Triangle (Tiga)

[Dr. Heineken]

Selamat All,
This is a unique forum, in that it allows us to get such a broad spectrum of thoughts and ideas. As in the past, it quickly becomes a political debate, and there is no stopping that.
I thought this would be a great place to start a thread on platforms and how they are utilized within each camp. There are representatives from VDT, Cimande Pusaka, Guru Plinck, and Pak Tristan cimande...
We can start with the tiga, which is typically where we all begin. Assuming you've gone through lurus and sudit miring already.
I would like to know how each camp addresses tiga and some basics on strategy and application. Open hand only. Weapon work is for another discussion.

1. Solo practice: shoulder line, balance
2. Male tiga: offense
3. Female tiga: defense
4. Position in relation to your opponent
5. Multiple attackers?

There is too much to go into, but I thought it would be neat to get some different perspectives out there and see what's goin on.
The politics will begin very soon, so with that in mind, try to keep it..."we do it this way beacuse..." and "...it works for us because..."
The, "where the terminolgy came from" topic is tired. Those who know, know. Tis not important. Information is the goal in mind here.

This is just for fun, all about sharing.

Hope to hear from you all soon!

Respectfully,
Christopher

[Steve Perry]

Selamat All,


1. Solo practice: shoulder line, balance
2. Male tiga: offense
3. Female tiga: defense
4. Position in relation to your opponent
5. Multiple attackers?

Respectfully,
Christopher

In our version of Sera, we start on the straight line for langkah. We parse our techniques into upper and lower body, djuru and langkah, though in practice, they are done together.

As I recall, I stayed on that platform until I had four djurus, and then was shown how to do the moves on the tiga. (Eventually, I added the square -- sliwa -- and sekurum -- cross(?), which is as far as I have gotten.)

On the tiga, we start with the first djuru, step with the left foot first, do turns and sweeps and besets up to as the number of techniques we know, then go back to the beginning, turn, and do them on the opposite side.

This changes before Djuru Ten.

Assuming that "female" and "male" mean the same as "open gate" and "closed gate," we first learned with the open gate facing the inside of the tiga, but switched to closed gate by Djuru Ten, to stay on the tiga.

We don't break the two positions into defensive or offensive, believing we can do both from either.

We practice standing on two points of the triangle and having somebody step in to the third point for either sapu or beset training, and we work on position all the time. As Guru Plinck says, our silat is like real estate. The three most important things are, "Location, location, and ... location."

None of us are good enough to worry much about multiple attackers yet, though we do work different angles on our attacks and throws to position ourselves to one side or the other, in case somebody has a friend and we don't want to put ourselves in front of him before we are properly prepared.

[Dr. Heineken]

Thanks for the post!

From what I remember from the VDT line, they too do the djurus on the tiga, in a langkah format. It is done for muscle memory and getting used to changing direction and focusing on setting the shoulder line.

Mas Steve, the Guru Plinck stance is very upright in comparison to the VDT line, and the Bukti Negara camps. Although the teaching methods and translations are different in the other camps, the rough core of Sera lies with each. Could you please give your perspective on why the upright posture could be more efficient? What are some of the advantages and disadvantages of an upright posture?

Thank you very much!

Christopher

[Orang Jawa]

Dr. Heineken]Selamat All,
This is a unique forum, in that it allows us to get such a broad spectrum of thoughts and ideas. As in the past, it quickly becomes a political debate, and there is no stopping that.
I thought this would be a great place to start a thread on platforms and how they are utilized within each camp. There are representatives from VDT, Cimande Pusaka, Guru Plinck, and Pak Tristan cimande...

Salam hormat Dr. Heineken,
Thanks but not thanks bro, Please don't associate what I write here with cimande nor that I'm an authority in Cimande. I'm just the average old grumpie guy who pretend knows alot, and master of none :rolleyes:
Old magazine tiga is monyet in juru and harimau in langkah. In langkah, tap with right, circular oen hand block with left, elbow with right, retrack or chamber right punch, transfer to the left, puch with the left, retrack/chamber left hand and transfer to the right hand. Something likethat. I missed the page to continue.
Tristan

[tellner]

None of us are good enough to worry much about multiple attackers yet, though we do work different angles on our attacks and throws

Oh, we're all good enough to worry about it. None of us is good enough to do much about it :rolleyes:

[Flipper]

Image removed - Freeform

[Steve Perry]

Thanks for the post!

From what I remember from the VDT line, they too do the djurus on the tiga, in a langkah format. It is done for muscle memory and getting used to changing direction and focusing on setting the shoulder line.

Mas Steve, the Guru Plinck stance is very upright in comparison to the VDT line, and the Bukti Negara camps. Although the teaching methods and translations are different in the other camps, the rough core of Sera lies with each. Could you please give your perspective on why the upright posture could be more efficient? What are some of the advantages and disadvantages of an upright posture?

Thank you very much!

Christopher

Christopher --

Actually, we start high because most of us aren't flexible or strong enough to get as low as we should. In theory, we are working our way down.

Our platforms lines tend to get longer as we study. My first tiga, which I made out of a piece of old carpet with taped lines on it, is much smaller than the one I use now.

That said, the neutral stance is useful because that is where one is apt to start in a self-defense scenario. In circle practice, we might start there, but we endeavor to drop low once we engage, to get our center of gravity lower than that of our opponent.

Our view is that our silat is only as good as our legs. Of late, we have been working very low stances, in order to deal with grapplers trying for a shoot and leg takedown.

[Fireshadow]

Greetings all,
I am new to forums, but have been practicing silat for some time now. I hope that I do not commit any forum sins, and if I do I ask your forgiveness in advance.
Anyhow, I will answer your questions to the best of my ability, from the perspective of what I know as a Bukti Negara instructor.
In the begining stages of using the tiga, the tiga acts as a guide for shoulder positioning for the stance. When the practitioner begins training on the tiga, the shoulder line is even with the point of the triangle. This is in contrast to the beginning of the BN training,which emphasizes a forward stance forstructure and to get the practitioner over fears of penetration towards the opponent. In short, the beginning is,the tiga provides us with a more upright stance. The tiga then provides angle for shoulder and foot movement for beset and sapu. The tiga also provides an appreciation of distance for foot and hand work. The BN does not refer to a male/female triangle, as offense and defense are simultaneous. In the beginning stages,the tiga dua is often used as a distancing tool for technique. As far as the tiga goes for multiple opponents, it can be used in a "set-up" technique for learning multiple opponents, but in the end it becomes a "dead horse" for live multiple opponents.

Dr. Heinekan was incorrect in saying that the Bukti Negara stance is forward. That was in the early years and in the beginning understanding and training. Many people left in those years and are stuck in these preconceived notions of Bukti Negara.

This is the begining stages of tiga for Bukti Negara.

Bart

[Dr. Heineken]

Selamat all,
Mr. Bart, I do not know anything about Bukti Negara. I hope I did not step on anybody's toes about the forward lean statement. I have seen one or two of the djurus performed by students who used to train with the Pendekar, and from Victor as well. AGAIN, I am just asked a question.
Male vs. Female: in the VDT line, that is how they were referred to, in terms on offense and defense. I am sure that this will be debated now from the current VDT members.
They both are offensive and defensive in nature, noone is arguing that I don't think. The way they are trained and the information that the teacher transfers tends to steer the student towards certain thought processes. :bang: Thanks to everyone here, we can discuss why certain things work and why they don't. :D

How is the tiga incorporated with pukulan?
How tiga footwork prepare you for entering on boxers or strikers?

After having worked out with a phenominal boxer and martial artist in general, not getting hit seems to be priority one!

How can tiga help you with dealing with not necessarily a bigger and stronger opponent, but one with incredible hand speed?

Is shoulder line relative to sapu/beset important when dealing with this person?

Thank You!

Christopher

[Fireshadow]

Christopher,
My toes are fine. I appreciate your courtesy. As far as male and female tigas, no designation is given in our camp, and I have never heard it used as a reference except for by "newcomers". As to why things don't work: If they don't work you're probably not doing them right [meant as partial joke and definitely not to irritate or agitate].
To answer some of your questions:
Tiga is incorporated with pukulan in many different ways. One example is the point of the triangle. The point of the triangle is an excellent place for you to strike. If you strike to your center point you can strike strong. The trick (or training or treat) is to bring your opponent into that environment. Then your lines are established, you are "setting" your opponent to the proper place and the sweep is right in front of you. Remember, that in the end the tiga follows your "live" shoulder line, you rarely follow the "dead" symbol on the floor. Darn langkah follows me wherever I go. I like to tell my students that first you follow the langkah, and then the langkah follows you.
As to how tiga prepares you for entering in on fast hand speed, their are several ways: Several training drills on the tiga build muscle tone allowing for speedier penetration, evasion, reaction, etc. The soft-shoulder angles practiced on the dead horse tiga make blocking easier by reducing the profile and lessening the distance of travel of the block. Tiga dua is an excellent tool for referencing distance of engagement.
As far as shoulder line relation to sapu/beset being important to dealing with this person, it definitely is. Shoulder line dictates where these sweeps occur. As the opponent attacks (or before) a shoulder line is established (we don't typically meet our opponent with shoulders squared to them.) At the very least this angle is established upon contact with the opponent. This gives us the soft-shoulder position I was talking about previously, and lets us penetrate quicker (or when the timing is right.) It also makes our blocking easier when the guy throws big number 2. It also establishes our preferred striking points, and establishes our angles for setting and sweeping. Establishing a shoulder line makes all of this stuff happen fast, so that you don't have to dance around a lot, too.
That is at least a couple things from BN. I hope it is helpful. Of course, it is all difficult without a reference.
Bart

