suggestions welcome for my schedule to develop flexibility for capoeira

[tankboy]

Hi,

I am new to this forum, but i have had a good look around and it looks like you people know about martial arts and training. I would like you to look at my training program and see if you can suggest some improvements (I have
a couple of specific questions I will get to in a minute).

Quick bit of background:
I am 31, fairly fit for surfing, running, cycling, yoga, and in the last year parkour (google it) and with medium flexibility. I did karate for 10 years, did some kickboxing in
Thailand, but I never got down to full splits. Coming off an 8 year break from martial arts tho (mostly spend surfing), tho the last couple of years I have been running cycling swimming and doing yoga. However my flexibility is lacking, esp dynamic flexibility for kicks etc. I miss being flexible, and I have taken up capoeira (also I have a back complaint, and flexibility training makes it much much better).

Goals for my training regime(in order of priority):

1. Increased flexibility for kicking etc in capoeira.
2. Front and side splits (I know there is a school of thought that says you don't need splits to kick well - if so I want to be able to do splits anyway, just so I can!)

A summary of my program:

Basically work out twice a day: warm up, dynamic stretches, kicks, (warm down??? see #7) and passive stretches, and soon I will add in PNF or Isometrics (which???) into the evening workout as #6. My rough theory of stretching (which worked well for me in Thailand) is to get all hot and sweaty, and then stretch (Iso/PNF followed by passive).

Here it is in detail.I welcome any comments and feedback.

Daily schedule:

Morning workout(straight out of bed):

1. Make coffee and sip at it as I start to warm up - a key to being able to do it straight out of bed!

2. Joint rotations, gentle static stretches, more joint rotations, more gentle stretches, basically gradually picking up the pace as
I get a little warmer (and as that coffee starts to take effect)

3. 5-20mins of aerobic activity: sometimes a light run, sometimes areobics inside (jumping jacks, shadow boxing, monkey walk)

4. Kurz's dynamic kicking stretching - front side and back. Usually one set of 15-20 per exercise per leg (I find this adequate to get my maximum stretch). Been doing these in the mornings for a couple of years now so I am used to them.

5. Kicking practice - basically all my kicks (about 7 different types: front, side thrust, roundhouse, crescent, reverse cresent, spinning crescent, etc) approx 10 kicks on each leg.

6. Set of crunches and a set of back extensions - a little extra strength training for the core (unnecessary???)

7. QUESTION 1: should I include 5mins of aerobic warm-down activity? Or is the kicking enough??

8. Passive stretches - sit down and touch toes (my very weakest stretching direction), front splits both ways, side splits,
sit on floor legs spread in a V and go down to each leg and to the middle, then lastly cobra stretch
(seems to be a big factor in keeping my bad back from being bad)

Evening workout:
Essentially the same at the moment (minus the coffee) except I have a longer #3 (I run for 1/2 hour as my aerobic
warm up) and I dont do #6 (the crunches).

Over the week

I have only done a week or so of this so I going to wait until my legs get used to this. I have slight stiffness at the
moment, but not really sore. I am planning on waiting until this stiffness abates and I start to feel loose (or should I just start it anyway????) before
adding PNF or Isometric stretching (one day on one day off) as #6 in the evening workout. On the off days I will
do the rest of the workout, just skip the PNF/Iso.

I do this most days except when the evening workout is replaced with capoeira training (friday and saturday evening).
However I am not so devoted that I train twice a day every day no matter what. I follow my body and my mood, doing
a lot if my body and mind get their groove on, and not forcing it if I am feeling slow and sluggish (in body or in mind) -
this keeps some variety, stops training being a chore and also presumably helps guard against
injuries and overtraining. Thus sometimes one of these workouts gets replaced with a surf or cycle ride on average twice a week.

My approach to complete rest days is not to build them in, they spring up on their own
every so often (e.g. if I go to the beach with my wife).

QUESTION 2:
It occurs to me that this might be a bit much kicking, and that I could miss the kicking from the morning workout. On the other hand, the principle of "train what you want to do" means practice those kicks. Are those kicks still flexibility training, or sport-specific workout training?

