Facing God

[Endeavor]

If sin brings death and we should be killed and die the due punishment, why do we insist on living like there is a tomorrow? If we lived like there was a real consequence for our actions (wheather legally appraised or not) ...we would be more sensitive to what we say and do?
x
If we deserve to die because of sin and don't deserve the gifts of health and fun that we have, why are we so unthankful for the blessings?
x
the answer is: BE THANKFUL!!! Everyone knows how hard life is, there are about 10 billion of the same stories you have about the hardships. What we should be thankful for is we dont suffer the due punishment for our transgressions. If you have a healthy kid, or you can see or walk, this isnt something youve gotten because of your vast efforts to better the world. Its a gift!
x
We should all be beaten and made fun of and spit upon and put to death by the things we have done. We no longer have to suffer this because Christ suffered this for us. So when we are down and depressed at least we arnt beaten, laughed at, spit on, and killed. We have another day to be our sinning selves again.
x
We will all face God in the end and our time is always ready, so be thankful because someone always has it worse than you, and if you are the one in the world who has it the worst, it could still get worse! For most of us the blessings are not appreciated until someone dies or gets sick or hurt, then we say hey I miss them or I shouldn't have acted so cold towards them, now they are gone. So be kind to all and your blessings will grow, we are all blessed even in our unthankful thoughts towards everyday.

[CosmicFish]

I believe the key word in the above is the word "if". But assuming that you're right, God seems to have created an enormous amount of pain, suffering and humiliation out of nothing, doesn't he?

[Endeavor]

If you love your children and they go out and steal the neighbors car do you punish your kids?
x
God doesnt bring the pains of the world, the devil does, God doesnt tempt any man, when a person is drawn away by their own lusts and fall to temptations, they sin.
x
temptation: you are married and a nice looking woman tries to manipulate you into a positon of an outside of marriage passion
x
lust: you are married and you search the internet for pictures of women
x
We have the rules, we break the rules, we dont always suffer for breaking the rules, we sometimes suffer when we havent done the crime. Pain is a part of this world, how fair it is, that's between everyone and God.
x
Death is considered the ultimant pain by the non-believer, yet the ultimant gain by the believer in their own passing. One falls like a thousand pieces the other feels like a thousand peaces.

[davefly76]

We will all face God in the end

says who?

:)

[CosmicFish]

If you love your children and they go out and steal the neighbors car do you punish your kids?
Interesting analogy. Sure I would, or better still bring them up with a sense of right and wrong so that they don't grow up to be the car-pinching types in the first place. Children have free will, but (IMO) it's an adult's responsibility to spend time with their kids shaping their personality so that they express their free will in creative rather than destructive ways.

To take your God / parent analogy one step further, God seems to be curiously negligent in this respect and should probably have been reported to the social services a long time ago.

God doesnt bring the pains of the world, the devil does, God doesnt tempt any man, when a person is drawn away by their own lusts and fall to temptations, they sin.
Firstly I should say I don't believe that God or the Devil actually exist, but for the purposes of this point I'll assume they do.

My understanding of God is that he created everything, including the Devil. So if the Devil is responsible for bringing the pains of the world then ultimately he's working according to God's design.

I have an analogy of my own for this one. It's like me whacking you over the head with a big stick and insisting you blame the stick, not me.

temptation: you are married and a nice looking woman tries to manipulate you into a positon of an outside of marriage passion
I don't understand your point here. :confused:

lust: you are married and you search the internet for pictures of women
Well I'm not married, but I'm in a comitted relationship with my girlfriend, I guess that's close enough. As far as searching the internet for pictures of women, I hate to shock you but we usually do that together. One of the perks of being in a relationship with a broad-minded kinky bisexual. :D

And I can assure you it leads to something far far removed from suffering. ;)

We have the rules, we break the rules, we dont always suffer for breaking the rules, we sometimes suffer when we havent done the crime. Pain is a part of this world, how fair it is, that's between everyone and God.
Sorry, I don't understand this either?

Death is considered the ultimant pain by the non-believer, yet the ultimant gain by the believer in their own passing. One falls like a thousand pieces the other feels like a thousand peaces.
Not so! Many atheists would rather die than live and suffer when the suffering becomes too strong. Moreover, even though my own position is agnostic, I'm personally suspect that the atheists have the right ideas about what happens after death.

If I come from nothing and go into nothing then what's so bad about it? I've only gone back into the state of nothingness that I came from. Now don't get me wrong, I don't want to die - thats one strong aversion that's been genetically programmed into me. But if I look at it dispassionately, I don't see death as the ultimate pain, but just the end of a rather confusing experience.

[Strafio]

If sin brings death and we should be killed and die the due punishment, why do we insist on living like there is a tomorrow?
If we deserve to die because of sin and don't deserve the gifts of health and fun that we have, why are we so unthankful for the blessings?
If this was the case then we'd have something to think about, but no one believes so. This idea of sin and punishment doesn't make sense to me.

If you love your children and they go out and steal the neighbors car do you punish your kids?
This is different. You teach them something, which might involve punishment, but it's ultimately designed for their benefit. The punishment God gives us? An eternity of suffering? That's completely different altogether. More of a sadistic revenge rather than a disciplinary punishment.

[ryanTKD]

I was, I am and I don't care.

[Endeavor]

Mr strafio, your assumption of people burning for eternity is found where in the Bible? Nowhere that's where.
x
Mr Fish, or Ms fish, Im not sure which, sorry. I see your point but if we followed the rules things would not be deserved. My parents spent time with me and didnt want me do anything wrong, yet I still played with fire and later lied to people and got in fights. The parent has responsibility to teach but the child must be responsible for their actions. God teaches us through the Bible and the laws and then it's our turn to obey or not.
x
Atheists dont want to die or they would kill themselves. Pain and suffering are rather wished to be resolved. Anyone that wants to die can eaisily do so, it is just a bluff in most cases, the reality of wanting death is suicide or attempted suicide. We think death may be better but we know we would rather have resolutions to our problems and we base this on our blessings, I want to die, but Ive got something to offer!
x
Mr davefly, the point of this tread is not to ask your religion, but to prod you to ask yourself what is important in life. Flying is fun and being in a nice car is fun, is that the fulfillment of your dreams. I dream about just being able to be seen as a good honest friend to people I havent even been around much. This reflects my religion and off line people inquire about deeper issues than the everyday sports and girls, but I love those things too :)

[thepunisher]

If sin brings death and we should be killed and die the due punishment, why do we insist on living like there is a tomorrow? If we lived like there was a real consequence for our actions (wheather legally appraised or not) ...we would be more sensitive to what we say and do?
x
If we deserve to die because of sin and don't deserve the gifts of health and fun that we have, why are we so unthankful for the blessings?
x
the answer is: BE THANKFUL!!! Everyone knows how hard life is, there are about 10 billion of the same stories you have about the hardships. What we should be thankful for is we dont suffer the due punishment for our transgressions. If you have a healthy kid, or you can see or walk, this isnt something youve gotten because of your vast efforts to better the world. Its a gift!
x
We should all be beaten and made fun of and spit upon and put to death by the things we have done. We no longer have to suffer this because Christ suffered this for us. So when we are down and depressed at least we arnt beaten, laughed at, spit on, and killed. We have another day to be our sinning selves again.
x
We will all face God in the end and our time is always ready, so be thankful because someone always has it worse than you, and if you are the one in the world who has it the worst, it could still get worse! For most of us the blessings are not appreciated until someone dies or gets sick or hurt, then we say hey I miss them or I shouldn't have acted so cold towards them, now they are gone. So be kind to all and your blessings will grow, we are all blessed even in our unthankful thoughts towards everyday.

Mind if I send this in an e-mail to Washington ? I wonder if GWB would be interested in knowing this. Especially about the We all face god in the end... part.

Christian

[thepunisher]

I
temptation: you are married and a nice looking woman tries to manipulate you into a positon of an outside of marriage passion

lust: you are married and you search the internet for pictures of women

Death is considered the ultimant pain by the non-believer, yet the ultimant gain by the believer in their own passing. One falls like a thousand pieces the other feels like a thousand peaces.

Endeavor, I have no idea what your point is with these threads. Lust is a normal human thing, in fact its something that determines whether or not you like or don't like your partner. If god wouldn't have wanted that, why is it something normal ? Concerning punishment: Do you think even the ones that believe in sin much care about whether they get punished after they die ? One reason you go for confession. Means you can commit a weeks worth of sin and then go to your priest and he tells you to do that-and-that and its over.

Concerning that internet thingy: So is it normal that priests look at child porn online ? What are they lusting after ? Seriously, this is absurd. I'm a person of god so when I die I go to heaven but any non-believer goes to hell. Who says ? Man, these religion threads are getting worse day by day.

Christian

[Blevunly]

Mr strafio, your assumption of people burning for eternity is found where in the Bible? Nowhere that's where.


Ever read Mark 3:29?

