FMA is called FMA because...

[Em-em]

Ang hirap sabihin sa English. Paki-translate na lang po:

Kailan natin masasabi na ang isang Martial Art ay FMA?

[YODA]

Errrrrrrrr.........

Riiiiight.

[Em-em]

Uhmm, sorry about that. Maybe this thread should be closed. It's nonsense.

Kailan natin masasabi na ang isang Martial Art ay FMA? -- When can we say that a Martial Art is an FMA?

[DeeTee]

Ummm....when it's origins are Filipino? I'm only guessing.

[YODA]

I'm guessing you're guessing right Dee Tee :D

[juramentado]

Originally posted by Em-em
Uhmm, sorry about that. Maybe this thread should be closed. It's nonsense.

Kailan natin masasabi na ang isang Martial Art ay FMA? -- When can we say that a Martial Art is an FMA?

kung magtatanong ka sa forum na 'to, o maguumpisa ng thread, e paki sulat na lang sa English. Tandaan mo na puro dayuhan ang nandito at hindi nakakaintindi o nakakabasa ng tagalog, walang kwenta ang tanong mo kung wala naman makakaintindi.

at para sa sagot sa tanong mo, ang isang martial art ay FMA kung ang Pilipinas ang pinagmulan nito. Ang pangkaraniwan na tinatawag na FMA ang mga gumagamit ng mga sandata gaya ng baston, panaksak at itak. Pero sakop na rin sa FMA ng mga style na walang ginagamit na sandata, gaya ng sikaran at yaw-yan.

PM mo na lang ako kung malabo pa 'to sa iyo...

[YODA]

Yeah - what he said :D

[Em-em]

Originally posted by juramentado
kung magtatanong ka sa forum na 'to, o maguumpisa ng thread, e paki sulat na lang sa English. Tandaan mo na puro dayuhan ang nandito at hindi nakakaintindi o nakakabasa ng tagalog, walang kwenta ang tanong mo kung wala naman makakaintindi.

at para sa sagot sa tanong mo, ang isang martial art ay FMA kung ang Pilipinas ang pinagmulan nito. Ang pangkaraniwan na tinatawag na FMA ang mga gumagamit ng mga sandata gaya ng baston, panaksak at itak. Pero sakop na rin sa FMA ng mga style na walang ginagamit na sandata, gaya ng sikaran at yaw-yan.

PM mo na lang ako kung malabo pa 'to sa iyo...

If you're going to ask in this forum or start a thread, please write it in English. Remember that most of the readers here are foreigners and they can't understand or read tagalog. You're thread will be worthless if nobody can understand.

My answer to your question is that a martial art is called an FMA if it originared from the Philippines. Those which are usually called FMA uses baston, panaksak, and itak (large knives/ swords). However, it now includes styles without weapons such as sikaran and yawyaw.

Send me a PM if it's still unclear.

Ipagpaumanhin niyo. Hindi na po mauulit. (I'm sorry sir, it will never happen again)

[Jim]

Ummm, Em-Em didn't you start talking/typing tagalog?

[Em-em]

Uhmm, yes I did and Master Juramentado scolded me. I'm sorry for writing in Tagalog though... It will never happen again. Promise.

If there are stuff I'm going to write besides English, I'll remember to translate it. What I wrote up there is a translation of Master Juramentado's post...

[YODA]

Jim - em-ems post was a translation of juramentado's post.

[juramentado]

Originally posted by Em-em
Uhmm, yes I did and Master Juramentado scolded me. I'm sorry for writing in Tagalog though... It will never happen again. Promise.

If there are stuff I'm going to write besides English, I'll remember to translate it. What I wrote up there is a translation of Master Juramentado's post...

LOL Let's get one thing very clear. I'm no Master. I just live here. :D So please don't call me that.

I've used tagalog here and in other forums but only if

a) I'm sure the other person/s know tagalog
b) it's something that will only make sense or matter to the other person

in most cases, I stick to English. It's the polite thing to do. :)

Don't sweat it, no harm done...

[saikyou]

if it originates in the Philippines. that's why its called Filipino Martial Arts Right?

hmm... ironic. I think most of the practitioners of FMA here are foreigners and not Filipinos. Am I right? correct me if Im wrong. Still, Im happy that FMA had international exposure.

