Inosanto / Lacoste connection [Archive]

dredleviathan

18-Feb-2004, 12:45 PM

Hi DeeTee,

I've been trying to get you a concrete answer on this but nobody that I know seems to have that kind of information for sure.

From the 1980 book written by Guro I "The Filipino Martial Arts" I have pulled several dates which can give you an idea of his training with John LaCoste.

1961 - Discharged from military and moved to LA, started training in Kempo with Ed Parker. At some point around the time DI gets a black belt in Kempo, presumably several years later, Ed Parker suggests that DI look into Eskrima

1977 - Death/murder of John LaCoste

1980 - Publication of FMA book in which DI says he's been trying to get a handle of John LaCoste's footwork for about 14 years. Presumably this interview took place 1-2 years before publication (judging by the publication times that we have on books in my company).

So from this I'm postulating that he trained with John LaCoste from about 1963/4 to 1977.

From the description in the book it sounds like the training happened in an ad hoc fashion rather than regular classes. Sorry that I don't have more info. If you like I can bring a copy of the section from the book about John LaCoste with me when we meet up?

Also Guro I will be over in July for his 25th annual seminar - no doubt its a question he'd be happy to answer.

Hope that's useful?

Dred

jkdKNIFER

14-Jun-2004, 06:18 PM

I have seen a tape from guro Dans personal tape collection and he is training with like 25 different teachers, and it has cheesy 70's music in the backround but just know that inosanto is very good at what he does and he has been trained by the most dangerous men in the world

DeeTee

15-Jun-2004, 11:41 AM

"...but just know that inosanto is very good at what he does and he has been trained by the most dangerous men in the world."

I've no doubt he's good at what he does but THE most dangerous men in the world? And they all just happen to live in the States right?

jkdKNIFER

15-Jun-2004, 07:58 PM

Matt_Bernius

15-Jun-2004, 08:14 PM

I don't know if all of the "most dangerous men in the world" have moved to Cali (or the states for that matter), but Inasanto has trained with some badasses. He did a lot of work with Tuhon Leo Gaje back in the 80's and Tuhon Gaje is not someone whose known to mess around. Guro Dan once told me about a public live blade (balisong) demo they gave in Texas where he accidently cut Gaje. At the time I think Guro Dan was wondering if Tuhon Gaje was going to return the favor and gut him before the demo was over.

- Matt

YODA

15-Jun-2004, 08:18 PM

Matt_Bernius

15-Jun-2004, 08:28 PM

Guro Inosanto has never been to the Philippines.

Thanks for posting that Yoda. I meant to include it. I know that is a BIG sticking point that a lot of Filipino instructors about Guru Dan (one of a few).

- Matt

DeeTee

15-Jun-2004, 10:25 PM

david f

16-Jun-2004, 02:51 AM

There are no doubt, proficient masters of the FMA in california who are very dangerous. But I think it must be kept in mind that FMA were born and evolved in the philippines. I think you may find some very dangerous masters there.

jkdKNIFER

16-Jun-2004, 08:21 PM

I've seen a tape of inosanto in the Phillipines (did i spell that right?) training and in the hawaiian islands with guro ted lucaylucay's grandfather...
and many other grandmasters.

jkdKNIFER

16-Jun-2004, 08:24 PM

One more thing, who cares about who is who and what is what,
all i know is that if 5 dudes surround me and want my money, i can rely on my training and my trusty blade... :woo:
FMA and indonesian martial arts are supreme comparatively

YODA

16-Jun-2004, 08:30 PM

I've seen a tape of inosanto in the Phillipines (did i spell that right?) training and in the hawaiian islands with guro ted lucaylucay's grandfather...
and many other grandmasters.
*Sigh

Dude - you are wrong.

Which tape was this?

Bayani

16-Jun-2004, 08:56 PM

You're more apt to take a life easily here in the Philippines and getaway with it. Not the same in the U.S. No one here cares if you are a Master in any art. in fact they really don't carry tittles unless they have formed a foormalized school or organization. the Dangerous ones are the ones without martial skill...no control. Just take your life for whatever reason..tehn go have more beers or drugs. With this as a common occurence , why do you tyhink we seek arts with more realistic points of view. And one more thing....Guro Dan has never been to the Philippines! :D sorry couldn't help it.

krys

17-Jun-2004, 02:26 PM

yea, most of THE MOST dangerous men in the world have moved to the U.S.
but inosanto went back to the phillipines and trained there too. Most of the
greatest martial artists live in california. trust me dude...

Dangerous for what? Your bank account :D ? I heard some "famous masters" in the US ask 100$ an hour for private lessons or they won't teach you knife fighting...

:rolleyes:... correction: the greatest McDojoartists maybe but definitely not the greatests martial artists :D.

DeeTee

17-Jun-2004, 09:11 PM

"Dangerous for what? Your bank account ? I heard some "famous masters" in the US ask 100$ an hour for private lessons or they won't teach you knife fighting..."

Some are charging much more than that now. 4 years ago I knew of 2 FMA instructors in the US who were charging $250 and $500 per hour. Who knows what it is now?

"You're more apt to take a life easily here in the Philippines and getaway with it. Not the same in the U.S. No one here cares if you are a Master in any art. in fact they really don't carry tittles unless they have formed a foormalized school or organization. the Dangerous ones are the ones without martial skill...no control. Just take your life for whatever reason..tehn go have more beers or drugs. With this as a common occurence , why do you tyhink we seek arts with more realistic points of view. And one more thing....Guro Dan has never been to the Philippines! sorry couldn't help it."

