[Korea] Korean 101

[kiseki]

Its about time that I admit that I don't know a thing aobut Korean.
I can't even tell how to pronounce something while looking at the romanization.

I'm confused that:
in "Kuk Sool Won", the double 'o' is pronounced similar to "tool" and
in "Ki Bohn Soo", the double 'o' is pronounced similar to "home"
(if either of these are wrong, I know even less than I thought)

I will be in the presence of 50+ Korean speakers in a few weeks, and I would love some help with some of the basics.

Firstly, form the WKSA website:
An Nyoung Ha Sim Ni Kka = Hello
An Nyoung Hee Ga Sip Si Yo = Goodbye

I looked for a website with sound files, but could only find simple vowels pronounced. If anyone even knows of a website that more accurately desribed the consonants that would be great. I can't figure out for the life of me how you are supposed to pronounce the k/g thing.

The other words for which I have a personal interest in are as follows:

Jeong Gwon ; Straight Fist (Punch)
Soo Do ; Knife Hand
Yeok Soo Do ; Inverted Knife Hand
Pyeong Soo ; Palm Strike
Gwan Soo ; Spear Hand

Ap Cha Gi ; Front Kick
Yeop Cha Gi ; Side Kick
An Da Ri Cha Gi ; Inner Leg Kick
Ba Kkat Da Ri Cha Gi ; Outer Leg Kick
Jjik Eo Cha Gi ; Axe Kick
Bal Deung Cha Gi ; Round Kick
Bal Kkum Chi Cha Gi ; Hook Kick

Da Seot ; Five
Yeo Seot ; Six
Il Gop ; Seven
Yeo Deol ; Eigh
Yeol ; Ten

Thanks

[AZeitung]

Its about time that I admit that I don't know a thing aobut Korean.
I can't even tell how to pronounce something while looking at the romanization.

I'm confused that:
in "Kuk Sool Won", the double 'o' is pronounced similar to "tool" and
in "Ki Bohn Soo", the double 'o' is pronounced similar to "home"
(if either of these are wrong, I know even less than I thought)

For Ki Bohn Soo, the "oo" is pronounced like the "oo" in "tool". This is what I heard in class and on the DVDs.


I will be in the presence of 50+ Korean speakers in a few weeks, and I would love some help with some of the basics.

I looked for a website with sound files, but could only find simple vowels pronounced. If anyone even knows of a website that more accurately desribed the consonants that would be great. I can't figure out for the life of me how you are supposed to pronounce the k/g thing.

Usually, what I heard was mostly "g"ish, with only a slight "k" sound. Same with the d/t thing - mostly "t"ish, with maybe a slight "d" sound. And that was from a native Korean speaker as well.


The other words for which I have a personal interest in are as follows:

Just basically prounce them phonetically, as you think they would be. I'm pretty sure the "eo"s in those words are pronounced like "uh"s.

[coc716]

Its about time that I admit that I don't know a thing aobut Korean.
I can't even tell how to pronounce something while looking at the romanization.


Nothing wrong with that.

Most of the Romanizations that you see are fairly accurate. The ones in the Kuk Sool Won textbooks or on the WKSA website here http://www.kuksoolwon.com/kuksool02.html are good approximations. Just pronounce them as you read them.

However, sometimes the Romanizations I think are a little off. Take "dojang" for instance. It's pronouced "doe-jahng", but if you strictly read the Romanization you'd probably say "doo-jang" (short "a" sound, as in "cat"). So typically you'll find in Romanizations that "o" is pronouced "oh" and "a" is pronounced "ah". But at least these slight inconsistencies are consistantly applied. :)

Don't forget your textbook. Throughout the book it will have both Korean and English. Not just on the terminology page.

The cool thing about Hangul is it's fairly simple and straightforward; it's phonetic too. With just a bit of practice and memorization, you can get it down. Plus as you learn and start to recognize the glyphs and their sound, you can run down the Kuk Sool terminology sheet. You'll have the pronounciation there right next to the Hangul, so as your decipher the Hangul you can see right next to it how it's supposed to sound. Then you'll start to see the patterns (that one that looks kinda like a 7 is a "k/g" sound... the one that's sorta like a "T" is a "oo" like moon sound... in fact, look at the Hangul for the art we practice... it's that 7 over a T over a 7, if you will... k... oo... k.) :)

Here's a site that could be of some help too: http://www.langintro.com/kintro/

[ember]

I'm confused that:
in "Kuk Sool Won", the double 'o' is pronounced similar to "tool" and
in "Ki Bohn Soo", the double 'o' is pronounced similar to "home"
(if either of these are wrong, I know even less than I thought)


It's the "oh" that sounds like "home". "oo" is always similar to "tool".


