Atemi!

[AIKIDO_WORKS!]

The Aikido schools in new jersey (essex county, sussex county and bergen county) in which we are affiliated with teaches striking techniques (Atemi), but only at the intermediate and advanced levels.

Some of the strikes are the open palm strikes to the tip of the nose, spear hands to the eyes. Now, the beginner students never see these moves in their classes as these techniques are only revealed to advanced students. I have never seen any "kicking" performed at my school at all, and all of the strikes i've seen taught are aimed at the nose, throat, eyes or chin. Now, these strikes are not taught in a way in which you attack or go toe to toe or head to head with any one, but are optional, and used in conjunction with all aikido techniques.

You can modify your techniques when incorporating these strikes to make them that much more deadlier. Now, I know why these techniques are not taught to beginers, because these techniques are only used to enhance your foundation techniques and make the art more lethal, but from my observation here on these forums, it seems that many aikido dojos don't teach these techniques at all! Not even at the intermediate or advanced levels! If this is true, then they are not getting the complete art of aikido! I'm glad my school teaches the complete system of aikido, even though I have a very long way to go before I am even eligible to be taught them, but they are there!

Any comments?

[Virtuous]

My experience is with Aikijutsu only and the Atemi is CRUICAL. We have no reservations about teaching these techniques to the off the street white belt. Atemis dont have to be vital, they are a very useful tool for taking mental kazushi. They are also great for setting up a throw, for instance a good blow to the stomach or groind may provoke a natural reaction to double over or at the very least shift the balance forward ever so slightly, finish em off whith a chitin nage. A palm strike to the nose compliments any throw to the rear well, ie irimi or shiho. My personal favorites are a shuto to the neck on the supraclavicular nerve or a sharp knee to the lateral cutaneous nerve, floating ribs, or kidney. Front or rear kick to the groind for those two handed grabs, a good stomp on the instep for chokes and grabs from the rear. Yes you can perform the technique with out using an atemi but why handicap yourself? If you find yourself confronting a BDU more likely than not the BDU is going to be extremly resistive. By introducing pain you can disrupt his mental balance brielfy enough to start a technique giving you that much more of an edge.
I conducted an experiment using my brother as an uke (has had no aiki training ever), he was a bit of a lost child for a while and fighting was almost a daily event. So I told him I am going to try to apply a throw, kote gieshi, and proceeded to strugle to apply it, it wasnt easy. I tried it again but this time I atemied him in the stomach, I didnt even touch him only feinted the punch. It had drawn his attention just long enough for me to apply the wrist lock to the point of no return. I believe all aiki schools should teach the art of atemi waza at all levels with just as much emphasis as throwing, But then there would be no aikido schools, just aikijutsu.

[raybri-san]

thats a nice KOTE-GAESHI but whit a good and precise atami you do not need anything els he or she will colapse on his/her own and you now that to or not
------------------------------------------------
treu victory = self victory

[Tintin]

Aikido can be broken down into 2 simple principles - atemi waza(strikes) & kansetsu waza (joint manipulation). In shodokan aikido, we teach both literally from day 1.

There are a few ways to implement atemi.

1) A straightforward impact to the opponent with the intention of destruction (probably the least used (i.e. never) in my experience.

2) A fast placement of the hand blade onto the opponent, usually the head, then driving through so it is more of a projection than a destructive strike.

3) A distraction, whether there is contact or not, opening the opponent up for a follow up.

I can imagine that certain branches of aikido might not include atemi, but then some people have a rather sugar-coated idealistic view of aikido. While considered a defensive art, it is still very much a martial art

[timmeh!]

It's a shame some of the other schools don't seem to teach the atemi early on as the footwork for them is nothing but good.
It's also fairly handy when against an opponent with forearms and wrists that only king kong can get a hold of...

[Freeform]

"Ha, you do Aikido, you can't harm me unless I grab your wrist"

BLAM (One shomen ate later)

"Ouch!"

:D

Col

[raybri-san]

hi freeform thats the trick you do not need!! but try to grab my wrist even so you fly away when i or a good akidoka want to we will send you on you'r way we choose
---------------------------------------------------------
treu victory is self victory

[aikiscotsman]

AIKIDO is 90% Atemi

[SPAWNPAIN]

:p I study Atemi ryu jujutsu , it is almost all about atemis and locks , the first thing they showed me was the meaning and uses of the atemi i also study aikido in the same Dojo so we study aikido using atemis as well and let me tell you, :cool: aikido plus atemis ha it is mortal :)

[Freeform]

Raybri san, you seem to have missed my point.