I was training with with a master from Cebu some time ago whilst he was here in London and he was saying the exact same thing. He said that in the west there's a greater tendency to waste too much time in a confrontation thinking about the legal consequences of ones actions before it's turned physical. Police, prison, family, job, etc. "Back home we don't worry so much about these things. If I kill a guy I just go off into the mountains and come back after a year." Scarey but true. It was an eye opener into the different mindset that is used between there and here.

pepe

18-Jun-2004, 01:50 AM

ptkali778

18-Jun-2004, 06:23 AM

pepe
you're right its double P...Philippines.....named after the king of Spain King Philip d 2nd , way way back

krys

18-Jun-2004, 11:06 AM

Some are charging much more than that now. 4 years ago I knew of 2 FMA instructors in the US who were charging $250 and $500 per hour. Who knows what it is now?

Naku!, 500$?!? one hour :eek: ? Peoples in the islands will stop taking caregivers courses to go abroad and learn arnis instead if they hear that... I will tell that to my pinoy m.a. brothers they'll have a good laugh.... last time they couldn't believe one could be charged 50$ for a two hours session...

When I said 100$ it concerned a famous guy who's teaching "kali", he teaches stick-empty hands during formal classes but if you want to learn knife you will only be able to do it during private lessons, one class is at least two hours so it's 200$ a session....

I was training with with a master from Cebu some time ago whilst he was here in London and he was saying the exact same thing. He said that in the west there's a greater tendency to waste too much time in a confrontation thinking about the legal consequences of ones actions before it's turned physical. Police, prison, family, job, etc. "Back home we don't worry so much about these things. If I kill a guy I just go off into the mountains and come back after a year." Scarey but true. It was an eye opener into the different mindset that is used between there and here.

In the Philippines or other south asian countries it turns quickly physical and you don't have time to think about the consequences or you end up dead..... Fmas are warriors arts and about killing...it is difficult to explain to western peoples that you have to chop your ennemie's hands off or cut their throat in order to disarm them instead of trying those fancy wrist locks...

I was told in the Philippines that while practicing my Juruhs (silat forms) I should have the mindset of a warrior hunting for heads and going to attack another village... other tribal guys said worse things :D.... Actually in the southern Philippines killing somebody isn't a great deal...peoples may give first hand explanations for interesting moves...

LabanB

18-Jun-2004, 02:05 PM

Hi Dave,

Actually, I have an American friend (trains under Cass Magda) who has seen tape of both Cass and Danny training in the PI. So it has happened, I think its kept quiet so as to discourage challenges.

Bill

DeeTee

18-Jun-2004, 02:37 PM

Hi Bill,

I heard from 2 masters in the Philippines, one who knows Inosanto, that the reason he's never been there was because of a promise his mother asked him to make on her death bed. Dispite his ability and what he's done to raise the profile of the FMA over the past 30 years, she was still afraid that individuals would be knocking at his door should he go. To be honest, with the way things are in the FMA community, I find it hard to believe that if he's been there it would have been kept quiet for this long. I don;t know, maybe I'm too cynical.

We've gone off track somewhat though from the original question.

Doug

krys

18-Jun-2004, 02:41 PM

I know Magda was in the Philippines for two months but never heard about Innosanto training in the Philippines... Who is the master he is supposed to have trained with?

shootodog

18-Jun-2004, 02:57 PM

yea, most of THE MOST dangerous men in the world have moved to the U.S.
but inosanto went back to the phillipines and trained there too. Most of the
greatest martial artists live in california. trust me dude...i have seen many amazing things happen in martial arts :p

the most dangerous you say? in the land where you can sue because you trip on something?

you don't encounter ubusan ng lahi vendettas that end bloodlines. over here, if you even hint that you've created something or mastered something or can teach something, there'd be a long line of guys wanting to challengeyou to "play" (i.e. duel). i tell you, on these islands, mcdojo-ism were nipped in the bud before dueling was outlawed. in the north, tribal wars are still fought. they still headhunt. in the south, juramentado is still practiced. come over here sometime and see for yourself what "dangerous men" look like.

p.s. should guro dan come here, the grand tuhon (one really dangerous man who doesn't lve in so.cal.) would've made a big thing out of it (hell, most would).

p.p.s. the late gm antonio "tatang" ilustrisimo lived here all his life. his pre war body count was in the 20s, his wartime body count was in the 100s, his post war body count was pretty high as well. go ask guro dan what he thinks of "tatang" or the grand tuhon or even guro jun for that matter.

Matt_Bernius

18-Jun-2004, 03:47 PM

p.s. should guro dan come here, the grand tuhon (one really dangerous man who doesn't lve in so.cal.) would've made a big thing out of it (hell, most would).

Actaully Gaje spent time in Cali and throughout the states, until things got... well... so living in the states wasn't the best option for him. And with Grand Tuhon's style, the entire world would have known if Guro Dan visited. Does Grand Tuhon still post on the escrima digest (in ALL CAPs?).

And there is no question about how dangerous Grand Tuhon is *shudder*

p.p.s. the late gm antonio "tatang" ilustrisimo lived here all his life. his pre war body count was in the 20s, his wartime body count was in the 100s, his post war body count was pretty high as well. go ask guro dan what he thinks of "tatang" or the grand tuhon or even guro jun for that matter.

I can say that Guro Dan has great respect for all of them. I actually first met Guro Jun at a Guro Dan seminar. And I've had the chance to talk with Guro Dan about Tuhon (ask Guro Dan about the time he accidently slashed Gaje).

- Matt

jkdKNIFER

18-Jun-2004, 04:53 PM

it's a private video of inosanto, only 2 people have it, inosanto and my guro's guro...i know what i have seen, just cause you guys havent seen it doesnt mean it doesnt exist...who cares, drop it

DeeTee

18-Jun-2004, 05:10 PM

"it's a private video of inosanto, only 2 people have it, inosanto and my guro's guro...i know what i have seen, just cause you guys havent seen it doesnt mean it doesnt exist...who cares, drop it"

Jesus, you cant listen to differing opinions without spitting the dummy? No-one said that the tape doesn't exist. You said you've seen it so it obviously does. All that's being disputed is whether or not it was shot in the Philippines. How do you know it was? Where abouts? who was the Instructor? If you had an answer to any of these questions then you might be able to put another myth to bed regarding whether or not Guro Inosanto has been there and take away the stick from those who use it as a reason to beat him with.

