Are black belts better people?

[mmafiter]

When I was a senior student, I never recieved any pleasure from having junior belts bow to me and defer to me as if I were somebody special. I mean, we had doctors, teachers, lawyers, etc training with us and they're acting as if I'm the greatest thing since sliced bread just because I had a belt? No, I always requested that everyone treat me the same as the other junior students.

Many black belts thrive on this sense of power though. One time during a grading I was witness to a disgusting display by one of my senior belts. A poor little yellow belt was grading and there was many people there, including his family. Well, this guy was really nervous and after performing his kata, bunkai, and whatever else, he accidently walked in front of this black belt. The rule was, you must walk behind a senior belt, although I don't know why.

Well, this black belt, grabs the yellow bely by the collar, shakes him violently while yelling at him that he must never walk in front of a senior belt and he must at all time show respect. The yellow belt was very frightened and embarrassed.

After the grading, I went up to this black belt and waited patiently while the sheep fawned and oohed and aahed at him. When it was my turn I walked up to him and said; "If I EVER see you treat a junior student like that again, I will personally beat the living crap out of you the next instant. Do you understand?"

He stammered and his little entourage gasped. "You can't talk to me like that!" he replied. "I'm your senior!"

"I don't give a crap who you are. I just want to make myself perfectly clear. If you do that again, you're going to get the beating of your life." I replied and walked away.

Well, he didn't do it again, at least not around me. As a matter of fact he wouldn't even look me in the eye for as long as I trained there.:D

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Hmm, we have it that you have to treat senior students with respect. However we also have it that they must show the same respect to you. A lack of courtesy on anyone's part is punished equally (most often lots of pressups), actually senior belts usually suffer more (twice as many pressups) because of it since they should be able to show more courtesy.

An example would fit here I think. Once I went up to my instructor to ask about something, I forget what now. Anyway, he's a fourth dan and I'm a first. I bowed to him, he turned and casually spoke to me, then caught himself and did fifty pressups before getting back up, bowing, and then continuing the conversation.

[mmafiter]

Actually, I got a little off topic with my story there.:rolleyes:

What I meant was, you have a doctor and he's just come from surgery. He comes to class and he's bowing down to some guy with a black piece of cloth on his belt?

I'm a Federal Correctional Officer and member of the I.E.R.T. which is basically a S.W.A.T. team. Many times I would come to class a little late because of a situation, and some little black belt who was a Bus-boy at Swiss Chalet, would demand I do 100 push-ups for penance.

Now, I'm thinking to myself. I just spent 4 hours in a stifling hot riot suit with a shotgun in my arms, blasting various forms of munitions down a range with rioting murderers and rapists. I really don't need this kids attitude. But, I would just suck it up and do it.

Does anybody else see what I'm talking about here?

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Yep, I see what you're talking about and agree completely. Firstly just because he's a black belt he shouldn't have any authority over junior ranks, if he's an instructor or assistant yes, but just because he's supposed to know more and have been doing the art longer doesn't give him authority over anyone.

Secondly why should you be given pressups for being late? If its a regular thing that you show no concern about and don't even try to correct then yes, maybe because it would show a lack of dedication to the art. No one can be on time all the time though. You certainly shouldn't have pressups for being late, maybe if it happens a lot a talk with the instructor to explain why, but other than that nothing is needed.

[mmafiter]

My argument isn't so much with doing pushups, it's more the question, is this guy a better person because he dons a black belt?

There's a local 5th degree black belt instructor here who's a phenomenal martial artist, but he's a slime ball. The worst type of human sludge you can imagine. His ego is so big, it just makes you want to puke or laugh, I don't know which.:rolleyes: :p

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Not really. A black belt won't make anyone a better person, the person makes the belt, not the other way round.

[STASH]

I know exactly what your talking about. We had an instructor come in straight from Korea for a couple weeks, I dont remember specificly at what level this guy was at, bit it was damn high, higher then any of the instructors at our school. Anyways, I came in late one day because of a football game, I came in running through the door and I forgot to bow. After I walked out of the change room he got a staff and started smacking me around with it , I know this sounds weird but it happened believe it or not. I couldnt do anything about it, I just had to stand there and take the beating, by the end I was rolling around on the ground in pain. None of the instructors stepped in to intervene, they just stood there. I was about 14 at the time and I know I should have bowed, I wouldnt have complained about pushups or laps or anything, but a beating with a staff? I think thats going too far.

[mmafiter]

Good Lord! Beating you with a stick?!?!:eek: I should hope you left that school. I couldn't imagine just standing around watching some poor kid get whacked with a stick, I don't care what degree belt the guy holds.:mad:

[Freeform]

No, a belt doesn't make a 'better person'. But then you have to show Senior grades the 'appropriate' respect. If your late, your late do your push-ups. I sometimes help my Sensei teach a class of Juniors and i have to do a 110mile round trip to do it. If I get caught in traffic and am late I'll come into the Dojo, bow get changed and do push ups myself, the Senior grades have to be an example to the Juniors.

In saying that 'All' grades must show respect and not take advantage of others. There has to be some form of discipline/self-discipline.

And yes I do feel weird when I've got teachers and doctors bowing at me, but then I also bow to them. Just remember that the dojo and real world are two separate entities. After training, down the pub (a pivotal part of your MA) these teachers/doctors are giving me stick, something they'd never do in the dojo.

See what I mean? Mutual respect is necessary in the dojo, respect that someone knows more about 'the art' is necessary, and respect that someone knows more about the world/life is necessary.

Thanx

P.S I wouldn't take a stick beating of anyone, and I sure as hell wouldn't stand back and let some egomaniac do it to a kid!!!

[STASH]

Yea, I didnt think it was normal or right either. I just stayed away from him but I wouldnt leave the school, the way I saw it that would be showing everyone there that I was scared of him and that he could do whatever he wanted to me. He went back to Korea eventually and everything returned to normal but I will NEVER forget that incident.

[waya]

I wouldn't say "better people" But I would expect anyone ranked with a Dan grade to be respectable, and respectfull to others. The egotistical behavior is something I despise.

Rob

[KarateKid1975]

I agree waya. In any martial art, you learn (or supposed to) some kind of respect, self control, and better your character. By the time one gets to black belt, I would expect them to be humble, and an all around better person. But, like it was said before, it doesn't always happen that way. It's just an ego thing for some people and that's very sad.

[Silver_no2]

I can't believe that other people stood around and watched him beat you with a stick, Stash. What does that suggest about their lack of character?