"But he that shall blaspeme agianst the Holy Ghost hath never forgivness, but is in danger of eternal damnation"

[Endeavor]

To be seperated from God is eternal damnation. where does it say you'll roast in flames?
x
Mr punisher, yes it is very bad if a priest looks at child porn, it is very bad if a kid looks at child porn, it is very bad if an atheist looks at child porn, it is very bad if a devil worshipper looks at child porn, you know its wrong, I know its wrong, the Bible tells us it is wrong! Hello?
x
Listen closly to my voice, or read closly to my writings. THE ACTIONS OF A PERSON AND THE DIRECTIONS ON HOW THEY ARE TO ACT ARE TWO SEPERATE THIINGS SOMETIMES.
x
Christians follow CHRIST, people who abuse power and are corrupt exist in politics, religion and every other place, schools, librarys, stores, etc..
If the Bible teaches not to lust and a person lusts they are acting contrary to the teachings. If a police officer swears to uphold the law and he speeds and runs through stop signs or re-sells drugs or tampers with evidence, there is corruption. How many times do I have to say it? The actions a man does and the teachings that tell him what he should do are not always the same.
x
God forgives sins, going to confession is a common ASSUMPTION that many have. We should confess our sins to each other to learn but we confess them to ourselves to the advantage of the cleansing of the spirit. We repent, and admit the transgressions to God who understands we are sinning humans.
x
Any non-believer goes to hell is your own words, you condemn people yourself, it is written "he to whom much is given much is expected and to whom little is given little is expected"
x
Two prayers to God. One man says Im good, I give my money to the church, and do this and do that. Another says "God have mercy on me a sinner!" The Bible plainly tells us the sinner is justifed because of their faith not their actions.
x
You have heard many assumptions about religion which are as gold in public but you dont know what the Bible says about such things, they actually agree with some things you say! You just have the problem of identifing religion by poor examples of religious people and poor examples of religious traditions not found in the Bible.

[Blevunly]

To be seperated from God is eternal damnation. where does it say you'll roast in flames?


The only damnation in the bible is hell

Matthew 23:33 "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?"

Matthew 5:22 "But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."

James 3:6 "And the tongue is a fire, a world of inquity: so is the tongue amoung our members, that it defileth the whole body, and settleth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell."

And those quotes refer to hell as a place of fire hence eternal damnation in fire.

[Strafio]

Mr strafio, your assumption of people burning for eternity is found where in the Bible? Nowhere that's where.
Your assumption that I used the word "burning" sure didn't come from my post! (read it again! ;)) There are passages in the Bible that describe hell as a place of burning (like the story of Lazarus, the rich man and Abraham) although they are probably metaphoric.

The usual Christian interpretation is that if after you die, you either stay with God or are eternally separated. (an eternity of suffering, usually implied to be the worst suffering possible) Are you saying that you don't believe in this interpretation?

[Saz]

Endeavor, I just did a search on your posts, and you've barely posted outside of Religion or Philosphy. There are other and better forums out there for soley religious discussion. This is a martial arts forum (which you don't even have listed in your profile).

[Strafio]

This is the best religious forum I've come across (although I've not exactly tasted a lot of them). Let people find their food for thought where they will! :)

[thepunisher]

Mr punisher, yes it is very bad if a priest looks at child porn, it is very bad if a kid looks at child porn, it is very bad if an atheist looks at child porn, it is very bad if a devil worshipper looks at child porn, you know its wrong, I know its wrong, the Bible tells us it is wrong! Hello?

Well, Endeavour, here comes a little mystery: Shouldn't a priest, who first thing knows lust is wrong, second thing lusting after children is wrong and thirdly knows he will go to hell for doing what he is doing not stop doing what he is doing ? And how come a normal man gets condemned for doing something like this and even goes on trial if a man of god seems to be able to do it without having to worry about a thing ? I heard the last pope prevented some priests, who were on child porn charges, from even going to trial. But guess thats okay, gods going to send them to hell anyways, right ? Or do the laws only apply to non-believers ?


God forgives sins, going to confession is a common ASSUMPTION that many have. We should confess our sins to each other to learn but we confess them to ourselves to the advantage of the cleansing of the spirit. We repent, and admit the transgressions to God who understands we are sinning humans.


So you go to confession to confess your sins and then afterwards do the same sins again ? Seems a pretty weird logic to me.

Christian

[tbubb1]

Shouldn't a priest, who first thing knows lust is wrong, second thing lusting after children is wrong and thirdly knows he will go to hell for doing what he is doing not stop doing what he is doing ? And how come a normal man gets condemned for doing something like this and even goes on trial if a man of god seems to be able to do it without having to worry about a thing ? I heard the last pope prevented some priests, who were on child porn charges, from even going to trial. But guess thats okay, gods going to send them to hell anyways, right ? Or do the laws only apply to non-believers ?

A priest is still a person.
The only thing that makes a Christian different is they are forgiven and they are expected to do the right thing because they know white from black.
Christians are still tempted and give into temptation. :bang:

[CosmicFish]

The punishment God gives us? An eternity of suffering?
Mr strafio, your assumption of people burning for eternity is found where in the Bible?

"But he that shall blaspeme agianst the Holy Ghost hath never forgivness, but is in danger of eternal damnation"
To be seperated from God is eternal damnation. where does it say you'll roast in flames?
Endeavour, you're the only one here mentioning flames, not strafio or Blevunly. In any case one answer to your question lies in Mark 9:47-48: "...and be thrown into hell, where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched"

Mr Fish, or Ms fish, Im not sure which, sorry.
Mr. Not that it's really important. It's not my real name after all. ;)

I see your point but if we followed the rules things would not be deserved. My parents spent time with me and didnt want me do anything wrong, yet I still played with fire and later lied to people and got in fights. The parent has responsibility to teach but the child must be responsible for their actions. God teaches us through the Bible and the laws and then it's our turn to obey or not.
It's the severity of the punishment that bothers me. As a child I got caught stealing and my pocket money was stopped for a few weeks - appropriate punishment. I was also caught playing with fire and I was grounded for a week - again, appropriate. As an adult if I steal, mug or rape, then I deserve to be heavily fined / imprisoned, whatever.

Now for the act of simply not believing that God exists (not an unreasonable assumption to make) we're to believe that we'll be raised from the dead at the end of time and tortured eternally? Personally I have enormous difficuly believing that any kind of higher intelligence would be capable of this. It seems more likely the kind of thing you'd expect a really up-tight bitter and angry human being to come up with.

[tbubb1]

Now for the act of simply not believing that God exists (not an unreasonable assumption to make) we're to believe that we'll be raised from the dead at the end of time and tortured eternally?

It's not the fact that you don't believe in God that's sending you to hell.
It's the fact that you have sinned that's sending you there.
Believing in God is what cleanses you of your sin, thus making you holy in the eyes of God.
If you never once sinned in your life, you'd be admitted into Heaven when you die because you're untainted and perfect!
Unfortunately, there has only been one person who has EVER been perfect.

As to the severity of the punishment-- Sinning is the worst possible thing you can do.
No one seems to respect that. It breaks the heart of your Creator.

[ChrisDog118]

As Cosmic Fish has covered a good deal of my response, and we share similiarly agnostic views I will move straight on to the flaming.

Do you actually read what you hanously call scripture? If God (Or any other non gender specific deity, stop saying "he") passed down his "Word" and intended it to be so badly reproduced im sure he would of gone to some illiterate Roman slave to write the bible. PLEASE use Spell Check. Rather than the Council of Nicya.

Regarding the actual content of what you have written, I must confess I am baffled as to where you get the balls to tell me and the other members of this MARTIAL ARTS FORMUM anything to do with my beliefs. MY beliefs. I have the pleasure of being able to tell Jehovas witness's on my doorstep where to go but on an online forum I do not have this pleasure. I am a member on this formum to discuss martial arts and I do not appreciate you preaching to me in this arena. Kindly stop. Thankyou.

OMG Pwned Noob!

[bcullen]

Mr. Not that it's really important. It's not my real name after all. ;)

Yeah, his real name is Planetary Crustacean. :D


It's the severity of the punishment that bothers me. As a child I got caught stealing and my pocket money was stopped for a few weeks - appropriate punishment. I was also caught playing with fire and I was grounded for a week - again, appropriate. As an adult if I steal, mug or rape, then I deserve to be heavily fined / imprisoned, whatever.

Now for the act of simply not believing that God exists (not an unreasonable assumption to make) we're to believe that we'll be raised from the dead at the end of time and tortured eternally? Personally I have enormous difficuly believing that any kind of higher intelligence would be capable of this. It seems more likely the kind of thing you'd expect a really up-tight bitter and angry human being to come up with.

Amen, Brother Fish. ;)


"The most preposterous notion that H. Sapiens has up dreamed up is that the Lord God of Creation, Shaper and Ruler of all the Universes, wants the saccharine adoration of His creatures, can be swayed by their prayers, and becomes petulant if He does not recieve this flattery." ~Robert Heinlein

The level of thinking necessary to believe ourselves to be so important and God to be so petty can only be the work of a human mind.

[CosmicFish]

It's not the fact that you don't believe in God that's sending you to hell.
It's the fact that you have sinned that's sending you there.
OK, fair comment, my bad.

Believing in God is what cleanses you of your sin, thus making you holy in the eyes of God.
Just that? Are you sure? I don't want to be too pedantic, but what about a sinner who believes in God but just doesn't care? Essentially sinning and thumbing his nose at God?

If you never once sinned in your life, you'd be admitted into Heaven when you die because you're untainted and perfect!
Unfortunately, there has only been one person who has EVER been perfect.
As to the severity of the punishment-- Sinning is the worst possible thing you can do.
No one seems to respect that. It breaks the heart of your Creator.
One big big problem I have with this is due to a certain assumption I've made about Christian belief. Perhaps you can tell me if my assumption is reasonable or not: (And I'm serious, I'm not being sarcastic here.)

Nothing existed before God. Not only no animals, no people, no world, no suns, etc. But no universe, no laws of physics, no time, no space, no angels, no Satan, no freewill and no sin (to name a few). When God created, he created all these things. Not only did he create us, but he defined all our flaws as part of the creating act. He decided what would be a sin and what wouldn't. He "preprogrammed" us with a strong desire to commit these sins and a measly feeble amount of self-discipline, leaving us realistically incapable of resisting.

Now after he's done all this, being essentially the equivalent of some cosmic computer programmer. He then sets us loose on Earth, surrounded by innumerable possibilities for sinning, with "free will" but a hopeless lack of self-discipline. He then blames us when we fail to stay away from sin!