Colin

[Gravity]

I am saddened by schools purporting to teach aikido and yet do not emphasize ATEMI. For without atemi, it is not aikido. The reason that the uninitiated has difficulty understanding Aikido with his narrow set of definitions is that Aikido is fluidly everything. Aikidokas strike, kick, grapple, pin, lock, break, throw and use weapons.

But let me focus on Atemi (strike). Understand that your whole body is itself a weapon - from your toes to your fingertips to your forehead. Any part of your body can be used for Atemi effectively. There are also nerve points that one hits to make atemi devastating (even the much ignored ear lobe / ear canal is one painful nerve point - LOL!). On the streets, one can realistically put in 2 or 3 (at the most) fast and effective atemis before one does a technique. By this time, the uke's sense of equilibrium is already so unbalanced that the simplest of techniques will finish him off.

Just remember, that when you do atemi, your intention is not merely to "distract" or disrupt his ki or mental equilibrium (or whatever sublime description), but to cause your attacker pain and some damage; thus, softening him up for your finishing technique. So throw solid atemis backed with power generated from your hips.

Yes it is a cruel world out there.


P.S.
I think that solid Atemi is not duly emphasized by traditional aikido because it is difficult to do "leading" when your atemi has already arrested or slowed down their momentum of attack. On the other hand, it is also difficult to do effective atemi when you have first "led" your opponent around.

[WOspidermonkey]

Hey correct me if im wrong but is a shuto a flat palm fingert tip strike? "making a spear with your hand and using ur middle finger as the tip" this is what i always heard a shuto is.

[Samurai_Spice]

I've learnt so much Atemi in class it's not funny. Almost all, well most, or let's say a fair bit of what my sensei teaches has a back fist to the face or a shoman strike or a yokoman strike etc etc as the "first do this, then step here and Kote Geashi(sp?)" or like with irimi nage whip Uke round to here and punch face then finish off with uke on the floor.

ATEMI should take up a lot of your preclass time

Unless you have the reaction times of a F1 driver on speed and the patience of a dead Zen Monk without ATEMI you might find yourself in trouble.

I guess if your 'Sen no Sen' is awesome you might not need atemi - but you'd want to be QUICK!.

[aikinoob]

why is it so hard for people to go do some rounds on a heavy bag?

[Archibald]

Hey Samurai Spice, just out of curiosity, where do you train?

[aikiwolfie]

Atemi or opening for are incorporated in to almost all of the basic techniques we teach beginners. As our students begin to go through their first few gradings the atemi becomes even more important.

I can't imagine how most of the techniques would work without an atemi.

[master35]

even osensie uses atemi.

[madfrank]

I've been told you use a strike to set up a throw
why not take em out with the strike
in the street it has to be fast
MF

[Budd]

Shirley that wouldn't be aikido. (admittedly referencing another thread)

How about . . . and this may sound crazy . . . you have the option of finishing the encounter AND doing the throw if you need to?

I know, I know, I'm nuts!

[madfrank]

No sweety

You misunderstood if you hit him hard enough he goes down anyway?:)
unless you're suggesting picking him up to throw him?:)


MF

[Budd]

You misunderstood if you hit him hard enough he goes down anyway?:)
unless you're suggesting picking him up to throw him?:)


I see, so you're counting on all those "one-punch knockouts" to work. Yeah, those have been so successful in NHB. I could see why you'd rather do that than aikido. Good job.

[Freeform]

I see, so you're counting on all those "one-punch knockouts" to work. Yeah, those have been so successful in NHB. I could see why you'd rather do that than aikido. Good job.

I'd like to add that I have on occassion seen some very good amatuer boxer friends of mine who I worked the door with, actually do that. I will admit that it was usually on drunken skells, but it was still kinda cool! ;)

Col

[Budd]

Yup, I've seen the same thing, Col, but I'd also rather have the clinch and grappeling game in my arsenal, too, in case the drunken skell just looks at me funny afterwards (seen that happen, too). :eek:

[aikiwolfie]

Is it just me or did every single thread here get turned into a fight about Aikido vs [please insert style here]? This sort of question wore pretty thin with me pretty fast when I first joined MAP.

