Should martial art schools accept disabled people

[kungfu_charlie]

It may have already been mentioned, but I would like to get it of my chest as i have recenly been at the receiving end of such an issue.

Martial art teachers are required to have insurance against injury to a student or more than one student etc. and to be, or have on hand a trained certified first-aid person.

If a teacher is approached by a disabled person regardless of the disability I would imagine the alarm bells would ring for that teacher “alert my insurance might not pay out”. Does the insurance policy cover a disabled person?

Does the teacher look at how his/her martial is performed and come to the conclusion that’s its not possible?

In this growing world of nasty bullies and hooligans who think nothing of beating up a person regardless of age in a wheelchair, or have one leg, or one arm, or are blind or deaf, sorry if I’ve missed anyone one out, should these people be helped in defending themselves in such situations, if not many teachers are prepared to teach these people how are they ever to walk amongst the considered normal people and feel confident and safe.

Okay the imperfect of us will not be able to do the technique as well as a normal student, but I am sure armed with a few tricks or modified technique could surly help.

I would love to hear the thoughts from genuine people on the subject and please try to remember the disabled have feelings they are just packaged a little differently.

[Matthew Barnes]

It may have already been mentioned, but I would like to get it of my chest as i have recenly been at the receiving end of such an issue.

Martial art teachers are required to have insurance against injury to a student or more than one student etc. and to be, or have on hand a trained certified first-aid person.

If a teacher is approached by a disabled person regardless of the disability I would imagine the alarm bells would ring for that teacher “alert my insurance might not pay out”. Does the insurance policy cover a disabled person?

Does the teacher look at how his/her martial is performed and come to the conclusion that’s its not possible?

In this growing world of nasty bullies and hooligans who think nothing of beating up a person regardless of age in a wheelchair, or have one leg, or one arm, or are blind or deaf, sorry if I’ve missed anyone one out, should these people be helped in defending themselves in such situations, if not many teachers are prepared to teach these people how are they ever to walk amongst the considered normal people and feel confident and safe.

Okay the imperfect of us will not be able to do the technique as well as a normal student, but I am sure armed with a few tricks or modified technique could surly help.

I would love to hear the thoughts from genuine people on the subject and please try to remember the disabled have feelings they are just packaged a little differently.

I would think that the disabled martial artist would be the one who might benefit most.

In the US, an insurance company would be legally on shaky to discriminate against a student with a disability. Insurance may be an excuse, but it's not a reason.

Matt

[josoman]

I agree, if a disabled person is denied for so called insurance reasons, it's an excuse.

I used to compete, in weightlifting (Bench press) against, a, supposedly disabled man and I don't feel bad saying that he would kick by rear sometimes.
I said "supposedly disabled" because of the fact, that he kicked my butt, and I was no slouch.
I have the upmost respect for him and his abilities, as I would for any disabled martial artist.

Not to play with anything that kungfu_charlie said, but they are still martial artists, just packaged a little differently. I mean no disrespect at all Kungfu_charlie.

josoman

[myki]

What a good question!
I agree with the two previous posters, I would not want to be the insurance company who denies a company (dojo) because a student happens to be disabled.

I think it would be to an instructor's credit to adapt a program to suit a person with a disability! At my son's TKD school, there are a few kids who have a mental disabilty of sorts. The inclusive attitude of the Master shows on the smiles of the kids. It's brilliant!

Cheers!

[OneArmedBandit]

I don't think they shouldn't accept the disabled student solely because he/she is disabled, but there are circumstances where a student simply would be unable to do the art in question, eg, a paraplegic wanting to learn TKD, so in those circumstances I believe it would be acceptable for the school not to accept the student, but they should explain to them why they couldn't do it, rather than just say "Your disabled, you can't join, we might get sued if you get hurt"

ps, I am disabled myself, since birth I have been missing my left arm, but I bet it'll be in the last place I look. :p

[Kwajman]

My old school stateside had (that I know of) one blind boy, one autistic boy, a girl with CP, and one other girl with some developmental issues.....

[myki]

I don't think they shouldn't accept the disabled student solely because he/she is disabled, but there are circumstances where a student simply would be unable to do the art in question, eg, a paraplegic wanting to learn TKD, so in those circumstances I believe it would be acceptable for the school not to accept the student, but they should explain to them why they couldn't do it, rather than just say "Your disabled, you can't join, we might get sued if you get hurt"
Totally agree! It should be down to the school's Master whether to accept a student on any grounds.
ps, I am disabled myself, since birth I have been missing my left arm, but I bet it'll be in the last place I look.
LMAO! Great line! :D
Cheers!

[adouglasmhor]

Totally agree! It should be down to the school's Master whether to accept a student on any grounds.


So if they say "no niggers" "no kykes" Tht's cool too?

Maybe if he can't work out how to apply it to someone with different physical needs than himself he is not a "Master".

[Songi]

So if they say "no niggers" "no kykes" Tht's cool too?
.


mhmm if a place was to actually say that, its not a place i'd want to go for training, no matter how good it might be.

[kungfu_charlie]

Some great thoughts on the discussion, and pleasing to here so many positive thoughts, I would also agree if it is physically impossible to learn even the simplest of defence and attack there would be no point in learning. OneArmBandit I am missing my right hand, so we’ve got no chance of shaking hands LOL it would seem you pinched my childhood nick name, only the people calling me it were called “black eye idiots” afterwards I also am against any kind of racism I never thought to include it in the subject, I think once you are labelled into a particular group or category it draws your attention to others that have been stick with such labels.

[OneArmedBandit]

OneArmBandit I am missing my right hand, so we’ve got no chance of shaking hands LOL

Bwahahaha. :D

Hmm, a high five instead perhaps? :p

it would seem you pinched my childhood nick name.

It was also a nickname of mine for a while, but it kinda stuck and I use it as most of my online monikers.

So if they say "no niggers" "no kykes" Tht's cool too?

No, that's not acceptable, not just in MA schools but in general.

[Joshua Powell]

Something that I have said all my life, to all my different Dr's teachers and like. (I was born with Cerebral Palsy by the way) "Don't tell me I can't do something, unless I try first". And they listen. I think all disabled people should get all the chances that a normal, able'd bodied person would. Were people like everybody else;)

[kungfu_charlie]

Totally agree Joshua, I have a tendency to growl at anybody who tries to do something for me, in a nice way, the harder we try the more we achieve

[NaughtyKnight]

Of course they should accept disabled people.

[Davey Bones]

Just to play devil's advocate...(we have a bb in a wheelchair at my school, so this is a moot point for us, but still)....

insurance issues aside, I don't think every instructor out there is capable of training someone with a disability. It takes a lot of patience to deal with the more seriously emotionally ill, and for the physically disabled, the style may have to be turned on its head. Frankly, I have more respect for the guy who says "I have no idea what to do with you, perhaps you should find an instructor who does" than I would for the vilage idiot who throws a curriculum together to make a buck or two.

[kungfu_charlie]

I have more respect for the guy who says "I have no idea what to do with you, perhaps you should find an instructor who does" than I would for the vilage idiot who throws a curriculum together to make a buck or two.

Well put, I once approached a fencing teacher as I would have loved to learn to sword fence “swash buckle and all that” the teacher refused point blank to teach me, but as I look back on that day, being older and able to see though the teachers eyes, the missing hand was not the point, most fencers are right handed, and if he has no left handed students who am I going to fence with.

[Davey Bones]

If a teacher is approached by a disabled person regardless of the disability I would imagine the alarm bells would ring for that teacher “alert my insurance might not pay out”. Does the insurance policy cover a disabled person?


In the US, such discrimination would most likely violate the Americans With Disabilities Act.

The ADA is found at Chapter 42 of the United States Code 12,101, et seq. Sections 12,301 et seq deal with "public accommodations". It specifically notes that "(L) a gymnasium, health spa, bowling alley, golf course, or other place of exercise or recreation." is covered under the Act, section 301(7) Public accommodation: "The following private entities are considered public accommodations for purposes of this title, if the operations of such entities affect commerce". It is easily argued that a martial arts club is a place of "exercise or recreation". My guess would be that, at best, an insurance company *might* be able to ask for additional funds to cover disabled students, but the language of the ADA seems to preclude that.

