wing chun kick blocks

[eagerbeaver]

hi guys,
here is a question from someone who is very interested and new to wing chun (3months) i came over from having been a newbie in kyokushinkai karate(1year)
i was very impressed with the power kyokushinkai kicks could generate when they were aimed at your quad muscles and also your head. i learnt some blocks in kyokushin to counter these kicks however i once witness someone break there arm blocking one in a tournament.

my question is as i am just starting out in wing chun are there blocks to effectively counter these heavy duty kicks? i read early on this forum or a similiar one that wing chun mainly focuses on hand combat and wanted to get other opions on how wing chun blocks power kicks (circular/round house) kick to the lower body or head.
cheers

[Saz]

As we say in Kyokushinkai, "better to break your arm than break your head" :D Welcome to MAP by the way

Can I just clarify something? You mean are there blocks in Wing Chun to counter the Kyokushin kicks correct? Or am I way off?

[Kof_Andy]

There are even stronger kicks to be fear than the kyokushinkai karate kicks, and thai kick would be one of them. Blocking is never a wise option in my opinion. Why block it when you dont have to? SImply evade it and counter, blocking is always my last choice. There are many kicks that will go through your defense no matter how you block it. If your not a 200 pound fighting machine than moving away might be better choice than blocking.;)

[Saz]

Originally posted by Kof_Andy
There are even stronger kicks to be fear than the kyokushinkai karate kicks, and thai kick would be one of them.

You've obviously never been on the receiving end of one. They're not something to be underestimated, and actually were derived from the Thai Kick, so are very similar. Hit someone in the right place with a kyokushin thigh kick, they're leg goes dead, they go down. The shock value of that is great fun to watch too.

SImply evade it and counter, blocking is always my last choice.

Its not always that stratighforward. If you are backed into a corner for example, or have objects behind you, you may not be able to evade and counter. Better to take a blow on your arm than on your head/face.

Anyway, back to the topic in question....

[tai-gip]

Actualy if you use wing chun blocks as intended it realy hurts the legs the "khan sao' for eg which is a tan sao and garn sao combined caused a big dint in my leg which is still there 10 years later
i had trained in karate/mauy thai/tkd etc when i went a met the instructor at his home i asked him pretty much the same question so he invited me to kick him as hard as i could aiming for his head so i did he asked me to just keep on kicking till i couldnt ....so i laid in seven round kicks and when i put my left leg down to stand on it i fell on the floor.......
in pain ........ there are a lot of block in most arts that hurt the incoming kick attack and it dosnt matter how hard someone kicks infact the harder the kick the more it hurts the attacker
or alternatively use a wing chun leg check by kicking the kick as it starts then follow on......
the whole point is any attack can be punished thats why its called self defense

[LilBunnyRabbit]

If the kick is hard enough and you try to stop it force against force it will either break or collapse the arm, the arm is simply weaker than the leg. If you're kicking for the head then you've not got the full power of the kick, making it easier to defend against, Tai, 'next time you might want to ask him if you can kick at his knee instead.

One way to do it is to redirect the kick, not pitting force against force but applying a new force at right angles to the trajectory. With some basic vector calculus you can check that applying a force at right angles to a mass's trajectory simply alters the angle it is travelling at, the idea in this case being to alter the angle so that you're not in the way, for example downwards or upwards for a swing kick, or sideways for a more linear kick.

[tai-gip]

ckd no offense but do you train in wing chun ?
Have you ever tried kicking at someone who blocks with a khan sao?
Where you there when i tried ?

I can generate a bit of power in my kicks i assure you and after i made sure he was actualy going to block them i really laid a couple in...

plus if the kick is stretched out and the block is positioned in front of the centre of the body making it supported ?