[juramentado]

Originally posted by saikyou

hmm... ironic. I think most of the practitioners of FMA here are foreigners and not Filipinos. Am I right? correct me if Im wrong. Still, Im happy that FMA had international exposure.

PM sana kita pero mukhang ayaw mong gumamit nun kaya dito ko na lang isasaad yung sagot ko sa 'yo...

oo nga, mas maraming dayuhan ang nagaaral ng FMA. Hindi kasi binibigyan ng halaga ng mga kababayan natin ang FMA . Ibang MA ang pinagaaralan, kaya lumilipat ang mga guro ng FMA sa ibang bansa at dun nagtuturo, sa mga tao na gustong natuto.

E ikaw, nagaral ka ba ng FMA or nagaaral ngayon ng FMA?

Kung nagaral ka na dati, mabuti naman...kailangan nating bigyan ng halaga ang sariling MA natin. Hindi masama ang magaral ng ibang MA pero dapat lang na matuto din ng FMA kundi mapapahiya ka lang na Pinoy ka at ang mga dayuhan pa ang mas nakakaalam ng FMA kasya sa 'yo. Kahihiyan yun....

Kung nagaaral ka ng FMA ngayon, maraming salamat ang sana ituloy mo ang pagaaral mo. Damihan nating ang nagaaral ng FMA ang ibalik ang galing sa bansa natin.

:)

Note: nothing important in my reply..just Filipino chat. Wanted to send him a PM but it's disabled..

[DeeTee]

Hi Saikyou,

Look at the multitudes that practice Karate around the globe. That doesn't take away the fact that it's origins are and always will be Japanese.

I'm not quite sure I understand your point. Could you please explain further.

[saikyou]

Hmm... so thats the reason. thanks for that post Juramentado.
As for your question, Im interested in Dumog.(i love grappling) I saw a book about it. Its called "Dumog: Presas Style." Its really good. I never tried it coz of the lack of instructor.(so they went to other countries...) how about you Juramentado, whats your FMA/MA?
as for me, my main MA is Judo.

I'll have a chance to learn arnis coz somebody told me that arnis will be our PE next year.(im a sophomore college student) it will be cool. Im not sure but Im looking forward to it.

As for your question DeeTee, Im asking if the majority of FMA practitioners are foreigners.

Your right DeeTee. Karate is practiced around the world but it is still known as a Japanese MA. I hope that even if the majority of practitioners of FMA are foreigners, it will always be known that it originated here in the Philippines.

[Em-em]

juramentado -- do you know any good books that deals with FMA? I think this will be a very good topic for a research paper...

[juramentado]

There are a number of books on FMA in general. Mark Wiley wrote 2 books, Filipino Martial Culture and Filipino Fighting Arts.

It should be pointed out that not everyone thinks highly of Mark Wiley's work. I've heard of claims of bias and stuff. But I've read the first book I mentioned and it's ok. Just read from various sources and make your own conclusions.

If I remember right, Edgar Sulite wrote a book on Filipino Martial Arts but I can't recall the title.

The other FMA related books are mostly about a specific style or system.

[juramentado]

Originally posted by saikyou
Hmm... so thats the reason. thanks for that post Juramentado.
As for your question, Im interested in Dumog.(i love grappling) I saw a book about it. Its called "Dumog: Presas Style." Its really good. I never tried it coz of the lack of instructor.(so they went to other countries...) how about you Juramentado, whats your FMA/MA?
as for me, my main MA is Judo.

I'll have a chance to learn arnis coz somebody told me that arnis will be our PE next year.(im a sophomore college student) it will be cool. Im not sure but Im looking forward to it.

As for your question DeeTee, Im asking if the majority of FMA practitioners are foreigners.

Your right DeeTee. Karate is practiced around the world but it is still known as a Japanese MA. I hope that even if the majority of practitioners of FMA are foreigners, it will always be known that it originated here in the Philippines.


There are already some groups teaching dumog exclusively but most weapons-based FMA styles include dumog as part of their system.

I'm studying Pekiti-Tirsia Kali right now after studying aikido for a number of years.

