Erle and controversy

[nzric]

I've been learning Erle Montaigue's "Fajing Taiji" Yang Lu Chan form for a couple of years now and I've always known there's a bit of history between Erle and the general TJQ community. I've heard comments which tend to go "well we all know he's a bit controversial, but...". I just want to know if there is anything in particular that has been controversial in the past or if it's more general.

From my experience I can see he's a down-to-earth Aussie who has no patience for the "chi power" gurus and is open with his criticism of those who claim to move mountains with tai chi. He is also a westerner and he openly teaches everything he knows - he doesn't hold back certain 'secret' moves or teaching.

Is it just these facts or something else? I don't want to contribute to spreading rumours about Erle, but I'm genuinely curious as to why he has a big reputation as "the controversial tai chi master".

[Jim]

IMO (of course it's my opinion - why else would I be saying it!) a lot has to do with;

His teaching style - I don't like 'talking' too much during classes (his video's come across that he does),

What he's showing - 'death touch' PP's just don't work against resisting opponents,

That's about it from my POV. I think I'd actually get along with him pretty well in real life. He's a lot like my older brother. :D

[khafra]

's interesting, because I'd always got the impression that he and George Dillman had a bit of a feud going on, because he felt that Dillman's interpretation of pp's would be useless in a real fight, while his were more practical.

[Kat]

Nzric(I sure you are refering to my comments,which I make because I have usually found Earle to be well known throughout the internet world of MA)
The Big Controversity is the naming of the form Yang Lu Chan form.Amongst other TJ people it is considered that Earles lineage is not verifiable,and while some will happily say his YLC form is a type(of Yang Style) mostly found practised in Taiwan most will question that it is not the actual form that Yang Lu Chan practised.The dominate Yang family in china aslo does not regcognize this form.Genarally it is beleived that YLC got his TJ off the Chen family.His Wudan forms are also questioned as to Linneage.Commerically Earle comes under a lot of flack for his marketing and emphasis on Dim Mak tech.

As you know personally I don't find have a problem at all,(in fact I practise YLC daily)and feel if its feels good for you and you get what you desire from the training I would'nt worry about linneage or other people thoughts on them.Through my trips to China and my involvement with language and other IMA I have found that part of understanding differences in styles is understanding there history of foundation(Linneage)The mainland Chinese place great importance on Linneage and usually apporach it from the "no one but a chinese person can trully understand TJ"

Check out KFO forum for some full anti Earle veiws.

[nzric]

Kat - Part of my question was in reference to some of your comments, but I have heard that Erle was controversial from other sources, for some time.

From my point of view, I like the YLC form as it has the fajing movements, which I think is important. For that reason I am interested in Chen style but I haven't followed that up because 1. I haven't found a good Chen teacher, and 2. I have a good taiji/bagua teacher already and I learn a lot from him so I don't need to switch.

I know there is a big focus on lineage but if you look at a number of taiji teachers it is obvious that a recognised lineage has nothing to do with skill. Anyway, most of the applications of the different styles are the same, and the forms are only exercises in order to teach the body how to move, so I don't know what the issue is.

Thanks for clearing things up for me.

[soggycat]

IMHO I think the controversy comes from acting like a " Know it All"
If he doesn’t agree with a point , then it musn’t be true.
Wouldn’t it be wiser to keep an open mind and make allowance for one’s lack of comprehension?

http://www.taijiworld.com/Articles/empty_force.htm

In the above article , he craps on people who claim to have " Empty Power/ Empty Force" ie. the ability to project Chi out of one's body to disable an attacker.
His evidence is that he can duplicate these “ party tricks”
Now I'm no expert , but I won’t be so arrogant as to make blanket statements for or against , just from watching a few video clips from some questionable website.
Who knows if there are real people who have real Empty Force skills who have nothing to prove, they do not make their skills known via websites .
People with real power know it and don’t need to convince you or I.
Yeah I’d a look at his own “Fajin” video clip on his website…..looks like brute strength to me compared to WingChun’s seemingly effortless One Inch Punch.
Looks more like External Martial Arts to me.

Someone ( a Caucasian )once remarked that he wouldn’t learn Martial Arts at an indepth level from a Westerner.
Most Western teachers grasp the obvious but not the finer points which often are accessible only with complete immersion of the culture that developed the art.
Few IMA Westerners like BK Frantzis, Miller , Crandall, Smith are able to sacrifice 20+years of their lives to “immerse” themselves in China.
Speaking the language helps with understanding the untranslatable.
Yes Eastern teachers do hold back, Western one’s tend not to.
But Eastern teachers are highly selective of their students, Westerners, in keeping with their “open” attitude will teach just about anyone…which has its good and bad sides. A wider community is reached, but the transmission of the art may degrade.
Another belief held in China is : The more famous a teacher is , the lesser is his skill.
Which basically means “ Good teachers are hard to find”
Reclusive Taoist hermit-sage who lives in a cave comes to mind.
So if a teacher ( Eastern or Western) can readily be found all over the Internet…….. hmmmm
But the reverse is true when the “teacher” is also a Martial Artist…the more famous they are, probably does mean they are good because in the good old days…they have had killed/ defeated that many enemies to earn that fame.

I am highly suspicious of anyone who after spending a few months or short trips to China to learn some esoteric style from some self declared Chinese master from the mainland…returns to the West and accepts the Master title.
True masters spend a life time learning and honing their skills.
They don’t write books and sell low quality videos of poor audio quality for $60 with cameo screen appearances by their pet dog.
I’m often reminded by the advice given when selecting a Teacher:
1. Check the lineage…it has to be established, clear and verifiable
2. Understand the motivation of the teacher
3. Does he have something to prove ?
4. Is he more Personality than Principle ?
5. What are his student’s attitude like ( those that stay on ) ?
6. Has his skills been tested/ demonstratable ?

I have lived in the East half my life I have witnessed incredible feats of power that defy logic. Empty Power is only one of them.
Remember , we are dealing with Metaphysics, not Physics. Remember Newton’s laws of motion fail when dealing with mass that moves at speeds approaching light speed. Quantum Mechanics takes over, and explains what Newton failed to do.

[nzric]

Soggycat - that's a pretty harsh email from someone who has only been a member for a couple of days. I see that you've only made one post, in regards to this topic, and you're in Sydney. Have you had contact with any of Erle's students or been to any of his workshops to see him yourself?

I'm not accusing you of anything, I'd just like to know why you have such a strong view. You're entitled to your own opinion but, as I said when I started this post, I didn't intend to spread any more rumours about Erle and his teaching so I think I should answer you.

First - whatever your own view about the reality of energies or metaphysics, other people have not had the same experiences or seen the same things you have, and you should understand that a person may need more proof than someone's word about things like a master who can knock you out with a thought.

Erle has said, many times, that if there is a 'master' who can move him with 'empty force' or 'mind power', Erle will bow down and call him master. As far as I know that offer still stands.

Erle has the highest standards of researching his facts - just because he wasn't born into a culture or a lineage doesn't mean he shouldn't be respected for the things he has worked hard to learn. I know a lot of his students, many of whom are well-respected acupuncturists and martial artists in their own right, and they also do a lot of research on his behalf.

Granted, Erle's videos don't come in glossy boxes, and he doesn't wear a silk costume in the videos, but he runs the business literally from his own house. You should focus on the quality of his teaching, not the professionalism of his videos or whether he lets his dog on set.

I have to challenge one of your views though - what is all this about masses approaching the speed of light and quantum physics??! That must be a joke. Nothing you can ever conceive even comes close to the speed of light, or the distances when talking about quantum physics. As any pop scientist will tell you, your body would break down into a jelly WAY before you reached that speed. I've never heard a sonic boom from someone's punch and I don't think I'm likely to (and that's just the speed of sound!).

It sounds like you have some personal grudge against Erle. I respect your right to criticise and have a different point of view, but from what I have heard you don't have much evidence to support your arguments. Yes, Erle has a very direct way of teaching and he is guilty of teaching anything and everything to anyone who asks, but I don't see that as a fault. I think you should complain first about the hippie, new age 'tai chi' teachers (you'll find their flyers at your local vegetarian cafe) - those are the ones who are guilty of distilling the culture.

The reason I put up this post was to find out why he can attract such controversy (your post being an example). Erle is just another guy with another opinion - he'd tell you that himself. Everyone has the right to have an opinion, it's just that he puts his on video and the internet. It's your choice to agree or otherwise.

[soggycat]

Nzric
#
I may have been here a few days, but I am familiar with Earle for alot longer.Yes I did meet some of his students, most are impressed by him, some say he's rather sloppy and not pedantic enough.
But don't we live in a world where many think Mcdonald's taste great ?
Strangely enough, most of the people who heap praise on Earle are Westerners. Ever wonder why?
#
My strong view is a direct reaction to his strong view ( see his article on Empty Power) and anyone else like him.
#
I have no prob with people wanting proof. But before they get it, they should respect and give others the benefit of the doubt and avoid accusing others of fraud. Guilty(of fraud) till proven innocent ? Double standards ?
#
And why should any Empty Force Master have to prove anything to Earle?
Who does he think he is ?
True masters need no such bowing or endorsement because they are already superior.
#
I'm not taking anything away from Earle, but he should be more respectful of other Masters if he is to expect the same respect. If he attacks others, he should expect to be attacked on valid points.
#
Frankly I hate the silk costumes, they obscure movements but at $60per video, we could at least expect better quality. And I like to know why a person from outside Australia can order the same video for 50.

Sub atomic particles are brought close to the speed of light in Particle Acclerators during Nuclear experiments. Think Super Collider project.
http://www.greatguy.com/supercon.htm
Also me thinks you misunderstand what I meant. I was not comparing Metaphysics to Newton and Einsteinian Quantum Mechanics. I wasn't trying to imply that Empty Power occures when the hand is accelerated to light speed . That would be plain silly. I was trying to make the point that from Newton's time late 1500's to late 1800's, Newtonian Physics was the "be all and end all " theory to explain motion. But it failed to explain the motion and behaviour of objects that approach the speed of light. Einstein and colleagues then developed Quantum Mechanics...which suceeded where Netwon failed. Quantum Mechanics accounts for all ranges of motion from slow to Light speed. As another analogy, growing up in the 60's I witnessed the arrogance of Western medicine, that was the be all and end all of the day. Western doctors would crap on Herbalism, Accupuncture, Naturopathy , Yoga , Meditation.......why ? because they didn't stand up to rigourous Western testing standards, and there wasn't reliable "Proof" of their efficacy. They shat on visual evidence that PRC doctors were able to carry out brain surgery without anaesthesia..relying solely on accupunture to stop the pain. They claimed the filmed evidence was a fraud.Today MBF or HCF will give you a rebate for a visit to a registered Acupuncturist. The point is, dont condemn something too quicky just because you dont have the proof ( yet). Keep an open mind . You learn more that way.
#
I'm not complaining about the "new age hippie TaiChi" teachers even if half of them are not as good as they say they are for the reason they dont act like they know it all, and go around knock things they dont understand. It's the presumption that he has all the evidence derived while sitting in Murwillumbah and perhaps visiting Mainland masters once in a while for a crash course.
Have a look at his CV:
http://www.taijiworld.com/Ordering_Information.htm ( middle of page) Chairman of this , President of that.
He says he was tested and conferred by 4 of the Greatest Masters in China. What's wrong with this statement ? Such masters whilst they exist, dont identify themselves...and who are these 4 Greatest masters ? Where's the proof? Is there an Official Document with a seal ?
#
It is possible to state an opinion without denigrating others. Once that starts, expect karma to kick in.

[soggycat]

For more constructive commentary about Empty Power phenomena, please refer to the book by:
BK Frantzis: The Power of Internal Martial Arts Page 19, his encounter with 80 yo Tai Chi/ Pakua master Wang Shu Jin.

U may be aware that Frantzis is an American who learnt Mandarin and spent 20+ years in China learning Internal Martial Arts before returning to USA . His certificates are on display.
To see his Fajing demo try:
http://www.energyarts.com/shared/library/videogallery/index.html

U need to have QuickTime sofyware to view this.

[soggycat]

You are right, Nzric, I did not provide ANY evidence to support my arguments. Because I've nothing to prove to you or anyone who doubt's Empty Power. I merely attempted to challenge Earle's arrogance with logic and reasoning.
I'm merely pointing the way to look at the possibility of Empty Power.
Here's another tip:
Doa Google search for " Empty Force " or Yiquan or Yichuan.
Dont foget to include the " " quotation marks ...it makes difference.
You's find articles on both sides of the argument.

[David]

Originally posted by soggycat
For more constructive commentary about Empty Power phenomena, please refer to the book by:
BK Frantzis: The Power of Internal Martial Arts Page 19, his encounter with 80 yo Tai Chi/ Pakua master Wang Shu Jin.

I don't remember any reference to empty force in that book! Will check p19 later...

I have a book on training Empty Force which paradoxically succeeded in convincing me that no such thing exists. It is said that empty force only works after 'attacker' and 'victim' have built up a relationship. This implies some kind of mindgame.

Anyway, I look forward to reading BKF later.

Rgds,
David

PS AUD60 = UKP20 which is not expensive. In fact, I've never seen a tape cheaper.

[soggycat]

David,
U r right. BK FRantzis never did use the label " Empty Force" but his description of what went on when that Taichi/Bagua master "attacked" him ie. transmitted Qi, during a training combat session leaves no doubt that that is indeed Empty Force. Labels can be misleading.
Like I said before, I'm not here to convince anyone for or against. I'm just saying , keep an open mind investigate the subject yourself and dont rely on "authorities like Earle " to tell you if it's real or not.
Therefore I'm deliberately holding back any (internet & books) evidence I have encountered. People who are serious about this subject, not just a curious onlooker will know what to do.

If I order a typical Martial Art training video from USA or China , it cost AUD$50
From UK , $60. Why should a locally delivered video ( from Earle) also cost me AUD$60, considering he sells it to an American at 50 ?
If I buy the same video from a China town book shop in Sydney , it'll cost me no more than AUD$15...and yes I have many of those.

[nzric]

If you believe in empty force and it helps you with your life, that's fine - but some people need more proof. Maybe it's being stubborn. Yes, hypnotism and acupuncture weren't given the credit they deserved in the beginning, but then again, what about the Cottingley Fairies, phrenology, aura photographs and Nessie? If something doesn't correspond to any known laws of physics, and the so-called masters don't accept constructive criticism or an offer to test the abilities under controlled (or any) circumstances, it's right to call them frauds. Look up James Randi and/or www.skeptic.com.

The placebo effect can cure many illnesses and self-hypnosis is real and effective (see my post on 'how to feel chi'). You can still gain the benefits of these practices without believing the mysticism. That kind of belief is dangerous - right now there are child soldiers in Africa and the Phillipines who have been brainwashed into thinking that some kind of witchcraft makes them bulletproof (see http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_petraitis/simbas-ninjas.shtml for just one story), or what about parents who refuse to take their child to a doctor in the belief that faith in God alone will cure them? It's ok to believe in these things in your own life and in a ma forum, but these beliefs are dangerous and they can, and do ruin lives. For that reason, people have a duty to be sceptical and to denounce the frauds.

As I said, anyone has a right to an opinion. Erle has said if someone can convince him that these things exist, he'll call them master, and I have no doubt that if Erle was convinced, he'd change his writing and promote the ideas of empty force as much as he promotes his other views (so why hasn't anyone taken him up on the offer?). Then again, he's just another guy - of course I look to other sources and look at other points of view, but I'm not convinced of the supernatural. Maybe I'm just stubborn.

It's these teachers who really damage the art. Why is it that you can be an expert in any skill - any sports or any martial art, and if you have something to offer you are respected for your ideas, but if you want to be called a master you have to have all that plus some sort of magical power? The internal arts are amazing skills - why bring in levitation or force fields or invisible punches? the old masters were respected as fighters who trained hard to get the skills they developed. When Yang Lu Chan brought the art from the Chen village and made it popular, he was named 'Invincible' because he won his fights through martial skill. When you say things like 'no westerner can ever understand the internal arts' or speak about 'empty force', it continues the give tai chi the stigma that it has had for years.