The text of the Act (very long!):
http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/ada/pubs/ada.txt

Damn, I love my law degree when I can give advice and help people. :D

[Joshua Powell]

Just to play devil's advocate...(we have a bb in a wheelchair at my school, so this is a moot point for us, but still)....

insurance issues aside, I don't think every instructor out there is capable of training someone with a disability. It takes a lot of patience to deal with the more seriously emotionally ill, and for the physically disabled, the style may have to be turned on its head. Frankly, I have more respect for the guy who says "I have no idea what to do with you, perhaps you should find an instructor who does" than I would for the vilage idiot who throws a curriculum together to make a buck or two.

I will agree with you on part of your point, but I think, like I said before that the instructor should see what the disabled student can do before he turns him down, or takes him as his student. It's said you can't judge a book by it's cover. Well you can't judge a person by just his physical, or mental capabilities.

[NaughtyKnight]

Anyone watching The Ultimate Fighter Series 3? There is a deaf fighter, and he is easily the best.

[KungFuGrrrl]

Anyone watching The Ultimate Fighter Series 3? There is a deaf fighter, and he is easily the best.
when is it?

[NaughtyKnight]

Its on thursdays in America I think.

[Wolf]

Yep, Thursdays at 10 p.m. eastern on SpikeTV

[OneArmedBandit]

Anyone watching The Ultimate Fighter Series 3? There is a deaf fighter, and he is easily the best.

Well to be honest, I don't see how being deaf would hinder you that much, maybe you wouldn't be as balanced as other people, but apart from that I can't really see any problem.

[NaughtyKnight]

He couldnt hear his corner.
He couldnt get taught without an interpretor
He would have bad balance
wouldnt be able to hear his opponent moving etc

[kungfu_charlie]

He couldnt hear his corner.
He couldnt get taught without an interpretor
He would have bad balance
wouldnt be able to hear his opponent moving etc
Another way to look at it would be that his eyesight would be more acute i.e. sharper

So he would not need to hear the bell, however he would respond to the movement of the opponent and keep his eye on his opponent.

I would agree on the second point he may have needed help to get the moves correct via a translator

Please do correct me if am talking rubbish but I thought that the bones in your inner controlled your balance, that and your big toe.

And the last point is you never take your eye of your opponent.

[OneArmedBandit]

Yeah, pretty much the longwinded version of what I was trying to get at.

Anyway, my point was that apart from the possible balance issue, the fact that he is deaf wouldn't really affect his fighting

[Jang Bong]

Our club had an interesting day on Satuday, as our instructor had been invited to give a demonstration / seminar at a school that specialises in children with Cerebral Palsy.

We demonstrated all our different skills (Tang Soo Do forms & sparring, weapons, pad work, a bit of BJJ and Tai Chi), and then split into 5 areas to allow access to pad punching / kicking, floor 'rolling' (forward roll, side roll, etc), swinging of escrima sticks, some slow Tai Chi style moves, and me off to one side with a half-dozen foam nunchaku :eek: :D

In the introduction and talk section, our instructor said that everyone could gain positive benefits from martial arts - you may not be able to learn an art in its totallity (that may be true for any of us), and he would never think of 'watering down' an art, but he does believe in adapting techniques to make the most of what people CAN do.

With some simple spinning of the nunchaku, and a variety of 'blocks', I had my groups (children AND their parents) moving. One young lad who kept accidently putting a chain lock on the arm of his wheelchair could have been embarrassed, but I got a laugh out of him by having his Father swing a punch at me and blocking & putting a chain wristlock on him :D

Great dialogue is needed with the teachers who work with these kids every day - but if the aim of the day was to catch their interest, then it was successful.

[myki]

So if they say "no niggers" "no kykes" Tht's cool too?

Maybe if he can't work out how to apply it to someone with different physical needs than himself he is not a "Master".
:rolleyes: OOoookay!

[Bil Gee]

In the US, such discrimination would most likely violate the Americans With Disabilities Act.

The ADA is found at Chapter 42 of the United States Code 12,101, et seq. Sections 12,301 et seq deal with "public accommodations". It specifically notes that "(L) a gymnasium, health spa, bowling alley, golf course, or other place of exercise or recreation." is covered under the Act, section 301(7) Public accommodation: "The following private entities are considered public accommodations for purposes of this title, if the operations of such entities affect commerce". It is easily argued that a martial arts club is a place of "exercise or recreation". My guess would be that, at best, an insurance company *might* be able to ask for additional funds to cover disabled students, but the language of the ADA seems to preclude that.

The text of the Act (very long!):
http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/ada/pubs/ada.txt

Damn, I love my law degree when I can give advice and help people. :D

It's pretty much the same story in the UK. The disability discrimination act has been phased in over the last few years, the final part kicking in last October. It's basically illegal for anyone providing a public service to discriminate against people on the grounds of their disability. It covers mental as well as physical disabilities. A few test cases have gone through the courts in the UK, US and Australia and the indication is that the burden of proof is on the service provide to come up with a good reason for their service being inaccessible. The Sydney Olympic Committee and a few multinationals have already been successfully sued for having inaccessible web sites.

I think there would be legitimate grounds for refusing training to someone on the grounds of their disability whether that would be for clear safety reasons only or would also include the "I've got no idea how to train this person" argument isn't very clear yet. I guess there will have to be a few more test cases.

[Davey Bones]

I suspect that's correct, Bil. I just hope it's not the ethical businessman who gets hit with the lawsuit!

Anyway, does anyone know of any major problems dealing with this issue in MA? I have trained at two schools where handicapped students were members, and it didn't seem to present a real problem.

[KungFuGrrrl]

It's pretty much the same story in the UK. The disability discrimination act has been phased in over the last few years, the final part kicking in last October. It's basically illegal for anyone providing a public service to discriminate against people on the grounds of their disability.

I think there would be legitimate grounds for refusing training to someone on the grounds of their disability whether that would be for clear safety reasons only or would also include the "I've got no idea how to train this person" argument isn't very clear yet. I guess there will have to be a few more test cases.

As you may know I work with survivors of domestic violence (women and children)........ who have a myriad of disabilitites ranging from physical to emotional. (the emoitional disabilities ar the most difficult to deal with as you have PTST, post traumatic stress syndrome where one may become violent.......)

I have a system in place (always tweaking it) I understand mine is not a *regular club* but had to put in my 2 cents!

I have two phases..... phase one: first they are referred to me.. I do an intake (talk and questions.... as do one of my advisory board members, you can really et a good feel for someone by talking with them)....phase one ALL are welcome.......

based on participation (showing up AND behavior patterns) and attendance they are graduated into the Shaolin Kung Fu class taught by Master Tang, from Shanghai........

In phase two,if there are certain prob's such as not being able to perform to an extent....within reason, or not showing up to class occur over too many times student is bumped back down to phase two.......

this is free to students, my FOCUS pais for the classes....

In 5 years I have only had to say bye bye to two students, that is not too bad.... one within the first month of first phase and one student that was involved for off and on 5 years...... in second phase both for behavioral problems.... aggression on me and fellow students......

Can't you put it in the contract somewhere.... word it properly (talk to an attorney) regarding behavior issues that are not acceptable ?

As far as physical disabilities , I myself have many, and find I rather enjoy working with disabled students..... they enjoy as well and take great pride in their newfound skills! in addition reap many physical and emotional benefits!

KFG

[Davey Bones]

You can make behavioural problems part of the handbook, like my school does.

The problem comes in when you have a mentally ill youth who has serious MH/MR disorders. I work with kids for a living, and some of them are *bad*. The question is "are they just being bad, or is it a manifestation of their MH/MR disorder?" It's a fine line, but it seems to me that the general consensus is "Instructors, try your best, that's all we can ask."

[Existence]

i had one hand, i would put a hook on it.
no joke, you can really mess someone up with it.