This question has been done to the death and is hanging around like a stale fart under the bed sheets. If you realy realy realy want to know if Aikido works against real life attacks go find out by asking a teacher to let you attack him/her any way you like. Then you'll have your answer.

[Budd]

Examples, please?

I've seen questions where people ask how aikido would handle a given scenario (some are intentionally inflammatory, others by people that haven't trained and can't spell, while others are just offering opinions - I consider myself to be in the latter camp). I've also seen where people think that because others claim that aikido has holes for their needs (nhb comps, etc.) that they need to crosstrain or study something else. There are also folks that are perfectly happy to just study aikido. I'd say a lot of people lie somewhere between the two.

Of course, those that really try to argue style vs. style usually don't last too long and have usually lost the argument before it's begun. I can see how certain styles are better for certain things, but usually in specific cases. Training methodology and individual aptitude holds a lot more water with me. Also, those that have made up their minds and aren't looking for a discussion generally leave after they realize they aren't winning.

[master35]

I've been told you use a strike to set up a throw
why not take em out with the strike
in the street it has to be fast
MF
man if i could put an agresor w/ a strike of course i would, but could you give an example of a useful strike that could put a man down? :confused:

[aikiwolfie]

Examples? It was just a general observation about the tone of disscussion in most of the current threads. It all seems to come back to Aikido in a fight or Aikido vs something, either directly or indirectly.

There's nothing wrong with looking at Aikido in that context. After all we'd all like to be confident that what we are doing works. I just don't see the need for it in all the threads.

Maybe I'm reading it all wrong. But it just seemed like lately all that really gets disscussed is Aikido vs this or that or Aikido in a fight.

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=200961#post200961
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13739
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=201262#post201262
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=201237#post201237
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13839&page=1
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13796&page=1

That's most of the currently active threads. There's got to be something better to talk about shirley. :)

[Freeform]

Aikiwolfie is right, lets get this Atemi thread back on track gents.

The first five techniques of the Shodokan Randori no Kata are Atemi waza, although when practiced at high levels uke always practices ukemi (weird that ;) ) to get out of the way. If they didn't get out of the way they'd normally get their face caved in.

The problem I see at lower skill levels (mine), is that aikidoka are to scared to committ the atemi waza in fear that they'll strike uke, whaddaya think?

Col

[master35]

Examples? It was just a general observation about the tone of disscussion in most of the current threads. It all seems to come back to Aikido in a fight or Aikido vs something, either directly or indirectly.

There's nothing wrong with looking at Aikido in that context. After all we'd all like to be confident that what we are doing works. I just don't see the need for it in all the threads.

Maybe I'm reading it all wrong. But it just seemed like lately all that really gets disscussed is Aikido vs this or that or Aikido in a fight.

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=200961#post200961
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13739
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=201262#post201262
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=201237#post201237
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13839&page=1
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13796&page=1

That's most of the currently active threads. There's got to be something better to talk about shirley. :)
hey man you got my question to madfrank confused. if he knows a good move i'd like to try it out maybe it could save lives. pls man i'm no nonsense question type of guy. pls respect me to coz ive not violated any rule on posting and i respect you to. :mad:

my word is all i have and i wont jeopardize it.
we have a serial knife staber in the philippines now and if "a single move" could delay a fatal attack its my duty to teach my students.

[Budd]

Nah.

I'm seeing more "how does this work in the real world" type questions than folks trying to say "aikido vs. x", which then can lead into "aikido in a fight" type responses. I think this is especially valid given that there are even high-ranking folks in/from Japan that are debating these questions (read some stuff written by Saotome Sensei, Chiba Sensei and Nishio Sensei) even today.

Aikiwolfie,

I think you nailed it in another thread where you mentioned that it's the student's responsibility to be able to make things work in a real setting. If the teacher's are competent, they can help in this, or, possibly the student may want or need to crosstrain. Either way, it's the student's responsibility. I do find fault with misleading marketing practices, or blatant historical half-truths, but at this point have no idea what to do about that.

Col,

I think we've been on track. Aikido practice, especially today, is going to be a mix of persons bringing stuff from other areas, arguing about who's got the real O-sensei aikido (and then being hit with a shovel :) ) and generally debating areas of practice, affiliations, methods and philosophy. As I said before, I think the idiots that are looking to flame or cause trouble will be argued away soon enough (or called on their BS), which will, hopefully leave discussions and debates that, while not always easy or even necessarily fun, will give us an opportunity to learn a few more things.

