forget politics let's talk about kuda-kuda

[Gajah Silat]

Wali said:In my humble opinion, the Kuda-Kuda forms an integral part of silat. If a silat system doesn't have it, then I would start to question other aspects of that art in terms of authenticity.
****************** :)
I'm a beginer in silat...could you tell me why do you do kuda-kuda? What is the purpose?
Thanking you in advance,
Tristan

Wali, I totally agree :)

OJ, as one beginer to another I would say this.

Although maybe not the purpose of Kuda2.....but from Kuda2 with only 2 other langkah one can attain 360 degrees of movement. Segi tiga to empat sliwa, kiri to kanan, it's all there, fore and aft in a mere 3 langkah-langkah.

Why spend all the time and effort on all those other MA stances when 3 on 3 levels covers most eventualities :)

We do "economy of movement" very well. Kinda buy one get one free. The Bogof of MA :rolleyes:

[Orang Jawa]

Although maybe not the purpose of Kuda2.....but from Kuda2 with only 2 other langkah one can attain 360 degrees of movement. Segi tiga to empat sliwa, kiri to kanan, it's all there, fore and aft in a mere 3 langkah-langkah.
****************
Close but no cigar :)
Anyone else?
Tristan

[Gajah Silat]

Pak OJ, for a beginer who does not smoke, it seemed a good way of getting a real technical Silat discussion going :)

Of course the potential to move in any direction may just be one aspect.

Whatever our style or affiliation we all have kuda-kuda. Don't we?

Let's see if we can have a serious technical discussion :eek:

Selamat malam. Aku harus tidur sekarang....yawn. Don't worry Sarge....just Good night. I gotta sleep now zzzzzzzzzzz

[tellner]

There are lots of reasons, Tristan. Right now the main one is "My teacher knows a lot more than me, and he says I'll stop getting dumped on my ass if I work harder at it." :D

[Orang Jawa]

Salam GS,
Whatever our style or affiliation we all have kuda-kuda. Don't we?
************
Kuda-kuda is prime important in silat, without it, is like a coffee tobruk drinker drinking decaf coffee :) Fighting is like a big war but in micro scale. In a war, we have to have a staging area, in order to have staging area, we must secure the perimeter, we must have the tools to do the jobs, supplies,transportation, and gather intelligent. In Silat, kuda-kuda is the staging area or persiapan for offensive/defensive or for training purposes. Therefore, without understanding how important kuda-kuda is, regardless how good your tools (techniques) are, how efficient your method of transportation (power/speed/timing, etc), and how much knowledge you have in silat. If your persiapan (kuda-kuda) is weak, your staging area was blown in the first enemy attack, your perimeter was overrun, then all of those things you have been study dillegently are blown too. Remember your objective is NOT TO GET HIT. Do whatever you can, you can dance, run, jumping around, etc. as long as you not get hit, then you are okay. Kuda-kuda will help you to do all of it. I think? :)
I can be wrong too,
Tristan

GS, I did not smoke too....;)

[CQC]

In my humble opinion, the Kuda-Kuda forms an integral part of silat. If a silat system doesn't have it, then I would start to question other aspects of that art in terms of authenticity.

Actually, there are a many silat that doesn't employ any kuda-kuda.It varies on each perguruan.

[tim_stl]

i think the definitions of kuda-kuda of various practicioners does not match. i know pak tristan's kuda-kuda is not the same as what the style i study calls kuda-kuda. perhaps it would help to define what kuda-kuda is for our style?



tim

[Orang Jawa]

Actually, there are a many silat that doesn't employ any kuda-kuda.It varies on each perguruan.
********************
Huh???????
To my knowledge...which is not much at all. Traditional Silat always have kuda-kuda. As Tim said, it may vary in each system of silat, buy yet is there.
Unless you are talking the new and improve silat...:)
I'm the oldtimer, slower, and toothless, hairless, glasses, shortness, pennyless, and worthless.
Tristan

[Orang Jawa]