[OneArmedBandit]

I think you mean "If I had one hand".

And seeing as i'm missing more than just the hand, having a hook sticking out of my shoulder would not be as cool.

[kungfu_charlie]

i heard somewhere, can't remember where that 70% of people that use a weapon in a fight end up having it turned against themselves.

[adouglasmhor]

i heard somewhere, can't remember where that 70% of people that use a weapon in a fight end up having it turned against themselves.

I heard they took the word gullible out the dictionary, why don't you go and have a wee look.

[kungfu_charlie]

I heard they took the word gullible out the dictionary, why don't you go and have a wee look.
LOL I think we straying from the subject of the thread however… before we return to the point…

I do of course refer to your common street weapon such as a knife or screw driver, a pole or a chain, I am pretty damn sure if I was attacked by someone using any of these weapons the attacker will have wished he'd chose a different victim. I was learning how to dodge and remove knives from attackers when I was 7 year old using aikido I am now 42, the O’Sensei of Aikido would take on a guy with a katana and I am sure that I’ve seen Stephen Seagal pull a similar stunt in at least one of his films, it would not be first choice to have to deal with such an opponent but because they were armed I would strike to cripple as apposed to humiliate.

Getting back to the thread…

It normally the gullible who think that all disabled are easy targets, many are, some are not… its very funny watching the gullible on the deck red in the face.

[BentMonk]

When I began my journey into MA practice, I originally wanted to train in Aikido. The instructor at the local Aikido school was polite, and very honest when he refused to take me as a student. He took note of my balance issues, lack of leg strength, and profound lack of hip flexibility. He said that he was fairly certain that I would not be able to execute even basic Aikido movements. He also said that he had absolutely no idea how he could adapt Aikido techniques effectively to my unique needs. I was disappointed, but not defeated. A dear friend introduced me to, Master John Price. He took note of my significant upper body strength, eagerness to learn, as well as the same limitations the Aikido instructor saw. Over the next 12 years he adapted the material in Shaolin Do to suit me. My fighting range is zero distance. I am a striker trapped in a grappler's body. Master Price turned my lack of balance into an asset by using my 30 plus years experience falling down to take my opponents to the ground. All the kicks in the material were changed to a knee or elbow. These adaptations work very well. Ask anyone who has underestimated me before a match. :D I am now training 6 developmentally challenged adults. We focus on developing the mind, body, and spirit. Each of them has their own area that they excel in. They are enjoying their training, and becoming physically and mentally stronger. They are not working on self defense yet. They are currently doing meditation, Tai Chi, and lots of strength and conditioning exercises. We will begin self defense when they are physically strong enough to apply it against a resisting opponent. I was given something real that I could use. I intend to do the same for my students.

[Ragnarok2005]

In the ITF I used to train with an autistic guy. Truth is, he slowed us down, failed all his exerices and asked stupid questions. [And I do mean stupid questions, as in, talking about payments when we're discussing breaking.] - He shouldn't have been there because it was only hindering the rest of us.

Nowadays I'm with the GTI and one of my good friends is deaf. [Well, as close as we can be with limited conversation.]

And he's very good. He manages to work out what he's doing just by observing other people and he is very receptive. If I'm sparring him and the instructor calls us to stop, I'll just take a step back and raise my hands or something. Anything. But he knows when to stop after 3 years of martial arts training and his balance is fine.

So yeah, don't knock them til you've seen them. I was born without any serious disability. People's strength of character may just suprise you!

[Sgt_Major]

Definately an interesting thread.

I agree whole heartedly with the principles of dont tell me what I cannot do until I try it.

Its a principle that we should all inherit, irresepective of disabled or not. I'm one for trying to encourage defeatists to look at the other side - conquer those barriers that hold you down. There is few vaild reasons for turning a disabled student away from MA. Even they are only learning to punch/kick/headbutt properly - and the cost of this should obviously be considered as less than a full system in my mind - then any student is perfectly legitimate in any club.

Behavioural problems are another matter, and one I would not like to go into as I dont know enough about it.

[BentMonk]

Two of my students have temper control issues. Their ability to control their temper, and express their anger in an appropriate manner has improved dramatically since they began training. When I asked them how their training helped them achieve this, they told me that it was a combination of meditation, and the knowledge that they would no longer be able to train if they hurt someone. I strive to teach them that the art is perfecting one's mind, body, and spirit. The martial aspect is ever present, but used with the utmost restraint, and only in the most dire of circumstances. I haven't had to yet, but I will dismiss a student if they cannot control themselves.

[Bil Gee]

Behavioural problems are another matter, and one I would not like to go into as I dont know enough about it.

Often there's a lot of advice available, so you don't have to be an expert on behavioural problems to make a good decision. If someone has very marked, severe behavioural problems, the chances are that they will have a number of professionals involved with them, one of these people will be identified as the person's keyworker i.e. the central point of contact. With the person's consent the keyworker will advise you of potential issues and help you to formulate a strategy based on their clinical knowledge and their understanding of the persons condition.

It would be reasonable to insist on them consenting to the keyworker advising you, as a requirement for entering the class.


This is based on my experience in the UK, but the setup in the rest of Europe and the US isn't that significantly different.

[Crimson_Stone]

I would say acceptance of disabled students would be largely based on the abilities of those who run the school. My current TKD sensei is very invovled with local Deaf Action Center and we have quite a few deaf students.

My Aikido sensei back in the late 80's early 90's developed a comprehensive method for training deaf, blind, and deaf/blind students.

[xen]

i think any dojo worth its salt would go out of their way to make people with disablities welcome and would be happy to work hard to develop adaptions to the training which maximise the benefit each individual receives, be that for the purposes of self-defence, competition, fitness or whatever.

i'm sure its been discussed on here before; the kickboxer with thalidamide who trained for a cage fight. He was around forty and his club and trainer backed him all the way.
(Ch4 documentary a couple of years ago)

Inspiring.

[Novembers Paul]

Getting back on topic, and putting insurance issues aside, I think anyone with the desire to learn should be accpeted, disability or not. It's up to the instructor to do his best with every student. No two students are alike, and each require a bit more attention in different areas. It can certainly be difficult depending on the disability, but also must be rewarding for an instructor to be able to reach out, and give the same knowledge and experience, even if modified, to someone disabled. I'm all for it!

[soctt03]

This should not, in my opinion, be a question that should be asked as basically we should be willing to welcome those with disabilities in to our dojo's. I personally have a deafblind adult and a youngster who has slight learning difficulties in my dojo & neither give me a problem at all. In the UK we have the Disability Discrimination Act which should not give any reason for an insurer adversely discriminating against someone on the grounds of his/her disability. So basically this should not be a problem. Anyway, no doubt this debate will continue to rage. & so may it.

[Battle Sword]

Yes, they should accept the disabled student!
The disabled person might consider asking these question.
Is the instructor capable of understanding the nature of the disability?
Are both the instructor & student patient enough to work together?
Is the instructor willing to develop the current techs. in their style to adapt to the disabled student's needs?
Train, learn, have fun & always be positive!
Just some thoughts! :Angel:

[ember]

I'm probably biased here, but I think this is one area where a TMA is at some advantage. Usually, all the bowing as we enter the dojang, bowing as we start class, bowing to our partner for sparring, helps get me into the right frame of mind for training.

Another factor that helps is that most of the people I would be sparring in the dojang are there to learn and/or to help me learn. They aren't trying to hurt me.

The one time I had trouble with my control at my dojang... he was about 18 inches taller, a 2nd degree black belt, a Grand Champion who often got the gold sparring in Tournament. He was more than equipped to take care of himself while talking me down.

I still felt sick about it afterwards, and took preventive measures to keep it from happening again.

Two of my students have temper control issues. Their ability to control their temper, and express their anger in an appropriate manner has improved dramatically since they began training. When I asked them how their training helped them achieve this, they told me that it was a combination of meditation, and the knowledge that they would no longer be able to train if they hurt someone. I strive to teach them that the art is perfecting one's mind, body, and spirit. The martial aspect is ever present, but used with the utmost restraint, and only in the most dire of circumstances. I haven't had to yet, but I will dismiss a student if they cannot control themselves.