[Freeform]

and then being hit with a shovel :)

Nah, bokken ;)

[aikinoob]

last week in class only 2 students and 1 instructor showed up.

we were working on an atemi counter to a wrist grab. for the life of me, i couldn't duplicate what i was being shown. it was just a very deliberate straight right to uke's jaw, but i kept turning it into a backfist.

so, i have come to the conclusion (foregone) that a quick backfist is a great tool for distraction/ closing distance.

what are some drills you guys use to practice palm strikes?
i need to find a change my initial reaction from closed fist to palm strike as a result of an injury to my knuckle about a year ago. i can still punch softer objects just fine, but anything harder than a canvas bag causes mild swelling/ discomfort.

[Budd]

Here's an easy one:

On your entrance into sumi otoshi, deliver an uppercut palm strike, which can easily be turned over into an elbow, THEN strip down the arm and step through into the throw.
You'll find plenty of other places to implement the same atemi.

[aikinoob]

Here's an easy one:

On your entrance into sumi otoshi, deliver an uppercut palm strike, which can easily be turned over into an elbow, THEN strip down the arm and step through into the throw.
You'll find plenty of other places to implement the same atemi.


okay. how do i ingrain this response outside of the dojo?

IRL, my initial reaction is a right cross. what are some ways to break this habit?

any experience with visualization? or should i just find someone to let me palmstrike them repeatedly.

[Budd]

If you do any sparring that incorporates strikes, make it a priority to work for setting them up with a palm-strike (basically, a boxing uppercut with an open hand), then turning the arm over for the muay thai elbow and then driving forward for sumi otoshi (aikido). Osotogari (judo) works REALLY well from this setup as well. The reasons for this atemi (in this aikido application) are twofold: 1) Create a connection between you and the other person. 2) Fix that person in place while you close the distance. These strikes also work equally well in two step aikido practice (providing uke is protecting his head) and in a more nhb type setting for throw/takedown setups.

A visualization for the uppercut is to drive the hip and arm like a boxing uppercut, keep the hand open, still strike through the target, but then stick to them, to target the elbow strike. The elbow strike, to simplify, is a bit like bringing your striking hand to your own chest by flipping your elbow (driven by the hip) over through the target in a diagonal arc -- keep driving the elbow through and either A) Bring the hand back up to cover OR B) Use the momentum that's created to stick to the opponent's shoulder, strip down the bicep and step through for the sumi otoshi.

Hope this helps . . .

[master35]

could i kindly ask sir budd what belt are you in aikido? what degree are you in judo? and do you have a belt in submission fighting? so i could assume the level of training that goes with your understanding of topics you guru in.

[master35]

and if possibly sir budd how old are you? just give it in approsimation. like i'm around 25-35 years old.

[aikiwolfie]

Hmm maybe this wasn't the right thread to make the point about the current violence dominated overtone to the forum. However the point is valid, it seems like that is all people are talking about right now.

aikinoob was there a reason for such a poor attendance? Two students and one instructor sounds really poor. This comes back to what I was saying in another thread about students taking responsibility for them selves.

aikinoob it sounds like you've pretty much given up on the counter you were being shown. I'd stick with it and figure out how it's done. If your knuckles hurt use an open hand and strike with the heal of your hand or the outside edge. The best way to ingrain this is to simpley practice and be conciousley aware of what you are doing. It will become a habbit soon enough.

[Budd]

could i kindly ask sir budd what belt are you in aikido? what degree are you in judo? and do you have a belt in submission fighting? so i could assume the level of training that goes with your understanding of topics you guru in.

Hi master35,

I'm happy to tell you of the rankings I've achieved, although you may be disappointed.

I earned a green belt in judo back in the early 80s and haven't tested in it since then (although I recently started playing judo twice a month and spar brown and black belts at Charles Cavrich's club -- even tapped a couple in randori ;) ). I earned a 5th kyu in aikikai aikido back in 1993, but haven't tested in aikido since. The aikido school (non-affiliated and under the guidance of Ellis Amdur) at which I currently train does not have belt ranks, but offers a mokoroku license (which essentially means you've achieved competence and demonstrated proficiency in the entire curriculum -- we're still developing our curriculum). I earned a brown belt in an Americanized karate system back in 1994, but haven't tested in karate since then (or actively trained since 2000). None of the places where I trained catch wrestling or submission fighting have had belt ranks. Nor did I receive any belt ranks from competing in state wrestling tournaments in freestyle or greco-roman wrestling, or for winning and placing at regional tournaments. The jodo I study also has licensing, as it's a koryu, and I'm nowhere near competent enough or have the time in to be considered for even the lowest level license.