Firstly, form the WKSA website:
An Nyoung Ha Sim Ni Kka = Hello
An Nyoung Hee Ga Sip Si Yo = Goodbye


The "s" in "Sim" and "Sip Si" are both pronounced "sh".


I looked for a website with sound files, but could only find simple vowels pronounced. If anyone even knows of a website that more accurately desribed the consonants that would be great. I can't figure out for the life of me how you are supposed to pronounce the k/g thing.


http://langintro.com/kintro/
Also has phrases, like the two above. (Oops - COC beat me to it :) )

The "k/g" thing is the same hangul letter. There's a rule for which to use when, but I'll have to get the textbook to remember it. I've heard similar confusion with "b/p". Is it "paro" or "baro"?

However, sometimes the Romanizations I think are a little off. Take "dojang" for instance. It's pronouced "doe-jahng", but if you strictly read the Romanization you'd probably say "doo-jang" (short "a" sound, as in "cat"). So typically you'll find in Romanizations that "o" is pronouced "oh" and "a" is pronounced "ah". But at least these slight inconsistencies are consistantly applied. :)


The "a" bit is also common to Spanish and Russian. Most non-English languages I've perused don't seem to have an "a" like "hat", the "a"s are mostly something like "ah".

Korean is unusual in that the "i" does seem to be pronounced like the English, "ship" rather than "ee".

[Thomas]

Decent overview:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_language

"New" official Romanization system, as of 2000:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revised_Romanization_of_Korean
http://english.tour2korea.com/02Culture/KoreanLanguage/roman_korean_language.asp?kosm=m2_9&konum=subm4_1

[ember]

The "k/g" thing is the same hangul letter. There's a rule for which to use when, but I'll have to get the textbook to remember it.

So I've got the textbook, Barron's Mastering Korean, and it doesn't spell it out. Looking at the book, and thinking about what I remember from the CDs, it seems to be pronounced "k" at the end of a syllable.

It seems to be pronounced "g" if it comes after "n", "m", or the "ee" sound. This particular text transliterates the "ee" sound with an "i", so don't assume that all "i"s are like "ship". I know they are in the phrases I mentioned above, but that's cause I learned those phrases in TKD.

[ember]

Since we were talking about Korean...

Keep in mind that what I write is mostly just how I hear it, not anything I've formally studied.

[Wolf]

in case anyone is still interested, i think this is a decent site. I started a while back, but haven't had the time to continue.

http://korean.sogang.ac.kr/

[MadMonk108]

Wolf, remind me to get to this tomorrow. I'm too darn tired right now.

[ember]

Wolf, remind me to get to this tomorrow. I'm too darn tired right now.

MadMonk? Reminder?

I followed KyoSN George's advice and picked up a book & CD on Korean before our trip last fall. It was really wierd to be over at the dojang, and suddenly understand "Yobo, odi e..."

Most of it still goes over my head, I only got to the third or fourth (of 12) disks, and haven't worked it much this year, but still.

[MadMonk108]

MadMonk? Reminder?

Spanx.

It was really wierd to be over at the dojang, and suddenly understand "Yobo, odi e..."

I'm right here, sugar.

[KSW_123]

I bought the book "Integrated Korean, Beginning 1". It is part of the Klear Textbooks In Korean Language series. After reading the intro of the book, I nearly had a heart attack. To learn Korean on your own would be a major endevour. It says that it is 3 times harder to learn Korean for an English than easy languages such as French and Spanish. For non language people that is a ridiculously huge barrier.

[ember]

I bought the book "Integrated Korean, Beginning 1". It is part of the Klear Textbooks In Korean Language series. After reading the intro of the book, I nearly had a heart attack. To learn Korean on your own would be a major endevour. It says that it is 3 times harder to learn Korean for an English than easy languages such as French and Spanish. For non language people that is a ridiculously huge barrier.

Languages are considered "easy" or "hard" based on their relationship in the language family. English has had so much Latin and French influence that even though it's Germanic, it has a lot of cognates with the Romance languages like French and Spanish.

Plus the Romance and Germanic languages are both Indo-European. So are Slavic languages like Russian, though they are more distant from English.

Depending on who you talk to, Korean is either unrelated to any other language, or it's in the Finno-Ugaritic group with Hungarian and Finnish, and I don't think it is Indo-European at all.

[ember]

I'm right here, sugar.

And THAT would be one of the reasons I stopped working with the cds... :o

There's often a reason they switch to Korean.

[MadMonk108]

I can't even tell how to pronounce something while looking at the romanization.

Ain't it cool?