What historical art, skill or knowledge do westerners have that an Asian couldn't learn through practice and dedication? Nothing. The principles of the internal arts are rooted in chinese culture and history, but they are predominantly martial arts. They are meant for fighting and defending yourself, and once you are taught the methods (that the old masters discovered), you develop them through rigorous training of your own mind and body. It's strange that you think you can gain this knowledge if you're an old Taoist hermit at the top of a mountain, but not if you're out in a farm in Murwillumbah.

The bottom line is "does it work?" Erle emphasises qigong, chi disruption, acupressure and a host of other things that are contrary to western thinking, he just doesn't believe you can throw a student through a sheet of plywood by concentrating on him for ten minutes. From what I have seen, Erle teaches a very effective internal martial art with clear applications in the real world. As a martial arts teacher, he doesn't claim to be anything else.

[soggycat]

Nzric,
Some people will “scientifically” analyse all photo evidence and still dispute that Man never landed on the moon.
Fairies, Nessie…well who know’s if it’s there ? But I’m not knocking or challenging anyone’s believe.
Whilst I like to see proof, I avoid demanding that they prove it to me.
If I don’t believe in it, I go about my way growing in the things I believe.

I agree about your point on placebo effect. The Chinese Boxer Rebellion of 1900-1 started when Martial Artist were convinced that their Kung Fu could make them impervious to Colonial invader bullets. Cheng Ting Hua died after killing 10 Germans with his sword.
But I allow myself the possibility that Science often ( erroneously) rejects what it cant understand.
Didn’they used to burn people for insisting the world was not flat.
Same for “ witch craft “

U keep saying “Earle has said if someone can convince him….”
Therein lies the real issue.
Empty Force Master have nothing to sell. No 4 day courses, videos or books or a fan club.
They are not persuading you to give them any money .
It is arrogant of Earle to insist that he be convinced before he withdraws his condemnation.
An Eastern skeptic’s view would be rather different.
He’d be less arrogant and perhaps say “ who knows, it may be possible, I like to see more evidence…but he wouldn’t damn anyone else a fraud all over the internet “

No I don’t think you are stubborn.
You’re just trying to be a careful , rational skeptic but view Eastern matters thru “Western glasses”
Because IMA and associated powers were discovered and refined in the East, it would be more conducive for learning if one views thru “ Eastern Glasses”
You draw a line between the physical and the non-physical world .
Therein lies the another Critical issue that hinders Westerners’ comprehension of Eastern insructablity.

Maybe u r not aware that Taoists ( who developed the most of the IMAs) do not separate the physical from metaphysical and spiritual realms?
Therefore Physical Punching, Levitation and “ Invisible Punches”, Dim Mak, Accupuncture , Herbalism, Psychic Phenomena belong to the same skill set.
This is where it is most evident that a Westerner will have immense difficulty grasping the finer aspects of IMA.
Conflict of Philosophies and Perception methods.
Linear versus Circular thinking.
Western science rejects what it cant see, measure, explain or replicate.
Taoist alchemists invented Gunpowder 1000 years ago when most Europeans were still living in nomadic tribes.
( Gunpowder was originally consider Black Magic by all knowing Westerners)
Acupuncture has 4000 year roots, all developed without the dissection of Western Science.
If Western scientific methods were used to research and developed Accupuncture , the art would never have gone very far.
Yet even today, Acupuncture works despite a lack of Western scientific explanations
Recently, archaeologists discovered 2000yo Chinese mummies drenched in mysterious preserving fluid , the bodies were not decayed to the same extent as Egyptian ones.
What secret arts have been developed and lost over time that even the science of today cannot replicate ?
Does it mean it’s a fraud ?


Ever wonder why it's call martial ARTS not martial SCIENCE ?
Many people try to learn it as a science and get frustrated when things aren’t shown according to scientific principles ( Cause- Effect- Evidence - Replicatable Proof)
That's why many Westerners and some Easterners too, will NEVER truly understand IMA. They need to see it thru Eastern eyes before they can proceed to a higher level. For this reason some believe they should go to the source ( or as close as possible) and any learning from a Western teacher will be limited, unless he takes the trouble to 1. learn Chinese ( to grasp untranslatable words) 2. live in the midst of the culture for MANY years 3. think like a Chinese/ Japanese / Indian etc
And that's one reason why Eastern teachers HOLD BACK from explaining to Westerners .... believing it's futile to explain color to a blind man ( or someone who insists his eyes aren't closed when they really are) Yes, they do hold back for other reasons, like in case the student attacked the teacher, the teacher will defeat the student with the ‘held back” technique.
Another point is, you seem to believe that just because a Master's out there , every Tom **** or Mary has the God given right to learn from him and demand proof if it "works" . Whilst that is the basis of an egalitarian and democratic Western society, that wasn't the atmosphere IMA developed in. In China, often one had to be a worthy student and toiled to earn the right to be accepted by a Master. It was more a case of the student convincing the teacher that he is genuine in learning, not the teacher trying to convince the student . Again a big East-West divide. The Martial Arts is not for everyone. Just because one fancies oneself to be a Martial Artist . True Masters had nothing to sell. They had no need to convince that they are real. The only time when they do demonstrate their powers is when they are challenged or threatened…and the result is usually injury or death for one party.

Let me make another controversial point. Ever since Martial Arts was made available to the West, the Art has degraded due to this Weekend student, video , 4 day-summer camp, anyone can learn it - McDonalds Kung Fu mentality . IN the East, the Art is learnt over a life time. Bruce Lee had 7 years of DAILY formal training before he ventured out. Even then he wasn’t an elite fighter…despite what the Public thinks ( Thanks to movies)
I have met several IMA teachers ( Eastern and Western) and they seem to teach a very External form of Pakua / Xing Yi or TaiJi ( Wushu comes to mind). Therein lies the irony. And they will ridicule me if I ask them about applying Chi in fighting. But they are more than happy to discus Chi in the context of Health and Fitness.
But I have also met Masters who emphasis Chi.
In the tradition of doing my bit to protect the transmission of the Art from dilution and degradation, I will not disclose these teachers so readily. They are not hungry for students, they don’t run franchised schools, write books or sell videos. They charge minimal fees, just to make ends meet, they are hardly commercial like Earle or Jim Fung. But if people are serious and worthy student they will hunt them down. When the Student is Ready , the Teacher will appear.
Sounds selfish ? Yeah, but who said Martial Arts is a democracy .

P.S.
If you do a little more research on Yang Lu Chan, u might be pleasantly surprised that there are accounts of him using Empty Force….like many other IMAs of that time. Dong Hai Chuan as well. But again, who knows …a lot is shrouded in time and masked by legend.

[RobP]

I suggest soggycat gives up on bad western science and writes to us on something other than his computer powered by electricity from his comfortable modern home in suburban Sydney.

His views seem to completely ignore the fact that the arts had degenerated in the east long before they got to the west, that China isn't full of stereotypical hermit masters in caves , that the west has its own mystical, religous, martial and occult traditions (as well as its share of frauds and mysterious "hidden teachers").

Saying "I know something you don't but I'm not going to show it to you" is just so typical of the CIMA world. If you really didn't want us to know about it, you wouldn't be posting.

[soggycat]

RobP,
Perhaps u might like to read the origins of this thread before commenting on something you obviously have glossed over before you make thinly veiled sarcatic remarks . It serves no objective purpose nor does it contribute useful information to the debate.
To say that the MAs may have started to decay long before it began is spread to the West may be true, but coming from someone who practises Russian SYSTEMA and no first hand experience at Oriental MartialArts is as credible as an Obese person offering slimming tips. Anyone can be an armchair critic.

My point was not to emphasise "I've something but I wont show you." It was ( if you bothered to read from the start) to address Earle Earle who had claimed by implication that he has the last word on Empty Power, by stipulating that he's wrong because I've got evidence that I refuse to show to just anyone.

[soggycat]

Oooops,my apologies ...if RobP =Rob Poynton then you are experienced with IMA. Can you help me with a few questions ?
In which way is Systema more effective than IMA ?
Does Systema encourage Qi cultivation?
Am I correct to assume that all of your TaiChi teachers ( Caucasian and Chinese) were based in UK ?
Did you spend a few years learning from masters in China?
Did u manage to learn any Chinese?
Was your dissatisfaction in CIMA which lead you to switch to Systema, due to the fact you were did not grasp the highest aspects of IMA or were your Chinese Masters "holding back" the innermost secrets from Westerners ?
Also I'm curious as to why there's an massive interest in IMA in Russia , but not indigenous Systema ? (I chat on ICQ with Russian IMAs regularly.)
Is Systema like Israeli Krav Maga , but the Israelis dont refer to it as a Martial Art, just a fighting technique.
Is it true that Systema, which has a 60year history more effective than other Chinese/Thai/Japanese/Korean Arts that were developed and refined over hundreds of years? Is any aspect of Systema inspired by or borrowed from the more traditional arts ?

[RobP]

To address your last questions first:

Systema is more effective than CIMA all round, IMHO. More efficient training methodology, similar principles but more practical than theory based, field tested, basically the top guys can do all that the top CIMA guys can do and more (except nice forms!)

Systema has "energy" work though not based on TCM. Revolves around breathing, diet, dousing, prayer and other practices.

No, I had teachers from China, the USA, Malaysia.

Didn't train in China

Yes, a little

My dissatisfaction was for a number of reasons. Some teachers may have been "holding back" but I would question what they really have to hold back. As I mentioned, I've seen the equivalent in the System without any holding back. My feeling is for the most part CIMA have a different view of reality than the Russian guys. Different experiences, cultural background, etc.

Systema is a generic term, a bit like kung fu. It's still not all that widely known in Russia (it wasn't that long ago it was reserved for military). Interest in foreign cultures and their arts is not unusual in east or west, sometimes the grass seems greener.

The CIMA work very well on promising something profound and mysterious. That was very strong here in the UK a few years back, when almost everything was explained with "chi power" and stories of incredible feats grew in the telling. Sad to say much of it has, IME, been revealed as hollow. In Russia I guess exposure to CIMA is new, so they are still in the "honeymoon" period.

Systema is different in approach from KM

Aspects of Systema are based on Russian traditions. There are some clips on my site of Russian boxing, staff work, etc. This weekend in London Mikhail Ryabko demo'd work with the sabre. It also has strong roots in the church.

I've not seen any evidence of training methods from the oriental trad arts though I'm sure influence has gone back and forward in the past. According to some sources aikido has a lot to thank the Russians for, but I guess it's all speculation.

Hope that answers your questions!

cheers :)

Rob

[soggycat]

Originally posted by RobP
.......... the arts had degenerated in the east long before they got to the west,

Then would it be correct to say the CIMA teaching available in UK was already waterdown ?
No wonder you were dissatisfied.
No wonder 60year old SYSTEMA is more effective than 800 year old HsingI, 700year old TaiChi and 150year old Pakua.

Morehei Ueshiba who derived Aikido from JuJutsu , spent time in China/Mongolia, learnt some Pakua and upon returning to Japan in 1940's introduced Ki into Aikido , thereby "softening" Aikido into an Internal Art.
Is it any surprise it is the only Japanese IMA?
Aikido and Russian influence ?
:D

I'm quite amused by your reference to PRAYER and CHURCH.
Isn't this even more intangible & unprovable than Chi and Empty Power ? What would Earle have to say about this ?
And wont it go down the same path as Chi as the "flavourof the month" ?
I agree there is a preponderance of claims about Chi feats even now , it just makes it harder to separate the genuine from fraud. It is the main reason I refrain from offering specific evidence of what I said about Empty power. I would be lumped together with all the fraudsters. Why put up with it when I have nothing to prove ? And pray tell , why should I share this elite Killing Art with you or any Tom , D.ic.k or Mary who may use it against me or on innocent people ? God forbid if the CIA or KGB equivalent got their hands on it. I'm not saying I have Empty Power, but in the small class I attend ( not found on the Net,so u neednt bother looking) people have been thrown back several yards by a touch or a stare. I've personally been "paralysed" by a touch . And yes, some of these things are done by senior students, of which I'm not one(yet) . Yes, I'm quite familiar with "Subconscious Compliance" And yes I have degrees in Physics.

A wise teacher once advised me:
"There is no Superior Martial Art
.... Only superior Martial Artists. "
Granted that some styles are easier to learn , are more efficient and usable at 60.

In 1930 Sun Lutang ( Hsing I/Bagua / Sun style TaiChi founder ) was surprised by 6 fit & young Karate experts sent by the Japanese government to assasinate him in Shanghai. He managed to defend himself, although he sustained such serious injuries he died 2 years later. He was 69 .

In 1900, Cheng Ting Hua ( Bagua) killed 10 armed German soldiers before falling to a bullet in the Boxer Rebellion uprising. He was 52.

Is a SYSTEMA practitioner capable of that at those ages ?

[RobP]

I don't see what the age of an art - particularly when it's true age is open to speculation - has to do with anything much. Steam engines are over 100 years old, but would you fit one in your car?

The Chinese mainland stuff I have been exposed to is the same as the UK - some is watered down, some isn't. In fact generally I would say the mainland stuff is more watered down, given political and cultural events there over the last 50 years. Still, maybe there are hidden hermits capable of all sorts - after all, Erle found one...

The akikdo - pakua connection is as disputed as the aikido - systema connection. I heard Uyeshiba was also in Russia.

Why should I be worried about what anyone, has to say about church? I don't know about flavour of the month - it seems to have been moderately popular for the last 2000 years.

Elite killing art? How many people have you killed? Personally I prefer an art that teaches me how to live rather than kill.

As for age - Vladimir is a few years older than me, Kadochnikov is in his 70's and very effective. So the answer is yes.

I've seen people paralysed by a touch a couple of times - once from Yap Cheng Hai, a teacher from Malaysia, other times with Mikhail. I've seen people manipulated without contact plenty of times - all of it psychological, IME, though it wasn't always explained as such.

The difference is I can point to the people who are doing it and say "go and see them". They are people with real life experiences who are willing to share their knowledge for the benefit of others.

Your stories are nice, but they are no more amazing than stories from people who have been in combat situations. Humans have amazing potential in survival situations.

Of course an art only exists through the people who train it. But it comes down to methods, same as anything else. I could teach you to swim in 5 years by starting you off "swimming on dry land", or in less time by giving you a float and putting you in the water, or even less time by just throwing you in. Which do you think would be commercially most popular?

Do you not think the Soviets have not thoroughly investigated all aspects of combat, particularly under Stalin for his own bodyguards?

[nzric]

Soggycat,

You are happy enough to insult other people's styles (Erle's style of taiji and now Systema) and act like an 'I know something you don't know' guru, but what do we know about you? You have been a member here for six days. You have only made ten posts - nine of them have been in this thread and the other one has been directing someone to your comments on this thread. You didn't have any personal information on your profile until yesterday, and now it only includes what is obviously a sarcastic sentence about 'interested to meet other rational skeptics' (which is clearly in relation to my recent www.skeptic.com post, again in this thread).

What do we know about you and why should we identify with your opinion? we know you spent some time in the East where you 'saw some freaky stuff' but that's it - we don't know your style, or even your lineage which you obviously think is more important than proven skill. Personally, I think you are an existing member who has made up the username 'soggycat' specifically for this thread. Everyone else has clear views and is open about who they are and where they came from - if you are going to openly criticise someone, or their style, don't hide behind a false username.

I know that a student has to deserve teaching from a master and I respect the teachers who don't train every tom, d*** and harry, but when you make public demonstrations of so-called 'chi power' by throwing your own students through plywood or waving your hands around and making someone fall over (in a public class, on the internet, in a book, anywhere), you're fair game.

There is no difference between an African witch doctor who sends teenage soldiers out with juju charms, and a Chinese guy who tells a girl that someday she'll be able to stop a rapist with chi magic. Both of them are disregarding people's lives. You seem to have some hangup with the fact that if some one is a. old, b. chinese and c. knows some Lao Tzu quotes, then they are the font of all knowledge. Soggycat - We all respect and honour the old Chinese masters (why do you think we study IMA) but Asia doesn't have a monopoly on martial and/or esoteric knowledge.

IMA is a dangerous art - yes, you need to be careful not to teach acupressure strikes and lethal moves to an idiot student, but in the 21st century, it is much easier to jump a guy using a knife and six mates, or use your car to kill someone than bothering to learn fajing and meridians from a video.

From my past posts you can see that I respect qigong, I believe in the principles of chi as another way of thinking about the body, and I think it is valuable to meditate and cultivate your energy. Faith in something can have an amazing effect, hell, an Aboriginal pointing stick can kill, but it's all in the mind!