[Dr. Heineken]

Selamat,

Mr. Bart wrote:
"...The point of the triangle is an excellent place for you to strike. If you strike to your center point you can strike strong."
I am confused. :confused: When squared up toe to toe with a boxer, I would assume that you are going to have a right lead or left lead, in terms of footwork. If this is the case, and I might be dead wrong; aren't your feet on two points of the triangle, and if so, isn't the third point out to your left or right of your opponent? What I mean is, your opponent is out in front of you nowhere near the third point of the triangle. I just want to understand what you are saying about bringing the opponent into the "sapu/beset area."
Pukulan as I understand it is the art of striking(In general). It has been my experience, although limited, that sapus and besets are very difficult to pull off in a full speed, or kicked up sparring session. The whole base, angle, leverage thing comes into play. EVERYONE KNOWS WHERE THOSE TERMS CAME FROM SO NO NEED TO VISIT THAT AGAIN. What I am trying to say is that setting up your opponent into being in an "area" is one thing, but having control of your center, and his, and touching something in order to apply leverage is another...
If you are throwing a one punch and hold, in terms of learning a technique, than we can apply all the cool concepts and sweeps till we are bored. Shoulder line, beautful off balancing maneuvers, bla bla would be easy.

I have a feeling that the answer to my comments are in the "soft shoulder line" concept you mentioned earlier. If you would please sir, elaborate on that so as to help me and the others understand?

It has been my experience that sapus and besets just sort of, show up. The way I learned the techniques we were very close to the opponent, albeit not always in the primo location. The distance training was not as indepth as it could have been. Nonetheless, entering, controlling and adjusting to pressure were all parts of learning the tiga. Does the BN train these ideas in sequence? Perhaps in different langkahs?

Thank you!

Christopher

[Fireshadow]

Christopher,
In combat, it shouldn't matter where your feet start from. I would say that in the beginning phases of a lot of silat styles people see the rigidity of the training. Things often are robotic and linear. This phase is important, the training develops the tools that you will use. Later on you've got to "smush" it all together and let it go. It becomes a way of moving, and not just a series of tecniques. The body and mind use what is necessary, shortcut everything possible, and activate. The training is important; and when I refer to training, I don't just mean attending seminars (they are great, but they can't replace continual contact with an instructor.) The beginning of the training is a "dead horse" like I have said. You stated, "If you are throwing one punch and hold, in terms of learning a tecnique, then we can apply all the cool concepts until we are bored." That is what I am referring to as "dead horse". It is the beginning. You've got to start somewhere.
Let me see if I can help you with a technique and maybe it will reveal some principle.
You will still probably have to start slow. Start in a comfortable stance with your feet fairly close together (for mobility), and your body slightly lowered (for speed, power, and muscle taughtness.) Think relaxed, comfortable, centered, ready to spring (controlled). For a point of reference (which I hate to do since I am trying to get you off the "dead horse") you will be standing at the point of a tiga. When your opponent comes into range and jabs, parry his fist, barely slip past it, and step down the line of the tiga on his jab side. When your front stance foot hits the floor, leave the tiga behind and recognize that you are in a penetrated, front stance. The penetration should help you stay away from the big cross that will probably be coming your way. Pop your shoulders and hips in (making a straight line with) his lead leg and very slightly tilt your shoulder that is facing the opponent down (the shoulder tilt isn't necessary but is taught, and helps a new person keep from leaning away.) Now think hard sapu and cut your opponents lead leg out. You can go shin to shin; shin to soft-tissue is rudimentary but very effective. Instep of foot to lower calf is great. Stay away from going malleolus to malleolus (the bumps on the lower ankle); it hurts. This understanding is more equivalent to a beginner on the sadut-mering, but at least it should give you something that is effective and that you can activate with a little practice. If you penetrate to deep you will have trouble getting jammed up with the sapu. You can and should throw in a punch underneath the jabbing arm for good measure. That's all I can write for now. I will try to get back with you later on the soft-shoulder stuff.
Bart

[Steve Perry]

Selamat,
When squared up toe to toe with a boxer, I would assume that you are going to have a right lead or left lead, in terms of footwork. If this is the case, and I might be dead wrong; aren't your feet on two points of the triangle, and if so, isn't the third point out to your left or right of your opponent? What I mean is, your opponent is out in front of you nowhere near the third point of the triangle. I just want to understand what you are saying about bringing the opponent into the "sapu/beset area."
Christopher

Christopher --

Since Bukti and Sera have roots in common, perhaps I can add a bit here:

We believe that going toe-to-toe with a boxer is a bad idea. Don't do it. You will be playing his game and chances are, he is better at it. If you find yourself there, move.

You can do a beset or sapu on a straight line, though you have to be in, and not toe-to-toe, and it won't be a classical or "show" takedown. Those are the idea if everything is perfect. In real-time, it seldom will be perfect.

On the tiga, when somebody comes in, or when you go in, you angle, either to the outside or inside so that you have the position you want. And yes, it is harder to do sweeps or drags at speed, but not impossible. Most of the time, the pukulan aspect of the art is to soften the attacker, off-balance him, and make the takedown easier. If he happens to fall over after you smack him a few times, so much the better.

Here's one situation: Punch comes, you step into it angled, hit him with your own punch and maybe an elbow, and while he is chewing on that, then you do the takedown. Which sweep you do depends on which foot he has forward and which foot you have forward. A full beset might not work if you are shallow, but there are shorter versions that can.

If you have the position, you can sweep anywhere along the line. What you connect with can be the ankle, shin, knee, thigh, etc. The base-angle-leverage thing will still apply.

Tiga works well for, say, a single, unarmed attacker. With three or four guys coming straight in, or a giant biker on angel dust, you might want to use another platform, so as not to put yourself into an awkward spot.

If you control the position, you have a much better chance to win.

[Dr. Heineken]

Selamat,
Thank you all for your posts so far, I think we have a good discussion going.
Let's take it a step further.
How does the setup for a sapu/beset differ on the male and female tigas?
How do you compensate for shoulder position with the third point to the side? To the Rear?
Do the base/angle/leverage combos have significance in terms of position? If so, are they applied in any specific order depending on where the third point is?

I know that there are a gagillion and one ways to do it, but I want to see if anyone has preferences when applying a technique.
For example: do you like to leverage opponents in order to achieve angle? Do you like to angle in first in order for your leverage to be a smaller motion? Do you use pukulan to help you gain angle or use striking as a leverage tool?

Thank you.

Christopher

[Fireshadow]

Christopher,
In Bukti Negara, tiga is tiga. This is martial science. The shoulder and sweep angles follow the understanding of tiga if you are using that environment. Tiga can be used on multiple attackers or big guys. You can easily go toe to toe with a boxer, you need to be able to move with your silat and not think I will stand here, my lines are here (don't take this to mean we dance around like a boxer.) Smacking them around a little bit is great, but it is best if you have done your jurus slowly and recognize the timing and angle of your strikes. Each strike has its timing and specific result. With a soft-shoulder line you can set angles with strikes and without having to grab them and anchor. Have you tried the technique I gave to you? Can you at least visually see how it is accomplished or do you need more explanation?
Here is something else to give a whirl. You need to have an understanding and a feel for you and your opponents range. Instead of letting your opponent establish when and how he will strike, you can take the offensive. Take the same stance as before, move around a very little bit. When range is correct (or if you like when he moves), simultaneously step down the same line as you did in the previous technique angle your shoulders parallel with your leg position and fire a guarded right-hand strike over the top of his jab or feint. Assuming your attacker is a boxer, has a left hand lead (and jab or feint) you could see it as stepping down the right side of the tiga (if you were standing on the point), and angling your shoulder so that your opponent is on your center. The guarding hand cuts off the angle of the jab (with little or no effort). The step and shoulder get you off the line of the jab. Turning so that your center is on the opponent give you maximum power (along with turning the shoulders). Your shoulder position now establishes where your tiga is (the point is right in front of you, you should have punched right to it.) This is an example of applying pukulan with the tiga and shoulder angulation. If you think you've got this I will add more. Just let me know.
If you don't mind me asking, what is your silat/MA background? I don't want to argue politics, I just want to know so that I can understand (or maybe not understand) what you are referencing from.

[Steve Perry]

Selamat,
Thank you all for your posts so far, I think we have a good discussion going.
Let's take it a step further.
How does the setup for a sapu/beset differ on the male and female tigas?
How do you compensate for shoulder position with the third point to the side? To the Rear?

Male, female, open, closed, all the same, at least vis a vis set-up. As we understand it, there are eight effective positions if you plan to use a sapu or beset against an attacker.