And I don't buy this whole "you have free will" thing either. I'm no psychologist, but even from my lay perspective, there are clearly different levels of free will. Someone who is mentally ill, depressed or suffers from an OCD, for example, will have a hell of a lot more trouble doing or not doing something than someone "normal" will.


LOL @ Planetary Crustacean, BTW bcullen. :)

[Endeavor]

Mr strafio, you mentioned an eternity of suffering.. so where does that come from? Mr fish talks about being tortured eternally... Now do you see where I get the idea you people are talking about eternal punishment?
x
Saz, I apologize for talking about religion in a non-religious forum, please move this thread to the religion forum.
x
In danger of hellfire.. sounds like a could be not will happen thing. Means youre in danger not you will get it.
x
Blevunly: the tongue is a fire and it sets on fire the course of nature and is set on fire by hell... This isnt the future result for eternity. This is today people lie and speak evil, the tongue isnt on fire literally, The word that we use are the evil... What you say is hell or can be pleasant as well. Actually none of your quotes from the Bible refer to hell as a place where a man will suffer eternally. Movies and cartoons and tv and music and art and corrupted leaders place these images.
x
Chrisdog, no one is preaching to you, you came here in a religious conversation. Feel free to read and respond or not read these posts, Its your liberty.
x
Mr fish: where the worm dyeth not and the fire isnt quenched means the worm doesnt consume you totally nor do the flames burn you up, how can you burn for eternity and not be consumed or how can you be eaten eternally and not be eaten up? YOu cant. These saying mean there is enough room for everyone and it is said repeatedly souls will be cut off. The book of revelation says the souls, not the physical bodies which are back to dust are destroyed. And death and hell is ithrown into the lake of fire. that sounds like an end not an ongoing suffering
x
Blevunly: the only damnation is hell? It plainly says "this is the condemnation: that men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil"
x
Yes mr. Punisher, a preist should and does know these things, please again consider The Bible teachings opposed to the things some of the false followers do. Priests are not the leaders of Christians, Christ is the leader of Christians, followers of priests are playing with fire, Priests were a good intention of being a help to people that needed to learn more about the Bible.
Again: if a cop or politician or doctor is corrupt it is not because of their job, it is their own greed and evil that make them abuse their power. A priest that dosent love God or follow Him is not a Christian, A Christian follows the teachings of Christ to the best of their ability. Some preachers do this with great affection and some abuse their position for their own lusts. We have talked this to death.
x
Going to confession Mr punisher is part of a tradition. Confessing sins to God is in the Bible. No you dont repeat the same sins daily and just say hey excuse me, You fight them and new sins enter in. Sins like seeing a nice car and you WANT that car or that house or that woman or that job or that money. You confess what you know is wrong and want it to not be such a lust for you. sometimes sinning is the restraint we have. If somone needs help and we just walk on by this could be a sin. There are certainly people everyone of us could help with kind words or money or whatever and we dont help everyone we could or even anyone we could most of the time. This is a struggle I face everyday. I use this oppourtunity online to help people understand what the Bible says if they want to know.
x
To sum this up again, Sins are what seperate Christians from Christ, sinning is anti-Christian. If a person does evil it is not because they are following the directions of how to be a good person, they are working contrary.

[Endeavor]

Mr Fish, In responce to your last post, God gives EVERYONE an easy choice of accepting HIm unto salvation. You dont have to do anything, you dont stop sinning, you just accept you cant stop sinning and you have violated the rules.
x
"that WHOSOEVER believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life..for God sent His Son into the world NOT TO CONDEMN the world, but that the world might be saved by HIM"
x
we are not blamed for sin> "none of his sins will be MENTIONED to him"
so to believe wipes that away, "all have sinned" this much we know
The choice is an easy one.

[Strafio]

Mr strafio, you mentioned an eternity of suffering.. so where does that come from? Mr fish talks about being tortured eternally... Now do you see where I get the idea you people are talking about eternal punishment?
Eternal punishment, yeah. I thought you were making the "eternal punishment doesn't necessarily mean burning" point. This comes from most Christians I've talked with, ones that agree with you in every other way.

They believe the "the consequences of sin is death" and that it's a spiritual death rather than a literal death, so you spend eternity in suffering because you've been cut off from your source of happiness/fulfillment - God.

Do you believe it's more of a literal death?
Lights out and nothing again?
If that was the case then God wouldn't be as sadistic as the "eternal suffering" version suggests. Still not quite "the ultimate love" that people make him out to be, though.

[Blevunly]

Mr strafio, you mentioned an eternity of suffering.. so where does that come from? Mr fish talks about being tortured eternally... Now do you see where I get the idea you people are talking about eternal punishment?
x
Saz, I apologize for talking about religion in a non-religious forum, please move this thread to the religion forum.
x
In danger of hellfire.. sounds like a could be not will happen thing. Means youre in danger not you will get it.
x
Blevunly: the tongue is a fire and it sets on fire the course of nature and is set on fire by hell... This isnt the future result for eternity. This is today people lie and speak evil, the tongue isnt on fire literally, The word that we use are the evil... What you say is hell or can be pleasant as well. Actually none of your quotes from the Bible refer to hell as a place where a man will suffer eternally. Movies and cartoons and tv and music and art and corrupted leaders place these images.
x
Chrisdog, no one is preaching to you, you came here in a religious conversation. Feel free to read and respond or not read these posts, Its your liberty.
x
Mr fish: where the worm dyeth not and the fire isnt quenched means the worm doesnt consume you totally nor do the flames burn you up, how can you burn for eternity and not be consumed or how can you be eaten eternally and not be eaten up? YOu cant. These saying mean there is enough room for everyone and it is said repeatedly souls will be cut off. The book of revelation says the souls, not the physical bodies which are back to dust are destroyed. And death and hell is ithrown into the lake of fire. that sounds like an end not an ongoing suffering
x
Blevunly: the only damnation is hell? It plainly says "this is the condemnation: that men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil"
x
Yes mr. Punisher, a preist should and does know these things, please again consider The Bible teachings opposed to the things some of the false followers do. Priests are not the leaders of Christians, Christ is the leader of Christians, followers of priests are playing with fire, Priests were a good intention of being a help to people that needed to learn more about the Bible.
Again: if a cop or politician or doctor is corrupt it is not because of their job, it is their own greed and evil that make them abuse their power. A priest that dosent love God or follow Him is not a Christian, A Christian follows the teachings of Christ to the best of their ability. Some preachers do this with great affection and some abuse their position for their own lusts. We have talked this to death.
x
Going to confession Mr punisher is part of a tradition. Confessing sins to God is in the Bible. No you dont repeat the same sins daily and just say hey excuse me, You fight them and new sins enter in. Sins like seeing a nice car and you WANT that car or that house or that woman or that job or that money. You confess what you know is wrong and want it to not be such a lust for you. sometimes sinning is the restraint we have. If somone needs help and we just walk on by this could be a sin. There are certainly people everyone of us could help with kind words or money or whatever and we dont help everyone we could or even anyone we could most of the time. This is a struggle I face everyday. I use this oppourtunity online to help people understand what the Bible says if they want to know.
x
To sum this up again, Sins are what seperate Christians from Christ, sinning is anti-Christian. If a person does evil it is not because they are following the directions of how to be a good person, they are working contrary.

Ok so what happens when we die? Since you seem to have a different view then every Christian I have ever met.

[Endeavor]

I have no clue whatsoever the purpose of the people in this world that are so cruel and so cold. I cant tell you why they are here
x
I think it is a final end to that soul in the end of the earth. I dont find anywhere that says we keep our bodies, rather that when we die our bodies go to dust.
x
If all we have to do is ask to be forgiven for not following the rules, some of them we dont even know unless we study restlessly. It seems like an easy choice. Like pretendingtodie said, Christians are just people too, but they are forgiven. The things we think no one knows about and no one saw so its ok, and yet we feel guilty: this is the spirit acting upon us. You dont have to open a Bible to know you dont go punch your mother, you never have to be told that, you know right and wrong no matter what your religion is, and the good news needs to be spread about what people who havent heard need to know. God made us, we came from Him, and we will go back to Him,
x
Please dont take what men say as gold, when you read for yourself you will know wheather they speak of themself or if God has told them, many people use some of the good advantages to shadow their own greed in the name of a good idea. With all fields of life, not just religion. Even people we love can mislead us because they were misled. They can be the nicest people in the world who tell us the wrong information.
x
Something I NEVER thought possible was all my anger and mistrust and hate towards the cold things people do were comforted in the Bible. When you read you realize even if you dont believe the history, you feel the living words break and rebuild your heart. You realize no man on earth ever said such things as you learn about in the Bible. Proverbs and John and James are excellant examples to the person who has little time to read a big Book.
x
I read doubting and looking for ways to argue with Christians and then I said hey these "Christians" arent even Christians! Now that was something no one ever told me! Christians follow Christ, not a church, not a preacher or priest, but the Bible, we go to church and find evil there too, but also go to pray and hear good witness and give witness. But you cant invest your eternity in a church or a preacher you need the TRUE leader of the church, not the pope or a man, but God. Youll actually find in reading the Bible that Christ was underfire from the church leaders. and yet they claim to be Gods tools in this world, but some of us see through it. Again, there are good examples of preachers too! Better people than me for sure! Also bad examples, so bad the status of their danger is immediantly at their doors.

[Endeavor]

Biblical Assumptions Resolved.
Want to know what happens when you die? Surprise! you dont go to heaven or hell! Did you hear about this and that person waving to you? Me too!
but Christ said when He died, "dont touch me, for I have not yet ascended to my Father" ..."the dead know nothing" eccleiasties
x
when you die you sleep and when Christ returns to harvest the earth we are all gathered together for the judgement. Souls are cut off or they spend eternity with God. This is not my view. If you read the Bible you'll find many things people told you in life are not in the Bible!!!
x
No burn in hell forever, "heaven and earth pass away, death and hell are themselves eliminated"
x
I thought hey I would miss this and that person, but later I realized I wouldnt be looking around nor would anyone else, we would all be looking at God and we wouldnt have to be ashamed!!!