Put it this way - if you are attacked on the street and want to use your Jedi chi force against a junkie mugger with a knife, fair enough. If the junkie mugger also believes that you can shoot empty force from your hands and he falls on the ground, fair enough, but I think that any 'master' who recommends any of his students (junior OR senior) actually try that is dangerous and irresponsible.

[soggycat]

nzric,
*I’m happy to insult other people’s style when I am insulted first. It’s self defence.
Don’t know what being a 6 day member has anything to do with credibility. I’m also a seasoned member of an IMA forum www.emptyflower.com
Comment about rational skeptics was not directed at you, sorry if you felt so. My apologies.

*I don’t broadcast my lineage because I have no reason to prove/brag anything to anyone. IMHO, it is a established lineage, but I don’t need anyone else endorse. And why would I bother with multiple user names ? I'm already a member of several forums and have a busy time keeping up.

*I agree, but I never said people I ‘ve seen demonstrate Chi Power techniques , did so in public. You said that. I didn’t.
Equally, when Earle condemns Empty Power en masse , he’s also fair game to counter criticism.

**Empty Power isnt for everyone. So I agree, you cant tell a girl she can stop a rapist with Empty Power. It’s not that easy. It takes 10+ years .

*No, you misunderstand me. One doesn’t have to be “old, chinese and quote Lao Tzu” to be an authority on IMA . I’m sorry if I gave you that impression. I’ve very high regard for BK Frantzis, Tim Cartmell, Robert W. Smith, John Bracy, Howard Reid , Stuart Alve Olson, Robb Whitewood ( Aussie Hsing I teacher in Hurstville)….amongst many others.
All these IMA/Qigong Westerners are committed enough to spend years ( not weeks ) in China , many if not all have learnt Mandarin and definitely can quote the Tao Te Ching. Not only would I learn from them, I’d recommend even Chinese students to study under them.
*China, Japan, Korea, Thailand, Philipines and Indonesia ( Silat) do jointly have a monopoly on Martial Arts just like France has a monopoly on Fine Wines ( debatable), Russians on Caviar, USA on High Tech., Japan on Consumer Electronics, Switzerland on watches, Germany on robust cars, Italy on Pasta, English on Humorous wit, India on Yoga and Australia on Cricket.
Get the point?

Let me illustrate.

Consider this.
#If I wanted a PHD in English literature, do you think I would get better education at University of Beijing , than say Oxford ?
And shd I bother to learn the local language , English, first ?

#If I wanted to study Yoga to a high level would it be better to learn it from in Shanghai than say Bangalore ?
And should I bother to learn the Hindi first?

#If I wanted take a PHD in Aerodynamics , should I do it M.I.T (USA) or University of Hong Kong ?
And should I learn the local language English first

# If I wanted to study the finest points of Ballet , should I enrol in Tokyo or with the Russian Bolshoi ?
Should I learn Russian first ?

So wouldn't it be better to go as close to the source ?

Put this way, it becomes obvious how ethnocentric SOME Westerners are …without realising it.

*In China, Dim Mak is taught only to students who have reached a very high level of attainment in MA. The teacher is very careful about whom he teaches for fear of abuse, because while it had it’s roots in TCM, it can heal and kill. Contrast this with Earle who has chosen to dessiminate it openly in books ( several) , videos and 4 day course. He has contributed to the dilution and cheapening of the art , expecting that one can pick up Dim Mak so easily. Soon we’ll have all kinds of people calling themselves “Dim Mark Practitioners” . And when he “passes” on that art to his “students” in some other 4day course.. can you imagine how much more it would have degraded. Like several generations of a photocopy.
Yes I did meet one Sydney Westerner who was going to teach me Dim Mak over a weekend course…not one of Earle’s students.


*Mr Nzric, I have no issue with you, just Earle.
I like what you said in your feeling Chi post, I’m surprised that you don’t realise that if you can do that ( feel the Chi from a distance), you’re on the first step to Projecting it ( Empty Power)
Good Luck !

[nzric]

Other places in the world have a rich history of martial arts - look at Greco-Roman wrestling, the fencing schools of Europe, the specialised weapons of many indigenous people and the combat arts of many of the world's soldiers. Yes, there has been, historically, more study and research into the arts in many parts of Asia, but this contribution is just one aspect in the field of martial and physical training. It's wrong to dismiss other cultural and martial history with a wave and say you can only learn anything of value by studying Chinese arts.

As for my views on chi - as I have said in other posts, it is a useful way of looking at how energy/force travels through the body. There is a big difference between feeling what seems to be your own chi and making others feel it. It's possible to hypnotise someone so they happily eat an onion like it's an apple, but it doesn't mean you've changed the onion - you have used psychology, it's all psychology. The reason things like chi disruption work is because they work on the opponent's instinctive reflexes, it's easy to explain them without resorting to the supernatural.

"I’m also a seasoned member of an IMA forum www.emptyflower.com <http://www.emptyflower.com>"

It's funny, I can't seem to find a 'soggycat' in the emptyforce.com members list. I'm just saying the fact that someone very recently opens a blank account and only uses it to launch a tirade against Erle in a single thread is pretty suspicious.

You also have no qualms about hassling other teachers/arts, while when someone asks about your own art or even your own background, you get defensive and say you have nothing to prove. It's clear you know something about IMA and you know some names of teachers, but if you are going to criticise someone, or a teacher, you should be able to identify why you think you're qualified to make any judgement.

I've never said that Erle has all the answers - just look at my other posts, I'm the first person to say you should look around and see what is right for you and blend your knowledge from other places. But look at who is actually damaging the lineage and the culture. Look in any women's magazine and you'll find courses that advertise tai chi as a soft, gentle art that was never designed to hurt anyone (yep, you've got a right to only learn tai chi for health, but these people even get the qigong wrong). And look at the back of any martial arts magazine and you'll find a load of videos of old guys in silk pyjamas who point at their students and make them fall over. THESE are the ones Erle criticises - the sellout ones who turn qigong and the internal arts into a sideshow. I couldn't care less if you train and believe that some day you will be able to defend yourself with a forcefield, but when a teacher tries to make money out of it and sells himself as a guru, that's when it's dangerous. Why have so much venom against Erle, who just has his own opinion (and openly respects and promotes all other aspects of the internal arts), and not against these other 'masters' who make a mockery of the beliefs that you hold?

[Kat]

This has turned into a petty heavy thread.
SC
Obviously you have a thing against Earle but I think if you would find that much of what he teachs is found within Chinese IMA(within Mainland China) and he teachs it with his own interpretation.This is traditionally what IMA people did,and how MA in general gets the different styles.If your methods are different,then this simply means that your methods are different.As to "Empty Force" why not just stay in the here and now,metapshyics is best left to self reflective moments.Facts are there are countless styles/interpretation of IMA available,as for dilution,well IMHO as soon as one generation passes from the originator, the styles probally becomes diluted.

Nzric
"Personally, I think you are an existing member who has made up the username 'soggycat' specifically for this thread."

I am guessing that you think SC is me,(I could be wrong)although I don't know why,as these topic's are very different from my posts(re: Kong Jin) plus I make sure I use stardard PinYin when expressing Chinese Words.Anyhoo its not me,and while I agree with the need for Socieo Cultural study with IMA,I don't share SC veiws on Earle or Kong Jin.But like I said Sydney has a lot of IMA people, highlighting the diversity of styles and attitudes towards what is generally considered a small sector of MA

[soggycat]

RobP
*The age of an art has lots to do with credibility and efficacy. Old Arts stood the test of time, techniques corrected and refined over the years thru actual not classroom combat.
If a system was any less effective, it would have been abandoned or refined long ago. The modern V6 gasoline engine was built on technology that started with the steam engine in 1800’s. If one claims Systema is 60 years old, then it is reasonable to assume that it only had 60 years duration of refinement.
Of course Stalin is a smart dude and would insisted on the best training for his body guards. I’d think he’d be smart enough not to reinvent the wheel …original Systema developers probably borrowed a lot of technique from the East , but will not admit this a matter of national pride. According to your sources, Ueshiba was in Russia, but which way did the knowledge flow? Are you so sure the Russians didn’t learn something from him and repackaged it as their own. It is just incredulous that out of nowhere except from the ranks Stalin’s bodyguards did a new martial art more formidable than other well establish ones suddenly burst forth onto the martial arena. And that none of it was borrowed or inspired by arts that have been available to the Russians for the last 700 years since the Mongolians conquered Moscow.
Hmmmm… you are aware President Vladimir Putin holds a Black Belt in Judo.
Don’t recall him having any Systema background.
Wasn’t he the head of the KGB once ?
Maybe he’s hiding stuff.
Even the clever Japanese will admit that ALL Japanese arts originated from China, before evolving into it’s many variants today.

*It’s amazing for one to comment about how MA has decayed in China when one has never set foot in China. Is it a bit like an Aussie commenting on the British weather when he's never been there ?

*I have nothing against the Church, I’m Protestant. But my issue here is when Systema relies on Prayer and Church…doesn’t that bring the whole issue into the same arena as the “intangible Empty Force” debate.

*All real Martials Arts are killing arts, if it doesn’t have the potential to kill, then it’s not a Martial Art. It has degraded into a sport or a performance art like Wushu ( a watered down version of MA thanks to the Chinese Government). Anyone with knowledge of history of Martial Arts is aware MA was developed out of a dire need for survival, and to survive, one must often defeat/hurt or kill the enemy. When MA went to the West it turned into a Sport. That’s is happening in the East as well. Sad.
Whilst it is still good as sport, any Sports oriented “Martial Artist” will be in serious danger when faced with a life or death situation. In the street there are no rules. A young big colleague with a Blue belt in Tae Kwondo got bashed by 3 teenagers. He said his teacher didn’t correct his form and simply promoted him as long as he did all the ‘kata’ right. He gave up on MA after that. Not his fault. Slack teacher’s fault.

*And are you aware there has been a lot of “ technology transfer” between Russia and China ( because they were communist brothers in the 1950’s)in areas of Chi and Psychic research ? You’ll find heaps of articles on the internet. So does Mikhail have Empty Power skills ( even if he doesnt call it that)

I agree, some “ Chi feats of power “ are based on Auto suggestion.
But not all of them.
Auto Suggestion/Hypnosis doesn’t explain why people go into trances then pass several metal rods through the arms, cheeks without pain or bleeding, walk on burning coal ( not a brisk walk…but slow sustained walk) or Yogis who instantly heal cuts on their palms. If you haven’t seen them, I have.

[soggycat]

I don’t know why this is not getting thru.
I’m attacking Earle only because he has attacked ALL Empty Force people , dismissing all as charlatans.
By implication , that suggest he’s an Authority.
I’m challenging that ‘ authority” by exposing how he has watered down the IMA thru his indiscriminate , blatantly obvious money making training products.

I’m not attacking other Macdonalds teachers because they have not been so openly chauvinistic about their views on Empty Power

[soggycat]

Kat,
I 've always respected your postings...sensible, well balanced ,circumspect, even tempered and informative !

Peace brother !

[soggycat]

Originally posted by nzric
Soggycat,

....You are happy enough to insult other people's styles (Erle's style of taiji and now Systema) and ....

CLARIFICATION:
I have never insulted Erle's TaiChi.
Please check the entire thread.
But I attack Erle's marketing methods, his claim to being a Master after a few short visits to China and not belonging to "established lineage" and his contribution to cheapening IMA by offering 4 day course of what normally needs years of training, and his know-it-all attitude on Empty Power.

I have brought Systema to task , because RobP ( ex TaiChi ) has initially claimed that Systema practioner can beat even the best IMA . He made reference that Systema is superior to IMA and that Systema was completely Russian in origin.

I've said before , and say it again:

" There is no superior Martial Art,
...only superior Martial Artists "



Also Nzric,
True, Europe has a fine tradition of fencing, Greece has Pankration, Brazil Capoeira etc.
But are you saying that the best Pizza in the world is available in Balmain not Italy ?
Is the Chinese food more Authentic in Haymarket or Hong Kong.
( some Westerners can't tell )
:(
That English spoken in Wollongong is as good as in Oxford ?

[RobP]

Systema 60years old? That's your claim not mine. Read my post again. Systema draws on traditional Russian fighting arts that go back hundreds of years. Russia has something like 30+ ethnic groups, many of them with their own systems. I wouldn't dispute outside influence, but that influence travels both ways. Do you think that Chinese and Japanese arts are purely Chinese and Japanese? Wasn't Shaolin from India?

The age of an art has to do with how it is promoted, nothing else. Tai chi is so popular today for a couple of reasons - first, it became popular with the upper classes in Yang Luchan's time. Second it became popular as a health exercise and "cultural treasure" during the 1920's.

Given the Chinese propensity for exalting the old, innovation is not one of their strong points. Preserving traditions is one of their strong points.

Putin has closer associations with Systema than you may think.

I've never set foot in China, but I have trained with a number of leading mainland teachers. Chen Xiao Wang, Ji Jian Cheng to name a couple. Why should they be any better than someone from Malaysia or SIngapore? You know what happened in the Cultural Revolution?

I recently spoke to a Chinese guy who is making a documentary for Discovery. He'd been all round the world looking at martial arts. His view - China was not the place to go unless you were interested in form training. I'm sure he didn't see everyone in China but I think he is generally right. And if there are hermits hiding in caves who can kill someone by looking at them - then a) how would I ever find them and b) why would they teach me? So what would be the point in setting foot in China?

Martial arts has been a sport in the east for a long time, there have been competitions at least as far back as the 1920's.

The best pizza in the world is probably in America. Perhaps you can point me to something concrete to back up the claim that the best martial arts are in China.

It's not just a case of "repackaging", the training methods and approach in Systema are very different from the CIMA. Now, if the Russians said "OK, learn this form with a Russian name", then fair enough. But that's not how it works.

You just seem put out that someone would dare suggest that CIMA is not the be-all and end-all of martial arts and that the Chinese are not the master race. Listen, if you are happy with your Chinese arts, then fine. But you asked me the questions - if you don't like the answers then don't ask.

[soggycat]

Originally posted by RobP
Systema draws on traditional Russian fighting arts that go back hundreds of years. ........I wouldn't dispute outside influence, but that influence travels both ways. ....... Wasn't Shaolin from India?
You said Systema grew in Stalin's ranks.
Wasn't that approx 60 years ago?
Now you say dont dispute outside influence, when your website claims otherwise.
Maybe you should update your website.



Shaolin was not from India.
Buddhist monk Boddhirama brought Zen Buddhism over to China in 654 AD and taught the monks some excercises which were later incorporated into existing indigeneous Martial Arts. To say he brought Shaolin fighting to China is a common myth. It implies that no one was fighting with Martial Arts before then. Historical drawings prove otherwise. If it did come from India, pray tell how many Martial Arts are there in India of some repute today ? Besides Kalari Piyatu . Taoism predates Buddhism by 1500 years. The Taoists already had their own IMA long before Shaolin made an appearance.
You seem to be familiar with Pop history only.

Originally posted by RobP

The age of an art has to do with how it is promoted, nothing elseGiven the Chinese propensity for exalting the old, innovation is not one of their strong points. Preserving traditions is one of their strong points.
So WingChun wasn't innovated by a woman , from less effective Shaolin styles.

Northern Praying Mantis wasn't developed to defeat Lohan Boxing

Chinese food magically appeared with no innovations

Your statement sounds archaic and racist.

Originally posted by RobP


Putin has closer associations with Systema than you may think.

Please provide proof if you are to be believed. Or are you going to do what u accused me of " I have proof but won't show you". That may be the case given the sensitive nature of the person, in which case then you know where I'm coming from.


Originally posted by RobP

I've never set foot in China, but I have trained with a number of leading mainland teachers. ....You know what happened in the Cultural Revolution?

The teachers went underground. One of my teachers is one such person.

Originally posted by RobP

I recently spoke to a Chinese guy who is making a documentary for Discovery. He'd been all round the world looking at martial arts. His view - China was not the place to go unless you were interested in form training. .............So what would be the point in setting foot in China?

A documentary maker is now an authority on Martial Arts training ?

Ever cross your mind maybe he could find a good master because they weren't interested in proving anything to him or mass publicity.
Setting foot in China will at least raise your crebility a little more than remote commentary.

Originally posted by RobP

Martial arts has been a sport in the east for a long time, there have been competitions at least as far back as the 1920's.

