testing

[CJ]

I have been wondering this for awhile.
Why are there so many tests for black belt rankings.
This is not a bashing post I really wanted to know the answer to this.
And now that I am think about it are the color ranks done the same way.
thanks.

[psbn matt]

"Why are there so many tests for black belt rankings."
imo, it's partly to show commitment, partly to make sure everything is covered at least once during your testing year(s) and finale to make you work for your next promotion again and again and again so that you feel that you have earned it.

[CJ]

do you have to pay for each time or is it once lump some

[Wolf]

Just once.

[ember]

do you have to pay for each time or is it once lump some

The association fee is paid just once. Some schools may also have a small "paperwork" fee for each BB test. Since BB tests are no more than quarterly, that's easy enough to handle.

[ember]

When you start testing for black belt in Kuk Sool, you've generally learned about 1/2 to 2/3rds of the required curriculum. If you're in an area like I am where black belt testing is performed quarterly, it'll usually take at least 4-5 tests before you've learned all the material.

BB testing here is also a good opportunity to meet people from outside one's own dojang. A way to get to know people, make a few friends, and to be known. I don't necessarily remember all the Master's or SBN's names just because I see them in a demo. (I blame my BRAT heritage for not expecting to see people again, and therefore not needing to know names.) But when one of them is calling the test, they become much more memorable.

I have been wondering this for awhile.
Why are there so many tests for black belt rankings.
This is not a bashing post I really wanted to know the answer to this.
And now that I am think about it are the color ranks done the same way.
thanks.

[KSW_123]

Testing quarterly is awesome. That is when I get a chance to practice with some people that I otherwise wouldn't get a chance too. I see them at tournament, but we don't get to practice together.

[Choiyoungwoo]

I have been wondering this for awhile.
Why are there so many tests for black belt rankings.
This is not a bashing post I really wanted to know the answer to this.
And now that I am think about it are the color ranks done the same way.
thanks.
There can be some benefits to multi school testing. but......well the fee is the same so WKSA gets the same $ for 3 tests as they do for 8 so it's not the money. there is no technical reason that I can see. Test quality varies greatly but seems to be of no real concern. The process does put about half of your under belt testing under the control of the org or a rep of the org instead of your teacher, so it could be a power thing. Its a bit odd that a third degree with 15 years experience or even a master with 20+, who owns a school is not qualified to promote a student to black belt. I doesn't make much sense.

[You Won Hwa]

Its a bit odd that a third degree with 15 years experience or even a master with 20+, who owns a school is not qualified to promote a student to black belt.I thought the reason was to keep Kuk Sool Won unified, to maintain the same standards, to keep the curriculum pure.

[Choiyoungwoo]

I thought the reason was to keep Kuk Sool Won unified, to maintain the same standards, to keep the curriculum pure.

How is that accomplished by having multiple bb tests?

[You Won Hwa]

How is that accomplished by having multiple bb tests?The reason in school instructors can't promote students, KSN does, rather than the reason for multiple BB tests.

Multiple BB tests: Extended hazing? :D

[taescharnhorst]

Hello, regarding your question about testing fess and so fourth I would have to say that you are responsible for each rank testing fee. It seems to me that you are either a white belt or have never tested before? if this is the case keep in mind that you have to earn your belt and no amount of money will help you obtain it. Testing seems like a really scarry time but rest assured, you are not alone and you will be proving your abilities to the instructor/ other seniors. Hope I helped.

[Grippereeno]

On a testing thread i thought id just say i did my third bb test a few days ago with my instructor....We got beasted.

[Silentmonk]

The process does put about half of your under belt testing under the control of the org or a rep of the org instead of your teacher, so it could be a power thing. Its a bit odd that a third degree with 15 years experience or even a master with 20+, who owns a school is not qualified to promote a student to black belt. I doesn't make much sense.


This has been bought up before and I have thought about it a lot since then. 2 points do come up. These are yeah i totally agree with this now :eek: I mean my instructor not only took me for some of my Black Belt testings within our school he also did the national testings. Now as far as I'm aware he was given no specific testing sheet by anyone else so he tested me basically for all my tests (bar 3 and 1 of those was cos of a personal request to have another master test me who I wanted to test under) Now if he can test me and run national testings. Why can't he promote me. I have very little against the G.M. but I have to be honest given the choice between who i received my promotion off. It would have meant more receiving it from my instructor.

The second point I wondered about and I'm kinda wary about posting this cos it may cause aggro. Whats the deal with blackbelt promotions over in the states???? Does the G.M. have to be there for every promotion????? because its not quite like that over here :confused: I know of people who have been promoted and no representative from that side of the pond has been present. Admittedly they have been extenuating circumstances but if its possible then why isn't it always???

[psbn matt]

i think that being promoted at a tornament in front of massive crowds, a load of friends and a big bunch of high level b/belts, makes it a bigger and more of a special occasion than a class promotion would.

[Silentmonk]

i think that being promoted at a tornament in front of massive crowds, a load of friends and a big bunch of high level b/belts, makes it a bigger and more of a special occasion than a class promotion would.