QUESTION 3:
Should I add in some weight training? Kurz (in Scientific Stretching) recommends it, but here I get a little confused.
If I need weight training,
I guess I need to do squats and deadlifts (any other exercises???) followed by isometrics. Presumably the rest of my workout
could be pretty similar, just adding in the weight training as #6. Do you think I need to do this? And if so, how
often? Once a week? Twice? More?? And how many sets and reps?
Not interested in gaining muscle mass or anything, the focus with the weight training (if you kind people think i should
include it) is very firmly on the flexibility. If I do go to the gym tho, I will do some crunches etc
after the isometrics and before the warm-down.

Sorry this post is a bit long, I wanted to give a clear idea of my training program and where my development is at right now. Thanks kindly for any advice anyone has to offer.

[tankboy]

hmmm, 27 views and no replies. Either my routine is perfect, or no one here knows much about flexibility. Or my post was too long i guess. I'll try another forum. thanks for reading anyway.

[flaming]

Perhaps a mod could move this to the capiboira forum. Ive never seen that much stretching before i do PNF once a day and thats working for me 3 sets of each exercise.

[bushidoka]

Hey Tank, how are ya' doing? I'll give you some input.
This is a lot of stretching for sure. There is no benefit to stretching for more than 15 min. Proven. if you wish, I will find a data source to show this. There is a point of diminished returns when stretching, where no matter how long you stretch in a session, you will have no greater benificial return.
You seem to have all the right ingredients, those being a combination of passive and dynamic stretching exercises, and though kicking itself is not a stretching exercise, it is a great warm-up.
Try doing your weight training on opposing days to your stretching. too much running in the beginning of your stretching regime will slow your progress.
Keeping the muscles warm before, during and after stretching is great, this will definatly speed your progress.
Weight training and stretching takes a very fine balancing act indeed, though it is possible to gain mass and flexibility at the same time, it is much easier to gain flexibility without the weights.
Not sure how much of this helps you Tank, I will try to answer more specifically if you can narrow your questions down.

[tankboy]

thanks for the replies,

Bushidoka, Kurtz seems to regard weight training as vital to increased flexibility, is the main reason why I am thinking of including it. I appreciate your point about the fine balancing act tho, getting that right in the past has proved tricky.

You could be right that I am doing a bit much, and also I can see that too much running would be counterproductive. I will think about scaling the running back a little, make sure it is just a warm-up. I guess I have found flexibility elusive in the past, so thought maybe I was not doing enough.

Vigorous kicking workout yesterday evening, feeling stiff today, again I mgiht be doing a little much, will perhaps scale back the kicking in the morning and just do the dynamics. Frankly I rather struggled to get a good passive stretch this morning.

Specific questions:
1. For weight training, what exercises should I be doing? Any others apart from squats and deadlifts? I will do isometrics after the weights

2. For the time limit of 15 mins and diminished returns, are you refering to passive stretching?

3. Assuming that I am doing too much, can you suggest a more rational workload and weekly routine? I am now thinking weights twice a week (with isometrics) say monday and thurs, and dynamic stretching and kicking on the days I dont do weights(ie tue and wed). Fri and Sat are capoeira training, and sunday would be a rest (or other non-stretching non-weights activity, most likely surfing). I would still do dynamic followed by passive stretching in the mornings, but miss out all the kicks.
How does that sound?

