WTF/ITF unification/cooperation?

[Artikon]

Okay this is starting to get interesting for you WTF and ITF people. The heads of the WTF and the North Korean ITF are constantly meeting. Chang Un, is now on the IOC and they are talking about the Koreas marching the opening ceremonies together as one Nation. See image below. What do you think the possibility of a re-unification of Korea and TKD is?

http://www.internationaltaekwon-dofederation.com/images/AgreementTKD.jpg

[Tosh]

Without getting on my political high horse, ;)


I see the ITF (led by Mr Chang Ung) completing the merger this time. It was after all General Choi's ultimate goal.

I say - yay! bout time...... now how about re-unifcation of the ITF??

:D :D :D :D :D

[Holgate]

It would be great to see the WTF and the ITF get back together as one, the split has done the art no good at all over the years, if anything it has heightened suspisions between the two factions where there is more than enough room for both.

As for the unification of Korea...basicly no chance, study the history between the two since 1945 and you'll realise it will never happen. Also it'll be a case of 'over the american governments dead bodies' the US have far too many vested interests in the region as a whole to allow 'Commies' to get in on the act. I'm afraid in Korea and the far east as a whole the Cold War is still very much alive and kicking.

Instead I think there will be more coporation between the North and the South with a possible small amount of free movement between the two countries, but that is ONLY if the current stand off comes to an end.

While the Korean War is still on (Yes it is still going on only a ceasefire was ever signed, no peace treaty has ever occured) then a reunification will be unlikely. And to be honest I think both sides are happy with their little bit of territory and arn't likely to push things much further.

Still we can hope

[Tosh]

Originally posted by Holgate

As for the unification of Korea...basicly no chance,


Nah! Course it'll happen just takes time....

.... plus a growing conviction that America is the real enemy! ;)

[Chazz]

I like the idea of the WTF and the ITF being one TKD. I just hope that it does not become one big sport. I liked the ITF's ideas of being more traditional and less of a sport but i have a feeling that if the become one tkd it will end up all tkd sport

[Holgate]

I would hope if the two do come together then they can use both aspects, the sporting and the traditional.

I would hate to see TKD lose it's traditional roots because after all you have to know your past to know where you are going, so I really hope the sport dosen't take over fully. There is room for both and I hope the room is made for them

[Tosh]

I'm optimistic I can see the sport changing to incorporate a fuller realisation of free sparring, but I'm sure that's a long way off!

In the meantime I go with Grandmaster Rhee Ki Ha's ideas - more of a gymnastic element with power tests being meseaured effectively!

what d'yall think?

[ubershock]

Ok, I know there are threads already catering to this issue, but they're a bit dead at the moment.

http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/Engnews/20070321/430100000020070321132908E6.html

Does anybody know more about the possible union of ITF and WTF?

I know its old news, and I've seen articles that date back to 2002, and there are probably more even before 2000. Has anyone heard if this is a big deal? Anything new? Or is it just pleasantries - ie, will nothing come of it?

If it does, does anybody look forward to it - because imo, putting the two together would be like mixing oil and water.

Nevertheless, I'm still hoping to see some developments. If they do end up joining, no doubt they will end up improving tkd in general - something along the lines of full contact, but less "sporty" sparring (but still fun as a standalone sport), less emphasis on demonstration kicks (as in demonstration purpose kicks - like the 720 hook kick...), modernised kicks (ITF back kick is a little obsolete - now called "spinning side kick" by WTFers, and replaced by WTF back kick) stuff like that. If they do intend to merge, and combine the best of both (hands up, modern kicks (but not sparring only kicks like the multiple round kick)) that would be awesome.

Any real news? Have you heard anyone talking about this?

EDIT: I reckon the least they could do is unite for the sake of it. Even if they don't combine and produce an all together "better" hybrid (because that would probably no longer be called tkd), if they do combine them, then they could teach ITF and WTF in the same dojang, a sort of Sport section, and Martial art section (a bit unrealistic hehe)

the least it would do is stop the distancing between "North Korean" taekwondo and "South Korean" taekwondo, and both would be more widely practised in both Koreas.