True but most of the friends would be present at your promotion anyway if they were asked I'm sure. My instructor wasn't even allowed to walk me down to collect my belt. On any of my promotions. That just sucks to me!!! So he never took my belt off,and put my new one on. He never pinned my blackbelt badge on wasn't the first person to shake my hand. It just seems a little inpersonal to me.

I understand what you mean about the national promotions. I always said that i would have given my right arm to have walked out on Highbury as captain of Arsenal in the quarter finals of the European Cup just to have felt the atmosphere and all those people willing me to win. Cheering my name etc etc. Yeah would be an amazing feeling. But if the options were that or winning the European Cup and my dad who first taught me to play, handing it to me I know which i'd choose. If he could do it at Highbury in front of the crowd it would be perfect.I just think there are ways that a person who is instrumental in you actually achieving the position you are being involved :)

p.s. don't judge me too hard on the team of choice please :)

[Rhea]

it kind of sucks that your instructor wasn't allowed to do that for you, i think it would be an occasion for him as well as you.
I've been at some ceremonies for promotion now, including my friend's last one in KSW and I felt happy to be there. As well as proud of everyone that graded. I look forward to my next one.

[davefly76]

.

But if the options were that or winning the European Cup and my dad who first taught me to play, handing it to me I know which i'd choose. If he could do it at Highbury in front of the crowd it would be perfect.

why? is your dad the head of uefa?

edit: sorry monk :Angel:

[davefly76]

i understand what you mean by being promoted by your instructor silentmonk. you obviously have a huge amount of respect for him and rightly so but for a lot of people, me included, being promoted to bb is a massive achievement and want to share that moment of promotion with as many people as possible.

i'm sure i was led up to kuk sa nim by my instructor (wiz3k may be able to confirm:)) but all i was concentrating on was not tripping over the mats LOL

[Silentmonk]

i'm sure i was led up to kuk sa nim by my instructor (wiz3k may be able to confirm:)) but all i was concentrating on was not tripping over the mats LOL

Yeah but they have even stopped doing this now. Last tourny people were just called up like a production line. I used to love it when it was schools. The scottish lads would pipe their new black belts forward, it was great. Everyone shared in the moment but at the same time everyone got to say this is my family within the family and these are the people who made me. Now it just feels cold to me. I understand why to some degree they did it cos it takes ages and peoples backsides were getting numb. But there must be a better way around it. Come on Airnick make a programme that calculates the best way to promote blackbelts :D :D Its not like you do much at the mo. :D :D

[Choiyoungwoo]

i'm sure i was led up to kuk sa nim by my instructor

I would rather be led up to my instructor by one of my senior classmates. This is the part that i don't get ..............i mean it's nice that Kuk Sa nim is there but but this is an achievement that is primarily between student and teacher, but at the ceremony to commemorate the graduation, the teacher is all of a sudden irrelavent almost. it's as if the "tradition/protocol"was designed to circumvent the sun bae/hue bae relationship that has been developing the whole time.. at a time when it supposed to be solidifying into what should be a permanent bond, or at least a very strong and unique relationship that can be found nowhere else.

[You Won Hwa]

it's as if the "tradition/protocol"was designed to circumvent the sun bae/hue bae relationship that has been developing the whole time.. Student sun bae, teacher hue bae? What do those words mean?

[Jae Jah]

Maybe having your instructor bring you up to Kuk Sa Nim is suppose to start the relationship between you, your instructor, and the rest of the organization - symbolized through Kuk Sa Nim - instead of it being just between you and your instructor. The latter way seems to be leading towards break offs and factions.

[Choiyoungwoo]

Student sun bae, teacher hue bae? What do those words mean?
analogous to sempai / kohai in japanese

[Choiyoungwoo]

Maybe having your instructor bring you up to Kuk Sa Nim is suppose to start the relationship between you, your instructor, and the rest of the organization - symbolized through Kuk Sa Nim - instead of it being just between you and your instructor. The latter way seems to be leading towards break offs and factions.

That is known as "passing you up" to your instructors teacher, which is one of the highest honors, as your teacher sees you as worthy and capable of receiving his teachers teachings( some people see this as your teacher maybe not being capable of taking you further, but i don't believe that necessarily the case. i think that it is more a compliment/reward to the student for being capable of learning from a higher/highest master). This seems like it would require a close relationship before it could occur. and it would also require a premeditated agreement between your teacher and his teacher that he/she is willing to accept you. But to have it happen ceremoniously en mass seems a little odd.

[Jae Jah]

I meant it as symbolically connecting you to the organization. How its done, you're reminded that you're part of an entire organization that goes all the way to Kuk Sa Nim. If all promotions were done only in one school it would be a lot easier to get disconnected from the organization. Students would have an easier time mentally distancing themselves from the organization and the way it practices and teaches.

[ember]

I know I would, for all that my instructors are so cool. The hard part is choosing which of my senior classmates!

I know at Kingwood the promotees are still escorted, and it's usually someone from their school, but I don't know how it's decided who escorts whom.

I would rather be led up to my instructor by one of my senior classmates.