Salam Tim,
think the definitions of kuda-kuda of various practicioners does not match. i know pak tristan's kuda-kuda is not the same as what the style i study calls kuda-kuda. perhaps it would help to define what kuda-kuda is for our style?
***************
Kuda-kuda may varies, some people call different names but yet the purposes are the same, as a base to launch or to retreat after launch. Some people call it a free fighting stances or a neutral stances, etc. The most important is when you are in kuda-kuda, you should be familiar with your body, which part is cover and which part is not but can easily be cover in case is needed. At this stance, your weight must be in 50-50, your front leg is should be place in a way that will cover your groing shot from 12 o'clock, your both hands must be place in the manner that will cover in upper body or will be able to cover in an instant. Kuda-kuda is not part of langkah or stance. For example, either you do sepok, front stance or back stance..this stances are transition stances, you are not going to stay on this stances all the time. After your deliver your techniques you should trying to go back to kuda-kuda.
That's according to the old silat magazine that I just read last night :)
And I can be wrong too, can't wait to listen and learn from anybody.
Tristan

[bela diri]

Hi everyone

Just going to add my little bit to the Kuda Kuda discussion.kuda Kuda in our system is a kick from all fours, and is delivered from a low posture we call ria kuda. I also seen it used as defence and as a kick

regards
bela diri

[Orang Jawa]

Salam Bela Diri,
Just going to add my little bit to the Kuda Kuda discussion.kuda Kuda in our system is a kick from all fours, and is delivered from a low posture we call ria kuda. I also seen it used as defence and as a kick
**************
Kuda-kuda as a kick? Very interesting...Indeed! I may have to get in touch with Pak Kudding....
Do you know Pak Richard Kudding? Or Dr. Phil Davies?
Phil, Kartini, and one of his student took to to Indonesian Restaurant in Lincenster,Ldn. Good food indeed. Around midnight as we walked around the city. We went to the alley and Phil asked his student to demo his harimau form. He was a jollie good, abit stiff but have a good base, I was impressed.
Tristan O'Malley and is not related to any O'Malley anywhere :)

[Gajah Silat]

Hi everyone

Just going to add my little bit to the Kuda Kuda discussion.kuda Kuda in our system is a kick from all fours, and is delivered from a low posture we call ria kuda. I also seen it used as defence and as a kick

regards
bela diri

Our Kuda-Kuda is the bog standard horse stance. We do it low though!

Just out of interest, is the kick delivered..er face up or down, if you know what I mean? We have an 'all fours' kick too.

Ria kuda translated....is pretty much 'happy horse' :confused: Must be the Minangkabau sense of humour :D

Still if anyone fights low you guys are the lowest. We fight low, but jeez you need some serious legs for that Minang stuff.

Sorry Pak OJ, Pat O'Malley in a well respected FMA guy in the UK. Feeble attempt at a joke I know :o

[CQC]

Actually, there are many silat that doesn't employ any kuda-kuda.It varies on each perguruan.
********************
Huh???????
To my knowledge...which is not much at all. Traditional Silat always have kuda-kuda. As Tim said, it may vary in each system of silat, buy yet is there.
Unless you are talking the new and improve silat...:)
I'm the oldtimer, slower, and toothless, hairless, glasses, shortness, pennyless, and worthless.
Tristan

They say that when you're started to learn silat,you'll be taught to fight with lower stances (kuda-kuda rendah).Only masters are fighting with straightbacked posture.Some even fight with only a simplified version of every buah,( buah guru,or keputusan).

And no.Throughout my readings,every old silat has its own buah guru. Its only that it will be handed down from a master to another master.That one will take years.

[bela diri]

Hi every one

Do you know Pak Richard Kudding? Or Dr. Phil Davies? no sorry idon't know these people. As for the kick it is delivered face down so your back stays in line & we view from underneath, but the kick is done so quick your back up with something else to follow. Happy horse sounds good to me. We do fight low and can last along time in semi recumbant but can also fight standing to. We have a blend of most of the minangkabau systems to which gel well together i.e sterlak satria muda harimau setia hatia.

Now i got to go drive 150 miles to burn my legs out and learn some more. I like this topic this what a forum should be like no politics etc.......

[Narrue]

From a Chinese perspective Kuda-Kuda is called Mabu (horse riding stance). The Chinese view this stance as a Zhan Zhuang (standing pole) exercise i.e. it is viewed as a posture which promotes the circulation and buildup of Qi in the body. In China people can be seen early in the morning just standing in this posture motionless for long periods of time whilst concentrating on their breathing.