I think that respect has to be earned. I will not be disrespectful to my seniors (or my juniours) but the level/amount of respect that I have for them will be based on who they are as a person - not what colour of material they have wrapped round their waist. I would have more respect for a yellow belt who tries his/her hardest to learn at all times and improve his/her ability than I would for a first dan who thinks that they are superior due to the belt. Too many achieve a dan grade and then stop trying to learn, thinking that they have "done it".

I agree with ckdstudent when he says that the person makes the belt, not the other way round.

[KarateKid1975]

I agree with both Silver and ckd.

[Silver_no2]

Thank you KK1975. It's good to know that occassionally people agree with me! It doesn't happen that often :)

[KarateKid1975]

Your welcome silver.

One of my schools "oaths" is to "respect all seniors and instructors". I don't agree with that. I would respect a white belt just as I would a higher rank. But I like to get to know them as a person. If they try really hard, and are an all around nice person, I'd respect them even more. But if a higher rank (or any rank) as an ego problem, I would not respect them, only because they disrespect everyone else with that attitude. That's just me, though.

[Silver_no2]

Think that you are not the only one with that opinion. Having been reading peoples posts on this site for about six months now I would suggest that the vast majority of the members here would agree with you (though I'm sure they are all capable of speaking for themselves!). I know I do.

[KarateKid1975]

Thanks Silver :)

[Melanie]

I remember when I first started MA that I looked up at my Sensei with an element of awe. The techniques were sharp, defined and very quick. He explained things clearly and concisely and didn't mind repeating again and again and again. He worked on the basis of the particular elements of skill that the karateka demonstrated and pointed the right way for the student. However, it didn't take me long to work out that he was as human as the rest of us. He had his frustrations too. He was doing so many basics with us that he sometimes lost out on training the more advanced combinations and kata, thus his performance would suffer a little (not that I ever saw it).

I still hold every Blackbelt with an element of respect upon meeting them. However, they may have instant respect from me because (normally) they have trained for many years and have been recognised for their training and ability. But these days they then earn respect from me depending on their attitude in class and not just their prowess on the dojo floor.

I feel that the most important element of training is the mindset. The determination to train and train to get the technique as good as you can. Martial Arts IMO is not getting everyone elses appreciation not even particularly belts. Martial Arts I feel is about proving to yourself and getting over your own inabilities - I do Shotokan for myself, not my Sensei (but it is nice to get his approval ;) ). It depends on what YOU want from Martial Arts too. It's not only about the movements, its about spirit, language, lineage and application as well.

Right - ooops! Sorry about that...things on my mind at the moment ;)

[ladyhawk]

Respect is a requirment in our dojo.
Everyone is treated with respect regardless of rank. Kids and adults are addressed as Mr. Mrs.
or Ms. When answering it's Yes Sir, No Sir, Yes Ma'am, No Ma'am. We rei upon entering the dojo
and upon leaving. We rei before speaking to someone and after the conversation is over.

[Greyghost]

Politeness and curtesy is extended to everyone.

Respect however is earned and not given.



Two branches of the same tree.

:)

[ladyhawk]

Yes, I see what you mean and I agree.
Wrong choice of words on my part.

[Freeform]

Greyghost, you've hit it bang on the nail there. There are yet alot of Instructors I know of who have yet to learn the difference between respect and fear.

Thanx

[Chazz]

As i have seen in a lot of posts, Respect in required...... It is required in the dojo, out of it, in our life. In class we tell that everyone is treated like a member of your family that you love cause we all our family in the MA. There is always problems within a family but we should use the respect for ourself to be the bigger person to end the problem before it gets out of hand. I go to a lot of tournament and i see more respect between lower ranks than i see with the black belts. I dont know if its like that everywhere og just in the area that i travel in. Does anyone else see what im talking about??

[mattsylvester]

I agree with the consensus in that it's the person that makes the belt and not the other way round. Unfortunately you will see many people who have both a wrong attitude and who lack the skill to actually hold the belt in the first place.

[stump]

Hi all, call me naieve but I thought people who wouldn't make good blackbelts (the type mentioned in the earlier posts) would be either weeded out quickly or taught how to be respectful very soon after starting their training.

I started my training with a couple of people who I always hoped would not progress very far. Basically they were bullies who got far too excited when learning how to hurt people!! Thankfully they gave up fairly quickly. I'd really hate to think of people like that getting to a senior grade.

[mattsylvester]

Originally posted by mattsylvester
I agree with the consensus in that it's the person that makes the belt and not the other way round. Unfortunately you will see many people who have both a wrong attitude and who lack the skill to actually hold the belt in the first place.

Hi Naive :0)

Unfortunately, if people do the time then they generally get promoted even if they're not what you would expect a black belt to be like. Sucks but ho hum.

[Chazz]

Some school like Matt said just goes by time. If you are there and you pay your fee you can get whatever you want. Then you have some school that you dont get you black belt if the Head instructor doesnt think that your ready physically and mentally. If you dont show the right attitude you dont pass. Martial arts is as much in the mind and heart as it is in anything. All i can say is if you meet one of the black belt that likes to show his ......(tail) then let them, they are only hurting them self.

[morphus]

I 've just read this particular thread and i am appalled at the severe beating stash took, FORGET RESPECT, THATS TRASH, if that had been my son i'd have involved the police, that is just abuse. Just because the SO-CALLED master came from another culture doesnt give him the right to beat an innocent minor at 14yrs of age.:mad:

This story has really ticked me off!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[STASH]

Dont worry morphus...i will train hard and one day, it may be 20 years from now I will have my revenge!!!MUAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!

No, just kidding, the truth is I dont even care anymore. Its life and chances are I'll run into more people like that but this time I'll be able to do something about it.

[darlph]

Just had to get my 2 bits in. Black Belts have trained hard to get where they are. In most schools unless they themselves were not respectful of others or considerate enough to set the best example of what it means to earn or be a Black Belt they wouldn"t have the rank. I truly believe helping my students and co-students to my best ability shows that I have respect for them and, hopefully, they will for me.
New students seem to come in scared and in awe of any rank higher than white. They feel out of place, out of touch, and behind everyone else they think have been there for a long time. It's our job as upper ranks and Black Belts to help them get through that. And also, that it doesn't take expert skill to succeed, but drive & determination and the will to devote oneself to another aspect of themselves.

[Jim]

I agree with Greyghost that higher grades should be treated with courtesy and defered to, but respect must be earnt.

I have been in situations before where higher ranks have 'disiplined' a lower rank to a point that I thought was too excessive, but in most circumstances I have taken my objection to the person afterwards (in private).

Regarding what happened to Stash, I have actually seen this happen before but it was actually in a Gymnastics class not martial arts.