If the attacker steps in (or just leads, and you step in) with his right foot, you have four choices: 1) Step outside his foot with your right 2) Step outside his foot with your left foot; 3) & 4) step inside his foot with either of your feet. (Luar or dalam.)

What I mean when I say "open" or "closed" gates (male, female) is if you are angled on a tiga toward an attacker, the position of your leg closest to the opponent. If it is back, exposing your groin, it's an open gate; if it is forward, covering your groin, it is closed.

If he leads with the left foot, you have the same four choices.

One on one, guy coming in from the front, those are the relationships as we see them. You could get behind him, too, but then you do a different finish.

If you are toe-to-toe, you don't have a sweep or sapu unless you or he move in, you won't have the angle.

Which technique you do will depend on which foot your attacker has forward and which one you have forward, at least if you plan to do it efficiently. (If his right foot leads and my right foot leads, and I am outside his foot, probably I'll do a beset luar; if it is inside his foot, sapu dalam. Those would be the closest, quickest tools.) Other leads, other tools.

The angle of your attack and follow-up determines your shoulder position, whichever platform you use. We think of our upper bodies as one base, and our lower bodies as another base, and we don't move both at the same time. (Don't twist and step together.)

Do the base/angle/leverage combos have significance in terms of position? If so, are they applied in any specific order depending on where the third point is?

Everything is related to position, and which order you apply them in will depend on your relationship and stance. There are lots of theoretical things you could do.

I know that there are a gagillion and one ways to do it, but I want to see if anyone has preferences when applying a technique. For example: do you like to leverage opponents in order to achieve angle? Do you like to angle in first in order for your leverage to be a smaller motion? Do you use pukulan to help you gain angle or use striking as a leverage tool?


And it depends. We try not to have a favorite technique, because the opportunity to do it might not arise. Better to go with the flow. Position and sensitivity, distance, timing, all are more important than any particular tool.

[Dr. Heineken]

Selamat,
Pentjak Silat Rante U.S.A. - 2 yrs
Pentjak Silat Sera - Serak (VDT) - 5 yrs
Pentjak Silat Serbatik

Just askin questions.

I can visualize the techniques ou have described and have done similar things.
I am just trying to see them broken down to the bare bones and tools being used. Work it to death would be the idea!

Thank You.
Christopher

[Fireshadow]

Christopher,
Okay, if you can visualize where I am talking about on the last tecnique and you have just done a pre-emptive strike over the top of the jab, we are in pretty good shape. Your opponent is on your center, and your shoulders are not parallel with his. If your shoulders were parallel your block would have been much more difficult because there would be nowhere easy to dissipate his force and you would have had a large profile. Hopefully, that makes sense. This is what I am talking about with a soft-shoulder position. One of the other advantages you have is that you can set angles for sweep, which if the shoulders were parallel would be much more difficult. Make sure in the position you are in that you have weight evenly distributed between your two feet and just slightly on your toes (think slip a piece of paper under your heel), which will help you track your opponent if he tries to retreat. I see a lot of people from the BN related arts who are flat-footed. It isn't so, it is just so close, it looks like it. Am I correct in making this supposition that this could be something you are doing and you have trouble tracking your opponent and activating kicks and sweeps? Make sure you are centered in your stances and not leaning backward, forward, or side to side. From here we will look at two common situations (from the infinite).
Situation 1: Your opponent gets off a cross, whether or not you have or have not hit him. Your guarding hand should be in a great position to cut inside and down across his cross punch. Thwack his bicep with your forearm blade. This is made easier since you have positioned yourself in such a manner so that he has to cross his own body to strike you and your dive block is basically right in front of you (on your center) and easy to see because of your soft-shoulder positioning. Let the punch come to you and don't reach for it. Sang sot to his opposite right floating rib, let it skip off, hook under his right arm, switch feet, and shoulder throw. The foot change should keep you close to your opponent and your right elbow should keep pressure on his body (slightly). Make sure you coil him up good so your shoulder throw is easy. You shouldn't have to dip your shoulder on the throw, just face the opposite direction and stay in your center. This whole sequence should activate (easy thought process) effortlessly if you have done the training. Follow up.
Situation 2: You get a great shot off and strike him in the mandible. If he doesn't drop like a sack of potatoes, use the little bit of space that you have created with your strike and drop your fist straight down using your knuckles to rake. This should help hold your opponent into his position so he can't retreat. Do you recognize where this comes from? If the opponent lets fly with his cross, you are back to situation 1. If the opponent leans backwards and tries to knee or kick your raking hand should be able to catch the knee or kick (do you have any type of kick catching drill, often done with sempok?). If the opponent is anchored down well, slap down open palm on with your guarding (left) hand onto your opponent left shoulder, and step (slight depok) to a beset luar position behind opponents left leg. Recycle your right hand to a good position to strike, guard vs. his left hand (which you should be able to rip out of the way when you drag), or cup behind the opponents head. Simultaneously fold your left elbow into a strike and sweep on the tiga with a full beset. Hopefully, this makes sense. If it does, do you recognize your training? If not, please ask questions. Do you see how the tiga has followed you and you are just standing on it in the end?
Bart

[Fireshadow]

Christopher,
You are right in saying "work it to death would be the idea". To this I say, work your training to death it should let you react spontaneously if you have the proper instruction and are given the keys. If you work the tecnique to death, it is good but you still just have a technique.
And I hope that my tone does not come off that I am "typing (talking) down to you". I am used to teaching, coaching, and informing and so that is what I do. I'm new to forums in general (other than watching), so please let me know if I am coming off incorrectly.
I appreciate the respect that you have shown to me and the intelligent questions you have asked.
Bart

[Tuankaki]

Bart,
I for one, appreciate the thoughtful responses you have presented to Christopher. These forums are a difficult medium for exchange of principles of badan fisika, and I really appreciate your efforts to add value to this forum without regard to politics.

As for me, what you describe from "situation 2" approximates Serak djuru 12 with the right arm, followed by djuru 11 with the left. Or the 12-like motion "coming from" Setia-Hati, if that addresses your educational question.

I am very interested in the upper vs. lower art tiga understanding and interaction. Thanks for sharing.

[Dr. Heineken]

Selamat,
I am able to follow both of those scenarios; thank you for giving an indepth response!
It looks like Djuru 12, as TuanKaki said. The shoulder throw looks like "sambut 8"(VDT). The use of tiga is of upmost importance in terms of off-balancing the guy, and then the sempok to set your base.

Don't worry about talking down to me or worrying about tone on this medium. You have made it clear that you are willing to share information and seem to be quite knowledgeable as well. Thank you.

The badan fisika and "put your foot here and not there" is all very hard to get a hold of. i hope that for all of the people who have read these posts are learning something, or at least questioning the validity of the information. Trying to disprove something opens a lot of doors as well. Acknowledge what it is, why it works, or doesn't work. and understand what is being transferred.

Does anyone else have any questions or ideas that we can explore?

Thank You.

Christopher

[Fireshadow]

Tuankaki,
Actually I stepped into the politics thing right when I came on this forum. I saw it and I walked right into it and..... (sniff, sniff) it is still on my shoe. Poor judgement on my part (not because I am wrong, just because I have no good way to prove it.) At any rate I will try to stay out of the politics and just try to help people with their silat.
I am not familiar with the term "badan fisikah", could you please give me a translation?
As far as the upper and lower arts, they work interdependantly. I would say they are not totally independant of each other. However you do always have a tiga with your shoulder line as the base in which ever direction you face with the upper body and the feet also always have a tiga dua on either side from wherever they are lined up. Sometimes these tigas are not easy to activate due to positioning of opponent, etc. That's why we have other langkahs in BN, so you can switch and activate (or just activate, switching is a process.) In my understanding, any time that you are sweeping their is a shoulder position that is relevant (thus the legs can't be totally independent). In beginning BN, it is typical that everything is very robotic, so that it is easier to learn. The robotic nature of the beginning phases also lets us learn were our shoulders are (all sweeps are relevant to shoulder lines?) as do jurus, training on the langkahs, and various drills. Also in the beginning, the techiques are typically very linear (in more than one sense) and the upper dimension is busy with grabbing and holding to make the anchors for sweeps occur. Grabbing and holding is not bad, but it isn't necessary as the strikes, blocks, jerks, etc. should "set" the person for a swift sweep. That way we avoid wrestling around, and we can wack the other person (even during the sweep) with both hands, elbows. Again, this is a function of training and not easily acquired by just learning techniques. However, since we can not train over the internet, I will refer back to situation #2. If you are referencing your tiga at the point you are raking down the body, you will notice that we stepped in for a full beset. This is not necessary and takes a while (although it is effective and works and our safeties are in place). We did not grab anything as the rake was our "set". From here let's look at a few more options and I will try to incorporate independent upper and lower dimension (I still like to refer to it as interdepedent.)
Option 1
After the rake (or kinda during), launch your guarding hand at your opponent if he is well "set". You should be able to knock him flat (like shooting tin cans off a fence).
Option 2
At the time of the rake, shoot your left foot (depok) behind your opponents left calf for a beset luar. Your range must be correct and if it is, you shouldn't have to step just put insert your foot behind your opponents calf. Your rake is still in place so you should be able to sweep your opponent parallel to your shoulder line and as the foot is sweeping the hands, elbows should be able to cut loose independently. This can be difficult as a technique.
Option 3
Same as option 2, only be adjusted and insert a beset dalem with your right foot.

