What to look for?

[Orang Jawa]

I have a question for all of you...If I may
In learning silat or martial arts in general. How do you train your students and yourself to look for opponent's sign in a fight/sparr. Lets assume you and your opponent face to face with your left leg and his left leg in front.
Please tell me what to look for and why?
Thanks,
Tristan

[tim_stl]

Please tell me what to look for and why?

i look for a weapon. :)

seriously, though, i don't much look at how they're standing. a malaysian pesilat i know gave me a nice piece of advice: however your opponent stands, mimic it. he'll make a whole lot of wrong assumptions.



tim

[Orang Jawa]

i look for a weapon. :)

seriously, though, i don't much look at how they're standing. a malaysian pesilat i know gave me a nice piece of advice: however your opponent stands, mimic it. he'll make a whole lot of wrong assumptions.



tim

Thanks Tim, a good point, but that was not what I'm looking for.
C'mon guys :) especially for the guys that sparr alots. What kind of sign/move are you looking for/detect in your opponent to determine what he going to do.
This is not a trick question
Tristan

[Wali]

Thanks Tim, a good point, but that was not what I'm looking for.
C'mon guys :) especially for the guys that sparr alots. What kind of sign/move are you looking for/detect in your opponent to determine what he going to do.
This is not a trick question
Tristan
Knowing how the body moves is a good start. If you know that from a certain position, the body will only be able to move in a certain way or side, you are better prepared for what might possibly come your way.

We also develop our Rasa to attain a level of 'feeling', but this isn't for everyone.

[Orang Jawa]

Knowing how the body moves is a good start. If you know that from a certain position, the body will only be able to move in a certain way or side, you are better prepared for what might possibly come your way.

We also develop our Rasa to attain a level of 'feeling', but this isn't for everyone.

Aha..Can you be more specific?
Wali, you have said that you practiced sparring frequently. In the scenario that I gave you, which part of the opponent's body are you looking for to determine what would be his next move?
I knew a little about Tapal and Rasa.
Tristan

[Gajah Silat]

Are you talking about signs prior to attack?

Spotting a feigned hit, or an obvious giveaway?

[Orang Jawa]

Are you talking about signs prior to attack?

Spotting a feigned hit, or an obvious giveaway?

Yes, indeed!
After the attack would be to late :)
The purpose of sambut is to familiarized and to detect how your opponent move or act. With that we would be able to determine what kind of strikes he would use.

[Gajah Silat]

Yes, indeed!
After the attack would be to late :)


Hahaha...ask a stupid question :D

Well, if we are starting from sambuts, physical giveaways can be given by the direction of pressure by both parties. This can not only giveaway the intent of an attack but can also prompt a response.

For instance if I am in a situation of gripping the attackers wrist and he pulls back he has just handed me some 'free' momentum for a hammer fist to his face. If he pushes in response to this, I go with it, twist the hips and bring my other forearm across, above his elbow.

Is this the stuff you mean, or are we talking a 'square off' situation on the street?

[Steve Perry]

I have a question for all of you...If I may
In learning silat or martial arts in general. How do you train your students and yourself to look for opponent's sign in a fight/sparr. Lets assume you and your opponent face to face with your left leg and his left leg in front.
Please tell me what to look for and why?
Thanks,
Tristan

How far away are you and your opponent, Brother Tristan? At a step-and-a-half, it's going to take him a little time to get to you, and at that range, we soft-focus -- look at everything and nothing in particular. He's got to move his feet to get to you, and at that range, it doesn't matter what he does with his tools.

A good player can fake his intent, so if you lock your vision onto his shoulders or chest, he might sucker you with a stutter-step and shift on his way in.

If he is outside his range, he can wave his hands all over the place and they aren't a threat, so no point in watching those. Nor his eyes or shoulders. It's what happens when he gets within range that matter, at which point, we figure we had better be doing something of our own to short-circuit whatever he has in mind.

If he is closer than a step-and-a-half, we should already be attacking, and if we are head of the speed/power curve, again, it doesn't much matter what he does -- he should be too late.

In theory, anyhow. Big difference between theory and practice.

Closer, once contact is made, it's going to be more about feel than vision, though I'm not up to that level of function yet ...

[Orang Jawa]

Thanks Bro Steve and Gajah!
Lets assume your opponent is about two feet, a close range, that's the distance we always practice in sambut or sparr.
It does not matter of how good silat player he was, his human body will not able to cover his intent, "if" you can look or detect his "blank"
Tristan

[tellner]

Thanks Bro Steve and Gajah!
Lets assume your opponent is about two feet, a close range, that's the distance we always practice in sambut or sparr.
It does not matter of how good silat player he was, his human body will not able to cover his intent, "if" you can look or detect his "blank"

Two feet away? That's well within arm's reach. You should be hitting him by then. If you aren't, he's hitting you and you need to react appropriately to get yourself out of the hole you're in and dig one for him. At that range feel becomes more and more important and vision less and less.

[Bobster]

I look for the presentation of several things, although they won't always manifest at once:

Before attack/engagement:

1: Sharp inhalation of breath
2: Shoulders raise slightly
3: body tenses slightly
4: opponent tries to jockey his position to a certian point (i.e. manuver for a better positional advantage)

These are major indicators of an incoming attack, and I look for them all. I have seen some peole who have to have things "just so" before they will attack; right leg leading, manuvering the body to the left, trap th eopponent's foot before entry, etc. So I look for these signs as indicators that the S is about to hit the F.

During an attack:

1:Shoulders/body continually raises elevation as opponent starts to stand on his toes.

This is what you see when two people clash and instead of using footwork to manuver around each other, they try to climb over the technique of each other. If one person catches on to this early, he can dupe the other into over-commiting his attack & putting his extremities too far out to save them before he realizes it. I see this most frequently with people who haven't learned to relax in combat yet.

2: Eyes close

BELIEVE IT OR NOT! I know of skilled players who, upon entry, actually close their eyes and launch from where they are, just praying to God something gets through. It's rare, but it DOES happen.

3: Holding their breath.

I didn't realize breathing was an advanced skill. As it turns out, I had very good teachers who taught me to breath all the way through the attack. Lots of people actually hold their breath during the exchange, and this sucks energy out of them more than anything else.