[Choiyoungwoo]

I meant it as symbolically connecting you to the organization. How its done, you're reminded that you're part of an entire organization that goes all the way to Kuk Sa Nim. If all promotions were done only in one school it would be a lot easier to get disconnected from the organization. Students would have an easier time mentally distancing themselves from the organization and the way it practices and teaches.
What is more important the org , or your school? So what if the student mentally distances themselves from the org!?! The school provides what the org practices and teaches. its through the school that the org "exsists" Wow, I find that frustrating to read. Its the schools that make the org. not the other way around. There is no "practicing and teaching" with out the schools. :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:
see how the"spell" manifests...

[You Won Hwa]

analogous to sempai / kohai in japaneseI speak very little Korean or Japanese!

http://www.aibudo.com/sem_koh/sem_koh.html

Brief review:
Kohai, someone who is outranked by someone else, and must serve Sempai,
Sempai, someone who outranks someone else, and gets served by Kohai,
Sensei, someone with more rank than all the others. (This website didn't specify, but in at least one system, this is a second dahn, a first dahn had no title.)
I gather that, equating to KSW, even a blue or red belt might be Sempai to white belt.

And I thought there was a lot of etiquitte rules in KSW! I suppose we have a tiny little echo of this with the dohn bos running around to put away the paddles and weapons.

[Choiyoungwoo]

I speak very little Korean or Japanese!

http://www.aibudo.com/sem_koh/sem_koh.html

Brief review:
Kohai, someone who is outranked by someone else, and must serve Sempai,
Sempai, someone who outranks someone else, and gets served by Kohai,
Sensei, someone with more rank than all the others. (This website didn't specify, but in at least one system, this is a second dahn, a first dahn had no title.)
I gather that, equating to KSW, even a blue or red belt might be Sempai to white belt.

And I thought there was a lot of etiquitte rules in KSW! I suppose we have a tiny little echo of this with the dohn bos running around to put away the paddles and weapons.

The problem in ksw with this is that it is not explicit. But it is assumed that everyone knows the hows and whys of this "traditional" practice. Which few westerners will ever completely accept.

[You Won Hwa]

But it is assumed that everyone knows the hows and whys of this "traditional" practice.Aside from freeing up the higher ranks from tedious duties like putting things away, so they can engage in more teaching and supervising, and offering respect to one's experiential elders, what hows and whys would there be?

[Choiyoungwoo]

Aside from freeing up the higher ranks from tedious duties like putting things away, so they can engage in more teaching and supervising, and offering respect to one's experiential elders, what hows and whys would there be?

Your example sounds like it comes from the limited perspective of the modern do-jang experience. In that same scenario should the senior not lead by example? in the event that what you say does occur for all the proper reasons....how does this appear to an uneducated third party, possibly a prospective student. It probably appears to be almost indentured servitude. If instructors are to align themselves with other professionals in stature and be regarded as such then they should not even ask thier best paitient/customer/student/client to clean up after service is rendered.
has your lawyer/doctor/cpa ever asked this of you?

[You Won Hwa]

Your example sounds like it comes from the limited perspective of the modern do-jang experience.I have remarkably little MA experience outside the modern do-jang. :)
In that same scenario should the senior not lead by example?They often do.
If instructors are to align themselves with other professionals in stature and be regarded as such then they should not even ask thier best paitient/customer/student/client to clean up after service is rendered.
has your lawyer/doctor/cpa ever asked this of you?As a student, I worked for my main mentor, doing his grunt work, better than he did it himself. He did pay me though. I probably wasn't his best student, but I may have been the most desperate.

Medical treatments require special knowledge to clean up after. Who would trust me to scrub their operating room, or throw away their needles? In many cases, after a proceedure, I wouldn't have been worth picking up a piece of paper off the floor. I don't see the analogy.

From some other perspective besides "the limited perspective of the modern do-jang experience," what hows and whys would there be?

BTW, On Wednesday, at two minutes and three seconds after 1:00 in the
morning, the time and date will be 01:02:03 04/05/06.

[Silentmonk]

BTW, On Wednesday, at two minutes and three seconds after 1:00 in the
morning, the time and date will be 01:02:03 04/05/06.

That only works in America!! In ENgland it will be 01:02:03 05/04/06 we have to wait another month. Damn you!!!! lol :D

[Silentmonk]

I meant it as symbolically connecting you to the organization. How its done, you're reminded that you're part of an entire organization that goes all the way to Kuk Sa Nim. If all promotions were done only in one school it would be a lot easier to get disconnected from the organization. Students would have an easier time mentally distancing themselves from the organization and the way it practices and teaches.

Have to be honest have received each of my certificates from the GM at national promotions.

Do i feel close to the organisation???? Not really.

Do i feel close to my instructor???? Yes very.

Is it my instructors name on my certifcate???? No

is it the WKSA???? YES

Personally I don't need to get my certificate handed to me by someone who has never seen me do even a single kick in training or testing<to know which organisation I hold ranking in. Who has no idea how far I have progressed, if at all. Yet still HAS to give my certificate and tell me to practice more, like I was suddenly going to stop because I had a new piece of card with some pretty writing on. :D

I doubt the organisation even knows when my birthday is, yeah actually it does it just doesn't care!!!!