Yes I agree, but the rules then permitted injury and/or death.
Not so different fromn a European Duel. It was legal then.
Did you not know ?


Originally posted by RobP

The best pizza in the world is probably in America. Perhaps you can point me to something concrete to back up the claim that the best martial arts are in China.

I'm not going to answer this one if you insist on America .

BTW when did I say the Best Martial Arts are in China?

I merely scoffed at your claim that Systema was superior to Chinese IMA.


Originally posted by RobP


You just seem put out that someone would dare suggest that CIMA is not the be-all and end-all of martial arts and that the Chinese are not the master race.

Actually no, you thought SYSTEMA was the Be all end all Martial Arts.

Like I said before, ther is no such thing as a Superior Martial Art.

Originally posted by RobP

Listen, if you are happy with your Chinese arts, then fine. But you asked me the questions - if you don't like the answers then don't ask.
I ask questions to understand your position so I can counterattack . After all it was you who attacked me first. Dont they teach you tactics like that in Systema ?

[RobP]

"You said Systema grew in Stalin's ranks.
Wasn't that approx 60 years ago?"

Yes, and it grew out of trad arts as I said before.

"If it did come from India, pray tell how many Martial Arts are there in India of some repute today ? Besides Kalari Piyatu"

Well there aren't any famous ones of repute today because the teachers are all hidden.

"So WingChun wasn't innovated by a woman , from less effective Shaolin styles."

Some would dipsute that "fact"

"Northern Praying Mantis wasn't developed to defeat Lohan Boxing"

OK, so what have the Chinese developed to defeat non-Chinese arts?

"Please provide proof if you are to be believed."

Off the top of my head the following link has video footage of an interview with the Russian Minister of Justice.

http://system-chicago.com/movies.htm

Less able to show - the letters and documents in Mikhail Ryabko's house.

"A documentary maker is now an authority on Martial Arts training ?"

As much of an authority as you. At least we know this guy has been where he says he has.

"Ever cross your mind maybe he could find a good master because they weren't interested in proving anything to him or mass publicity.
Setting foot in China will at least raise your crebility a little more than remote commentary."

How will setting foot in China do that if all the best masters are underground?

"BTW when did I say the Best Martial Arts are in China?"

All along I thought

"Yes I agree, but the rules then permitted injury"

So does boxing

"I merely scoffed at your claim that Systema was superior to Chinese IMA."

Based on what experience?

"I ask questions to understand your position so I can counterattack "

Exactly, you are not interested in genuine answers, just in prolonging an argument.

[soggycat]

RobP

SC: "If it did come from India, pray tell how many Martial Arts are there in India of some repute today ? Besides Kalari Piyatu"
RobP: Well there aren't any famous ones of repute today because the teachers are all hidden.
SC: Oh yeah , a flippant response when you run out of logic.

SC: "So WingChun wasn't innovated by a woman , from less effective Shaolin styles ?"
RobP: Some would dipsute that "fact"
SC: Who cares if it’s a woman or man, the point was the Chinese did innovate. So u are wrong

SC: "Wasn’t Northern Praying Mantis developed to defeat Lohan Boxing"
RobP: OK, so what have the Chinese developed to defeat non-Chinese arts?
SC: Nothing, there isn’t any need to (yet).

SC: "Please provide proof if you are to be believed ( that President Putin learnt Systema)."
RobP: Off the top of my head the following link has video footage of an interview with the Russian Minister of Justice.
SC: Your link is interesting, but nowhere does it show President Putin , ex-KGB head had any SYSTEMA training.
U didnt answer my original question.

Your video links are of course impressive to the newcomer.
But these are pretty standard IMA “ Iron Shirt “ techniques one can learn for $70ph in Sydney.
The 2 Masters ( notice one’s not Chinese) are not in hiding.
Their skills have been tested and verified to the extent a local rugby team has signed up en masse.
At least these guys don’t pretend it didn’t come from CIMA
http://www.invisiblemaster.com/
http://www.yangmian.com/courses.asp?#SteelHand
http://www.yangmian.com/courses.asp?#SteelBody


SC: "A documentary maker is now an authority on MA training in China ?"
RobP: As much of an authority as you.
SC: Again another flippant response devoid of logic and substance.



RobP: How will setting foot in China do that if all the best masters are underground?
SC: But that wasn’t the point. U claimed he said one couldn’t learn real MA in China except forms.
He should have said that he was unable to locate real Masters who were willing to publicly display their skills on camera.

SC: "BTW when did I say the Best Martial Arts are in China?"
RobP: All along I thought

SC: No you misunderstood.
I’m sorry if I mislead u.
I have been saying:
The best CHINESE MA are in China.
The best JAPANESE MA are in Japan
The best Yoga is in India
The Best ballet is in Russia
The best Pizza is in Italy
The best Cricket is in Australia

SC: "Yes I agree, but the rules then permitted injury and death"
RobP: So does boxing
SC: Again you deliberately missed the point.
Boxing rules didn’t allow death, Chinese MA competitions were often a fight to the death like a European duel.

SC: "I merely scoffed at your claim that Systema was superior to Chinese IMA."
RobP: Based on what experience?
SC: And I ask of you the same.
Was it because Mikhail overpowered u with relative ease despite your supreme TaiChi skills ?
Is it possible there was nothing inferior about TaiChi, maybe u had a teacher who didn’t teach u everything, or maybe u just didnt master TaiChi as well as u hoped ? Or maybe your Masters weren’t as skilled as they said ?

Karate legend Mas Oyama was defeated by only one person.
A frail old TaiChi master. Check it out in Google yourself.


SC: "I ask questions to understand your position so I can counterattack "
RobP: Exactly, you are not interested in genuine answers, just in prolonging an argument.
SC: We are Martial Artist aren’t we ?
Unlike you, my responses are based on logic and reasoning.
No humorous flippant derogatory thinly veiled racist answers or selective responses.
Wit is an English forte, being Aussie, it is not mine.
Humorous wit is often Britain’s most effective self defence masking a graceful retreat.
Your arguments don’t stand up to a counterattack.

[Andy Murray]

In summary Earle's a pretty clever guy.

The controversy seems to be between those who don't understand his viewpoint, and those who do?

Supported of course by the odd statement by someone else.

Have to say, this is the most intelligently discussed nonsense there has ever been on the forum, pray, carry on. :D

[soggycat]

Andy,
Yeah , he is a good teacher from what I hear, but also clever as in Marketing Strategy and selling Videos with low audio quality at $60 to a local Aussie, but $50 to an American . And charging the same price for Video and DVD.

If he say's he's got a certain lineage, he should display the proof on his website...like Certificates etc. Until such time this controversy about him and Yang style will persist.

BK Frantzis did so and all relevant lineage holder titles he has are on public display.

Earle also lays claim to exclusive "Westerner Access" to esoteric styles like " Little Nine Heavens" a little known IMA that deal with Qi Disruption

[Andy Murray]

Hi Soggycat,

you seem to dislike Earle.

Is that fair?

You haven't trained under him, but you seem to be judging him on things that may just be being done in his name?

I believe he's now moved over to Wales in the UK, so maybe BK Frantzis can get on with MA and ignore the politics we all despise so much?

[soggycat]

Hello Andy,
Nah, don’t dislike or like Earle.
Jus don’t like his know-it-all arrogance about Kong Jing / Empty Power.
Just don’t like his methods which IMHO are cheapening IMA…by McDonaldlising it
Learn Dim Mak in a 4 day camp ?
Hah !
Later on when people try to use Dim Mak techniques and it doesn’t work, they erroneously conclude IMA is c.rap.
Eg. Rob P

Hey the thread was originally asking for contributions as to why there’s an Earle controversy .
I ‘m just contributing, saying aloud what many people only dare think.
I might have digressed when RobP entered the fray.

[Andy Murray]

There's no problem soggycat, we all have our crosses to bear.

The Mc Dojo aspects you cast at Earle are not things I've heard peronally, but then, like yourself I don't train with the guy.

If you take a look at RobP's website, you'll soon gather what his issues are, right or wrong!

[soggycat]

Andy,
I've seen Earle's videos, and spoken with his students first hand.
Yeah, they like him, but also say he is sloppy and not pedantic enough.
AS for RobP, as much as I gather from his website/ arguments, he was "defeated" by a Systema person, and switched as a result....blaming TaiChi , not the teacher or the student.
An expectable consequence of learning it McDonald's style and contributes to the generational deteoriation I spoke of.

[Andy Murray]

Pretty harsh interpretation soggycat.

Hope you can handle the inevitable return.

McDonalds comment isn't fair though, we're comparing people with way more acumen than that?

[soggycat]

Originally posted by Andy Murray


McDonalds comment isn't fair though, we're comparing people with way more acumen than that?

People with " more acumen" are wise enough not to make comments like "SYSTEMA is more effective than IMA ".

You might notice nowhere have I claimed IMA is superior to any other style , old or new.
But I also suggested that Systema borrowed a lot of IMA techniques without acknowledging so.
RobP's wesite, claims Systema was Russian entirely and had no external influence. He has since somewhat softened his position. If you look at the world map , you'd notice Russia and China share a long border. To say Russians did not learn from Chinese IMA influence, especially when Kublai Khan marched right up to Moscow in 1300's is as absurd as saying China's current Space technology was developed independently of West help...which is the B.ull that the current Chinese government is trying to propagate. Half their scientist probably have US degrees.

[nzric]

Kat - I don't think you are soggycat, sorry to give that impression. I've talked to you in many posts and know your views on things, I also respect them a lot and I know you have a very different view of Erle than soggycat. I was just forwarding a theory that I thought (/think) soggycat's user profile was suspicious. If he proves he is a normal user I will be wrong
and of course we'll welcome him into the forum, but so far he hasn't given any evidence that he is who he says he is (or has the expertise he claims).

Soggycat, I hope you understand my reservations - all sorts of people join forums, from young kids with a ninja fixation (nothing against ninjas...) and too much time, to professional bodyguards and full-time teachers. Of course any facts you give about IMA stand on their own and it doesn't matter what your background is, but when you say you've "been to Asia" and "seen some chi demonstrations" and that you learn from a "true master" (or something close to) so we should take your views on faith, that's when you need to qualify yourself.

Also, like I said - I respect the fact that people have different views and some people like a different method of teaching from Erle's style (which, granted, is very casual and open - but I don't think it's 'McDonalds'), but when I started this post I said I don't want to play any part in supporting or continuing rumours about him so I have felt a duty to defend him. I'm not saying he's the greatest or that we should start an Erle fanclub, I was just trying to find out how he is viewed by others (insert pic of can of worms). But although I have my own criticisms of his teaching, I happen to agree with him on the chi topic and it's something I also have a strong opinion about...

Chinese MA doesn't have a monopoly on energy generation. While China may have officially studied the art of chi cultivation more than other nations, there has been a long history of magic and supernatural energy arts all over the world. But somehow it is seen as normal and right for anyone to criticise African witch doctors with their 'juju' magic who send teenagers off to war in the Congo, but when the person is Chinese and claims to practice IMA, somehow he is untouchable (oh, and the Africans have had about ten million more years of practice and refinement in these arts than the Chinese). They are both just as dangerous and
they preach exactly the same thing - that a series of charms and rituals will protect you or let you call on some kind of energy/force to defeat your enemies. To say someone is being an 'ignorant Westerner' about this is the same as saying someone is an 'ignorant Westerner' when they object to the fact that right now African kids are wearing hosepipes and bath plugs into war because they think that will stop bullets (see the link in my previous post). Btw - the old IMA masters traditionally thought qigong and chi could stop bullets - did that 'empty force' help
them against the British?

Most people don't realise the actual potential of the human body when it comes to strength, coordination and health - that's why we practice ma (and especially ima and qigong). I feel that to resort to supernatural explanations just cheapens what can be clearly explained naturally.

When I have kids and I start teaching them ima, I'll sleep better at night knowing that if they are in danger they will rely on skill and fitness to get out of the situation rather than trying to shoot energy beams.

Also, I'm glad you think Erle is a good teacher (setting aside his views on empty force). That's the information I've been looking for when I started the thread.

[RobP]

It's become a standard retort from taiji people who can't believe my "conversion" to another style that obviously any tai chi I learnt or any masters I trained with were not the "real" ones. Yet they are, for themost part, the same masters that people extoll the virtues of, whether from the UK, China, or anywhere else in the world.

My conversion was not the result of a single "deafeat" - there are plenty of people who can do that to me - but a long considered step not taken lightly.

It seems that some people have an issue with Systema, for me, being a more effective approach than the CIMA. I can only repeat my opinion based on my experiences. When you have some experience of Mikhailk or Vladimir report back and let us know.

The issue of "borrowing" IMA methods is not true, as I also previously mentioned. The two training methods and approaches are quite different. For one thing CIMA are based around dan tien movement, non-existent in RMA. Or perhaps people who have never trained in Systema can tell us something different?

Some people seem to have a hard time grasping the fact that there were many fighting arts existent in Russia. As is rightly pointed out, cultures do influence each other, though influence is a two way street.

"Their skills have been tested and verified to the extent a local rugby team has signed up en masse."

A local rugby team? Good for them.

"Your video links are of course impressive to the newcomer.
But these are pretty standard IMA “ Iron Shirt “ techniques one can learn for $70ph in Sydney."

You miss the point again. Different training methods. The Russian ones don't involve beating yourself with wood, meditation or slapping sandbags. But then you wouldn't know that because you have no direct experience of RMA.

[soggycat]

RobP:
Some people leave one MA for another "superior" one blaming either the "inferior" art or "inferior" teacher. Rarely do they admit they were just not able to master it. If u had said Systema suited you better on the basis of age/size/build/natural abilities or weaknesses , I'd probably agree with you. But instead, you blamed everything except yourself.

A carpenter and his tools?


RobP:
It seems some people have an issue with Systema, for me, being a more effective approach than the CIMA. I can only repeat my opinion based on my experiences. When you have some experience of Mikhailk or Vladimir report back and let us know.

SC:
So how many people has he killed or neutralised whilst at Spetnaz? Weren't you insisting on proof earlier ?

RobP:
The issue of "borrowing" IMA methods is not true, as I previously mentioned. For one thing CIMA are based around dan tien movement, non-existent in Systema . Or perhaps people who have never trained in Systema can tell us something different?

SC:
Errr..... , not all IMA focus on the Dantien. They make reference on storing Chi there, but not all IMAs require one to move from the Dantien. YiQuan is one such. In Empty Power, there's often NO MOVEMENT at all, the defender basically lets the attacker make contact before Zap KaPow !


RobP:
Some people seem to have a hard time grasping the fact that there were many fighting arts existent in Russia. As is rightly pointed out, cultures do influence each other, though influence is a two way street.

SC:
Everybody was fighting through out history. No one denies Russia has it's own MA. But to deny ,as in your Website, complete external influence smacks of bias and absurdity. China shares a border with Russia stretching thousands of miles . Much cultural and commercial intercourse took place since Mongols conquered Moscow in 1300s. Are you aware an entire villlage of 4000 year old Blond mummies was recently discovered in the Xinjiang area ( far west of China, near Russian border). Doesn't this suggest Russians and Chinese were in closer contact a lot earlier than we know ? Dont take my word, check this on Google yourself. Of course knowledge can flow both ways. But given the documented preponderance of Chinese Martial Art styles and its sophistication , it is resonable to assume knowledge flowed predominantly from China to Russia.

2ndly, if Systema was purely Russian and based on hundreds of years of fighting, why are we hearing about it only recently ? Why didnt it proliferate like Karate or Kung Fu? Good things tend not to need advertising...they spread by word of mouth rather swiftly.


3rdly, Dont Soviets have habit of laying claim to " We were there first"...There are numerous stories about some Popov invented the telephone before Alexander Graham Bell or Nikolai Tesla ? They just cant stand it if the Yanks got there first etc etc

4thly Why is CIMA more popular in Russia than Systema? Your argument that it 's honeymooning there because of its exotic status is not convincing. Chinese, by your argument will find Systema exotically attractive, yet there's no flowering of Systema in China.

5thly At least Israeli Krav Maga doesnt hide behind "hundreds of years of fighting history", it has a specific founder and a specific age. If Systema was better than the rest, I'd think the Mossad would have replaced Krav Maga .

