New to Kempo.

[tw0scoops]

I'm actually new to Martial Arts period. 24 yrs old...hope I'm not too old to start. I'm going to start taking a Okinowan(spelling?) Kempo with a mix of Brazilian Ju-jitsu. Can any1 give me an thoughts on this combination? Can any1 give me some insight into what these systems involve(i know BJJ is mostly submissions and locks? And how practical it is in the "real" world?

I was looking into MT, but the closest gym I could find was a 45 min drive. Plus I keep hearing that MT can be bad for your shins and joints. I might like to try MT at some point, but maybe when I can find a closer gym.

I'm looking for a challenge and since graduating college, just cross-training and weight lifting has ben getting kinda slow. I need more of a physical challenge(I used to be a swimmer).

[dbmasters]

Oh jeez, BJJ is probably one of the most practical in the real world (IMHO)...there are lots of great standup martial artists, that, once on the ground, don't know what to do...a mix of standup and ground fighting is great.

[Colin Linz]

Welcome to the martial arts. Your never too old to start, 25 years old is still quite young. I’m sorry I can’t comment much on your selected styles as I know little about either of them. I will say, and I know that many people will disagree, that possibly two styles as a beginner may be too confusing. If you do train in both styles remember not to practice bjj in kempo or visa versa, or tell one teacher he is wrong because the other teacher says something else. Give them both time so that you understand what it is they are teaching, don’t think that something is useless because you can’t do it. This is often not the techniques fault, but rather the person’s lack of understanding of the technique.

[tw0scoops]

Hm, well ok. We'll see how it goes. I have a "trial" class on monday.

[Colin Linz]

I hope it goes well for you.

[dbmasters]

I started at 37, so I certainly hope 25 isn't too old :-) I train in Kenpo, Kickboxing and a little JuiJitsu and my instructor encourages me to blend them, as that is how you develop a well rounded fighting style...the person you are fighting in the real world doesn't care if it's true JiuJitsu, Kenpo or whatever, and you should either, just win. I have found BJJ and Kenpo to be very complimentary in many ways, many techniques to get someone to the ground, then techniques to use ON the ground...

Enjoy your training.

[tw0scoops]

I started at 37, so I certainly hope 25 isn't too old :-) I train in Kenpo, Kickboxing and a little JuiJitsu and my instructor encourages me to blend them, as that is how you develop a well rounded fighting style...the person you are fighting in the real world doesn't care if it's true JiuJitsu, Kenpo or whatever, and you should either, just win. I have found BJJ and Kenpo to be very complimentary in many ways, many techniques to get someone to the ground, then techniques to use ON the ground...

Enjoy your training.


Coool Thanks! One question. I know it differs between teachers, but you don't start sparring right away do you? Just nervous since I never took any martial arts before or wrestled in school. Just kinda wondering how you "jump in the pool" Cuz I know in a lot of MA's you don't start sparing until you have some experience under your belt, or someone might get hurt. Right?

[KenpoDavid]

Kempo is usually taught using technique combinations against a specific attack. Depending on your school, you will make more or less contact while practicing the combos. As you advance you will up the level of speed and contact. At some point you will start to learn how to apply the elemetns you are learning in the combos in a free-style manner against unstructored attacks. You may also get into sparring.

BJJ is typcially not taught this way. You will look at the principles and specific transitions between positions. Smaller pieces than kempo combos. Typcially you will start free-styling with otehr studetns much earlier.

I think this is because it is less likely to get injured rolling than punching, with no experience.

[tw0scoops]

Yeah, I figured that about BJJ.

[dbmasters]

Yeah, BJJ I did some live rolling my first night...it's harder to get "hurt" in BJJ (unless you are slow to tap) since it's more gentle, it's not punching and kicking, it's grappling. And that kind of thing you have to learn by doing from the beginning, not much you can just do in the air like other MA's.

I can't speak of Kempo, I train Kenpo, but we do any given technique in the air a few times and then do it hands on with partners, not "sparring" just trying the technique on a willing, cooperative partner.

