went to a kung fu McDojo [Archive]

KenpoDavid

12-Sep-2003, 03:07 PM

I live in Nebraska, which is just about the center of the USA. So what I am about to describe happened there and doesn't reflect on any other schools of this same style as far as I know. So if somebody here studies Teoul Moon Kung Fu then don't take this as a criticism of your school. Unless you are in Nebraska :/ then you better listen up! :woo:

it all started when I discovered a very large dojo in the mall next to my companies call center. It's really big - like 10,000 sq ft or more. 20 wavemasters and 5 BOBs, uncountable block pads, shields, weapons... very impressive!

So I stopped in for a chat. Teoul Moon Kung Fu. But the sign over the door says "Karate". I thought that was funny but not necessarily a bad sign (no pun intended).

The instructor told me a little history of the style, and later I verfied what he said on the internet. Unfortunately I also learned _more_ than he told me, I found this on the web site of the world T.M.K.F oranization: (www.teoulmoon.com)

! Warning !
American Academies of Martial Arts
a.k.a
Martial Arts America
a.k.a
Bellevue Academy of Martial Arts

Omaha, NE. & Bellevue, NE.

is not an authorized Teoul Moon KungFu school

To Whom It May Concern:

Mark Goblowsky is not a representative of Teoul Moon Kung-Fu. He is not qualified nor authorized to instruct any of the techniques or traditions associated with Teoul Moon Kung-Fu. Further, he does not have the right use any name, image, or concept associated with Teoul Moon Kung-Fu.

Mr. Goblowsky was awarded an honorary certificate from the World Teoul Moon Kung-Fu Association that has since been revoked because of teaching, business, and ethical practices that do not conform to the image and teachings of Teoul Moon Kung-Fu....

Yim, Hon Suk

Grandmaster,
World Teoul Moon Kung-Fu Association

They offered 2 free 30 minute introductory lessons, and a free uniform.. for September they waive the usual $20 for that so it's all free :) despite what I learned on the internet I decided to take the 2 lessons.

I was totally up front with them : I study Kempo, I intend to continue with kempo, I want to learn some chinese kung-fu to supplement my kempo.

I observed one of their black belts doing some forms. Remember the "Star Wars Kid" clips? OK picture that and you are not far off. This 2nd Dan is about 16 yrs old, a little overweight, pale and pasty. His movement was sloppy, unenergetic, imprecise, and showed a lack of rhythym or timing. Now I know nothing about how T.M.K.F is supposed to look but I've seen plenty of video of chinese kung fu forms and it looked more like Star Wars Kid Kung Fu to me. This was a bad sign.

They did not want to discuss terms or costs until after I had attended the 2 introductory lessons. I think that's a bad sign too. I did get her to admit they only do 12 month contracts.

Soooo.. the day comes and I show up right on time. I get my free uniform (actually very nice japanese-style gi, unfortunately it has their school logo covering the entire back) and proceed onto the mat for my lesson.

He had me show him some punches and kicks, so he could evaluate my current state, then he showed me their frist beginners self-defense technique - to counter a bear-hug from behind.

It goes like this : stomp the right foot. Throw a right elbow up and over my shoulder to impact attackers temple. Throw left elbow same way, then right, then left, then move off to a guard or escape. He had me go through it standing alone in the center of the mat, then with my back to a heavy bag so I could feel the impact. At no point did he actually bear hug me.

Anyone see anything wrong with this technique?

While demonstrating the correct elbow angle, moving at about 1/4 speed using the heavy bag, he at one point stepped off and shook his head and said "whoa, got a little head-rush there" From doing your most basic technique at 1/4 speed you lost balance and got dizzy? he claimed 14 years experience and was the head instructor!!

He showed me another which involved some footwork, when showing me I got very confused at first until I realied he was mirroring my footwork left to right, not showing me the actual footwork. I don't know if this is common but I did NOT like it!

Next, I watched their adult intermediate class warming up. As they jogged around the mat area, it was obvious they were way out of shape. Now my school isn't focused on conditioning either, rally, but I think we expect a little more than that from middle-rank students. After 2 casual laps (about 50 yards total) almost all of them were red in the face and heaving for breath. Not sprinting or even running, just a casual warm-up jog. From their ranks I could tell they had been in class from 8 months to a year.

The last thing I want to mention is their belt ranking system. They have 19 belts before Black, making black belt the 20th belt you earn. I had previously asked about sparring, and was told that it was done every class once you reached Gold belt (3 promotions). how long does that typcially take, I aksed... 6 months I was told. They have tests every 2 months and that was when I would be able to spar. What if my previous training allows me to advance quicker than that? not possible. She said "you get tested and promoted every 2 months. Don't worry the tests are easy and everyone passes".

so in summary:
->students were out of shape, even at advanced belts
->techniques displayed by students at very senior levels (2nd dan black) were very poorly executed
->testing is not rigorous, promotions automatic, based on time served not skill acquired
->the number of belt rankings were doubled, allowing the collection of more test fees
->they offer studfy by mail options, and in fact are certifying their first remote black belt later this fall
->I saw a 12 yr old 2nd dan teaching beginning 8 yr olds
->the school headmaster had his certification revoked by the world sanctioning body for unethical practices, yet continues to claim allegiance to the style and to it's founders and teachers

I met the "headmaster", Mr. Goblowsky. I did NOT bring up the letter from Yim Hon Suk!

if anyone else has experience with Teoul Moon I'd be interested in hearing about it.

if anyone has experience at this particular school I'd be very interested in that.

finally, what is the ethical way for me to bring some students out of that school and over to the school where I attend? Is there one? Like, put a copy of the letter from the Grandmaster on their cars hahaha

I hope you enjoyed this, I know I had fun doing it. :D

Andy Murray

12-Sep-2003, 03:20 PM

NOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

Not Kung Fu.

From the website;

Teoul (pronounced "Toll") Moon Kung-Fu is a Chinese Martial Art that was developed in Korea.

Korean Martial Art! :(

David

12-Sep-2003, 04:03 PM

Oh dear! :D

The "Karate" sign indicates that Gobowski has taken his exile somewhat seriously though you can see what he was thinking ($$$) by calling it Karate.

With the anti-bearhug thing, you could only hit him between the ribs and the underarm unless it's a defence against a bearhug from a guy with no arms in which case he'd be very sorry indeed.

I've heard of some teachers doing the mirrored movements thing. It can be a good sign showing that the teacher is confident in performing stuff on either side.

There are Chinese styles and stylists doing well in Korea, I'm sure.