6thly
Systema grew out of the ranks of the Spetnaz closely associated with ex-KGB, off course we are to accept as gospel what a Spy Agency says about Systema's origins. Wow, it's like expecting the CIA or MI6 to tell the truth .

RobP:
The Russian MA don't involve beating yourself with wood, meditation or slapping sandbags.

Think u missed the point, self beating isnt the training, it's the result of training to withstand it.

You might notice they are still standing, not grimacing or bleeding and ready to take more.

[RobP]

Yep, whatever, guess you are right.

[soggycat]

Nope. It's not that I'm right or wrong.
I just had a better argument.
And endurance.
If you ridicule others , expect the same.

[khafra]

Obviously some unbelievably wealthy eccentric type needs to kidnap all the world's top MAs, the style heads--Vladimir, the Gracies, Erle, Masaaki Hatsumi, Chen, Yang, Sun style heads, and everyone else I neglected to mention, and make them fight in a secret no-rules tournament.

Hundreds of bad martial arts movie plots just got a whole lot more plausible to me.

[KenpoDavid]

I will bring it up to Warren Buffet next time we are in line at the grocery store together... maybe he and Bill are tired of Bridge by now.

[nzric]

Nup, it's not "my [secret deadly style handed down from this list right here of the last 104 generations] can beat your [unknown art given to me by a shady-looking little guy on the top of misty mountain]'. We should be able to be down-to-earth and say whoever your teacher is, some of their ideas are amazing and some of them are just pretty average, or wrong.

And if we have this all-master freestyle cage match I reckon my dad would win cause he can beat up your dad. Oops, I mean master.

[Sub zero]

So..........................whens earl moving to wales?

I don't practice tai chi but i practice lau gar and hung gar kung fu and Ju jitsu. Just think it would be very interesting to attend a workshop/seminar with him

[nzric]

http://www.taijiworld.com/Workshops/mini2001.htm

[Syd]

G'day all

I've just waded through four pages, well skimmed some of the more superfluous posts, but felt I might be in a position to shed some light on the Erle controversy.

Up until recently I studied in Sydney under a gentleman named Keith Brown who I believe is the highest graded intructor in the WTBA/Fajinquan system in Australia. I have not trained with Erle himself but I have had heavy e-mail traffic with him over a period of two or more years, on and off.

Firstly I will say that I practised the YCF 1st long form (there were three apparently) and the Old Yang Lu-Chan form as well as Long Har Chuan, Push Hands, Short Stick and Broadsword forms, not to mention the small San Sau and various other application and training techniques in classes 3 times a week when I was living in Sydney's inner city. I trained with fellow students and regulars who stayed the course and all were human beings who had flaws like anyone else, including myself.

However, what I learned in class was a combat efficient Taijiquan which had an equal emphasis on the importance of developing the internals through Qigong (namely 3 circle standing and triple warmer Qigongs) and using the long YCF form as a larger, lengthier and longer Qigong for health, Qi cultivation and opening the joints.

We would then move into various kinds of contact sparring such as push hands, double push hands (which we were taught as strikes!) Long Har Chuan and one step drills and applications of the form through various entry points and techniques. I would regulalry walk into training and find Keith and Roger going hammer and tongs with Large San Sau and when we went through applications I always felt the power of designated strikes with a pulled shot... you can FEEL what the end result of certain all out strikes will be like and all were devastating! This is what Erle teaches and thats what Keith taught us.

So if you ask me, having trained in this system what I think of it? I think it's the greatest fighting art ever created. This is not blind devotion to Erle because I don't train with Erle. What I do is train now on my own, with a partner from time to time and work from Erles excellent video's which are totally content based and not at all about the glossy wrapper and the Mc'martial arts marketing devices that Soggycat seems to branding him with... infact it's a complete antithesis of what Erles about. Erle's style is not slick as he himself states but if you are worrying about the package and not caring about the content then I would suggest you have your priorities backwards because the content is second to none.

What put's many people off Erle is that he doesn't act the guru or master at all and infact this is just Erle being very Australian and irreverent. Those who need to be in a hero worship or master worship mode in order to feel that what they are learning is valid are always going to be dissapointed by Erles style because Erle isn't about style over substance. Erle's way of teaching and his presentation is second to none in my opinion. I would be very curious to know which students of Erle said he was sloppy and not pedantic enough? Any names? We are a small community within the WTBA in OZ.

Now to the controversy... I agree that Erle has a dismissive way of putting things regarding some poor teachers or so-called Masters, but the thing to understand is that he isn't insulting any real Masters or excellent teachers but rather only those who play games, use trickery or who claim to have known things after the fact when they didn't and perhaps covet what Erle has been espousing for many years. The only people who would take offense to Erle's comments would logically be Masters and Teachers who were indeed using tricks, getting students to play the game and those who are insecure about their real worth! Those who were indeed above all this and of good standing would go about their business knowing full well Erle is not talking about them. In that sense I feel that those who protest against Erle over these matters are indeed such a kind!

Now for a story that Erle directly told me which might very well explain allot of digruntlement within the IMA community over Erle. Many years ago Erle was invited whilst in the U.S to attend a large banquet in his honour which was to be hosted by a large East coast Taijiquan group and it's head Masters and teachers. Erle graciously accepted and attended the dinner. During this dinner the old Master leant over the table and feeling that Erle was now becoming an insider he whispered something in Erles ear that Erle did not like. What the old man said was that he was religiously involved in using trickery to pass as emittances of Qi and various other tricks in order to fool students. The old boy was laughing and smiling as he said this and made it clear that this was pretty common. What the old Master (so-called) did not count on was that Erle would have the integrity and gumption to actually walk out on his own banquet, given in his honour where he was to be presented with a certificate, never to return!

Now join the dot's and imagine what might have happened after Erle left and how they might have decided to go into damage control! Thereafter and for many years there was a concerted and deliberate villification from certain parties within the East coast U.S IMA community in order to black ball Erle's name. I won't add anymore to this particular tale but the rest should be pretty clear. I have seen and argued with such groups on the old Klein board for instance.

Another small fact which might explain why the Yang family do not recognise Erle's Old Yang style system openly - though they do secretly! - is that when Erle was last with them they offered Erle the opportunity to be the Head representative of Yang style in the Australasian region... but the price was a sum of hundreds of thousands of dollars for the franchise and again Erle said, "forget it", and came back to Australia to make his way.

The moral of the story is that in this world you seldom get a pat on the back for being the upstanding, tell it like it is, man with integrity. What usually happens to the honest guy who has enough guts and self respect to not pander to those with standards far beneath their own is that you draw allot of fire from the people whose lies you threaten to uncover the most by your standing on your own!

I'm not saying the Yang's lied, they just made an offer for a franchise and for public and official confirmation which Erle didn't want a part of. But in other cases we have people who are not worthy of their place within the IMA communities who would twist the truth in order to blacken the name of an upstanding and down to earth Taiji practitioner whose only real fault lay in the fact that he had some ethics.

There is allot more to Erles story than just these two examples but what people need to do is look for the content and if it works then use it. If it doesn't then move on. I will be training within the WTBA for the rest of my life because I know whats what from where I'm standing and I know the system is superb. In regard to lineages well this may be an issue of faith more often than not. I believe in Erle's lineage and his connection with Chang Yiu Chun and thats all that matters to me really. Erle's lineage has nothing to do with the effectiveness of his Taiji or any of the other arts he teaches. The two are mutually exclusive and at the end of the day say nothing.

There are religious people who are not spiritual and there are spirutual people who are not relgious; who's right? Just as there are people with lineage up the wazoo who can't use their arts to fight their way out of a paper bag and those who have no lineage who can. Nobody asked Yang Lu Chan for his lineage because it was irrelevent... he just kicked arse!

This has been a community service announcement...

Best to all, Syd

[Melanie]

Welcome to the forum Syd :)

Its nice to recieve an opinion from some one right in the thick of things.

I look forward to hearing more from you :)

[nzric]

Hey Syd. As you know, I train with Keith Brown as well so I've probably met you in the past (I started with Keith in January 2002, before that I was with Paul Brecher and one of his students in London for six months).

Thanks for the information about Erle - that was the kind of info I wanted to find out when I started the thread.

I've been to one of Erle's workshops (August last year) and I know he definitely isn't a sloppy teacher, but since his style is so casual and matter-of-fact (and he doesn't get caught up in the mumbo jumbo) it can appear that he isn't as strict as those that teach in silk pyjamas.

Also, he has so much information to give that you scramble to keep up with him - I know from meeting him, training with Keith and seeing some video clips (I don't have any of Erle's videos) that the basis of Erle's teaching is to give as much information as the student asks for, then fill in the gaps later. This is in direct contrast to some other teachers who withhold information till they deem the student worthy/ready. As a result, it is inevitable that Erle or his teachers will excuse the stomping and stiff execution of movements by beginner students, only to refine and revise at a later time. In a way, both the 'free information' and the 'secret society' teaching styles are similar in that the student's brain is only able to take so much information at one time (unfortunately!)

[Syd]

Hey NZ,

I knew you must be training with Keith when I read another post where you said you trained in Glebe. We've never met because I left training with Keith about 6 months before Erle did a workshop with Keith's regular class. I assume however that some of the old regulars are still there like Roger, Larissa maybe and maybe not so much Josh these days because he's in Perth tatooing from what Keith told me the other day.

I 'll most likely be dropping in on Keiths Sat morning class from now on but living in the Mtns I can't get to the weeknight evening classes anymore. Training with Keith brought me to such a level where I am fine training alone these days and getting together with Keith once in a while for corrections if I need them.

Do you train outside Keiths classes? I am looking for training partners for Small San Sau, Long Har Chaun, Large San Sau, Power Push Hands, One Step Sparring, 2 person Short Stick sparring and general applications. If you want to train without paying for it outside class time and need a partner let me know because I am in Sydney regularly.

Best, Syd

[nzric]

Roger is still there, so is Cameron. I haven't been for a few weeks because of study, but from what I've seen there are a lot more new people starting up with Keith now.

I'd be keen to meet up - I don't know stick forms or large san sau, but sparring, push hands, small san sau sound ok. Do you study bagua and/or dim mak/wudang katas?

Maybe we could send a notice out for everyone based in Sydney - it seems like there's quite a few of us. Let me know when you're free in the near future and we'll start to arrange something.

[Syd]

Howdy NZ,

so is Cameron...

I think Cameron would be a new guy, well in that he would have arrived after I was with Keith, which was about 1 year all up.

I'd be keen to meet up - I don't know stick forms or large san sau, but sparring, push hands, small san sau sound ok. Do you study bagua and/or dim mak/wudang katas?

Sounds good man. We can just get together some time and go through what we know and the kinds of things we might like to work on and just let it flow. I'd dig some small San Sau training and would like to get into some double push hands with the peng/hinge attack applications.

I don't study Bagua but I'm not averse to the moves or working with Bagua moves because they are very similar to the Taiji. I am definately into the Dim Mak applications and the Qi disruptives. I have a focus pad we can use for training one step strikes etc. And I'm thinking of getting a rubber knife to work on dealing with close quarter knife attacks.

Maybe we could send a notice out for everyone based in Sydney - it seems like there's quite a few of us.

This is exactly what I have been wanting to do for a while. I was thinking of trying to get a regular group of people together in Sydney who want to train in free time. We could arrange a central location or parkland somewhere like Centennial or something which is big enough that you don't attract too much attention and we could get a chance to really work on Taiji fighting and applications without having to pay for it.

This can either be a great way to supplement training for people who are with Keith and a great way for people like me who train alone to work
with different partners. I have already been contacted by a friend of Kats (Andrew) who is not registered here who wants to train and has some good skill level in the Montaigue system, so there's one more person.

Why don't we get a Fajinquan crew together as a bit of a Sydney training group. Let me know what you think?

Let me know when you're free in the near future and we'll start to arrange something.

Sounds good. Lets follow this up in e-mail so we can talk a few other logistics out. Just send me a mail at psi_fan@yahoo.com

Best, Syd

[soggycat]

" Although the content is unrivalled the picture quality and sometimes the sound are far from perfect, especially on the earlier titles. To most serious Martial Arts Instructors and Students this does not present a problem, but we do have the occasional complaint about quality"


" Erle's videos however are 'down to earth' productions, full of valuable information for the serious practitioner of the internal arts, you might also get the odd snake, dog or horse appearing visually or audibly, but there won't be a silk brocaded suit in sight "

....by an Erle video distributor in Wales itself .
http://www.kunzhi.net/wtba-vids.html

Kunzhi Ltd, PO Box 409, Swansea, SA1 4ZA

[soggycat]

"THIS IS ERLE MONTAIGUE, AN AUSTRAILIAN MASTER OF TAI JI, BAGWA AND QIGONG AND THE WORLDS MOST RESPECTED INSTRUCTOR IN CHINESE INTERNAL HEALING ARTS. IN MY OPINION HE IS A GLOBAL TREASURE. THE FOLLOWING WEBSITES WILL ANSWER ALL YOUR QUESTIONS AND TELL YOU MUCH MUCH MORE. "


Isn't it amazing Erle has managed to inspire some people to believe that he's the best in the world, even better than anyone a Taoist hermit ? Master worship ? JUdge for yourselves.

http://homepages.tesco.net/~Ian.Watts3/

[Syd]

Soggy,

You make an interesting point but Erle can't be responsible for the opinions of other people or the way in which they choose to view him.

If you look at numerous letters he gets in the FAQ's on his site you see people calling him Master and Sifu and he always replies that he wants people to just call him, mate, or plain Erle.

It's like saying because someone see's me as a such a such, that I'm responsible for their perception! Erle can't be held repsonsible for other peoples opinions of him including your own. And besides, the guy is a Master in his chosen system and any time you want to challenge that, he's right there waiting, I'm quite sure.

You seem to have an axe to grind with Erle... I don't know why but perhaps you should redirect your energies elsewhere because those of us who actually study in his system won't be changing our minds.

Respectfully, Syd

[soggycat]

Originally posted by Syd

So if you ask me, having trained in this system what I think of it? I think it's the greatest fighting art ever created. This is not blind devotion to Erle because I don't train with Erle.


Interesting for you to be able to extol the virtues of Erle when the only contact with him you’ve had is email and his videos.
Does this inspire credibility?


Originally posted by Syd


Now to the controversy... I agree that Erle has a dismissive way of putting things regarding some poor teachers or so-called Masters, but the thing to understand is that he isn't insulting any real Masters or excellent teachers but rather only those who play games…...


Arrogance is more like it. By putting out challenges of such nature , he implies he’s an authority, and that to be recognised one must receive ERLE’s stamp of authentication. Conversely, isn’t it interesting that the YANG family does not insist Erle PROVE his lineage to the world ?

Originally posted by Syd


Now for a story that Erle directly told me which might very well explain allot of digruntlement within the IMA community over Erle. Many years ago Erle was invited whilst in the U.S to attend a large banquet in his honour ……
Off course we only have his word for it?
How about some PROOF?
Seeing that he’s quite insistent on Proof about Empty Force practitioners ?




Originally posted by Syd


Another small fact which might explain why the Yang family do not recognise Erle's Old Yang style system openly - though they do secretly! - is that when Erle was last with them they offered Erle the opportunity to be the Head representative of Yang style in the Australasian region... but the price was a sum of hundreds of thousands of dollars for the franchise and again Erle said, "forget it", and came back to Australia to make his way.


Wow, not only are you into Erle worship, you even know the secret thoughts of the Yang family.
Maybe you could make a low quality video and show how this skill can be learnt in 6 easy steps.
Also, pardon me if I’m wrong, are you now also casting aspersions on the Yang family….about them McDonaldlising Yang TaiChi ?
Is there any PROOF ?
Is this Erle’s reason as to why is has been UNABLE to prove his lineage despite repeated calls?
Isn’t this the heart of the controversy ?
Is it possible he cant prove his Yang lineage , because the traditional lineage inheritors/ holders/keepers do not acknowledge him as an authority, thereby compelling him to invent this tale that he rejected Yang’s financial deal out of a sense of integrity ( according to your account)

Originally posted by Syd


The moral of the story is that in this world you seldom get a pat on the back for being the upstanding, tell it like it is, man with integrity. What usually happens to the honest guy who has enough guts and self respect to not pander to those with standards far beneath their own is t…


So you are implying also Erle learnt Yang Style from those “those with standards far beneath their own”

Originally posted by Syd


I'm not saying the Yang's lied, they just made an offer for a franchise and for public and official confirmation which Erle didn't want a part of.
But you are implying Yangs lack integrity and cheapen the Art by commercialising it.