Diego_Vega

19-Jun-2004, 02:08 AM

I've also heard about that video. It doesn't matter. Fact is I'd love to bring Guro Dan to the PHilippines. Guro Dan is a great, great martial artist and when most people talk about FMA, most of what they speak should have a footnote giving some kind of credit to Guro Dan Inosanto. Through his eloquence and humility, Guro Dan has done more to promote FMA than anyone else. He isn't self-agrandizing, quite the opposite, he always seems to be at pains to credit somebody else for a particular technique or approach.

Most deadly men? Every country has their share. Most of them are exactly where they should be, the graveyard or prison. "Deadliness", for civillians, has less to do with skill than it does lacking a moral compass. The FMA needs less deadly men and more teachers. I'd rather study with a skillfull teacher like Guro Dan than a thug with a high body count.

Actually in the southern Philippines killing somebody isn't a great deal...peoples may give first hand explanations for interesting moves...

I wish i could argue with this statement.

shootodog

19-Jun-2004, 02:14 AM

i agree with don diego. what this country needs are more teachers and less killers. hell, any country could benefit from that.

LabanB

19-Jun-2004, 02:27 AM

All that's being disputed is whether or not it was shot in the Philippines.

The important, and over cyberspace the impossible, bit to prove!

As I said, my friend who is under Cass Magda etc. Could he have been inadvertantly misled? Yep. Could the section with Guro I have been filmed before/after CM trip to the PI? Yep. Can I add anymore to the tapes provenance? Nope!

I do find it hard to believe that Guro I has not been to the Pi, whether to train or research or doing the "Roots" bit. I know of one American-Filipino who went back to the Pi after leaving as a child, simply to see the relations he had very little memory of, as well as to train.

As they say at the end of most thrillers..." I guess thats just something we'll never know..." ;-)

Bill

Pat OMalley

19-Jun-2004, 09:40 PM

All this arguing about whether Guro I has or has not. Ask the man for god sake that is the easy way to solve the problem, and ask him who he trained with in the PI. because I have been travelling there for years and trained with many and none of them have heard of Guro I comming to the PI even if just for a visit.
So I a am pretty sure that one of you out their know of someone who trains Directly with Guro I who can just ask him.
OH by they way, I used to train with someone who trained directly with Guro I and he also said he has never been there. But I have not trained with him since 1992 so he could have gone then, but then again. ASK THE MAN. :yeleyes:

Best regards

Pat

Pat OMalley

19-Jun-2004, 09:49 PM

yea, most of THE MOST dangerous men in the world have moved to the U.S.

Was that through choice or did the CIA take them their for questioning.
Sorry everybody could not resist that hehehehe.

So everybody, GOOD NEWS, the world is a safer place as long as you avoid California, USA. We can all sleep easily in our beds tonite as all the most dangerous guys are over there. So if anyone tells you they are dangerous or threaten to kill you just laugh it off, cause we al know they are lying, Cause jkdKNIFER told us.

Be safe

Pat O'Malley :p

Diego_Vega

20-Jun-2004, 02:20 AM

Pat OMalley

20-Jun-2004, 11:58 AM

If Guro Dan were to come to the PHilippines, there is not doubt in my mind that it would greatly benefit FMA in the land of its birth. Everybody keeps asking who Guro Dan may or may not have studied with here in the Pinas, or whether he came at all. Well, honestly, many of the so called masters here would benefit from studying from Dan. He should come here to teach and spread the word of FMA.

Absolutely, but maybe he would have to be carefull for young bucks like to make a name for themselves and he did say in his book the the FMA was dead in the Philippines and it's new home was Stockton in California, but I think was a misinformed veiw on his part when he first wrote his book many moons ago.

But I go back to my point earlier, get someone who trains with him directly to ASK THE MAN I am sure he would have no reason to lie and he could tell us when, were and who he trained with in the Philippines. Please one of you just ask him.

Best regards

Pat

YODA

20-Jun-2004, 01:12 PM

I'll ask my DBMA Instructor - Marc Denny. He has breakfast with Guro Inosanto once a week.

krys

20-Jun-2004, 02:02 PM

Well, honestly, many of the so called masters here would benefit from studying from Dan. He should come here to teach and spread the word of FMA.

I fail to see what filipino masters with real fighting experience could learn from "guro" innosanto...

Ad McG

20-Jun-2004, 02:09 PM

I fail to see what filipino masters with real fighting experience could learn from "guro" innosanto...

Have you met him? Do you know his history? Have you even seen a millionth of what he knows? Do you know that he is 67 years old and could still probably tan your hide? I could continue, but just know that he widely regarded as one of the greatest martial arts teachers ever.

krys

20-Jun-2004, 03:03 PM

Have you met him? Do you know his history?
No I didn't meet him personally because I don't learn Arnis in seminars, I prefer to learn at the source: the Philippines.... I read his book what do I care of his history? He insulted filipino masters in this book and lots of things he said are dubious...

Other instructors I know in France who met him don't have that high opinion of him too....I have seen him and what he shows on tapes and trained in his system for a short time, didn't like it.... I also sparred with instructors who trained in his system (have to admit they weren't his direct students) and wasn't impressed at all...

Do you know that he is 67 years old and could still probably tan your hide?
I've only done arnis for 10 years, I hope so for him given the time he is in fmas..... but there are older men in the philippines who would tan mine/yours much quicker.....