There are lots more, but these are the major things I look for, & teach my students to do as well.

[Narrue]

Well the time to attack would be when there is a gap in your opponent’s concentration. When someone is about to make a move there is usually a “gap” just before they do it, a split second (window). Detecting that gap though? Well that’s not so easy firstly but trying to not only detect the gap but understand exactly what they are about to do is even harder.
The full answer should involve both reading body language and using your instinct.

[Gajah Silat]

Yes Bobster, absolutely right, learning to relax in combat can be a difficult hurdle. This was always one of my biggest problems...I've since learnt to go with the flow :)

Anyway, picking up on the non verbal cues is something that happens instinctively in a real situation. We sub-conciously pick up on lots of stuff that we don't actually think about.

Changes in the opponents breathing, skin tone, muscle tension.....

Now I don't know if some people have a more finely tuned 'spider sense' naturally or if this is something that develops with experience. Probably a bit of both!

I'm sure most of us have felt our spider sense tingling in that dodgy club just before a fight breaks out. I'm also sure most of us have had friends who were blissfully unaware of the tension & would have strolled right into it...

However, I'm still not quite sure what brother Tristan is actually getting at.

Intent to attack, or intent to attack in a specific manner?

[Narrue]

I'm sure most of us have felt our spider sense tingling in that dodgy club just before a fight breaks out. I'm also sure most of us have had friends who were blissfully unaware of the tension & would have strolled right into it...


Knowing when something is about to kick off is not something everyone has got.

I think that lack of self awareness is a modern disease, im not joking I really believe it. I think it’s caused by people living in densely populated environments (they are used to someone invading their private space like in a crowed bus, train, club etc) and feeling too safe all the time. How many times when you’re in a pub, club or on the streets will someone walk out in front of you or bump into you, they can’t see you or feel you. Also you’re walking behind someone and they have no idea you are there. So what’s happened to the human sensitivity?

If a person does not even have that basic level of sensitivity how will they be able to know if or how they are going to be attacked?

[realitychecker]

I have to go with Mr. Perry on that one. When the "S" is flying through the fan @ 200 mph/kph (?) I have never really noticed ( or had time to ) the subtlties that Bobbe and you guys mentioned. But, I may not be to that level yet. Peripheraly picking up moving objects without 'fixing' on them seems the way to go. I'm not really to experienced in Kali, but isn't that a focus in drills from most of those systems? Understanding distance and the space you yourself encompass allows you to "be the director" or "the bull fighter" as Guru Plinck says. Otherwise, you are "one beat off :confused: "!

Try not fixing on a partner while doing sambuts and turn yourself to 45deg (or have the opponent come from that angle or greater) and notice how your jurus (training) automaticly takes over. If you focus on the oppontent (in sparring) you will be to busy trying to anticipate 'subtle movements' instead of being ready to react?
But I, too, "might be wrong" (???)
Thanks for the advice though!
JR

[tellner]

The difference is that Steve is talking about what to do when it's time to do. Bobbe is talking about how to recognize when something is about to happen. Or as they say "The most important part of fighting is knowing when the fight has started." The subtle pre-attack cues are important because they let you know to be ready for the attack and deal with it, preferably by attacking in your timing. After it starts, well, you've learned everything you were going to from them.

[Steve Perry]

Thanks Bro Steve and Gajah!
Lets assume your opponent is about two feet, a close range, that's the distance we always practice in sambut or sparr.
It does not matter of how good silat player he was, his human body will not able to cover his intent, "if" you can look or detect his "blank"
Tristan

Our teacher has started teaching to how to read an opponent -- marking the way he stands, how he shifts his weight, whether he is in position for a kick, what kind it might be, like that.

It is a most useful skill, but not one at which I am adept. In some cases, now and again, I can figure out an incoming attack by the set, but so far, only when they are fairly straight-forward. Somebody good at drawing a response, or offering a deception, or advancing or retarding his timing -- can screw my perception up, even when I know that's what he's doing.

We have some attack sambuts that change the line, so that, in one case, what starts as a punch to the head ends up as one to the belly or groin, and it is very deceptive. All of the senior students know the technique and we can still sneak it past each other a fair amount of the time. There is an additional elbow once you are in, and if the defender doesn't confound the attack by moving, either in or aslant, if he just stands there and tries to block, he will get tagged by at least one of the strikes. Because we do half-beat timing with these, trying to bat them down once they get moving is unwise. I can't do it, and neither can anybody else in our class.

Unless he is the Flash, a defender can't react fast enough to block all three. He's going to be a half-beat behind.

So far, what I've learned works best is, rather than try to anticipate which tool an attacker chooses to use against me, not to concern myself with that. If I can control the distance and get to my set before he can arrive and do what I want to do, it doesn't matter what he has in mind -- he isn't going to get there.

I realize this is very basic silat, but I'm not trained enough to do the really advanced stuff, and I don't know that I'll live long enough to learn it ...

[taoizt]

I have a question for all of you...If I may
In learning silat or martial arts in general. How do you train your students and yourself to look for opponent's sign in a fight/sparr. Lets assume you and your opponent face to face with your left leg and his left leg in front.
Please tell me what to look for and why?
Thanks,
Tristan

I was always told 'react at the blink of an eye' and 'never place yourself in a certain stance (pasang) at the start'. No matter if the opponent is feinting! The hard part is cultivating that trigger so that you can react fast enough, thats why sparring and creating this instant reaction are very hard to combine.

Greetings,
Taoizt

[Orang Jawa]

Brother Steve said: Our teacher has started teaching to how to read an opponent -- marking the way he stands, how he shifts his weight, whether he is in position for a kick, what kind it might be, like that.
****************
That's excellent! That is Sambut 101.
IMHO. the most important thing is to learn to detect your opponent intention. In the scenario I gave you, your opponenent standing with his left foot in front. Pay serious attention to his LEFT SHOULDER. Why? Because he can only throw a jab without moving his left shoulder.
And I could be wrong too,
Tristan

[Wali]

Brother Steve said: Our teacher has started teaching to how to read an opponent -- marking the way he stands, how he shifts his weight, whether he is in position for a kick, what kind it might be, like that.
****************
That's excellent! That is Sambut 101.
IMHO. the most important thing is to learn to detect your opponent intention. In the scenario I gave you, your opponenent standing with his left foot in front. Pay serious attention to his LEFT SHOULDER. Why? Because he can only throw a jab without moving his left shoulder.
And I could be wrong too,
Tristan
He could also throw a front kick with his left leg and not move his shoulder...