Ref the out of breath and dizziness, perhaps they have a carbon monoxide issue... You'd either be doing them a a life-saving favour mentioning that or at least be making one hell of a good joke at their expense. :D

Would I go there? I think not... ...well not until they fix that gas leak.

Rgds,
David

KenpoDavid

12-Sep-2003, 05:33 PM

With the anti-bearhug thing, you could only hit him between the ribs and the underarm unless it's a defence against a bearhug from a guy with no arms in which case he'd be very sorry indeed.

I've heard of some teachers doing the mirrored movements thing. It can be a good sign showing that the teacher is confident in performing stuff on either side.

That's what I was thinking... how do I get my elbows over my shoulder while he is bear hugging me???

But yeah the mirror thing is interesting, I didn't really take that as a bad sign, I just didn't care for it...

As far as him taking his exile seriously... everyone there was sure proud of their style and it's history and had no problems telling me all about Teoul Moon and their Mr G's close relationship with the Korean founders...

David

12-Sep-2003, 08:24 PM

Originally posted by KenpoDavid
As far as him taking his exile seriously... everyone there was sure proud of their style and it's history and had no problems telling me all about Teoul Moon and their Mr G's close relationship with the Korean founders...
There's no shortage of bull n bitchin in the wolrd of TMA :( I sometimes feel sorry for the teachers who fall out of favour with their heirarchy - the reasons can be petulant, financial, and not necessarily a reflection on the ability of the person concerned.

However, if they continue to claim to be in the fold then they are being a bit weak and, well, deceitful. Sometimes, there's great pleasure in seeing someone outed. I'm too far away to get worked up about Mr G but you go right ahead if he warrants it :D

And I was serious about the cabon monoxide.

Oh I forgot to ask, what was the foot stomp all about in the bearhug thing. Can you describe the feet positions and their movements. Surely there was some merit in the technique..?

Rgds,
David

imawimp

13-Sep-2003, 12:14 AM

A martial arts school in a mall has got to be a huge warning sign. That guy probably has to run 200 or 300 students a month just to make it.

Kof_Andy

13-Sep-2003, 04:10 AM

Is generally lame to have belt system in Kung Fu. Asian ways of teaching are taugh according to your ability not rank. Back then when karate, taekwondo started there were no rank system. Other than white and black, I have no clue who started all this rank crap. I teach In a taekwondo school with rank system of corse, but I teach my student anything wether they are white or black belt as long as they are mentally and physcally ready for it. But yeah look at the schools so call advance student can tell you a lot about the school itself. Im sure it was a mc dojo if all the stuff u said are true.:(

David

13-Sep-2003, 11:15 AM

With all the other issues, I forgot to mention the ranking system :D

Where I train, we have no sashes except for a short period a few years ago. Now there's a plan to introduce a grading system expressed purely through a log book with no outward indicators except for the students' capabilities and manner.

20 belts with no chance of skipping exams to get to your level? No thanks. Then again, because noone ever fails, you're guaranteed a black-belt in 3yrs 4mths :D I've been training nearly 6yrs and I don't think I'm half way through the curriculum*... Where'd you say this school was?

Rgds,
David

* moi, lazy? nah, just stoopid.

sholo86

28-Sep-2003, 03:29 AM

I was just browsing the net when I came across this forum. After reading KenpoDavid's unfortunate experience with Mr Goblowksy's school, I had to register and put in my two cents. I'm new at this so bear with me.
I used to live in Bellevue, NE and have seen the school KenpoDavid is talking about at Southroads Mall (if the name hasn't changed by now). I was there when Grandmaster Yim discontinued his association with Mr Goblowsky and his school. I am very disappointed and angered that after all these years, Mr Goblowsky is still using the Teoul Moon name as a leverage to lure students to his school. I'm just glad that KenpoDavid was able to see through all the "smokes" and saw what it was really all about (money for Mr G).

I practice Teoul Moon Kung Fu. Because I am in the military, I had the opportunity to get stationed at Osan AB, South Korea and studied under Grandmaster Yim himself. I trained very hard to get my blackbelt (1st degree) under the watchful eye of Grandmaster Yim. Now, I'm in the process of getting my 2nd. If you want to know more about my style, please check out the website teoulmoon.com. It is not the grandest of the martial arts websites out there but it serves its purpose. The Webmaster, Mark Nischalke, was my instructor when he opened the Five Animal Kung Fu Academy at the Capehart Plaza by the base hospital at Belelvue (I'm sure KenpoDavid knows where this is at). Unfortunately, Mark had to move to PA and so did the school. There are only a handful Teoul Moon Kung Fu schools in the U.S. that are recognized by Grandmaster Yim and The World Teoul Moon Kung Fu Association. They are listed in website.

I salute KenpoDavid for bringing this out in the open. I can only hope that future students see what KDavid had seen in the two days he was there.

What's my point after all this blabbering? I guess I'm just here to say Teoulmoon Kung Fu is one of the greatest kung fu systems out there. It is very unfortunate that Mr Goblowksy and his school is dragging Teoul Moon Kung Fu's name in the mud. And again to thank KDavid for doing his research about Mr G's school and really putting him out there in the open for people to read about.

sholo86

28-Sep-2003, 06:11 AM

quote:
->the school headmaster had his certification revoked by the world sanctioning body for unethical practices, yet continues to claim allegiance to the style and to it's founders and teachers
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now that I thought more about this, I will try and talk to our Senior Head Instructor at the Teoul Moon Kung Fu Headquarters, PA, regarding Mr Goblowsky's activities. I'm sure there are some copy-right violations and issues here somewhere.

KenpoDavid, if you can tell students about the teoulmoon website, I'm sure they'll find the link to Grandmaster Yim's letter regarding their headmaster/school. Or better yet, just show them the letter. And see what happens.

I am still angry that this guy, Mr Goblowsky, is teaching his so called "martial arts" under the name of Teoul Moon Kung Fu of which he was never a certified instructor for. His teachings will surely leave a very negative impression to fellow martial artist, future students, and people in general who are curious of what Teoul Moon Kung Fu is all about.

Man...gotta go and do some Chi Gung exercises...

Sub zero

28-Sep-2003, 10:44 AM

To Kof andy.
The ranking systems in MA started with judo.Kano introduced them.(aparently in the same order as japanese swimming grades but i'm not sure about that)
It has been found (or so i've read) that there were ranking systems in some CMA schools in mainland china long b4 this.NOt sure how true the CMA thing is but i remeber reading it in some artical in Martial arts illustrated.

teoul

28-Sep-2003, 05:58 PM

Thanks to sholo86 for being this forum to my attention.

KenpoDavid, I’m sorry for your experience and glad that you were able to see through the farce.