Arnis (by which I presume modern arnis) is just one of probably hundreds of styles of FMA in the country, some of which are still being taught only to clan members. Here's a list of FMA schools in Metro Manila.

http://www.soapbox.101.com/fmalist (htt[://www.soapbox101.com/fmalist)

FMA is not just sticks and I'm glad that you've got an interest in dumog. Unfortunately, to most Filipinos in the country, FMA is just sticks and they don't study it long enough to understand the depth of FMA's technical foundation.

Some styles have more stick techniques and less of the rest, like knife techniqes and empty hand techniques. Others have it the other way around, with more knfie and empty hand applications than other styles.

After you get a taste of FMA at school, I suggest you go further and investigate the other styles in the list. You will find a verydiverse culture of Filipino fighting system. Just keep learning and help keep FMA alive.

:)

[DeeTee]

Hi Saikyou,

I think we are saying the same things.

I can honestly say that in over 22 years of training, every single person I've met in the FMA have acknowledged the fact that the Philippines is the home of whatever style they are studying that comes under that umbrella. As Juromentado says, there are so many different styles of FMA, many of them being family systems that see little exposure outside of their own immediate environment let alone the west. I also agree with him when he says that the interest amongst the younger generations in the Philippines is minimal. There have been and continues to be attempts to reverse this by introducing Arnis into the school curriculums but from what I've seen and heard it doesn't seem to be making much progress. I think the problem may stem from the fact that the majority of instructors teaching it in the colleges there have only done short courses on Arnis and have only been exposed to a small percentage of the art rather than someone who has a history and fuller understanding of it. Certainly from the few people I've spoken to there who have studied in college they haven't been impressed with it enough to persue their training beyond the classroom - which is a real pity. I wish you luck and success in your training and that in time Arnis receives the recognition it deserves in its homeland as a truely wonderfull art.

[krys]

There are already some groups teaching dumog exclusively but most weapons-based FMA styles include dumog as part of their system.

I would not say that; some older styles do, many modern styles also (but is it really filipino Dumog or jj-Judo-wrestling mix?) but
..... Dumog is traditionaly practiced separately from Arnis......
You don't need to know Arnis to practice Dumog....


Here are some counterexamples:

Some of my friends are Kalingas-Ifugaos practicing Dumog and they never learned Arnis....

Dumog is not practiced in the muslim filipino areas and there are many "escrima" systems there....

One of my former silat classmate is a WEDO Arnis master -Dumog-Sikaran champion from Panay, and he teaches Dumog separately.....

There is no Dumog in the traditional Arnis styles I study..... and the older arnisadors (friends of my Master and GM) I use to talk with never learned Dumog.....


It is a misconception to think that all Arnis styles have all forms of empty hands (Dumog, "Panantukan", Sikaran....)....


Mabuhay ang filipino Silat at Arnis.

[saikyou]

the dumog that i know doesnt use any weapons. it uses holds and throws

[Em-em]

Uhhh, what's Dumog? How is it different from Escrima/ Arnis?

What FMAs were adopted from our Muslim counterparts?

I understand that Arnis isn't only about sticks, it also utilizes swords. Can anybody please elaborate this...

[saikyou]

Originally posted by Em-em
Uhhh, what's Dumog? How is it different from Escrima/ Arnis?


this is written by Leo Gaje Jr.

The Dumog techniques are similar to Menang kabaw. As a matter of fact, the word Kabaw is an Ilonggo term, meaning Carabao or in short Kabaw. There are interrelated techniques in each art that speaks the continuity of the art with relationship to the Philippines, Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand and Madagascar. There is much deeper history in the next issue.

Pangamut (Hands/Interlocking/Counterlocking)
Hubad-hubad Pasugat - Counter Release, Release and Recounter

Uyat sa Li-og (Neckhold)

Neckhold can be done either by left had or right hand. This motion is executed when there is an opening by the opponent during the positioning either as a bait or actual opening entry.

Uyat sa Abaga (Shoulder hold)

Shoulder hold from neck hold, the hand slides to the shoulder area in preparation to insert the hand over the back and down to the armpit.

Dungan/Kapot sa Li-og (Hold together)

Both hands are placed over the neck area and both hands are brought to one shoulder for controlling the balance.

Singa Sag-ang (Snapping the chin)

Either the right hand or left hand holds the chin in rapid motion applied as a snapping motion in order to out-balance the opponent.