Anyway, the best thing would be a hybrid. There are things about both which I think make parts of them slightly obsolete or useless. Whereas in WTF, they teach techniques that will be used outside of sparring, the practitioners themselves are probably learning just for the sport - the patters, etc which they learn seem a bit null to me

In ITF, some of the kicks used have been nulled out by the WTF, since they are deemed obsolete.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIVTKYIZy2k&mode=related&search=

take that as an example - at 1 min 20, the black belt does a traditional reverse roundhouse, completely straight leg. Although he is of Kukkiwon standard (now considered best in S.K) he loses balance. That technique is not practised anymore in WTF (replaced by straight leg, then bent leg retraction - commonly seen in sparring), because of impracticality, but the ITF still use it. I think a carefully planned out hybrid would smooth out the kinks in both styles, and be more beneficial overall. If they are worried about losing money, the least a merger would do is bring in more students, right?

[neryo_tkd]

"The World Taekwondo Federation and the International Taekwon-Do Federation held their first meeting of the Coordination Committee for Taekwondo Integration in Beijing, China, on March 31, 2007.

The meeting is the results of a Mutual Agreement between WTF President Chungwon Choue and Mr. Ung Chang, president of the ITF, in Doha, Qatar, on Dec. 2, 2006. The two takwondo bodies held four rounds of working-level talks for the full-fledged meeting, with the first working-level talk taking place on June 27-28, 2005 in Beijing.

At the Beijing meeting, the Coordination Committee for Taekwondo Integration was officially formed, with Mr. Dai-soon Lee, vice president of the WTF, and Mr. Ryu Song-il, chairman of the Merger Committee of the ITF, as its co-chairmen.

For the talk, the WTF fielded a six-member delegation, led by Mr. Lee. The other delegates were WTF Secretary General Jin Suk Yang, Mr. Kyu-seok Lee, member of the WTF Council, Mr. Kyong-myong Lee, chairman of the WTF Education Committee; Mr. Manseek Choe, deputy secretary general of the WTF; and Mr. Seok-jae Kang, director of the WTF PR Division.

The ITF also sent a six-member contingent, headed by Mr. Ryu. The others were Mr. Ri Yong-son, executive director general of the ITF; Mr. Ro Yong-sok, chairman of the ITF Technical Committee; Mr. Anto Nobilo, member of the ITF Merger Committee; Mr. Won Se-yon, member of the ITF Technical Committee; and Mr. O Won-il, member of the ITF Merger Committee.

The two parties confirmed their respective positions on the mission, authority and operation procedures of the Coordination Committee for Taekwondo Integration.

Other than the exchange of materials related to taekwondo poomsae and kyorugi, both parties decided to deal with technical matters first, in the hope of producing tangible results.

The two parties also agreed to decide on the date and venue of the next meeting through consultations later with each other.

At the meeting, the WTF delegation also suggested its three basic principles as follows:
- The WTF respects the Olympic Charter and its regulations to embody the basic principles of the Olympic Movement.
- The WTF is committed to the development of taekwondo.
- The WTF respects the order and the rules and regulations of international sports federations.

In this regard, the WTF made it clear at the meeting that all the agreed matters at the Coordination Committee shall take effect upon approval of the two taekwondo federations’ highest decision-making bodies, such as the Executive Council and the General Assembly.

“It is important for the WTF to abide by the decision of its highest authority, the General Assembly. The approval process is also in line with the Dec. 2 Mutual Agreement stipulating the respect of the parties’ agreement on June 28, 2005,” said WTF Vice President Lee.

He said, “In the meantime, we will review the ITF’s partial set of materials on taekwondo poomsae and kyorugi, which we received in Beijing. Nonetheless, I wish to emphasize that we require the ITF’s full set of materials to better understand the differences between the WTF and the ITF, before we decide on the second meeting of the Coordination Committee.”

[Kwajman]

I guess it would depend on who controls all the money, that's the ultimate goal for both sides.

[ubershock]

WOAH what? someone just took my topic and shoved it into this one. My first sentence seems a bit stupid now. Haven't read this topic yet, I'm just gonna read what everyone's been saying

[Artikon]

It's because I'm a sponge and anything that seems close to my topics get absorbed.

Really I'm looking at gaining a monopoly here at MAP . . . if it wasn't for my laziness I would already have it.

