Neck trouble - styles question

[pitchblack70]

Hate for this to be my first post, but...

To introduce myself, my name is Janet (hi!). I'm a yellow belt in Fuji Ryu Jujitsu. I love it, specifically the roughness and street applicability of it.

I just got news yesterday from my sports doctor that I've had some vertebrae damage, and he doesn't recommend that I keep taking falls.

My question - *if* it turns out that I can't continue in Fuji Ryu without the falls (and I live for this style, and am extremely, extremely loyal to my Shihan, who is the best.), does Gracie require falls? In other words, if I am forced to stop taking throws and sweeps, could Gracie be my substitute for a street lethal style that wouldn't cause more damage to my neck? If not Gracie, is there anything else? (PS: I've done Ishin-Ryu Karate and Tkd, and no thanks.)

--Janet (Pitchblack70)

[gaijinboa]

Hi Janet!!

I would in fact reccommend a brazillian JJ school for your needs. There are falls within the style but I think that you will find them approached somewhat differently than most Japanese systems. Depending on the damage that you have, you may wish to consult the instructor(s) and perhaps even your doctor in cunjunction before attempting either style. Also, depending on the school you may want to find someplace that is not so much sport BJJ although a lot of schools lean that direction I have found lately

[TheMachine]

BJJ does not require that much falling as japanese jujitsu would. you might wanna try cross training in kickboxing, or if you still want something with a bit of tradition, kyokushin karate or kenpo would be good choices

[cal_JJJ]

Hi Janet,

Too bad about your problem. As JJJ & Aikido don't impact the neck when taking falls, I'm assuming that the problem is w/ jarring of your head ( & neck). If this is so, then BJJ is probably out as well as there are a fair amount of take downs, locks, and constrictions that jar the head/neck area. Same w/ Hwa Rang Do and Hapkido.
So, you are probably looking at Karate, TKD, or FMA, and you indicate that Karate & TKD are out. I find that FMA is a good compliment to JJJ and perhaps you could take refresher classes in JJJ slowing that aspect of your training down to allow your injury to heal some.

Take Care:
DavidM

[pitchblack70]

Well, the problem is two compressed disks, as well as cervical stenosis in two vertebrae foramen (translation: calcium growth restricting the canal where a few of the spinal nerves in my neck lead out into the body.)

It only came to my attention recently, due to isolated shoulder and back pain and a resulting x-ray. I'm 33, and the doc says this is normally a 50 year old's problem. Possibly due to impacts...(the pain is, incidentally, subsiding after two months)

If I could be sure it wouldn't progress...

--J

[cal_JJJ]

Hi Janet,

One of my tech's has "cervical stenosis" and he is in his mid 30's. He was told that he inherited the condition. He will get bad neck pain out of the blue doing common things like drying off his hair after a shower, sometimes. He stays active ( fishing, golf, hiking )he just has to be careful not to agrivate his condition. He goes to physical theropy where they gently stretch his neck & massage & it helps him feel better.

Have to go now, do as your doctor says or get another opinion.
Talk to you again later.
DavidM

[pitchblack70]

David,

Thanks so much for the information. Your tech - what belt is he, and does he take many falls, even with the stenosis? (IE: how much care does he take to protect his neck?)

How hard of a style is your JJ?

I'll be starting PT next week - with spray and stretch therapy.

I may *hopefully* be able to work with this. Fuji Ryu is a very hard, rough style (JJ adapted for Bronx street fighting), but if my Shihan allows me some leeway, I very much hope to continue. I love it too much.

(Hey, I need to know how to defend myself even if I *can't* take regular falls. Not like a mugger will let me go if I tell him I'm delicate...!:Angel: )

Thanks so much for the post, and hope to hear from you soon!

[cal_JJJ]

Janet;

1) Sorry, tech. is sort for technician. I work for a radio electronics company doing service & repair work. Rick, "one of my tech's", is active but doesn't do MA's.

2) I study DZR Jujitsu. We do the older style which is a bit rougher than the newer DZR/Kodokan schools. I love my art as well & would hate to have to switch.