I am Mark Nischalke, US representative to the Teoul Moon KungFu and Tai Chi Association. As has been pointed out, Mr. Goblowsky is not an authorized representative of our system. I have had direct personal contact with Grandmaster Yim for over 15 years. I have personally been witness to some of the action that have lead to Mr. Goblowsky’s ex-communication is you will. I’m not going to delve into details in this forum; his continued claims give enough evidence to his flawed character. I will say though the issues had nothing to do with money and a lot to do with character. Mr. Goblowsky has not had contact with his teacher in at least 8 years and for him to claim otherwise is further evidence of his lack of character. For him to imply so to his students is reprehensible.

I have sat in on Mr. Goblowsky’s training sessions with top instructors in his school and was sickened. More effort was put forth in marketing than actually improving the students experience and skills. When I tried to point out that a technique was being taught incorrectly I was reproached; “It would be too difficult to teach the students correctly, they would get frustrated and not come back. If we modify it they will continue to signup for more lessons.”

The sad and unfortunate circumstances are that there really is nothing that can be done except promote the truth and dispel the lies. I am unaware of any laws that prohibit one from opening a school and claiming to teach anything they want. There may be copyright or trademark issues, yet I have no physical evidence of this. Time and money are also issues.

Mr. Goblowsky also claimed affiliation with Martial Arts America. After a long conversation with representatives of this organization I found they had little interest in the quality of schools under their flag as long as the checks kept coming.

By sharing his experience KenpoDavid has done a great service us all. By identifying these unscrupulous schools and teachers we can weed them out and make our systems stronger. I feel sad for those who don’t have the experience and get duped into these types of schools; they eventually end up with poor opinions of martial arts in general, which hurts us all. Truth is a weapon that can not be defended against.

If any one is interested in learning more about Teoul Moon please visit or website at www.teoulmoon.com. If you are in the Omaha Nebraska area please use caution when evaluating this school.

YODA

28-Sep-2003, 06:07 PM

I don't like people registering purely to "grind an axe" as a rule.

However, you seem to have handled that with integrity & decorum - welcome to MAP - I hope you like our forum and stay to contibute & benefit from our community. :D

teoul

28-Sep-2003, 06:11 PM

A word to Andy Murray.

Yes Teoul Moon was developed in Korea, yet that does not make it a Korean art. Our first master studied under several Chinese masters and currently lives and studies in China. Linage has more to do with the classification of the system than the physical location or nationality of it's founders and practicioners.

KenpoDavid

29-Sep-2003, 02:36 PM

I guess I should add a few things... I spoke only very briefly with Mr Goblowsky, just an introduction and he was off. I spent most of my time with David Robbins, he had 2 stripes on his belt, which was black. He was the one who told me about G's study with the masters in Korea, and about teoul moon kung fu. he also told me they didn't have any written information about their style, and now I know why (becasue they would get sued if they did!)

The foot stomp... Robbins didn't get into it real deeply, and I never was shown the move with anyone actually grabbing me. So I can't really say anymore about what they were teaching.

It's too bad the real teachers left Bellevue. I was born in that base hospital and would ride my bike as a kid to that strip mall.

I'm thinking about leafletting or posting some info in the mall. Even though I have no reason to doubt the word of Mr. Nischalke and every reason to believe Goblowsky is what he appears, I'm not sure that would be a good thing to do. However I have contacted the local newspaper and told them everything I posted here. I suggested to them that Goblowsky may have his own story that clears his name and that the families who give up their hard earned money deserve to know the truth. They claim over 200 families as ther customers...

Holgate

29-Sep-2003, 02:44 PM

if there's a story in it let the newspaper investigate, they will be covered with libel insurance if it ever got to that stage. You've done your part the best bet is to stand back and let them take over. A law suit for libel will cost you far more than it would do a newspaper

sholo86

30-Sep-2003, 03:01 AM

I (we) did not expect KDavid to go through all these trouble to put the truth out there, but we appreciate his efforts. You have done us a big favor. Thank you.
Also, I agree with Holgate, now it's time to stand back and watch. Whether the newspaper investigates Mr G's school or not, I would stop at this point. As far as I'm concerned you have done our association (WTMKFA) great service already. Again, thank you.

KenpoDavid

30-Sep-2003, 02:10 PM

no thanks necessary, I'm just doing what I can in the interest of martial arts in general in my community. Believe me I would rather this had been a legitimate school where I could be learning something...

I don't think I would be at risk of any legal trouble if I, hypothetically, distributed copies of the letter from the T.M website. Of course that won't stop anyone from _threatening_ legal trouble and then I have to pay a lawyer to deter it... which I don't have the money for...

my bigger concern is that my employer is also a tenant in the same mall and I have to go down there occaisonally - I wouldn't want to get waylaid by a bunch of kung-fu students who think I insulted their teacher. Might get my suit rumpled, and I wouldn't want to get all sweaty LOL!!!

If any of you (legitimate) Teoul Moon guys ever come back through Omaha, feel free to look me up!

David
www.kempokarate.com

Andy Murray

30-Sep-2003, 03:43 PM

Originally posted by teoul
A word to Andy Murray.

Yes Teoul Moon was developed in Korea, yet that does not make it a Korean art. Our first master studied under several Chinese masters and currently lives and studies in China. Linage has more to do with the classification of the system than the physical location or nationality of it's founders and practicioners.

Hi Teoul, just makes me itch when I see Korean and Chinese words blended or used to describe each other.

I agree with you to a point. It's like me developing a style and calling it Kung Fu.

I'm in Scotland, so what sounds better?

Claymore Fist?

Whisky Do?

Haggis Fu?

Not a big issue, it just makes alarm bells ring, which you can especially understand having read David's post.

sholo86

01-Oct-2003, 02:40 AM

If you created your own martial arts style, I guess, as the founder, you deserve the right to name it. And in doing so, I'm sure you will take into account how this new style came to birth, then name it appropriately.

If you want to call your new MA style "Haggis Fu" or "Whisky Do", that's within your right as the founder of that sytle. I'm sure your students will look at the style and the way you teach it, more than the nationality of their teacher/master.

Who am I to tell the founder of a new MA sytem, that he/she named it wrong.

In the McDojo case, Mr G was not teaching a new style. He was supposedly "teaching" Teoul Moon Kung Fu, of which we all know by now, under false pretense. His Dojo sign says "Karate". For somebody who doesn't know any better about MA, they will definitely miss hearing the alarm bells and get lured in.

KDavid keep me posted on new developments regarding Mr G's McDojo, if you don't mind. Thanks again.