I could continue, but just know that he widely regarded as one of the greatest martial arts teachers ever.
teacher doesn't equate to fighter..... peoples in the in the west didn't have that many opportunities to see real filipino grandmasters to compare with...

Diego_Vega

20-Jun-2004, 03:13 PM

I fail to see what filipino masters with real fighting experience could learn from "guro" innosanto...

I'm Filipino, I do FMA and I live in the Philippines. I've seen many of the masters here and abroad. Guro Dan would find something to learn from anyone. What could the masters here learn from Guro Dan? How about pedagogy. The FMA needs less guys who act like Mike Tyson and Fernando Vargas and more guys like Nacho Baristain, Freddie Roach and Nick Durandt. The PHilippines has enough fighters, we need more teachers and innovators. Guro Dan's strength is in his ability to communicate and excite the student about the subject matter. "Guro" is actually a perfect title for Mr. Inosanto, because that's what he does best.

Just out of curiousity Krys, have you met him or at least participated in one of his classes or seminars? Have your Filipino teachers met or seen him? Or is it just the typical alimasag (crab) mentality to put down other Filipinos?

shootodog

21-Jun-2004, 02:31 AM

pssst...boss diego, it's talangka (as in taba ng talangka).

jkdKNIFER

21-Jun-2004, 09:02 PM

most great FMA teachers, are gangsters, murderers, killers, kali...or whatever is used by the gangsters in the phillippines...still to this day.... :woo: Bang, bang...

Pat OMalley

21-Jun-2004, 09:23 PM

most great FMA teachers, are gangsters, murderers, killers, kali...or whatever is used by the gangsters in the phillippines...still to this day.... :woo: Bang, bang...

jkdKNIFER have you actually been to the Philippines let alone met any real Eskrimadors and Masters from their. What makes you think they are all Gangsters and killers???

As a matter of fact many of the REAL Eskrimadors are very well educated and hard working normal people who love the art not only for it's practicalities, but also for it's gracefullness.

One of my main instructors in the Philippines is a top Barrester, another is a Barangay Captain and ex long term worker for the San Miguel Brewery, I can go on.

Yes in the past many may have had to use their skills to defend themselves, but this does not make them killers or gangsters.

That means that 90% of us using this forum are killers and gangsters (for god sake dont tell my mum).

Let me ask you a question. Just how long have you been training in JKD / Kali and aiding and abeting gangsters, also "are you realy in touch with reality"???

Mabuhay from a fellow gangster

Pat O'Malley

Diego_Vega

22-Jun-2004, 01:16 AM

most great FMA teachers, are gangsters, murderers, killers, kali...or whatever is used by the gangsters in the phillippines...still to this day.... :woo: Bang, bang...

Boss,

just out of curiousity, who's been telling you all these things about FMA and the Philippines?

david f

22-Jun-2004, 08:40 AM

jkdKnifer-

Are you simply an imbecile or simply someone who has been fed the wrong information by those who are teaching you?

In studying the filipino martial arts or any martial arts for that matter, possessing respect for the martial art you are studying, the masters of the art and the culture in which it was born and evolved from is paramount. Your posts show that your training is lacking in all areas of FMA.

Of course there are those who have trained in martial arts who have used it for the wrong reasons. This was also the case with senior japanese karate masters who were known to have used prisoners of war as their human test dummies during W11. Some chinese kung fu kwoons were associated with triads in the past. These are simply a small percetage of of the total numer of practitioners.

At first I thought that you were misguided and misinformed. Now I have come to the conclusion that you are simply a fool attempting to come across as if you are proficient and aware of the true FMA. I am sitting here with two grandmasters of FMA who are respected inside the Philippines and outide. As they say, there are going to be a lo of gradmasters and masters who are goin to be angry with you. :mad:

The late Ted Lucaylucay was a well respected maestro of FMA. He was respected because of not only his skills , but also because he was aware of the conduct, honor and respect a true pracititoner of FMA should exhibit. You are a disgrace who should do him the favour of respecting his legacy, name and reputation by removing his logo from your postings.

ALL I SAY TO YOU IS THIS:THERE IS NO MEDICINE FOR IGNORANCE. :)

shootodog

22-Jun-2004, 09:24 AM

most great FMA teachers, are gangsters, murderers, killers, kali...or whatever is used by the gangsters in the phillippines...still to this day.... :woo: Bang, bang...

who you calling a gangster? don diego? hala!

Ad McG

22-Jun-2004, 11:46 PM

teacher doesn't equate to fighter..... peoples in the in the west didn't have that many opportunities to see real filipino grandmasters to compare with...

I never said he was a great fighter, but I do know that he is a GREAT teacher with a VAST knowledge base, hence why anybody can learn something from him, whoever they are.

mike dizon

23-Jun-2004, 12:49 AM

jkdknifer-

I dont think you have been to the philippines so what gives you the right to talk like this? Who are you and what is your experience here? I think you are nothing but dugong aso!

Andy Murray

23-Jun-2004, 12:59 AM

He's expressed an opinion.

If anyone feels insulted, please report the post.

Otherwise, let's get the thread back on track and cool the retaliation please.

juramentado

23-Jun-2004, 03:51 PM

most great FMA teachers, are gangsters, murderers, killers, kali...or whatever is used by the gangsters in the phillippines...still to this day.... :woo: Bang, bang...

Oh ok.

I have to agree with Andy. yes, that's you're opinion and yes you are entitled to it.

Here's mine:

Very unfortunately for you, you just displayed your newbie ignorance. You seem to forget that some of the people in this FMA forum do actually practice FMA, in the Philippines of all places. Even the foreign practitioners here have years of training. Bad move...

Ok, I'll let the rest of the FMA psychos here carve a few more grooves into your online hide while Yoda and I contemplate your social suicide.