For BJJ, I gotta tell you this, your body will go thru a conditioning stage...for the first month or two your rib cage and neck will hurt, you'll be getting bruises on your upper arms and other places just from the grabbing, pulling and pushing on your arms and neck and the rib cage from the pressure...just suck it up and deal with it, it'll go away once your body gets conditioned to it...just fair warning.

[tw0scoops]

For BJJ, I gotta tell you this, your body will go thru a conditioning stage...for the first month or two your rib cage and neck will hurt, you'll be getting bruises on your upper arms and other places just from the grabbing, pulling and pushing on your arms and neck and the rib cage from the pressure...just suck it up and deal with it, it'll go away once your body gets conditioned to it...just fair warning.

LOL. And I was getting Muay Thai was bad for your body...I can't believe that would be much better:-P

[dbmasters]

LOL. And I was getting Muay Thai was bad for your body...I can't believe that would be much better:-P
Oh, JiuJitsu is like a visit to a chiropractor, you get handled brutally at time. It's fun and great exersize...but it hurts for a while.

[Les]

Oh jeez, BJJ is probably one of the most practical in the real world (IMHO)...there are lots of great standup martial artists, that, once on the ground, don't know what to do...a mix of standup and ground fighting is great.

I'm sorry to disagree, but I don't think so.

While you're rolling around on the ground making guy #1 submit, his buddies are kicking you in the head, back, kidneys etc.

If he's alone, and he submits, what next? Do you let him get up to have another go at you? Maybe he'll get lucky next time, or pull a knife.

BJJ is good, but how long do you have to train before you learn to throw two or three guys at once?

Les

[dbmasters]

I'm sorry to disagree, but I don't think so.

While you're rolling around on the ground making guy #1 submit, his buddies are kicking you in the head, back, kidneys etc.

If he's alone, and he submits, what next? Do you let him get up to have another go at you? Maybe he'll get lucky next time, or pull a knife.

BJJ is good, but how long do you have to train before you learn to throw two or three guys at once?

Les
pfffft, OK Bruce Lee, when was the last time you actually threw two or three guys at once outside your classroom...ummm, never.

[Doc C.]

pfffft, OK Bruce Lee, when was the last time you actually threw two or three guys at once outside your classroom...ummm, never.
When was the last time you saw two guys rolling around on the ground that weren't drunk?

[Les]

pfffft, OK Bruce Lee, when was the last time you actually threw two or three guys at once outside your classroom...ummm, never.

This is actually the point I was making. :bang:

If the attacker is not alone, how can you grapple/throw/pin down more than one of them.

I was making a valid point, to which I was hoping for sensible responses, rather than childish retorts which suggest that you have no answer to the question.

Les

[dbmasters]

How does whether they were drunk or not matter? Most bar-fights and crap like that I have ever seen wind up on the ground at some point. If you want to truly learn a good self-defense system, knowing your way around on the ground is essential...or at the very least very helpful.

[dbmasters]

This is actually the point I was making. :bang:

If the attacker is not alone, how can you grapple/throw/pin down more than one of them.

I was making a valid point, to which I was hoping for sensible responses, rather than childish retorts which suggest that you have no answer to the question.

Les
Well, it does stand to reason any situation is assessed at that moment. Sure, if there are 4 guys waiting to kick your ass taking one to the ground likely isn't the best solution, but then, if four guys are waiting to kick your ass your best solution is to run like a bat out of hell...if you don't, the chances are very high you are gonna, if fact, get your ass kicked...unless one believes all those Jackie Chan movies.

[Les]

Well, it does stand to reason any situation is assessed at that moment. Sure, if there are 4 guys waiting to kick your ass taking one to the ground likely isn't the best solution, but then, if four guys are waiting to kick your ass your best solution is to run like a bat out of hell...if you don't, the chances are very high you are gonna, if fact, get your ass kicked...unless one believes all those Jackie Chan movies.

Suppose there are two attackers. is taking one of them to the ground a viable option?

Suppose you are in a situation where you can't "run like a bat out of hell"?

As I said originally, BJJ is great, I'm not disputing that, but I prefer to have ground fighting as a secondary rather than a primary defence. It seems logical to me to have the tools to defend myself while upright first, and have the groundfighting skills as a back-up.