Andy Murray

01-Oct-2003, 03:19 AM

Originally posted by sholo86
If you created your own martial arts style, I guess, as the founder, you deserve the right to name it. And in doing so, I'm sure you will take into account how this new style came to birth, then name it appropriately.

If you want to call your new MA style "Haggis Fu" or "Whisky Do", that's within your right as the founder of that sytle. I'm sure your students will look at the style and the way you teach it, more than the nationality of their teacher/master.

Who am I to tell the founder of a new MA sytem, that he/she named it wrong.

In the McDojo case, Mr G was not teaching a new style. He was supposedly "teaching" Teoul Moon Kung Fu, of which we all know by now, under false pretense. His Dojo sign says "Karate". For somebody who doesn't know any better about MA, they will definitely miss hearing the alarm bells and get lured in.

KDavid keep me posted on new developments regarding Mr G's McDojo, if you don't mind. Thanks again.

Like many, you've responded to the specifics within a post and avoided the key issues.

pesilat

01-Oct-2003, 09:37 AM

But wouldn't that be a "McKwoon"?

Sorry, couldn't resist ;)

Mike

YODA

01-Oct-2003, 05:07 PM

Probably McDoKwoon :p

sholo86

02-Oct-2003, 11:14 AM

I thought when somebody starts a Thread, the key issue for discussion is pretty much spelled out in the title of the Thread. So when browsing, people can pick the Thread they might have an opinion on and reply. If this assumption is wrong then somebody has to let me know coz I'm new at this hidden key issues on posts.

As far as I know, Teoul and myself, have answered KDavid's key questions, concerns, and issues regarding McDojo. We were gratefull that he went a step further to get the truth about McDojo out in the open.

I think Teoul just wanted to tell MAP members that Teoul Moon Kung Fu is a chinese MA and not Korean (like some of us might have tought)

Correct me if I'm wrong and I apologize in advance but AndyMurray's reply to Teoul's message has a hint of sarcasm to it. So again, I put in my two cents.

I think McDoKwoon could be one of the greatest style out there:)

phroe

21-Oct-2003, 05:00 AM

My name is Jon, i happen to be the "slightly over weight, pale pasty, sloppy" and who knows what ever else you called me. First off, what does my complexion have to do with anything? i admit, my weight is not perfect, (its going down) I am 18, not 16. We have not called ourselves Teoul Moon in years. We started as Teoul Moon, but we no longer affiliate ourselves with martial arts america to my knowledge. we used to have a flag. We do not charge for testing. Most people do past the tests yes, however, we do make sure they can demonstrate their material properly before we pass them.

Mr Robbins, the grizzly old man with a thick beard, introduces the style as teoul moon only because he has nothing else to call it. The karate sign came from a friend willing to get rid of it for cheap. my techniques were sloppy yes. i have bad knees. they've taken a lot of punishment, and from time to time i forget how much they hurt (most of the time i shrug it off) and keep going when i shouldnt, so, in retaliation, they decide to no longer function apropriately, pute frankly, hurt like bleep in a bleep bleep. Mr robbins said "made me dizzy there for a moment yes, he did, he often does, he was joking, i'll fill him in that he's not always getting the point across.

We have one senior instructor, his name is Mr T. for short. in no way related to the A-team (because i know some of you out there would point that out) We have one bob, i have no idea where you got 5, we've always had just the one bob, that was a lie. we have maybe 13 powerlines. we have belts, then advanced belts. a new color every two months. we make everyone go through the same system because we arent teaching what you learned, were teaching something different.

we have never had an instructor at 12 years old. George is 15 and is only an assitant, and isnt on the floor much. i am an assistant at 18. The foot stomp was a stomp on the top of the agressors foot, to loosen their grip and distract them. the elbows were driected above the attacker's arms and shoulders, which works perfectly well when done correctly.

sholo86

21-Oct-2003, 10:56 PM

(Phroe) I assume you're one of the students at Mr G's school at the mall. Did you know the history of the school before you took the class?

Were you led to believe you were learning Teoul Moon kung fu or a different kung fu style (even though the sign says Karate)?

Does it bother you at all that your headmaster's (Mr Goblowsky) certification got revoked by the Grandmaster himself? Do you think he's qualified to teach other MA styles?
--check out the revokation letter at the Teoul Moon website, www.teoulmoon.com, under "schools".

You're still young. If you are really interested in MA, I suggest you give your hard-earned dollar to a legitimate MA school in the Omaha/Bellevue area. Put this down as a lesson learned. Check out the references before you sign up.

phroe

22-Oct-2003, 04:13 AM

i joined over 11 years ago, there wasnt much history of the school at the time. the sing is new, it didnt say karate at the time. he has shown that he is perfectly well qualified to teach, there is a fine story behind the falling out he had with grandmaster Yim. ive seen the revocation letter. and dont dare talk down to me, that was an incredibly errogant thing to say, errogant and cocky. youve never seen the school, and dave here has lied numerous times in his little post. i didnt bother pointing them all out. as to the revocation and the falling out with Grandmaster Yim i wont get into it, you havent heard the whole story, and i wont bother telling you, because frankly all im going to get is people hounding back at me and debating me on it.

Andy Murray

22-Oct-2003, 09:00 AM

You guys could use the forums PM function to discuss this instead of rallying support?

sholo86

22-Oct-2003, 12:35 PM

AndyM....thanks we'll discuss this more in PM

Andy Murray

22-Oct-2003, 12:38 PM

Thanks Sholo. ;)

SoKKlab

22-Oct-2003, 01:08 PM

Goblowsky? Is that a fighting technique or just a way of attracting more students?

Apparently GM Yim can withstand the push of six men when standing upon one leg.

KenpoDavid

22-Oct-2003, 03:02 PM

I didn't lie about anything.

Andy Murray

22-Oct-2003, 03:05 PM

Take a hint!

sholo86

23-Oct-2003, 02:53 AM

Originally posted by SoKKlab
Goblowsky? Is that a fighting technique or just a way of attracting more students?

Apparently GM Yim can withstand the push of six men when standing upon one leg.

Mr G...you can forget about him :o

And yes, GM Yim can withstand the push of six men (or women) when standing on one leg. Not saying this because I'm a student of his, I'm saying it because I witnessed it myself.

He also demonstrated the power of Chi when he withstood or avoided his throat from being pierced and cut by a spear-head. He placed the the spear-head against his throat while the other person pushed hard against it. You can see the "staff" part of the spear bend. It was really incredible to watch.

These and a few other skills of GM Yim, he gives credit to his years of deligent practice of Chi Gong.