[Blevunly]

Biblical Assumptions Resolved.
Want to know what happens when you die? Surprise! you dont go to heaven or hell! Did you hear about this and that person waving to you? Me too!
but Christ said when He died, "dont touch me, for I have not yet ascended to my Father" ..."the dead know nothing" eccleiasties
x
when you die you sleep and when Christ returns to harvest the earth we are all gathered together for the judgement. Souls are cut off or they spend eternity with God. This is not my view. If you read the Bible you'll find many things people told you in life are not in the Bible!!!
x
No burn in hell forever, "heaven and earth pass away, death and hell are themselves eliminated"
x
I thought hey I would miss this and that person, but later I realized I wouldnt be looking around nor would anyone else, we would all be looking at God and we wouldnt have to be ashamed!!!

So there's no punishment whatsoever? If that's true then you just made my day.

[thepunisher]

So let me get this right, Endeavour, the only absolution to not go to hell when you have sinned is to have loved god before, right ? Meaning, if you are anti-christian or lets put it into nicer words atheist or agonist you are directly expempted from this rule, as you didn't love god and in return he didn't love you. Care to tell me who in his right mind would come up with something like this except for a person who wanted ppl to think exactly his way and make sure they would follow him ?

By the way, sorry to say this Endeavour, you are starting to sound like a preacher on here. And I can understand some members reactions to that as well as I myself don't like preachers either, whether in real life or on the internet. It gets really irritating after a while when you have a person wanting to drill their oppinion and ways into you. So how about you stop it now. Thanks, appreciate it !

Christian

[CosmicFish]

Mr Fish, In responce to your last post, God gives EVERYONE an easy choice of accepting HIm unto salvation. You dont have to do anything, you dont stop sinning, you just accept you cant stop sinning and you have violated the rules.
x
"that WHOSOEVER believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life..for God sent His Son into the world NOT TO CONDEMN the world, but that the world might be saved by HIM"
x
we are not blamed for sin> "none of his sins will be MENTIONED to him"
so to believe wipes that away, "all have sinned" this much we know
The choice is an easy one.
It's not a particularly easy choice if you're one of those people who insists on believing in something, only when there's proof beyond a reasonable doubt that it's actually true in the first place.

[Strafio]

Something I NEVER thought possible was all my anger and mistrust and hate towards the cold things people do were comforted in the Bible. When you read you realize even if you dont believe the history, you feel the living words break and rebuild your heart. You realize no man on earth ever said such things as you learn about in the Bible. Proverbs and John and James are excellant examples to the person who has little time to read a big Book.
Sounds like your faith is working for you.
What if I'd found something like the bit in bold in another book, even though it isn't the Bible or have anything to do with Christianity? The Bible has never really done it for me, otherwise I guess I'd be a Christian. :)

I have had other books, mainly based on Buddhism, that have "said something" to me. Do you think that equivilant to what happened to you or do you think that in your case that it was God inspiring and my case was the devil deceiving?

[Endeavor]

Mr. Punisher you are in a religious forum under a religous heading and you dont want to talk about religion? Youre free to brouse other forums and very very welcome to stay. :)
x
many books, religions and people can tell you things God has inspired them. If a person saves you from a burning car it's not their religion but the goodness God put in their heart. This love is Gods work, the same is true for the person who does evil, this can be a normally good person fallen to temptations.
If anyone tells you anything good, listen close, and if a good person tells you something foul take heed. Take things for what they are worth.
x
From the little I know about Buddism I belive they worship God and accept Jesus as a prophet just not the Son of God. I dont know exactly. If they teach you about love and praying to God that is good indeed. When people act contrary to the laws of the Bible that isnt good.
x
Mr fish in dealing with the future ,doubts and expectations are not something to take too lightly, especially when the future is eternity, which is void or ever-lasting. We accept most things with little proof, even your real name you have just been told or have the birth certificate, you dont know if you were switched in the hospital or really adopted. But you accept that you are who you are. So do I. You hear things about events over 100 years ago, but you were not there so you really dont know, you just agree with history.
x
Blevunly: the punishment is not living forever and being happy and not having peace now in your mind and heart. There are plenty punishments in this life, and more in the life to come for the destroyers.
x
Yes mr punisher God loves atheists too. If we are all guilty of sin and sin is punishable by death than to be alive is grace. Some people have no legs, some are blind, some are victoms of horrible crimes and poverty. If you are healthy or able to see, able to walk, have a computer, you got more than alot of people. He is very kind to the unthankful and even the evil. They are given chance after chance to re-consider their effects on mankind. And when they change it really does matter, if not to man still to God. many atheists have many things some Christians never have inn this life. Some Christians suffer more than some atheists and some atheists have great riches in this life. But we prepar for the life to come.
x
God works through you wheather you belive or not, you answer questions you havent been asked and you ask questions others answer to themselves.
People start to see when someone brings in ideas they have learned outside the teachings of the Bible. People see the conflict and the words that betray man while he tries to be standing tall in his own decisions regardiing the purpose of life.
x
reasonable doubts are a fine thing to have when appropriate. Doubts are a part of life, you find doubts resolved down the road and dont need to look back because it is natural. I had several doubts inmy life, the time has come when such things had to pass.
x
Mr strafio, it has been such a great joy to have this change inmy life, my thoughts are more calm, of peace. I was a violent person, more in my mind wanting to jump on anyone that crossed my path wrong. I also was very angry. I would play a video game and it would cheat me and I'd be very ill and frustrated. I'd be off in a game of basketball and be mad because I would miss. Now I know the games can cheat and I know some days I hit almost all my shots in basketball. So now its all good with that stuff. I dont mind the bills in my adult life, I know that life is more improtant and I'll catch up, be in debt, or gain adequate finances one day, whatever I'll still be me. Ive had heartbreaks and Ive had great blessings. My lungs still pump air either way, I have survived so I treat life to the best I can. The world is full of sorrows but I know a better day. dont make me sing Ive got sunshine on a cloudy day, but I could :)
x
Again I made this thread in a religious part of MAP, every martial artist must seek to enlighten his or her mind not just learn how to kick someones butt. we must be disiplined in the mind. I dont force any opinions or truths on anyone, these posts are for curious people who want to know what the Bible says as opposed to what most people say the Bible says, which is mostly two different things.. So please ask or just listen or avoid me if you want, but please dont enter my religious thread in the religoius forum and ask me not to preach about religion. Thats like going to a metallica concert and saying excuse me I have a headache please dont play that guitar and nooo singing. by the way great concert!

[Blevunly]

From the little I know about Buddism I belive they worship God and accept Jesus as a prophet just not the Son of God. I dont know exactly. If they teach you about love and praying to God that is good indeed. When people act contrary to the laws of the Bible that isnt good.
x
Blevunly: the punishment is not living forever and being happy and not having peace now in your mind and heart. There are plenty punishments in this life, and more in the life to come for the destroyers.

So I get to die and that'll be it? Cause I wouldn't mind that.

P.S. i think you mean Islam instead of Buddism

[Strafio]

Yeah, Buddhism is slightly different.
It's kind of agnostic towards a God.
So there might or might not be a God, if there isn't then it works without him, if there is then it's assumed a loving God would approve of the Buddhist way of life. (Enlightenment is kind of like what you described in your bit about how the Bible changed you, how it finds you happiness and peace of mind in your understanding in life)

Buddhists do have some beliefs that you might find weird.
One is that there's no such thing as sin, no such thing as "right" or "wrong".
Actions are described "skillful" or "unskillful", ones that bring happiness is skillful etc...
In practice, "being skillful" is similar to "not sinning", the difference is that you believe that you get punished by your sins (through karma) rather than for your sins by a judging God.
Karma is the belief in "what goes around comes around". Basically, when you do things that hurt people, you set of a chain of events that gradually leads to problems of your own, while doing things to make people happy will likely result in a chain of consequences leading to happiness of your own. Because karma is rarely fullfilled in a single lifetime (the consequences of you doing something just before you die probably won't have time to reach you), it's believed that your karma is carried into a "next life" of some sort. Some believe in this as re-incarnation. I'm not so sure about that but I reckon that you "pass the torch" somehow or other.

Just sharing a bit back. :)

[thepunisher]

Mr. Punisher you are in a religious forum under a religous heading and you dont want to talk about religion? Youre free to brouse other forums and very very welcome to stay. :)

Actually Endeavour, you're on a Religion forum on a martial arts website so telling me to go somewhere else is kind of stupid. Especially as I do two MA's. What kind of MA do you do ?


Yes mr punisher God loves atheists too. If we are all guilty of sin and sin is punishable by death than to be alive is grace.


Yeah, I'm sure "oh wise man" that god loves atheists too. Thats why any non-believer automatically goes to hell, whether he has sinned or not. Sure shows alot of love to me that one. And your comparison that Christians are sometimes worse off than non-believers is pathetic. Its called being human-some humans are generally worse off or better off than others. It has nothing to do with their religious affiliation. Although you could argue that.

Christian

[CosmicFish]

Mr fish in dealing with the future ,doubts and expectations are not something to take too lightly, especially when the future is eternity, which is void or ever-lasting. We accept most things with little proof, even your real name you have just been told or have the birth certificate, you dont know if you were switched in the hospital or really adopted. But you accept that you are who you are. So do I. You hear things about events over 100 years ago, but you were not there so you really dont know, you just agree with history.
I don't think the examples you've given are particularly good. My real name isn't a fact, it's a decision made by my parents when I was born. If they chose differently then I'd have a different name. I can't change the laws of reality by deed poll.