3) Good news about the PT! We will hope for the best.

Talk again soon,
Take Care;
DavidM

[pitchblack70]

Oh, shoot. (I was interpreting tech to mean 'assistant in the dojo'.) Ah well, hopefulness on my part.

Thanks re: the PT. I'm hoping for good things. :)

And - I hope I can adapt the style to keep going: it's not fair to other students if I can practice techniques, but not take the falls - but it's either that, or not learn at all. I'll have to work it out with my Shihan.

(This is really wrong - I know she was hoping for a black belt out of me, and that's looking dim now...)

But thanks again for the post. (!)

--Janet

[mild7]

Janet,

I'd be very careful about any style of jujitsu with that neck problem of yours.

I'd avoid Gracie/Brazilian Jiujitsu in particular... because one guillotine choke would probly end your fighting career in an instant.


Take a rest/break from MA for a while. Then, maybe get a second opinion. There have been quite a lot of ppl who have gone from rather morbid diagnoses into fulltime hardcore training. Bruce Lee was told he'd never train again after a back injury. Ken Shamrock(UFC champ) broke his neck in high school, was told to avoid contact sports but became a no rules fighter!! So of course, there is hope.

good luck.

[pitchblack70]

Mild,

Thanks for the response. (I didn't know that Bruce Lee had actually had a serious back injury, and it's a bit of a boost that someone can come back from it so well.)

The medical testing is on-going. Just went to the Physical Therapist, and will be seeing an orthopedist for a second opinion soon. But my career as a Jujitsu MA is starting to come into question (Monday at the dojo, I was positively petrified of falling, and am training without it for now.) My fear is to fracture a vertebrae, or constrict my spinal column...so I'm waiting until I hear what the second Dr. has to say. God, I wish BJJ was a possible alternative! It's the only other style that fills me with the same respect as Fuji Ryu.....!

You seem to be something of a MMA: is there any neck-safe MA that incorporates the same type of street effectiveness that you've seen in Jujitsu? Just curious...

Much thanks,

--Janet

[mild7]

hi janet

most street effective MA will be using fullcontact sparring to a great degree.... which is'nt going to be too good your neck condition

the prob with cervical stenosis is that it is a progressive condition(gets worse with time), so you don' t really want to take part in a sport that will accelerate that. that means, hard blows (kickboxing out), hard throws (judo and wrestling out). So that kind of leaves you with... BJJ.

hmm. I guess the first thing is, you need to find some good forms of therapy for that neck. It is a good idea to look outside the world of conventional med(and I'm saying this as a med student).
There are lots of options out there. Prolotherapy has already been mentioned but I'm not too sure if it wouldbe applicable in your case.... i'm more familiar with it as a way of healing tendon/ligament injuries. But still, look into prolotherapy if you can, as there is literature on it being effective for slipped discs etc

Also check out Pulse Signal Therapy (PST). Literature suggests that it can halt/slow down degeneration in joints/discs.

You really have to take full responsibility for that neck. Because, the doctor is just going to say... 'stop the JJ, stop this, stop that... and while you are getting depressed about these new limitations
here are some antidepressants to help cope with the new situation'. Which is not good enough, but that is the way conventional med is.

When you are certain you have done all you can to help stabilize the cervical stenosis... then start to look for a BJJ school. You'll need one with a sympathetic instructor and mature students. Tell them about your neck condition, and specifically avoid standup training(the throws) and don't allow your partners to apply neck submissions.

It can work. There is a guy in my BJJ club, and before he rolls with anyone he tells them NOT to apply any subs to his right ankle, because of multiple previous injuries to it. Despite this, he is pretty good at BJJ...

once again good luck and hope this helps

[mild7]

heheh... speak of the devil...

just read on maxfighting that Mark Coleman (currently Pride NHB fighter) has just undergone neck surgery as well.

the op was successful and he's going to be back in fighting soon!