SoKKlab

23-Oct-2003, 02:29 PM

Sounds like a load of Goblowsky to me.

sholo86

23-Oct-2003, 04:34 PM

Originally posted by SoKKlab
Sounds like a load of Goblowsky to me.

It does sound like it don't it? "A load of goblowksy"...hahaha that's new. It's a catchy phrase too ain't it? I might just use this phrase on someone, someday.. :D lol

But all jokes aside, I guess you have to see it to believe it. I myself thought all this "Chi" stuff are a bunch of hoo-haas until I saw it first-hand.

Hopefully you'll be lucky enough to witness such skills just to give you different perspectives about MA in general.

SoKKlab

24-Oct-2003, 12:09 PM

Originally posted by sholo86
Hopefully you'll be lucky enough to witness such skills just to give you different perspectives about MA in general.

Thanks. I've witnessed such skills many times in the past.
I'm still waiting to see something that's more than a simple Magicians trick or Chi party piece.

Maybe one day?

phroe

24-Oct-2003, 05:40 PM

then go find something master yim has done. theres all kinds of chi stuff out there that couldnt possibly be a magic trick.

KenpoDavid

24-Oct-2003, 06:18 PM

Hey phroe, are you going to answer my email? We were asked not to discuss the topic of this thread anymore in this thread, so I sent you an email asking you to explain why you called me a liar. Please reply. or you can retract it and admit that I am not...

If you didn't receive it I can send it again...

David

KenpoDavid

24-Oct-2003, 06:18 PM

anything that looks like magic, could be a magic trick.

phroe

24-Oct-2003, 07:05 PM

no i never got your e-mail. and you did lie, numerous times. we have no out of shape adults, we have only one bob.... i know there was more, but im not going to re-read your post to find them.

KenpoDavid

24-Oct-2003, 07:24 PM

email coming... if you want to discuss point by point in an open forum, that's OK with me. for example, _you_ are an out of shape adult LOL just respond to my email. t was sent through MAP so whatever email addr you used to register will have it.

If you don't want to discuss point for point in an open forum, stop doing so... the mods asked us to take this discussion private and that's what I am trying to do.

SoKKlab

24-Oct-2003, 07:24 PM

As I said Goblowsky...

Just stick to yr training and
leave the Flying Saucers to the mystics

Andy Murray

24-Oct-2003, 08:00 PM

Pretty please!

Matthew

30-Nov-2003, 01:35 AM

I'm am sad to hear that there are poor representatives of teoulmoon out there. i have studied teoulmoon Kung fu under a pupil of master lew. the integrity and level of commitment to attain "rank" was very difficult as well as painful.
for the gentlman that posted his experience, this is not what teoulmoon kung fu is. our school is not a formal school but rather informal. there we are able to learn skills that are not under the "watchful eye" of workers compensation defrauders.
I'm glad that there has been much defense to teoulmoon and the level of martial arts that it instructs. sorry there are my two cents.

Matthew

30-Nov-2003, 01:37 AM

sorry in addition. the exhibitions of gm yim i have not witnessed personally but do believe that he has the ability. i have been taught by a 2nd degre black belt and have no doubt that gm's ability's are exponentially greater than his.

sholo86

30-Nov-2003, 04:44 AM

Matthew
It is always nice to know a fellow Teoul Moon practicioner around these parts. You're the third person in MAP that I know of who practices Teoul Moon kung Fu. Welcome to MAP.

Please check private mail. I have some questions to ask if you don't mind answering them. ThnX :)

KungFuGrrrl

09-Mar-2004, 06:22 PM

I feel bad for the students that are paying to learn from this guy. They might end up with injuries from incorrect movements if not being trained properly!

That is why I wish people would thouroughly check out schools as you did before jumping in with both feet!

Good job
KFG

phroe

10-Mar-2004, 03:09 AM

were not that bad, jeebus give us a break, your hearing one biased opinion from one person over the internet. we are extreemly careful with how we teach techniques. if half of you would see the school for yourself i am positive you would feel differently.

KenpoDavid

10-Mar-2004, 04:12 PM

if half of you would see the school for yourself i am positive you would feel differently.

I dont feel I made a biased report. But of course eveyone is biased, even you, phroe. Your bias probably comes from all the money you have spent there over the years and the natural reluctance to admit it might have been not the best place to do so.

I never said anyone got injured from practicing incorrectly. YOU reported that you had bad knees as a 16yr old 2nd dan blackbelt. Anyone who draws conclusions about the effect of Goblowsky's training program on your knees is doing so on their own, without input from me.

I could go take some pics if you like. I'm at southroads frequently.

phroe

10-Mar-2004, 06:58 PM

first of all, my bad knees come from a family history of weak joints, particularly knees.

second of all, you havent got the right in hell to say i went to the wrong place after you spent at most half an hour with one instructor, that is in no way enough time to make in informed opinion that my school isnt the right place.

af_sting

07-Jun-2004, 03:40 AM

KenpoDavid

07-Jun-2004, 06:34 PM

Well, it was dead until you posted in it again!

but anyway...
I never really trained there - I went in for an orientation and free lesson, and from those exeperiences I wrote that first post in this thread. I was hoping to start training to complement my Kempo lessons but changed my mind.

Hey phroe, how many mail-order black-belts you guys got now :woo: just teasing you, don't get all pissy...

or, I guess you could get really pissy and PM for a time to meet and "compare styles in realistic pressure-test environment" :eek: :woo: LOL actually I suspect phroe hasn't been to MAP in a while...

David

teoul

05-Aug-2004, 12:54 PM

I just got word that this school has yet again changed it's name. It is no longer American Academies of Martial Arts but is now Mark Goblowsky's Martial Arts.

WHy does a solid, respectable school need to change its name so many times?

teoul

05-Aug-2004, 01:44 PM

We have not called ourselves Teoul Moon in years. We started as Teoul Moon, but we no longer affiliate ourselves with martial arts america to my knowledge. we used to have a flag. We do not charge for testing. Most people do past the tests yes, however, we do make sure they can demonstrate their material properly before we pass them.

Mr Robbins, the grizzly old man with a thick beard, introduces the style as teoul moon only because he has nothing else to call it. The karate sign came from a friend willing to get rid of it for cheap.

We have one senior instructor, his name is Mr T. for short. in no way related to the A-team (because i know some of you out there would point that out) We have one bob, i have no idea where you got 5, we've always had just the one bob, that was a lie. we have maybe 13 powerlines. we have belts, then advanced belts. a new color every two months. we make everyone go through the same system because we arent teaching what you learned, were teaching something different.

we have never had an instructor at 12 years old. George is 15 and is only an assitant, and isnt on the floor much. i am an assistant at 18. The foot stomp was a stomp on the top of the agressors foot, to loosen their grip and distract them. the elbows were driected above the attacker's arms and shoulders, which works perfectly well when done correctly.