Les

[dbmasters]

Suppose there are two attackers. is taking one of them to the ground a viable option?

Suppose you are in a situation where you can't "run like a bat out of hell"?

As I said originally, BJJ is great, I'm not disputing that, but I prefer to have ground fighting as a secondary rather than a primary defence. It seems logical to me to have the tools to defend myself while upright first, and have the groundfighting skills as a back-up.

Les
That said, I have little disagreement...I would prefer to defend myself on my feet as well, but, unfortunately it's not always up to me where I defend myself...it's good to be prepared.

I always have a knee-jerk reaction when people start with the "well, if many people are attacking you..." type senarios, because, while they do happen, and while many of us do train for defending against multiple opponents to some degree, too many people think they have a chance against many people, and outside of Hollywood movies, it's not typically the case. A couple, perhaps, maybe even three...but unless it's a movie fight where only one is actually attacking at any given moment, I suggest running. if you can't, bend over the kiss your ass goodbye.

[Bomber]

As Rorion Gracie keeps saying in the "Gracie in Action video", 90% of fights go to the floor. However I would add 99.99% of fights start standing up. That said I have found that quite often if you do take an opponent to the floor and start pounding him, his mates will lose their bottle and don't always join in.

[Doc C.]

As Rorion Gracie keeps saying in the "Gracie in Action video", 90% of fights go to the floor. However I would add 99.99% of fights start standing up. That said I have found that quite often if you do take an opponent to the floor and start pounding him, his mates will lose their bottle and don't always join in.
And he is wrong. Fights in this country do not go to the ground. They've been successful selling that for a long time and it simply isn't true in the American Culture. In fact in our modern American Street Culture everyone knows being on the ground is so dangerous, 2 people will actually fall down disengage, stand up and start all over agin rather than be on the ground. The consequences are just too great.

In some South American Countries where a culture suggests when 2 guys get into it, everyone clears a space and 'watches the fight,' like in our old west movies, doesn't exist here. People will put a boot to the head of a guy on the ground when they don't know either one of the fighters.

BJJ is great but is based on sport wrestling, and therefore they train to compete not fight. Are they tough, of course but so are NFL linebackers, but that don't make them great fighters just great competitors in good physical condition. After 30 + years of law enforcement on the street, the scenarios they paint I've never seen except outside the bars after closing between a couple of drunks who are too juiced to realize they're on the ground.

[dbmasters]

Thats interesting, I actually train with a couple local police in BJJ...they have said it's very valuable.

[MaxG]

Anyone denying that a decent ground game is ESSENTIAL to self defense is deluding themselves. That being said Mario Sperry (one of the most successful Vale Tudo fighters in current times) has stated that BJJ in modern times is being diluted to a sport with too much emphasis on tournaments.

I've been to all the BJJ schools in my area. Not one of them had a decent weapon defense program or a realistic answer to the question "How do you know they're not packing a knife or something when you hit the ground?"

A true martial artist can and should blend stand up and ground and not do it to earn "points" but to effectively defend yourself in all situations.

[Doc C.]

Thats interesting, I actually train with a couple local police in BJJ...they have said it's very valuable.
Don't misunderstand me sir. I am not in anyway suggesting that ground skills in general aren't necessary, and I believe they are. However sport wrestling is not the answer to the problem, nor is it the panacea some would sell you with statements like, "All fights go to ther ground." The experiences of my fellow officers and myself, along with the FBI statistics debunk that perspective. Here in Los Angeles where I am based, I have contact with many of the martial art styles and schools, often when I am working. The story from one gentleman who quite the Gracies was centered around the answer to his question, "What if there is more than one guy?" The instructors answer was, "If there is more than one guy you're dead anyway." In short, they're in business and promote their business model of fighting and self defense only. The difference is, I would never tell someone not to learn to grapple, anymore than I would tell a guy who thinks he'll never be in deep water to not learn to swim.

[Les]

I have found that quite often if you do take an opponent to the floor and start pounding him, his mates will lose their bottle and don't always join in.


Quite often isn't really going to cut it for me.