[Orang Jawa]

He could also throw a front kick with his left leg and not move his shoulder...

Huh??????
I really like to see this....
Would you look in the mirror and see what have you done? What kind of front kick did you do? Are you fighting from cat stances? I'm so sorry, I'm only a beginer in sparr..would you elaborate more?
If you don't move your shoulder while kicking from the fighting stance than, I have to bow a respect to you as PENDEKAR! :)
Tristan

[Wali]

Huh??????
I really like to see this....
Would you look in the mirror and see what have you done? What kind of front kick did you do? Are you fighting from cat stances? I'm so sorry, I'm only a beginer in sparr..would you elaborate more?
If you don't move your shoulder while kicking from the fighting stance than, I have to bow a respect to you as PENDEKAR! :)
Tristan
I am nowhere near pendekar, I don't need to be in order to throw a front/snap kick without moving my shoulder. If you are referring to the position of having most of the weight on your front leg, then this is different, but that position wouldn't be recommended to begin with.

[SilatSeeker]

In my rather paltry experience in the arts, I've noticed that the more experienced your opponnent - the better they are at causing you to "mis-read" their intentions.

My 77 year old teacher was recently sparring a 30 year old - experienced at sparring full contact, boxing, etc. The 77 year old got a shot in on the youngster that left us all laughing. The guy never saw it. He couldn't even figure out how it got in. We had to replay the tape. The teacher had manipulated angle,distance and his focus all in one subtle combination.

I will however pay closer attention to the shoulder of the lead leg in the future and see if it is a master key to percieving intention. I need all the help I can get.

But if I end up with a smushed nose and a black eye - I'm not going to be happy - I'm Not Pretty enough already.

[Fireshadow]

Here's an idea for controlling your opponents timing. Play with it and see if you can figure out what it does and you can make it work. Assuming your opponent is circling around when he spars. Set a shoulder angle and as your opponent circles you, do not change your shoulder angle. You can close the gap with your opponent and have your shoulder lines already set. It may feel uncomfortable at first, as you could be engaging your opponent at an odd angle (especially when you are used to "squaring up"), your juru tools should take care of that. You should engage your opponent at the point he/she is about to get to your shoulder line or at your center line (or somewhere in between). Make sure you track with your eyes. Bart

[Orang Jawa]

I am nowhere near pendekar, I don't need to be in order to throw a front/snap kick without moving my shoulder. If you are referring to the position of having most of the weight on your front leg, then this is different, but that position wouldn't be recommended to begin with.

In fighting stance, your weight should be 50-50, right? Are you telling me any different? Mr. Pendekar Wali, if you are in 50-50 in which is recomended for fighting stance, if you do a front snap kick without moving your shoulder even a bit. What good that kick for? Try kick the bag with your weight 50-50. and let someone hold your shoulder (because its obvious you can't feel your shoulder move) than if you are successfull to do that without moving your shoulder, please tell of how good and hard your kick is. :bang:
Otherwise...you are wasting my worthless time :)
Tristan

[realitychecker]

Fireshadow,

Can you please elaborate on "tracking the opponent with your eyes"? Also, when you say "set your shoulder angle", is that in relation to yourself or in relation to the opponent? If the opponent is "circling" are you turning with the opponent, or stationary with a "set" shoulderline?
Thanks,
JR
:bang:

[Wali]

In fighting stance, your weight should be 50-50, right? Are you telling me any different? Mr. Pendekar Wali, if you are in 50-50 in which is recomended for fighting stance, if you do a front snap kick without moving your shoulder even a bit. What good that kick for? Try kick the bag with your weight 50-50. and let someone hold your shoulder (because its obvious you can't feel your shoulder move) than if you are successfull to do that without moving your shoulder, please tell of how good and hard your kick is. :bang:
Otherwise...you are wasting my worthless time :)
Tristan
I was limited to your postures constraints. Whether the kick has any power or not doesn't invalidate the fact that a kick can be executed without moving the shoulder. It doesn't take much power for a snap kick to the groin to bring a man down.

If it was from any posture, we are in constant movement all the time, so the shoulders would always be moving, but wouldn't give a clue as to how the attack was going to take place. Our system places heavy emphasis on the 'gelek', so coiling and twisting is at the centre of each movement.

Also, we don't have a 'fighting stance' per se. ANY posture is a 'fighting stance' and a good silat man shouldn't have to re-adjust to any fixed position or stance.

[Orang Jawa]

I was limited to your postures constraints. Whether the kick has any power or not doesn't invalidate the fact that a kick can be executed without moving the shoulder. It doesn't take much power for a snap kick to the groin to bring a man down.

If it was from any posture, we are in constant movement all the time, so the shoulders would always be moving, but wouldn't give a clue as to how the attack was going to take place. Our system places heavy emphasis on the 'gelek', so coiling and twisting is at the centre of each movement.

Also, we don't have a 'fighting stance' per se. ANY posture is a 'fighting stance' and a good silat man shouldn't have to re-adjust to any fixed position or stance.

Hmm, I really to see you move, can you send me a video of yourself doing that? Otherwise you are being dishonest and full of ....

[Orang Jawa]

Mr. Wali,
Kick 101, you need to know how to transfer your weight before you kick, some of the advance silat players can do it at the same time. Kicking is just like stepping. The only time you do not need to transfer your weight is when your weight is all ready in the back leg and you are kicking with the front leg.
Shoulder is always in active moves, if you don't move your shoulder than you becomes stagnate. How you move without moving your shoulder?
In the scenario I gave you, your left shoulder is in the front....
Think before you answer this. This is not about silat or myth, this is about body mechanics.
But again you are the professional fighter, in that case, I could be wrong too :)

[Wali]

Mr. Wali,
Kick 101, you need to know how to transfer your weight before you kick, some of the advance silat players can do it at the same time. Kicking is just like stepping. The only time you do not need to transfer your weight is when your weight is all ready in the back leg and you are kicking with the front leg.
Shoulder is always in active moves, if you don't move your shoulder than you becomes stagnate. How you move without moving your shoulder?
In the scenario I gave you, your left shoulder is in the front....
Think before you answer this. This is not about silat or myth, this is about body mechanics.
But again you are the professional fighter, in that case, I could be wrong too :)
It isn't necessary to move the shoulder when transferring weight from one leg to another. Again I repeat, you set the scenario and the posture, and I said you could kick from THAT position without having to move the shoulder. Whether the kick delivers as much power as by not moving the shoulder, that's another issue.