Cheers :)

*hehehe...I'm baaaaack

Scotty Dog

23-Jun-2004, 04:41 PM

*hehehe...I'm baaaaack

Thank God,I've been losing me hair here :p

YODA

23-Jun-2004, 06:15 PM

*hehehe...I'm baaaaack

YAY!!!! J's back! :p

Pssst: By the way J - I'm going to the airport tomorrow morning. "The package" has finally cleared Customs. Waaahoooooooo :D

Adam

23-Jun-2004, 06:17 PM

Welcome back J. We been missing you :D

Andy Murray

23-Jun-2004, 06:20 PM

YAY!!!! J's back! :p

Pssst: By the way J - I'm going to the airport tomorrow morning. "The package" has finally cleared Customs. Waaahoooooooo :D

Burgling Yoda just became a whole lot more hazardous! :p

LabanB

24-Jun-2004, 01:08 AM

Hi Andy,

>Burgling Yoda just became a whole lot more hazardous! <

Nope, just go tomorrow morning.he'll be at the airport ;-)

Bill

shootodog

24-Jun-2004, 02:32 AM

Cheers :)

*hehehe...I'm baaaaack

dangit boy! where the hell've you been? he said that the gt was a gangstah! can you imagine guro jdl as a gangstah? hahaha! how about guro romel tortal?

juramentado

24-Jun-2004, 04:37 AM

:)

I'm amazed Yoda's new toy cleared customs. "ornamental objects"? Hehehehe.

Sorry for the absence everyone. Life and work has been incredibly busy and even my practice has been affected. Nevertheless, I'm back to help do some troll clearing :D

Shootdog, don't sweat jkdKNIFER display of ignorance. Probably the result of some misinformation and kwentong kutsero (the proverbial tall tales from the neighborhood horse drawn carriage driver..a tagalog term for unlikely stories), not really that far from those who think kung fu will make you fly and ninjas are still running around in Tokyo. Smells a lot like newbie trollage...

GT Gaje, Guro Mel and Guro Jun gangstas? oh man telling that to their faces is a death sentence..LOL

elhiggito: Don't worry bro, I'm back to help out. Thanks for holding the fort :)

Adam: yeah I miss this crazy community. Haven't been able to last long in chat though. For some reason I get disconnected (or kicked) not soon after. :)

Diego_Vega? is that you? :D

jkdKNIFER

25-Jun-2004, 07:51 PM

lhommedieu

25-Jun-2004, 10:54 PM

Hmmm...

Nope - not going for the bait. You're obviously a troll, and a very young troll at that. Best of luck in your martial arts training.

Best,

Steve Lamade

Andy Murray

25-Jun-2004, 11:07 PM

I think the Tai Chi comment is misread, because the comma is in the wrong place. ;)

lhommedieu

25-Jun-2004, 11:59 PM

Agreed.

(K)ali is not a beautiful graceful art; like tai chi, its purpose is to kill.

Best,

Steve

Andy Murray

26-Jun-2004, 12:03 AM

I was thinking more.........

"I know that they are killers, kali is not a beautiful, graceful art like tai chi, its purpose is to kill."

;)

lhommedieu

26-Jun-2004, 12:17 AM

You say gelato, and I say gelato...

juramentado

26-Jun-2004, 04:18 AM

i know that they are killers, kali is not a beautiful graceful art, like tai chi, its purpose is to kill...kali has a kill or be killed mentality, i know of many kali GM who have killed to survive and dont hesistate to cut someone...and many gangters in the phillippines do use kali as a method of killing people, thats why its not popular in the phillipines...

still misinformed I see. Ok, allow me to enlighten you. Of course FMA is used to kill people. That was and is its intended purpose. And yes I would surmise that some of the GMs may have killed people. I read of one head of a style allegedly using his skills for union busting. I think a number of GMs used their skills against the Japanese during WWII, as assasins, and we're very good at that :)

But gangsters using FMA to kill people and that's what made it unpopular in the Philippines? Who told you this drivel? That's such a huge and false conclusion that it makes me wonder what else you've been told.

I strongly suggest that you mention your idea on FMA history to Guro Jun De Leon of Kali De Leon in Toronto or to Tuhon Gaje of Pekiti Tirsia. :rolleyes: :D

shootodog

26-Jun-2004, 07:24 AM

I strongly suggest that you mention your idea on FMA history to Guro Jun De Leon of Kali De Leon in Toronto or to Tuhon Gaje of Pekiti Tirsia. :rolleyes: :D

hey buddy, the kid's still young. why would youwant him to end his life by doing something like that? j/k.

jkdknifer, i suggest you think about it. kali is not a beautiful and graceful art? maybe your kali my dear boy is ugly, but not ours. have you ever seen guro jun de leon move? have you ever seen tha grand tuhon leo gaje, jr. move? kali can kill but to use a general statement that kalistas are killers and gangsters is not true. gangsters here in this country do not use kali. they use gunkata! :woo: :woo: :woo: salvaging for sale! anyone?

Freeform

26-Jun-2004, 12:12 PM

Having trained Tai Chi with Bill Kerr in Stirling I thought it should have read

kali is not a beautiful graceful art, like tai chi its purpose is to kill... ;)

Matt_Bernius

28-Jun-2004, 01:22 PM

jkdKNIFER,

Look, since you're sorta new here, I think it's important to point out that both Shooto and Juri both LIVE in the Phillipines. And the Guro's they train under are extremely highly regarded within the FMA communities. They are studying with the best of the best. Period. No question.

Basically, they are speaking from an EXTREME position of expertise. You're of course entitled to your opinions, but understand why we will call you on them. Quite frankly there are others on the board with far more first hand experience than hearsay.