But then again, selling $60 low quality videos ( over 100 in total?), selling it cheaper to foreigners (than to Aussies) says nothing about his INTEGRITY

[Andy Murray]

Steady on SoggyCat.

Mod in da house :D

[Syd]

Soggy,

Interesting for you to be able to extol the virtues of Erle when the only contact with him you’ve had is email and his videos. Does this inspire credibility?

I'm not extolling the virtues of Erle but rather of Yang Lu Chan and those who this art comes down from. The fact that Erle is my conduit to gaining this knowledge is besides the point. I have trained with his senior student in the WTBA so, yes, I think that my opinion is a credible one. There are plenty of Christians who never met God my friend. You can't seem to differentiate Taiji from Erle.

Arrogance is more like it. By putting out challenges of such nature , he implies he’s an authority, and that to be recognised one must receive ERLE’s stamp of authentication.

You could see it that way but anyone who know's Erle, whether personally ,by tape or e-mail, knows thats not where he's coming from, apart from maligned little fellows such as yourself. ;)

Conversely, isn’t it interesting that the YANG family does not insist Erle PROVE his lineage to the world ?

I wouldn't know whether they do or they don't... DO YOU? If so prove it one way or the other.

ofcourse we only have his word for it? How about some PROOF? Seeing that he’s quite insistent on Proof about Empty Force practitioners ?

He's got nothing to prove generally, so if you want proof go and dig it up fido. The onus is on *you* to disprove it if you don't like it.

Wow, not only are you into Erle worship, you even know the secret thoughts of the Yang family.

Not at all, I just know something of the man which tells me things that you obviously don't know. And yes I trust what he has told me to be accurate in regards the Yang Family. Because I drink milk doesn't mean I worship cows. Your a bit silly aren't you? *L*

Maybe you could make a low quality video and show how this skill can be learnt in 6 easy steps.

If I could teach as well as Erle teaches on video's, sell them, and make a living
teaching people a great art like Taiji the way Erle does, I'd be content. The steps are the same amount whether they are taught on tape or in person, but you wouldn't know about that would you? Why don't you tell all of us who YOUR teacher is and what system you train in eh? :)

Also, pardon me if I’m wrong, are you now also casting aspersions on the Yang family….about them McDonaldlising Yang TaiChi ?

Your pardoned....

Is this Erle’s reason as to why is has been UNABLE to prove his lineage despite repeated calls?

Repeated calls from who, when, where? Why don't YOU provide proof of all these calls for proof of his lineage because the last time I looked at his website he had provided names and explained the circumstances. Again the burden is on you to support your argument since it is you who is challenging Erle. *L* Go on then... off you go.

Is it possible he cant prove his Yang lineage , because the traditional lineage inheritors/ holders/keepers do not acknowledge him as an authority, thereby compelling him to invent this tale that he rejected Yang’s financial deal out of a sense of integrity ( according to your account)

Well I think certain records may be difficult for Erle to obtain since Chang Yiu Chun is now dead but Chang Yiu Chun was a cousin of the Yang family and learned his art directly from Yang Shou Hou. He was also a classmate along sides Chen Pan Ling and one of only three openly recognized students.

It has been quoted by a Yang family lineage holder that what is missing from the official Yang Style today is alive and well outside the Yang Family system! I believe Erle fairly well represents a branch of that Yang family system. I think the issue of official recognition is more to do with the popular understanding of Taiji as a health art rather than a fighting art quite frankly. But perhaps you don't understand that and only see things from a subjective view point.

So you are implying also Erle learnt Yang Style from those “those with standards far beneath their own”

Not at all. You have missunderstood one from the other as you are wont to do. He learn't his art from Chang Yiu Chun who was taught by Yang Shou Hou and as such these men were extremely honourable. When I said "those with standards..." I was reffering to the group in the U.S with regards to the banquet. But ofcourse you missed that... as you are wont to do.

But you are implying Yangs lack integrity and cheapen the Art by commercialising it.

Not at all. The Yangs have a large business to run and see a way of making money in a capitalistic society. Why shouldn't they be able to earn a living from their great family tradition the way Erle earns his own living from what he has learned from them?

At no point did I imply anything other than the fact that Erle was offered to head up the Aussie franchise for a large sum of money, which he declined. Simple as that soggycat. Your additions of "cheapen art by ...." is just melodrama chosen for effect to support your antagonism towards Erle; It is a weak device.

But then again, selling $60 low quality videos ( over 100 in total?), selling it cheaper to foreigners (than to Aussies) says nothing about his INTEGRITY

Here we go again *yawn* save us from the quality control police. If you are so maligned about it why don't you write to Erle and share your thoughts on this. Erle sells his videos at $50 U.S, 30 GBP and $50 Euro! Which is more expensive to foreigners and less expensive to Australians because he sell's them for about $70 Australian, including postage and GST! Get your facts straight!

Here's the mathematics for you...

$50.00 U.S = $69.00 AUD

30 GBP = $69.00 AUD

$50 Euro = $81.00 AUD

Guess what? It's MORE expensive to Europeans!!!!!!! *LMAO*

Tell me thats all you've got....

Respectfully, Syd ;)

[nzric]

Thanks Syd.

Soggy, a few questions... if you shouldn't respect any videos that aren't a masterpiece of visual production, I spose that cancels out any martial arts demonstration on film before, say, 1980. Is that your argument?

If someone tells you that you can turn your finger into a gun, and when the next crazy nut tries to mug or rape you, you should point your finger at them and say "pow"... well I'd say that is a dangerous teacher who should be discredited before they are responsible for someone getting hurt. Can you please let me know the difference between that and the "chi power" demonstration videos that you can find in the back of any kung fu magazine?

Why do you try to discredit Erle's video quality or his lineage instead of his going near the topic of his skill? If you have any claim that Erle's technique isn't based on true and effective tai chi principles, I'd like to hear them (he's a martial artist, not a film director).

About the price of the tapes - Erle actually offers a free video, you only have to pay for the postage. He also has an extensive list of free video clips to download from his site, as well as the full text of many of his books (a couple of hundred pages each) and articles as PDF's. There are free article archives, as well as a huge FAQ section. Oh, and the Combat and Healing magazine is free and there are frequent updates for more video clips.

If you actually take the time to look through his site you'll find years worth of information right there without having to touch your credit card.

[Syd]

Well said NZ...

[soggycat]

Originally posted by Syd


Erle can't be held repsonsible for other peoples opinions of him including your own. And besides, the guy is a Master in his chosen system and any time you want to challenge that, he's right there waiting, I'm quite sure.


I agree he can’t control what people think about him, but I disagree that he has no influence at all in this area. By condemning things he doesn’t agree with ( Empty Force) and by selling lots of books, videos and weekend workshops, he creates the impression he is very knowledgeable. And off course he does this in the spirit of altruism “ spreading Harmony across the world” and not “ holding back anything” and he reaps absolutely no commercial reward

Originally posted by Syd

You seem to have an axe to grind with Erle... I don't know why but perhaps you should redirect your energies elsewhere because those of us who actually study in his system won't be changing our minds.



Yes I do have an axe to grind. I have said that before. But it is wrong for you to tell me to go else where with my views, as the Original topic of this forum was to invite opinions about the Erle controversy. I’m not here to change anyone’s mind . I merely present my views, it’s up to you to accept reject or do more research as I have.
In summary my Issue with Erle is mainly with his arrogance in dismissing Empty Force coupled with his inability to provide clear indisputable and verifiable proof as to his lineage ( which has a direct impact on his “Master” image )
I also point out he is watering down an ancient and well preserved artform thru his non judicious production of videos and books, and teaching advanced techniques like Dim Mak over weekend camps. It dangerously promotes the idea that these advanced techniques are easy to learn and that the Chinese Masters were somehow wrong to teach it only to VERY senior students over a period of years.
Should Erle’s student actually try to apply DimMak in an actual combat situation, and fail, the student will like say Dim Mak is rubbish…it didn’t work. It didn’t occur to him maybe it’s because Erle INCORRECTLY suggested to him it can be learnt in a weekend
It is interesting how you use the term “actually study in his system”…as if to suggest he invented it. In 2 generation’s time with the help of many gullible Erle worshippers, very soon this will evolve into Erle Quan or something like that

[soggycat]

Originally posted by Syd



Here we go again *yawn* save us from the quality control police. If you are so maligned about it why don't you write to Erle and share your thoughts on this. Erle sells his videos at $50 U.S, 30 GBP and $50 Euro! Which is more expensive to foreigners and less expensive to Australians because he sell's them for about $70 Australian, including postage and GST! Get your facts straight!


The last time I tried to order Erle’s video some 7 months ago, I was quoted AUD$60.
This was in an email. But when I check the webpage it quote AUD$50 for orders outside Australia.
Off course ever since he moved to Wales , these figures would have changed, so it’s pointless to check the webpage now. Maybe he realised the discrepancy and changed it ?

[soggycat]

“….. a few questions... if you shouldn't respect any videos that aren't a masterpiece of visual production, I spose that cancels out any martial arts demonstration on film before, say, 1980. Is that your argument?”

nzric
No, that is not my argument.
I have
I’m implying the sloppiness of the production quality ( picture and sound) is an indication of his character.
If you are sloppy in one thing, you are likely to be sloppy with other things ( like technique and teaching)
On that matter, I did examine his Fajin demo ( free video clip)…there was far too much movement and effort, to an untrained eye it would look impressive, but then isn’t Erle teaching INTERNAL not External Martial Arts ?
I’ve seen far far better demos of Fajin without the same kind of struggle Erle needs to move that sandbag.
I take issue with this because this is giving the innocent public a WRONG impression of what PROPER Fajin technique is.

[Syd]

Soggy,

I agree he can’t control what people think about him, but I disagree that he has no influence at all in this area.

No martial artist who is making a living is going to promote their system or art as garbage are they? He doesn't tell people to call him master or sifu he does the exact opposite, he doesn't dress in silks and carry on like he rules over people, and yet you seem to begrudge him the fact that he might promote what he does as effective. It would be ludicrous for him to do anything else, wouldn't it?

By condemning things he doesn’t agree with ( Empty Force) and by selling lots of books, videos and weekend workshops, he creates the impression he is very knowledgeable.

Are you saying that because he has been outspoken on the issue of people who fake empty force that this means he is against empty force in total and that this means he is not knowledgable? The two things are mutually exclusive I am afraid.

And off course he does this in the spirit of altruism “ spreading Harmony across the world” and not “ holding back anything” and he reaps absolutely no commercial reward

You seem to think that altruism means that you have to starve like a leper in life. I think you have the wrong end of the stick. Erle is able, by virtue of his efforts, to make a living from his art, and in sharing his knowledge he has helped a great many people completely free of charge.

Few people realize that Erle often sends people video's completely free of charge when they contact him by e-mail in order to help them work through various disease states and health problems. I was sent a free tape when I first contacted Erle and I know countless others who have been generously dealt with free of charge also.

No mention is made of the hundreds of e-mails Erle recieves each day, asking him questions about health problems, some people are often terminal, martial arts, nutritonal issues; and he always gives free advice and promptly respsonds within 24 hrs!

I can't think of many Sifu's or Masters who would do that and ask nothing in return for their time and trouble in these matters. He lectures alternative health colleges on various aspects of the arts and has written a foreward for
The Point Location Manual written by Carol Rogers; my old Traditional Chinese Medicine lecturer at the University of Technology Sydney, head of the TCM department and a foremost expert on acupuncture and points worldwide!

If he wasn't knowledgable, as you seem to claim, do you think any of these august associations would have anything to do with him? Erle is extremely altruistic and the fact that he happens to earn himself a living along the way in no way cheapens what he does and what he offers countless numbers of people in exchange for a great wealth of knowledge. I would say he deserves to be able to make a living just like anybody else who has payed their dues.

On a personal note, Erle has often exchanged countless e-mails working through my questions on training and on very private aspects of what I seek to achieve personally. He has sent me personal video's of a master in Singapore performing a rare version of the Yang Broadsword when I wanted to learn and prior to his Broadsword video being released. He asked nothing in return for this collectable bit of footage and just posted it to me.

Finally on the last point you made, I don't see anywhere where it says you can't spread peace and harmony the world over and be happy and earn a living at the same time.

Yes I do have an axe to grind. I have said that before. But it is wrong for you to tell me to go else where with my views,

I didn't tell you to go elsewhere with your views. I merely suggested that your argument held no sympathy here and that your energies might be better expended on something you might be fit to gain something from... rather than lose. It was only a suggestion based on my uncanny clairvoyance of the likely outcome of this debate, that is all. I was trying to do you a favour, but you are apt not to see that. ;)

...as the Original topic of this forum was to invite opinions about the Erle controversy. I’m not here to change anyone’s mind . I merely present my views, it’s up to you to accept reject or do more research as I have.

I respect and defend your right to share your opinion so long as you play the ball and not the man. You seem to have little or nothing to say regarding Erle's technique but rather seem to only attack his method of sales and of sharing his knowledge.

Since I have no problem with either, I can't see the point in your argument and again the burden is upon you to convince me otherwise, something I am doubtful you are able to do... that it all.

In summary my Issue with Erle is mainly with his arrogance in dismissing Empty Force...

Are you one of the people he dismissed Soggy? Or is your teacher or style maligned by his comments indirectly? He has openly stated that if someone can show him empty force in person he will bow down and defer. Go and show him your empty force my friend, it's on you to make a believer out of him then. Having said that though, it isn't that he doesn't believe but rather he hasn't seen the real thing yet, in his humble opinion.

...coupled with his inability to provide clear indisputable and verifiable proof as to his lineage ( which has a direct impact on his “Master” image )

Erle's Master degree was awarded to him in China by other Masters and actually has nothing to do with lineage at all. People can be named a master without lineage my friend it is simply a matter of skill. As I said earlier he has explained his lineage through Chang Yiu Chun to Yang Shou Hou, the question is moot.

Whats your lineage? Who is YOUR Master? You still won't answer those basic questions and until YOU are willing to do that you are hardly in a position to challenge his own lineage and it's authenticity!

I also point out he is watering down an ancient and well preserved artform thru his non judicious production of videos and books, and teaching advanced techniques like Dim Mak over weekend camps.

There are easier ways for people to kill people these days than going out and learning Dim Mak. What would you deem to be a judicious production of tapes, books (Many of which are totally FREE of charge to download at his website)?

You admit that his techniques are Advanced and this is your major bug bear, so there's nothing wrong with what he's teaching but rather you are annoyed that he doesn't teach the way YOU would teach certain things. This is the worst case of Martial Arts back seat driving I've ever come across!

The truth is that Dim Mak is a technique that can't be learned in a weekend workshop and Erle never said it could be learned in a weekend workshop. The point od workshops is not to cover an entire syllabus in two days but rather to demonsrate principals of technique and discuss the
sub-texts therein.

Any fool who knows nothing about Dim Mak can smack someone in the throat or the carotid sinus, the temple or any number of other places and kill someone but any fool can't walk off the street and water down Dim Mak because you have to get it, to make it work! Get it?

How you can say that he is watering anything down is beyond me. Have you attended his workshops? Have you studied his Dim Mak tapes and learn't nothing from them? Have you studied from his books and been unable to learn anything? Have you ever met him or studied under him or any of his senior students? Where do you assume that this watering down has occured and where is the proof of it?

It stands to reason that someone who would feel so strongly would have some cause or event from which this bitter annoyance sprang from, otherwise what could possibly be the cause of such a vitriolic tirade without?

C'mon then... do tell? :)

It dangerously promotes the idea that these advanced techniques are easy to learn and that the Chinese Masters were somehow wrong to teach it only to VERY senior students over a period of years.

Find me anywhere where Erle has said that Masters were wrong to teach Dim Mak to select or senior students over years? He teaches that Dim Mak must be mastered over many years also, only he is open about teaching it to anyone who wants to learn.

People get killed in a street fight from being kicked in the head and dying two days later from a brain hemmy. This is allot quicker and more effective to a bloke who knows nothing about Dim Mak than Dim Mak is to a guy who knows a few things about Dim Mak in a weekend! *L*

So should we say that kicking footballs is a dangerous promotion of head kicking, which could result in sudden death if you kick someone in the head?