I don't believe I was adopted, but this belief is based on evidence. I share a great many physical similarities with my parents. I have a certain "look" which I share in common with them, making it likely that my genetic makeup comes from them. This isn't conclusive proof, but I consider it proof beyond a reasonable doubt. If someone was to show me a birth certificate that provided evidence that I really was adopted, then my original belief would be thrown into doubt until I could find out which was true beyond a reasonable doubt.

As for history, I hear about events over 100 years ago, but don't automatically agree with them just because they're history. For me it's a question of relevance. E.g. I'm told that Henry 8th had 6 wives. I don't know that he did for certain one way or the other, but because it's not particularly relevant to me I shrug and say "ok then". If some historian were to discover his 7th wife, again, I'd shrug and update my opinions. Now, if for some reason it became important to me know know how many wives he really had, I'd start demanding a whole lot more proof for one opinion or the other before believing in them.

Becoming a Christian requires a non-believer to make some pretty major changes to the way they think, act and live, therefore it's reasonable to expect them to go to some lengths to ensure that the belief system they're being asked to adopt has a sound basis in fact.

For people like me, not believing in Christianity is a simple matter of integrity. Without sufficient evidence (beyond a reasonable doubt) to support the belief, there's no reason to adopt it.

[Strafio]

Punisher! If we're not supposed to talk about religion in the religion forum then what are we supposed to talk about in here. Secondly, the guy actually said that he doesn't believe in the "eternal torment" of hell, he just reckons that when you die you'll die, just like you do. (he reckons Christians will live forever, but is there any harm in that?)

Remember what Capn Ann said earlier in the thread?
Assuming arguments where there are none?
Stop it! :)


I think Cosmic Fish's point is a good one.
Christianity demands a belief that is stronger than all but my most obvious fundamental beliefs (like the one that this laptop in front of me is real). Most of my beliefs are ones I keep they're working and ones that I'll happily throw away or set aside if they aren't.

Henry VIII had 7 wives rather than 6? shruggs
Difficult has two c's? ooops?

I think any salvation plan based on you having to absolutely believe "the right thing" is kind of flawed.

[Endeavor]

Mr Cosmic: I guess what I was trying to say is yes it isn't improtant wheather Henry had 7 or 6 wives like you said. What is improtant is did mankind just pop on the scene or were they designed and is there a final end or a chance of eternity for our hearts? To me I welcome the future. So do others. Proof and faith are hand in hand, then faith carrys you to proof. The proof is in other peoples witness, not just 2000 years ago, but the things that happen to people daily, especially when they pray and act according to the Bible. When a man says one thing, but his heart is in another place, he is not a good example. Lies prevent people from so much because of pride and the false appearance of righteousness. I know from my own experiences where I never wanted to be wrong and I knew it all! Then like most things I really learned, I learned the hard way, life and death are very real and actions bring reactions. Most of us know this but it's clouded in mystery until you read the instructions that came with this world.
x
My point is you dont really need the proof. Look at every doubter in the Bible, and think if Jesus came to your house, said, Im Jesus, you have the power to fly just this one night, and you believed and in the morning you told people and they all say youre crazy and all you can do is write, you have no proof. Even if you videotape it, it wouldnt change the world, even David Copperfield can cast the illusion of flight, and some would think the devils were giving you magic powers. The proof is in the living words that explain love and grace and nowhere else in the world will you learn about that in the extent it is expained in the Bible.
x
Mr Punisher this is a martial arts site, and this martial arts site has the forum for people to share their religious thoughts and ask questions. There are thousands of other forums to speak about your skills. Yes I do have some skills, they are not relevant to this forum, this forum is about spiritual fights.
"our weapons of warfare are not carnal, we fight against spiritual darkness in high places"
x
Aside from fun, people learn martial arts for self defence and to further disipine themselves. Religion is perhaps the biggest part of the martial artist in most cases, their mind at peace and their objectives should be good intentions, not just to score points or win championships. I didnt say this is why you train, just making a point that the disipline in themind will exceed all your fighting skills, even in a fight and after a fight and to resolve a fight.
x
You are very welcome to ask questions and share your experiences why you feel how you feel. Christians are not born in chruches and grow up sin free. We are human just as everyone is human. We are not better than anyone, we just admit sin as being something God would rather us not do altogether.
:)

[Saz]

Mr Punisher this is a martial arts site, and this martial arts site has the forum for people to share their religious thoughts and ask questions. There are thousands of other forums to speak about your skills. Yes I do have some skills, they are not relevant to this forum, this forum is about spiritual fights.

There are also thousands of other forums to speak about your skills. This forum is first and foremost about martial arts.

And does anyone else find the title of this thread somewhat offensive? So if someone doesn't believe what you believe, guess what they're next?

[bcullen]

And does anyone else find the title of this thread somewhat offensive? So if someone doesn't believe what you believe, guess what they're next?

To a degree, yes. Any faith that makes a point of condemnation of outsiders and makes an issue of acquiring converts by proselytizing rather then letting the actions of it's adherents speak for themselves bugs me a bit.

It smacks of arrogance claiming to know all the answers to life, the fact is we don't know and the search for those answers are part of the game we all play. If you've found something that works for you that's wonderful, however, claiming your way to be the only way or the true way comes off as unmitigated gall.

[thepunisher]

Punisher! If we're not supposed to talk about religion in the religion forum then what are we supposed to talk about in here. Secondly, the guy actually said that he doesn't believe in the "eternal torment" of hell, he just reckons that when you die you'll die, just like you do. (he reckons Christians will live forever, but is there any harm in that?)

Remember what Capn Ann said earlier in the thread?
Assuming arguments where there are none?
Stop it! :)


I refer you to saz's response to what he answered Strafio. This web site is about martial arts and there are thousands of other forums where he can ONLY talk about it, he doesn't have to be on here.Especially since he sounds like someone who takes the arrogance to look like he has all the answers.

And thanks for making my point above. Yes we all die but it seems Christians will live forever, according to him. Hence, follow logic, become a Christian you are given special privileges, not a Christian you better believe you'll just be dead. Any more preachy than that it can't get.

Christian

[Strafio]

I don't think Saz is telling him not to post here.
She's asking him to post some in other forums too.
Sounds like she's curious to find out more about this man of faith! ;)

[thepunisher]

Sounds like she's curious to find out more about this man of faith! ;)

Well, glad she is. Because I'm not. Especially not in someone who sounds like the preacher I see in Camden Town every
time I leave the station. And by the way, your ;) won't convince me to do so either.

Christian

[Banpen Fugyo]

This is why religion sucks.

[wrydolphin]

I would, personally, modify that Siphus- This is why some religous PEOPLE suck.

For the most part religions aren't really bad- its the people that run them that cause the ruin. If they were to follow the actual religion, do you really think so many of our problems would be around?

[Banpen Fugyo]

I would, personally, modify that Siphus- This is why some religous PEOPLE suck.

For the most part religions aren't really bad- its the people that run them that cause the ruin. If they were to follow the actual religion, do you really think so many of our problems would be around?

Yes I do.

When a religion is created ( created ;) ), its the creators fault how people interpret it. Obviously everyone will have their own views about it, so to have all these different viewpoints is just the creators fault for not making black and white distinctions of right and wrong, etc.

But then, is that even possible?

Being spiritual is a hell of a lot more important than being religious in IMO.

[wrydolphin]

I agree, being spiritual is MUCH more important then being religous. If it were a perfect world, religion would be an outward expression of internal spirituality. Unfortunately, most people have replaced spirituality with religion.

Although, I must admit, if were weren't messing with religion, we would be fighting over something else, in point of fact- throughout history, religion has been used as an excuse to attack another people for a wholly different reason. So, in any case, your point is also moot. All the wars that on the surface were fought for the sake of religion would have still occured if there had been no religion.

[Strafio]

Well, glad she is. Because I'm not. Especially not in someone who sounds like the preacher I see in Camden Town every
time I leave the station.
But that doesn't stop you from coming back to the religion forum to read that little bit more about him! ;)

And by the way, your ;) won't convince me to do so either.
:Angel:

[CosmicFish]

Mr Cosmic: I guess what I was trying to say is yes it isn't improtant wheather Henry had 7 or 6 wives like you said. What is improtant is did mankind just pop on the scene or were they designed and is there a final end or a chance of eternity for our hearts?
I'd agree it's an important point, and one I'd love to know the answer to for certain. However, your original point seemed to be along the lines of "you believe everything written in history books, so why won't you accept the history of Christianity as described in the Bible?" I've answered that by pointing out that we don't always believe everything else we're told, and that it's reasonable to ask for greater proof when what we're being asked to believe becomes more important. If our race was created by God, I'd like my proof to be a little more convincing than the say-so of a book who's primary interest is promoting the religion it stands for.

To me I welcome the future. So do others. Proof and faith are hand in hand, then faith carrys you to proof.
How does faith carry us to proof? To me, the two seem fairly mutually exclusive. My understanding is that you have faith in the absence of proof, or if you have proof then you no longer need faith. Can you explain how faith carries us to proof?

The proof is in other peoples witness, not just 2000 years ago, but the things that happen to people daily, especially when they pray and act according to the Bible.
It sounds like you're saying "you can see God working in the lives of people - there is your proof" (correct me if I'm wrong). You don't need a God in order to see people living a moral life. An atheist is perfectly capable of living a good and moral life, should they choose to. I've even heard atheists claim that their morality is superior to a Christians because it's imposed by their own self-discipline, whereas a Christian needs to be cajoled and threatened by God in order to live a moral life.