So, like I mentioned earlier, there is always hope even when it seems like you've been diagnosed with a morbid-sounding condition.

check it out;

www.maxfighting.com/rossen/rossen_091703.asp


That Dr Jho sure sounds like a real innovator in cervical stenosis surgery!

[pitchblack70]

Dear Mild,

Thanks for the info - a few questions (since the Dr's I'm seeing are giving only partial advice, and probably are just unfamiliar with martial arts in general.) Thank God you're a medical student! Whatever info you could give would be appreciated.

(And let me throw in the obligatory clause: whatever medical information you may choose to share, I take full responsibility for making my own informed medical decisions, and hold no-one responsible but myself for any injury I might sustain now or in the future! :) ) There. Done.

MEDICAL QUESTIONS:

Re: DDD/Stenosis and throws/falls. What's the specific danger there? Cervical instability? Impingement on a nerve? Fractured vertebrae? What's the actual risk?

And what about rolls? Soft rolls, or one-downs? (IE: stay down, and slap the mat?)

And is there danger to taking punches or kicks to the body? How about just hitting a striking pad hard - would that be *relatively* safe?

BBJ QUESTIONS:

So, what does a typical BBJ class look like? Is it all on the ground, or some standing up techniques? How much full body wrestling's involved? What do you do in a standard BJJ class?

Much thanks in advance for anything you can tell me, or suggest.

--Janet

[mild7]

well,

with rgd to the cervical sten and throws, the prob is not going to be something sudden and dramatic.. i.e. your vertebrae are not necessarilt brittle/instable, as your doc explained the condition is due to new bone growth which narrows your spinal canal.

so it's not going to be like.... boom! and suddenly you can't get up because you've broken something in your neck. But rather, because of the consistent impact pounding you're going to take on the neck/back area, the bone growth within your spinal canal is going to accelerate, further constricting the spinal cord.

You can see the relationship between throws/takedowns and cerv sten by how a LOT of competitive wrestlers/judokas have this prob... from Kurt Angle(now WWE wrestler) to even my Judo coach who has cervical sten as well!!!(needless to say he only does groundwork now)

So basically, avoid throws!

with rgd to rolls, i would'nt recommend them either. If it hurts to flex your neck(put your chin to chest), or to extend(look up), and even if it does'nt hurt I would'nt do rolling as your neck will be flexing fully during the motion, this could slowly damage the spinal cord. It is a slow process of course, but still worth avoiding.

There should'nt be any problems taking punches and kicks to the body. Hitting a pad hard should be no problem either.


with rgd to BJJ,
majority of classes spend almost all their time on the ground! but the curriculum differs class to class. but expect a lot of full body wrestling.
in a standard class, the coach will show a technique. then you drill it with a partner who will offer more resistance as you get better with the technique. then the coach will show a few more techniques and you repeat the drill process. After all that is done, you 'roll'; i.e. sparring. Usually starts on knees, no striking unless you really want to and your partner does'nt mind.

reason why i thought BJJ would be your best bet with your condition is; not much throwing, not much formal exercises like repeated rolling. Also, from my experience, aside from the odd few nutters in every martial art class, most BJJers are quite laid back, so if you tell them about your neck problem they will understand.

Just TWO things.
(1) don't ever let anyone apply a neck crank on you(guillotine)
(2)don't let them 'stack' you either(stacking means a guy curling you up into a ball, so there is pressure on the neck)

So, before you spar with someone in BJJ, tell them, 'please, no guillotines or stacking as i have a severe neck problem'. A few idiots might complain, but besides the guillotine there are PLENTY other chokes they can practice on you(actually, just about every other choke!). Also, with regard to 'stacking', it is something normally done when someone wants to 'pass your guard', but there are PLENTY other ways for ppl to pass your guard as well that don't require stacking.

Bottomline is, don't feel too bad or guilty about this, like I said I have a guy in my class who does not let anyone apply ankle subs on him and all of us respect that and don't bitch about it. If it is a good class worthy of your time it will be the same for you.

also, concentrate more on the drills(which are bloody important anyway), don't spar too hard and too frequent.

see how that goes for you.