I never stated that we moved without moving our shoulders. This was your fabrication.

You can view some of the walisongo silat at www.reelcombat.com. This is a promotional site, but it's the only video link I can provide at this time. Perhaps you might have a link of your own that I may take a look at? This way we can better understand our respective systems, and stop confusions from flaring up posts.

[Orang Jawa]

Wali,
How do you transfer your weight without moving your shoulder?
Unless you can demonstrate what you are saying to me, please don't make a fool of yourself in this forum...Don't your realized everyone is seeing you digging yourself deeper? :)
If you fight from cat stance, that the only way you can kick with your left leg without moving your left shoulder. Is that the way you fight?
In order to move smoothly, you must maintain 50-50, If your don't, you have to make an effort to transfer your weight. In real fight that nano second can mean everything.
BTW, I don't need to see your www.reel combat.com , I've been in real combat, I'm a combat vietnam veteran. As far as I know, anyone claimed that they teach combat, most of the time, they never been in combat themselves. Snake oil everyone?
Please check my website: www.silat-video.com
May be too elementary to you, though.
Tristan

[Wali]

Wali,
How do you transfer your weight without moving your shoulder?
Unless you can demonstrate what you are saying to me, please don't make a fool of yourself in this forum...Don't your realized everyone is seeing you digging yourself deeper? :)
You have no manners, and an ovious axe to grind. As to your question, here is the simple answer. Stand up, weight 50/50. Now march on your feet on the spot. There. Weight transferred, no shoulder moverment. Do I need to draw you a picture?


If you fight from cat stance, that the only way you can kick with your left leg without moving your left shoulder. Is that the way you fight?
In order to move smoothly, you must maintain 50-50, If your don't, you have to make an effort to transfer your weight. In real fight that nano second can mean everything.

Please don't try and tell me that you maintain a 50/50 weigth distribution throughout. The simple act of STEPPING means you transfer the bulk of your weight onto any leg at any given time. Unless you guys jump like grasshoppers in movement. THAT I would pay to see.


BTW, I don't need to see your www.reel combat.com , I've been in real combat, I'm a combat vietnam veteran. As far as I know, anyone claimed that they teach combat, most of the time, they never been in combat themselves. Snake oil everyone?

My, my. First you ask for a video, when given one, you jump on your high horse and proclaim to the world about your combat experience. I knew that all the "just my worthless opinion" nonsense you put at the end of your posts is just false humility. Perhaps if you took a look, you might see what real silat looks and moves like.


Please check my website: www.silat-video.com
May be too elementary to you, though.
Tristan

Took a look. Not impressed. Looks like Karate to me. I guess all those formative years in your primary art are hard to let go. Also, your student let you take him down with your flying gunting. Wouldn't work on a non-compliant opponent.

Well, it seems to me that you have set the tone for this thread, one which I tried to avoid in the 'silat sparring' thread.

Take a look at the tone, aggressiveness and sheer malice of some of your posts, in case you start playing the victim and start complaining that I am being abusive or rude. I would have expected a little more adab from a silat teacher such as yourself.

Just my worthless opinion.

EDIT - After re-reading through my replies, I was tempted to delete them, but it had to be said. You have brought disharmony to a silat forum where it didn't really exist previously. I won't be contributing to this thread anymore, regardless of your reply, so I wouldn't waste your time with one.

[Orang Jawa]

You have no manners, and an ovious axe to grind. As to your question, here is the simple answer. Stand up, weight 50/50. Now march on your feet on the spot. There. Weight transferred, no shoulder moverment. Do I need to draw you a picture?

Stupid is stupid does!
If you are in 50-50. your weight is distributed equal. at any time you transfered your weight to either leg, your shoulder would be move, even a little. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot!

Please don't try and tell me that you maintain a 50/50 weigth distribution throughout. The simple act of STEPPING means you transfer the bulk of your weight onto any leg at any given time. Unless you guys jump like grasshoppers in movement. THAT I would pay to see.

I can tell you now Wali, be a man, tell your real name to everyone, have you ever fight? Or you only the wannabe? The key boad warrior. I'm asking you a simple question. In the scenario I gave you, and you confused yourself and then digging the hole deeper and deeper. 50-50 is to start and most completion enede into front stance or horse stance,etc., and then back to 50-50. Tell me again, have you ever fight? :bang:

My, my. First you ask for a video, when given one, you jump on your high horse and proclaim to the world about your combat experience. I knew that all the "just my worthless opinion" nonsense you put at the end of your posts is just false humility. Perhaps if you took a look, you might see what real silat looks and moves like.

I want to see you doing it not everyone else because you have the biggest mouth. Did anyone in that website have ever been in combat? If not, why do they proclaimed and teaches real combat? :bang:


Took a look. Not impressed. Looks like Karate to me. I guess all those formative years in your primary art are hard to let go. Also, your student let you take him down with your flying gunting. Wouldn't work on a non-compliant opponent.

Thank you, in my tournament day, people like you don't last a minute with me in the ring...again have you ever fight?
BTW, I studied Shotokan Karate and Iaijutsu Omori Ryu longer than your life. Some of the video shoot was at the time when I was compare and contrasted between Japanese and Indonesian silat. I think my student put the word "waza" on it. :bang:
No one at that time of seminar have known what I'm trying to do. We never plan those. Bob Orlando took the video. If people like Bob Orlando and Stevan Plinck and other who have seen me perform consider me a silat student. Who you are to judge me? Have you ever fight Wali?

Well, it seems to me that you have set the tone for this thread, one which I tried to avoid in the 'silat sparring' thread.

I do too, I'm trying to be polite but this time you cross the line. You have no manner, you are talking to the elder like talking to the begger. Where is your adat and hormat? Do you really learning silat? Do you know sopan santun is?