When a man says one thing, but his heart is in another place, he is not a good example. Lies prevent people from so much because of pride and the false appearance of righteousness. I know from my own experiences where I never wanted to be wrong and I knew it all! Then like most things I really learned, I learned the hard way, life and death are very real and actions bring reactions. Most of us know this but it's clouded in mystery until you read the instructions that came with this world.
Again, you don't need God for any of this:
* Atheists can be humble and admit when they're wrong - no God required.
* We all know that life and death are real, and most of us understand the principle of cause and effect - no God required.
* I'd agree that the purpose of life (if any) is shrouded in mystery. And, obviously, you're referring to the Bible when you say "the instructions that came with this world". I have read it - I joined a fundamentalist Christian church for a while at the end of my teens. I'm afraid it didn't make anything any clearer at all. If anything, things became even more confusing. When I left, and stopped trying to look for answers in a confusing old book, things became a little less confused again.

My point is you dont really need the proof. Look at every doubter in the Bible, and think if Jesus came to your house, said, Im Jesus, you have the power to fly just this one night, and you believed and in the morning you told people and they all say youre crazy and all you can do is write, you have no proof. Even if you videotape it, it wouldnt change the world, even David Copperfield can cast the illusion of flight, and some would think the devils were giving you magic powers.
And my point is that you do really need the proof. Yes, really! My reasoning is: if you don't need proof before believing in something then how do you even decide what you believe in? If I don't need proof before believing in Christianity then presumably I don't need proof before believing in any other religion either? Given which, how do I decide between them?

The proof is in the living words that explain love and grace and nowhere else in the world will you learn about that in the extent it is expained in the Bible.
People from other religions would disagree with you on that one. Personally I think it's a case of your own subjective preference. I'm neither a Hindu or a Christian, but when I read the Bhagavad Gita I found it far more spiritual, graceful and loving than when I read the Bible.

Anyway, in summary: once again, none of this provides a convincing reason to believe in Christianity.

[CosmicFish]

There are also thousands of other forums to speak about your skills. This forum is first and foremost about martial arts.

And does anyone else find the title of this thread somewhat offensive? So if someone doesn't believe what you believe, guess what they're next?
Personally I don't find it that offensive, although I suspect I may be in a minority here. I do think it's a little odd that he's apparently not a Martial Artist and that he's posting only in the Religion forums though. Personally that doesn't bother me either, as I'm quite enjoying this thread. But hey, if you don't think he should be here then I guess a mod's gotta do what a mod's gotta do. :)

One thing that does bother me though (and this isn't directed at you Saz) is that a lot of these threads devolve away from arguing their points and into people complaining about the other side "not being respectful" or being offensive in some way. And both sides seem to be equally guilty of this!

You're always going to get a fair amount of thread drift, but all the whining back and forth on the religious threads about disrespect and offensive comments is just getting old now. Can't everyone just have some kind of group hug and get back to arguing their side without all the wounded posturing?

[Strafio]

I consider it a debate on "debating ettiquette"...

Ahem... :Angel:

[Saz]

I don't think Saz is telling him not to post here.
She's asking him to post some in other forums too.
Sounds like she's curious to find out more about this man of faith! ;)

I wasn't saying not to post here.

I was wondering why someone who seemingly doesn't do a martial art would join a martial arts board, avoid any martial arts based discussion and post threads that appear to be little more than online sandwich board preaching.

[CosmicFish]

I consider it a debate on "debating ettiquette"...

Ahem... :Angel:
LOL. That's one way of looking at it! :D

[Endeavor]

Ms Saz, I post on this religous forum because it is here. I could write about how fast I am with a knife, how many people I have given a helping hand to the floor, or write about the fuel that lights the flame.
x
Martial arts are a form of self-disipline and an art often abused. Every martial artist will come to the conclusion that the physical disipine and goals met are not going to resolve their fates. Being able to defend yourself is good, but even the strongest fastest martial artist is a victom to the losses and pains of this world. There is also eternity to consider. I think it is important, so do the several hundreds who read what I write. I dont avoid martial arts questions, who is asking them? I just find that writing about fighting doesnt really make me as happy as talking to people about what we talk about in these threads. There are actually some people who lie in their stories about certain experiences.
x
Cosmic Fish, Faith carries us to proof when we believe God can help us. When the person gets out for the better or we get what we asked for, that is proof to us. Not just asking and getting is proof but rewards and consequenes that are done, and they must be done in faith not to test God.
x
If God created all people than their good actions are not based on their own efforts but their constructed souls and fates. If an atheist does something good and doesnt believe in God, God is still using them to His plan.
x
I agree with you wrydolphin! Only my explaination is that we should look more at religion than religoius people, because religion and religous are for the most part very different.
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Cosmic Fish, about having proof... If God appeared to you, you would believe, and how would YOU PROVE IT?! you would write it, and talk about it,
If Noah really was in a boat with animals in a flood, what could he do to prove it to later generations? What could the diciples of Christ do to prove it?
Can an evolutionary scientist turn an ape into a human to prove it? No, so you cant prove this either ,except the overwhelming proof that all people will die one day. Reading words which no human on earth speaks elsewhere is proof of good instruction and explaination for me. Proofs I hold and millions hold are proven but unable to duplicate because God did it for us. some things are proven and it takes time to see the proof

[Aegis]

Cosmic Fish, about having proof... If God appeared to you, you would believe, and how would YOU PROVE IT?! you would write it, and talk about it,
If Noah really was in a boat with animals in a flood, what could he do to prove it to later generations? What could the diciples of Christ do to prove it?

Well, they could go looking for evidence of a global flood in the geological record in order to confirm the bible. Oh hang on, some christians did that about 200 years ago, dind't find what they expected and could only conclude that there was no global flood and that the earth was considerably older than predicted by the geneologies in the bible. As a consequence, they could explain why it is that a god who wanted to wipe out the entire planet other than those on the ark uses a flood that leaves no mark on a boat that couldn't have stayed together and was manned by only a handful of humans who couldn't physically have looked after the sheer numbers of animals involved. After that they could explain why life is so differently represented in different locations around the world, how certain animals got from where the ark stopped to their new home, how the herbivores survived while the vegitation regrew, how the herbivores survived when the carnivores got hungry and how population models clearly show that even at the highest birthrates ever recorded, there is no way that the human population could realistically be as high as it was during the time the Roman Empire conducted their census around the time Jesus was supposedly born.

I've never seen a satisfactory explanation for any of these queries, other than assuming that the flood was allegorical.

Can an evolutionary scientist turn an ape into a human to prove it? No, so you cant prove this either ,except the overwhelming proof that all people will die one day.

First of all, humans are biologically members of the great ape family, so technically every time a mother gives birth, it's a human from an ape, much like how it's also a human from a mammal.

However, if we ignore that minor detail and assume you meant, say, from a chimp, then it's still an awful argument. After all, evolution predicts diversification froma common ancestor and also indicates that humans and chimps have a common ancestor. If a chimp gave birth to a human, this would show a major convergance down evolutionary paths, and would actually falsify the theory as we know it. Why ask for something that scientists know would falsify a theory as evidence for that theory?

Reading words which no human on earth speaks elsewhere is proof of good instruction and explaination for me. Proofs I hold and millions hold are proven but unable to duplicate because God did it for us. some things are proven and it takes time to see the proof

I have no idea what you even meant to say in this paragraph!

[BendzR]

Someone explain to me what it means to be spiritual ?

Can you be spiritual without having superstitions or believing in things via faith ?

What do you mean by being Spiritual in a non-religion-related context ?

[wrydolphin]

Aegis, there was actually a flood. The around 7,000 years ago (give or take) the small bit of land that was once the Bosporus was breached by the Mediterranean (the Black See was formed by melting glaciers and was once freshwater). The Black Sea flooded and became sal****er. There are even small villages that are found under 30-40 feet of water evidencing the flood. So, there's your Global Flood, Aegis.

Not quite as grand as the Biblical Global Flood, I admit, but obviously significant enough for it to be recorded thousands of years later by two societies.

[thepunisher]

Martial arts are a form of self-disipline and an art often abused. Every martial artist will come to the conclusion that the physical disipine and goals met are not going to resolve their fates. Being able to defend yourself is good, but even the strongest fastest martial artist is a victom to the losses and pains of this world. There is also eternity to consider. I think it is important, so do the several hundreds who read what I write. I dont avoid martial arts questions, who is asking them? I just find that writing about fighting doesnt really make me as happy as talking to people about what we talk about in these threads. There are actually some people who lie in their stories about certain experiences.


Really, I wouldn't have guessed that Endeavour. You know there are also certain ppl who aren't actually involved in the MA's on here but also post on here-who we later discover are just trolling around ? But I guess for you it feels so much better going around preaching to the ppl on this thread about the greater good of god than actually proving to us you even do a MA.

By the way, want to know why I dislike religions so much ? Because one of my ex-gf's (who just now as I discovered recently has become a mother), claiming to love god, etc. actually cheated on me while we were together. With a wanna-be-priest. And not only did she cheat on me, she had the guts to rip me to pieces for the person I'm. And this person now at this moment is not only married to a guy in the Navy on the "beautiful" island of Hawaii but also just now had his kid. See, what bothers me is how come a person claiming to be a good person and being part of a religious organization can have the guts to not only try to destroy a person emotionally but also cheat on that very person. Cheating is the lowest of the lowest anyone can do but I guess if you have god behind you its a sin that is easily forgiven. And something else I find absolutley ironic: it seems god is behind the very ppl that go around shooting and killing ppl. Why else is my ex-gf now with a child from a navy captain ? Seriously, if god really exists either he has an absolutley sordid mind or is sometimes seriously screwed in the head.

Christian

[Aegis]

So, there's your Global Flood, Aegis.

Not quite as grand as the Biblical Global Flood, I admit, but obviously significant enough for it to be recorded thousands of years later by two societies.

Not global in the "whole world" sense of the word either ;)

I can accept floods occuring in the past, even big floods that cause widespread disaster, but nothing even close to a global flood, not without a lot more evidence anyway.

[ryanTKD]

Ice caps melting! Wooo....