And i still have the dint in my leg .... so i happen to know without a doubt that it works...... you cant beat actual physical proof

[Kof_Andy]

Yeah Tai-grip, I suppose certain block vs certain kick can seriously disable the kicker. My old instructor said that to me before, " If you kick harder, i'll block harder" lol I end up with bruises all over my shin and swellon instep. I have to drag myself home that day.:D This is all debate tho, saying you do this and i'll do that. There is no such thing as truth in fighting, there is what works better for you and what dosent work for you. I still perfer evading for me tho. I'm 5'7 138, stronge calves mucles that provides me with great mobility. As for being corner or something, well that wont happen if I move right.:love:

[eagerbeaver]

thanks for the info guys this place is great. as i said i am very new to wing chun, and the same goes for kyokushin which i have seen a little bit more of. my primary reason for learning martial arts is self defense and was very particular in choosing the one the that would be right for me. as i have said i am just starting but in the process of looking at the wing chun instructional tapes i hand'nt seen any of the kind of kicks and subsequent blocks/defences against the power kicks directed ath the thigh you see in kyokushin and muaythai bouts.

[Sporran]

Wing Chun leg defences are typically left until late in the system, when you start to drill chi gerk, or leg clinging. (I don't like the term sticky legs much ... :) )

We tend to introduce it early, but basically when blocking leg kicks you use either bong gerk or yap gerk (Sometimes seen as tan gerk) - these techniques are exactly analogous to bong sau and tan sau, but use the legs.

The idea is to intercept the low kick before power is generated, and disrupt the opponents balance while entering into punching range. Extra kicks can be included in the step, often described as "kicking the post".

A less painful way is to use similar shapes with the legs but as stop kicks - kicking the kicker in the leg. It is a bit more tricky, but very effective.


If you are defending kicks to the upper region, the most important component is your entering footwork. If you stand idly by and try and block a hard kick with your arms, you're in for a world of hurt. Again, by intercepting the kick with footwork combined with an appropriate defensive structure, you gain the advantage.

I have kept much of this general, but can provide specifics if required.

Hope this helps.

[eagerbeaver]

thanks Bigrich, that was very informative.

[eagerbeaver]

could i indulge you guys with 2 more beginner type questions.

1) the wing chun straight punch from what i understand is delivered from the centreline and end with contact being made with the last two nuckles of the pinky and ring finger. as these two nuckles are smaller than the larger knuckles does'nt that result in a higher risk of fracture than a boxing puch connects with the larger knuckes?
2 ) in pak sau you push or deflect a punch away with the palm of your hand, for a beginner like with small hand therefore small palms it seems like a very difficult to connect with an opponents forearm/elbow region to deflect this blow. how effective is this block then? although as you could image my footwork is pretty non existent.

[Sporran]

No probs Beaver.
As for your next questions

1) Other lines than mine may vary, but we use the whole striking surface of the fist, but in practice it's your last three knuckles that are aligned with the forearm bones. This alignment connects your fist to your body, which is an important concept. The fist is the nail, the body the hammer.

If you imagine you are in a pressup position (or get down and do it) , and your fists are in contact with the ground in your typical vertical punch position. The surface of the last three knuckles that is in contact with the ground is the surface you would hit with. A good tip is to imagine you are focusing with your knuckle of the ring finger - doing this avoids "pinky punching".

2) As long as you occupy centreline, you won't need to worry about connecting - keep your elbow down and slap forwards towards his arm. While doing this, punch the bits that you can see / hit. Repeat until a bloody mess ensues. :)

Cheerio!:cool:

[masterfinger]

I found that entering inside the arc of the kick and turning toward the inside of the opponent causes the majority of the power to pass, as well as disrupts the kickers base causing him to fall or lose balance. Most people when kicking expect an evasion or blocking attempt rather than being rushed, so the suprise effect is a factor also. Just my two cents

[tai-gip]

eagerbeaver there are several variations of pak sao for eg defensive and attacking ...or defensive to attaking.... in a purely defensive pak sao you can block on the elbow or you can connect with the forearm wrist area it all depends on footwork and positioning. ..... in an attacking block you use footwork to move in on the punch and this is where you connect with the elbow straight away jamming the attack generating a lack of balance in the attacker and opening a window for a follow up combination.....
in a transition block it begins a defense and you contact the wrist forearm area then using footwork you progress till the pak contacts the elbow sort of like a boxing slip your just keep in contact so you can read through it where and what the next attack will be as per the sticky hands ...best training is to try with little kids because they dont use much force and is a lot harder to read what they will follow up with

[Sporran]

Pak sau to the wrist is a bit dangerous, as the attacker's forward pressure will allow the blocked punch to convert to an elbow strike by folding the arm over the pak sau.