You can also do home training, get a punching bag and practice kickboxing combinations on it. There is still a lot of martial training that can be done for someone with your condition!

I can't really add more to that. Maybe consider surgery under Dr Jho! (seriously, that guy is good).


hope this helps!

[pitchblack70]

Mild,

Thanks. Just wanted to let you know that I really appreciate your having taken the time to explain the issue in detail, and provide practical advise. (Again, I do take full responsibility for any activity I decide to undertake.)

The other day I had emailed the orthopedist I'd seen for a second opinion - he'd sent the original email stating that if I had any further questions, don't hesitate, yada yada yada. To my four part (brief as possible) email (which pretty much mirrored what I asked you without the BJJ questions), he sent back the following response: "you should avoid contact sports, and please be aware that other activities could be risky too."

I wasted a second opinion on that?!?!?!?

Anyway, thanks quite a bit. :)

--Janet

[mild7]

well that's ok. I like to help people, which is why I did med in the first place!

one thing to keep in mind is... i'm not a doctor. i'm still a student, and what I'm telling you is simply based on my theoretical knowledge and also what I observe and see in others with Cerv Sten. (mainly my judo coach!!!)

I guess the key is to improvise. conventional med does too much generalising. I never agreed with the 'avoid all contact sports' bit. If you take the time to look at the condition carefully, you will see that you can STILL train, but you have to be very smart about.

Obviously, an orthopaedist is'nt going to have the time to sit down and look at a specific activity and say, 'ok, avoid the throws, avoid the moves where the neck is going to be fully or violently flexed etc'!!

anyway, best of luck for the future!

[pitchblack70]

Thought I'd post this, in case someone else has this problem and finds the thread.

I just got a clean bill of health! Talked with a spine rehab specialist who has worked for years with professional boxers, nonetheless.

Did an MRI, and yes, I do have stenosis, and spondylosis (ie: calcium growth between the vertebra, compressed discs and some slippage between vertebra).

BUT: he said that it's not so severe as to stop me from doing jujitsu, and that JJ is NOT going to aggravate the situation or be dangerous to do.. (It's progressive, but would progress with or without the JJ.) The only thing he cautioned me not to do is be in a PROLONGED position of neck flexion. (IE: Like Yoga neck stands.)

So - if anyone gets this diagnosis, make sure you go talk with a specialist. There's hope!

--Janet

[Kwajman]

I'm a medical practitioner, do you really want to risk your neck for a martial sport? Think hard about it...

[pitchblack70]

Kwajman,

Believe me, I have been (and continue to) give it serious thought. This rehab doctor I mentioned is a spine specialist, who was the Madison Avenue boxing doctor for many years. And he tells me that it is safe to continue to practice. It's still MY neck if something goes wrong, I know that, and it does give me pause.

I am still open to what others have to say - I love JJ with a passion, but no, it's not worth my spinal cord. The question becomes, as a layperson, who do I listen to?

Thanks,

--Janet

[Kwajman]

Yes I do understand. Just be very careful with the grappling styles. Maybe modify your training to a softer style or just make sure that your training partners understand your potential limitations.

[lamegrappler]

Originally posted by pitchblack70
Thought I'd post this, in case someone else has this problem and finds the thread.

I just got a clean bill of health! Talked with a spine rehab specialist who has worked for years with professional boxers, nonetheless.

Did an MRI, and yes, I do have stenosis, and spondylosis (ie: calcium growth between the vertebra, compressed discs and some slippage between vertebra).

BUT: he said that it's not so severe as to stop me from doing jujitsu, and that JJ is NOT going to aggravate the situation or be dangerous to do.. (It's progressive, but would progress with or without the JJ.) The only thing he cautioned me not to do is be in a PROLONGED position of neck flexion. (IE: Like Yoga neck stands.)

So - if anyone gets this diagnosis, make sure you go talk with a specialist. There's hope!

--Janet



I do BJJ and I would not consider doing BJJ if prolonged neck flexion was a problem because there are times when your neck and head will get stuck,and thats not counting all the submissions and chokes that attack the neck.