Take a look at the tone, aggressiveness and sheer malice of some of your posts, in case you start playing the victim and start complaining that I am being abusive or rude. I would have expected a little more adab from a silat teacher such as yourself.

You are talking Adat? Gee.....I'm older than you, I have more experience than you, I have an underware older than you, but yet you are talking to me without manner. And you expect me to bow down to you. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot!

Just my worthless opinion.

Yes in deed !

EDIT - After re-reading through my replies, I was tempted to delete them, but it had to be said. You have brought disharmony to a silat forum where it didn't really exist previously. I won't be contributing to this thread anymore, regardless of your reply, so I wouldn't waste your time with one.


Learn to listen and listen to learn.
Run to your mommy and hide, does not work in the real world!

[Fireshadow]

Realitychecker,
"Tracking the opponent with your eyes" may not be the best way to put it. Many times with silat jurus I see guys (including myself) looking down too much or "hunkering down". It is instinctive to "hide" your mandibles between your shoulders and not have much neck flexibility or movement. This may be great for boxers, but it isn't so great for advanced silat practitioners. "Swiveling" the head (without turning the shoulder line) should be practiced within the jurus. "Swiveling" and an upright head position helps with multiple opponents and peripheral vision. Any ideas what BN jurus this should be empasized on? As far as seeing stuff, try this. Check and see if you and your training partners scan the room when you do puter, or if you either look at the floor or skip past the stuff in between or both. Your eyes should "cut" the room in half (keep your head up). I had to get on one of my students the other day because after I instructed him on this he still looked down and "missed" me when he did puter and I was 5 feet away. This seems simple but it is important.
As far as "setting the shoulder angle" goes. I would recommend not clashing with your opponent and having your shoulder line parallel with his. If your shoulders are parallel, you will have a much more difficult time blocking and very difficult lines to "set" your opponent on.
If your opponent is circling, don't be stationary. Track them down and force them to engage in your timing. Do lock in your shoulders and try it out. You should feel the depok and sempok being used to move towards your opponent. It will probably feel very awkward at first, because you won't be "squaring up" to your opponent and will have to start using some different juru tools. However, your opponent should feel seriously "uncomfortable" with the speed and efficiency you are closing on him with. As I stated, you should engage your opponent at the point where he is between your centerline and front shoulder line. In time you should be a little more "free" with your shoulders, but control them and work "with" your partners and feel it out to begin with.

Bart

[Kejawen]

Salam Hormat,
Forgive me for stepping in the middle but i think i better do. Wali and Orang Jawa, can u two be at peace? I hate seeing silat practitioners against eachother. U see, we have to remember that our fighting styles descended from the same continent, same archipelago. Back then in the past, rivalries against perguruan is all around and this brought down our race till the colonies stepped in. What we should do is actually Unite and Fight, Together We're Undefeatable. So if can we make peace with eachother and bond our hearts and Might as ONE. When we exchange thought of our art with eachother, we could contribute to the improvement of silat. I hope you guys understand what i'm trying to tell you. Forgive me for my intervention.

Salam Persilatan

[tellner]

There are many ways to use the eyes in a fight. Most of them are bad :)

Seriously, a soft focus is what you should be trying for. If you stare with a hard focus you begin the bad stress-response loop. Tunnel vision leads to tachypsychia (weird time dilation effects), hypervigilance, auditory exclusion and all the rest. In a fight, especially against more than one person, this can get you in serious trouble. Besides, peripheral vision is best at detecting motion. Every really good martial arts teacher I've been exposed to teaches this one way or another. When we went through a period of more sparring before the current back-to-basics phase it was interesting and a bit spooky to see people looking very intently at nothing in particular - an intense soft focus if you will.

Since our brains attach so much importance to vision it is easy to use it inappropriately. Bart alludes to this when he talks about the tendency to look at what your body is doing during juru-juru practice. You should be using other senses to keep track of what your body is doing.

[Orang Jawa]

Salam Hormat,
Forgive me for stepping in the middle but i think i better do. Wali and Orang Jawa, can u two be at peace? I hate seeing silat practitioners against eachother. U see, we have to remember that our fighting styles descended from the same continent, same archipelago. Back then in the past, rivalries against perguruan is all around and this brought down our race till the colonies stepped in. What we should do is actually Unite and Fight, Together We're Undefeatable. So if can we make peace with eachother and bond our hearts and Might as ONE. When we exchange thought of our art with eachother, we could contribute to the improvement of silat. I hope you guys understand what i'm trying to tell you. Forgive me for my intervention.

Salam Persilatan

Thanks Kejawen,
It's one thing to develop a strong convictions, it's quite another to hold that convictions even when its appears foolish in the eyes of the world.
In my culture, I grow up learn to respect each other. especially the elder. We even use different language and different body motion when speak to the elder. Even though, I had spent two third of my life in the USA. I still do. I'm still bother with younger age speaks boisterous to an elder. Especially someone who sign his name as a Saint and from silat aliran "Nine muslim saints". I have never heard of the silat system before but that's was not the issue.

The issue was, he denied everything, but yet when I went to their website. I saw everything that he denied doing was there. Ie. They standing 50-50 before they started the preplan fight, their shoulder move, etc.

One more thing, combat is about life and death. One should not use that word if they never been there, let alone teach them how to survive in combat. Do you want to learn how to do a free fall parachuting from someone who never jump from the airplane? Yes they can teach how to jump, but they credibility is in question.
Respect the elder opinons, because most of their opinion have been shape by a lifetime of experience and thought, just as yours have.
Peace and Be Well,
Tristan

[Wali]

Thanks Kejawen,
It's one thing to develop a strong convictions, it's quite another to hold that convictions even when its appears foolish in the eyes of the world.
In my culture, I grow up learn to respect each other. especially the elder. We even use different language and different body motion when speak to the elder. Even though, I had spent two third of my life in the USA. I still do. I'm still bother with younger age speaks boisterous to an elder. Especially someone who sign his name as a Saint and from silat aliran "Nine muslim saints". I have never heard of the silat system before but that's was not the issue.