Thanks again for your input, I was getting lonely with no replies :love:

[bushidoka]

lol. Any time Tank.
Nothing wrong with resistance training and flex training, only the heavier the weight you use, the harder it is to maintain a stretch, you have to be more diligent. It is also harder to stretch existing muscle than it is to train new muscle. In other words, it is better to have flexibility, then add body mass, than it is to be muscular and try to gain a stretch. stretching before and after weights will greatly help, before the muscle starts to tighten. The more lactic acid build up in the muscle, the harder it will be to get a deep safe stretch.
Static stretch mornings and/or night, dynamic before and after weights.
Some school of thought proclaims a combination of the two in the same session, but the only advantage I see here is to the MA club with limited time to stretch out their students.
remember Tank, the body gets stronger with rest, not killing yourself working out. All the exercise in the world will do no good if you are over trained. Take your time, and the end result will actually happen faster.
If interested in weight routine, let me know your equiptment and strength or mass being the goal

[tankboy]

Yep, I think you are right, I am a little overtrained at the moment. I have been trying to mimic my most successful period of flexibility training (kickboxing in thailand) but that may not be what I need to do here.
(I was 23! I'm 31 now!)

My goal regarding weights is pretty much to become more flexible, following Kurtz's recommendations. The purpose seems to be to develop strength throughout the range of motion, and to generally develop strenght in legs (quads and hamstrings) and lower back (and correspondingly work the abs too) through compound exercises, then do the isometrics.

Other than that I'd just as soon not do weight training at all, I prefer more general training like running, swimming, parkour, surfing and capoeira. According to Kurtz tho I need strength training to develop flexibility. Presumably I need strength rather than mass (I am training for flexibility not for the beach). I will go to a gym so will have access to any and all equipment. Can you suggest a sensible routine for my gym days? And a sensible weekly schedule of training?

Also, do you have any experience with Kurtz's method? Many people seem to swear by it.

Also Flaming - how do you combine PNF with your other workouts? In the course of a workout and over a weekly schedule, I mean.

Thanks for your input.

[flaming]

I do PNF after my workouts I workout mon-fri. You need the strength because the body has to know its able to get itself out of the splits without help, before it lets you go into them. Kurz recomends twice bodyweight in the deadlift and squat but thats a bit other the top so people don't sue him. I also do PNF at the weekend. Static stretching as very little benefit at all it just maintains flexibility.

[tankboy]

Hmm, I guess back when I weight trained (about 8 years ago) I used to squat approx my bodyweight 3x10 and that wasnt much, I can see how you could build up to twice bodyweight.

Coming around to the idea I need to get to the gym to develop the flexibility I want.

Thanks for your input flaming thats very helpful.

Another question: am I right that I should squat and deadlift on different days? I'd rather do them both the same day, but that sounds like too much, so thinking how to work my routine around other commitments, I mgiht run a routine like this:

mon: squat then iso or pnf (will have to experiment to decide which)
tue: caopeira training (just on my own)
wed: deadlift then iso
thurs: rest, maybe a surf or a swim.
fri: capoeira
sat: capoeira (2 days running isnt ideal but thats when we train) then pnf since tomorrow is a rest.
sun: rest or surf

every morning I will do a light (I will not be overzealous! I will keep it light!) run to warm up then do dynamic stretches, maybe passive stretch after that (or maybe skip the passive? Kurtz doesnt seem to think its necessary either).

Sounding better? Or still a little too much?

Thanks hugely for your input, :Angel: I've tried to figure this stuff out before and never really got it together - probably why I never realised my goal of increased flexibility. I want to get it right this time, and achieve my goal.

[flaming]

Looks good.

[tankboy]

thanks for your input!

I started the above program today, which meant deadlifts. Starting light, it is a loooonnngg time since I did any weights, and also I have a niggling back condition so I want to break it in slowly. I will post again in a few weeks to let you know how it is going.

thanks again!

[bushidoka]

I recommend doing squat and dl in same workout. Reason being is that muscle takes about 5-6 days to recver and rebuild, and both of these exercises utilize the same muscle groups, eg the glutes, quads, obliquussartorius etc. You will be strong for dl, but you will be dead for squat, thus, you are tearing the same muscle twice in a matter of days before it has a chance to repair and grow stronger.
if you want the front and side splits, these are the groups requiring stretch, lower back stretches, groin and inner thigh, buttocks, calves, hamstring, psoas, and quads.
do not use isometric stretches for the back. Lower back stretches like the lying buttock stretch will also stretch the abs and obliques, which is why I did not include them above.