Jon:

Let me adderess a few of your issues.

"We started as Teoul Moon, but we no longer affiliate ourselves with martial arts america to my knowledge."

The World Teoul Moon KungFu association is not, and has never been, connected with Martial Arts America and visa versa. So saying you are no longer affilated with it does not relinquish the claims by your school to be associated with Teoul Moon.

"Mr Robbins, the grizzly old man with a thick beard, introduces the style as teoul moon only because he has nothing else to call it"

He has nothing else to call it!!! That is a poor excuse. As an instructor he should be able to accurately describe his system. It is shameful that his instructor, Mr G., either has not, can not, or is unwilling to correct this misconception.

"we make everyone go through the same system because we arent teaching what you learned, were teaching something different"

What is it that you are teaching then?

What right do I have to comment right? I have been involved in TM for 20 years and have had direct personal contact with Mr. G. I can say that what KenpoDavid, Sholo86 and af_sting are saying is for the most part very accurate.

I have personally witnessed the unethical practices Mr. G has used. I have seen the exorbitant fees changed for testing. I have seen students passed to the next level just so they will continue to pay. Because I trained, and continue to train, directly under Grandmaster Yim I saw techniques that were being taught incorrectly and was several chastised for pointing it out. Mr G. was not removed from TM because of a personality dispute, it was because he would not adhere to the techinques, practice and ethics of the Teoul Moon System.

I know this is just my word and will be taken with a grain of salt but ask questions. How many times has the school changed names? Are there other schools in the area that do this? Why would it be necessary. Ask Mr G. why he is no longer associated with Teoul Moon? If he is not, then why does he continue to use its techniques and forms, etc. Talk to instructors and students from other schools. What is there opinion?

Please contact me via the teoul moon (http://www.teoulmoon.com) website if you would like further information or to discussion this more.

OblivionsAvatar

05-Aug-2004, 01:48 PM

Anyone who draws conclusions about the effect of Goblowsky's training program on your knees is doing so on their own.
I could go take some pics if you like. I'm at southroads frequently.

heheheheh....no one finds this funny? no?.....ok :(

sholo86

15-Nov-2004, 09:46 AM

I was lost, but now am found. What's been going on with this thread? It keeps going and going and going....
af sting, I see you made it to Korea. Goodluck on your training with GM Yim.

af_sting

15-Nov-2004, 11:51 AM

I was lost, but now am found. What's been going on with this thread? It keeps going and going and going....
af sting, I see you made it to Korea. Goodluck on your training with GM Yim.

Hey Bro, How the heck do you like Hawaii? Rumor has it that is really nice. :rolleyes:

Good to hear from you...still training?

-Sting

moondog

15-Nov-2004, 12:38 PM

teoul

15-Nov-2004, 11:27 PM

Grandmaster Yim teaches both traditional kung fu and modern wushu, and is very skilled in both, as well as Tai Chi and Chi Kung.

af_sting

16-Nov-2004, 06:05 AM

i checked out the teoul moon webstite and i just a quick question: is GM yim teaching traditional martial arts or modern wushu? i read the bio and it seems that he's trained in modern wushu and that's what he teaches.

Hey Moondog,

He mainly teaches the traditional kung fu and chi gung now days and leaves the modern wushu to some of his younger students (such as Pak, Chun Dae who runs a school specifically for wushu). Regardless of your opinion of modern wushu, there’s a very simple reason on why he chose to start teaching it here in Korea. A young Korean can get scholastic scholarships if he does well in wushu or tae kwon do (similar to our football or basketball in the US) but there are no such programs for the traditional styles. So Korean parents are more inclined to take their child to a wushu school rather than one that teaches traditional kung fu (it’s all economics).

Now the wushu does fall under the World Teoul Moon Kung Fu and Tai Chi Association, as does the Tai Chi, Chi Gung, and a host of other training techniques and forms Master Yim has acquired through the years. At the same time, he’s ensured that the Teoul Moon System (the traditional external style) stays compartmentalized, and is pretty much the same as when Master Chon passed it to him. I specify this because we have some Masters who specialize in Drunken Style, Iron Body, Wushu, Tai Chi, etc, but they still fall under the association.

Hope that answers your question,

-Sting

Ikken Hisatsu

16-Nov-2004, 07:03 AM

ok just to put my two cents in- you are not going to hurt someone who has you in a bearhug by throwing a back elbow into their arm. no way, now how. unless you get bearhugged by a 12 year old girl. my instructor has been elbowing people for 15 years, and he agrees.

moondog

16-Nov-2004, 08:20 AM

cheers sting that helps. is my disdain for modern wushu so obvious? :confused: gotta learn how to keep it hidden.

Infrazael

16-Nov-2004, 11:52 PM

lol. My Sifu calls Wushu "nothing but excercise" which is not too untrue considering how it's done here.

af_sting

17-Nov-2004, 02:43 AM

cheers sting that helps. is my disdain for modern wushu so obvious? :confused: gotta learn how to keep it hidden.

I really don't mind Wushu much. I mean I don't train in it, but I do have respect for the practitioners. To me its much the same as gymnastics...I'm amazed by some of the things gymnasts can do. In the same way I am impressed by the guys that do Wushu. I don't believe it is an effective martial arts, especially when compared to many of the MMAs, but then again, it's not really a martial arts, but more a sport (like boxing or Olympic TKD). Of course are there some Wushu practitioners that are actually decent fighters (in much the same way a boxer could be), I think that's likely.

So I must ask, what is the basis for your disdain of Wushu? Are you looking at it as a form of self-defense, or as a sport?

