted opponents. But the reality of the necessity of grappling takedown defense (not try to hit him as hard as you can before you get slammed onto the ground) has taken grip, hence why you see guys scooping for underhooks when someone tries to clinch rather than trying to elbow him in the face...

Good post KempoFist.

I did not have any particular direction I wanted to go with my questions, but something did spring to my mind reading your post.

We have certainly broken down fighting to almost a science with game plans and strategies. Now, how much of a game plan deals with one's personal abilities?

Grandmaster Ed Parker was said to be a very agile person. Very quick and with training on top of that, it would have been very difficult to take him down. We could say he had good take down defense, but it is more than skill it was natural ability too.

So KempoFist, I present another thing asking your opinion. How do you deal with "freaks of nature" (respectively using the term). BJJ, Boxing, Karate, MMA, Judo, Kenpo, etc. all had/has some individuals that were way beyond just skill in their abilities. If it was track and field, I could say that not everyone can run under a 4 minute mile, right?

Consider this, Mr. Parker was very agile, many that followed in his footsteps were no way like that. Some very big and with knee problems, unable to move that quickly with the legs. They had to create their own versions of Kenpo that worked for them.

Just some thoughts.

[Kenpo_Iz_Active]

yea, true. i.e., my form of Kenpo emphasizes low kicks to the knee, highest the groin. let's face it, high kicks aren't as effective becuase the can be easily dodged or worse, manipulated. BTW, i have found knee and elbow srtikes very effective becuase they are strong bones, and also because they are useful in short-range fighting. (in other words, you don't have to waste your time extending your arm to punch.)

[fire cobra]

*shrugs* I got 7 cop friends who say different. I also have seen many a bar fight hit the ground. I prefer to be prepared in all ranges, than just allow ignorance in one and just assume I'll get lucky and it won't go there.

I agree Kenpo Fist that we should try to be prepared in all ranges,but by choice in a bar fight i would not choose to go to the ground,and if i went down would fight like hell to get back up,rather than attempt arm bar to triangle to oma plata combinations(gret for competition).

Does anybody here practice against,multiple armed atackers?,weapons such as ,pool ques,chairs,stilleto heels?ashtrays? or to use such type of items?,the use of the enviroment we are in is as much of a study for us as is using our natural body weapons imho,after all banging a head on the floor,wall,bar,or table has more potential power than any punch/kick etc we can develop :)

[Rebel Wado]

I agree Kenpo Fist that we should try to be prepared in all ranges,but by choice in a bar fight i would not choose to go to the ground,and if i went down would fight like hell to get back up,rather than attempt arm bar to triangle to oma plata combinations(gret for competition).

To expand a bit on the above. IME, the better martial artists tend to choose the best courses of action based on opportunity and situation. A point to make about this is that they also choose what not to do.

For instance, oma plata is a great technique, however, not many would try to use it on an opponent that is much bigger and stronger than they are. The difference is that inexperience often leads to trying things and doing things that probably should not be done, such as trying to work an oma plata on someone two hundred pounds heavier and stronger. Experience can make a lot of difference in not just what is done, but also what is not done.

Does anybody here practice against,multiple armed atackers?,weapons such as ,pool ques,chairs,stilleto heels?ashtrays? or to use such type of items?,the use of the enviroment we are in is as much of a study for us as is using our natural body weapons imho,after all banging a head on the floor,wall,bar,or table has more potential power than any punch/kick etc we can develop :)

Sounds like Aikido to me :love:

[fire cobra]

Aikido! lol :)

[KMA]

I have seen a Kenpoist use his Kenpo techniques in a full contact ring fight. This was an amateur match with the Ultimate Combat Experience.

He used a variation of Charging the Ram (That's what Parker called it.)
It was the only move he used, because he knocked the guy out in the 1st round, about 5 seconds into the match. While I do think this shows Kenpo can be effective in a sport MMA match. I also think it’s the fighter that makes the art effective not the style.

The problem with most of Kenpo is that it's not very sport friendly. There are a lot of elbows, eye gouges, groin kicks, and friction brakes.

The reality is every fight is different. The Kenpo techniques are motions nothing more. It’s taught in a set position to show how this move could be used. That doesn’t mean it will work exactly that way with a real opponent. I also agree that the theory of most street fights going to the ground is bunch of B.S. I have never seen a real street fight go to the ground.

[yannick35]

In many traditional MA's people often use the "my art is too deadly for the cage" line to justify their never fighting in competitions outside their Dojo or outside of point sparring. While I don't formally fight I do train with a lot of guys that do fight MMA so I am put into that situation a lot and have found that some of my Kenpo is surprisingly effective int he situations, in particular the blocks and parries of puches diverting attacks which many MMA guys never deal with, as they are more accustomed to bobbing and weaving and such.

Does anyone here ever compete MMA and find their Kenpo training effective? Just curious if anyone has the same findings I have found...

Competing is a personal choice and many times its ego oriented, i competed in TKD many years i didnt want to but the school i went to where my friends and they always had a good way to put pressure on me if i didnt compete, i was quit good in sparring and it was full contact.

In competition no one wants to look bad and it can get ugly real quick, can the respect and the ego.

Or sometimes they mix weight division togheter so a much bigger guy will hit you a lot harder.

I respect people that dont compete and want to keep it in the dojo.

After all full contact is not for everyone.

[Steve Banke]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2E53xy0OISY

this is a 2 month old fighter at Powell's Way of Kenpo in his 1st MMA fight.

[Steve Banke]

Competing is a personal choice and many times its ego oriented, i competed in TKD many years i didnt want to but the school i went to where my friends and they always had a good way to put pressure on me if i didnt compete, i was quit good in sparring and it was full contact.

In competition no one wants to look bad and it can get ugly real quick, can the respect and the ego.

Or sometimes they mix weight division togheter so a much bigger guy will hit you a lot harder.

I respect people that dont compete and want to keep it in the dojo.

After all full contact is not for everyone.


I respect that. At the school I go to, I am the youngest and the smallest, however I never give in the the intimidation of the other warriors presented there. ALL of them respect that and we all understand, fighting sin't always fair, therefor competition isn't for everyone. With that said, never and I mean NEVER! Doubt yourself. When you do, thats when that last little jab knocks you out.