Your training should provide you with strikes, safeties, multiple back-up plans, etc. Training should instill a way of moving. Thanks.
Bart

[Fireshadow]

Christopher,
Excellent. Sempok is awesome and effective, but with balance and training there are faster foot changes. Do you have anything that I could be talking about? I'm not sure.
This stuff should be very hard to disprove. If it's not there you can't take it, if it is you can. It is a math equation. The important part is the =. If distancing is wrong, or something else you must either change yourself (or preferably) change your opponent, so that you can create another equation.
Bart

[Steve Perry]

Tuankaki,
Actually I stepped into the politics thing right when I came on this forum. I saw it and I walked right into it and..... (sniff, sniff) it is still on my shoe. Poor judgement on my part (not because I am wrong, just because I have no good way to prove it.) At any rate I will try to stay out of the politics and just try to help people with their silat.

Stayed tuned for a public service announcement:

Um, no, you tracked the politics in with you -- the suggestion you offered -- that the students under Guru Plinck should call our art something else, well, that isn't really a way to help folks with their silat, now is it?

If you saw it and you walked right into it, you can't complain. If you tracked it in on the rug yourself, you really can't complain.

And you are right -- you have no way to prove that assertation, good or otherwise. Oh, I could prove it, but, you know, I took an oath not to say anything.

Convenient, that.

Why am I harping on it? Because you don't get a free pass with sucker punches. If you wanted to leave "politics" out of it, then comments like the one you made above ought to be left at the door with your shoes.

Back to your regularly scheduled programming ...

[Tuankaki]

Tuankaki,
<snip> At any rate I will try to stay out of the politics and just try to help people with their silat. Good call.
I am not familiar with the term "badan fisikah", could you please give me a translation? Translates as "Body Physics", which is where the platforms really shine for me. Although Christopher's initial question had to do with longer range issues, which might not as easily be described as body physics problems.
Option 2
At the time of the rake, shoot your left foot (depok) behind your opponents left calf for a beset luar. Your range must be correct and if it is, you shouldn't have to step just put insert your foot behind your opponents calf. Your rake is still in place so you should be able to sweep your opponent parallel to your shoulder line and as the foot is sweeping the hands, elbows should be able to cut loose independently. This can be difficult as a technique.
Option 3
Same as option 2, only be adjusted and insert a beset dalem with your right foot.

<snip> Thanks.
BartIf I'm picturing the scenario accurately, my first move already places my R foot very near his lead L foot. and if I'm close enough to be inside the power of the cross, and to do a downward rake, then I'd probably see it this way...

The rake will compress him at least a little, bringing the head down. I will be in a lower sikap as a result too. My inclination would be not to take a L foot step at all (too slow and possibly risky, depending on the efficacy of the pressure from the rake) but to adjust my R foot behind his L foot/calf, and drag my rear foot so as to stay hip-to-hip. From there, depending on distancing, if I was deep enough I'd maybe go into kinjit modality, if not, I'd explode upward with a R hand backfist (really a forearm smash) with simultaneous sapu luar, a motion that is trained quite a bit within the upper jurus in a magazine I read, and which is formally performed most commonly in Jurusan Sepak. If I was really lucky, I'd execute the sweep with my knee (well, quadriceps) up under his buttocks so as to shock and destroy his lumbar stabilty, and also to minimize the possibility of his stepping out. The sweep would be along the line of my tiga, and the Rightward torquing of my torso concurrent with the forearm/backfist, will have brought my shoulders in proper alignment with the sweep. Kind of like a full-body gunting. Then of course, stomping out of the sapu on whatever is left down there.

Sounds good on paper anyway! Thanks for the discussion.

[tellner]

Tuankaki,
Actually I stepped into the politics thing right when I came on this forum. I saw it and I walked right into it and..... (sniff, sniff) it is still on my shoe. Poor judgement on my part (not because I am wrong, just because I have no good way to prove it.) At any rate I will try to stay out of the politics and just try to help people with their silat.

Stepped in it? No. You carried it in and started slinging it. Then you said "It's someone else's mess. I'm just here to spread the Word to the benighted masses." It doesn't work that way. When you show up and immediately start in on people, insulting their teacher and making some pretty serious - not to mention incredibly arrogant - accusations you can't really expect the targets of your attacks to sit there and passively take it on your unsupported and often incorrect word.

It would also be a pretty poor advertisement for Pendekar de Thouars if the things you were saying were actually true. Really good martial artists - Cliff Stewart good, Steve Plinck good, Dan freakin' Inosanto good - could spend decades working at this with the Pendekar and not learn the important stuff. He would have to be a pretty poor teacher indeed. Fortunately, it's not true. He's an incredible instructor. They learned an awful lot from him. This is all about other things like politics, personalities, control and character assassination.

[Gajah Silat]

Doc Heineken.
The politics will begin very soon, so with that in mind, try to keep it..."we do it this way beacuse..." and "...it works for us because..."

Ya Tuhan :rolleyes: ,

Guys, this was supposed to be a non-political thread :bang:

I have no experience of American Silat, but in our style it is like this....

Segi Tiga is the first of 7 langkahs. It is the basis!

We do it high, we do it low, we do it middle, we do it left & right , inside and out.

We also use it to avoid stepping in the 'mess' :D

Otherwise, a triangle is the only shape that will always seek stability and this is the basis.

Oh, and we also use segi tiga for serangan belati. By this I mean we attack with the knife in a triangular form and combine this with triangular footwork. Kinda double triangle!

[realitychecker]

Hello,

First I would like to ask how the Tiga Dua is used. Are sambuts practiced with opponents starting at opposite points of the Tiga's? Are we then talking about 'size-specific lines in those Tiga's? Are the Tiga's always back to back, or are they ever hour glass shaped (point to point)?

I was wondering if the 'size specific' thing was relevant to Di Vinci's research in human physiology.

Do any of you practice any good counter for counter drills/patterns empty handed? If so, please explain. The guys I train with and I have been working a few different drills lately where we gradually escalate the speed and intensity, and it always ends up counter for counter-then sparring, then a 'victory' (or defeat, if you look at it that way. I look at it as "passing through knowledge to get to understanding ;) ). Unless your sparring partner tears some important ligaments in your knee...

What are some de Thouars Silat (PC :Angel: )- specific drills, or 'alive training? Done on platforms?

I would also like some opinions on training frequency. I would please like to get honest replys about how folks 'solo train'. How many minutes/hours a day?per week? What is the primary emphisis?jurus?lankas? What motivates you?
I appreciate the advice!!!
Take care all!
JR

[realitychecker]

A couple more questions to my last questions on "solo training".

Music, or silence? If music, rock and roll? drum beats? symphony? Yanni :eek: ? Do you have a 'special' place you like to train?
I like to train where ever I am at the moment I feel like I need to train, but when I set aside time I go into my basement. Yourselves?
Thanks again!
TC,
JR

[Gajah Silat]

Woah Man, I'd love a basement :eek:

To be honest, solo training can seem quite...er unrewarding, as much of our stuff is sambut based. So I try to either visualise, or use my garden punchbag! Otherwise the only way to ingrain stuff is by repetition.

However, does anyone else find that langkahs can take over in the most mundane of times?

For instance, in my job, I work between two areas and sometimes find myself sometimes unconciously langkah-ing between them :confused:

This combined with constantly bruised forearms in varying shades of brown to green, has led my colleagues to believe I'm an utter fruitcake :D

Oh and RC, I actually purposefuly try not to over-intellectualise stuff.

If you were in Asia, you would rarely get a lengthy explanation on body mechanics. Rather, do it like this....a million times...and that's how you understand :confused:

[tellner]

Solo training is very important, but there are limits to what you can learn from it. For combative timing or sensitivity, just to name two, you need other people, preferably many different sizes and shapes. In the three-legged race between knowledge, ability and understanding you need different mixes of single-person drills, partner drills and sparring of one sort or another. How much at any particular time? That's what you have a teacher for.

Doing things while standing on the platforms has its place. If you are going to really use those angles and reference points they need to be deeply ingrained alone and with a partner or opponent. That way you'll always know where you are and what you can do no matter where you find yourself. You'll know where you or someone else is weak or strong, range, and possible appropriate tools. But it's a mistake to spend too much time obsessing about them. If you spend too much time on "He's at point A of triangle 1. I'm at point Q of triangle 4. So I need to move to point K of square 6 to set up for a throw," you passed the point of diminishing returns a couple exits back. If they're a solid reference you're good. If they become an elaborate end in themselves you've gone too far.

Music? It depends. Sometimes it's a distraction. Other times it can be very useful. Music can alter the energy level of the class and invoke different moods. At the early stages it keeps students in good time. Of course, more advanced practitioners can learn to work around the beat the way that a good musician does. I will say this, when our teacher decided we were ready to go deeper into distance and timing I was floundering. We noticed that a drum store (Rhythm Traders (http://www.africanrhythmtraders.com/)) had moved into the area and offered African and Conga drumming classes. Learning it was a lot of fun and helped our Silat immensely. A lot of martial artists talk about "broken rhythm". For this ethnically rhythm-challenged White American it made no sense at all until I had some grasp of rhythm at all.