Tristan, I don't want to re-ignite this thread, so will try and keep it as simple and polite as possible. My example was purely to show that it was possible to kick without moving the shoulder. I made it clear that this wasn't something I would personally do, as the power would be greatly decreased, and it's not a practical movement. It was purely to indicate that it was possible, not that it was practical. If convictions seem foolish to "the eyes of the world" (In your opinion only, as you misinterpreted what I said), then so be it.

Also, I respect my elders, wherever they may be. However, they must act in such a way and earn that respect, or at a minimum, act in such a way that they don't lose it. Simply being older doesn't entitle anyone to the respect of another, specially if their tone and conduct doesn't merit it. Again, I will put this latest incident as a misunderstanding, and a translation issue.

Having spent 2/3 of your life in the US, I imagined that you would have seen & understood what I was trying to say. Again, I will put this down to 'lost in translation', and nothing more.


The issue was, he denied everything, but yet when I went to their website. I saw everything that he denied doing was there. Ie. They standing 50-50 before they started the preplan fight, their shoulder move, etc.

This issue was a non-starter, as explained previously. I denied nothing. I stated that you could kick without moving the shoulder, not necessarily that you should.... as previously explained several times already,


One more thing, combat is about life and death. One should not use that word if they never been there, let alone teach them how to survive in combat. Do you want to learn how to do a free fall parachuting from someone who never jump from the airplane? Yes they can teach how to jump, but they credibility is in question.
Respect the elder opinons, because most of their opinion have been shape by a lifetime of experience and thought, just as yours have.
Peace and Be Well,
Tristan
Here is where you are making large (erroneous) assumptions. On what basis do you make your claim that we have no real combat experience? What makes you think this? You would be surprised, but not on this forum to boast or brag.

Please note that I mentioned that this was a promotional site. The site is also called REELCombat, and not REALcombat. This is a double-entender, symbolising combat for the screen (TV, movies...) hence REEL, as in film reel.

Anyway, in a nutshell, ego to one side, I am willing to put this 2nd incident to one side and move on. I don't do politics or internet wars.

[Gajah Silat]

Woah,

You two guys got off to a bad start ;)

The Wali Songo were 9 Sufi saints/missionaries who spread Islam throughout Java. I think for the most part, Javanese Islam still represents the more tolerant Islamic ideals that pre-date this modern 'Wahabism', but don't get me started on that one :bang: .

Still, how this relates to Wali Songo Silat I don't know. However, when it comes to Silat one can be a White Dove, a Faithful Heart, a Shield of the Self, a Village in Java, a Magazine, or even 'our' Chained Tiger :D Not to mention the other 2 thousand. So in context, 9 Saint Silat isn't too much of an unusual name.

Pak OJ, I have personaly been told by a very experienced Silat practitioner that Steve Benitez is an exceptional Silat practitioner and very fast by all accounts. I have no reason to doubt this persons word.

Um, time to go :love:

[Orang Jawa]

GS said: You two guys got off to a bad start
*****************
You got that right GS. :)
You know what, I bet when someday Wali and I meet. We will ended go to the Indonesian restaurant in Linchester Square...:) And carry this conversation very politely over the food. We both very pasionate about our things. I too feel that we have a bad start, Its water over the bridge, right Wali? I don't remember a things!
We used this saying often many moons ago: " I do not recall Senator! We never been there either?"
Peace and Be Well,
Tristan

[Wali]

GS said: You two guys got off to a bad start
*****************
You got that right GS. :)
You know what, I bet when someday Wali and I meet. We will ended go to the Indonesian restaurant in Linchester Square...:) And carry this conversation very politely over the food. We both very pasionate about our things. I too feel that we have a bad start, Its water over the bridge, right Wali? I don't remember a things!We used this saying often many moons ago: " I do not recall Senator! We never been there either?"
Peace and Be Well,
Tristan

I can hardly remember what I had for breakfast, let alone hold a grudge. All's good here...

I'll hold you to that Indonesian meal someday... :)

God Bless...

[Bobster]

That's better. Thank you both.

[Steve Perry]

Selamat, Wali --

I think we had a discussion about this style once on another group. Somebody posted the link and asked what we thought of it. As I recall, a lot of us thought what was being shown was kinda flashy -- designed to draw in new players -- rather than impress old pesilat guys. Plus there was a little hyperbole in the guru's credit list. Nothing major, but just enough to make a bell go off ...

As I recall, there was a link to another video by your teacher that offered a better demonstration of basics -- I can't seem to find it at the moment, but I recall it offered more meat and less sizzle, and was more representative of the teacher's ability, including some nice groundwork.

[realitychecker]

Realitychecker,
"Tracking the opponent with your eyes" may not be the best way to put it. Many times with silat jurus I see guys (including myself) looking down too much or "hunkering down". It is instinctive to "hide" your mandibles between your shoulders and not have much neck flexibility or movement. This may be great for boxers, but it isn't so great for advanced silat practitioners. "Swiveling" the head (without turning the shoulder line) should be practiced within the jurus. "Swiveling" and an upright head position helps with multiple opponents and peripheral vision. Any ideas what BN jurus this should be empasized on? As far as seeing stuff, try this. Check and see if you and your training partners scan the room when you do puter, or if you either look at the floor or skip past the stuff in between or both. Your eyes should "cut" the room in half (keep your head up). I had to get on one of my students the other day because after I instructed him on this he still looked down and "missed" me when he did puter and I was 5 feet away. This seems simple but it is important.
As far as "setting the shoulder angle" goes. I would recommend not clashing with your opponent and having your shoulder line parallel with his. If your shoulders are parallel, you will have a much more difficult time blocking and very difficult lines to "set" your opponent on.
If your opponent is circling, don't be stationary. Track them down and force them to engage in your timing. Do lock in your shoulders and try it out. You should feel the depok and sempok being used to move towards your opponent. It will probably feel very awkward at first, because you won't be "squaring up" to your opponent and will have to start using some different juru tools. However, your opponent should feel seriously "uncomfortable" with the speed and efficiency you are closing on him with. As I stated, you should engage your opponent at the point where he is between your centerline and front shoulder line. In time you should be a little more "free" with your shoulders, but control them and work "with" your partners and feel it out to begin with.