The basic philosophy I have regarding belt ranks is that, at it's best, it demonstrates proficiency and commitment to a specific school, which may be indicative of said schools affiliation (Aikkai, Kodokan, Renjo's BJJ Academy, WTF, Shidokan, etc.) AND, in some cases, the level of merit and respect given to belts awarded from said organizations can vary. For instance, I will currently give a 1st Dan BJJ blackbelt a LOT more respect as a competent fighter than say, a 12-year-old 3rd Dan that's won lots of kata tournaments. Having said that, I'm not trying to say that I don't think the 12-year-old worked hard, it's just that one art is spent with a lot of full-resistance sparring against skilled opponents (and currently has incredibly high standards before it's awarded) and if the other is mostly spent on forms, they just don't compare in my book (although I'm not as quick to totally eliminate forms as some).

That said, I don't know that I ever will get any higher "belt" ranks than I have right now. People that have sparred with me (black belts and others) can attest to my abilities (even if they don't have a high opinion of them ;) ). I have had offers to be dan graded or instructor rated, but there were usually strings attached that were not compatible with my training goals. As such, I've found it easier to just train. I make no claims of mastery or expertise. I do have strong opinions (understatement) that I've formed through hard training in a variety of environments (and funny enough, many dan grades that I train with share these opinions :) ). I've also met and trained with yellow belts that are awesome and crappy AS WELL as black belts that were awesome and crappy.

But there are two things I can tell you for certain. I'm not a guru and please don't call me "sir" :).

and if possibly sir budd how old are you? just give it in approsimation. like i'm around 25-35 years old.

I'll tell that next February 2 (Groundhog's Day) I will be 30 years old.

Hope this helps . . .

[bigd]

Hi master35,

I'm happy to tell you of the rankings I've achieved, although you may be disappointed.

I earned a green belt in judo back in the early 80s and haven't tested in it since then (although I recently started playing judo twice a month and spar brown and black belts at Charles Cavrich's club -- even tapped a couple in randori ;) ). I earned a 5th kyu in aikikai aikido back in 1993, but haven't tested in aikido since. The aikido school (non-affiliated and under the guidance of Ellis Amdur) at which I currently train does not have belt ranks, but offers a mokoroku license (which essentially means you've achieved competence and demonstrated proficiency in the entire curriculum -- we're still developing our curriculum). I earned a brown belt in an Americanized karate system back in 1994, but haven't tested in karate since then (or actively trained since 2000). None of the places where I trained catch wrestling or submission fighting have had belt ranks. Nor did I receive any belt ranks from competing in state wrestling tournaments in freestyle or greco-roman wrestling, or for winning and placing at regional tournaments. The jodo I study also has licensing, as it's a koryu, and I'm nowhere near competent enough or have the time in to be considered for even the lowest level license.

The basic philosophy I have regarding belt ranks is that, at it's best, it demonstrates proficiency and commitment to a specific school, which may be indicative of said schools affiliation (Aikkai, Kodokan, Renjo's BJJ Academy, WTF, Shidokan, etc.) AND, in some cases, the level of merit and respect given to belts awarded from said organizations can vary. For instance, I will currently give a 1st Dan BJJ blackbelt a LOT more respect as a competent fighter than say, a 12-year-old 3rd Dan that's won lots of kata tournaments. Having said that, I'm not trying to say that I don't think the 12-year-old worked hard, it's just that one art is spent with a lot of full-resistance sparring against skilled opponents (and currently has incredibly high standards before it's awarded) and if the other is mostly spent on forms, they just don't compare in my book (although I'm not as quick to totally eliminate forms as some).

That said, I don't know that I ever will get any higher "belt" ranks than I have right now. People that have sparred with me (black belts and others) can attest to my abilities (even if they don't have a high opinion of them ;) ). I have had offers to be dan graded or instructor rated, but there were usually strings attached that were not compatible with my training goals. As such, I've found it easier to just train. I make no claims of mastery or expertise. I do have strong opinions (understatement) that I've formed through hard training in a variety of environments (and funny enough, many dan grades that I train with share these opinions :) ). I've also met and trained with yellow belts that are awesome and crappy AS WELL as black belts that were awesome and crappy.