The Chinese coach had a little cane that she was striking the young girls she was teaching with. Cultural thing that she was used to in her country but was pulled up really quickly by the parents.

But the original thread was 'Are BB's better people'. I certainly hope so! That's one reason I train others - in the hope that I'm making them better people not just better fighters.

'Martial' - yes, 'Arts' - certainly.

[morphus]

go for it

[Freeform]

If any of the newer members of the site want to look at the commercialism thread than alot of you will realise how 'unsuitable' candidates for BB can get them. What a raging debate that was... them were the days... everyones far to nice these days...

(In a nostalgic haze)

Freeform

[Jim]

Freeform, P*&^ off.

Is that nasty enough for ya?

Has Mel gone yet? ;)

Oh, bugger. :O

[Melanie]

No...not yet Jim :D

[Side-kick]

This is very interesting topic all round.

To answer the thread starters initial question. I would say NO. Getting 'a black belt' won't humble/enlighten the wearer automatically. Pity.
The whole process of self-control could go out the window once authority and power are tasted in lieu of the new status reached. This happens in other circles too. Take academia. You have professors who can strut about like 'Lords in Tight Trousers' I found. They wield power and expect respect because of their status. I have met and spoken to about 8 professors quite in-depth and only 1 I could say had an 'empty cup'. One other was with a bit out-of-it Ivory tower like [Ok that’s fair enough]. The Others were just plain arrogant capable of humiliating junior researchers/students. This last category had their sycophantic followers too. That's why when I saw an earlier reply about 'sheep' in an above thread I could recognise the symptoms.
Also chess clubs are the same. Chess has its status/ability demarcations too and these translate into authority structures too. After a county game watch chess players in the pub and watch them congregate around the strongest player [an International Master maybe]. Yuck - it makes you sick. Just the same as above. Watch them analyse games in a post mortem and the nodding crowed weave in the gaps around the strongest player - you can see deference in action.

Humility should be the tool that keeps your 'cup empty' [this applies to ALL levels]. It should be tested and a condition for any belt retention. Alternatively go to a system that doesn't have belts and see how the group differentiates itself. Is there an informal 'class' system there. All this belt stuff is a bit 'Feudal' - its it necessary?

I saw once of Bruce Lee's students strutting about giving a seminar no the 1 inch punch. Same strutting about and body-language. Yuck. I watched people in the class sitting wide eyed like rabbits when he was talking. Its really interesting to see. (I see this in some of my students (in academia), I don't want them thinking all this knowledge they get is from some sort of deity - they must also be questioning and critical - in this respect Bruce Lee was correct. Teachers must be the finger pointing to the moon - NOT the moon. They are tools to learning a knowledge system they are not the embodiment of that system. That’s why sycophancy needs to be checked - it’s not healthy for anyone.

[pgm316]

I was just about to start my usual ranting about how I don't believe in the belt system. Then I realised that isn't the issue of this thread. So my answer would be yes black belts are better people. I nearly said no, but then I thought about all the black belts I train with or have trained with, and in general I would have to say they are some of the better people i've know in my life. More considerate and caring. Selfless in the way they help others. And surprisingly mild mannered considering there fighting abilities.

[darlph]

I still believe the person make's the belt. Hopefully the bad is weeded out at a lower level. I don't believe hitting anyone in order to discipline or to show "power" is wrong. Being I have a neck problem I do not spar too often with the big dogs. I stick with the beginners most of the time. Talk about some wild punches and no control, I let them know no to hit me hard in the head.Hopefully I can avoid it. If they do, I say great shot and if it's too hard I tell them to try to lighten up the face is not a target. They get a kick out of beating a BB. Doesn't bother me and it gives them some of the confidence and skill that they need. They realize after I have to spar some one at my rank or close to, in front of them, that I am a little tougher than they thought. But at least I respected them enough to give them a chance to practice the skills they are learning, instead of just beating the &^$%&$ out of them. I believe you have to give respect to earn it.

[HKD]

being a black belt does not make U a better person or mean Ur a better person. i am a 3rd dan in tkd 3rd dan in hkd and i have met and trained with 9th dan grand masters and masters and 1st dan students and black belt means U have trained this long or that long. U have have to look past that, not saying U shouldn't give a black belt respect but it just doen't mean Ur a better person.

HKD

[Spike]

Quote:

I don't believe hitting anyone in order to discipline or to show "power" is wrong.

Why don`t you think hitting someone to show power is wrong? Could you explain this a little?

[Sonshu]

The simple answer is we are not better people because we have a black belt - We are just black belts!

Colour makes no difference as there are great black belts and naff black belts - depends on the person.

The belt colour makes sod all difference in my oppinion!

[pgm316]

Originally posted by Sonshu
The simple answer is we are not better people because we have a black belt

True, but are we black belts because we are better people[?]
To get a black belt you've had to prove you've got the will power and discipline to train hard.

Some black belts I know are absolute ass clowns, but on average they are good people.

[Sam]

ive seen black belts who are no better than kyu grades but think they are the dogs b******s because they wear a black belt. belts are given out today like sweets to a spoilt baby its undeserved of them but is given to them for an easier life.
its not just the students at fault tho senseis are to blame also its all to do with money i hear of a lot of people today going abroad and "buying" their black belts from a senior martial artist for £500
is this what its come to?
you will only deserve the belt if you think you are good enough to wear the belt
anyone can be a black belt but can you be good enough to deserve one.

skc
:Angel:

(i hope this makes sense)

[wayofthedragon]

Hmmm...I haven't posted here yet:confused: That's odd.....anyway are black belts better people......
This is really not a difficult question if you think about it, though I havent' read everything in this thread, I will tell you the truth summed up in one word.........

NO

[pgm316]

S does that mean we're wasting our time training in martial arts to get Blackbelts WOTD?

[wayofthedragon]

Nope, not at all. But if you are training in the mind that obtaining a black belt will make you a better person, then you are training for the wrong reason, and also I may say wasting your time in my opinion. Being a black belt has nothing to do with it in any way you look at it. It's not about the color of the belt, or what level you have reached in your training. Being a better person depends on many factors, factors that does not even particularly pertain to martial arts

(If some one has mentioned this or if I'm going off topic, sorry guys, but I haven't read everything in this tread. I'm just giving my input from my opinion and views)

[pgm316]

Your exactly right WOTD, personally I'd rather not have a belt system. But if you look at the question as, is the average Blackbelt better than somebody that doesn't do martial arts, I'd have to say on average, I think they are!