[Gajah Silat]

"He's at point A of triangle 1. I'm at point Q of triangle 4. So I need to move to point K of square 6 to set up for a throw," LOL :D

This was kinda my point. Surely the object is to ingrain movements to the extent of instinct. Bypass the critical factor & imprint it in your 'lizard brain'.

Oh and before anyone envisages me shimmying around the hospital in long low langkahs...er that's not quite what I meant :D :rolleyes: Morelike turning 180 sort of happens automatically ;) Anyone else's langkahs taken control of their legs?

[Orang Jawa]

Hello all....
I was going to keep my mouth shut but I can't....
Holly Mackerel! Lets take a deep breath.... concentrated on the topic, I think is Tiga, right?
Hey now!
I'm not going to touch on the tiga principles or applications. I'm going to tell everyone about silat techniques in general.
Either in jurus/langkah/sambut or solo training, we must pay attention to this:

LEADING SIDE VS REAR SIDE
The leading side yields an open position. The open is good for attack with both hands and both feet, but provides a greater target for counter attack.
Rear side yields a closed position. The close stance allows limited attack but guard the centerline.

ECONOMY OF MOTION
We must always strive to do the least both is energy and movement, but yet accomplish the most. To block and to counterattack with the same action is better than blocking, then counter attacking. The study of silat is a life-long progress of economy of motion or using its body to its best advantages.

HYPEREXTENSION
Contributes power and reach to the techniques. On each technique, we must strive for maximum reach and power. This is only found through continued practice

INDEPENDENT MOVEMENT
The arms and legs are fast and deceptive, but not as powerful as the hips, which are slow. The objective of the techniques is to make contact with the target. Deception and explosiveness are the two key elements for a successful technique. The independent movement of the arms and legs separate from the movement of the body contributes to the explosiveness of the technique. And arm can be extended before the opponent can react. With arm dragging the body rather that the body pushing the arm, explosiveness and deception are complimented.

MOBILITY VS IMMOBILITY
Footwork and movement are important for deceptiveness. 90% of footwork is ad lib. You can counter shuffle, etc. You try to move against your opponent as you would move against a snake. Get as close as you can without being bitten. You try to evoke a response.
Your movements are external, not internal
Body movements are of four elements:
1. Dipping
2. Twisting
3. Shoulder roll
4. Footwork-step, shuffle, creep, bounce, and jump.

LEADING CENTER
The way one direct his body, e.g., one can lead with his nose, shoulders, head, etc. The way a person sets his body often reveals what techniques the fighter will throw. A shoulder position can conceal the leading center.

DEFENSIVE MOVEMENT PATTERNS
Zig zag, move in and out, change postures, etc. if a path is blocked by the use of the opponent's feet or hands, changes directions. As in football, the quarterback throws where the defenders are not present.

SETUPS
Make the opponent think you are in certain way when you are really not, e.g. you throw several short back fists to make the opppnents your arem is short, then hit with an extended move.
Finally understanding the functions of the body. Extension for the attacking, blocking, faking, etc.
Now I'm going to drink my coffee :)
Tristan

[Fireshadow]

Tuankaki,
Thanks for the translation. As far as your option goes, it works for me. I would say that if you are going to kinjit make sure you move him to your shoulder line (if you weren't already doing it.) It is much safer than conforming to your opponent. Also, keep in mind (if you haven't already) that most boxers have more of an open stance, so this could make some difference to how you visualize your techniques. What you said sounds good to me.
As you mentioned, the L foot step can be dangerous and difficult, but we must always push ourselves to do the more difficult stuff while training. We might need it, it opens up options, and it also enhances our balance for the "easy" stuff. I am always amazed when I see PDT do a technique (with ease) that I find difficult. It inspires me to be "just like that guy, when I get that age." Again, I think the stuff you are saying works great, and you got to go with what you can activate in combat. I find that I can't always activate the stuff (principle, etc.) I am working hard on at the time. I tend to fall back on the stuff I've got.
Bart

[Tuankaki]

Tuankaki,
I would say that if you are going to kinjit make sure you move him to your shoulder line (if you weren't already doing it.) It is much safer than conforming to your opponent. <snip> I tend to fall back on the stuff I've got.
BartAgreed on the kinjit. Trying a kinjit with open hips and shoulders is begging to be thrown. I would probably turn into the kinjit while grabbing the head, (back to jalan juru-juru 9 or 12 lurus) so the kinjit becomes a compressive breakdown as opposed to a throw, per se. To relieve the compression for whatever reason, I can always beset to the tiga point, and drop or not into juru 17 modality. I don't like to kinjit someone to my back and have to turn around as I've seen elsewhere - UNLESS there's another environmental factor, such as another Bad Guy to my left.

I tend to fall back on the stuff I've got too -- it hurts! But hey, everything works on the internet!

[Fireshadow]

RealityChecker,
As far as personally training on the tiga (possibly for juru work), the tiga should be size-specific for BN. Two and a half of your own bare feet is our own measurment. PDT calls these your battle lines and stepping longer can really mess with your balance. I believe you can reference BN juru 2; even when you do this juru don't go outside the lines with your feet. Many people do because they can't make the horse stance for juru 2. I was told by my instuctors (Tim A., Dan H., and PDT) that if this is the case your horse stance isn't good enough (its all better now). The body has specific proportions, so training on your size specific langkah helps tremendously.
As far as training in a class setting, in BN, we make the langkah about 24 inches which is pretty good for adults as a reference.
For a tiga dua training exercise, we have been setting the tiga dua up and feeding each other off of it. You will notice that if you stand on a point and your opponent stands on a point you are in striking range if your opponent steps to the center (your hackles should be raised). If 10 is as hard or fast as an opponent can feed at you have your opponent try to feed at you with a smooth 2, 3, or 4. Clear your mind, and when he feeds try to spring into action with your hands. Let whatever happens, happen. Later on you can add other feeds, having your opponent step down the lines, etc. I would recommend just using it as an entry/activation drill to begin with and then later on going to sweeps (take your time, because if you can't get the blocks and hits what is the use practicing sweeps?). You should work to be smooth and to get an "ahhhh" feeling instead of a pitty pat. You can also do a lot of other drills and of course generic techniques. This is a great place to start though.
As far as point to point triangle, remember the Pendekar saying "Langkahs go from here to your house." Does that answer your question.
For counter for counter, we use sambutan and it is sometimes difficult to keep from speeding up. This can be a great way to do the drill though. If you want to keep the drill going you have to work with your partner and sometimes slow down (get the competition out of your head.) Punctuating with hits sometimes can be used to slow things down, too.
A great "alive" training drill is to think "what if". What if I walk around the corner and someone attacks me? What if while I am waiting in line at the bank these people try to jump me? What if I my girlfriend/wife takes that knife and tries to cut me (this may sound silly but as a firefighter/paramedic I have seen an equal number of fatal stabbings recieved from girls/wives as I have that other guy.)? At any rate you are trying to learn to "turn on the switch". Don't get paranoid with it, the training should be relaxed. Think of how this combines with the tiga dua drill.
As far as training frequency goes, I am fortunate to be able to train almost daily. Usually jurus and stuff on the "light" days (approximately 20 to 30 minutes). 2-3 hours with my instuctor per week. 7 hours teaching class per week. 1-4 hours of teaching private lessons per week. Weekend seminars or Cali training sessions as they come.
Bart

[Fireshadow]

Gajah Silat,
Right on with the langkah stuff man. When I was waiting for my wife the other day I found a sliwa in the carpet pattern that was just my size. I couldn't resist. I also couldn't agree with you more than on over-intellectualization. We spend 2/3 to 3/4 of our classes on drilling and the techniques always relate back to the drills. I am trying to get people to relate the technique back to the training that they have. Unfortunately, that is all I am able to do as the training drills are hard to work on the internet. The drills and training make it stick together.
Bart

[Fireshadow]

Tuankaki,
Excellent. Keep in mind what I said about moving your opponent to kinjit. Can you think of jurus to do it with in a small motion?
As far as kinjit to your back, instead as soon as the person starts to fall, drop your kinjit arm to track across his body and retreat with your forward leg (the one you used for the kinjit seiko). With a little practice and sensitivity you can keep him on your shoulder line and you end up standing next to his torso or head. A lot of times you will also catch the arm when you track or, at least, you can get a nice strike in.
Bart

[tellner]

Another thing to consider, as Bart may be getting ready to do, is the length of the platform.

The size isn't some magical fixed number that The Flying Spaghetti Monster drew on the ground with His Noodly Appendage. It tells you where you are and what human anatomy will allow you to do easily from where you are. If your feet are close, the platform is shorter. When they are farther apart you are lower, and it is longer. The lower you are the greater the range of your steps and sweeps, assuming your leg strength and flexibility are up to the task. As these improve you will be able to fight effectively from a lower position when that is what the situation calls for.