[Kaizen-th3]

what about the other two branches of ITF that claim to be "the real ITF" ?

i think they all need to merge, i guess this is a step in that direction...

the whole "im spartacus!" thing seems ridiculous to me

i would like to see one TKD

bleh politics...will it effect my training? probably not :cool:

[TKDTraditional]

To quote Mark Twain, ""If man could be crossed with the cat, it would improve man but deteriorate the cat."


Now substitute WTF and ITF as you see fit.

[Artikon]

Honestly Taekwondo has become such a widely used term to describe a certain "art" that you will never see one TKD. I honestly have my doubts of any sort of reunification of WTF and ITF and even if that did occur you will still have multiple splinter groups.

You may as well ask all of karate to be under one federation. Simply won't happen.

[neryo_tkd]

yes, i agree with you. and i agree with what kwajman said, it's always about money. i remember reading an article about the potential unification of WTF and ITF and they had problems right there at the beginning of their meeting, because one side wanted one thing and the other side another.

[Liam Cullen]

You may as well ask all of karate to be under one federation. Simply won't happen.
Exactly what I was thinking.

Besides they'd have to change the name of the organisation. I don't see all the WTF guys starting to wear ITF doboks, with Adidas and people having to change the logos on their uniforms. And I also don't see all those ITF guys wanting to get rid of their doboks and belts with ITF writen on them.

[Alexander]

To be honest I'd be very suspicious of a merger. Just for the simple, petit yet probably ferocious issues that will inevitably flame up. Like, "How shall we spell Taekwon-Do/Taekwondo?"

[littlebadboy]

oh no... if the merge pushes through, my 2 years of going through the whole thing all over again to get a WTF blackbelt will be put to waste... dayem!

[neryo_tkd]

training cannot go to waste, regarding the black belt, a solution would have to be found, but don't worry, the merger won't happen one of these days.

[wmks shogun]

I agree with Artikon about comparing the ITF and WTF with different styles of Karate. I think at this point in time, we should realize that there are different styles of Taekwon-Do/Taekwondo and keep moving. If they did merge, which forms set would we use? Chang Hon? Palgwae? Taeguk? A new form set? Which sparring rules would we use? ITF, WTF, or a hybrid? And, as it was also put earlier.....Who gets the money?
I used to be in favor of a merger, but I have since come to the conclusion that it really does not matter one way or the other. 1) I am not directly affiliated with either, so it does not actually make any difference to me one way or the other and 2) Even if I was affiliated, people much higher up the totem pole would be making the decisions.

[miles]

This is from the South Korean newspaper Donga Ilbo:

Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 10:38:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: tkd net mailing list admin <tkdnet2003@yahoo.com>
Subject: tkd-net: Donga Ilbo, South Korea: North and South Korean Taekwondo
Heads Meet in Seoul

North and South Korean Taekwondo Heads Meet in Seoul

APRIL 09, 2007 07:17

Chang Ung from North Korea, president of the International Taekwondo
Federation and current member of the International Olympic Committee
met with Choue Chung-won, president of the World Taekwondo Federation
in Seoul on April 8. It is the first time that heads of the two major
Taekwondo organizations have come together in South Korea.

Chang has arrived in Seoul on April 6 with a North Korean exhibition
team and had a talk with Choue for about 40 minutes yesterday in the
WTF office in Samsung-dong, Seoul.

“It is my third visit to South Korea after the 2002 Busan Asian Games
and the 2003 Daegu Universiade. It is my first time in Seoul though,
so it seems that I’ve proceeded northwards,” said Chung, laughing.

When Choue said, “It won’t take long for me to visit Pyongyang (to
open a WTF branch),” regarding the ITF’s registration as a
corporation in the South, his North Korean counterpart answered, “It
will always be welcomed.”

Asked about the first meeting of the Coordination Committee for
Taekwondo Integration held by the end of last month in Beijing,
China, IOC Commissioner Chang said, “The talks for integration will
go into the details.” But not all of his remarks were optimistic.
“The North and South are only an hour distance by plane, but I still
have no idea how long the distance between the Taekwondo in the two
countries is.”

[JohnG]

I think if WTF & ITF do merge, you'll just get splinter groups forming claiming to be the 'Real' or 'Traditional' ITF or WTF, so we'll have even more different TKD's.