It is believed that standing in this posture:

*Increases blood circulation.
*Strengthens the respiratory system.
*Improves posture.
*Improves mental concentration/discipline.
*Develops strong legs.
*Develops rooting with the earth.
*Promotes circulation and increased Qi levels.

Here is a good article on the mechanics of horse riding stance http://www.cbox.cz/baguaquan/mabu-en.htm

Here is a photo of Grandmaster Chen Xiaowang practicing Zhan Zhuang (standing pole).

[Gajah Silat]

Thanks for the info Narrue....good link. & CQC informative as usual.

Bela Diri, sounds like the same kick! Haha shame on you stealing our moves :D nah, I've seen similar in many systems.

Would the opponent tend to fall in a position that would leave them open to all sorts of unpleasantaries? Landing face up on their back alongside you?

Edit. Hey BD we got the same birthday :)

[bela diri]

Hi every one

Narrue that posture is our siva kuda. ria is very lower than that. Today was two new kuda kuda drills which put a bit of the lumpat energy into them.

Can anyone help how do you attach pictures have tried does not seem to work for me.

Regards
bela diri

[Gajah Silat]

Go to the forum section and there is a thread on how to attach pics under Suggestions & Questions.

I recently had the same problem.

So, you drive all the way up to Yoker land? You ever meet a half Burmese Yorkshireman up there? Not sure if he still trains though.

[Sgt_Major]

check your file sizes if you are trying to attach, they are limited....

Is there any error message???

[Narrue]

Hi every one

Narrue that posture is our siva kuda. ria is very lower than that. Today was two new kuda kuda drills which put a bit of the lumpat energy into them

If you look at the link you will see that some people practice Zhan Zhuang with a very low deep stance indeed whilst others do it in a very upright stance.

How long do you hold the stance for and what is “lumpat energy”

This stance is the basis from which many TeNaga dalam exercises are practiced.

[Gajah Silat]

Lompat is literally jump! Kekuatan Lompat to be exact. Jumping energy/power.

However in context it is the old coiled spring cliche. You can get a lot of 'springy' power from the kuda-kuda

[bela diri]

yeah lompat its my birmingham accent sorry

regards
bela diri

[Narrue]

Lompat is literally jump! Kekuatan Lompat to be exact. Jumping energy/power.

However in context it is the old coiled spring cliche. You can get a lot of 'springy' power from the kuda-kuda

From a mechanical point of view standing motionless in deep Kuda-kuda won’t help much with being able to jump high.

If you cook a chicken you will see that the meat in the legs is dark whilst the breast meat is white. The reason for this is that there are two different types of muscle present, fast twitch muscle (breast) is white and slow twitch muscle (legs) is red.
For jumping you need to develop white twitch muscle for explosive movement. Standing motionless in deep Kuda-kuda will develop slow twitch muscle which is for endurance and not much help in jumping.
If you want to be able to jump high the training for that should be jumping, perhaps from Kuda-kuda.
In old times this was practiced by standing in a pit and jumping out but you could also practice jumping up onto a table as it’s the same thing.
This is more a mechanical point of view or muscle development for explosive movement as jumping energy is something quite different and developed in a different way but not unrelated.

[Gajah Silat]

yeah lompat its my birmingham accent sorry

regards
bela diri

That's Oroit yow :confused: :)

Narrue, it was only an assumption from translation. I may be totally wrong here, but I expect it may be more to do with the potentiel power generated from movement out of kuda kuda.

Certainly, we don't tend to hang around in kuda2, but it is more of a transitionary stance.

let's put it this way. Facing forward in kuda2, you step 180 to the left with your right leg whilst maintaining the same forward body position and foot position of the left leg. You have now wound up a serious amount of body torque. We do an elbow strike to the back of the opponents neck from that position that is totally evil :eek:

Dunno if this is what Bela 'brummie' diri meant, but I'm sure he'll elucidate.

Narrue, thanks for the new perspective on kuda2 and muscle development. I have been putting a lot of work into 'springing' up from low positions lately and have noticed a more distinct 'twang' that I'm getting from my legs.