As the level changes so do some things about your stance and body mechanics. When your feet are farther apart the hips "uncork" somewhat, and it's harder to be single-weighted.

In the beginning it's a good idea for students to practice on a platform defined by a normal walking step. It's an anatomical measurement they're familiar with. Most of them can maintain good structure and keep mobile. But a particular size platform for everyone? Not necessarily a good idea. My wife is 5'3". Steve Perry is probably a foot taller. A 24" platform is short for him, more of a stretch for her. They can fight on an arbitrary-sized platform after internalizing their motion on ones defined by their individual anatomy.

[Tuankaki]

Tuankaki,
Excellent. Keep in mind what I said about moving your opponent to kinjit. Can you think of jurus to do it with in a small motion?
14 works pretty good. NOTE: You know, I'm editing this, because that's a beginner's answer. It's in djuru 1. That's why the exchange structure, and the bringing to "home". 14 could be viewed as a reinforced application of that, and 5 could be seen as a compressive punctuation of it, but it's in the basic tenants of the way we move. Juru 1. My final answer!


As far as kinjit to your back, instead as soon as the person starts to fall, drop your kinjit arm to track across his body and retreat with your forward leg (the one you used for the kinjit seiko). With a little practice and sensitivity you can keep him on your shoulder line and you end up standing next to his torso or head. A lot of times you will also catch the arm when you track or, at least, you can get a nice strike in.
BartIndeed, that's the way I saw it in the video store, hooking his arm on the way down, retreating leg dropping to one knee, and finishing with a cunchi. What I am suggesting with the beset, is that this accomplishes the same thing with the added flavor of a line change with the retreating leg. By doing it this way, you have an opportunity for neck compression with the beset leg, and you're still behind his guns but your torso has rotated back to 9:00 so as not to have your centerline as open or to get kicked in the head by an angry falling person. In fact, can you visualize how it is now possible to integrate a tarik kepala by changing lines in this way? I believe you also gain the advantage of being able to remain standing, instead of having to drop to the knee of the retreating leg to stay close. Finally, I wanted to throw it in as another possible application of the tiga, the topic of the thread.

As for dropping the arm, if I wasn't going to grab the head, I might instead want to be aware of djuru 7, to prevent the angry falling person from grabbing my head on his way down. I hear that only happens in seminars but I'm not taking any chances. At least on the internet. Fun chat, thanks.

[realitychecker]

Thank you very much, everyone. Thanks to Crispy for starting this thread too!

Fireshadow, when you stated;
As far as personally training on the tiga (possibly for juru work), the tiga should be size-specific for BN. Two and a half of your own bare feet is our own measurment. PDT calls these your battle lines and stepping longer can really mess with your balance. I believe you can reference BN juru 2; even when you do this juru don't go outside the lines with your feet. Many people do because they can't make the horse stance for juru 2. I was told by my instuctors (Tim A., Dan H., and PDT) that if this is the case your horse stance isn't good enough (its all better now). The body has specific proportions, so training on your size specific langkah helps tremendously.

I do understand a bit about BN juru 2, but can you please elaborate a little more on this one? Does turning the rear foot to 'open' constitue going outside the distance of your lanka?

I also totaly agree with Gahja, Tuankaki, and Fireshadow on the point of the 'lanka' being everywhere. They are on my kitchen floor, in supermarkets, on my jobsites in the mud too. It's funny to be caught 'in the moment' in a shopping mall by someone witnessing you 'researching' sapu, in detail, outside of a JC Penny's! :o
Thank you Tristan and Todd to for your contributions! Points well taken!
Please keep it rolling!
Thanks,
JR

[realitychecker]

As far as point to point triangle, remember the Pendekar saying "Langkahs go from here to your house." Does that answer your question.

10-4

[Tuankaki]

Djoeroes are me. Langkahs are my world, and you are in it! :D

[Dr. Heineken]

Selamat,
I am glad to see that we have lots of people involved in this one. There are a few missing from the discussion that I wish would chime in. Maybe in time... :D
I have seen a few different expressions of the same "style" and there are some camps that square there shoulders diligently in solo training, and there are those that move smoothly through those changes. I am sure that they acknowledge the lines, but do not "set" to them. I am wondering how this affects the students sensitivity.(?)
I can relate it to piano. If I was classically trained, I would be robotic and on the beats at first, later to develop my own expression as I understand the music.
If I learned mimicing a jazz pianist, I would be all over the shop, and would be difficult staying within perameters per se. Not that I could not make beautiful music, but would be a little challenging to break down and explain how I got there.

Is there anyone that prefers one method of training to the other?

When you have gotten a feel for the tiga, you do not need to reference it like a map anymore, it seems to be in your muscle memory.

Thanks to all who have posted here.

A few more days of Q&A and then let's see if we can start another thread that is a productive as this one!!

Christopher

[Gajah Silat]

Doc,

Good analagy.

As a musician myself, I play by ear. I have also played with many classicaly trained musos. Although they are very technicaly proficient they usualy found it hard to 'jam' once the sheetmusic was taken away! Then again I have met many musos with no formal training who have been exceptional.

Wether this totaly relates to langkah I don't realy know, as I have only experienced one side of the equation.

We do not train on any diagrams. All our langkah are pretty much imagined to start with & after time & repetition you don't need to think about shapes.

I also wonder about this. As you go lower the lines must surely lengthen, so how is this accomodated on a diagram?

I don't want to start a diagram/ non-diagram arguement but I'm just curious :confused:

[tellner]

As an indifferent musician I've got to say that jazz is great. Free jazz can be really good. But if you don't have the musical skills, which only come from boring, faithful tedious practice of the basics - scales, chords, runs - with plenty of time using a metronome your music will never be anything near as good as it could be. Doing things in good form and lots of work on the basics gives you a very good sense of where you are and makes your movement confident and efficient. Once youve got that you can move outside those parameters. You will still know what you are doing and where you are. If you just wing it without that foundation you will go no further than raw talent can take you.

[Gajah Silat]

So, continuing with the musical metaphor...

Of course the same scales & chords etc. have to be learnt to create the music. This again is learning by repetition. My left hand will do a major, minor or even Dorian scale automaticaly. So it's the same principle really.

OK, I also have a pretty in depth understanding of musical theory...but I can't read sheet music. Does this make me less of a musician?

Now I also play an Arabic instrument. This has quater tones! 16 notes in an octave rather than 12 :confused: These notes are 'out of tune' to most Westerners....but are they? Maybe they just don't know how to listen. But when you learn to hear the extra notes you have a whole new perspective ;)

So, to bring us back to Tiga. I know some of us use diagrams & some don't.

I'm certainly not saying there is a right or wrong way, but I'm interested in how the different methods compare.

[Tuankaki]

Wow, nice turn to the thread. I play jazz, blues and rock guitar. 3 very different styles, although they're all related in many ways. I love various syntheses of all 3. Let's see if I can find some analog to the discussion here.

With jazz and blues, one can (and should) play across the bar line, a little or way ahead of the beat, or a little or way behind the beat. I like it best when almost NOBODY is on the beat - very organic quality to the overall effect. BUT in order for this to really work, EVERYONE has to know exactly where the beat is in their heads, whether or not they intend to play on it. Blues is much easier to do this with, as the beats tend to be more obvious. With Western jazz, the rhythmic vocabulary is much more granular.

As for note choice, same thing. Blues and Rock, typically less harmonic sophistication, superimpositions, substitutions, etc. In many jazz compositions chord changes are going by sometimes at the rate 1 every second. Does the jazz player play the notes from each chord as they go whizzing by? Not hardly ever. Do have to know how to do that, and hear it in their heads even if they're not going to play it? YES.

Is jazz "better" than rock or blues? Of course not. Any one of them can "knock you sideways" within a given preformance and within a given context. You can devote a lifetime to any one of these genres, and get better and better, even masterful. Elements of this mastery have traits in common between all 3, one of which is the keen ability to listen, and predict, and shape the future before it gets here.

But there are a whole lot of "platforms" in jazz. A bunch. And if you don't know them, you can't fake it. If you want to play jazz well, you will be alone in your room much longer before you are able to go out and jam with your jazz friends. Blues? After a couple of weeks, you can go out and mix it up. Rock? Same thing.

For better or worse, I see the stuff that I do as jazz. In application it's designed to be highly improvisational, but in learning it is not. Takes a long time to be able to spontaneously interact with a dynamic environment with it, and yet that is its ultimate aim and highest expression. Seems like a contradiction, but it's not - at least to me.

Jazz pioneer Charlie Parker said, "Forget all that and play". I believe PDT was quoted as saying, "When the fight comes, relax and let the training take over." Both of those guys are recommending this from the standpoint of having thoroughly assimilated a rather daunting vocabulary, so as not to have to "think" about it when the time comes. But the study comes first, and you cannot fake it if you want to play jazz. If you do not have the vocabulary, this doesn't mean you're an inferior musician or artist in any way - but it's not jazz.