Being close to an organisation is like being in a relationship. Its a 2 way thing! If one just doesn't care and puts in no effort then the other will go off and find something else that fullfills their need. Its being close to the Instructors that keep the organisation together or let it fall apart not being close to the organisation. But thats just my oppinion. :)

[Choiyoungwoo]

Being close to an organisation is like being in a relationship. Its a 2 way thing! If one just doesn't care and puts in no effort then the other will go off and find something else that fullfills their need. Its being close to the Instructors that keep the organisation together or let it fall apart not being close to the organisation. But thats just my oppinion. Yes it should be like being in a relationship I agree... and your whole post is dead on accurate.

I don't see the analogy. MA instructors are wanting the stigma of professionalisim. Which I think is great. But it is difficult to earn that title of professional when this cultural baggage gets in the way. this idea that someone who is outranked by someone else, and must serve is a good example of "baggage". In Korea/Japan it works as the culture there accepts it, maybe expects it. But in the west it will never be like that. But the would be "professional" instructors need to realize that this is one thing that will ultimately turn good students away. If the student is getting paid that's different. if they volunteer then its nice , but the instructor must be careful not to take advantage of the goodwill of the student. In many cases the teaches learns to "expect " it and this is where the resentment begins. This type of stuff is very much a part of TKMA/Traditional Orgs. It is up to the School owner to protect students from being exploited under the auspices of "being a loyal and dedicated jae jah"

[Jae Jah]

What is more important the org , or your school? So what if the student mentally distances themselves from the org!?! The school provides what the org practices and teaches. its through the school that the org "exsists" Wow, I find that frustrating to read. Its the schools that make the org. not the other way around. There is no "practicing and teaching" with out the schools. :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:
see how the"spell" manifests...

Both my school and my organization are important to me. I don't see a difference between the two, to be honest. To me they aren't two separate entities, one is the entire hand and the other the fingers, to use an old tired analogy. Without the schools, Kuk Sool Won would be a group of people who sat around and talked about what martial arts were. Without the organization, Kuk Sool would be a general term for people practicing something similar yet ultimately different and without cohesion.

Again, I didn't mean to insinuate that my school wasn't important to me, I'm sorry if you took it that way. But to answer your question of "So what if the student mentally distances themselves from the org!?!", mentally distancing myself from the organization hinders me from learning, because I am less likely to go to people outside of my school to learn. One of the things that attracted me to Kuk Sool was that it was an organization that followed the same syllabus in each school, and I could change locations and pick up where I left off. I also have instructors who all learned the same things at each belt, so I am able to receive instruction on the same topic from many people.

Please keep this conversation civil. I can take the ":bang:" and other comments many different ways, and they are all insulting, there's no reason for that and it doesn't help us have a discussion.

I am curious, do/did you practice Kuk Sool? Don't worry, I'm not going to dismiss what you say if the answer is "no," I'm just curious as to what your background is.

[Unknown Entity]

I've heard of some instructors in various Martial Arts including Kuk Sool unfortunately that do run there schools like a dictator ship. I've known of schools where the instructor sits at the back of the class smoking a cigarette barking orders at his students and belittling them at every opportunity.

Also heard of others that expect the students to basically run the school for them as well as pay for a class only to hold a pad while the instructor trains himself.....now correct me if I'm wrong but isnt the student paying to be trained???????

Also got a mate who trains in Karate who goes to 5 classes per week and the instructor makes him pay for every class then, teaches him nothing and expects him to teach every class for him. Subsequently my mate his since left.

It is sad that people like these are allowed to run a school as it does give the arts a bad reputation. Personally I think that schools should get monitored 3 times per year on how they run it, the way they conduct classes, student interaction etc. Testings are done by the GM to ensure quality in the students,,,,so should there not be a similar thing for school instructors?

[Jae Jah]

Being close to an organisation is like being in a relationship. Its a 2 way thing! If one just doesn't care and puts in no effort then the other will go off and find something else that fullfills their need. Its being close to the Instructors that keep the organisation together or let it fall apart not being close to the organisation. But thats just my oppinion. :)

I completely agree with this. I was trying to offer a reasoning of why the belt promotions are done the way they are. Its not even the official reasoning, just something I came up with on my own. Even if that is the reasoning they have, that doesn't necessarily mean it will work :). For me, it does help. Kuk Sa Nim and I have talked several times - though not terribly in depth as of yet - and it's nice to know that he knows who I am. The promotions are also a good reminder to me that there's an entire community out there if I need help. They may not mean that to everyone (anyone?) else, though.

[Jae Jah]

I've heard of some instructors in various Martial Arts including Kuk Sool unfortunately that do run there schools like a dictator ship. I've known of schools where the instructor sits at the back of the class smoking a cigarette barking orders at his students and belittling them at every opportunity.

Also heard of others that expect the students to basically run the school for them as well as pay for a class only to hold a pad while the instructor trains himself.....now correct me if I'm wrong but isnt the student paying to be trained???????

Also got a mate who trains in Karate who goes to 5 classes per week and the instructor makes him pay for every class then, teaches him nothing and expects him to teach every class for him. Subsequently my mate his since left.