Should Erle’s student actually try to apply DimMak in an actual combat situation, and fail, the student will like say Dim Mak is rubbish…it didn’t work.

No, they will know that their execution of the technique didn't work, there is a difference.

It didn’t occur to him maybe it’s because Erle INCORRECTLY suggested to him it can be learnt in a weekend

Find the article or promotion where Erle states that Dim Mak can be learn't in a weekend? :) Were you a student at one of his workshops who he treated dismissively and since then you have gone on ego vendetta overdrive?

C'mon mate, tell us what the REAL beef is? :)

It is interesting how you use the term “actually study in his system”…as if to suggest he invented it.

Well Erle teaches a system because he doesn't just teach a single style but he
teaches many things all rolled into one large syllabus, should you want to go that way. Since he is not officially recongnized by the Yang family it is ofcourse wise to call his system of teaching the Erle Montaigue system which is essentially The World Taiji Boxing Association and the art in the umbrella format is Fajinquan because this is the element of Old Yang Taiji that he stresses in his teaching.

Erle knows he did not invent Yang Taijiquan and says so quite clearly in articles at his website. But as a Master in his art he his at that level where he is apt like many other Masters to make the art his own, as did every member of the Yang Family from Yang Lu Chan down! Nobody owns Taiji, it is something that you strive to become!

Erle has reached a stage as with many
Masters where the art becomes your own and he has begun to inteprut and analyze certain aspects of the art and so he teaches in the vein of his own interpretation. This is common in the Yang Family system and in the MA community the world over. Students of his system are learning his unique interpretation of Old Yang Style Taijiquan.

It is allot like Classical music where the conductors will have their orchestra play a preconcieved piece of music a slightly different way and this is essentially what any thinking Martial Artist at the higher levels SHOULD be doing. If you have a problem with that take it up with Erle.

In 2 generation’s time with the help of many gullible Erle worshippers, very soon this will evolve into Erle Quan or something like that

If what he's doing is so bad and so useless and apt to fail in the street, why would you care what it was called? Infact one would think that you'd be happy for it to have THAT name rather than Old Yang Style Taijiquan! But oh no... you seem to be afraid that something quite good and effective will be passed down by a white guy with blue eye's which carries his name as well as the good names of Yang Lu Chan and Chang Yiu Chun.

Erle has only ever promoted the great art of Yang Style Taijiquan and openly admits he stands on the shoulders of giants. You clearly know nothing about the man or anything he stands for and your points are for the most part absolutely absurd. This is the last you'll get from me.

Anybody else bothered? *L*

Syd...

[nzric]

"Zhang Sanfeng was called 'Sloppy Zhang' since he was careless about his appearance."
http://www.shadowhand.com/NewSite/wudang/changsanfeng.html
and
http://www.eng.taoism.org.hk/general-daoism/eminent-philosophers&accomplished-daoists/pg1-4-29.asp

"T'ai Chi orIgins can be traced back to the Twelfth century to a Taoist monk called Chang San-Feng. Not much is known about Chang except that he went under a number of names, such as Chang Laor Taor or Chang The Slob because of his ragged appearance."
http://www.laigasauonline.fsbusiness.co.uk/taichi1.html

I spose you'd better give up on tai chi altogether then because by your reasoning it was invented by a sloppy fraud.

I'm not saying that Erle is sloppy. He makes his living from the videos and because he's down-to-earth (as anyone who meets him or looks at his website knows) he doesn't feel that he should dress in a silk suit and have ambient background music for people to take him seriously. I respect the guy for that.

Pages and pages of angry criticism of Erle and we still don't even know what style you practice. Pretty interesting.

[Syd]

Actually I'm considering getting T-shirts printed with ERLEQUAN! *LMAO*

He he he he ... nice one cyril! ;)

[nzric]

I'm going to print a tshirt with "I 'heart' Erlequan" on the front, and a blue heeler in the foreground !!

[Syd]

I'll get onto D i c k Smith about taking on the ERLEQUAN franchise's... we'll need distribution and more professional production methinks. I've got Ridley Scott ear marked for directing the new line of ERLEQUAN videos and we might even get Steve Erwin and the Wiggles involved in spreading Dim Mak to the kiddies? Perhaps Kellogs could come onboard and we could get free plastic Meridian charts in the bottom of Cornflakes packets that you can shrink in the oven and turn into little key rings...







Edited by Yoda to show correct name - getting around the filter :p

[nzric]

Buy a happy meal and learn three ways to kill someone, and get a free key ring... I like it

Don't even get me started on the Wiggles dim mak dance - it'd be a hit at birthday parties.

[Syd]

Steve Erwin " I'm going to try and strike Gall Bladder 14 on this giant Croc!"

Seconds later... Greg Wiggle appears doing the Dim Mak dance in a sung position singing "Cold Spaghetti, Cold Spaghetti"

Whack! ....

[nzric]

Soggycat:

http://www.urban75.com/Mag/troll.html

Just some tips for your next post. Or do you actually believe what you've been spouting?

[Kat]

Is this thread still going!!!!:rolleyes:
How about everyone agree that there is more then one method of TJQ out there,and that some conflict on their particular focus,and where they are derived from.

[nzric]

The thing is when I started this thread I was inviting comment and criticism, but after I saw what was a pretty below the belt attack on Erle's teaching, I thought I had to reply. The comments:

"IMHO I think the controversy comes from acting like a " Know it All""
"Yeah I’d a look at his own “Fajin” video clip on his website…..looks like brute strength to me "
"Looks more like External Martial Arts to me."
"Someone ( a Caucasian )once remarked that he wouldn’t learn Martial Arts at an indepth level from a Westerner"
"low quality videos of poor audio quality for $60 with cameo screen appearances by their pet dog"
"he craps on people who claim to have " Empty Power/ Empty Force"

Well I invited comments about him, good and bad, but as I said in the first post, I wasn't going to contribute to spreading rumours. I respect Erle and his teachings and I was inviting honest discussion about it but I wanted comments that were about his style and how he fits into the IMA community, not about whether or not empty force exists, or the quality of his videos (which it seems to be universally agreed, contain useful information, whether or not they're done in his garage).

It seems that Soggycat has some vendetta against Erle that is more personal than he's letting on (I never thought you were Soggycat. But after six pages of postings we still don't know anything about the guy and why he's got so much venom). I'd say the comments are pretty out of order no matter who you're talking about. I may have (good and bad) opinions about Peter Lim or Dan Docherty, and also about other ma's, but as I respect them as professionals, I would make comments on a professional level.

Oh, and I personally think 'external force' is an evil idea and should be stopped by all good and honest people (stir)

Erle's just a guy making a living with what he does well. I would never want someone to choose not to look at his website or videos as a result of this thread because I think they're quality products and people are smart enough to make up their own minds.

End of story ... maybe : )

[Syd]

End of story ... maybe : )

Nahhhhhh... ;)

Hey Kat!

Where are you training?

[Kat]

Hey Syd,
I do a daily routine of Qigong and forms that I find work for me that I have sourced form a variety of areas.I am very fond of IMA and Chinese culture, history,but not really of the teachers I have meet within Sydney,so I just do what I like.MA wise I roll(wrestle) with a few friends once a week which I find is more fun and more challanging.Otherwise I direct my training towards cardio fittness and health(another gipe I have about many Sydney IMA people)and do a lot of outdoor sports.
A's a pretty keen lad,hope you meet up with him.I recommend Con as well,he used to post on this forum.Haven't met Soggy or Mad about Bagua.
Maybe a Sydney Yum Cha for the lot of us.

[Syd]

Kat,

I used to frequent Haymarket quite a bit in my Pyrmont years so by all means it would be great to go get some Yum Cha with a couple of the lads, exchange a few idea's and have a general chin wag.

I'm going to put out a general call with a thread to all the Sydney IMA guys and see who wants to get a Taiji fighting group together. Perhaps we could have a preliminary yum cha meeting also?

Choys 1000 A.D is still running I presume? ;)

Here's my e-mail psi_fan@yahoo.com, give me a hoy and let me know when you might be free.

Best, Syd

[Kat]

Actually Choys is gone:eek: ,But Kam ****(I think its just changed names) on top of Market city is still good value.Happy to come to a Yum Chat, any morning is good( I live in Pyrmont)lets see how many Sydney boys we can get.

[Syd]

Oh man! No Choys??? Kam ****? Is that the place in Market City where on Sat mornings theres a line to get in and they yell names and numbers over the loudspeaker before you get seated?

I used to live in Bowman St if you know where that is, in the last little row of terraces there. It used to look out over Black Wattle bay and the old Sydney Water Rats down below. Great area but the contruction factor is pretty full on these days.

Any morning good for you? O.k then. E-mail me so we can exchange numbers and let's see who we can get together for a bit of fun.

[Kat]

Thats the place,if you get there before 11am you can walk straight in,also helps if you can speak Canto.I will give you a email.

[nzric]

Great idea, just say the day. I'm out on Saturdays from 9 till 3:30 but Sundays are usually good for me. Work during the week but I may be able to stretch a day off.

It'd be good to meet in a park somewhere, try out some forms, then go up to eat and yarn somewhere around Market City once we work up an appetite.

My email's nzric@yahoo.com if we're making a list - probably best to get a show of hands first and some times that everyone's free.

[Syd]

NZ,

I'm making a list as we speak. I'll mail you
about the current low down and probable outcomes.

[soggycat]

Just sharing what I found from another MA forum, you already know the good stuff, so here's the less savoury stuff:

http://www.cyberkwoon.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10650&highlight=sydney
tekshow said :
“……….. watching Erle’s videos, and seeing his students. mr. montague is CLOSE... very close to the essence of real taiji and its martial applications....

some of his tech seems a little SLOPPY , but conceptually i think he has a ton to offer and his MASS MARKET ABILITY through the web is MIND NUMBING “


Klaus said :
“……….Compared to this, Erle moves somewhat sloppy.
“…….But real internal fighting manouvres are LIGHTYEARS from what I saw on tape done from Erle. “



http://www.cyberkwoon.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5870&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
Braden said: “………..You might want to be careful with second-hand information about Erle though. He has alot of 'overly zealous' supporters who say some 'remarkable' things. It's best to base your attacks off of things he personally has claimed. Not that I'm saying this is or isn't the case here.


Ffab said :
“Never return any of my mails and I asked politely if he wanted to discuss about his practice and historical views.”


http://www.cyberkwoon.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5870&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=60
Ffab said:

1.Mr Montaigue seems to have studied intermittently from 1964 til now. It seems that most of Mr Montaigue skills are self-taught.

2.Mr Montaigue travelled quite extensively, including to Hong-Kong and China where he received some instruction.

3.The duration of those instructions is not specified and we can only guess that it was not longer than a year each time. [thus point 1]

:woo:

[soggycat]

http://www.shenwu.com/discus/messages/21/1462.html#POST7814

…The rest of it seems really stupid. Erle has his head gutting out ahead of his body and his shoulders raised as high as possible in the pictures of him with the wooden-man.

……..Erle seems to be suffering from the exact problem he's complaining others suffer from. I think he's a scam artist.

……I've seen a number of real taiji masters (my own teacher - Fei Yuliang - for example is recognized in china as a taiji master and was a personal student with the Yang and Chen family, as was his father), and what Erle does is something completely different. I'm not talking about forms, everyone can learn a form, i'me talking about the way he moves and applies his 'art'.

…. Watch his videos on bagua on his site. He walks the circle like a beginner for balance and whole body power is not there.

……This article which calls a "typical bagua defence sequence" where he machineguns his partner, where's the bagua? Did I miss it?



http://www.shenwu.com/discus/messages/25/830.html
Shane said:
Did you like it when Erle said his daughter regularly knocks him out while playing around with DimMak techniques? And how his wife has to sleep in a seperate bed because he has so much 'Chi' his limbs fly about while he sleeps?
I mean, come on. The guy's a nut.

http://www.shenwu.com/discus/messages/431/1307.html#POST2089
Henry Lee said:
was not very specific or informative, only saying to hold each posture for 5 minutes and that you would "shake violently" and if it "hurt like hell" you were doing it correctly. That is contrary to anything i have ever been taught concerning ch'i kung. Also, watching him walk the circle and listening to him explain what to do and how to do it was a source of amusement. The same goes for his so called "linear" set. It really appeared to me that erle was making it up as he went along. I could be totally wrong and Erle may very well be the greatest martial artist of all time, but I won't be wasting my time practicing anything he has to teach.

Bob said :
EARL M. IS A GENIUS!
I've spent nearly $16,000 on tapes of his and seminars. A person once TOLD ME that Earl M. can explode rabbits from 14 feet away but wont because his daughter loves rabbits.
With that kind of skill and a heart like that,
(not to mention the price tag)how could anyone doubt the truth?
You guys need serious help.



http://www.shenwu.com/discus/messages/23/257.html

Bob said:
Having watched several Erle Montaigue video's and
listening to other martial artists whom I respect:
my opinion is that Erle is a complete quack.


http://www.shenwu.com/discus/messages/431/323.html
Henry said:
hello all,
thanks for the replies. i wasn't aware that park bok nam had his own topic area for discussion, sorry for posting in the other forum. i see that the consensus is that painter is a charlatan. i was wondering if anyone knew anything about james mcneil and his school? also, i viewed a video on bagwa recently by erle montaigue from australia. it was hilarious to watch and i was amazed that he could even pronounce bagwa! has anyone else seen this video or others by him? it's unfortunate that these so called masters cast a long shadow of doubt on the veracity of internal arts.

[xingyiboxer]

So I've done a lot of research on this and Erle, and basically it comes down to this.

Erle IS a scam artist. His purported Sydney taiji master never existed. There is absolutely no evidence.

His main source for his martial arts pre-bagua are from the U.K. He took taiji in the U.K., and then learned Dim Mak from some Praying Mantis guys there. (Paul Whitrod and his teacher).

He then went to Taiwan, and took Bagua there. He also picked up some other things from a few other people, and then started marketing video tapes, and giving classes.

His skills aren't terrible, but there isn't cohesion. He picked up things all over there, and then markets it like it's from some secret teacher.

At any rate, WHATEVER. Since most taiji or bagua people don't do a lot of practical applications for all intents and purposes Erle is as close as most people are going to get.

[Syd]

Thats interesting. Could you give a bit more info about your sources for where he got his training ( most of his students know he trained in the U.K and the then spent time in Asia etc ) in Dim Mak and point striking and more particularly the total lack of Chang Yiu Chun etc?

[xingyiboxer]

Okay. Well, for starters it's no secret about the bagua and taiji.

Here's one link here.

http://www.practical-martial-arts.co.uk/practical_martial_arts/erle_montaigue/em_erle_profile.html

His bagua is Gao style bagua as he admits, and it is well known that Gao style was publicly taught in Taiwan by Ho Ho Choy. He took taiji from Chu King-hung in the U.K., who is actually very good.

The rest I don't have direct evidence of that I can post. Somebody told me that at the same time he studied Dim Mak with Paul Whitrod and his teacher, which makes sense, since the dates match. I don't have direct evidence of this, but somebody told me this, who hasn't lied in the past (and has no reason to lie to make any money).

It makes sense in addition, not just because the dates match, because Erle uses the same names as those guys to refer to everything 'San sao' 'Dim Mak', etc. If you check carefully, it's guys speaking Cantonese from mainly Hong Kong that use those names, not from mainland China at all.

So do I have direct evidence his so called secret teacher didn't exist? No. Do I have any evidence at all his secret teacher existed? No. But there's a lot of evidence to point out his forms and techniques to these other teachers, which makes a lot of sense.

I've asked him directly about this, and of course he denies it up and down (who wouldn't when you have so many books to make money off of and a reputation to uphold).

At any rate, do the research yourself, and see where the trail leads.

Oh, and the reason his martial arts aren't quite so polished is he only studied taiji for like 3-4 years and the bagua for only like a year or two. This is why his bagua forms are so bad, but his taiji is better.

[Syd]

Thanks,

Do you think there would be any way to get in touch with Paul Whitrod and his ( who? ) teacher that you mention so we might verify any of this end of things? I think your logic regarding the naming of techniques leading to HK is sound and I am open to getting to the bottom of certain things myself.

I have actually done allot of my own research but although there are fishy things in the distant past I have never been able to get a direct response from the parties in the past who are cited or connected... such as Paul Whitrod.

Let me know anything else you find out.