Still, some BB's are fools, only made worse by having a BB round their waist. But you get that in every form of life. I like the Japanese way, we're BB's really aren't that big a deal, and its not a Chinese thing anyway. Just the western world that seem to believe there such a great achievement...

[wayofthedragon]

Exactly PGM
It's really not that big of a deal. I know a lot of black belts that really suck, in skills and in character.

They don't have to do, but they are blinded by the color of a belt around their waist:(
Thats sad

Some black belts though are really good people, but thats not the point, the point is, it has nothing to do with a belt.

[Cain]

Ahh!!! But then, my dear WOTD, that's wat belts r for, to indicate that the person has reached a certain level of training, belts r not about ego or power, I used to think otherwise before but even a black belt has a reason to be there in the martial arts, just as there is a reason for everything to be there, I believe a black belt gives the wearer more confidence, is a symbol of his hard work and training.

And to put things in a simple way -

Black belts are supposed to be better martial artists

But sadly some just are'nt, in other words, some just don't deserve it.

enuff said

|Cain|

[pgm316]

On the other hand, if they weren't good people like you mention, its unlikey they'd have had the commitment to train to be BB's. So the BB, does still represent something, regardless of what we think about the whole belt system......

[Cain]

Exactly PGM, just like everything in the martial arts has a reason to be there.

|Cain|

[pgm316]

Still, I'm only saying on average a black belt is probably a better person in general than an average person you might find on the street. There's probably far better religious people or people that do lot of charity work. I wouldn't claim to be a great person, just slightly better than average ;)

[Cain]

LOL,

But I was talking about the meaning of a black belt, not what they r today

|Cain|

[waya]

Originally posted by pgm316
On the other hand, if they weren't good people like you mention, its unlikey they'd have had the commitment to train to be BB's. So the BB, does still represent something, regardless of what we think about the whole belt system......

Not in every case.... No matter how much we'd all like to say it doesn't happen... There are alot of places that "sell" belts and even much higher Dan grades because it's easy money.

[wayofthedragon]

Yes, a black belt dose have meaning and purpose, yet......
I think that many people in todays society have mis read, mis interpeted, and mis represented what what being a black belt is really about, and has made a mockery of it.

[pgm316]

Originally posted by waya


Not in every case.... No matter how much we'd all like to say it doesn't happen... There are alot of places that "sell" belts and even much higher Dan grades because it's easy money.

I agree waya, I was only saying on average. Definitely not in every case, absolutely not.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Taking money for, say, three years training up front is one thing, and saying that if you're up to scratch you'll get a black belt at the end is fine. Taking the money and giving them the belt and only then offering the training is another matter.

[TkdWarrior]

u know one of BB told me that BB comes from hard works over the years with preservernce, hard work, discipline. if u hav really worked hard then u'll understand the belt..otherwise not...

i think CKD is rite(in one of first post here in thread) it's about Seniors showing the way...in my class when a junior bows the senior is supposed to bow too n this starts from my teacher who is IV dan, whenever soemone bows if he's doing anything he'll stand up n then bow... when two seniors greet they first basically bow in front of each other n then later shake hands
watever mmafighter or stash observed is very very shameful act...
we all there to learn... it's not a cult...

-TkdWarrior-

[TigerAn1]

Our school seems pretty good about this. I've never heard or seen a situation where a BB busts someone's chops for not bowing on the spot to his/her presence. There seems to be a good congeniality between all members for the most part. At least, like I said, I've haven't noticed anything in the 9 months I've been around there. My kids tell me some of the older kids get a bit bossy in their classes, but I take their age's (10 - 15) into consideratrion for that. I've never heard of any situation involving physical contact between a senior belt and a junior belt regarding anything. My guess is, if there ever was a confrontation of that type, both would be disciplined by our Master.

[Poop-Loops]

Hmm, we have it that you have to treat senior students with respect. However we also have it that they must show the same respect to you.

Yup, same here. When 2 different ranked people spar, or whatever, they BOTH bow to eachother, regardless of who's what rank.

PL

[ap Oweyn]

I think we get too hung up on the rituals surrounding respect rather than engendering respect itself.

Crossing in front of a black belt was just an act by a nervous young kid. And the black belt didn't care in that moment whether the kid was genuinely disrespectful or no. All he cared about was that the kid had failed to perform an act.

By the same token, reprimanding the kid like that in front of his school and family won't teach respect. Only fear.

If this were real life, MMAFiter, I'd shake your hand. As is, though, I'll have to settle for saying "thanks" for not letting the system get the better of your sense of ethics.


Stuart B.

[Togakure]

I think a certain degree of respect should be shown to ALL people when you first meet them, that kind of respect should not have to be earned.

However after that, I agree respect should have to be earned yes, after being polite to somone, if they are not respectfull back, my respect for them will drop to zero.

As for blackbelts being a better person because of it.

Like any profesion or hobby, a person can 'wing it' to the top, but they are just shadows and imitators of a genuine blackbelt who knows both sides of the coin.

Even if I never reach 1st Dan, I shall be happy in the knowledge I am still training, and learning.

I beleave a good blackbelt is more humble than the lowest white belt.

So no, I defitinily dont think a blackbelt is a better person just because they are black belts.

[Hyaku]

Being in Japan and well ensconsed in the hierarchy system here I must admit by initial hopes and aspirations were the same as a lot of people. I viewed the higher ranks around me with awe and did expect them to perhaps be "better people".

I would have to disagree with some people and say that being a better person and examining one own strengths and weaknesses is the Budo tradition. You "should" try to be better. To be better to help others. There is no machoism involved. A senior helps juniors! In a rank system not too much to expect from Shodan but as we rise well above that we generally should expect more.

But there are exceptions! I have seen some high ranking people that naturaly rise throught the ranks with age and practice that are complete dipshits. In talking about this to a fellow Menkyo Kaiden he said "Well, we are all human beings. Sadly we cant expect too much.

What has surprised me is that in Japan, the land of community thinking, there are a tremendous amount of people that want to be chiefs and not indians. Too many breakaways for my liking. Then they go to other countries and people naturaly assume that they have their own organization so they must be "good".

Bowing is from mutual respect. One tries to bow lower than ones seniors. But I will never beat the deep bow of the little old lady who lives next door and may want to knock on my door in an emergency. The older you get the lower you bow.

[aml01_ph]

... it's more the question, is this guy a better person because he dons a black belt?


The answer's simple: NO.

Ever browsed this website (www.24fightingchickens.com)? Check out the Mu section. There's an article over there about ****** instructors.