It is sad that people like these are allowed to run a school as it does give the arts a bad reputation. Personally I think that schools should get monitored 3 times per year on how they run it, the way they conduct classes, student interaction etc. Testings are done by the GM to ensure quality in the students,,,,so should there not be a similar thing for school instructors?

That's horrible, I'm glad your friend left. There's no excuse for a martial arts school like that.

I really like your idea of monitoring the schools for instruction, I think that could help get rid of a lot of the bad schools out there. Preferably by improving them, not shutting them down.

[You Won Hwa]

Kuk Sa Nim and I have talked several times - though not terribly in depth as of yet - and it's nice to know that he knows who I am.Not to say Kuk Sa Nym does this, but people who meet a lot of people learn to treat everyone as if they fondly remember them from the last time they interacted.

[Silentmonk]

The promotions are also a good reminder to me that there's an entire community out there if I need help. They may not mean that to everyone (anyone?) else, though.

See its probably just different stand point again I think, on a whole from what i've seen on posts there is a differnce between the UK and US in the running of Kuk Sool. I would say on a whole the UK seems a lot more friendly and together. I don't need to go to a national grading to know that the entire community is out there cos I'm communicating with a great deal of it over here all the time. I know lots of instructors and students from many different schools throughout the UK. We chat regularly, we email, we phone, we train together. Its just not relevant to me I guess. Its probably the geography too I live smack bang in the middle of the highest concentration of schools in the UK i would say 80% of them, if not more are within 2 hours drive from my house. :)

[Silentmonk]

Not to say Kuk Sa Nym does this, but people who meet a lot of people learn to treat everyone as if they fondly remember them from the last time they interacted.

Well I must have been really rude then. Cos the last time I was anywhere near him I was trying to hand in a testing form and he just aggressively waved me away telling me to go practice for my testing. Funny had been practicing 9 years, (5 mins was going to make a big differnce) and been asked by another instructor to hand my form in. Was just waiting for him to finish a conversation with one of the masters before I interupted them. Another funny thing 5 mins earlier when i was handing over my money for my testing he was nothing but smiles and pleasantry. You have no idea how close i came to telling him to stick it. It was respect for my instructor who was sitting talking to him that i bit my tongue.

MANNERS COST NOTHING!!!!!!

[Unknown Entity]

See its probably just different stand point again I think, on a whole from what i've seen on posts there is a differnce between the UK and US in the running of Kuk Sool. I would say on a whole the UK seems a lot more friendly and together. I don't need to go to a national grading to know that the entire community is out there cos I'm communicating with a great deal of it over here all the time. I know lots of instructors and students from many different schools throughout the UK. We chat regularly, we email, we phone, we train together. Its just not relevant to me I guess. Its probably the geography too I live smack bang in the middle of the highest concentration of schools in the UK i would say 80% of them, if not more are within 2 hours drive from my house. :)

Have to agree with you Monk...I am in regular contact with Instructors and students from most schools in the UK...Personally I think this helps build a stronger relationship.

[psbn matt]

perhaps monk, he just dosen't like your face :D , or maybe he's been on here guesed who you are and knows you cross train :eek: your in for it know :D

[Silentmonk]

perhaps monk, he just dosen't like your face :D , or maybe he's been on here guesed who you are and knows you cross train :eek: your in for it know :D

But that assumes i give 2 flying f@@ks what he thinks. Cos i don't!!!! (oh god i hope your wrong about him reading this matt :D )

Seriously, I just have no time for people who are rude after accepting a nice big wad of money off you. Maybe its just a culture clash :D

[Unknown Entity]

I don't so much have a problem with Kuksanims manners....more his wife who has been nothing but rude and cheeky on the occasions I have met her. Remember once seeing her tell a yellow belt to stop what they were doing and open a door for her even though she had nothing in her hands and had no need for someone to open the door for her.

Kuksanim on teh other hand did once say to me not to bother opening the door for his wife on another occasion and said he would get it himself...lol..guess the old dog still likes to work his charm on the ladies...lol

[You Won Hwa]

maybe he's been on here...Well, the man has to do SOMETHING besides Kuk Sool Won. Would be interesting to know what. Gardening? Flower arranging? Watching television?

[Silentmonk]

Well, the man has to do SOMETHING besides Kuk Sool Won. Would be interesting to know what. Gardening? Flower arranging? Watching television?

Counting my money grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

lol :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[You Won Hwa]

Counting my moneyI heard Sa Mo Nym did that for him.

[Silentmonk]

I heard Sa Mo Nym did that for him.

Oh bugger there goes my theory :D

Actual truthful answer.............................. playing golf from what i've heard ;)

[Choiyoungwoo]

Both my school and my organization are important to me. I don't see a difference between the two, to be honest.

I think that is unfortunate, I agree that they are both important, but absolutely not one in the same.

To me they aren't two separate entities, one is the entire hand and the other the fingers, to use an old tired analogy.

Really?



Without the schools, Kuk Sool Won would be a group of people who sat around and talked about what martial arts were. Actually with out the schools WKSA wouldn't be at all. Without the organization, Kuk Sool would be a general term for people practicing something similar yet ultimately different and without cohesion. I am sorry but it already is, regardless of of the fact that it may appear to be the opposite

mentally distancing myself from the organization hinders me from learning, why , do they teach you? do they take the time to learn how best to help you become your best?
because I am less likely to go to people outside of my school to learn.