Tulod sa Dug-han (Pushing the chest)

Both hands slide down to the chest from the neck or shoulder area, then with sudden motion apply the rugged push to the chest with continuous dragging motion until the opponent is brought to the corner or section so that he cannot move.

Uyat sa Butkon (Hold the forearm)

To hold the forearm with right or left hand in preparation for arm leverage throw.

Uyat sa Bati-is (Grabbing the lower leg)

This is applied in case the opponent is off-time, the timing must be precise during the time of execution. This is the most difficult part during the Dumog.

[Em-em]

Saikyou -- I can see that most of the words used are either Bisaya/Ilonggo(Philippine languages apart from Tagalog) or something like it. So is this from Iloilo?


Juramentado -- what do you mean by the "depth of FMA's technical foundation"? I thought you said it is more on the basics.

[krys]

Em-em,


Dumog is the filipino form of wrestling....

Filipino Muslims practice many different martial arts: Escrima, judo combat, around one hundred styles silat, many styles of kuntao ....

There are two forms of muslim Kuntao: one like silat, the other a kind of very hard external kung fu (introduced by some chinese traders in the 15 century and+).

Actually filipino muslims down south didn't call their weapon arts Escrima, Arnis, or Kali....

My Basilan blade art is called "to use the bolo", but it is easier to say escrima than to use the local dialect so we adopted the word escrima recently...

Usually muslim filipino are very secretive and it is extremely difficult to learn the arts from them..... it took one of my Sama friends five years to admit that he practices Kuntao for over 35 years.....
Inside one clan you can have a silat grandmaster and only two or three members of the family will know it....

By the way if you are from Bukidnon did you hear of the martial arts practiced by the Lumads?

All the best,
Mabuhay ang filipino Silat at Arnis.

[juramentado]

Originally posted by Em-em
Saikyou -- I can see that most of the words used are either Bisaya/Ilonggo(Philippine languages apart from Tagalog) or something like it. So is this from Iloilo?


Juramentado -- what do you mean by the "depth of FMA's technical foundation"? I thought you said it is more on the basics.


Speaking from my experience in Pekiti-Tirsia, there's lots more to FMA sticks. We also study knife techniques, empty hand striking and grappling (dumog). It's very much a complete system. The weapons movements are the basic foundation and just about everything I've studied stems from that.

Krys obvious has quite a bit more exposure to others style than me. :) As far as Pekiti-Tirsia is concerned, dumog is part of the system. I've seen some modern arnis demos with dumog being performed but I'm not entirely sure how much of it is being taught in that style.

[Em-em]

Originally posted by krys
Em-em,

By the way if you are from Bukidnon did you hear of the martial arts practiced by the Lumads?



Good question. Nope, never heard.

Actually, I know that they do fight but I thought there was no formal system.

I used to see them integrate mock fights with their dancing during Kaamulan with their spears and shields. I believe they also used various weapons like the bow and arrow, a sword, and they put poison on the tips of their weapons. Is that what you're talking about? So what's it called? Please tell me more about this.

I used to study and perform their dances and chants even though I'm a lowlander. It was integrated in our PE class or it was specially taught to those who are going to represent the school during a Seminar/Congress/etc.

So it's not right to say that FMA is mostly practiced by foreigners?
Can I conclude that most of it are closely guarded secrets that's why we thought it was not popular?

Note:
Lumad -- an ethnic tribe residing in Central Mindanao (Southern Philippines)

Bukidnon -- a province in Central Mindanao

Kaamulan -- a annual gathering of the seven tribes in Bukidnon

[krys]

I am not really familiar with the Lumads but a Tausug once told me of a tribe of Mindanao where martial arts were practiced could be the Bagobos or Manuvus but I am not really sure...

If the Bukidnons practice martial arts chances are they are hiding it.... but it could also be that they lost them... gun culture, foreign martial arts.....

I think quite a few filipino mountain tribes practiced martial arts, I myself once saw two Mangyan barangay tanods practicing locking in Mindoro, when they saw me watching them they stoped, and somebody else observed other mangyans practicing knive fighting.......