If I find myself in a situation where I may be injured or even killed I don't want to rely on a strategy that works 'quite often'

I have a student who holds a Brown Belt in Jui Jutsu and experience has taught me that if he gets me on the ground I'm in trouble.

But experience has taught HIM that it's not going to be that easy. Obviously, when we 'play' we are using control, but his three years in Kenpo enable him to recognise that in reality he may not be there to grapple with me.

Les

[Les]

I actually train with a couple local police in BJJ...they have said it's very valuable.

Of course it is!

Police Officers are required to use 'Control & Restraint' to subdue a suspect, not slug it out with them.

They have strict guidelines to work within, and don't want to be disciplined, demoted, fired, or have a member of the public sue them.

The Police Officer in the course of his duties is a different situation to the one we are discussing.

Les

[dbmasters]

I guess there is a difference among people's view of BJJ skewed by where/how they train...the BJJ I have trained in is at an MMA gym, probably much different than BJJ taught in a sport/tournament training facility.

[Spyke]

At my school we practise sparring against two opponents where you are only allowed to defend. Techniques we have learnt make taking it to the ground a useful alternative, if running away isn't.

Taking one of multiple assaliants to the floor and controlling them can send an appropriate message to the rest of them. Remember if you have someone tapping out while controlling their arm (in training), pushing it further will break something (hopefuly not in training).

Threaten them with busting their mates arm/wrist/elbow/shoulder/all of the above will certainly distract them long enough for you to either flee, or break something then flee. Of course it may just make them madder...

The importance of cardio training again asserts itself.

obviously this isn't the best course of action, you practise techniques with a view to them being useful in a self defense capacity, but nothing is fool-proof.

this is just my opinion and will no doubt be ripped to shreds, just thought I'd chime in tho :cool:

[kempojosh]

you never know what to expect when you get into a fight, so you need to be prepared. if there are more than one person attacking you, you have two options run or fight. if you are in a situation where you can not run, then your only option is to fight. in that case you have to decide what you are going to do. if you pick out one of the attackers and go after him and brake an arm or punch the guy in the throat, you just made things easier for yourself. are you going to be kicked and punched? of course you are. it's a fight and you have to do whatever it takes to survive. if you hurt one out of the group or two, then the others will realize it. they might go after you harder or they might reconsider. but what options do you really have when you are jumper? if you are able to hurt one or two, then you might get the chance to run.

if you get into a fight with one person then there is no letting the guy tap out. you have to remember that the guy wanted to hurt you. why would you let him up unharmed? once again, break something then get away.

when you get jumped it might be by a complete stranger or by someone you see on a regular basis. if you are attacked by someone you see on a regular basis and you hurt this person, then they're probably not going to mess with you anymore. if you are jumped the attacker needs to know that the trouble that he is getting himself into is not worth attacking you.

[dbmasters]

if you are attacked by someone you see on a regular basis and you hurt this person, then they're probably not going to mess with you anymore.

If you are a family man, with a house, kids, etc, I would strongly suggest you do not bet that is the case...if you see them often they likely know your name, therefore your place of residence, therefore...well, things have the potential of going nowhere but downhill from there...there is a bigger picture to consider.

I am not sure what type of people you grew up around kempojosh, but my experience tells me if it's someone you know, think carefully before inflicting serious harm beyond an ego or a few bruises.

[kempojosh]

If you are a family man, with a house, kids, etc, I would strongly suggest you do not bet that is the case...if you see them often they likely know your name, therefore your place of residence, therefore...well, things have the potential of going nowhere but downhill from there...there is a bigger picture to consider.

I am not sure what type of people you grew up around [b]kempojosh[/i], but my experience tells me if it's someone you know, think carefully before inflicting serious harm beyond an ego or a few bruises.


you're right, you do have to consider everything. some people do need to be put in there place. others might want to take it to the extreme.

it all depends on what you're willing/not willing to do to protect yourself and anyone else that you might need to protect.

[dbmasters]

some people do need to be put in there place
I'll agree with that, some people just need a good ass-kickin...just make sure it won't come back to haunt you or yours...sometimes it just ain't worth the trouble...