One of the things that attracted me to Kuk Sool was that it was an organization that followed the same syllabus in each school, and I could change locations and pick up where I left off.

< these two comments seem a little contradictory>




I am curious, do/did you practice Kuk Sool? Don't worry, I'm not going to dismiss what you say if the answer is "no," I'm just curious as to what your background is. No and Yes, I have studied a few TKMA, but mostly KSW.

[Jae Jah]

Not to say Kuk Sa Nym does this, but people who meet a lot of people learn to treat everyone as if they fondly remember them from the last time they interacted.

Very true, I've had occasion to deal with people who do that. You're right, its possible he's doing that, but he's mentioned or ask about previous things that we've discussed, so I don't think that's the case. I hope :).

[psbn matt]

But that assumes i give 2 flying f@@ks what he thinks. Cos i don't!!!! (oh god i hope your wrong about him reading this matt :D )



MANNERS COST NOTHING!!!!!!

calm down. :mad: chill :love:

[AirNick]

Very true, I've had occasion to deal with people who do that. You're right, its possible he's doing that, but he's mentioned or ask about previous things that we've discussed, so I don't think that's the case. I hope :).
Wow, you are lucky. I never get much out of him at all!

[Silentmonk]

calm down. :mad: chill :love:

Its ok now i took the lithium and have stpped the see-saw of emotions I feel nothing but love now :) :love: :love: :love: :love: :D

[You Won Hwa]

Quote:
One of the things that attracted me to Kuk Sool was that it was an organization that followed the same syllabus in each school, and I could change locations and pick up where I left off.

< these two comments seem a little contradictory>It isn't what attracted me to KSW, but I don't understand why that is contradictory. I thought that was one of the points, that all the schools taught the same thing at each belt level. Just take your pretty little card with you when you go visit another school, not that I've ever been asked for it. My belt seemed to be proof enough.

[psbn matt]

kuk sa nim said to me a few tornies ago, "good nak bub" refuring to the falling demo we had just done. also when he calls me over "london come here" he might not remember my name, but he does remember me, not bad as i only see him about twice a year.

[AirNick]

It's funny how peoples experiences differ eh? I have found Sa Mo Nim a lot easier to talk to in the past and have always got on with her.

[You Won Hwa]

I have found Sa Mo Nim a lot easier to talk to in the past and have always got on with her.Doesn't she speak English better? A common language helps relations.

I once had a significant other who spoke very little of my milk tongue, and vice versa. Language didn't seem to get in the way then, but the relationship didn't last long either. There were other, bigger problems, like geography.

[Choiyoungwoo]

It isn't what attracted me to KSW, but I don't understand why that is contradictory. I thought that was one of the points, that all the schools taught the same thing at each belt level. Just take your pretty little card with you when you go visit another school, not that I've ever been asked for it. My belt seemed to be proof enough.


because I am less likely to go to people outside of my school to learn.

One of the things that attracted me to Kuk Sool was that it was an organization that followed the same syllabus in each school, and I could change locations and pick up where I left off.
so the org makes you less likely to go to people outside your school and at the same time you are attracted to the oppourtunity to do just that??????
.
Anyway.......
.

Yes WKSA doesn't care which one you go to as long as you go as the result will be the same to them. But again consideration of the individual school owner/teacher is omitted. and it's ok to usurp the teacher/student relationship as long as it is in the name of KSW/WKSA. It's not ok to cross train in another MA, but if you want to go around your teacher and train directly with us that's ok. seems a little wierd

[ImaJayhawk]

Well, the man has to do SOMETHING besides Kuk Sool Won. Would be interesting to know what. Gardening? Flower arranging? Watching television?

http://www.kuksoolwoncl.com/content/images/Kuk_Sa_Nym_cropped_format_change_to_JPEG_High_Qual ity.jpg

[Unknown Entity]

Hell you'd think with the money he makes he could afford a decent pair of trainers...lol

[You Won Hwa]

It's not ok to cross train in another MA, but if you want to go around your teacher and train directly with us that's ok. seems a little wierdOh really? We get to do that? When? Do I need to bring my pretty little card? LOL.

Really, I don't see Kuk Sa Nym handing over a certificate any different than a college graduation. I knew who the president of my university was, I'd probably been in the same room with him, shook his hand. (He may not have cared about us as individuals, but he sure wanted US to know who HE was.) He probably didn't know me from Adam when my name was read and he handed me my diploma, (or rather the empty case I got to exchange for the REAL diploma.) My instructor in my area of speciality, and the ones in the broader area of study, will always mean more to me than the president of the university, and I'm still in contact with one of them. The students in my area of speciality will always hold a special place in my heart, even if I never see them again, although with the internet, they seem to pop up more and more. I expect to feel that same way about my KSW instructors and fellow students.

[ember]

Out of recognition of the fact that our society is a mobile one. It's not about being able to train at Pasadena, or Baytown, or Pearland. With respect to those who do, I like my school better.