[Dojo]

I think ANYONE should be able to study MA. Even if a disabled person might require more attention than another one I would gladly do this. It would be an honour for me and the sense of achievement would be great. I have read about many people with disabilities who have improved their life a lot because of MA. I admire them and I would love seeing this miracle happen.

[Carlos Ramos]

Yea, I agree...there's no reason as to why anyone should be rejected from a school due to a disability. Sometimes, a disabled person will actually excell more than a non-disabled person. Not only that, but a disabled person is a HUUUGE motivater...it forces people who always have an excuse in class to stop complaining (people who say, "oh I'm too tired" or "I'm not strong enough"). It's all about the will.

I know this because in highschool, our wrestling coach had Scleroderma(?) on both arms (withered arms), and he still gave everyone a woopin. Also, I once saw a show on tv where a guy with one eye (therefore having no depth perception) being able to break mass amounts of bricks. And in my last school, I had a peer who was completely deaf from birth.

I mean, sometimes both the disabled and the peers/instructors need to help each other out...and sometimes it may be difficult, but many people can still do it.

[ArmysFunkyFoe]

i say we find a bunch of disabled kids and go to that insurence company and have them resolve this!!!! :D :D :D

[Rebecca]

The question of whether or not to accept a particular disabled student should, IMO, be considered carefully. I'm in the process of doing this right now, and here are some of the questions I am asking:

1. Will martial arts training pose a risk to this student? Our style involves both stand-up and ground fighting, with contact beginning at white belt level. I was very hesistant to enroll a student with an ileostomy; after five classes, and observing the other students, he decided that I had been wise in my hesitation. Currently I am considering whether or not it would be wise for a young student with one eye, an increased risk for retinal detachment in his remaining eye, one kidney, and several other issues to train in a contact style.

2. Can this student learn enough of the martial art to make it worth everyone's time and his money? Will this student benefit from martial arts training? For example, can a student who is incapable of following even the simplest directions ("Bend your knee", "Look at me") learn a martial art?

3. Does the instructor have enough knowledge and experience in teaching people with this particular disability? Where will he/she gain that knowledge? Does he know which activities may injure the student, and how to adapt those activities?

4. Does the disabled student have medical clearance to participate?

5. Will the disabled student be able to participate in a meaningful way in a class without disrupting the class, changing its structure entirely, monopolizing the instructors' attention and teaching time, or in any way diminishing the training of the current students?

I am all for giving disabled students a chance to train. I think that is what intro classes are for --- I never refuse anyone, no matter what my misgivings might be. Since our intro classes are outside of the regular classes, I am able to spend one on one time and really assess whether a student is ready for our classes, what adaptations may need to be made, etc.

However, not every instructor should be so arrogant as to consider himself or herself capable of teaching martial arts to every disabled student. I've seen some well-meaning instructors suggest some training methods that would have crippled their students if they had gone alone with their hair-brained notions. If you are going to teach a seriously disabled student, you had better learn as much as possible about the disability, and be willing to work along with medical professionals, teachers, parents, and whatever caretaking team is already in place.

And, while doing all that, make sure that you keep your commitment to your current students.

Having said all that, I think we should not be quick to tell students they cannot train because of a disability. Give them a chance to observe classes. Let them take intro classes. Be willing to adapt the pace of those classes. Learn about the disability. If this student and your dojo are not a fit, try to help them find a school, style, or other activity that might be better suited to them.

[faster than you]

jean-jacques machado--enough said.

[matbla]

i am learning disabled and do karate
so i thank if they show they can do it then let them
and know what limits they have
i would feel unhappy if someone told me because i am learning
disabled i could not do karate.
so to end it all yes they can take them if they
can show they can do it o.k from matt blake

[matbla]

yes they should .
or even have a class for handicaps donot throw them away
from matt blake

[prowla]

Basically, Rebecca just about said it all.

[KickChick]

Karate teacher trains children with disabilities (http://www.sgvtribune.com/news/ci_3879216) .... good article


More MA school owners should start programs such as his Possibilities Unlimited International to use karate to help children with physical and cognitive problems.

[Sedvan]

Anyone who is willing to try to overcome their disabilities is a better student then a person with none, who comes with a bad attitude. The attitude makes me want to help someone more.

[KungFuGrrrl]

WOW
thanks

you made my day......IM disabled..... I train disabled people and I direct them to Kung Fu Masters.

[BentMonk]

I have CP and work as a quality living assistant in an adult day training center. I currently teach a martial arts class eight students strong. With 37 years of experience adapting my own life to the fun and excitement of having CP, 12 years of formal martial arts study and tournament experience, and 8 years in the direct health care field, I feel that I can help people in various aspects of their life through martial arts training. There are exceptional instructors in every martial art. However, I feel that to effectively train someone with a disability, the instructor must have either above average knowledge of the body and it's mechanics, or experience with disability. Without one of these two things it is extremely difficult to adapt any martial technique and retain it's effectiveness. Although there are many mental, physical, and spiritual benefits gained from martial arts training, I feel that it is vital for any adapted technique to retain it's martial effectiveness. I say this because 85% of all disabled people have been the victim of violence. Therefore the question is not about acceptance. Each teacher should ask them self if they can adapt their art to someone with unique needs and abilities, while retaining the spirit and usefulness. Honesty always leads to honor.

[dect69]

I think the thing to remember (and I believe Rebecca covered most of these points) is that you HAVE to treat each case as individual! My youngest (who is 2.5 years at the mo') has Downs Syndrome with a heart defect. Her abilities are completely different to other children at the same age with DS - so you are unable to say - this person has DS therefore X, Y and Z will happen!

She comes along every day my other two train and she is currently desperate to get on to the mats and participate! The head instructor is already looking forward to having her there! And we know that it help with her physically and mentally! (plus you grab a pair of focus pads she'll hit them!! :) )

But, as I said, you must remember to treat people on a person by person basis. Even within the Special Olympics there are problems with, for example, swimming categories! At the moment someone who is deaf but in excellent physical shape can compete in the same category as someone with DS who is, more than like, to have some degree of low muscle tone - not exactly fair even but it does show that it's important to treat each as an individual not a category.

[prowla]

I guess the other side is how will it affect the training of the "able bodied" people?
The fact is that those people need to be pushed to the limit to progress, and the ability of a disabled partner to do that will be diminished in accordance with their disability.
Practicioners would also need to act with restraint when facing a disabled person - can you imagine how devastated you would be if you did further damage to a physically disabled person? I guess there is some kind of notional scale, ranging from deafness (virtually no impact on ability), to being in a wheelchair (severe impact).
We have three people in our class who you have to be careful with: one is a young lady who has several difficulties, the second is an excellent (!!!) karateka who got his arm badly injured in kumite (and I'm petrified of touching it), and the third is a youth who has fragile knees (and I hurt him a few weeks back by doing a slight sweep - only one to take the balance, not dump him on the floor).
I've previously blown a grading because I was scared of hitting my opponent, and they tagged me easily and basically made me look bad.

My Yoga teacher uses a term "restriction" to refer to any kind of limitation that will impede your ability to do the designated actions.
It's a really good neutral term.
In my case I have several restrictions: I'm 46, have creaking joints, have had a knee operation, am permanently carrying at least two injuries (that I could easily use as an excuse to give up), am overweight, my eyesight is deteriorating, my reflexes are slow, and I have poor stamina.
I don't know if a fortysomething trying to pretend they're 19 counts as a disability too? :rolleyes:

On a final note, I guess if there were too many disabled people in a class, it would probably mean that the able bodied people wouldn't get out of it what they need to, and so they would probably move on.