[tankboy]

thanks bushidoka.

I wondered about that, seemed like there was not much rest between squat and deadlift. I could do dl on thursday, but thats still only a few days, and the day before 2 days of capoeira.

On the other hand, seems like doing them both on one day means working the same group of muscles (well, similar - quads, glutes and back with squat, then hamstrings glutes and back with deadlift) twice in one workout. Is that not a bit much if I am doing them heavy for strength?

(Though at the moment I am starting off light, focussing on good form. I have an occasional back complaint I dont want to irritate, plus it seems sensible to start slowly after 8 years with no weight training except bodyweight)

Have to admit going to the gym just once a week will make scheduling it (and the subsequent rest days) much easier. I'd rather do that, tho I am concerned that I will have somewhat pre-exhausted myself with squat and so not really be able to give deadlift a hard workout. Or maybe I could alternate them, ie do squat then deadlift one week, and deadlift then squat the next week?

Or am I wrong? Would doing them both in one workout be fine? Working out heavy just once a week, to allow plenty of recovery time, sounds very sensible to me.

Regarding stretching, I am basically doing front split (both legs), side split and seated touch-your-toes PNF after the workout. I also stretch out my quads, glutes, calves and psoas with passive stretches, and I try to stretch out my erector spinae tho I find it this difficult because I find I can reach a maximal position relatively easily (with good form, I promise, I am religious about good form in all my exercises).

Thanks again for the input :Angel: , already I feel like I am developing a much more sensible program than the one I described in my first post! Looking forward to doing it consistently to realise my flexibility goals.

[bushidoka]

You should have 2-3 exercises per muscle group per work-out anyway. It is good to mix up your work out often, as your body adapts to a routine very quickly, and what works this week will not work for you 5 or 6 weeks from now.
Keep your back straight during these exercises, and your head up. Pick a spot on the wall and keep your eyes glued to it. pull the weight, do not jerk it. Shrug the weight back at the top so you are standing erect. Warm-up well before and cool down after. Keeping the lower back warm will help also, though I frown on the use of weight belts.

[tankboy]

Thank you!!

Thanks also for the pointers on form, I promise I will stick to them religiously (back injuries really teach you the value of good form :) )

I will go with squat and deadlift in one workout for a while, and think about changing things in a month or two, as improvements start to tail off.

Right, that is the thinking part of it sorted (for now anyway), now its time to get in the gym and convert brainpower into muscle power!

Thanks again for the thoughts flaming and bushidoka, without you I would have been overtrained for weeks before I figured out something was amiss!

I'll post again sometime and let you know how it is going.

[bushidoka]

Right-on Tank. Make sure you keep a lifting journal so you can see your progress.

[tankboy]

Hi guys,

its been a month so i thought i would just let you know how it is going.

The answer is, it is going great. I started very light (just with the bar!) then added 2.5 - 5kgs per workout, easing my body in and listening for any signs of strain esp in my back, while also practicing perfect technique. I soon realised training this light i could train 3 times per week, and I really quickly began to feel the difference - i felt agile and limber again! I no longer feel like a bundle of crochety aches!

what a difference! weight training rules!

A month in I am up to a 50kg squat and 40kg deadlift, still building up to heavy (5reps) but feeling really good about my progress. Have been working upper body in the same workout, bench and chins (with occasional variations like dips and cable rows) already down to 5 reps so keeping the emphasis on strength. Only doing one set of max effort (after the gradual warm up sets), this seems to be working so i will add more sets if and when i need to to continue making progress.

Also plugging away at Kurtz's program, Isometrics at the end of my strength workouts. Seem to be getting stronger there too, and again my hamstrings feel good, not all stiff and crappy, so success there too!

Paying attention to diet too, got into a good routine of protein shakes (which is something I neglected when i weight-trained before).

So my weekly routine is now weights 3 times a week, with rest or capoeira on the days in between. In other words, my exercise routine has been completely changed around - and my body feels so much better for it!

Thanks again for your input, Will post again in another month or so to let you know how progress is continuing.