I've been hearing recently that more people drop out of martial arts in young adulthood. The same story I hear at churches. But considering that that is also the time when most young adults are either starting jobs and living on their own (thus having less money to pay for training), or moving around in college, new jobs, etc, it makes sense to me.

I think I posted once, if I had known then what I know now... I wouldn't have needed to train in TKD in St. Louis, and Shotokan Karate in West Lafayette. I could have studied Kuk Sool in both, and been consistent no matter whether I was on internship or at school.

If there had been Kuk Sool near enough to my business trips in Connecticut and Alabama, I would have loved to be able to train there. And if I have things pegged right, You Won Hwa likes to train in Tulsa when she is visiting her family.

And then there's the story I heard at Tournament, of a DBN who started at U of I a long time back, then went to Chicago, then spent time in Europe (not training), and now is at South Austin.

In order to spend 20-30 years in the same art, you need a level of stability that most young adults don't have.

so the org makes you less likely to go to people outside your school and at the same time you are attracted to the oppourtunity to do just that??????
.
Anyway.......
.

Yes WKSA doesn't care which one you go to as long as you go as the result will be the same to them. But again consideration of the individual school owner/teacher is omitted. and it's ok to usurp the teacher/student relationship as long as it is in the name of KSW/WKSA. It's not ok to cross train in another MA, but if you want to go around your teacher and train directly with us that's ok. seems a little wierd

[Choiyoungwoo]

Really, I don't see Kuk Sa Nym handing over a certificate any different than a college graduation.

I am quite sure that is exactly how you are expected to see it.

I knew who the president of my university was, I'd probably been in the same room with him, shook his hand. (He may not have cared about us as individuals, but he sure wanted US to know who HE was.) He probably didn't know me from Adam when my name was read and he handed me my diploma, (or rather the empty case I got to exchange for the REAL diploma.) My instructor in my area of speciality, and the ones in the broader area of study, will always mean more to me than the president of the university, and I'm still in contact with one of them. The students in my area of speciality will always hold a special place in my heart, even if I never see them again, although with the internet, they seem to pop up more and more. I expect to feel that same way about my KSW instructors and fellow students.

The pres of you univ, the dean of your dept, and your teachers are all on the same payroll of one org. usually on the same campus. that is not the case in ksw where the lisc agree very loosely associates the member schools. Yor comparison is good, but the pres of the univ is not looking at you as a potential source of income usually, nor does he see you as "his" graduate. I get the impression that WKSA considers all ksw bb's to be "their" Black Belts.

[Jae Jah]

(numbers added)

1) I think that is unfortunate, I agree that they are both important, but absolutely not one in the same.

2) Really?

3) Actually with out the schools WKSA wouldn't be at all.

4) I am sorry but it already is, regardless of of the fact that it may appear to be the opposite

5) why , do they teach you? do they take the time to learn how best to help you become your best?

6) < these two comments seem a little contradictory>

7) No and Yes, I have studied a few TKMA, but mostly KSW.

1) A difference of opinion, I guess. Why is it "unfortunate"?

2) Yes. Not to be rude, but I wouldn't have said that if I didn't think it.

3) That was my point. I'm sorry if my description seemed otherwise.

4) You may be right to some degree. However, I think overall they are more cohesive than they would be if they did not have the WKSA.

5) Yes. I have received some very helpful instruction when I have gone to seminars, tournaments, when Kuk Sa Nim made his tour, and on other occasions.

6) The two comments seem contradictory because you are only looking at half of the first one. You also quoted it like this later on (post 61, please don't misquote me, thankfully I think it was a misunderstanding). The entire first comment was:

But to answer your question of "So what if the student mentally distances themselves from the org!?!", mentally distancing myself from the organization hinders me from learning, because I am less likely to go to people outside of my school to learn.

It was written to show why mentally distancing myself would be bad, because then I would be less likely to go to people outside of my school to train. It wasn't meant to say I am less likely to go outside of my school to train, I greatly enjoy going outside of my school to train. Sorry for any confusion.

7) Thank you for the information :), I'm new and still trying to figure out what is going on in this forum. It seems like a fun place, though.

Sorry for the odd way of replying. It was just a lot more convenient for me to put numbers in your post and answer that way.

[Choiyoungwoo]

1) A difference of opinion, I guess. Why is it "unfortunate"?

2) Yes. Not to be rude, but I wouldn't have said that if I didn't think it.

3) That was my point. I'm sorry if my description seemed otherwise.

4) You may be right to some degree. However, I think overall they are more cohesive than they would be if they did not have the WKSA.

5) Yes. I have received some very helpful instruction when I have gone to seminars, tournaments, when Kuk Sa Nim made his tour, and on other occasions.

6) The two comments seem contradictory because you are only looking at half of the first one. You also quoted it like this later on (post 61, please don't misquote me, thankfully I think it was a misunderstanding). The entire first comment was:

But to answer your question of "So what if the student mentally distances themselves from the org!?!", mentally distancing myself from the organization hinders me from learning, because I am less likely to go to people outside of my school to learn.