- Matt

Pat OMalley

28-Jun-2004, 10:07 PM

(I) know that they are killers, (K)ali is not a beautiful graceful art, like tai chi, its purpose is to kill...(K)ali has a kill or be killed mentality, i know of many (K)ali GM who have killed to survive and dont hesistate to cut someone...and many gangters in the (P)hillippines do use (K)ali as a method of killing people, thats why its not popular in the (Philippines)phillipines...

I thought my spelling was crap but boy o boy. HEY YOUNG BOY wake up and smell the roses, you are obviously too young and too stupid to know real FMA from the the dribble you have been fed. Firstly who are these GM's that are killers and Gangsters, I have not met any of them, and let me tell you I have met more than a few. And secondly, when was the last time YOU were in the Philippines???

I think NEVER so do us all a favour, either have something constructive to say, or ask a question on a subject you know nothing about like "THE FILIPINO MARTIAL ARTS AND IT'S HISTORY" or jus go back to Disney land and talk to your freinds.

In otherwords, Talk sense or dont talk at all.

Good luck in you search for the REAL truth

Pat O'Malley :yeleyes:

YODA

28-Jun-2004, 10:17 PM

Come on Pat - don't beat around the bush. Tell us what you think :D

Pat OMalley

28-Jun-2004, 10:36 PM

Come on Pat - don't beat around the bush. Tell us what you think :D
Sorry mate, but you know me, I just keep on putting my big size 10 in my every so small and quiet mouth? ;)

But then again I am sure a few of have really wnated to say something along those lines, or is it just me :confused:

YODA

28-Jun-2004, 10:39 PM

Sorry mate, but you know me, I just keep on putting my big size 10 in my every so small and quiet mouth? ;)

But then again I am sure a few of have really wnated to say something along those lines, or is it just me :confused:
I agree with every word mate :D

Andy Murray

28-Jun-2004, 10:40 PM

I think we should ban Pat for losing his rag. :D

YODA

28-Jun-2004, 11:01 PM

I think we should ban Pat for losing his rag. :D

Losing it? Pat never had one - right Pat? :Angel:

Andy Murray

28-Jun-2004, 11:02 PM

Losing it? Pat never had one - right Pat? :Angel:

I meant his copy of 'Combat' of course. :Angel:

shootodog

29-Jun-2004, 02:18 AM

I thought my spelling was crap but boy o boy. HEY YOUNG BOY wake up and smell the roses, you are obviously too young and too stupid to know real FMA from the the dribble you have been fed. Firstly who are these GM's that are killers and Gangsters, I have not met any of them, and let me tell you I have met more than a few. And secondly, when was the last time YOU were in the Philippines???

I think NEVER so do us all a favour, either have something constructive to say, or ask a question on a subject you know nothing about like "THE FILIPINO MARTIAL ARTS AND IT'S HISTORY" or jus go back to Disney land and talk to your freinds.

In otherwords, Talk sense or dont talk at all.

Good luck in you search for the REAL truth

Pat O'Malley :yeleyes:

took the words right out of my mouth! cheers pat!

jkdknifer, for the benefit of those studying a lesser kali than you, who is your guro? please reply since some of us might be joining the gt for his west coast seminars.

david f

29-Jun-2004, 02:45 AM

Pat,

I am glad that you came out and stated what should have been stated from the start.You still dont beat around the bust Pat!

jkdknifer is obviously either a youngster who has no grasp on the real martial art that we are studying or simply someone who takes whatever he is taught as gospel.

shootodog

29-Jun-2004, 03:51 AM

have pulled some strings and God willing, the tape in question will be in my possession quite soon.

brother teacher diego_vega: bring some sisig, i'll provide the cerveza. this should be interesting.

brother jur: will pm you if and when it gets here.

really, you could train on any tropical island and it would look like the pinas. unless i see jeepnees and san miguel beer (or ginebra san miguel gin), i won't believe it.

ps. jkdknifer: who is your guro?

Scotty Dog

29-Jun-2004, 09:29 AM

To JKDknifer

For whipping the forum into such a frenzy with just a scant 15 posts on MAP I hereby bestow on you the title of

Pat OMalley

01-Jul-2004, 09:10 PM

Losing it? Pat never had one - right Pat? :Angel:

I never lose it, well maybe never, or is it sometimes??

Oh sod it "ARGH LET ME AT HIM". Oops, sorry I mean, lets talk about this in a calm and cool manner.

God I must be getting softer in my old age.

Please, don't take away my copy of Combat, what will I do. :woo: :woo: :woo: :woo: :woo:

YODA

01-Jul-2004, 09:26 PM

Please, don't take away my copy of Combat, what will I do.

Ermmmm..... Andrex Bog Roll?

deCadena

02-Jul-2004, 03:08 AM

Let me take a whack at it. In any art particularly in FMA, it would be inevitable to have some bad eggs. Truth be told maybe some of them are really gangsters but with the usage of a generalizing statement is erroneous. Consequently, people here are a quick to defend which is of course admirable. If you would come down here in the PI and do say the statements you have written down I believe the GMs won't be angered at any of them but once you start weilding your weapon at their sight it's a totally different scenario. This simply means that Master's of the system are action oriented and not tongue absorbed...

You have the yakuzas and i believe that some of them do have training in japanese arts of combat. Do we dare to generalize?

Tone down a bit. Let's learn.

cheers!!!

jkdKNIFER

02-Jul-2004, 05:48 PM

Scotty Dog

02-Jul-2004, 05:54 PM

Pat OMalley

02-Jul-2004, 07:11 PM

you guys are hilarious, i know what i know, my guro? why do you care buddy?
getting all mad like little girls...ha ha ha ha ha :love: you guys think that FMA is a gracious and honorable art? its a art that uses swords, knives to be-head people, and read your history buddy...FMA has only been used to kill...not for competition,

Firstly, Thanks I am gald you realise we are funny and have a sense of humour, we also have a sense of reality too, I don't know if we can say the same for you young boy (after all that is what you are is it not).
Secondly, if you can not see the grace in the art and beleive it has no honor then well I am affraid you have missed the boat all together and I feel sorry for you because, you do not know what you are missing.