In Bicol lives the tribe of the Cimarrones... they had a well developped martial art (with good empty hands), i heard that one of their martial art master still lives as an ermit there ( he stoped teaching and is only practicing hilot), but the art is nearly extinct....


Unfortunately I would say fmas today are mostly practiced-promoted by foreigners...

My teachers told me
that many fmas were only taught in secret in the clan-tribe or to a few selected individuals.... The arts were never taught to large groups......

The masters never wanted to have large groups of students, just enough to preserve the arts, often the less the better.....

Traditional Arnis training is hard, and boring at the begining, the master usually wants to test the motivation-morality of the student before going deep into the art...
(I really wanted to run away after my first lesson of traditional Arnis ;) ).
To learn filipino silat or filipino muslim martial arts is even more difficult as masters are usually hiding......


Today few peoples won't take this kind of training, besides many old GMs didn't see the need to advertise... many filipinos have also other concerns than learning martial arts given the economic situation...
These are reasons explaining why traditional fmas are disapearing.....



Mabuhay ang filipino Silat at Arnis.

[Em-em]

It's disappearing because people doesn't know about it, but maybe we're led to believe that way... What do you guys thnk?

[saikyou]

Originally posted by Em-em
Saikyou -- I can see that most of the words used are either Bisaya/Ilonggo(Philippine languages apart from Tagalog) or something like it. So is this from Iloilo?


I don't know but but according to some of my resources(websites) Dumog can be found mostly in the Southern part of Negros Island and in the island of Panay in the province of Antique. This can be found in small barrios mostly farmers where Dumog became a past time, an entertainment and a form of survival.

[krys]

Dumog (filipino wrestling) is found among many tribes of the Philippines islands....

It is practiced by Ifugaos twho use it to settle disputes, the Mangyans of Mindoro also practice it but won't usually show it to outsiders....

Actually there are different styles of Dumog, then you have competition Dumog, self defense Dumog.....

I used to fight a few times with a Dumuguero in QC (competition Dumog), the goal was to bring the opponents back to the ground.....

Mabuhay ang filipino Silat at Arnis.

[Em-em]

Uhh, is Silat and Arnis the same art with a different name?

[YODA]

No

Eskrima, Kali and Arnis are basically the same, and there ARE some southern styles in the PI that use the term Silat - but in general Silat refers to the Indonesian arts.

[Em-em]

PI? Phiippine Islands?

[YODA]

PI = Philippines - yes

[Em-em]

Is it in favor of Islam? There are a lot of Muslims in the south and Indonesia is a major Islamic nation.

[YODA]

Yes - many Indonesian style are interwoven with their religion.

[Em-em]

What's the difference between Arnis and Silat, besides its religious background?

[krys]

No

Eskrima, Kali and Arnis are basically the same, and there ARE some southern styles in the PI that use the term Silat - but in general Silat refers to the Indonesian arts.

There are around one hundred silat styles in the southern Philippines..... Just hidden from the public............


Silat is not an all Indonesian art., you can find it in whole south east asia...... we have nothing to envy to Indonesian silat!
Many silat systems have been watered down in some countries to attract students or for public image....
This is not the case in the southern Philippines, there is still heavy fighting going on....
Our arts have been kept pure and deadly, they are not commercial or advertised.....
If you learn filipino silat you'll learn traditional arts that really works......

Actually many filippino muslims think that escrima comes from Silat.....

Most silat syles are linked to Islam, but you don't need to be muslim to learn it....

What's the difference between Arnis and Silat, besides its religious background?

There are also muslim Arnis styles (I learn one, completely different footwork).....

Usually in Silat you think that weapons are extensions of the hands...... in Arnis you have the opposite....
Actually in SIlat you start by learning empty hands, weapons are introduced a few years later.....


Be carefull of these so called Kali-Silat syles in the Philippines. The term Kali was never used by filipino muslims....., it cannot be original filipino arts....
Some peoples just went to Indonesia, learned some silat and mixed it up with northern Arnis....

All the best, if you have some questions on southern arts just ask...

Mabuhay ang filipino Silat at Arnis.

[Em-em]

Originally posted by krys

This is not the case in the southern Philippines, there is still heavy fighting going on....
Our arts have been kept pure and deadly


Krys -- Scary. Aren't you afraid of the ongoing war down south/Mindanao? How far are you from the battlefield?