Maybe Noah's area was flooded... maybe he lived on the English channel!

[CosmicFish]

Cosmic Fish, Faith carries us to proof when we believe God can help us. When the person gets out for the better or we get what we asked for, that is proof to us. Not just asking and getting is proof but rewards and consequenes that are done, and they must be done in faith not to test God.
In other words we ask God to help us in our life, then something happens which improves our lot and we attribute it to God. Is that what you're saying? If so then it's still a pretty poor argument. Unless you know that God did it for you, you're only assuming it was him. If I pray to Herne the Hunter, Lord of the Trees for a payrise, and then lo and behold I get a payrise 2 weeks later, does that mean that Herne the Hunter has answered my prayer?

If an atheist does something good and doesnt believe in God, God is still using them to His plan.
I'm not sure I understand you here. Are you saying that when someone does something good, it's God making them do it?

Cosmic Fish, about having proof... If God appeared to you, you would believe, and how would YOU PROVE IT?! you would write it, and talk about it,
No. If God appeared to me, I'd believe, but I wouldn't be able to prove it to anyone else. In the same way that I won't believe in God simply because someone else says so, I wouldn't expect anyone else to believe me just because I said so. Relying on word of mouth and hearsay is a poor way of communicating information of any sort. Surely God can do better?

[Endeavor]

Mr PUnisher,
millions if not billions have felt what you have felt, betrayed. The problem is you blame religion for a non-religous action. Someone telling you a lie doesnt justify hating the truth they should have kept. If anyone says they will be loyal to you that might be a lie, wheather they are of any religion or not. When somone really follows the teachings of the bible they wont cheat on you. PERIOD. Again most people just go for the show in religion, they dont really love their neighbor and they dont really even believe there is a God.
If you read the Bible it will tell you most of its "followers" are really the enemy. And most of the worst enemies are the claimed "followers" To verify this all you got to do is take about 5 minutes to learn who killed Christ. Guess what? It was the religoius leaders who said they loved God!!! Aint that some
irony???
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Aegis, if God made man, made the flood and watched over Noah and the others why couldnt he make the boat float and feed the animals too? If God makes all things and can feed thousands with one loaf of bread, He cant keep the animals alive? Youre trying to use human logic to understand the power of God. God can turn one thing into something, make something out of nothing and start all over any time. There is no evidence that the world has never been unflooded either. If volcanoes and plate techtonics pushed up mountains were they not first at sea level? Were you around at the time of the Big Bang to explain the earth as it was formed? No scientist knows how things were if there was a big bang, and the only explaination Christians have is the creation.
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Yes, Mr Cosmic Fish, you couldnt prove it, just as no one can prove it to you and even when millions of people have things proved to themselves they cant make anyone else percieve it. You cant prove that it isnt all a dream but youre sure enough to not try to fly off a cliff because you cant proveit but you really feel youre awake.
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Mr punisher : if you find a good hearted woman who really loves you and fears God, thus actually trying to keep the laws, not because you are such a great man, but she has morals to resist lusts and tempations. When you find her you will appreciate this more than you hate the one that said they had this but was lying. I know this from my own heartbreaks and my now living dream.
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You havent proved to me any martial arts abilities, There are I think 87,000 in the off topic area, where religion is found in the forum, so I think people are interested more in religion than just general questions and answers about martial arts. Every martial artists is limited by their physical actions. The best martial artists are still subject to life death, and the pains we all face in life.
Any martial arts insturctor will encourage good moral values, because we dont want people learning martial arts to hurt anyone, rather we want self defence and disipline. When a man lays down to sleep his martial arts skills do not have anything to do with the majority of things he encounters in his mind and feels in his heart. People need answers, people seek answers. People seek instructions and help where the physical world doesnt offer a helping hand.
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Yes, Cosmic Fish, Im saying when someone does good it is of God. And when something good happens to someone bad it is also God. Not that the bad are rewarded with health and happiness, but they are loved and helped to be able to consider their blessings in due time. Given chance after chance. I know what its like to think youre on the bottom, but if you can see, walk, eat today, there are many who cant. If you even lost one eye you would know how blessed you were, and didnt deserve it. In fact we could all be crucifed yet we have fun day to day and drive our sports cars and party and do many things other than be nailed for our sins, so we should be thankful.
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Some people will loose their mothers today, some people will wake up today in prison. Some people will starve today, and people will try to tell me today how bad they have it when I know they are lucky to have it soooo good.
That is the point of this thread. We dont suffer the death consequence for sin today, so we should consider people who have suffered it. We should be thankful for the "small things" as well as the life and the health

[wrydolphin]

Gee, Aegis! Be all picky about it! :p

Also, I forgot to add, when you look at Assyrian literature, it often refers to the Middle East as the "whole world" an obvious exaggeration to emphasize the importance of the Assyrians- i.e. the important part of the world. The Assyrians themselves were fully aware that they were not the whole world, just according to them, the important part of the world, or the part that really counts. So taking that into accound, its not hard to understand how the local flood of the Assyrian "whole world" became the Global Flood when the ancient Isrealite scribes stole the story and modified it to fit into the Bible- a collection of early myths of the Isrealites.

[thepunisher]

Mr PUnisher,
millions if not billions have felt what you have felt, betrayed. The problem is you blame religion for a non-religous action. Someone telling you a lie doesnt justify hating the truth they should have kept. If anyone says they will be loyal to you that might be a lie, wheather they are of any religion or not. When somone really follows the teachings of the bible they wont cheat on you. PERIOD. Again most people just go for the show in religion, they dont really love their neighbor and they dont really even believe there is a God.


If a person uses his belief in religion to stereotype ppl like my ex did later on I think that says more about the religion or cult than the person. First thing, the person she cheated on me with was part of a cult who made sure to make me look stupid (because I didn't believe in god)in the first 48 hrs.of meeting me. Strange reason, isn't it ? The guy has no real idea about me but because I show no interest in religions he hates me from the start. Second thing, she has used her belief in god as an excuse to make herself look like an angel. She, after joining that cult, even did as if the cheating part never happened between us. As if god had forgiven her all her sins and she simply left me because with my views I was "the devil". How pathetic is that ? And the biggest irony: a year before she wanted nothing to do with religions whatsoever. Its amazing how falling in love with someone can change them to such a degree they believe any BS being told to them.

And by the way, the bold line above I don't believe one bit. If that is the case how come so many marriages go broke after one partner discovers the other partner having cheated ? Its not an absolution from not getting cheated on just because you got married or the person believes in god all of a sudden.



You havent proved to me any martial arts abilities, There are I think 87,000 in the off topic area, where religion is found in the forum, so I think people are interested more in religion than just general questions and answers about martial arts.

Care to look at my sig Endeavour ? Or in my profile ? I happen to be practicing two MA's. And there is plenty of forums on MAP just discussing different styles if you just look for them.

Christian

[Topher]

Can an evolutionary scientist turn an ape into a human to prove it?
No need, we ARE apes! :rolleyes:

[Topher]

Not global in the "whole world" sense of the word either ;)

I can accept floods occuring in the past, even big floods that cause widespread disaster, but nothing even close to a global flood, not without a lot more evidence anyway.
Obviously this large flood grew into a bigger fable with each generation, like a lot of legendary/mythological disasters.

Does anyone know how long after the great flood "happened" it was recorded?

[Saz]

I think people are interested more in religion than just general questions and answers about martial arts.

You think wrong.

The religion section is less than a year or so old. This forum is 5 years old and was one of the top forums before the religion section was added. Guess what made it that successul - general quesitons and answers about martial arts

I'll ask again, do you do a martial art, and if so which one. At the moment, I don't believe you do.

Also, please stop putting that x inbetween your paragraphs. Its makes your posts difficult to read

[Aegis]

Aegis, if God made man, made the flood and watched over Noah and the others why couldnt he make the boat float and feed the animals too? If God makes all things and can feed thousands with one loaf of bread, He cant keep the animals alive? Youre trying to use human logic to understand the power of God. God can turn one thing into something, make something out of nothing and start all over any time.

Then why resort to a flood in the first place? If god made the ark float and fed all the animals, why did Noah have to gather the food for all the animals? Why did Noah have to build the ark in the first place? Why did god make so many unanswerable questions to do with this single event? Not a great way to inspire faith.

In addition, this doesn't even start to answer the questions that I asked about the subject really. After all, my 2 most burning questions were about the animal geographical diversity after the flood (no placental mammals in australia, why?) and population growth models (impossible for that few people to repopulate the globe to the level that the Romans recorded without about 85% of all humans for that whole time period being children).

There is no evidence that the world has never been unflooded either.

Triple negative?? You have to be kidding me...

In any case, the "prove it didn't get flooded" was done over 200 years ago when Christian geologists failed to find any geological evidence for a global flood anywhere in recent history. Add to this the fact that there isn't enough water in the world and you have one of two possible situations:

1) that the global flood never happened and the story was either a lie or an allegory, or
2) that god made extra water specifically to flood the planet, performed a series of miracles to make the flood happen, then a further series to spread out the animals and repopulate the planet, but taking careful precaution to hide the evidence again. And this is a god who wants us all to believe in him? I have a really hard time understanding how people can accept option 2.

If volcanoes and plate techtonics pushed up mountains were they not first at sea level? Were you around at the time of the Big Bang to explain the earth as it was formed? No scientist knows how things were if there was a big bang, and the only explaination Christians have is the creation.

The Big Bang is the formation of the universe, and we can work that out by extrapolating the expansion of the universe back in time to a single point.

The earth is known to have formed after that, quite significantly so. The current estimate for the age of the universe is around 15 billion years old, while the earth is estimated around 4.6 billion.

I'm not quite sure where you were going with the tectonics argument, you seemed to stop half way through whatever point you were trying to make.