[Kwan Jang]

-I agree with the notion that respect is something that has to go both ways. In fact, I think it is the senior student or the instuctor's responsibility to show (and live) the example to their juniors/students. I make sure to call even my youngest students "Sir' or Ma'am" because I feel that they deserve it. They are putting in the effort to learn and there are only three ways to teach:1)by example 2)by example and 3) by example.
-There are too many (IMO any over zero would truthfully be too many) people who use MA rank or any position of power to further their own egos and to belittle others. In regards to the question of whether being a black belt makes you a better person, my awnser would be that if you had to grow and evolve as a human being to achieve this level, the process should make you a better person. If the process doesn't achieve this for whatever reason, then a piece of cloth won't do much to add to it.
-It's my opinion that the point of being any type of leader is really to serve those that you lead. Rather than put yourself on some high pedastal, but to come down and help lift your students or juniors up to a higher level. No one is perfect, but trying your best to live up to these ideals and standards have helped me to become a better person and teacher, though I still have a long way to go. I try to convey this to all my students, espescially my black belts. BTW- If I ever saw any of my black belts EVER physically lay hands on any underbelt (espescially a child) because they did not follow some ritual to pay homage to the ego of that black belt; that would be THE last day that fool would ever be in my school. If a school observes some traditions to help create what they believe is a better learning enviroment for the students, that is one thing. Our schools use several formalities for such purposes (many of which I have questioned at different times over the years, though most I have come to understand the benefits of). However, if a student forgets, then a polite and gentle reminder may be appropriate, but never any form of abuse, whether emotional or physical.

[shootodog]

it's like saying tall guys play better ball.

[Togakure]

it's like saying tall guys play better ball.

I thought they did, lol.

(if your talking about basket ball that is)

[Mrs Owt]

Of course not.

Better people are made by morals and character. They are made by caring about others and their families. They are made by good decisions and choices. The good things that MA training has to offer have to be chosen and accepted into a persons belief and behaviour systems, just studying them or paying lipservice to them in itself will not make a someone a "better" person.

We all have heard of or know of BB's who do drugs - so much for discipline.
We all have heard of or know of BB's who harass (sexually or otherwise students) - so much for good character.
We all have heard of or know of BB's who are egotistical and envious - so much for humility and self-effacement.

I could go on and on with the examples. What it comes down to is that people are people. Some choose to be paragons of whatever discipline or group they choose to associate themselves with and others will always be the dregs with whatever degree, rank, certificate, PhD, they have attained.

[bcullen]

Good posts Kwan and Anything. :)

Are BB better people? On all occasions, no. MA and academic pursuits do put you in touch with people that are looking to better themselves. So are BB some how superior to the rest of humanity, no. More motivated, yes.

I can say for sure that since I became involved with MA again I have become a better person on all levels. One of the contributing reasons is understanding the respect line. It goes both ways and is not limited to just bowing or other traditions. The senior students set the standards of training whether they realize it or not. Instructors are too far away in a junior belts eyes, but, a senior belt is closer and much more attainable. Make no mistake, they are watching you. If you come in and train half-hearted, so will they. Don't just show up, show up and give them something to aspire to.

[Din]

i think showing respect to one another is ok but not going overboard. things like bowing to each other is good as it teaches humility regardless of rank. but i dont agree with the shaking of the student situation or having to do push ups when you have a valid reason for being late. and no being a black belt does not make one a better person.

[Epsilon]

Are BB better people, no! they should learn how to be a better person.

1st thing I learned in the MA is respect and that carried me over the years.

In rank, yes you always respect the high ranking students, but that dosen't excuse of what that jack a$$ of a BB did to that yellow belt. I would personaly kicked that BB a$$ right then and infront of everybody. Nobody deserves to be treated like that and I don't care if he is a high ranking BB.

One thing I have to add, is for some apparent reason these day's, newbie BB have bigger ego's, that they could take on anybody? I guess HUMILITY should be learned before becoming a BB. But this is just my opinion!

[TigerAnsTKDLove]

well at my school we have to give our senior belts much respect but we don't get a whooping if we walk in front of them. senior belts are the same as any other belt and should be there for one reason to learn that m/a. the only main person you should give your full respect is to your instructor. plz do though respect your senior belts that is very important bow to em' or wutever. black belts are normal average people accept they have a black strap around em' nothing big.... everyone should be respected no matter the belt rank.

[stratiotes]

In our school we are expected to respect seniors, but in the advance classes, we are reminded to show respect to lower ranks, and when sparring, to use our knowledge and skill to teach the lower belts rather than 'beating' them with it. I've never been treated disrespectfully by any high rank at our school. Many of the black belts refer to even white belts as "sir", and treat everyone equally.

Though one of the tenets is respect instructors and seniors, you also must remember to have "coutesy" and integrity.

Our senior black belts are harder on the higher ranks, because they are supposed to be setting an example. For example in a kids class one day, in a point match, two black belts were sparring. The judge (an instructor) called the winning point. The other boy said "That's bull!!!" as he walked off. The instructor made him come out in front of everyone, say the tenets of taekwondo, and do pushups. I think that was only right though, the kid showed bad attitude and set bad example for lower ranks.
There is a difference between showing disrespect, and just forgetting the 'rules'. For most new students, It's not so much they don't have respect, they just are in the process of learning proper ways to show it. They should maybe be corrected, but not punished or yelled at.

At my yellow belt test, i was so nervous about breaking this board, i forgot to bow to the instructor before i broke the board. Actually i felt bad because the whole time i was chambering the kick, he was saying "wait wait wait", but I guess i was just so nervous all i could think about was getting my foot through the board. He didn't punish me or anything, or even fail me. He just let me know i should always bow to show respect before i perform the technique, during testing. At that rank, if he would have jumped down my throat, i probably would have quit.

[Capt Ann]

This whole thread could be repeated for almost any field. Are Black-Belts better people? Are Doctors? Lawyers? Senators? Any field that requires years of training and dedication to achieve a level of profficiency that others recognize SHOULD produce character. I think that's what we're really discussing here: character is what earns respect, and the belt level SHOULD reflect a degree of character. Academic degrees, high political office, and high skill levels in professional athletics should all be accompanied by excellence in character, but we've all seen too many cases where that's just not the case.

Punchline: A black-belt won't necessarily have better character than a white belt (but he should).

Answer to the original Question: Is a black belt necessarily a "better" person? No. Every human being has worth just because God created them in His own image. No one is "better" than another in the sense of being "more valuable". Those who develop good character (some black belts, some not) will be "better" people, in the sense of being more deserving of admiration and respect, but they will still not be any more valuable.