[KungFuGrrrl]

[QUOTE= However, I feel that to effectively train someone with a disability, the instructor must have either above average knowledge of the body and it's mechanics, or experience with disability. Without one of these two things it is extremely difficult to adapt any martial technique and retain it's effectiveness. Although there are many mental, physical, and spiritual benefits gained from martial arts training, I feel that it is vital for any adapted technique to retain it's martial effectiveness. Each teacher should ask them self if they can adapt their art to someone with unique needs and abilities, while retaining the spirit and usefulness. Honesty always leads to honor.[/QUOTE]

Great point! this is why I am working on a degree in kinesiology, to compliment my teachings on Tai Chi Chuan (to battered women and children and I work with the elderly). As a disabled person myself, I am aware of some of the issues that come up during class ..... (ruptured disc, panic disorder etc...neurological damage) ........

[narcsarge]

Great point! this is why I am working on a degree in kinesiology, to compliment my teachings on Tai Chi Chuan (to battered women and children and I work with the elderly). As a disabled person myself, I am aware of some of the issues that come up during class ..... (ruptured disc, panic disorder etc...neurological damage) ........


Brava young lady. Having been an instructor in swimming, fire arms, hand to hand combat, and the like I agree. Knowing or learning about body mechanics and the body in motion can significantly impact the disabled student. You will start to teach them what they "CAN" do and limit what they can't. Nothing better for self esteem and confidence. Good on ya KFG!

[darkcloud]

the thing is no one is saying, if class could be this dangerous for the induvidual, then what about the streets? the arts could improve cognitave focus in the disabled so if someone tried to harm them they could at least shrug them off enough to get to help. not to mention it would teach your students compassion and restraint. i mean what if your students had to fight someone they didn't want to hurt? the risks are in-numerable for us and them. the equality is that we have take the same risks, you could be as smart as einstien and as brawny as the hulk and still get beat stupid and w/in an inch of your life by a disabled ma. involve them in every aspect(condition permiting) but they shouldn't be pampered b/c there is not equality in that.

[Rebecca]

However, I feel that to effectively train someone with a disability, the instructor must have either above average knowledge of the body and it's mechanics, or experience with disability. Without one of these two things it is extremely difficult to adapt any martial technique and retain it's effectiveness. Although there are many mental, physical, and spiritual benefits gained from martial arts training, I feel that it is vital for any adapted technique to retain it's martial effectiveness. I say this because 85% of all disabled people have been the victim of violence. Therefore the question is not about acceptance. Each teacher should ask them self if they can adapt their art to someone with unique needs and abilities, while retaining the spirit and usefulness. Honesty always leads to honor.

This is an essential point to make, and you stated it well.

I recall seeing a kata (one that I know well) adapted for a man in a wheel chair. Unfortunately, that particular adaptation did not take into consideration the application of the kata and rendered some of the techniques not only useless but dangerous. If I were going to teach a student in a wheelchair, I would want to know, among other things, the most common attacks wheelchair-bound individuals experience, what body parts are most frequently targeted, how the wheelchair can be used as a weapon, how to reduce the person's vulnerability to attack, etc., etc. This particular kata adaptation did not seem to address those issues. In fact, I thought it made the person in the wheelchair even more vulnerable. Example: after every punch, the man dropped both hands in order to propel his wheelchair forward. In the actual kata, there were steps forward; however, these steps were taken while pushing the opponent, off-balancing him, and blocking any attempt at a counter-attack. In the wheelchair version, the kata seemed to assume that the attacker would just wait there patiently and passively, without any attempt at counter-attack, for the person in the wheelchair to get in closer and launch another technique. It was as if the person adapting the kata had merely tried to make it "look" like the regular version, without taking bunkai into consideration.

[BentMonk]

I too have seen techniques rendered useless by quick and simple adaptation. In fact as Rebecca stated, the adaptation is basic mimicry rather than effective martial customization. This type of thing is dangerous because it instills a false sense of confidence. So I say to anyone studying MA disabled or not, if your training does not include strength training, endurance training, and application of techniques against a live resisting opponent, find a new place to train before you get hurt.

[PopeCoyote]

I vote yes- one of my first MA clubs, Challenge Karate Club at Purdue University (Shotokan Karate), was founded by someone taught by Sensei Tony Johnson, who founded the Challenge Foundation and taught Karate to disabled people. In fact, our sensei talked a lot about how Sensei Tony taught to people in wheelchairs.

http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~shotokan/

[FightingMonk2k3]

honestly, i think martial arts instructors should allow disabled people to join up. if they did not, then i wouldn't be in the martial arts. i have 1 eye that has been cut in half when i was very young, and i've had to deal w/ only being able to use 1 eye since then. the instructors that i had while i was w/ the Villari Shaolin Kempo system, did modify the sparring terms for me when i sparred. they just told the other student of my injury and to just to watch out for strikes to my head.

[BentMonk]

O.K. Let's get this thread back on track. As long as the instructor is willing and compotent, and the disabled student is safely intergrated into the class, of course a MA school school accept a disabled student. :D

[KickChick]

Thank you BentMonk :)

I posted a new thread today here in the DMA forum http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54377 (Seido) wherein I will quote Kaicho Tadashi Nakamura, the founder of Seido:

"This is the way it should be, everyone treated equally," Mr. Nakamura said, explaining that witnessing nontraditional students overcome their challenges often empowers other students to approach karate with a new passion. "They help each other, they appreciate each other."

He has taught blind and deaf students, as well as others with physical and mental impairments.

[KaratekaAndy]

Anyone who takes an interest in the MA should be allowwed to become a student, regardless of other factors - Equal Rights leads to an Equal World :Angel:

[Dave Humm]

Having never tutored someone with disabilities I approach this debate with a very naive but open minded attitude.

As a student of a martial art I would expect that for someone else (one’s instructor) to teach it competently they would need to be trained to do so; likewise when teaching children, specific considerations must be made, including a child specific coaching award which supplements the initial adult course, now; I would assume that to be able to competently teach a worth-while set of skills to a person with disabilities, a number of considerations (and a number of specific assessments) should be made to cater for the disability and, to cater for the able-bodied students who will act as training partners. Perhaps I present the obvious but I know the three organisations I belong to have Adult and Children's coaching awards, but none of them cater for teaching instructors how to cater for students with disability.

In one respect the carrying out of additional risk assessments should be done and, when looking specifically at the disability, formation of a particular training program which will accommodate (without patronisation) the specific abilities of the individual.

Providing the rational behind teaching disabled students is exactly the same as it is for others; I can't really see a major problem.

Looking forward to hearing from you guys.

[BentMonk]

Great post Dave. Being both a disabled student and teacher, I have been blessed with a unique perspective. I also have been fortunate in having the knowledge of doctors, physical therapists, and occupational therapists to draw upon. With their help, I can be sure that MA training does not adversely affect my students. Hopefully I can provide them with MA training that is as effective as it is rewarding.

[canemaster]

[INDENT][FONT=Comic Sans MS]


Hi Everyone-THANK YOU for accepting me as a member of MAP :) I will start here because I have Cerebral Palsy and even before I was a member, I saw that this forum was loaded for bear. I'm glad that the vast majority understand that we "physically challenged" folk deserve the opportunity to participate at all times. If we're talking about a minor, obviously the parents/guardians should work with instructors to see that the experience is fun for the child-especially in group classes. I know even as an adult I sometimes feel like I am slowing a class or a person down because it takes longer for me to do certain things, or because I'll have different warmup exercises than others because of the spasticity (tightness caused by damage to my nervous system) in my back and legs. I study Kempo Jujitsu and Cane Self Defense (have the last three years) and the TOUGHEST thing about the experience is realizing I have to be the best person/whatever Belt I'm testing for, and NOT worry about what, say, Kick Chick (no matter how beautiful as she appears in photo and kind words- :)) or other students are doing. To their credit, my senseis have modified my instruction to enhance my upper body strength while improving my leg balance and movement. Still, I've not done much grappling because if I fall in a confrontation-PROBLEM. BUT-I've learned things with the cane that most students DO NOT. So my current Blue Belt is well earned.
I have found that it sometimes takes a special kind of teacher to work with someone with limitations. Years ago, I tried Tae Kwon Do-YES-too much kicking-but I was always sent to a corner of a room while the other students were going through the class, as I tried to simply master a front kick. The teachers, though quite knowledgeable, didn't know how to handle me. Here I was, a college educated professional, made to feel less than.
Years later, I met in Kempo Jujitsu instructors who have extensive experience with the elderly and disabled and who quite honestly have more faith in me and their students than I or perhaps their family and friends do,
All that said-questions: Does anyone know of martial arts federations/associations in the NY area that have competitions for physically challenged adults? I ask because the NY State Martial Arts Championships are being held near me in October. But there are no "physically challenged adult" divisions, only for children. I am considering entering the 40+ forms competition (Cane Kata of course) but one of my instructors is worried-that I won't be judged fairly, but treated condescendingly ("Isn't it sweet that this guy is doing this? Let's give him a medal just for being here!" rather than "WOW, this guys got talent!" or "The potential is there if he improves technique." Do any of you out there have experiences you can relate to/share about how the "disabled" are treated in competitions?
Of course, if I enter the forms and CLEARLY win, I'll have nothing to worry about. Looking forward to hearing from you and checking out this site, God bless you all

canemaster (and NO, I am NOT Mark Shuey!) LOL :cool:

[Jang Bong]

Hey! I wanted to train with you at SENI, and you didn't show up. :woo:

canemaster (and NO, I am NOT Mark Shuey!) LOL :cool:

Oh!! Sorry about that :Angel: :D :D :D

Great post, and I'm glad you've found the forum welcoming. Congratulations on your training so far, and good luck with the competitions :)

[matbla]

i like and love this topic and i
hope it keeps going on and on
i want all karate schools to read the topic and all the replys and made
there might be a school here in queensbury, ny that would cater to people like me
from matt blake

[BentMonk]

Greetings CaneMaster -

I too have been frustrated with the lack of arena's for disabled adult MA practitioners to compete in. I have competed in several tournaments against non-disabled competitors. In most of the matches the rules were, light to medium body contact, with no head contact. I competed in both point and non-stop divisions. Everything other than the knees was a valid targets. In point it was one point for a punch, two for a kick, three for a take down followed by a punch. Non-stop consisted of two one minute rounds, and four corner judges awarding victory at the end of the second round to the fighter who scored the most clean and controlled shots. Neither of these formats were suited to my fighting style. In point I could only score one point at a time since I can't kick, and got tagged every time I went for a take down. In non-stop I couldn't make contact with my punches, so all the judges saw was me getting kicked. I did compete in one tournament the used TKD tourney rules, what a total joke. First I received a warning for throwing a totally pulled punch at my opponents head. Since the only place I could score a point was to my opponents chest, he hopped around on one leg, kicking at me and covering up his chest. I timed his kicks, grabbed his ankle, and thrust his leg up, dumping him on his pride. I was disqualified for sweeping a supporting leg. The first and only time I was able to utilize my strengths was this March at the Arnold Classic. I fought a full contact match against a disabled MMA fighter named Ron Mann. One point was scored for each strike that landed. Ground technique was limited to ten seconds if no clean submission was executed. I was fortunate to be ahead three to two when time expired. In this match my punches were obvious, and I was able to jam or deflect his kicks in order to land solid punches. Ron is a very skilled fighter and I am not so sure I would have stayed ahead in points if there had been more time on the clock. His prosthetic leg hurts when he kicks you in the head. :D Ron is working on creating a competition for disabled fighters who want to trade a little leather. While I understand the liability issues faced by organizers of tournaments, and the potential for injury faced by the fighters. However, if placed in an even with similar fighters, the risk would be no greater than any other fighter entering a ring. I have said this many times. Disabled people are more likely to need their skills in the real world than others. To teach them movements with no application is not only disrespectful, it is dangerous. What better way for them to test there ability than in the ring?

BTW CaneMaster, do you practice defending against your own cane, and fighting without it?

[canemaster]

Hi all
Bent Monk, thank you for sharing your experiences. I believe I've heard of Ron Mann. YES-I do train both with/without the cane-which by the way, is a CANEMASTERS cane. Hence, my screen name. If I can figure out how to do it, I'll post my Blue Belt Test photo from 7-21 :)
To answer more clearly: I started Kempo-Jujitsu about three years ago shortly after a co-worker died. I wandered into my current school when it was specifically still a Brazilian Ju Jitsu school. It just didn't seem right-just as Tae Kwon Do wasn't back in 1990. But, I noticed in 10/2003 that the school name/management had changed, so I wandered in again. The instructor didn't promise any great miracles, only that he was willing to work with me as he had other disabled people. So I went for it :)
The first year or so especially was about my conditioning. Not that I was in bad shape for someone with Cerebral Palsy-quite the contrary-but having to lean on that cane and drop a few pounds-that made things tough. I had been a UCP competitive powerlifter in college, so I had/have upper body strength. But I could barely kick with either leg-even the left, MUCH more powerful leg. If you've ever seen the bags that have the black base and then look like this:

y
r
u
t
n
e
c
------------------(base)
Today, I can kick in the t/u range with an occaisional r with the left leg, and just get over the base with the right (Of course, if we face each other in competition Bent Monk, or if I were really blessed to face the lovely Kick Chick (prettiest and most dangerous lady on the site ;) you NOW know my weakness! BUT-both legs are tremendously stronger-even developing calf muscles I never knew existed! I think the senseis are MORE thrilled for me than I am.I did 1,501 legitimate kicks at a fundraiser the school had in June for St. Jude's Children's Research Hospital. Last year-250 kicks.
Still, its been no picnic-it took 15 months just to go from purple to blue belt in the school's system-because of my job and because I wanted no special treatment. The senseis even close the school each year to support the Golf Outing and fundraising dinner for the cancer foundation of the friend I mentioned earlier who had passed away. Ironically, one of the things that helped me see that I COULD keep going was the movie Daredevil. Though not to be confused with Casablanca, there was some darn good fight scenes/choreography. Plus, if I blind guy could move a cane like that, then so can I.
While the instructors had to modify certain things (the crane stance is still next to impossible, and I can hold a horse stance for a while) pretty much anything that involves arms are OK-Until I have to move. If I stand in front to do a wrist lock or armbar-great, but if I have to step into your shoulder and lock your arm/wrist (as if I had to throw you) I have to work on maintaing balance. I LOVE choke holds-the arms are plenty strong-but manuvering and balance, though a lot better, are issues.
I have done very little grappling (more Kempo than Jujitsu). Early on, I tried to roll out of a guard. My left leg didn't move, and I nearly snapped my hamstring! The sensei said that had I not been working regularly to stretch the leg, I would have broken it. He wants to get back to doing grappling with me now that I have reached blue belt status. But we do standup/freestyle with cane/without-how to grab a person and take momentum to push out of way. One instructor in particular has told me to think of my cane the way Batman thinks of his utility belt-OR on Highlander, how Duncan McLeod thinks of his sword-one day it may be only friend I have. My hand strikes are good but not fast-with the cane, its both. Think strikes like you would a bo staff, plus a cane with a nasty hook-WHOA! The lead sensei at school wants to be a certified cane instructor. There are lots of stuff that can be done.
Bent Monk, the BIGGEST issues are CONTROL-I still don't know my own strength, and have hit both instructors a bit too hard with a cane or elbow-and CONFIDENCE. Until this summer, most of my lessons were private. Now, I can't get frustrated when a 16 year old yellow belt does the Bo Staff routine better than I do.
I'm also learning a Kata-kata chi ich (If I mispelt, please forgive) with/without the cane. That is the form I may do at the NY State Martial Arts Championship IF I am able to compete. No matter what, I wouldn't trade my martial arts experiences, no matter how limited, for a date with Halle Berry or Kick Chick (Ok, I digress!) I want to keep learning all I can. I wish I had understood that years ago, but there's no time like the present, aka NOW. Maybe life began at 38 rather than 40. Be well, my next class is in 9 hours :)

Canemaster

[Tommy-2guns...]

i train disabled students even though i am not trained to teach such people, i teach self defence to a man in a wheel chair and a man with one arm which is verry verry short and the other normal size (although the conditions name escapes me), i think that disabled students just take a little more planning and consideration when deciding what techniques to teach them, i make sure they know what i teach the other class members but then i also take them aside for a while in training and teach them specific technqiues which are only applicable to them in their condition.

i think to alienate them from the rest of the class is verry wrong, so i let them try every technique even if its not relaly effective for them but thats more of a morale thing. i find training disabled people refreshing and makes you evaluate techniques that little extra.