Take care,
-Sting

moondog

17-Nov-2004, 09:14 AM

modern wushu us good in the way that it is a means to an education for kids that would otherwise be unable to go to school. and like you mentioned, a lot of physical talent and perseverance is needed to be able do modern wushu.

however, modern wushu is purely a visual performance. while the moves have been taken out of traditional forms, they are performed with speed and visual effect in mind. there is no martial intent. if you look at the video clips at www.russbo.com of some of the monks, there is a world of difference between the way they perform their forms and the way it is performed in modern wushu. the monks are not as fast as most competitors, but they have solidity. you can practically feel the martial intent of their techniques. modern wushu on the other hand has no martial intent whatsoever. given that the martial arts are for combat, i cannot consider modern wushu as a martial art.

about some competitors being decent fighters, i don't think it's possible. there is no combat training in modern wushu (i've seen the way the philippine national team train). they do the forms over and over and over again, and that's all. no two man drills, pad work, etc. and like i mentioned before, no intent, which is the most important thing i think.

not saying that modern wushu is a bad sport. just that that's all it is, a performance sport. not a combat science or even a combat sport.

af_sting

17-Nov-2004, 12:58 PM

about some competitors being decent fighters, i don't think it's possible. there is no combat training in modern wushu (i've seen the way the philippine national team train). they do the forms over and over and over again, and that's all. no two man drills, pad work, etc. and like i mentioned before, no intent, which is the most important thing i think.
I think you missed my point. I personally believe fighting ability comes from within and martial arts is simply a way of refining or polishing it. A person who studies an effective martial arts but has no fighting spirit will still be a poor fighter. On the flipside, I'm sure you've seen the "natural fighter"; those people who simply have a natural talent to fight (agility, speed, strength) or who simply have so much spirit, they defy the odds. One well-known example would be the Gracie vs Kimo in UFC 3. Kimo was undisciplined and untrained (or very little real training) and he still fought (arguably) one of the best technical ground-fighters (pound for pound) to near exhaustion. In the same way, I imagine there is some Wushu guy running around out there who has that natural fighting spirit...and oh, he can throw kicks lightning fast and move with a rehearsed speed that becomes near natural. He's not a good fighter because of Wushu...he's a good fighter in spite of it. :cool:

-Sting

Ikken Hisatsu

17-Nov-2004, 07:25 PM

no. a trained fighter> someone with heart and no ability.

woodrow

17-Nov-2004, 07:33 PM

moondog

18-Nov-2004, 02:27 AM

thanks for clearing that up sting. i think the best comparison would be street fighters knocking out martial artists hehe... happens quite often here in the philippines.

woodrow: all the speed in the world will do you no good if you don't know how to use it. many martial artists agree that it's not speed and power but timing. and you don't learn timing in modern wushu. i'm talking about timing in combat, not in a pre-set coordinated act. another thing is a lot of the martial moves have been changed by modern wushu to look better, taking away the martial capability of that move.

one example is the sidekick. the longfist routine two years ago had a sidekick where and elbow immediately followed. the sidekick is normally done with the foot chambered (not extended) and then suddenly extended with a hip movement to add power. modern wushu change it to almost full extended with no hip movement. the reason was because it was faster to perform this way and looked slightly cleaner, more impressive.

Ikken Hisatsu

18-Nov-2004, 03:08 AM

I disagree. I have seen guys who were naturally aggresive knock down people who are "trained". I guess we have to decide what we each mean by "trained".

I kind of disagree with people putting down wushu. My position is that the physical shape necessary to do wushu is levels above the physical shape most people are in. Even if they are not trained in fighting, if they could hit someone with a wushu technique, their strength should hurt the other person.

If you want to put them against a professional fighter, then they would lose probably. Those wushu people are really fast. If you can hit someone before they know it, it does not matter how strong or trained the other guy is. I have a video of some wushu people. Their speed is stunning.

when I say a trained fighter I mean someone who competes in MMA or other full contact events like muay thai. not your local 12 year old tkd black belt. my instructor embodies this very well- in our mt school, before you start sparring with everyone else you spar our coach so he can get an idea of your level of ability. he is 5'9 and probably 180 pounds soaking wet- some of the guys we get in are BIG guys, well over 200 pounds and 6 foot. most of them end the session lying on the floor gasping for air (except the real cocky ones who end up gasping in pain)

some of these guys show a lot of heart etc, but they simply cannot overcome his level of experience and ability. things like timing, reactions, and the techniques you use cannot be trained without fighting. and unless you get into streetfights on a very regular basis a trained fighter is going to have more experience in that department. and if wushu people are so fast and ultimate, where are they in the competitive world? thats right, nowhere. cos they cant fight.

Scarlet Mist

18-Nov-2004, 03:13 AM

Swift Kick

18-Nov-2004, 04:22 AM

when I say a trained fighter I mean someone who competes in MMA or other full contact events like muay thai. not your local 12 year old tkd black belt. my instructor embodies this very well- in our mt school, before you start sparring with everyone else you spar our coach so he can get an idea of your level of ability. he is 5'9 and probably 180 pounds soaking wet- some of the guys we get in are BIG guys, well over 200 pounds and 6 foot. most of them end the session lying on the floor gasping for air (except the real cocky ones who end up gasping in pain)

some of these guys show a lot of heart etc, but they simply cannot overcome his level of experience and ability. things like timing, reactions, and the techniques you use cannot be trained without fighting. and unless you get into streetfights on a very regular basis a trained fighter is going to have more experience in that department. and if wushu people are so fast and ultimate, where are they in the competitive world? thats right, nowhere. cos they cant fight.

I've seen a local Muay Thai practitioner get bull rushed and slammed into a gravel parking lot by an "untrained" guy outside of a bar one night after they got into it inside.

To be fair, this guy in particular is a local nuisance. His M.O. is starting crap wherever he can, and he's been arrested countless times for domestic disturbances and assault and what not. But he's a huge guy, used to be a linebacker in high school, and he's strong as a bull.

His "experienced" opponent got two things for his efforts- A bloody nose and stitches. The "inexpericed" guy ended up getting carted off in cuffs, but no worse for the wear.

My point? Training is all fine and dandy, but it never, NEVER, guarantees anything, especially a victory, in a real situation. To think otherwise is naive. A fight is one huge variable, and of course you up your odds of successfully dealing with conflict by having training, but there is no magic secret to invincibility, and there are people big enough and strong enough out there that will plow through you and pay no heed as you scream "But I've got training!"

Ikken Hisatsu

18-Nov-2004, 04:28 AM

Swift Kick

18-Nov-2004, 04:43 AM

what exactly is your point? every day people get their asses beat by people who know how to fight. every now and then someone beats them back. but you can bet your ass that the percentage of those who beat back is a lot smaller than those who get beaten.

And you have hard, factual, emperical evidence of this? Solid numbers that back up what you're saying?

Because I'm looking at James LaFond's 2004 Violence Project report in my hand right now, and what I see is-

53% of all attacks involved booze or drugs on the part of the attacker. That right there is going to render any training they may have moot, but that's a null point as they're likely not even trained to begin with.

Of these agressive acts, 57% of the agressors were successful, with 32% of those wins being by a knock out of the person they're attacking (and remember, we're talking about a self defense situation here, not a mutal combat scenario.)

13% ended with the defender (the person far more likely to have some type of training) winning, with 50% of those ending in K.O. For the math impaired that means 6.5% of the defenders won the fight in a dominating manner.

The reamining 30% were scuffles that had no winner, or were broken up.