You do realise I'm gonna be jumping out of kuda 2 now. I think I'll give the tables a miss though. If I broke the dining table I'd be daging kuda in no time :eek:

[Kiai Carita]

From a Chinese perspective Kuda-Kuda is called Mabu (horse riding stance).

Peace and blessings to all,

The word kuda-kuda means base although kuda does mean horse. In architecture, kuda-kuda is tha base that supports the roof, often shaped like and A-frame. The horse stance is one kuda-kuda, but there are many other types of kuda-kuda, beginning from lying on the floor, siting on the ground, till standing on one leg. All these base positions are called kuda-kuda.

When you talk about other MA in Indonesian you can also use the word kuda-kuda, thus there are obvious kuda-kuda in Karate and less obvious kuda-kuda in Boxing.

In the Chinese silat I learn we call kuda-kuda either kuda-kuda or beshi and we imagine that beshi is the Chinese word for kuda-kuda. Indonesia is a big place but China is even bigger.

Warm salaams to all,

KC.

[bela diri]

hi every one

Ok what i meant by lompat energy was the ability jump in and out of a posture. Remember that i see kuda kuda as a kick not as a posture (wheather this is right or wrong). Yesterday i was clearing the attack line by jumping sideways then jumping back into low posture to deliver the kick which follows through and back into upright posture thats all.

There is several variations on some of our low horse postures but its all to do with where the opponent is. I think we all have them its not new or secert its just another truth in combat where idea's concepts & systems over lap. This happens so much in silat thats why i am addicted to learning it. The learning curve ALWAYS rises and every lesson is challenge, constantly removing the comfort zone.

regards
bela brummie diri

[Gajah Silat]

Bela Diri,

This is what I thought, the energy created from moving in and out of kudu-kuda.

And we definitely do seem to some overlap between our respective styles :)

If move between langkahs there is always a kick there, but it's never obvious. And they are not kicks in the more cliched hollywood styles of MA kicks. Subtle and crafty they are!

At first when I was taught my initial langkahs I was a little bewildered when I was told 'thats also a kick' :confused:

But as you say, the learning curve rises, and with each lesson the subtleties become more apparent. Good stuff indeed!

[Orang Jawa]

Salam everyone,
Kiai you are absolutely right :)

>At first when I was taught my initial langkahs I was a little bewildered when I was told 'thats also a kick'
***********
I was buffled a bit when bela diri said kuda-kuda is a kick. ;(
And then GS saying the same thing? Now I understand why, at any time, you are lifting your leg either for weight-transfer/transition, that leg can be use to kicks or to sweep, etc. But that process alone is not kuda-kuda.
I agree with Kiai, kuda-kuda is a base, PERIOD :)

My dad was station in Bukit Tinggi for two years, I was 13 at that time. Lemme tell you, we had a lot of visitors, mostly silat elders to our house on weekend. I saw what a base it, it was ver low to the ground, like their butt just planted to the ground...what a painful exercise it was...
Tristan

[Gajah Silat]

Sorry Pak OJ,

I didn't mean that the actual Kuda-Kuda was a kick, it is a good solid base.

However, as you rightly said moving to and from kuda2 can be used for beset or sapu etc.

Aren't we all saying pretty much the same here?

[Kiai Carita]

...
I didn't mean that the actual Kuda-Kuda was a kick, it is a good solid base.

However, as you rightly said moving to and from kuda2 can be used for beset or sapu etc...

Tak ada kuda-kuda yang tak bisa digempur
Maka itu geseran adalah utama (Rendra)

There is no base that can't be crushed
So shifting is of paramount importance (Rendra)

For those of you who are not up-to-date on contemporary Indonesian poetry, Rendra is a famous Indonesian poet and silat practitioner, and my teacher.

Warm salaams to all,
KC.