[tort]

Glad to see that you are doing a positive thing not only for your students but for yourself. My school in NE has two men that are in wheelchairs and the instructor does everything to make them a part of the class.

They line up and do warm ups, spar, and do their variation of their forms with their respective belt rankings. I really enjoyed sparring with them cause it was very challenging for me; i found it very hard to get behind them.

Keep up the good work!!

[canemaster]

[B]
Hi all-I just wanted to commend Tommy 2 Guns and Tort for their efforts to teach those who are physically challenged. As some of the other posts mentioned, it takes time on the part of an instructor to see what the students can/cannot do-regardless of physical limitations. I NOW know that Tae Kwon Do may not have been the art for ME. Back in 1990, I was hurt by the fact that my instructors and the school officials were interested in looking good by having a "disabled" person in the ranks. The kicking was too much for me at that time. TKD is a great art, but now years later I'm learning Kempo-Jujitsu and Cane Self Defense. It took a while for me to realize that grappling was going to be tough. My senseis goals-improve my cardio, get more BALANCE, strike WITH and WITHOUT my cane, and stay on my feet, get inside to strike, toss, wrist locks etc. As a result, my legs are MUCH stronger :) and the real focus of so many arts-self confidence, self respect-shine through! Those are things we all, and especially those that are physically limited, struggle with. BUT NOW, after three years, we can start seeing what I CAN DO while grappling instead of what I COULD NOT do months/years ago. Studying any MA is a process. Today I can see why my instuctor says, "Do the elbow (with a cane a thrust) to the chest, THEN the hammer to the "crown jewels." (and with the cane, under and hook!) I now see the method, and that if I do the first strike RIGHT, I may not need the follow up to get that extra time to get away from a confrontation.
What does all this mean? I guess that I'm getting smarter in my old age, and I like what I am doing.
God Bless All,

Canemaster

[sifu.dlee]

Back in the early 80 we had a hearing impaired person wanting to take class’s. My teacher made all of the instructors learn A.S.L.(American sign language) Thus my teacher instilled that we were to teach every one to the best of our abilities.

[kickgirl]

Martial arts schools can and do train "disabled" students. I personally know a TKD instructor who has only one arm. It doesn't hinder his forms and if you get punched with what he calls "the nub" it hurts worse than a fist!!

It may have already been mentioned, but I would like to get it of my chest as i have recenly been at the receiving end of such an issue.

Martial art teachers are required to have insurance against injury to a student or more than one student etc. and to be, or have on hand a trained certified first-aid person.

If a teacher is approached by a disabled person regardless of the disability I would imagine the alarm bells would ring for that teacher “alert my insurance might not pay out”. Does the insurance policy cover a disabled person?

Does the teacher look at how his/her martial is performed and come to the conclusion that’s its not possible?

In this growing world of nasty bullies and hooligans who think nothing of beating up a person regardless of age in a wheelchair, or have one leg, or one arm, or are blind or deaf, sorry if I’ve missed anyone one out, should these people be helped in defending themselves in such situations, if not many teachers are prepared to teach these people how are they ever to walk amongst the considered normal people and feel confident and safe.

Okay the imperfect of us will not be able to do the technique as well as a normal student, but I am sure armed with a few tricks or modified technique could surly help.

I would love to hear the thoughts from genuine people on the subject and please try to remember the disabled have feelings they are just packaged a little differently.

[mcosme]

This is a great topic. Slightly off the subject, but I have been wondering about this. If an individual with disabilities trains at a school, does that mean that changes have to be made, improvements to the school in regards to handrails, ramps, and expanding the bathrooms. Our school has very small bathrooms that could never accommodate a wheelchair. Has anyone had to deal with this aspect?

[BentMonk]

This is a great topic. Slightly off the subject, but I have been wondering about this. If an individual with disabilities trains at a school, does that mean that changes have to be made, improvements to the school in regards to handrails, ramps, and expanding the bathrooms. Our school has very small bathrooms that could never accommodate a wheelchair. Has anyone had to deal with this aspect?

I deal with this situation twice a week. Our school is also not very big in terms of restroom space, also the sidewalk of the business strip where we're located doesn't have a very good access ramp. My two wheelchair using students have to drive to the very end of this strip to the ramp. Then roll up a narrow walk to our door. It's slightly inconvenient for them, but we all have politically incorrect senses of humor, so we just laugh and train on. However, if my classes continue to grow at their current rate, I will look into a more accessible building. Our current school's location and lack of additional space, make remodeling almost impossible. I've also been to other schools where accessibility was addressed when the school was built. If the grants pan out, I'll have one of those someday. :D

[andyclare]

Hello Everyone,

I Lost the Total Use of My Right Arm Years Back in a Motorbike Accident. A coulpe of years after my Accident Some mates got me to go to a Kung FU class where i found i could do alot of things better than some people using two Arms!

I Went on to Train in Kickboxing Where i Gained My 1st Dan Black Belt, I have Been in Newspapers, and was Even featured as Martil Artist of the Month in Feb 96 issue of Martial Arts Illustrated Magazine, This i would have never Done if Any Martial Arts Instructor had Said '' Sorry Mate, Cant Teach You, You Have A Disability''.

Martial Arts Gave Me Bags of confidence in myself that no way would i have ever had without it.

Nowdays im a bit of a lazy Bastxxx and dont train very often, But i can still do the side splits on two chairs and Knock your head off with a Spinning Hook Kick, How many normal ordinary people on the steet can do that??.

Anyway, To Anyone who Reads this who Has a Disability, If you fancy Martial Arts, Go Ahead and Have A Go, If you have no Legs, Learn to use your Arms, If you have No Arms, Use your Legs! Almost Aybody can Learn Something No matter How Small, Every Human being on the planet is Different Reguardless of A disability or not, We All Can't Do the same Things.

Have A go, Do what you Realistically Yourself can Do.


ANDY..................

[jonwade]

OK, I have not read all the posts here, but it is worth mentioning (possibly again) that a martial art should not be elitist, anyone can learn if they have the willpower to succeed. More importantly discrimination to less abled is illegal in the UK. If a less abled person wishes to study, they are entitled to. A lot can be learnt from a wheel chair, with poor sight, with one arm etc.

An instructor should be capable of aiding people of all abilities. If the class is too difficult for an individual, then they will probably chose to do something else. Sorry if I have repeated anything.

[Dave Hail]

Hi guys,

I've read the above thread with a great degree of interest as I am an instructor, and I've noticed that there are a lot of people that strongly recomend that anyone can train in any martial art.

I think this "definitly yes" attitude is as naive as the "definitly no" is ignorant. But before I have everone shouting at me I'd like to explain.

I would NOT reject a disabled student who came to me seeking instruction. What I would do is a very careful assessment of the student and his or her capabilities in relation to what I teach. Also I would need to examine the impact (no pun intended) that the disabled student would have on my other students and also the impact my other students would have on the newcomer.

For example, a student with minor physical disabilities may fit right into my classes or minor modification to the way in which I teach may be required, however a student with physical control or behavourial problems may present a danger to either himself or others within the Dojo. My school is predominantly a sword school. Iaito are used for kata on a regular basis by many of my students. A student having a momentary loss of control unarmed could be dangerous, the same student with a blade, albeit blunt, could kill.

I firmly believe that ANY instructor wishing to teach disabled student has a great restonsibility to be aware of ALL the possible consequences to admitting such a student.

I'm not saying don't admit disabled students, I believe people with disibilities should be given the opportunity to live life to the maximum like the rest of us, I'm saying admit them if you are confidant in doing so and don't be coerced into "biting off more than you can chew".