The whole "bowing" thing reminds me a lot of saluting in the military. Saluting, like bowing, is a sign of mutual respect. The private salutes the general, but the general returns the salute to the private. Just like in the military (where I salute to show respect for the rank and accomplishment of the individual, even without knowing them), in the Dojang, I respect and honor the rank my fellow-students have achieved, and bow in greeting. In the military, it would be a significant breach of etiquette to fail to return a salute from a lower ranking person. Likewise, it would be incredibly rude for a senior student to fail to return a bow from a junior MA student. I have no respect for any instructor who demands a bow from a student, but fails to bow in return.

[blessed_samurai]

Hmmm...as far as I know, black belts tie their shoes the same as everyone else, they get up, get dressed and go to a job. They have to pay bills just like everyone else.

I don't know anyone that after receiving their black belt woke up the next day with super powers or a new disposition in life or suddenly changed the way they lived.

I'd have to say no that because you have a black belt does not make you a better person.

I'd have to say that black belts are simply just people with a dark belt on their hips.

[Furikuchan]

Here's an exercise that my judo sensei sometimes does...
Tori takes off his belt, hands it to uke. Uke holds at the middle of the belt, while tori fits in to throws using the end of the belt. It gets you to commit without landing on uke twenty million times.
The best part about this?
It teaches some great humility. The belt is just a belt. What you wear means nothing. (This applies to people under-ranked, too.) Your true rank is how you act. If you're a yellow belt that's underpromoted, or a black belt who was over-promoted, the same thing applies. The belt matters not, save to keep your jacket closed.

[taekwondobob]

i believe that it does make you a better person..but not in the sense that you're a god like figure.

i believe that, in reaching your black belt, you learn to become a more mature person, bettering yourself to be all you can be, thus being a "better person". i myself am a 2nd dan black belt, i dont hold myself as senior to others....just more experienced. At my tkd class, you dont have the whole "bow to your seniors, walk behind" etc. Its more along the lines of "respect others the way you wish to be respected". like someone has said earlier...i would hold more respect for the person who gives it their all, continues to better themselves even if they are already good and try to make themselves perfect, then some snobbish little runt who wears a black belt. This is the case at my class, where there is a small red belt child, and a 1st dan black belt who is my age. The red belt shows more respect to me, and more respect to the art of taekwondo then the 1st dan does. For this reason, i have higher respect for the red belt.

in my eyes...belt means nothing when it comes to who you are...it's just a mere ranking of your level of achievement in taekwondo, and sometimes not even that (mcdojo's). People who take it like black belt = god, are idiots lol

anywho...i've ranted n enough...peace out

and eat cheese :D

[BOOBTOOB2002]

No, being a black belt does not make you a better person. Following the tenets of most martial arts will, but not all black belts do, which is a shame.

When I am teaching, I try to be nice to the kids, but if they act up to much, then I do become somewhat mean. The example originally given in this thread was ridiculous though. I would be so cruel to a color belt. The only time I inflict pain on anyone (other than sparring) is when I teach or practice self defense with the black belts, and that is only so they know what it feels like and build endurance.

[tommy]

Are BB's better people? Well I would hope that they are better people than they were BEFORE they were BB's. I think it is all about the individual. One of the reasons we train (speak for myself here..sorry) is to become a better person as it relates to character.

Respect ? I think it is very important for the jr ranks to pay respects to the seniors...however, it is MORE important for the senior ranks to show respect the jr ranks. A black belt needs to lead by example. I think the jr ranks learn about respect by being respected.

I think the BB that yanked that yellow belt handled the situation very badly...I also think the way it was handled by mmfiter was poorly done...by threatning violence...?? Beating the crap out of him?

He should have been asked perhaps WHY he treated that yellowe belt like that and embarrassed him. What purpose was served. As it is now, the two of you don't make eye contact...what good is that? Black Belts are all still in a learning process. We have ettiquette problems too in our dojo, but as in a family it is talked out so going forward there is not animosity.

Not trying to be too preachy here...sorry if it sounds that way. Just my opinion.

[tommy]

Hmmm...as far as I know, black belts tie their shoes the same as everyone else, they get up, get dressed and go to a job. They have to pay bills just like everyone else.

I don't know anyone that after receiving their black belt woke up the next day with super powers or a new disposition in life or suddenly changed the way they lived.

I'd have to say no that because you have a black belt does not make you a better person.

I'd have to say that black belts are simply just people with a dark belt on their hips.

Sam...I believe a Black Belt has certain responsibilities...with that you need to try and become a better person. I think when you acheive this, there is a certian sense of at least trying to be a better person. Of course there are countless examples of arrogance in the arts. Once agaain it comes down to a combination of good instruction and serious reflection from the student.

Does one autimatically become a better person BECAUSE of being a BB. NO....One's character is hopefully improved through the process of acheiveing the BB

[taekwondobob]

by me saying it "makes you a better person", im talking about spiritually

think the vibes man, the vibes :D

[ap Oweyn]

I wish it made you a better person. But regrettably that depends a great deal on the person. Too many factors to elucidate here (even if I did understand them all). But there are too many cases of black belt child molestors and the like to believe that a black belt makes you a better person. A solid moral framework can definitely help. But it's not a done deal.


Stuart

[Kwajman]

Well I think it should, those in society who are "accomplished" should strive to be a better person in their own lives, examples for others.

[ap Oweyn]

Well I think it should, those in society who are "accomplished" should strive to be a better person in their own lives, examples for others.

Sure, but everybody SHOULD strive to be a better person. Aspirational ethics aren't particular to our hobby.

[Krazy5051]

You are in a position of more knowledge (in the eyes of your club) and so hold more responsibility. You must set example, assist and teach whilst keeping the values of the art and club at the forefront of all your teaching.

For the past few years I have been ronin, i believe through no fault of my own. A recent example of black belt superiority being used wrong is when I attended a club and told them I had studied but had no experience of their type of club. I was put in with a group who had the basic grasp of the art, they showed me basic moves to get me started in sparring - unknown to them I had already 10 years of ma experience. When we sparred, I outdone them clearly. I then showed them some of my tips to better themselves in awareness and movement. The instructor then put me against a 'top boy' black belt. This boy was wanting royal treatment and had all the wrong values to be accompanying his glorious black belt. After telling me some 'rules' of how to treat the black belts in the class he challenged me to spar him in exhibiton of the class... he was 'royally put on his ass' by a few basic Wing Chun moves (not even my main focus art) but I felt it appropriate to his movements. I attended that club for a further few weeks where the members looked to me for help and said they enjoyed the club alot more. The black belt boy stays away and as far as I know, stays silent. I've since left that club and moved on. Alot of people lose sight of true martial arts, it is indeed a fighting orientated method of learning - but what comes with it is so much more. It saddens me that people abuse their position. There are the good, but the good are few.