Bart

Thank you very much Bart and Todd. I discovered just how much time that I spend actually 'watching' what I do when I solo train. What I mean is, I seem to spend a lot of time (more than I thought) watching my feet and lower body in general to make sure, or check my lanka reference. That is a bad habit. I DO, however, track with my eyes and head instead of "hunkering down" between my shoulders. I have picked up that where the head goes, the body will follow is not just a rule of thumb for knocking out an opponent. My current understanding leads me to believe that the head turn and eye tracking aid your structure and skeletal alignment, improves and aides in 'torque' generation, and increases your field of vision. I also learned a while back to tuck your chin down so your head is angled foward. I believe that it increases your peripheral vision a few degrees(?).

Guru Bart, can you expand upon the shoulderline with a moving or circling opponent a bit further? My understanding is; when your shoulders are parallel to the opponent, you are "equal"(=). Making the proper angle (/-) puts you in controll of "your line". Is that close? What are ways of expounding on that in training? I understand that BN teaches it's sambuts as 'positional "laboratories" '. Is that correct?
I appreciate everyone's help, and questions. I hope that we can all get along long enough for me to learn a little more. ;)
Thanks,
JR

[Fireshadow]

RealityChecker,
At first you do have to "watch" the jurus, this lets you check yourself and get them right. And every once in awhile you have to go back to watching them. Once you have the jurus right then you can begin training them.
Good calls on structure, skeletal alignment, and torque. I wouldn't tuck the chin at all as I believe this decreases your peripheral vision (you'll have to make your own call) and it definitely decreases neck flexibility and movement. Hopefully, your jurus are teaching you head movement? The head must be free to pivot, if not, you will pivot with your shoulders and mess up your shoulder lines. Does this make sense?
You ask me how to expound upon shoulder position in training. My best answer as a teacher is to be literal and be strict. It's easy to compensate with strength or "changing a technique" when it's easier, but what are you learning?
I'll try to go a little more in depth later, gotto go.
Bart

[Fireshadow]

RealityChecker,
Speaking further on neck movement, neck flexibility (having your head upright and in the center), and the puter motion; picture a top spinning.... I was going to explain, but instead, I think I will ask, "what can you draw from this?"
As far as being "equal to" an opponent, hmmm.... Setting a shoulder angle maximizes your capabilities. It's all about you. You always have lines. They travel with you. You can bring your opponent to your lines or you can move your lines to match your opponent. Inexperienced players tend to try to manipulate their opponent to their lines and move their lines at the same time (trying to mimic everyone else but don't know exactly what they are doing). Intermediate players tend to adapt their own body so that they can put their lines in position for a convenient sweep. The more advanced players bring their opponents to their environment or move their environment if it is convenient or switch environments. When you force (draw, whatever) your opponent into your environment it has many advantages. Can you visualize the different groups of players? This should help if you don't already know it: your shoulder lines are established as soon as you make contact with your opponent.
As far as the sambuts being "positional laboratories", keep in mind that you are not looking at scientific theory, but rather functional science. Certainly, you can work the sambuts, work a lot of drills off the sambuts, and experiment with different techniques, but remain strict and specific with your training (use the science, principals, training, angles, langkahs,etc.) BN is based on formulas and equations that should have definable and repeatable results. Your personal roadmap is not so good if you just have one way to get somewhere. Hopefully, this makes some sense to you. Feel free to ask more specific questions on the sambuts and I will answer if I can.
As far as soft-focusing the eyes, I know it is very useful, but the main thing is to not get sidetracked. You need to soft-focus and to hard-focus at different times. Hard-focus is important for precision and is trained in the jurus. I would say that most people have a tendency to soft-focus during jurus. The mind tends to
soft-focus, too (thoughts tend to drift). That is not training the jurus.
This is the progression 1. Train the jurus so that they are precise (motions are correct.) 2. Train the jurus and mind so that you are focused and disciplined on the task at hand (whatever you are doing with the current motion), hard-focusing the eyes is an important component here. 3. Train the jurus, focus, and recognize outside stimuli (start with something stationary then perhaps a person moving around the room); do this maintaining precise jurus, not losing your place, and not getting sidetracked by the outside stimuli. Intense focus and
multi-tasking rolled into one (if that's what you call hours of training). 4. Rinse (because you will probably be very sweaty) and repeat! Most people dabble in step 1 and move on to technique. I see constant instruction and being overseen as being important for this progression, but maybe because that is what works best for me (done both, long distance learning is okay ). You do what you gotta do. I'm sure you know what I mean.
"Old school" training isn't about how hard you hit the ground or how fast you can go. It is also about [I]mindful repetition, understanding, and making the mind right. Here is where I would like to go off on my tirade about seminar learning, the student-teacher relationship, what is "real" training, blah-blah-blah, but I won't. Please all, refrain from any sarcastic remarks. Thanks.
Bart

[Steve Perry]

RealityChecker,
As far as soft-focusing the eyes, I know it is very useful, but the main thing is to not get sidetracked. You need to soft-focus and to hard-focus at different times. Hard-focus is important for precision and is trained in the jurus. I would say that most people have a tendency to soft-focus during jurus. The mind tends to soft-focus, too (thoughts tend to drift). That is not training the jurus. This is the progression 1. Train the jurus so that they are precise (motions are correct.) 2. Train the jurus and mind so that you are focused and disciplined on the task at hand (whatever you are doing with the current motion), hard-focusing the eyes is an important component here. 3. Train the jurus, focus, and recognize outside stimuli (start with something stationary then perhaps a person moving around the room); do this maintaining precise jurus, not losing your place, and not getting sidetracked by the outside stimuli. Intense focus andmulti-tasking rolled into one (if that's what you call hours of training). 4. Rinse (because you will probably be very sweaty) and repeat! Most people dabble in step 1 and move on to technique. I see constant instruction and being overseen as being important for this progression, but maybe because that is what works best for me (done both, long distance learning is okay ). You do what you gotta do. I'm sure you know what I mean.
"Old school" training isn't about how hard you hit the ground or how fast you can go. It is also about [I]mindful repetition, understanding, and making the mind right. Here is where I would like to go off on my tirade about seminar learning, the student-teacher relationship, what is "real" training, blah-blah-blah, but I won't. Please all, refrain from any sarcastic remarks. Thanks.
Bart

Interesting. I think maybe the terminolgy regarding soft-focus and hard-focus is less ambigious when referring to sight than when speaking about the mind. Mindless repetition of djurus is not as effective as doing them with intent and precision, but once you learn the motions, thinking (in the cognitive sense) is not a good habit to develop. Learning a move so that it becomes second nature needs to bypass the conscious mind for it to become effective. Thinking is too slow. (Or as Stevan quotes Pendekar Paul, If you think, you stink.)