Imo, the merger is more to do with WTF an ITF becoming one sporting body. The ITF and WTF (Kukki styles) schools would remain the same, but there would be more people trying to get into the Olympics.

Merging the two to make one new martial art just isn't going to happen. How many of you would abandon your style to do a new hybrid, just becasue someone you've never met in a foreign country said so? It would end up like Karate or Kung Fu, with hundreds of off-shoots. No bad thing, progression of the art etc, but defeats the object, don't you think?

[Jambo]

From a simplistic political point of view - what do ITF (the body not the art) bring to the party?

WTF (the body not the art) have the Olympic mandate & the money that goes with it so what is the incentive for WTF to collaborate?

Please don't misinterperet this comment. It's is not intended to be a pop at ITF Taekwondo - I know many fine practioners of ITF and as a "different strand" of the same art it has many fine qualities. I am merely attempting to highlight what I believe to be a major stumbling block. In such merger attempts.

[ubershock]

Hmm. Well, it would supposedly tie relations between North Korean taekwondo and South Korean taekwondo. It would also braoden the whole association... and bring pride to the fact that taekwondo is going back to its roots? Have no idea. You raise a good point, but maybe its just a gesture of sorts. Unifications and its implications. I guess.

The ITF is pretty big too. Most South Koreans today practise WTF taekwondo as a sport only - joining the two would widen the appeal. Many South Koreans stop taekwondo at the age of ten or twelve, and later pick up a more "serious" martial art later on - perhaps hapkido. The only real thing I can think of is to broaden the appeal.

[Keon Thunder]

I think what ubershock says is the right idea. The whole tieing relations thing is what it should be about. I am affiliated with both ITF (UTA in UK-ITF) and WTF (BTCB) clubs and enjoy both immensely. I would hate to see a hybrid of the two, but little things bug me, like terminology - a walking stance is completely different in ITF, etc. Also, paying insurance for both organisations is a bit of a pain. I would love to be able to just walk in to any club, ITF or WTF, show one card and train. Therefore there are possible improvements which could benefit everyone. It would have to be done slowly I think as instructors will get annoyed with being dictated to and end up branching away. I'm sure the ITF clubs know what I mean as all the political problems I've heard about in the past almost made the whole organisation a mess.
I've heard that the ITF once thought about devising a process to allow WTF blackbelts to get an ITF blackbelt quicker, but I would rather see it stay how it is.
Basically, from an administration point of view only, it could be a very good thing. It would also be nice to see ITF instructors encouraging at least their blackbelts to visit seperately run WTF clubs and vice versa. This could be a vehicle for that. Obviously it would still allow the purists to choose not to, but that's their choice.

[GlassJaw]

Imo, the merger is more to do with WTF an ITF becoming one sporting body. The ITF and WTF (Kukki styles) schools would remain the same, but there would be more people trying to get into the Olympics.
I suspect that actual merger between the two is not a goal of either organization. Rather, I would think that what they are considering is probably more of a joint-operating agreement.

The only changes I could realistically see them proposing would be arrangements for inter-organizational coordination such as provisions for the mutual recognition of ranks and the combining of some services (and perhaps a few administrative functions). ITF and WTF would still retain their distinctive identities and forms. Competition rules would likely see changes, but they do that anyway.

But, most significantly, such an agreement would give these two organizations together almost unchallengeable authority over the development and definition of TKD worldwide. Some third-party TKD organizations could end up being marginalized out of existence.

While the venture might create more options within WTF and ITF, variety throughout the entire TKD world could well be diminished.

Dan

[Whysand-TKD]

As an ITF student, i would love to be able to compete in an olympic games. Saying this, the two variations of the art are so considerably different, is it worth sacrificing what you know to relearn some kind of hybrid? How would the new sparring work? Full contact or semi contact? There would be so many complications.

[Mitch]

As an ITF student, i would love to be able to compete in an olympic games. Saying this, the two variations of the art are so considerably different, is it worth sacrificing what you know to relearn some kind of hybrid? How would the new sparring work? Full contact or semi contact? There would be so many complications.

If you're TAGB (you've posted there so maybe?) you have the opportunity to compete in WTF comps if you wish, our guys are doing pretty well in the one's they've entered. Early days yet, but it's another opportunity if you want it :) There's no hybridisation, you just train for different rules sparring. :)

Mitch