I'm confused that:
in "Kuk Sool Won", the double 'o' is pronounced similar to "tool" and

Irony of ironies here...the "u" in Kuk and the "oo" in Sool are the same sound.

in "Ki Bohn Soo", the double 'o' is pronounced similar to "home"
(if either of these are wrong, I know even less than I thought)

This is also pronounced the same way as above, and a long "u".

An Nyoung Ha Sim Ni Kka = Hello
An Nyoung Hee Ga Sip Si Yo = Goodbye

With both of these, the "s" is more of an "sh" in common Seoul dialect.

Anyonghashimnikka?

I can't figure out for the life of me how you are supposed to pronounce the k/g thing.

Most of the time, you are safe saying it as a "g" sound if it is at the beginning of a consontant, and like a K at the end. It's not Kuksul, it's more like Guksul. Korea is the Daehan Minguk. You practice Taegwondo. If it is written with a ㄱ, it's more like a G. If it is written with a ㅋ, then it is more like a hard K no matter what.

Jeong Gwon ; Straight Fist (Punch)
Soo Do ; Knife Hand
Yeok Soo Do ; Inverted Knife Hand
Pyeong Soo ; Palm Strike
Gwan Soo ; Spear Hand
Jjik Eo Cha Gi ; Axe Kick

These appear to be an interesting mix of Seoul Standard and McHune Reishauer Romaja.

The "eo" in Jeong gwon, yeok soo do, and Pyeong soo is not pronounced as two vowel sounds, but rather as a schwa. It's the "eo" in "surgeon". Say it as "juhng", or "Yuck", or "pyung".

Bal Deung Cha Gi ; Round Kick

The "eu" here is a tough one, because it is a vowel sound that is not really present in English phonetics. I am not sure how to convey that sound just over the written forum. It is not two different sounds together, "e" and "u" but rather one sound, that's kind of like a long, but incredibly flat "ewww" sound. Yeah, good luck.

[hwarang cl]

To all Clearlake/ Master Harmon students, if you have your SWAT manual, he put in a page that has all the korean letters and vowels, both the writen and the romanization, and the pronunciation of that letter/vowel. He got it from what the korean schools use to teach the language to children.I cant seem to find mine, but if you can find yours I'd like to see it posted somehow.

[Choiyoungwoo]

How
aobut
English

:D


just kidding



in reality there are hundreds of great sources of proper korean. is it really necessary that we clog up another thread with speculation and conjecture about this topic.

Go take a korean class or google up a online course? or depend on people that might know?.

[Bahng Uh Ki]

It was really wierd to be over at the dojang, and suddenly understand "Yobo, odi e..."I'm right here, sugar.Fine, as long as it isn't followed by "... in the office waiting for you... naked." :o

[ember]

To all Clearlake/ Master Harmon students, if you have your SWAT manual, he put in a page that has all the korean letters and vowels, both the writen and the romanization, and the pronunciation of that letter/vowel. He got it from what the korean schools use to teach the language to children.I cant seem to find mine, but if you can find yours I'd like to see it posted somehow.

1) They seem to have been handed out at a meeting that I missed.

2) I ain't postin' it. I think you missed this:
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=838911&postcount=32


...who is REALLY glad that her Korean vocabulary is extremely limited, and mostly just the MA terms.

[MadMonk108]

And THAT would be one of the reasons I stopped working with the cds... :o

There's often a reason they switch to Korean.

But but but...you called me honey!

[MadMonk108]

is it really necessary that we clog up another thread with speculation and conjecture about this topic.

People ask questions.

I answer them.

Go take a korean class or google up a online course?

Always a good idea.

As far as reading and pronounciation, I could have anyone of you reading and pronouncing Hangul in less than two weeks. The phonetic alphabet of Korean is more less complicated than English.

Now...reading comprehension...that's a different story...

or depend on people that might know?.

Bingo.

[MadMonk108]

Fine, as long as it isn't followed by "... in the office waiting for you... naked." :o

Nah, you're not my type.

[hwarang cl]

1) They seem to have been handed out at a meeting that I missed.

2) I ain't postin' it. I think you missed this:
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=838911&postcount=32



1) Yeah, maybe before your time, He did it as a part of a class to teach those who wanted to learn korean.

2) Like I said, He got it from a worksheet that he got from a school that teaches korean to children(possibily adults). It's not his intellectual property.

[ember]

But but but...you called me honey!

MadMonk....

I quoted my schoolmasters. Specifically, KJN Barry Harmon talking to YKJN Choon-Ok Harmon.

And, as usual with things half-understood, managed to embarrass myself in the process.

[Choiyoungwoo]

As far as reading and pronounciation, I could have anyone of you reading and pronouncing Hangul in less than two weeks. The phonetic alphabet of Korean is more less complicated than English.

Now...reading comprehension...that's a different story...