But there are two things I can tell you for certain. I'm not a guru and please don't call me "sir" :).



I'll tell that next February 2 (Groundhog's Day) I will be 30 years old.

Hope this helps . . .thats true i had a yellow belt only green and brown and blackbelts had to sparr the guy was crazy as hell he didnt hold back.

[aikinoob]

Hmm maybe this wasn't the right thread to make the point about the current violence dominated overtone to the forum. However the point is valid, it seems like that is all people are talking about right now.

aikinoob was there a reason for such a poor attendance? Two students and one instructor sounds really poor. This comes back to what I was saying in another thread about students taking responsibility for them selves.

aikinoob it sounds like you've pretty much given up on the counter you were being shown. I'd stick with it and figure out how it's done. If your knuckles hurt use an open hand and strike with the heal of your hand or the outside edge. The best way to ingrain this is to simpley practice and be conciousley aware of what you are doing. It will become a habbit soon enough.

well, we have a pretty small class as it is. attendance at max is only 8 -10 people. fortunately for me 2 of them happen to have 10+ years of experience in aikikai. also, i live in a fairly small town, so large attendance isn't expected.

i'm not sure what you're referring to with regards to a counter i'm being shown, but i plan on working more palm strikes as "planned" techniques.

[master35]

Hi master35,

I'm happy to tell you of the rankings I've achieved, although you may be disappointed.

I earned a green belt in judo back in the early 80s and haven't tested in it since then (although I recently started playing judo twice a month and spar brown and black belts at Charles Cavrich's club -- even tapped a couple in randori ;) ). I earned a 5th kyu in aikikai aikido back in 1993, but haven't tested in aikido since. The aikido school (non-affiliated and under the guidance of Ellis Amdur) at which I currently train does not have belt ranks, but offers a mokoroku license (which essentially means you've achieved competence and demonstrated proficiency in the entire curriculum -- we're still developing our curriculum). I earned a brown belt in an Americanized karate system back in 1994, but haven't tested in karate since then (or actively trained since 2000). None of the places where I trained catch wrestling or submission fighting have had belt ranks. Nor did I receive any belt ranks from competing in state wrestling tournaments in freestyle or greco-roman wrestling, or for winning and placing at regional tournaments. The jodo I study also has licensing, as it's a koryu, and I'm nowhere near competent enough or have the time in to be considered for even the lowest level license.

The basic philosophy I have regarding belt ranks is that, at it's best, it demonstrates proficiency and commitment to a specific school, which may be indicative of said schools affiliation (Aikkai, Kodokan, Renjo's BJJ Academy, WTF, Shidokan, etc.) AND, in some cases, the level of merit and respect given to belts awarded from said organizations can vary. For instance, I will currently give a 1st Dan BJJ blackbelt a LOT more respect as a competent fighter than say, a 12-year-old 3rd Dan that's won lots of kata tournaments. Having said that, I'm not trying to say that I don't think the 12-year-old worked hard, it's just that one art is spent with a lot of full-resistance sparring against skilled opponents (and currently has incredibly high standards before it's awarded) and if the other is mostly spent on forms, they just don't compare in my book (although I'm not as quick to totally eliminate forms as some).

That said, I don't know that I ever will get any higher "belt" ranks than I have right now. People that have sparred with me (black belts and others) can attest to my abilities (even if they don't have a high opinion of them ;) ). I have had offers to be dan graded or instructor rated, but there were usually strings attached that were not compatible with my training goals. As such, I've found it easier to just train. I make no claims of mastery or expertise. I do have strong opinions (understatement) that I've formed through hard training in a variety of environments (and funny enough, many dan grades that I train with share these opinions :) ). I've also met and trained with yellow belts that are awesome and crappy AS WELL as black belts that were awesome and crappy.

But there are two things I can tell you for certain. I'm not a guru and please don't call me "sir" :).



I'll tell that next February 2 (Groundhog's Day) I will be 30 years old.