As for the use of music in practice, I'm mostly against it, although it's a lot of fun. The reason is the same as with practicing music, or singing. When you play or sing along with the record, you're bound to fool yourself into thinking you sound better than you really do! I'd rather strip that away, so as to focus on hearing my own rhythms and breathing patterns in comparison with what I'm striving for them to be. It is fun and instructional to perform with an external beat from time to time, to see if you can match those beats or move off of those beats in a self determined way. That takes about 5 minutes. After that, I'd turn the music off - unless just doing it for enjoyment, or performance - in favor of more productive use of practice time.

[Buddy]

I can't help but think of the sound track on Guru Steve's tapes. Noodling?

[Steve Perry]

I can't help but think of the sound track on Guru Steve's tapes. Noodling?

Yeah. He can do that. Man can play Stevie Ray with his eyes closed ...

[Steve Perry]

So, continuing with the musical metaphor...
OK, I also have a pretty in depth understanding of musical theory...but I can't read sheet music. Does this make me less of a musician?


Depends on how you define musician. If you get called to sit in on a recording session and the only reference you have is sheet music in standard notation, you might have a problem, even though you might be able to play circles around the other guys.

Then again, the Beatles -- a rock group some of you may have heard of -- wrote a fair number of best-selling songs. "Yesterday" has been covered by more artists than any other song in history, last I heard.

None of the Beatles could read music. It didn't seem to hurt their careers any.

Were they as adept as musicians as, say, a classically-trained guitarist like John Williams or Julian Bream? As you said, they understood their form well enough, even if they might not be able to articulate the theory, to make it work for them.

Platforms for us are like scales. You aren't likely to use them in actual playing, but they help teach you some basics that are helpful. Not all of us are naturally talented and creative to get there on our own ...

[Gajah Silat]

Excellent :)

We've all found common ground by a musical analogy. Doesn't get better than that :D

Silat & music. Off beat rythms & kembangan. Maybe we're all of a certain disposition after all :eek:

Now I'm going to take this a little further.

Having spent a lot of time in Asia, before Silat, I noticed this. (Please don't misinterpret it as some kind of racism as it is not, merely my own personal observation!!!)

I noticed many years ago that there seemed to be a much more rythmic cultural aspect when one crosses into the Indo Malay area.

So, consequently after years of feeling...er 'contained' in Japanese MA's and then discovering Silat, I thought...Yeah this is the one. The movements felt more natural rather than imposed on my body. Also, improvisation became a good thing. And you get the concept of pecahan.

I'm not saying CMA or JMA are bad, but just that Silat seemed to fit me better. Oh, that and my teacher confusing me with all those 'wierd moves' & planting me on the ground in a multitude of awkward ways in my first lesson ;)

Now, with music I'm with Old Foot! I tend to appreciate feel and expression in a lot of music I listen to and play. I also go for raw and inventive. I also love mixing it up a bit. Particularly, playing slightly off beat can really add something. Mate, nail on the head there :D

We all seem to have a lot more in commom than not :D

[realitychecker]

I 'dig' the whole musician analogy thing. But in real time fighting, the music is more like speed-metal. At least when there are a lot more than two people involved. In an experience I had in 2004 where there was a scenerio of something like 25 against 6, the music thing was definately more like speed metal. The only thing that was for certain was that there were stikes coming from every direction, no melodies.
I DO believe in finding some kind of 'harmony' in training the basics, the building blocks of any system that you may train. In the afore mentioned experience, the only music I heard were the bells-a ringin' after the second time a steel toed boot cracked my cheek bone while my head was the only thing sticking out of a pile of 8-9 people. Being in that 'jam-session' reshaped how I approach my training, and the particular art I train. I still see that fight when I train drills and spar. I find that I would rather be in the presence of a jazz ensamble than say Rahmstien on crystal meth, but now I understand(not 'know') better.
The reality (checker) of it is that when/if the time comes for you, it might not be the exact concert you'd like to be in attendence of. And we all train to be playing the music that we feel comfortable with when/if that time(s) should come. I'm still a junior to a lot of the guys in this thread, but I have a lot of flight time. I believe there is a time to take it easy and listen to someone like say Steve Cole play the smooth jazz saxophone, to achieve relaxation and clarity in your training. But you also have to know/understand that uneasy feeling of being caught in the mosh pit at some notorius death-metal jam-honest to God. Those who have been there too will know what I'm saying.
-But I DO agree with what you have all been saying. I like what I train, and now a days I hope to, if possible, avoid situations like I mentioned so I can grow old and be a cumudgeon-grump ass (like someone I know :rolleyes: )!

I like the peace and harmony that is going on here though! Who would of thought that we all could get along for so many posts in a row?
We need some of those other guys to come in and pick a fight! :woo:
Just kidding... ;)

Take care,
JR

p.s.-I like the new kaki picture Mas Tuankaki!!!!!

[Gajah Silat]

Woah RC,

How'd you end up in that situation?

The worst case scenario is usually a group fight, worse if outnumbered. It will invariably end up as a confused mess.

NEVER end up in the middle of such a situation. If at all possible stay on the periphery and seperate one at a time wherever possible. Otherwise if your that outnumbered you're usualy ***ked.

In a situation like that I believe you would be justified in arming yourself with whatever was at hand.

Mate, no MA can seriously train you for a 25 to 6 confrontation. Maybe a way to escape yes...but c'mon lifes never gonna happen like an MA flick. :)

Seems more Soulfly than soul music :D

[realitychecker]

Gajah,

In the USA, race tracks and stock car events are like Bass ale giving away free pints at a Manchester United match. The situation was unavoidable when my two little brothers, who were both in the race at the time, became the objects of another teams losing frustration. It was a very tough desicion to make running into that frey, but at the time there was already about 10 a- holes going to town on 2 of MY family. Would you be able to just stand there if it was you? I couldn't. It is logical to avoid fighting, but sometimes you just don't have a choice. I didn't want to seem like some macho brawler or anything, just relaying some experience/understanding. The reality of it is, is that while you train in your home to keep that 900 hundred pound (kilo if you will) biker on 'crack' from killing your family, it might just happen someday. And if/when it does, it ain't gonna be like the way that you visualize it.
As I got out onto the track and started swinging away, I'd say that my orginized training went out the window within the first couple of minutes. The ground was very muddy and slippery as heck. And like you said, you DON"T train to fight in those odds. Nobody really does (although I hope my Guru, who is also Mr. Perry's, will help me to catch up in that aspect). You just have to have (or hope that you do) the courage to be in it when you need to.

I vaguely remember solidly hitting the first 3-4 guys. Everything after is a complete and total blur. I believe one of my ex-VDT academy brothers put it best in saying "faces-breathing-struggling". Can't really remember anything specific until the side of my face got split open by that boot.
I did get my revenge opportunity with the guy who did the kicking. We squared off one on one in Oct '05. My training in that regards is working!
I just really wanted to use the whole 'flow' of the music thing to let you all (even my seniors) understand that you can't always pick the next song on the jukebox!
I like it, no I love it though. That's why I do it every day. Training that is. Hopefully that big a#$ biker doesn't come a knockin'. :woo:
Take care,
JR

[realitychecker]

I definately would like to make it clear that I am in no way bragging. I have a couple of pictures that my wife took of me the day after that would prove otherwise. Have been in contact with some of the guys from that other team recently who tell me they respect the hell out of me though...

[Gajah Silat]

Point taken.

Usual story, the bigger the gang the braver the Aholes :rolleyes: World over mate :bang:

There are situations where there are obvious limits.

Anyways, we've gone well off tiga! & Musical metaphors.

[realitychecker]

Argh!!!
Just sharing, Gajah! I did, in the first place, ask the music question. Second of all, I believe I totally related to music in just about every sentence.?.
I just got a little testy when you related what I said to a "MA-flick". I am sorry if I steered her off the tracks, I am. I DID state what a great, harmonious discussion this is, mate! I hope it goes back to 'Tiga's' too, Gajah!
The world needs more of em!
JR

[Fireshadow]

RealityChecker,
BN would keep the middle of the foot on the points and that would be the greatest distance of a stance (horse or penetrated). Feet should be parallel and the back should be straight (no leaning forward or sticking out your rear). It really forces you to have great hip flexibility. Putting the feet in place and the horse stance prepare you for groundwork. Bracing helps me to get into the posture. The first time PDT asked me to take this stance, I didn't understand (and wasn't flexible enough anyway), and was quite embarrassed when he had to hobble over and show me his perfect horse stance. Since then I bought one of those big yoga balls and have been sitting on it. It worked in just a couple of days, now my back is straight and I can find center much easier. Referencing BN juru 2, one thing that I recently learned is that the feet turn to the parallel horse stance position in the first motion, thus the horse is set and then you turn to it later in the juru.
Bart

[realitychecker]

Thank you very much, honestly, Guru Bart. Would like to understand it more though... But thank you.
John

p.s. Rick taught me a lot about hip flexibility, and 'key locking' them, and keeping your back straight too...

[Fireshadow]

Christopher,
As far as my training, how I train my people and how I have been trained. Everything is very structured in the beginning. This allows people to define where their shoulders are located and thus where their angles for sweeping are. Minimizing shoulder motion also increases efficiency. It's a tough line to walk because sometimes it's sure nice to turn with that BIG elbow.
Bart

[Gajah Silat]

No problems mate.