Yours in martial arts,

Kid

[ap Oweyn]

You are in a position of more knowledge (in the eyes of your club) and so hold more responsibility. You must set example, assist and teach whilst keeping the values of the art and club at the forefront of all your teaching.

For the past few years I have been ronin, i believe through no fault of my own. A recent example of black belt superiority being used wrong is when I attended a club and told them I had studied but had no experience of their type of club. I was put in with a group who had the basic grasp of the art, they showed me basic moves to get me started in sparring - unknown to them I had already 10 years of ma experience. When we sparred, I outdone them clearly. I then showed them some of my tips to better themselves in awareness and movement. The instructor then put me against a 'top boy' black belt. This boy was wanting royal treatment and had all the wrong values to be accompanying his glorious black belt. After telling me some 'rules' of how to treat the black belts in the class he challenged me to spar him in exhibiton of the class... he was 'royally put on his ass' by a few basic Wing Chun moves (not even my main focus art) but I felt it appropriate to his movements. I attended that club for a further few weeks where the members looked to me for help and said they enjoyed the club alot more. The black belt boy stays away and as far as I know, stays silent. I've since left that club and moved on. Alot of people lose sight of true martial arts, it is indeed a fighting orientated method of learning - but what comes with it is so much more. It saddens me that people abuse their position. There are the good, but the good are few.

Yours in martial arts,

Kid

I think it would have been a lot more courteous of you not to undermine their organized practice and to bring your own ideas in at a more appropriate time. They handled it poorly. But you, with your 10 years of experience, handled it poorly as well in my opinion.


Stuart

[Krazy5051]

...So you think I should have allowed them to continue their practice without my input? Even though their practice was flawed?

Yours in martial arts,

Kid

[MarioBro]

...So you think I should have allowed them to continue their practice without my input? Even though their practice was flawed?

Yours in martial arts,

Kid
And you say that the kid you sparred was arrogant? Wow..

[redsandpalm]

If I attended a different school teaching a different style to the one I know, regardless of my MA background, I would abide by the rules of that school and not throw my weight around. Maybe during training breaks etc. I might discuss various points of difference, but even then with respect.
I've had people coming into class with various MA backgrounds, not doing what their told. If it's a genuine mistake due to years of doing something differently that's one thing, but if they have no interest in learning what is being taught in a given class it does annoy me.

[Spongie]

...if they have no interest in learning what is being taught in a given class it does annoy me.
Agreed, it makes you wonder what exactly they've come to the class for, if not to learn.....

[ap Oweyn]

...So you think I should have allowed them to continue their practice without my input? Even though their practice was flawed?

I think you went in there under false pretenses. If you went in supposedly to learn what it was they have to offer, but you spent the lion's share of your time telling them how flawed they are, then you committed a deception. Or at the very least tactlessness.

And I don't bring it up to come down on you. I'm telling you that while they handled it badly, you got that ball rolling. It's simple cause and effect. You go out of your way to embarrass them, so they make a stupid mistake in reaction.

Introducing new ideas to a group looking for new ideas is one thing. Subverting the ideas of an existing group under the pretense of wanting to learn from them is another.

There are ways to do these things. I think you chose the one guaranteed to elicit a bad response.


Stuart

[Spongie]

There are ways to do these things. I think you chose the one guaranteed to elicit a bad response.
Hafta agree on this one.

On a more positive note, I have a relevant example from last night's class. My instructor had to leave early, so I and another black belt from a different centre ran the last part of the lesson. At the end, I tried to get him to take the bow to the instructor, as the senior belt present (we're the same grade, but I graded only two months ago, whereas he was awarded his belt 18 months before me) but he refused, saying it wasn't his centre. I couldn't fault his stance (it's what I would've said, in his position) but made sure to call the bow to him as my senior, immediately afterwards.

[Dusky]

I know exactly what your talking about. We had an instructor come in straight from Korea for a couple weeks, I dont remember specificly at what level this guy was at, bit it was damn high, higher then any of the instructors at our school. Anyways, I came in late one day because of a football game, I came in running through the door and I forgot to bow. After I walked out of the change room he got a staff and started smacking me around with it , I know this sounds weird but it happened believe it or not. I couldnt do anything about it, I just had to stand there and take the beating, by the end I was rolling around on the ground in pain. None of the instructors stepped in to intervene, they just stood there. I was about 14 at the time and I know I should have bowed, I wouldnt have complained about pushups or laps or anything, but a beating with a staff? I think thats going too far.


I think this is a shocking story!!
I hold respect for the instructors and Blackblack at our school purely because they hold respect for me! If anybody hit me with a stick I would walk away and then have them charged with assault!
I love and very grateful in receiving this knowledge and training from my instructors and treat them with the upmost respect but as a adult 9th Gup
I do know my rights! and after all I am paying for this knowledge.
If a blackbelt is worn it should be deservered, in ALL aspects, and should be used in instructing spritually and not for bullying!
I think there are two types of black belts -
(1) when out in public, and plain clothes you don't know this person is a black belt. (Deserved - better person)
(2) when out in public, and plain clothes this one can't wait to tell anybody who listens that he or she is a black belt. (Not deserved - Bully)

My son has also just started Taekwondo and if any instrustors physically or mentally harmed him. I would use the bloody stick on them!!

I hope you haven't been scarred by this experience!

[baubin2]

Hmmm.... I must say, this is one of the reasons I like my class, and indeed, my style as well. Because if anything, all the black belts I have met are MORE polite to others than juniors tend to be. Not that anyone is intending disrespect, but the longer you study, the more ingrained the habit is, so the more polite you are.