This is not to say that "mindfulness" is wrong, only that it doesn't mean the same thing as "thinking" about your moves.

If you had to think about each move necessary to walk normally, you would be a very slow walker.

Difference, maybe, between a brain state that is characterized by beta waves (cognitive thinking) and alpha waves (relaxed.) Being in the zone is likened to zen, or no-mind, wherein the doer is the deed. This is a better place to be than trying to decide what you are going to do for a high punch on the right side. The speed of thought coupled with reaction time will put you behind the power curve.

For us, this is the purpose of the djurus -- to develop tools that pop up automatically to take care of the necessary business without having to think about it. A reflex is faster than thought and while you never get as quick with a learned motion as an innate reflex, the closer you get, the faster you will be. Speed isn't everything, of course, position is more important, but while you don't necessarily have to be fast, being really slow isn't helpful, either.

Peripheral vision is not affected by the position of your head per se; looking up or down gives you a different swath of vision. Sometimes looking down will be more useful because of the angle of peripheral vision. You might want to be aware of exactly where somebody's feet are in relation to you -- whatever shoulders or torsos do to give away motion, if an an opponent is outside kicking range and you stand still, the only way for him to get closer requires that he moves his feet.

My experience is that if you hard-focus on a technique that is incoming, and the attacker knows anything and realizes this, you are screwed, because the hand might not be quicker than the eye, but the eye is easily fooled. See nothing but the knife, you will get cut by somebody who knows how to use it. Nail your vision to my right hand, it will be my left that gets through.

When I say soft-focus, I mean see the big picture rather than narrowing my attention to a fist or an elbow. The Japanese concept of zanshin is probably not too far off. Todd pointed this out as being useful with multiple opponents -- focus on one to the exclusion of the others, you could get surprised ...

[Fireshadow]

RealityChecker,
How do you drive a car? If you exclusively soft-focus, it doesn't work right. If you try to hard-focus, it doesn't work right. You have to do both in the right amounts for the moment, and neither exclusively. Think of a beginning driver or when you were a beginning driver. Your eye use can get out of proportion easily. Of course, if you get tense, the tunnel vision creeps in. If you are driving down a residential street, and you notice what could be a child playing off to the side (or an awesome house, hot chick, cool car, etc.), you will immediately hard-focus (and hopefully cover the brake). If you remain hard-focused you can easily rear-end the car in front of you or hit the other kid that you didn't see. The eyes must go and do, what the eyes must go and do. That is what I am talking about when I am saying "sidetracked." The arts I study believe this. So, this is my best answer to the original thread of "what to look for".
One other point that the arts I study stress is to not look directly into your opponents eyes. My instructor says something to the effect of seeing the reflection of the opponents eyes on the opponents nose, of which I have but a limited understanding and will not attempt to explain.

[bradlee]

Aha..Can you be more specific?
Wali, you have said that you practiced sparring frequently. In the scenario that I gave you, which part of the opponent's body are you looking for to determine what would be his next move?
I knew a little about Tapal and Rasa.
Tristan

It's not Tapal, but Tapel. It's mean "Touch", und Rasa means "Feeling".

I assume that Wali is a Cikalong practioners, is that true?.

The words Tapel and Rasa are used especially in Maenpo Cikalong.
To practice Tapel, student have to mastered all Jurus.
Tapel consist of 3 Stage:
1. Rasa Napel, Napel is adverb from Tapel, means "condition when we touch the opponent". Rasa Napel = Feeling the condition when we touch the opponent.
2. Rasa Anggang, Anggang means "has a distance". Rasa Anggang = Feeling the condition when we don't touch opponent.
3. Rasa Sinar, Sinar means "light". Rasa Sinar = Feeling from appearence.

It's sound like it's all theory. But that's true. Cikalong practioners will try to touch a forehand of opponents to "read" its movement. When it's not possible, then with 2. Stage or 3. Stage.

[Narrue]

I thought about this and divided it into 6 types of feeling. The first 3 everyone has but the next 3 few people have.

Feeling through touch (mechanical)
Feeling through listening (audio)
Feeling through sight (body language)

Feeling through use of fingers
Feeling through air
Feeling through light

[bradlee]

Abang Narrue, If we speak about "Rasa" in Maenpo Cikalong, then I have to mentioned one more: "Feeling through feeling" (Sundanese: Rasa sajeroning rasa. Indonesians: Rasa di dalam Rasa).

[Narrue]

Haha..Now things are getting confusing, Feeling through feeling…..should we just call it knowing.

[realitychecker]

Steve Perry and Fireshadow,

Thank you both very much. I'm working very hard at obtaining understanding from your posts. Steve, I worked on some of what you mentioned with Guru over the weekend. I thank you for your insight, and totally appreciate your help!
I hope to soon be able to contribute as you both have.
Take care,
JR

[tellner]

Thank you, O Moderators, for canning the spammer.

If he's trying to get more customers for his school it's probably not working. I've been inspired never to buy anything from East West as long as this is the state of their marketing.

[Bobster]

That's so odd someone would still try to do crap like that...I mean, everybody knows how we feel about spammers, and if you want to bring your school and teacher's name down in a blaze of glory, there's almost no better way to do it. It certianly doesn't make the East-West name look good.

[Gajah Silat]

Maybe just a youngster or newbie trying to show off what he's being taught :confused: ?

Didn't really seem to be an obvious marketing plug as the link was to Youtube rather than the actual EastWest site.

Talking of moderators, it seems that the Sarge has defected to the dark side and joined the forces of MMA :p

[Wali]

That's so odd someone would still try to do crap like that...I mean, everybody knows how we feel about spammers, and if you want to bring your school and teacher's name down in a blaze of glory, there's almost no better way to do it. It certianly doesn't make the East-West name look good.

The person responsible doesn't have much experience of Internet forums, and I've had a quick word....