I agree ,,,Reading and writing fundamental korean is pretty easy I learned in about 2-3 weeks. But my practice is limited to menus and MA oriented stuff, and an occasional newspaper.

Conversation and comprehension is a B!^$h. :eek:

I have a close friend that has a Masters degree in Korean language from a Korean University and his Korean is Extremely good, better than some native speakers. He is quick to help with my butchering of Han gul. He is even more helpful in reading some of the history of ksw that was printed years ago, and finding the discrepancies and the facts.

[KickChick]

I have a couple sites listed in the Helpful Resource thread over at the top of the TKD forum



http://www.blackbeltworld.com/features/korea/index.htm (there are several links on this page incl. some online courses)


http://pages.prodigy.net/david_wolfe/pmaa/ -- various MA dictionaries in various languages incl. Korean

[MadMonk108]

MadMonk....

I quoted my schoolmasters. Specifically, KJN Barry Harmon talking to YKJN Choon-Ok Harmon.

And, as usual with things half-understood, managed to embarrass myself in the process.

See, now you're breaking my heart...

[ember]

See, now you're breaking my heart...


Ah, monk, if you pay attention to who says what, you'll know that Coyote and I come as a set, and we're not big on sharing. Sorry. :Angel:

[Bahng Uh Ki]

is it really necessary that we clog up another thread with speculation and conjecture about this topic.If we weren't having fun, we wouldn't be talking about it. ;)

[ember]

I have a close friend that has a Masters degree in Korean language from a Korean University and his Korean is Extremely good, better than some native speakers. He is quick to help with my butchering of Han gul. He is even more helpful in reading some of the history of ksw that was printed years ago, and finding the discrepancies and the facts.


Are we going for one-upmanship here? :D

One of my Korean teammates is the president of the Korean language schools.

And since we moved this year, he's right in the next cube.

'Course it helps that we have a university in common...

(STILL giggling. :o :D )

[brady]

easier way to say hello:

an-yong haseyo

that's how i've always said hello and i asked a friend who is korean and she said that's a more common way to say hello

[Thomas]

easier way to say hello:

an-yong haseyo

that's how i've always said hello and i asked a friend who is korean and she said that's a more common way to say hello
You could even use an-yeong... the problem lies with the "status" of the person in relation to you. Same age or status, "an-yeong" or "anyeong haseyo" is alright... but for higher status or senior, you need the more formal "anyeong hashimnikka?"

One problem I see with using Korean in martial arts classes is that many instructors, masters and Koreans in general use a lot of different terms for the same thing, and there is very little standardization. Combine that with the pronunciation and Romanization problems and it can be tough. For me, I do teach a bit of terms and expressions, with a bit of the cultural context and leave it at that. Add to this difficulty the notion of dialects and the levels of speech and you have quite a difficult proposition for anyone! (I liked the earlier example of students modelling their instructors' language and picking up the word "sweetheart" and then using it... it's proper Korean but not necessarily for the relationships involved.)


Running a whole class in pure, correct Korean? Seems like it would take a lot more effort and time than it would be worth... especially if it sucks up training time.

Along a similar note, it seems like a lot of people put the title before their names... e.f. JKN Smith. It would seem like the title should come second, as in Thomas SB (Sabeom) if I am talking about myself or Thomas SBN (Sa Beom Nim) if someone is talking to me or about me. (And please, don't add titles to my name, it's just an example).

[MadMonk108]

I always thought it was a little hypocritical, adding your title to your screen name.

[Wolf]

Along a similar note, it seems like a lot of people put the title before their names... e.f. JKN Smith. It would seem like the title should come second, as in Thomas SB (Sabeom) if I am talking about myself or Thomas SBN (Sa Beom Nim) if someone is talking to me or about me. (And please, don't add titles to my name, it's just an example).

I had actually been taught to use the name then title approach as well. It wasn't until I moved to a new school that I saw people using the title first. As for people using them, titles are just really pushed in Kuk Sool for whatever reason. We're taught to refer to eachother in class pretty much using the title the person has earned (Jo Kyo Nym, Kyo Sa Nym, Pu Sa Beom Nym, Sa Beom Nym, Kwan Jang Nym, etc.).

[ember]

Along a similar note, it seems like a lot of people put the title before their names... e.f. JKN Smith. It would seem like the title should come second, as in Thomas SB (Sabeom) if I am talking about myself or Thomas SBN (Sa Beom Nim) if someone is talking to me or about me. (And please, don't add titles to my name, it's just an example).

We're taught that it can be either before or after. What gets really confusing is when someone has multiple titles, like "Doctor ... JKN". Though I think I've usually seen that cut down to one, and which depends on the context. ("Doctor" if medical, "JKN" if MA)