However, as you mention positioning, if you are entering behind a passive pak sau to the wrist and flanking footwork, it can be workable. I find it to be kind of low percentage though. Still kinda invites the elbow.

[tai-gip]

And because your in contact with the writs you follow this and go to an arm lock/break

[tai-gip]

Thats why they call it chi sao the art is about making contact once you do the attacker is yours...:D at least that the way you train ala entry technique

[doctrdev]

An interesting topic!

Sure there are Wing Chun counters to those high-powered kicks, and rest assured there are counters to what the Wing Chun guy will do. It all boils down to the individual's ability, right? Well that's just my opinion... So assuming the Wing Chun practioner knows what he is doing, he would parry a low kick with a "sticking leg" technique or step out of the way...a high kick would be parried with the hands or, again, sidestep, close in, VERY CLOSE and hammer away as he ties your hands up...

Styles don't beat styles, individuals beat individuals, styles offer different tools to use. Just my $0.02...

Unless your style lets you use a Wing Chun block with a Thai kick..... ;-)

[Dragon800808]

Hi Guys,

I practiced Judo(4years), Taekwondo(2 years) and now doing Kung-Fu for about 6 months ....to intercept a kick it's very delicate, according to physics the only way you can win is to redirect the force and striking in , or , also you could disrupt the attacker by getting closer and applying a throw ( from Judo) and getting the opponent nailed to the floor ....
Anyhow hope this helps , later ...
Dragon

[CKava]

I realise Im a bit late in replying but it seemed an interesting topic so I thought Id throw in my opinion. I remember hearing from a very reliable (Wing Chun) sifu how in a good few Muay Thai vs. Wing Chun matches some Wing Chun practictioners had tried to block high, strong thai kicks with a tan sau (or something similar) and ended up with broken forearms for their trouble.

Dont get me wrong though Im not suggesting that Wing Chun has no defence against strong kicks, Im just suggesting that standing and allowing someone the time to build up the necessary momentum for a powerful kick doesnt seem very Wing Chun-y - its a bit like if someones swinging a ball and chain at you its a lot easier to stop the swing than try and block the ball. And Physics being as it is generally strong kicks tend to come in a sort of loose semi circular fashion but if your taking a straight line towards a target then you should arrive before someone whose taking a semi circular one. SO basically the time it takes someone to roundhouse kick shouldnt be spent preparing for a block but preventing the kick in the first place- where there's no contact go forward... and as for sidekicks or general straight kicks I would say Wing Chun leg blocks should have them covered (In theory off course).

[Mad-about-Bagua]

WingChun (WC) is primarily a close quartered Hand fighting technique but it's kicks ( only 8) are subtle and deadly.
WC doesn't believe in kicking to the head for the simple reason one doesn't bend down to attack a leg with one's hand.
All WC moves are designed for minimum movement, minimum distance, minimum efffort to generate maximum force. Most WC kicks don't go above the waist. WC is not an elegant style, all it's superfluous stylish moves are cutdown to leave behind a very efficient style that stresses "economy of motion"

Wing Chun blocks maybe summarised as follows:

1. Above waist kicks:
Tan Sau - Gan sau combination
Wu Sau- Bong Sau combination
Step back or
Step right into the attacked

2. Below waist kicks:
Counter front snap (low) kick
Raised Knee block followed by counter kick to shin/groin/thigh
Counter Kick to the inside or outside ( all low)
Step back or
Step right into the attacked

WC block allow for trapping an attacker's extended leg and causing him to fall


I had Karate /Taekwando. I'm in a position to make objective comparisons. IMHO the WingChun method to deal with kicks is far simpler, faster and more effective and less dngerous than Karate / Taekwondo blocks

Nowadays I also do BGZ ( Bagua), it's blocking methods are avoidance and yielding ...based on the Yin-Yang concept of " borrowing strength" from the attacker

[matreyia]

From my experience, I just do:
1. kwan sau with an angled advancing step and this completely neutralizes the round house to the ribs or head area while also displaces the attacker. A good kwan sau will automatically create protection for my centerline against the possibility of followup punches.