It wasn't meant as an afront. I simply meant in reality, group fights are awkward, messy and confusing & not like the MA flicks. No reference to your situation intended.

Mimpi indah Y'all

[Fireshadow]

Gajah Silat,
In BN, the lines "never" exceed the 2.5 of our own feet distance for any given stance. If we drop below a horse stance for sweeping we then use the langkah for reference of pivot points. This way the langkah helps us control our bodies. We also do several leaping and twisting drills that help us with proprioception (knowing where our body is in space). We leap, twist and control our landings to find center and control where we want to go.
Bart

[tellner]

So, continuing with the musical metaphor...

Of course the same scales & chords etc. have to be learnt to create the music. This again is learning by repetition. My left hand will do a major, minor or even Dorian scale automaticaly. So it's the same principle really.

OK, I also have a pretty in depth understanding of musical theory...but I can't read sheet music. Does this make me less of a musician?

You can play? You've put in the disciplined grunt to get the skills? You understand music? As long as you've done the training the particular exercises that got you there are personal preference. Vehicles for improvement, not an end in themselves.

[Tuankaki]

Excellent :)

We've all found common ground by a musical analogy. Doesn't get better than that :D
<snip>
We all seem to have a lot more in commom than not :DYes we do, and that has been my goal since I chose to become, shall we say, "martially unencumbered". I was pleased at the feeling we all had as a result of teaching at the Silat-a-Palooza last October or so. The "moderator" picked a topic, and each of us got up and developed on that topic, regardless of "style" or "system". Everyone had a great time and we came away from it feeling like we had fun exploring what we had in common, instead of focusing on the differences. It was a hoot.

[Tuankaki]

I 'dig' the whole musician analogy thing. But in real time fighting, the music is more like speed-metal. At least when there are a lot more than two people involved. In an experience I had in 2004 where there was a scenerio of something like 25 against 6, the music thing was definately more like speed metal. Hey Reality, I was still batting for the same team when that story came out. You are a very real and stand up guy, and your actions were on point. Your choosing to share the experience, along with the emotional insights you gained, resulted in a gain for all of us. You da Man!

In relaying your experience, you are referring to the psycho-emotive quality of the music(s), which is right on point. In my example I was referring to the different styles of music's attendant curricular and training priorities as they relate to differences in martial curriculae and training priorities.

From a psycho-emotional perspective, you are right on -- Pantera, baby! Hard to "relax"!

[Tuankaki]

You can play? You've put in the disciplined grunt to get the skills? You understand music? As long as you've done the training the particular exercises that got you there are personal preference. Vehicles for improvement, not an end in themselves.True, dat.

[realitychecker]

Hey Reality, I was still batting for the same team when that story came out. You are a very real and stand up guy, and your actions were on point. Your choosing to share the experience, along with the emotional insights you gained, resulted in a gain for all of us. You da Man!

In relaying your experience, you are referring to the psycho-emotive quality of the music(s), which is right on point. In my example I was referring to the different styles of music's attendant curricular and training priorities as they relate to differences in martial curriculae and training priorities.

From a psycho-emotional perspective, you are right on -- Pantera, baby! Hard to "relax"!

Thanks Guru Mike! Lot's of other 'experiences' growing up in Chicago, but that one stands out from a 'musical' standpoint.

I hate to change the direction of this TIGA thread, but I want to bring up SLIWA.
How do those of us who use 'platforms' train on the square? One camp that I was in teaches it is "evasive" vs. 'Tiga's' "directness".
Can I ask what everybody's thoughts are on that? I know even DR. Heini has some good experiences in that one.
Thanks,
John

[Steve Perry]

I hate to change the direction of this TIGA thread, but I want to bring up SLIWA.
How do those of us who use 'platforms' train on the square? One camp that I was in teaches it is "evasive" vs. 'Tiga's' "directness".
Can I ask what everybody's thoughts are on that? I know even DR. Heini has some good experiences in that one.
Thanks,
John

We believe that any platform can be used for either attack or defense; that said, we also feel that the square (sliwa) offers different possibilies for defense, because the angles and lines can move you out of the way of a rush differently than the tiga does. There are times when going straight in or to the side serve better than angling in or out, notably when there might be a second attacker upon whom you don't want to offer your back.

[realitychecker]

We believe that any platform can be used for either attack or defense; that said, we also feel that the square (sliwa) offers different possibilies for defense, because the angles and lines can move you out of the way of a rush differently than the tiga does. There are times when going straight in or to the side serve better than angling in or out, notably when there might be a second attacker upon whom you don't want to offer your back.

Thank you very much, Steve. Do you train the Sliwa by practicing jurus on it in a sequence?..similar to Tiga? Also, is there level changes?
Thanks again!
JR

[tellner]

We do. There are also ground exercises on all of the platforms as well as partner drills.

[realitychecker]

Thank you too, Todd. Can you please elaborate a little more?
Much appreciated!
JR

[Steve Perry]

Thank you too, Todd. Can you please elaborate a little more?
Much appreciated!
JR

I'm not sure what you are looking for, JR -- but we learn all of our djurus on each platform. We also have stepping drills, wherein you shift your stance from one point to another, and two-persons drills in which you sapu or beset, or attack or defend along a line or angle.

Ground work is trickier to describe. Here's one example: Attack comes, you can drop to a three-point stance, or a four-point, then move one support to set up for a kick, sweep, like that.

[Dr. Heineken]

Selamat,
Sliwa was a subject not touched upon in the VDT camp and is not taught till the "end" of the curriculum. That being said, we just played around and worked it the best we knew how. First with the techniques, then doing push pull exersizes, and a lot of pressure alleviation.
We would have one person just put there foot in the middle of the square, and then the secong practitioner would cross himself up in the platform, and see where he is weak. You can immediately see where you are in danger of being hit/taken down, and can help with escape routes. This is basically finding out where you are screwed; where you made a bad step/entry/lost control of shoulder line/center line...
Obviously pukulan is not used here, it is to develop the feeling of being under pressure from "off" angles, and figuring out, if in any way, how to effectively deal with the situation. Again, you messed up and are now having to deal with force from an off angle.

It can be used as a baiting tool, but this is something that was not trained in my former camp. Perhaps Mr. Perry or Mr. Ellner can elaborate on this one.

I liked it because it gave me freedom to be at a different range. I could flank more as opposed to tiga; holding your ground or cutting in.

Thank You.

Christopher

[Gajah Silat]

Our Sliwa gives us the opportunity to face both inwards or outwards on the square & we have done 'mirror' jurus whilst doing this.

Doing it low and long is a very good way of covering some distance fast. Also to position yourself behing the attacker.

[Narrue]

When the word platform is used are we talking about any geometric shape a martial artist may use as a training tool? Apart from line, triangle, square and cross what other shapes do you use?
Apart from training Langkah and pukulan do those shapes have other meanings for you?

[Gajah Silat]

Ladam Kuda=Horse shoe

Turun=drop onto 1 knee
This is useful for a 2 or 3 level attack & with both hands on the ground it gives a very stable base for a back kick or sweep, either designed to make the opponent fall alongside us....we tend to do this from behind the opponent.

Not sure about the term 'platform', must be a US thing :confused:

Hey, Narrue are you wanting to know any esoteric aspects of shapes? Sorry dude, that's the very last stage of our training. Will let you know in 30 years or so ;)

[Narrue]

Not sure about the term 'platform', must be a US thing :confused:

Hey, Narrue are you wanting to know any esoteric aspects of shapes? Sorry dude, that's the very last stage of our training. Will let you know in 30 years or so ;)

Hahaha….30 years!! Won’t you be an old man by then? What I meant is are there internal/breathing practices in Silat which are done whilst moving on a “platform”. I don’t call such practices as esoteric. I recall one such practice in which every step meant something but it was not in a silat context, just wondering if such things exist in silat?

[Gajah Silat]

Oh yoga :D ;)

Sorry mate, I just don't know. I have an inkling that movement & breathing must combine in tenaga dalam practices though.

Seriously though, breathing and posture are certainly interlinked.

Actually, almost bringing this back to thread. In one of my hippiest moments, I did study yoga in India for a while & have noticed certain similarities with some Silat postures :eek: Certainly the triangle is important in both.

As Narayan said of Indonesia, "India is everywhere, but I do not see it".

Anyway, before going wildly off track I actually wonder if one can enter a trance state through kembungan????

Oh, and 30years, I'll be pushing 70 :eek:

[Narrue]

Well movement and breath are important from a yogic point of view so im sure it should form a part of movement on a “platform”

About entering trance in kembangan I think it’s possible if you knew a little bit about how the brain works and how states of mind can be altered.

Anyway back to “platforms” I once heard of a silat system which takes its langkah step sequence from verses in the Quran, I always thought that was a very strange and complicated way of learning foot work, does anyone hear do that type of practice?

[Dr. Heineken]

Selamat,
Seems we went from tiga, to music, to sliwa, to...esoteric jogic something or other...
I think it is time for a subject change.

End topic of tiga. :cool:

Thank you to all who have offered insight to how they were trained and are training! I know that some valueable info was shared here in the last few weeks.

Dr. Heine...out...

[Gajah Silat]

But at least we didn't get the politics ;) :)