[Narrue]

let's put it this way. Facing forward in kuda2, you step 180 to the left with your right leg whilst maintaining the same forward body position and foot position of the left leg. You have now wound up a serious amount of body torque. We do an elbow strike to the back of the opponents neck from that position that is totally evil :eek: :

O I see, you are talking about power developed from gelek (twisting)



You do realise I'm gonna be jumping out of kuda 2 now. I think I'll give the tables a miss though. If I broke the dining table I'd be daging kuda in no time :eek:

Yes jumping from horse stance will improve your ability to jump high. You could also try harimau jumping which uses the arms and legs at the same time. Footballers train bunny hops to improve leg strength but a friend of mine who recently had a knee operation says it was from doing such exercise that damaged his knees so I would not recommend bunny hops.

[Orang Jawa]

Yes jumping from horse stance will improve your ability to jump high. You could also try harimau jumping which uses the arms and legs at the same time. Footballers train bunny hops to improve leg strength but a friend of mine who recently had a knee operation says it was from doing such exercise that damaged his knees so I would not recommend bunny hops.
***********************
I respectfully disagree!
Horse stance will makes you feel immobilized to jump....Totally garbage!
Running start will help you to jump higher, have you ever saw how orang Nias jump?
Have you ever saw silat guys jump?, they usually have a running start. Some jump from the base but not from horse stance, usually from natural stance with the knee slightly bend and is use to spring upward.
A horse stance is a transitional stance just like front stance or cat stance, etc. Anyone that claim that they can fight with a horse stance as a base, either he/she never fight outside the perguruan/dojo or at the very least in the martial arts tournament. Unless you have a ball of steel or iron legs bolted to the ground :)
And I could be wrong too, as usual ;(
Tristan

[Narrue]

Running and jumping is just a way to build up momentum but that momentum is forward in the direction of running so the running does not help you jump higher but further i.e. in a horizontal direction. If you want to train jumping than you need to train in a vertical movement i.e. jumping upwards as this will build muscle in the same way squats build muscle. However the difference with squatting and jumping is that jumping will build the white fast twitch muscle needed for jumping.

[Orang Jawa]

Salam Narrue,
>Yes jumping from horse stance will improve your ability to jump high.
In my five decades of learning silat, I have never saw anyone jump from horse stance. Would you care to show me? I'm willing to listen and learn.
For exercise Yes, indeed. Its good to build a mucles group, but not to JUMP for the horse stance. At the very least I have never see it being done or I have never learn it. So take like it is.
And I could be wrong too,
Tristan

[Orang Jawa]

One more thing Narrue,
What is your purpose of jumping upward in silat? Especially from horse stance? My beginer's mind wonder...This is not a movie flick influence, right? :)
Tristan

[Narrue]

There is a difference from training and application. I am not saying that it is used in application but training. For example in fighting how do you apply a push up, sit-up, crunch etc etc, they are all used for training purposes and not application.

[Orang Jawa]

There is a difference from training and application. I am not saying that it is used in application but training.
*********************
Aha! We finally agree on something!:)

>For example in fighting how do you apply a push up, sit-up, crunch etc etc, they are all used for training purposes and not application
***************
Well we did differently than the masses, we tought to warm-up as student responsiblity. When the class start, we do not do those warm-up exercises. I would rather to repeat the juru hunderd time than push up hundred times. The muscles group use are different between push-up/sit-up than the actual silat practice.
I'm not saying the push-up/sit-up is wrong exercises and not beneficial to silat, I'm only saying that warm-up is good for warm-up.
And I could be wrong too,
Tristan

[bela diri]

hi Orang

wow you been learning silat for 50 years what systems have you learnt.

bela diri

[tim_stl]

In my five decades of learning silat, I have never saw anyone jump from horse stance.

in mande muda, some of the langkah harimau involve 'jumping' from horse stance to depok, and from depok to horse stance, but that's as close as we get.

the kuda-kuda my guru teaches includes the horse stance as well as other postures and stepping. sapu and 'stepping kicks' are taught from what we call jurus kaki.



tim

[silatkali75]

as tim stl said in mande-muda, we train kuda-kuda a few ways all in all there seems to be a strong emphasis on the strong fluid stance that doesn't leave the legs weak an open to attacks like a horse.

[tellner]

Tristan, I wanted to link to the kuda-kuda video clips on your website, but they have disappeared. Will they be back?

[Orang Jawa]

Hi Todd,
Hmm, I don't know..Last time I saw it worked...Got to call Gerry, huh?
Tristan