I am affraid what you know when it comes to the FMA or the martial arts as a whole is absolutely NOTHING.

The Samurai used swords and knives to be-head people, the knights of old done the same, even the Shaolin Monks were known to partake in alittle be-heading in battle, all of them where known to be honorable and gracefull in the art, the same is true of real Eskrimadors, Arnisadors and Kalistas, many who fought the Japanese in WWII are testimony to this fact, the same I am affraid cannot be said of you young lad. You have no grace, you have no honor and most of all I feel you have no knowledge of FMA.

As for reading our FMA history, I know many of us here in the Forum know much more about the history of the FMA than you do, your version of the history must have come from some who I feel must be making it up as he/she goes along just to keep your young impressionable mind impressed.

As for the FMA having not being used for competition all can can say to you is DOH. I myself have won over 40 titles in FMA competition, I am sure their are a few more here that have partaken in the competition side of the FMA. Although many of these competition participants will also be the first to admit that the COMPETITION side to the FMA is a training tool to be used to benefit certain aspects of thier combat skills, it is at the end of the day a competition between fellow FMA practitioners.
And for you information that may help in your research in to the history of the FMA even some GM's have partaken in competition such as the first WEKAF World Championships held in Cebu City way back in 1989 and long before this in the Barrio Fiesta in many towns and villages.

Many here have been practicing the FMA with grace and honor long before you were a twinkle in your old-mans eye and many have on numoerous occasions asked you to name your Guro, show us the video, give us the proof and tell us who these GM Gangsters and Killers are. But so far what have you given us, NOTHING except but infantile responces with no evidance, background or even standing that you have in-fact have any base in the REAL FMA ARTS (ART FORM).

Your head is simply stuck in the clouds and you need to pull your head out of you backside and have a good look around at the real world, you never know with a little honor you may wel learn something.

So unless you have any usefull information that is based in fact then I suggest you go back to your Guro and keep on training because I am sure that by the time you are good enough to even share the same room with many of the FMA practioners here they will either be too old to care or have been a long time dead and their Grandchildren will be passing on their history to their own children.

I wish you well in your search for the real FMA because I know you still have a long raod to walk young man and at the moment I hate to tell you this, "YOU ARE WALKING IN THE WRONG DIRECTION". :o :eek: :( :cry:

lhommedieu

02-Jul-2004, 11:32 PM

...deep down inside you love me!

Ah...the crux of the matter...

Not too deep I hope....

My love, you know where I live...but where do you live?

Best,

Steve

david f

03-Jul-2004, 01:02 AM

In Australia we refer to people like jkdknifer as a Muppet.

In answer to your question about who his teacher is Pat, I think we will find that the only FMA training the boy in diapers has participated in, is via his Unique Publications videos (not that there are anything wrong with their videos).

Diego_Vega

03-Jul-2004, 02:18 AM

Well... he's keeping the thread alive?

But getting back on topic, I do recall hearing Guro Dan credit Juanito Lacoste with most of his fma empty hands (especially the grappling aspect) and the corte (close in) fighting range of his stick work. What I found informative was that the grappling looked very much like catch-wrestling or even bjj, but Guro Dan was adamant that it was fma that he learned from Mr. Lacoste and then he would proceed to show the technical differences between that art and catch or bjj.

Unfortunately I don't recall much in the way of Mr. Lacoste's own background (lineage?). Does anyone know if he was born in the United States or the Philippines (which part?)? Who were his teachers and what style did they do? Tragically, the only other thing I know about Mr. Lacoste was how he was murdered.

Scotty Dog

03-Jul-2004, 08:54 AM

Nice bringing the thread back on Track DV :D

hopefully this helps as well

From "Dan Inosanto, The Man, The Teacher, The Artist"

JUANITO (JOHN) LACOSTE

Guro John LaCoste taught Dan kali-escrima-kuntao silat (bersilat) panatukan, dumog-kapulubud, and panjakan. Dan's father, Sebastian, took him to meet LaCoste before Dan went into the army, but it wasn't until 1969 or 1970 that Dan understood what LaCoste was trying to teach him.
Born somewhere in the central Philippines in 1888, Guro LaCoste studied and was familiar with many different styles, but his favorites were the Muslim system of the southern Philippines, especially two styles from the island of Cebu and one from the island of Occidental Negros. Guro LaCoste
moved from the Philippines to Hawaii and was deported after he headed a major labor strike that cost the lives of a dozen farm workers and 22 "policemen." He came back to California several years later, enlisted in the military, and was eventually decorated for heroism. Due to citizenship issues, he borrowed the name "LaCoste" so he could stay longer in the army. When he was finally discharged, he settled in Stockton, California, where he received several commendations from the Stockton police for catching criminals. Tragically, he was murdered in 1977, shot in the head from behind by a person with whom he'd had a heated political discussion.
According to Guro LaCoste, in one month he could teach anyone how to fight and defeat any style of escrima by showing how to block and counter the first two strikes. From him, Guro Dan learned the versatility of the Filipino martial arts and the use of trapping and checking hands. Guro Dan felt that Guro LaCoste was a master with the stick, dagger, long blade, and empty hands (Inosanto, Foon, and Johnson 1980: 17).
Dan Inosanto believes LaCoste's system was one of the best in providing an overall explanation of the Filipino arts and that LaCoste was one of the best all-around instructors with whom he has studied. LaCoste had 12 categories of instruction and could relate each category to the other, particularly with empty-hand techniques.
LaCoste liked to start students with the long and short sticks derived from the sword-and-dagger method. His feeling was that with a complete comprehension of the long and short weapons, the student would understand the application of the other categories.
LaCoste was a spiritual man whose personal philosophy was that you could learn from anyone. This appealed to Dan Inosanto and was one of the reasons he began to cross-train with other instructors. LaCoste even sent Dan to different kali and escrima instructors, something virtually unheard of in the martial arts world of the early 1960s.