[xingyiboxer]

At any rate, the reason I classify him as a scam artist is if you carefully watch his tapes (and I bought several of them before finding out what's really up with Erle), is that he mostly just talks on his tapes, and when he isn't talking, most of his forms are really bad, and his dim mak is almost totally theoretical.

That is, he hasn't done many knockouts like Dillman on his videos. He claims Dillman is some freak and Dillman is totally dangerous, yet supposedly Dillman has been doing knockouts for like 20 years.

His bagua is so bad in terms of form that it's a crying shame. His Wudang forms are equally as bad. It's obvious that he went there, spent a little time learning it, and then started teaching.

Do you really want to learn from somebody who spent 2 years or less learning something? No.

But at the same time, there is so little practical usage of taiji, bagua, etc., out there that for most people Erle's all they'll get. Sad but true.

[xingyiboxer]

Yes, I should ask Paul Whitrod directly. I think his teacher has passed away, but I'm not sure. I haven't asked him. He must remember a crazy Australian guy.

[Syd]

Have you read the Dillman article about *why* Erle feels the way he does about Dillman? No matter what you think of Erle I actually think from a medical perspective that Erle is right regarding knocking people out. Any medical person will tell you that everytime you knock a person out that you are doing some kind of irriversable damage to the brain. It's not a good thing to be doing and it is in actual fact dangerous.

Ali anybody?

By all means ask Whitrod i'd be fascinated.

[xingyiboxer]

No, what Dillman is doing doesn't seem to be knocking somebody out like in the traditional medical sense.

In the traditional medical sense, most knockouts occur due to trauma to the brain, or a lack of oxygen to the brain, etc.

If you look at what Dillman is doing, it seems to be that he is using the body's natural pain response mechanism. If too much stimulation goes to the brain, the person loses consciousness for a period of time. It's a natural reaction to keep the person from hurting themselves further.

Where's the trauma? The main example that Erle uses is the carotid artery. Yes, if you damage that artery, or loose plaque, then it's possible that could cause a problem. Yet, how many of Dillman's students have gotten a stroke from what he's doing? Zero.

Even the example on Erle's website the guy's saying he had some swelling that lasted like a day. BIG FREAKING DEAL. A bit of swelling and a red spot. Oh, horror of horrors. I've gotten much worse than that just at karate tournaments, like bruises that lasted for weeks.

So I'm sorry, but I just don't believe Erle. He speaks from theory and not experience like many other so-called 'masters'.

[xingyiboxer]

From Erle's site:

"I (Erle Montaigue) have still not been able to play guitar or perform single handed weapons forms due to a suspected broken right ring finger caused by Mr. Dillman when he asked for my hand to demonstrate a point and was given it freely and in trust. He took a wristlock, (allowed by myself in trust) and with great speed and power took my hand with me following to the ground, I believe breaking my third knuckle of my right ring finger."

Okay ... I've been in seminars where people have broken fingers, toes, and arms. I myself have broken arms in seminars. (Actually broken arm and fractured wrist).

"Glen Turner:

On Saturday 1-7-89 I attended the George Dillman Pressure Points Seminar at Macquarie University. During the course of the seminar, I had various wrist locks and pressure point manipulations performed on me and was "knocked out" by Mr. Dillman on two occasions, only one of which I volunteered for. The knockouts were done with strikes to the right side of my neck on the first occasion and to the left side of my neck the second time. I was also struck several times on the right side of my neck on the harder muscular area as a means of demonstrating how I could take strikes to the neck without the knockout because the points weren't taken (see text for explanation Author:) or manipulated correctly.

As far as after effects are concerned, the right side of my neck was swollen and puffy several hours after the seminar and did not subside until Monday morning. With the swelling was some bruising, which was painful till about the following Wednesday. The only other effects I experienced was a bruised left triceps muscle, the result of a fairly heavy blow to a pressure point (TW 12, See Text Author:) on the back of my left arm. Also, the inside of my right biceps was bruised after the manipulation of a point which Mr. Dillman told me was on my heart meridian. (H 6 and very dangerous! Author:)"

Oh, big deal. Bruising, pain and swelling! Horror of horrors! Good grief, does this guy do karate or sewing? I've had worse than that just after a sparring session in a regular karate class.

[Syd]

Being knocked out and feinting are very different things. If you are knocked out, no matter what the method, you are under and the lights are out in which case from a medical point of view it ain't good. Knocking people out left right and centre isn't good practice and personally I agree that it's not responsible. I feel you can demonstrate the how without the doing.

Talk to *any* doctor or medical professional. Losing consciousness is dangerous no matter how you slice it. If somebody volunteers then fine ... I wouldn't allow it. But we digress. If you feel broken bones and being knocked out should be worn like a badge of validity then fine, but this has nothing to do with verifying anybodies effectiveness in a martial art. Sitting ducks aren't a good example of applying a technique either. Compliance is a big problem.

Again we digress. You have made your mind up about Erle whereas I have not , I am open. I have trained within the WTBA under Keith Brown ... have you trained in the system or did you only look at tapes?

[xingyiboxer]

As for Ali, the reason he's so messed up is repeated shaking of the brain, which causes a lot of trauma to the brain. Repeated trauma to the brain, which can also traumatize the blood vessels that feed the brain, can cause not only long term injury to the brain (which Ali suffers from), but also internal bleeding to the brain, which isn't pretty.

That type of knockout and concussion, of course, can cause long term health problems. Many boxers get this because of the repeated impacts to the brain.

[xingyiboxer]

Being knocked out and feinting are very different things. If you are knocked out, no matter what the method, you are under and the lights are out in which case from a medical point of view it ain't good. Knocking people out left right and centre isn't good practice and personally I agree that it's not responsible. I feel you can demonstrate the how without the doing.

Talk to *any* doctor or medical professional. Losing consciousness is dangerous no matter how you slice it. If somebody volunteers then fine ... I wouldn't allow it. But we digress. If you feel broken bones and being knocked out should be worn like a badge of validity then fine, but this has nothing to do with verifying anybodies effectiveness in a martial art. Sitting ducks aren't a good example of applying a technique either. Compliance is a big problem.

Again we digress. You have made your mind up about Erle whereas I have not , I am open. I have trained within the WTBA under Keith Brown ... have you trained in the system or did you only look at tapes?

No, I haven't trained WTBA and I don't plan to. Training under a 'master' with only 3-4 years of experience with a teacher and a system is bad enough, but training under somebody who trained under somebody with only 3-4 years of experience is a CRIME.

It's a bit sad I spent as much as I did ($500) on Erle's tapes, but at least now I have a good baseline of what is bad skill, and a bunch of tapes to laugh at.

For the record, I don't think Dillman is that great either. It's too bad he didn't spend more time under Oyata and now just gives seminars where he spends most of the time talking people's ears off. He and Erle are pretty much tied in the verbosity levels.

[Syd]

I agree regarding Ali but nearly every type of knock out that a fighter will contend with will not be pure points either. A strike to the corotid will also involve trauma to the head unless it's a choke out. Any loss of consciousness is bad news for the brain.

[Syd]

No, I haven't trained WTBA and I don't plan to. Training under a 'master' with only 3-4 years of experience with a teacher and a system is bad enough, but training under somebody who trained under somebody with only 3-4 years of experience is a CRIME.

Thats fine, I don't either. I'm just not so quick to tear people down who I have not met or seen in person. For the record who do you deem to be genuinely skilled that you have decided to learn from?

[xingyiboxer]

Who is genuinely skilled? Honestly, I've hardly found anybody. And the people that I've found who are good aren't well known.

Like Vince Black in Xingyi, for example. One of the best examples in Taiji is Erle's Taiji teacher in England. There are some good Gao style students of Ho Ho Choy.

So honestly, it seems a waste of time to study from most of the teachers out there.

Being critical isn't tearing somebody down. Look at good taiji teachers, then look at Erle. Look at good Gao style teachers, then look at Erle. I'm not tearing him down, just stating the obvious.

[Syd]

I agree that there are few out there worth the time. But when there is so much bad out there, how do you determine what is good? Best of a bad lot? Who is the benchmark for good IMA? Is this subjective or do you know something others don't? I think allot of these determinations are largely subjective.

In any case let me know if you ever talk to Whitrod.

[Sandus]

Ali has Parkinson's Disease which may or may not have been caused by brain trauma. There are many boxers who've taken worse beatings in their lifetimes and sustained no permanent effects or at least less than what Ali has. Not to mention Ali didn't get knocked out that often, he just took an awful lot of punches.

[xingyiboxer]

Well, so much for that theory. Paul Whitrod says that Erle didn't study with him or his teacher.

???

So who knows.

[Syd]

Well there you go. It always helps to get something from the horses mouth.

[noblenicky]

Regardless of his reputation, I believe everyone has something to teach everybody, whether it is about taiji or some aspects in life. If he has not disadvantaged you in any way, I dont think it is fair for someone to disadvantage him.

(e.g. I may have something to teach my teacher about computers, but he definitely has a lot to teach me in taiji. Regardless of what the nature of the exchange is, respect should always be present).

[xingyiboxer]

??? If somebody is teaching (X) instead of (Y) then you will still respect them?

From the research I've done, Erle seems to have methods that NOBODY else has, and is claiming some things that nobody else does.

It is safe to assume that he made them up, barring further evidence.

I'm sorry, but there are so many stupid techniques out there, such as downward blocks for kicks in karate, which put the weakest bone in your arm against people's shins. That leaves your arm vulnerable to breaking, as I have learned the hard way.

So I should just respect the people telling me to do something stupid? No, I should not.

And I'm not saying that Erle is a bad fighter, or his techniques are all crap. Rather, that he doesn't seem to be the best example of the students of at least 2 of his teachers, and it seems he teaches his dim mak from theory, not experience.

[ShhDragon]

you mentioned 'Miller' Which Miller?
Also: the poor audio qulaity/pet dog stuff not germaine to your point
and honestly
If someone can't get $60 worth of lessons out of anyone's video
it surely is the viewer's failing.

-steve

[ShhDragon]

Firstly his name is spelled Erle


Secondly, a different model of proof exists than theat we are so familiar with. The one we refer to as scientific and which we know to be Western. Ken Wilber has suggested another way. Put simply it involves three ways in which we gleen information. They are the: "eye of flesh " "eye of mind" & "eye of contemplation." Put simply: the eye of flesh is the scientific mind the others are more involved than I will get in this post. Google Wilber's work if you like.

I will say, we have all had the feeling of someone looking at as when we are not looking at them already. We know this. We trust this. Interestingly, we don't think of it as freaky. It is a known. And yet, it fully falls out of the purview of the eye of flesh. We live in a world in which we have already accepted the other eyes. Already.



just a thought


-steve

[soggycat]

I have over the years met several of Erle's students who regard him his a Western IMA Expert. Some of these students have now become instructors.
In fact his expert status has recently been hailed by Wales.

In particular I noticed his Bagua students walk the circle in a rather peculiar and tititllating way. At the end of every 2 steps there's a sharp and distinct hip shake/ quiver . Now I must admit I have had a chance to witness many many styles of Bagua ( Gao, Fu, Yin Yang , Cheng Ting Hua) but I have never seen a style with a jiggle in the mud stepping walk.

Can someone please explain ?

I'm particulary concerned about accurate transmission of knowledge. I'm told Erle speak no chinese and spent only a short while in Wudang Shan , communicating through someone who's command of English was not near that of his native Chinese.Is it possible something was lost in translation?

If Erle disciples insist this walking style is the real thing, mebbe they shoud call their style Bagua Disco .......floor your enemy with the power to mesmerize, titillate and instigate uncontrollabe laughter

[Syd]

I have over the years met several of Erle's students who regard him his a Western IMA Expert. Some of these students have now become instructors. In fact his expert status has recently been hailed by Wales.

You've been like a broken down record on this for over a year, get a life. You won't reveal your own teachers or system and yet you attack Erle; very brave of you. You were asked a year ago to mention the names of these so-called students of Erle's and yet you provide nothing. You shoot down those who are in the open and do it from behind a rock.

Your a troll and nothing more. ;)

[gt3]

Erle clearly isn't a fraud, yet clearly isn't perfect. Is your teacher? Let's leave it alone already. He has his own opinions but atleast hes not claiming to have invented his own style and not give credit to anyone :bang:

[daftyman]

Nobody's perfect. 'cept me of course! :p

Why people feel the need to put others down, is beyond me. Most of the time it is only done to try to make themselves look better. To hide their own ignorance/weaknesses. A 'trollish' act that only serves to enrage and annoy.

We should listen to what people say, whoever they are. They may just say something that strikes a spark in your noggin that leads to a leap in your understanding.

Wandering about with your fingers in your ears shouting about how crap everyone else is, is both foolish and pointless. It does nobody and favours.

peace

[nzric]

soggycat... if you spent some time on Erle's website you'll find there's a lot of information on exactly why the bagua circle walking has that hip shake. I've spoken to Erle about this and there are real justifications as to why the step is performed in this way.

However, by the tone of your post it's clear you're not interested in learning about the step at all - you're just trolling. If you're truly interested in learning, ask an honest question not a thinly disguised attack.

[ShhDragon]

somethign is ALWAYS " lost in translation?"
was Erle losing more than usual, more than average? I doubt it but who knows.

[gt3]

I gaurentee when these trolls' instructors say or do things that are questionable that they blindly go along with it. People just like to nitpick of every little thing someone ELSE is doing. If you wanna nitpick do it with your own instructor. The human mind will ALWAYS find something it doesnt like if its searching. Then what will you do once you've found something your own instructor does that you dont like?

But really we get it already, if its not YOUR style or YOUR teacher then it must be wrong. Are you really THAT insecure?

[hwardo]

Good god, this thread lives?!

[nzric]

Just. It's hanging by a thread. I don't like to use the padlock too freely (especially in threads where I clearly have my own pov), but if this round turns into another flaming match I'll have no choice.

[hwardo]

You know, I just spent about an hour watching the free download videos on Erle's taiji website, and I have to say, what is the big freakin' deal? The guy is clearly competent to teach, he is personable, and he seems to have a lot of insight into IMA theory in general. What's all the 8 pages and a year of fuss about? Part of martial arts is the evolution of styles. Is there some degeneration as lineages are transfered and grasped by large audiences? Of course. But I dare anyone here to find a "pure" martial art, untouched and unchanged through thousands of years. The fact is, this guy is successful, and it is clear that he isn't trying to sell some 2 day tuscahoma warrior blackbelt course. He's teaching taiji. If anyone thinks he isn't, watch his videos and listen-- you'll probably learn something you didn't know. I did.
I think that people tend to be leary of success-- it seems like actually making money doing martial arts somehow correlates with mcdojo (or I guess, mckwoon in this case). Then there is the whole stigma of legitimacy-- some folks believing that the only legitimate teachers have pretty scrolls with asian characters on them. You know what? I've learned some valuable lessons in IMA from 20 year old Americans. They knew stuff I didn't.

Oops, I ranted. Close the thread, Nzric, this won't go anywhere good. : )

[daftyman]

Since the history of taijiquan is so open to debate, it is hard to decifer the true path. But, to an extent, who cares? If the guy is following the principles of the art, according to his own level of understanding, then great. It's when someone teaches taiji, but has no substance to their teaching that we should be wary of.

Erle Montaigue has been teaching for many years, and throughout that time I will assume that he is continuing to deepen his own understanding of what is going on. He has a lot to teach people, and he has taught a lot of people. True, he has made some money through his teaching, but I do not believe that it was at the expense of the art. From the videos I have seen he seems like a nice bloke and while I won't be making a trip to Wales to see him, I would if he were closer at hand. Probably only for a workshop though.

Look to your own faults before attacking those of others
or
Let him who is without sin cast the first stone

[nzric]

Ok, I started this thread with a real question. Everyone's had their chance to put their point across and as I noted in the very first post, this was supposed to be a fairly civil discussion.

Opening discussion and analysis of any one teacher can be inviting disagreement, but this has been an attempt to keep a civil discussion about a colourful character in the world of taiji. Erle himself readily admits he doesn’t toe the traditional line and has had public disagreements with other teachers for all sorts of reasons. That is why he has opened himself to criticism and anyone who has contact with him will probably ask the same questions I did – why is he controversial?

Everyone has a clear opinion on the topic, which we’ve had more than enough time to air, and we should leave it to members and noobs draw their own conclusions.