2. any low level kicks or spinning or fancy kicks are easily neutralized by attacking the hips with a well placed front kick. As long as I can see your body move, I will just kick you in the hips or base leg if I can.

3. Most difficult thing to do, but works if you can do it is to kick the leg that is actually heading towards you. It's hard to do because it is hard to decipher what angle the foot will come to you at. Use this method if you are sure and your opponent is really slow. Otherwise, it's kind of a gamble.

Of course there are very very good kickers out there from many arts that can kick you before you even realize that you were just hit. I know, cause I have sparred them and it's really scary. No matter how close they are, they can still kick you in the head if they want! So all you fellow WC practitioners, don't go around saying that TKD is too telegraphic, cause the good practitioners will kick you before you can even say Tae....
Best wishes and keep striving for your enlightment.

Viet :D

[Phil-Sao]

my question is as i am just starting out in wing chun are there blocks to effectively counter these heavy duty kicks? i read early on this forum or a similiar one that wing chun mainly focuses on hand combat and wanted to get other opions on how wing chun blocks power kicks (circular/round house) kick to the lower body or head.
cheers

Hi i'm new here.
I've been doing WC for the past year and a bit and previously did TKD for 2 1/2 years. I've never experience or seen a kyokushinkai kicks so i can't say for sure, but in my humble experience with power kicks that are circular i find that a quick staight snap kick or push kick to their knee, thigh or waist usually dissolves their attack before they can fully deliver their blow. Since my kick is straight and my opponents is kick is round, usually my kick would arrive first. This doens't say i fully rely on my kick dissolve their attack, i still use my arms to guard as a backup if my kick fails. Now i'm not saying that this technique will work everytime and against everyone (cos some people can kick damn fast) but if you train it well and get the timing right, it can be very effective against alot of people.

I my view i find it much better to be attacking whilst blocking rather than blocking then attack cos if your opponent keeps attacking you and you keep blocking then chances are that eventually you're gonna get hit.

cheers

[jimmytofu]

I realise Im a bit late in replying but it seemed an interesting topic so I thought Id throw in my opinion. I remember hearing from a very reliable (Wing Chun) sifu how in a good few Muay Thai vs. Wing Chun matches some Wing Chun practictioners had tried to block high, strong thai kicks with a tan sau (or something similar) and ended up with broken forearms for their trouble.


Some interesting tales here http://www.springtimesong.com/wcFighting.htm

[CKava]

I remember hearing from a very reliable (Wing Chun) sifu...Ironically jimmy that link you posted is the 'reliable sifu' I was referring to! Ray Van Raamsdonk in Victoria- a very well informed (and also very nice) man.

[Jinstar]

In Wing CHun, Im pretty sure you should defend and counter at the same time. eg, a pak sao and a straight punch should be performed simultaneouslly. And there is this thing kinda like chi sao but with the legs, I forgot what it was called. And when defending a kick, footwork is important too, its like trying to stop a swing, where do you what to stop a swing? when its right in the middle or at either one of its 2 ends? same principle with kicks, you either have to move in, or move out to minimize the damage, if its a side kick, move and snap back with a front kick ASAP (Groin or Solar Plexis).

btw, where do all you guy train WIng chun??

[CKava]

btw, where do all you guy train WIng chun??
Currently in London with the various other people in my halls who practice Wing Chun (and other things). Though I have mainly learnt in a school back in Belfast and I still train there everytime I go home.

Im hoping to start formal training again under Alan Orr at the end of this month (when I get some money :D).

[CFT]

Im hoping to start formal training again under Alan Orr at the end of this month (when I get some money :D).Phew, Alan has a very good reputation. You're lucky to be able to study with him, as I'm sure you appreciate.

I train at the Leicester YMCA with sifu Derek Frearson, or rather under his students since he concentrates on teaching Seven Step Praying Mantis now. I'm just a beginner .... still got lots to learn.

[Jinstar]

Im currently training in Melbourne Australia under sifu Phil Walker