Crucible

06-Aug-2004, 04:40 AM

"Guro John LaCoste taught Dan kali-escrima-kuntao silat (bersilat) panatukan, dumog-kapulubud, and panjakan."
"but his favorites were the Muslim system of the southern Philippines,"

Curious, Anyone know what aspects of the Inosanto Kali blend specificly is from kuntao silat and what the origin of Juanito Lacoste's silat knowledge is?

krys

06-Aug-2004, 01:58 PM

Bersilat would refer to Malaysian silat. Crucible I pm'd you.

Crucible

07-Aug-2004, 04:30 PM

"Guro LaCoste studied and was familiar with many different styles, but his favorites were the Muslim system of the southern Philippines"

Bersilat may refer to Malaysian silat, but it doesn't explain this statement. I wonder if his study of southern Philipine arts was limited specificly to just the weapon arts or to kuntao or silat. If it was weapon arts it may gotten integrated with his escrima. If he did train in Malaysian silat, how? Was he a merchant seaman, did he pass through Mindanao to get there? If so it makes sense he might of stayed in Mindanao for a while. At the same time the JKD pangamut, Maphilindo silat and Inosanto blend I've seen doesn't remind me of arts I've seen from Mindanao. Mind you, I don't know what aspects of JKD Kali are specificly from Juanito Lacoste, my experiance of JKD is as an observer not a practitioner and I have so much still to see and learn of the arts in the southern Philipines. Thoughts anyone?

Moebius

10-Oct-2004, 03:51 AM

"I fail to see what filipino masters with real fighting experience could learn from "guro" innosanto..."

Well, for one thing, humility, openness to new methods, cross-system appreciation, compassion, a willingness to share (unabridged) the depth of his knowledge with even the most frustrating students.

"...teacher doesn't equate to fighter..... peoples in the in the west didn't have that many opportunities to see real filipino grandmasters to compare with..."

You have that backwards, sir: A great fighter does not equate to a great teacher.
What the hell good is a great fighter if they cannot explain to you how to develop that level of skill and insight?

A lot has been said about Guro Inosanto in this discussion, debating the facts of his training, the prowess of his teachers, and all the inherent arguments that come when you start dropping terms like master, dangerous, true art, yada yada...

The fact of the matter is that when you get approached in the alley, when you get jumped in the men's room of the bar, when you get chased down by a road rage maniac, it's not going to matter where you teacher trained, what system is better than what system, or who said what to verify so and so's reputation - it will still come down to you, and only you.

When we talk about mastery, the qualities of one who is seen as a master of a system, shouldn't we prize more highly the things that they can offer us, than the things they can take away?

I also think, in my not so humble opinion, that those who would question the contributions of someone like Guro Inosanto should spend a seminar or two to evaluate the experience of his training in person. Who knows, you might even learn something.

- Moe

ptkali778

10-Oct-2004, 05:31 AM

a qoute from my guro "training with guro Dan Inosanto, is like drinking out of a fire hydrant"

silentwarrior

10-Oct-2004, 08:28 PM

i know very little about DI except for the fact that he trained with Bruce Lee and helped him form JKD. What kind of Eskrima did DI train in? i myself train in Inayan Eskrima and absolutly love it! but some day i think it would be cool to check out JKD or Inosanto Kali (in my idea they are pretty closely related).

krys

11-Oct-2004, 01:44 AM

First of all what I have to say concerns fmas in general and isn't a personal attack on DI.

You have that backwards, sir: A great fighter does not equate to a great teacher.
What the hell good is a great fighter if they cannot explain to you how to develop that level of skill and insight?

At least there is a chance to learn how to fight from a great fighter, many masters of old weren't good teachers but perpetuated their art and produced good fighters.
If the instructor doesn't know how to fight what can he teach?
Humility, compassion, open mindedness, fine, but I don't need to go to a martial arts class to learn this... My first escrima instructor (non filipino) was a nice guy, patient, compassionate, who could easily pass his knowledge but what he taught was of no use. I'd had already bled to death had I kept training with him....

The fact of the matter is that when you get approached in the alley, when you get jumped in the men's room of the bar, when you get chased down by a road rage maniac, it's not going to matter where you teacher trained, what system is better than what system, or who said what to verify so and so's reputation - it will still come down to you, and only you.

The way you train, the way you fight...... Ultimately it comes to you but believe me if your instructor prepared you only for the gym you will have a hard time the day somebody armed with bad intentions pays you a visit at your home in order to talk business...

silentwarrior

11-Oct-2004, 02:47 AM

i agree. but how did you know what he taught you was of little use? i currently take Inayan Eskrima and think of it as very affectiective but what you say worries.

krys

11-Oct-2004, 11:55 AM

i agree. but how did you know what he taught you was of little use?

After two months he made the mistake of sparing with my training partner and I....
At that time I got only the basics of arnis but had some experience in silat and boxing (some knowledge of footwork and timing), I kept on hitting his hands, when he tried a silly jump I even hit him in the groin with my stick and he fell to the floor.....My t.p. did the same kind of things... When he tried his panantukan with a guy who'd done 1 year of boxing he got easily knocked down...

The owner of the gym, Charles Joussolt, an internationaly known silat expert who has a lot of street experience kept on telling us what he was teaching was B.S and that we should stop practicing with him. He later closed this arnis class and kicked the instructor out...