Btw, if you happen to be in Mindanao on March, visit the Kaamulan festival. I assure you you'll enjoy it.

*espiya ka ba? joke*

[krys]

Krys -- Scary. Aren't you afraid of the ongoing war down south/Mindanao? How far are you from the battlefield?

Btw, if you happen to be in Mindanao on March, visit the Kaamulan festival. I assure you you'll enjoy it.

*espiya ka ba? joke*

Secreto na lang haha!....


Yes I was in some hot places two times, and I already heard bullets rain.....
Actually one of my mentors was in the battlefield (Islands of the Sulu sea-Mindanao) from 72-82 fighting against Marcos troups....

Sadly Mindanao is still a shooting range for the AFP....

Yes I would like to see this festival, if I happen to be in Mindanao at that time I'll check it out...

Just wonder if you are in UPD are you considering joining one of the Arnis groups there?

All the best,
Mabuhay ang filipino Silat at Arnis.

[Em-em]

Originally posted by krys
Secreto na lang haha!....



I knew it! LOL

It's a pity really, about the ongoing war. I wonder why it doesn't end. It's hard to accept that people are killing each other in my own backyard. :woo: It's been going on for 4 centuries!!

My dad was a PC during the Marcos era, retiring soon. Small world noh? You're a student of one the activists and my papa was a martial law soldier...

I have no plans to join the arnis club right now, but I think Im going to take it as my PE next sem.

I've stopped training for awhile... it's finals season
*Really... espiya ka talaga ano?:D *:cool: cool

[krys]

It's a pity really, about the ongoing war. I wonder why it doesn't end. It's hard to accept that people are killing each other in my own backyard. It's been going on for 4 centuries!!


There are lots of economic reasons...... war and unstability are benefiting to different groups of peoples (trapos, businessmen, military, foreign interests)...

One PMA graduate told me once that Mindanao is the AFPs unofficial shooting range.... the army has lots of reasons to keep this going on, but there are other major players invoved with different agendas....

This is really sad as Mindanao is a wonderfull island.


I have no plans to join the arnis club right now, but I think Im going to take it as my PE next sem.

I've stopped training for awhile... it's finals season

Yes I was at UPD three weeks ago and it seemed to be exam season....
I think there is a girl from the Lightning Scientific Arnis group teaching at PE level...

All the best,
Mabuhay ang filipino SIlat at Arnis.

[Em-em]

I went down to memory lane and I just realized that my Karate instructor in Bukidnon injected FMA rules during our training.

1)He never taught us advanced katas and invited other instructors to teach us.

2)He only focused on the basics of sparring.

3)He brought a knife in the dojo and taught us how to avoid it ( it wasn't taught in other Karate classes)

4)He told us not to tell anyone that we are training MA

5)He taught us for free

[saikyou]

i like number 5. I envy you.

[Em-em]

Yeah, but what I've said has its bad points. For example, we can't compete in standard Kata competitions... but we're pretty good in sparring.

[saikyou]

so you really like kata competition huh? why not join a kumite competition?

[Em-em]

I will, someday. Mom and Dad says no, you know how much we respect our parents' decisions. But maybe I'll join the liga this sembreak. TKD. :D I'll beg for their permission.

[saikyou]

parents... he he he. I have a little problem w/ mah parents too. My dad wanted me to end my dreams of becoming a top martial artist and pursue basketball instead. why does every parent think that MA is all about violence?

I hope that you get that permission. goodluck!

[Em-em]

Bruce Lee and Christianity. You know what I mean...

Thanks, pray I will.

You must be popular :D

[saikyou]

yeah. that's why its called an art. art is different from brawling.

me popular? oi hinde ha! :)

[Martelo3000]

:) Parents! I hear you!

I'm a Filipino Canadian and was forced to study Judo when I was nine. Later, I studied a Chinese martial art for 8 years. I only discovered FMA 3 years ago and train 3-5 times a week now and have dedicated myself to it.

My elderly parents think I'm wasting too much of my time and energy instead of my career and settling down. My father doesn't believe that FMA's even exist anymore just because he never saw it around when he was growing up (just guns and grenades).

It was "nice" in a strange way to read your posts.