For those already teaching the less able students, well done, keep it up, you have my greatest respect. For those disabled students out there, I hope you get as much from your martial art as I do from mine.

[shuyun3]

I teach deaf students street fighting skills and it's not as easy as just teaching in sign. But it's quite fulfilling.

[BentMonk]

Dave - You are absolutely correct. My first MA of choice was Aikido. The instructor took one look at me and very politely declined teaching me. He told me that he did not think that I would be able to effectively perform the movements in Aikido forms. He said that he had no experience training someone with a disability, and had no clue how he could adapt Aikido to suit me. I appreciated his honesty. My current instructor has a substantial medical background. He is also a great martial artist and an awesome teacher. 12 years later, I'm strong, fast, and a fairly decent fighter. I also teach others with disabilities. Honesty, and knowledge of self a requirements for being a student or a teacher. :D

[Brat]

our school would have trouble accepting disabled martial artists, you have to go up about 30 stairs to get to the dojo.

[adouglasmhor]

our school would have trouble accepting disabled martial artists, you have to go up about 30 stairs to get to the dojo.

Do you think all disabled people are in wheelchairs or something? They could be deaf, have a learning difficulty, a proccessing disorder, a wasting disease, partial sight, cerebral palsy or have a limb missing from an accident. I find your comment insensitive at best if not downright rude.

[Jang Bong]

I find your comment insensitive at best if not downright rude.

Young and said (written) without thought ;) Time and experience will hopefully fix that :D

I know a couple of wheelchair users that would consider 30-stairs an 'inconvenience' rather than a 'barrier' if the teacher was good enough and they were genuinely keen. Attitude is everything :)

[adouglasmhor]

I agree JB but you know I am only harsh to convey how wrong I thought that point of view was, it would be easier to do it in a more laid back way face to face.

[Dr NinjaBellydance]

I firmly believe that ANY instructor wishing to teach disabled student has a great restonsibility to be aware of ALL the possible consequences to admitting such a student.

Surely this should apply to ANY instructor wishing to teach ANY student. The consequences that a student with a bad attitude has on a class environment is one of the most disruptive. :confused:

PS Doug and JB, you're right and I totally get where you're coming from but dont judge too harshly, eh? My father was in a wheelchair for most of the time I knew him. You say 'disabled person' to me and I immediately think of my Dad. Its a very skewed way of looking at the world, but that's just the way it is. Logically I know that its not accurate but if you ask me what immediately comes to mind I'll say 'Do you have any idea how difficult it is to get a wheelchair up an escalator?!' ;)

[bcullen]

So that's how you got into a school. I'm glad they found a place for you. :rolleyes:

[adouglasmhor]

I don't think that cuts the mustard.

[matbla]

yes they sghould even if they have to have a seperate class for them . from matt blake ;) :cool:

[StixMaster]

:Angel: I think that a disabled person deserves all the knowledge to be able to protect themselves. I have worked with people in wheelchairs and currently we have a student that has a bad foot injured in a motorcycle crash to the point where he has no 'big toe', yet he feels encouraged to train even with his disability. But as he gains knowledge he gains empowerment in his personal life. So I myself look forward to whatever the situation may present, so as to flow with it. I am a advocate to train those with disabilities, it helps them and you.

[TeaKD]

I have a physically disabled kid in my class and another with learning dificulties.

If I were to dismiss them from the class I would leave myself wide open to the legal ramifications of disability discrimination and being either shut down or sued or both (in the UK).

Anyone discriminating in the slightest against anyone with a disability can be taken to the cleaners - does everyone on this forum teach all students at the same speed ?
Shouldn't we be looking at individuals instead of a class as a whole ?
There are able bodied students who can't go through the grades at the same speed as others.


I think there would be legitimate grounds for refusing training to someone on the grounds of their disability

Bil Gee - place your knackers on the table, there is about to be a large legal hammer brought down upon them if you're teaching in the UK.


That and your attitude sucks big time.

Just because you don't know how to deal with it doesn't make it wrong.

[BentMonk]

My classes are structured so that while being part of a class, each person can participate at their own level. From warm ups and qigong, to physical conditioning and adapted Tai Chi we practice as a group, but no one is expected to move or progress identically to their classmates. Each person's training is customized based upon their goals and ability level. My students are having fun, getting in shape, and learning skills that serve them in various areas of their lives.

[StixMaster]

I have a physically disabled kid in my class and another with learning dificulties.

If I were to dismiss them from the class I would leave myself wide open to the legal ramifications of disability discrimination and being either shut down or sued or both (in the UK).

Anyone discriminating in the slightest against anyone with a disability can be taken to the cleaners - does everyone on this forum teach all students at the same speed ?
Shouldn't we be looking at individuals instead of a class as a whole ?
There are able bodied students who can't go through the grades at the same speed as others.



Bil Gee - place your knackers on the table, there is about to be a large legal hammer brought down upon them if you're teaching in the UK.


That and your attitude sucks big time.

Just because you don't know how to deal with it doesn't make it wrong.
Yes I do meet each student where they are at. Everyone learns at different levels, thats why its good for the teacher too,because the teacher gets to excercise patience with the student and him or herself! The legal problem is too many things now a days is not politically correct, for instance telling the truth, I'm sure with some legal research there can be found a loophole in that law. Peace out !!

[iHeretic]

I'm a wheelchair user. I was fortunate enough that when I first considered taking up MA, the first instructor I contacted (Aikido) said that while he'd had no previous experience, he was willing to give it a shot-- but I had to be aware of when something might be dangerous or (currently) impossible for me to perform.

In other words, I had to take a level of responsibility for my training.

Later on I also considered Tai Chi and, again, the first instructor I contacted was willing to teach me.

I've also dabbled in seminars and the odd session of FMA, JuJitsu, Judo, and Kenjutsu and all of the people I've worked with and met through MA (instructors and classmates alike) have been willing to work with me.

Nearly two years later I'm 3rd Kyu Aikido, preparing for my 2nd Kyu grading. I don't know or care if that's quick progress or not, but it wouldn't have happened if I hadn't exclusively met and trained with people who would give me the chance.

That said, I met briefly with David Lee of DMAA UK at Seni this year and he said that it took him several years to find a TKD teacher, which brought home to me the vast differences in attitudes that are out there.

But that's all by the by. It's been said by others in this thread better than me, but I think the teacher has the ultimate choice over who does and doesn't train in their dojo. They have to take a number of factors into account, not least of which is their own confidence in their ability to teach a student with disabilities and preserve the martial effectiveness of their art.

If it isn't going to work, the student may as well do Tae Bo or Jazzercise.

/b/

[StixMaster]

Guro Carlito Bonjoc Jr. is a disabled FMA instructor. He was personally trained by GM Angel Cabales/Serrada Eskrima as well as his father's style Cadiz Lapu-Lapu Eskrima etc.... here is a link : http://www.fmadigest.com/Issues/past_issues/vol4/Vol4_No1.pdf
Please check out his story, it is inspiring.

[BGile]

Guro Carlito Bonjoc Jr. is a disabled FMA instructor. He was personally trained by GM Angel Cabales/Serrada Eskrima as well as his father's style Cadiz Lapu-Lapu Eskrima etc.... here is a link : http://www.fmadigest.com/Issues/past_issues/vol4/Vol4_No1.pdf
Please check out his story, it is inspiring.


When I clicked on that link and observed Guro Carlito, the first thought that came to mind (hell on wheels) :) . I know the man and he is truly an insperation, for many who are in the arts.

When teaching at the school, he sits on a stool that my son and I made for him. (it allows him to be out of the wheel chair for the hour or so to teach). He is very good at the hand arts and with FMA that is much of the battle.

He moves with crutchs also at the same time if needed, but it is quite exerting and tiring.

I have seen him move the wheel chair around very skillfully and still swing the sticks or blade. Impressive person. Dedicated to instruction.

Very worth while to take in a seminar with him, if he is in your area.