Some examples. Our school is fairly lax with etiquette (the instructors see no need to come down hard unless problems start to occur, which they very rarely do), so whenever we interact with people from other schools, especially visiting instructors/masters, we are usually given a small lecture on etiquette, just as a reminder to act a little more formal than we normally do during class. But every time I have encountered other students and instructors from other schools, they have always treated me with as much respect as I gave them, despite the fact that some of these people were very high ranking masters (7th degree, 8th degree, even met the grand master once) and I was only a blue belt. They called me ma'am as often as I called them sir/ma'am and were always very friendly, open, and approachable. I'm not saying every black belt in kuk sool is this way of course, I'm sure we have our fair share of rude black belts. But at least I haven't met them yet :)

I like the way one of my instructors put it best on our class forum, back when he first put it up. He said that neither he nor the other instructors were the ultimate authority on kuk sool, that they just knew more than we did. If we felt they were wrong on something, we'd be free to challenge their opinions. And please don't bow or call him sir outside class. Which nobody really does. Which makes everybody happy :)

Edited to add: And one bad example I just remembered. One of the instructors when I was a white belt (she has since moved away :() once told me the story of how she joined the club. She said that she was brand new (not even in uniform yet) and she was coming in on her 2nd or 3rd day, and she forgot to bow at the entrance. Well big deal. I forgot a lot when I was new too. But apparently someone got in her face about it and was very nasty, despite the fact that her new-ness was obvious, and after that, she didn't come back for a semester. Only came back that spring because her friends pushed her into it. But even though I only knew her for a few months before she left, to this day I'm still glad she decided to come back :D

[Jesh]

Yup, same here. When 2 different ranked people spar, or whatever, they BOTH bow to eachother, regardless of who's what rank.

That's exactly how I feel. It has to do with respect for the opponent, not his/her rank.

[Davey Bones]

http://www.manabimasho.com/

Need we say more about whether or not black belts make good people?

[karate P.belt 2]

the belt system wasn't used till they brought it to america because we wanted proof of being a good MAist if I'm remembering correctly back then before belts skill detirmined it so you can not say a belt makes a better person and additionally there are A-holes that think their supperior to everyone in the world cause of their achievments and/or rank and I personally would rather learn from a white-belt who has the right idea than those guys

[Carly_TKD]

I hate being treated differently. My instructor insists that the senior member should be called miss/sir or addressed as miss jones etc but i just let all the junior grades call me by my first name. I hate the sense of power, i like to think that any of the junior grades could come up to me and ask for help any time they need it, without being intimidated.

[dbmasters]

Interesting thread, what I read of it anyway.

Where I train we don't bow or anything, but respect is given none-the-less. Therefore, I am not used to the whole bowing thing. At one point I went to my friends dojo (we wanted to check out each others place) and they bowed walking in, leaving, bowed to black belt, upper belt, etc...when going to get a drink of water they line up in belt rank...it's really the weirdest thing I have ever seen, though I know it's common, it seems weird to me due to the more informal nature I am used to.

I have nothing but the utmost respect for my instructor, but then, I have nothing but respect for anybody who hasn't directly shown me they don't deserve it...

not sure if I was trying to make a point with this post or not...

[builder777]

Are BB's better people?
Hmmm...
IMHO
The Black Belt was just like getting the bachelors degree at the University.
It was a goal, yes, a milestone, yes, a process mostly.
Does having a B.A or a Bachelor of Science make one a better person?

No, not in and of itself.

And, there's still the Masters degree and the Doctorate and one could still be a horrible person, a bad potatoe despite all attempts at education...

I just checked on eBay, you can get a black belt and a BB martial art certificate, for under 20 bucks delivered.

The school i'm in now has no belts, and it does not recognize ranking from other schools. You get no sash when you start. There's no uniforms (well black sweat pants and black or white tee shirts are standard attire).
I told my sifu years ago, when i first started there, i'm not interested in belts, or tests or tournaments, i just want to learn these techniques. It's a small school, we observe ettiquette, and people show respect, but there are no punishments (training is punishment/reward enough?). I've learned a few techniques...

Some people like colored sashes, no one wears them to classes though...

I think the only thing that makes one a better person, is, being a better person.

[GeeMac]

"The belt doesn't make the man. The man makes the belt."

[DEATHskull]

I want a pink belt like Gene Lebell.

[Unisonus]

It is customary to challenge a school's senior student, and its master. It is a good way to gauge a school's value. Perhaps things are different these days.

[Timmy Boy]

Has anyone ever noticed that the martial artists who tell you you should have humility are often the same martial artists that make you fold their gis, call them official titles, and generally kowtow to them just for the sake of it?

[pgm316]

The school i'm in now has no belts, and it does not recognize ranking from other schools. You get no sash when you start. There's no uniforms (well black sweat pants and black or white tee shirts are standard attire).
I told my sifu years ago, when i first started there, i'm not interested in belts, or tests or tournaments, i just want to learn these techniques. It's a small school, we observe ettiquette, and people show respect, but there are no punishments (training is punishment/reward enough?). I've learned a few techniques...


I think its a better person that can train without all the trimings of belts and certificates. Many BB's do it for all the wrong reasons :rolleyes:

[beky_boo8]

I think the training you are put through makes you stronger physically and mentaly and gives you more self confidence, it did for me anyway. It made me feel better but i dont know if it makes me a better person.

[prowla]

MA is about mutual respect.

I'm a 1st kyu, and not so long ago I said to the head of our organisation that I was not happy at all about the way something had gone. He could've said "sod off - you're a nobody", but instead took the time to talk it through with me in a non-confrontational manner. I respect him much more for that (and it actually had a bearing on me deciding to carry on the sport at all)!

One thing that we all need to rememember is that we are not serfs in medieval Japan/China/wherever, but free people in the modern world who choose to do MA because we enjoy it and want to better ourselves.

There are protocols to follow, but the idea of shouting somebody down because they walked in front of you, or beating them with a stick is absurd.

OTOH, I do think the warm up at the back and do 50 push-ups for arriving at class late is reasonable. (We've got one or two temporally challenged people at our class who regularly turn up at 5 or 10 past for the class. I'm sure if the class time was changed to 10 past, then they'd get there at 15 or 20 mins past! But they are also very good karateka. :))

[MDN]

How can an inanimate object, such as a belt, be a better person than a humanbeing?

[Lily]

The BB's I know are good people so I can only speak from my experience. They are committed, respectful, honourable people (though one has a bit to learn about teaching...).

I wouldn't say they are 'better people' but they definitely do have qualities and skills that everyone in our dojo aspire to and respect. But you could also say the same for non-BB's at our dojo.

I think its possible that many of us have some romanticised notions of what a BB should be like but when we apply these to the people we know it may not fit thus leading to disappointment, disillusionment etc.

Just some thoughts,
Lily

[MagikMike05]

does it make you a better person? it probably should, you should probably feel better about yourself, and treat others better, but i'm sure theres a ton of black belt jerks.

[ap Oweyn]

How can an inanimate object, such as a belt, be a better person than a humanbeing?
*groan* :rolleyes:

[firecoins]

a black belt has made me a better person but what really made me better was the whole black outfit which I got after years of training with Frank Dux. :)

[bcullen]

How can an inanimate object, such as a belt, be a better person than a humanbeing?

Haven't been around the messageboards long then? ;) :D