It was written to show why mentally distancing myself would be bad, because then I would be less likely to go to people outside of my school to train. It wasn't meant to say I am less likely to go outside of my school to train, I greatly enjoy going outside of my school to train. Sorry for any confusion.

7) Thank you for the information :), I'm new and still trying to figure out what is going on in this forum. It seems like a fun place, though.

Sorry for the odd way of replying. It was just a lot more convenient for me to put numbers in your post and answer that way.

please don't apologize, I really enjoy the exchange. I am not trying to challenge or change anyones mind. I am just presenting food for thought. :cool:

[Jae Jah]

please don't apologize, I really enjoy the exchange. I am not trying to challenge or change anyones mind. I am just presenting food for thought. :cool:

Thanks :). I really like exchanging ideas / viewpoints as well. As I said, I'm still new to the forum, so I'm trying to not offend people and start it off on the wrong foot.

[Wolf]

I think I posted once, if I had known then what I know now... I wouldn't have needed to train in TKD in St. Louis, and Shotokan Karate in West Lafayette. I could have studied Kuk Sool in both, and been consistent no matter whether I was on internship or at school.

Then you would have trained at the club I started at :D

[ember]

:D Oh, NOW you get the hints :D

Brian, too. We met in the band.

Then you would have trained at the club I started at :D

[You Won Hwa]

so the org makes you less likely to go to people outside your school and at the same time you are attracted to the oppourtunity to do just that??????These two quotes were from different people, which is why they seem contradictory. I seem to confuse a lot of people.

[Wolf]

:D Oh, NOW you get the hints :D

Brian, too. We met in the band.

It's a shame you didn't get to train there. The guy who ran the club while you were there is really good (PSBN Ben MacCall). The current club head (KSN Seth Hicks) is too. Overall it was a pretty fantastic club I thought.

[ember]

I actually showed up at one special Saturday "seminar" (not a Kuk Sa Nim thing) once, it was really interesting.

Brian graduated but didn't find a "real" job, so the co-rec fees for him got to be too much. I can well imagine how Baubin & AZeitung felt when they read the BB Testing fees, I'd have had a similar reaction. Things are easier with a career.

It's a shame you didn't get to train there. The guy who ran the club while you were there is really good (PSBN Ben MacCall). The current club head (KSN Seth Hicks) is too. Overall it was a pretty fantastic club I thought.

[ember]

I am not trying to challenge or change anyones mind. I am just presenting food for thought. :cool:

You do that a lot, I've noticed. Devil's advocate, or Socratic method. I kinda like that, it helps me think.

One of the first things my mentor in Indiana taught me, was to question everything, including the need to question everything.

[Choiyoungwoo]

You do that a lot, I've noticed. Devil's advocate, or Socratic method. I kinda like that, it helps me think.

One of the first things my mentor in Indiana taught me, was to question everything, including the need to question everything.

Thank you for saying so. I know I come off as a real Keiseki sometimes, but sometimes the bitter medicene heals the best!!

[ember]

You started out that way. Most of it got cleared up in the "KJN Harmon" thread. I think everyone gets out of whack once in a while, you'll notice I'm hardly immune!

Thank you for saying so. I know I come off as a real Keiseki sometimes, but sometimes the bitter medicene heals the best!!

[ember]

My school has a pretty good differentiation between "teaching time" and "student time" at the Dahn Bo level. If I'm at the beginner or intermediate classes, I'm there to help out. So running to put the targets away while the lead instructor gets the kids ready for the next activity is not a big deal.

In the advanced classes, the main time that sort of thing happens is when we've partnered up, and half the class is running to grab targets.

I can see there might sometimes be issues for the KSNs and PSBNs who occasionally wind up instructing the advanced classes, but that would be part of why there's now a Saturday class just for the 2nd degrees and up.

(BTW, This KSN = Kuk Sa Nim vs. Kyo Sa Nim bit can get real confusing if we aren't careful.)

We've talked a lot about it going both ways. It was a revelation to me when I started seeing the flip side of it. To realize that being a white belt (again) was in some respects a license to make mistakes, because I would not be expected to know all the ettiquette.

Your example sounds like it comes from the limited perspective of the modern do-jang experience. In that same scenario should the senior not lead by example? in the event that what you say does occur for all the proper reasons....how does this appear to an uneducated third party, possibly a prospective student. It probably appears to be almost indentured servitude. If instructors are to align themselves with other professionals in stature and be regarded as such then they should not even ask thier best paitient/customer/student/client to clean up after service is rendered.
has your lawyer/doctor/cpa ever asked this of you?

[Bahng Uh Ki]

Why are there so many tests for black belt rankings.I've been told it is so that students would not FAIL. If they did well, they would keep doing well, if they did... not so well, a bad test wouldn't set them back, but give them more to strive for. They have more than one opportunity to show what they are made of, to test their mettel. They aren't going to fail, and possibly quit, just because they had one bad day.

[ember]

i'm sure i was led up to kuk sa nim by my instructor (wiz3k may be able to confirm:)) but all i was concentrating on was not tripping over the mats LOL

Well, now I get it. Just trying to focus on doing the right stuff. It would help if they had the same list of names up front as they did in the back. It's awful strange to be lined up in one particular order, and called up in a different one.