Hope this helps . . .
thanx for the info man. :)
the reason i ask this is if having taken an exam for a higher belt one could relate to the understanding of a technique that he has execute for more than hundred times. But not to his fighting ability w/c many practitioners dont want to talk in this forum(me included but also been mis-interpreted of asking question to aikido vs....) :) . And yes i dont believe in belts could save lives :) . As the famost Pat Morita would say(Karate Kid): "Belt? only use to tie trousers!" :D .

but if you have attain a dan in an art then because of some mental preparation you have to undergo w/c has similarity to other aikido schools then one could relate to your mental understanding of the art. :)

[aikiwolfie]

Grading systems are only relevant to the school or style that system was created for. For example a 3rd dan in aikikai aikido will train to a different standard as a 3rd dan in ki aikido. I wouldn't say either one was better just looking at their grades on paper. They both train in the art of aikido from almost totaly different perspectives. There's no direct rule for comparison because each school of thought has different expectations of it's students.

Given that grades can't really be compaired properly it's almost pointless to ask.

[Budd]

I agree with aikiwolfie and also submit that even within the context of your own organization, being of lower rank than someone else doesn't necessarily invalidate your opinion over theirs. What should be noted, though, is that depending on rank, seniority, etc. someone else's opinion (and in many cases, rightfully so) may be given more consideration. However, in a good school with a competent instructor, they are not going to side with the brown belt that talks about throwing chi balls to defeat their enemies -- even if you are a white belt. :)

[master35]

Grading systems are only relevant to the school or style that system was created for. For example a 3rd dan in aikikai aikido will train to a different standard as a 3rd dan in ki aikido. I wouldn't say either one was better just looking at their grades on paper. They both train in the art of aikido from almost totaly different perspectives. There's no direct rule for comparison because each school of thought has different expectations of it's students.

Given that grades can't really be compaired properly it's almost pointless to ask.
you got me all wrong again man were not talking of who best or whos dojos great. im taliking about the comradery of same belt levels. thats why you could not understand what im talking about. You are comparing everything! its you thats comparing everything! :( your always giving arguements to old guys! HOW OLD ARE YOU?

[master35]

I agree with aikiwolfie and also submit that even within the context of your own organization, being of lower rank than someone else doesn't necessarily invalidate your opinion over theirs. What should be noted, though, is that depending on rank, seniority, etc. someone else's opinion (and in many cases, rightfully so) may be given more consideration. However, in a good school with a competent instructor, they are not going to side with the brown belt that talks about throwing chi balls to defeat their enemies -- even if you are a white belt. :)
sir i'm talking about comradery between same belts. i listen to all the belt but the problem is this... example like you i bet you didn't understand what i wrote and just defended aikiwolf like what you do in all the trends. :( you always 2nd demotion him like i agree with aikiwolf this and that always.

[aikiwolfie]

you got me all wrong again man were not talking of who best or whos dojos great. im taliking about the comradery of same belt levels. thats why you could not understand what im talking about. You are comparing everything! its you thats comparing everything! :( your always giving arguements to old guys! HOW OLD ARE YOU?
sir i'm talking about comradery between same belts. i listen to all the belt but the problem is this... example like you i bet you didn't understand what i wrote and just defended aikiwolf like what you do in all the trends. you always 2nd demotion him like i agree with aikiwolf this and that always.
LMAO I almost choked on my shreddies when I read this LMAO!!! ... falls over turning blue !!!!

And oh yeah budd is my bitch now....my widdle fluffy floppy eard bitch bunny LMAO...

Uh master my post wasn't really about "getting you". It's was more a general statement. But on that point you do seem to be one of the increasing number of people on here who don't speak English as a first language.

This is unfortunate because you generally sound like you're asking for an orange when you wanted a banana. And just because you put the question in caps, I'm 25 and I'll turn 26 on the 21st of July.

Now of course budd should agree with everything I say. I'm always right. :cool:

[Budd]

And oh yeah budd is my bitch now....my widdle fluffy floppy eard bitch bunny LMAO...

See, that's what you say until I counter with my ukemi and choke your arse out! Or snap your arm, or shin kick you in the head . . .


Now of course budd should agree with everything I say. I'm always right. :cool:

LMAO!!! AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

*cough*sputter*choke*

*taps*

[aikiwolfie]

LMAO see Budd never dissagrees with me. :D LMAO!!!

[master35]

what does LMAO mean?
and yes i could not talk or understand inglesh that much.

[aikiwolfie]

LMAO = Laughs My Ass Off

Aaaaaaah no english that explains alot. Well good luck learning then :D

[master35]

are you a scot? do you use underwear under your kilts?

[aikiwolfie]

Yes I'm scottish but I've never actually worne a kilt. Underwear is optional.