[Endeavor]

This is a religoius thread, in an OFF TOPIC AREA, off topic means off topic as far as I can tell. There are forums if you want to learn more about martial arts, in depth or general. This forum is for the spiritual/mental part of a persons life.
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Please dont infest the religious thread with your personal beliefs and anti-Christian hatrid. You are free to express that in your own threads if you want to create one or join an existing one.
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If God created all things why couldnt He create a flood and remove the excess water. Its not scientific to think He flooded the earth and left the water or obviously it would still be flooded. So of course He removed the water.
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Saz, my martial arts skills are limited to the use of a knife and the martial arts I learned from the military. Im not a teacher of martial arts, I am however a teacher of religion. Your martial arts skills will not answer any questions in life only make you able to hurt people or defend yourself.
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Who said Noah had to feed all the animals? If God can make man and animal and the earth suddenly appear out of nothing, sure He could make something to eat out of nothing anytime He wants. You dont know the population of the world now much less the population 2000 years ago and beyond that. If God can create people He can make as many or as few as He wants. Youre thinking like God is a human but He is a creator, and no human can create if you belive Einstein who said you can neither create nor destroy matter.
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If martial artists were not interested in religion they would not be here in the religoius forum, no one forced anyone to read these threads so stay or go to another thread that you are interested in, I know my two religous threads have gotton over 1000 views in just 4 days :) Sounds like some people are curious.
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By the way the expansion of the universe from a single point in time does not refute the Bible, it ESTABLISHES the Bible. You know some good data, but poor explainations have been man-made to account for it
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Mr Punisher I really do agree with alot of what you say! And you agree with me but I dont think you see that we say the same thing. Religion and the false claims of the followers has been a major clashing area since the dawn of time. No, marriage doesnt solve the cheating problem, faith solves the cheating problem, morals. When you decide you are not the person who is going to cheat than before you go out with a girl you already know you are not going to cheat. When you meet a girl who has the morals not to cheat than before she meets you she has this established. Then when we already have these morals the relationship is more secure. I had a girl I was engaged to and she told me, no drugs/alcohol, no sex if no marriage, I was so in love.. nice morals! then next thing I know she's sleeping around and taking pills!
So she was simply lying, but I learned the hard way I just loved her for the person I WANTED HER TO BE, so when it was resolved she wasnt that woman, I was able to look for other women because I was OK :)
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Let me ask you this. If the Bible says dont cheat and one Christian is faithful and another Christian sleeps around, which is following the Bible? So the blame lies in the individual not the instruction, because if anyone followed the Bible and did not sin what a world it would be! No killing, no lusting, no stealing, no hatrid. But we all stray from the rules so some of us want to be accepted back like a child that disobeys but still wants the parent to love them.

[thepunisher]

This is a religoius thread, in an OFF TOPIC AREA, off topic means off topic as far as I can tell. There are forums if you want to learn more about martial arts, in depth or general. This forum is for the spiritual/mental part of a persons life.

Please dont infest the religious thread with your personal beliefs and anti-Christian hatrid. You are free to express that in your own threads if you want to create one or join an existing one.

Saz, my martial arts skills are limited to the use of a knife and the martial arts I learned from the military. Im not a teacher of martial arts, I am however a teacher of religion. Your martial arts skills will not answer any questions in life only make you able to hurt people or defend yourself.

Endeavour, I would advise you to watch your tone in your posts. I don't think saz, an admin of this site will appreciate you talking down to her. Also, I find it a bit arrogant of you to come on here and dictate the rules of what ppl should post here in response and what they shouldn't.

Well, at least we established something, you learned MA's in the military and are a teacher of religion. In what sense ? A priest ? And how come you switched from being in the military to becoming a man of god ?


Let me ask you this. If the Bible says dont cheat and one Christian is faithful and another Christian sleeps around, which is following the Bible? So the blame lies in the individual not the instruction, because if anyone followed the Bible and did not sin what a world it would be! No killing, no lusting, no stealing, no hatrid. But we all stray from the rules so some of us want to be accepted back like a child that disobeys but still wants the parent to love them.

You know Endeavour, if that is the case why are we even talking about this ? And good question above, yes, which one is following the bible ? And if you don't know the answer to that then I guess nobody does. And concerning morales Endeavour, I think I'm a more moral person now than if I would have maybe become someone of a Christian faith. You know why ppl love going to Holland Endeavour ? Because too many rules close a person in and at one point they want to break out. In Holland the rules are more open and that means ppl make their own decisions. I think thats a wise move. Thats how I see religion as well. It gives you lots of rules to follow but we are all human and none of us want to be encaged. So we break them. Its just sad that some still use god as an excuse for some of their own doings. Its their decisions, not gods.

Christian

[Aegis]

Please dont infest the religious thread with your personal beliefs and anti-Christian hatrid. You are free to express that in your own threads if you want to create one or join an existing one.

Who exactly was this aimed at?


If God created all things why couldnt He create a flood and remove the excess water. Its not scientific to think He flooded the earth and left the water or obviously it would still be flooded. So of course He removed the water.

It's not scientific to think he flooded the world in the first place. Nor is it scientific to believe in a god in the first place. That's why you have faith: if it was scientific you wouldn't need faith.

However, it is illogical to think that an omnipotent being would use such a roundabout method of culling the population of the earth. Not only does he decide to wipe out the innocent animals along with the sinning humans (of which I can only assume there must have been some who didn't deserve death), but he does so using a flood he doesn't need to do, commanding a human to build a boat that couldn't float or house all the animals and gather food he wouldn't really need, the flooding the earth for much longer than needed, then receding the waters without them leaving a single trace of their presence, then teleporting animals back to their natural habitats, providing them with new sources of food en route, then finally increasing the breeding rate temporarily to create enough population for the Roman Census to be accurate in the year -4 or so. Sounds like an awful lot of unecessary effort and explaining away, especially when such an omnipotent being could just snap his fingers and have the same end result. As I said, totally illogical, and if a simple mortal can think of the faster method, why can't a god?

This is one of those stories where if you try to take it literally, it actually drives people like me away from christianity rather than encouraging them to find out more.


Who said Noah had to feed all the animals? If God can make man and animal and the earth suddenly appear out of nothing, sure He could make something to eat out of nothing anytime He wants.

See above

If God can create people He can make as many or as few as He wants. Youre thinking like God is a human but He is a creator, and no human can create if you belive Einstein who said you can neither create nor destroy matter.

Einstein didn't say that. In fact, he was most famous for his equation, (delta)E=(delta)mc^2, which actually demonstrates that matter can be created from energy, and vice versa. In any case, humans can create, we just use what's around us to create things.


By the way the expansion of the universe from a single point in time does not refute the Bible, it ESTABLISHES the Bible. You know some good data, but poor explainations have been man-made to account for it

The timescale does if you assume a literal bible with a literal 6-day creation. And I fail to see how this data in any way establishes the bible. After all, the creation account is extremely vague and even then appears to have things in the wrong order. I'd hardly call that establishment.

However, I've never been one to argue with faith. If people want to believe something despite the evidence, then fine by me. As long as it is accepted by both sides that scientifically most arguments for a young earth or a global flood have zero supporting evidence outside the religion you believe in.

[Endeavor]

I apologize Saz if I was out of line telling you about posting. I think people hate me because I dont believe what you do, so you assume Im being mean asking you not to post anti-Christian statements here. The reason I made this thread was for people to ask questions for Christians, not have non-Christians come in and teach their beliefs.
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Punisher, I wanted to learn about the military and self defence to give myself better self-esteem. When I know I can accomplish something, even doing 23 chin-ups, it makes me feel like a man, not that Im better or the strongest man, but even that Im a man who can do better than average, while God lets me have health and strength. I still have an interest in martial arts, only not the Military violence which I, at this time dont agree with. Neither do the majority of Americans, we dont want our brothers and sisters in our armed forces, nor the civilians in Iraq to die for what? We have no tolerance for terrorism but we dont believe in this war today. Like a grand scale martial arts, war, it has now been from defending to being aggressive. I wanted to learn the defence for good, I have no tolerance for the aggression only to pray hard and hope for the best for all.
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mr/mrs Aegis: this is exactly what you said. faith , not science. If you want a thread on science, be my guest. This thread is in the off topic, religoius thread on the Bible, not on your personal views. You can have them, you can come here to learn, but please dont try dictate evolution to Christians, we are not trying to tell you what to do, so please show the same respect. We want you to learn, not to teach, that is all, when we ask about evolution we dont ask Christians to explain it all, we ask evolutionary scientists. This is a thread for Christian answers not evolution explainations. Can you at least agree with this??? pretty please :)
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If I went to a scientific thread and went on how you were all wrong and needed to go to church you would be mad, now you are doing the same only you are in a place of religion. I show you respect by not even looking for a thread on science to change things so please show the same respect, you came to a Christian thread about the Bible.
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I mean no disrespect to anyone who believes in evolution, but this is not the place for evolution or I would have made the thread to reflect that. You have brought up evolution, enforced it as a standard of reality, but it is not accepted by the Christian so why continue to preach your ideas and tell me not to preach? :cry:

[Aegis]

The only evolution comment I made in this thread was to correct your misunderstanding of it. Other than that, I have made no mention of it that I can remember.

[Saz]

This thread isn't going to go anywhere but round and round in circles...

I apologize Saz if I was out of line telling you about posting. I think people hate me because I dont believe what you do, so you assume Im being mean asking you not to post anti-Christian statements here. The reason I made this thread was for people to ask questions for Christians, not have non-Christians come in and teach their beliefs.

One of the things about this site is when you post something, people will challenge you. Shock horror, they may have different beliefs than you. If you can't accept that, and can't accept that you can't always control the conversation, you shouldn't post.

Also, just becase we have a religion section, doesn't mean this is a religion forum, as you still seem to think it is. It isn't. It also certainly isn't exclusively Christian.