So, if you can provide numbers that are different that this, by all means do. I'll gladly eat crow if I'm proven wrong. But until you can, it'd be best to stop spouting overly hyberbolic anecdotes about how trained fighters are magically mopping up on the streets.

Ikken Hisatsu

18-Nov-2004, 05:16 AM

bull. heres a few reasons why-

1. I would say that the % of the population that are actual fighters is what, 5%? 10% at a stretch? most fights involve two people who cant fight. and are usually instigated by someone who has a good idea they are going to win, i.e. they are bigger than the other guy, more physically fit, have been smoking P, whatever. people dont start a fight if they think they will lose.

2. you assume that people who know MA won't start a fight. why exactly is that? doing a martial art doesnt stop you from being an "not nice person"

3. these are all one on one fights? I doubt it. I never said knowing MA will save you from joe thug and his 3 buddies.

4. continuing in that theme, how many of these attacks involved sneaking up behind someone and hitting their head into the wall? not much MA training will save you there.

simple fact is, those nice figures you have mean absolutely squat because most people do not practice a MA. for all you know, that 6.5% could be the 6.5% of people that are actual fighters. now I have a few numbers- go look at sherdog and see how many street fighters make it in the cage. go down to your local cage match, they often have "street fighters" who think they are the bomb. I've seen a couple of fights with those kind of people and it always ends ugly (for them).

moondog

18-Nov-2004, 08:05 AM

eh just want to clear something up here... are you talking about a legal cage match or an illegal cage match. if it's legal it will have some rules, which means it can't be compared with a "bonafide" streetfight.

martial artists getting their asses beat is pretty common here in the philippines... i'm talking about full contact fighters with 20-0 records in the ring... the truth is sparring and street fighting are two very different things.

psychologically, unless a martial artist has experience in the street, he will be at a disadvantage to a streetfighter. why? because most people don't realize that an attacker's aggression (let's pretend the MA is on the defensive) can be quite a shock, impairing reflexes. most of you will argue that fighting in MMA tournaments will get rid of it, maybe, or maybe not. when you fight in a tournament you know you'll be alive after the fight, which unconsciously relaxes you. in a streetfight you don't know if you're going to make it out in one piece, which unconsiously tenses you. these might be small things but from my experience in the ring and the street they are the most important things.

i've always found that in the ring, no matter who i'm facing, i can go in relaxed, because although the other guys wants to hurt me, he doesn't want to kill me. on the street i've found that a certain level of tension exists, and when i go back to these fights i always wonder why i didn't do this or that. it's all because you're not sure you can walk away in street fights, and so the body tenses up, which as most MAists know is the worst thing you can do.

just my two cents :Angel:

Ikken Hisatsu

18-Nov-2004, 08:44 AM

either/or. and i didnt realise we were talking about a hardened veteran street fighter here :rolleyes:

af_sting

18-Nov-2004, 09:10 AM

Wow, it seems we have quite the ruckus here. All I was pointing out was that although I do feel Wushu is a sport martial arts, I think it has some benefits and I respect the athletic abilities of those who practice it (the same way I respect a gymnast).

I also think some people have fighting spirit and some don't. If a person is unlucky enough to square off with a person who's naturally tougher, stronger, and quicker, they will have to make up the deficits with training and fighting spirit (and perhaps luck, S&W, or H&K). Furthermore, I think some people have absolutely no fighting spirit, and no amount of training will make them into a good fighter.

-Sting

Ikken Hisatsu

18-Nov-2004, 09:18 AM

but of course then, why would someone with no will to fight become a fighter?

I do agree with you though on the fitness part. a good gymnast/wushu guy/rugby player stands more chance than someone who spends all their time doing katas and is built like a stick insect.

sholo86

18-Nov-2004, 09:53 AM

IMO, any MA style, to include modern Wushu, will always give that person a certain "advantage" against non-MA practicioners.

When you practice MA, you eventually develop this keen ability to assess confrontational situations (knowing when to fight, walk, or run). Your confidence in your skills and being able to use those skills/techniques appropriately, I think, is the key to any combat situation (of course I'm not counting on times when you get BUSHWHACKED by two or more people from behind and you end up on the ground, woozy, getting your butt kicked, and your laying there hoping your momma was there to save you :().

I believe, your MA skills will "kick in" automatically when the situation dictates (whether you spar and join tournaments a lot, or just train on perfecting your forms, ie: whushu).

Just my one and a half cent ....:)

Ikken Hisatsu

18-Nov-2004, 10:04 AM

not sure about that, i have a clip of two wing chun people sparring and they are terrible. they would, in my opinion, be better fighters without the training.

heres the clips if you're interested-
http://www.asce90.dsl.pipex.com/sallykickasspart1.AVI
http://www.asce90.dsl.pipex.com/sallykickasspart2.AVI

leeless

18-Nov-2004, 11:46 AM

Those clips hurt to watch.

KEEP YOUR GUARD UP!

Matt_Bernius

18-Nov-2004, 04:22 PM

One thing to consider, perhaps feeding the myth of the streetfighter, is that getting into fights on a regular basis is a form of practice. So in some of those cases of untrained beating trained, we should not that the agressor may have been "training" just not in a standard format.

Also it's important to note that whoever gets iniative in a fight is at a distinct advantage. This should be used to defeat one of the worst of Maritial Arts myths, you should wait to stike second in a self defense situation.

Beyond that, Wu Shu is gymnastics masquarading as martial art. Plain and simple, that is the case. It was designed that way and practiced that way.

As far as a Wu Shu person's ability to hit. They've got well developed muscles. That will help. But if they use Wu Shu body dynamic, and don't resort to a primal form of fighting, I dodn't think they have any real advanatge over a raging attacker.

And in all of this discussion we're leaving out the subject of genetics in helping set a base level of fighting ability. I have met people who were genetically predisposed to being a better fighter. That can't be overlooked as well.

Building out the "why did this happen such a way in a fight" model tends to involve many factors. Training is important but it's not the be all or end all. And I tend to think that heart really does make a HUGE difference when the combatants skill levels are even remotely close.

- Matt

sholo86

19-Nov-2004, 01:41 AM

(Beyond that, Wu Shu is gymnastics masquarading as martial art. Plain and simple, that is the case. It was designed that way and practiced that way.

As far as a Wu Shu person's ability to hit. They've got well developed muscles. That will help. But if they use Wu Shu body dynamic, and don't resort to a primal form of fighting, I dodn't think they have any real advanatge over a raging attacker.)
- Matt[/QUOTE]

I'm sorry Matt, but I'm going to have to disagree with you. Wushu is a martial arts style. The techniques may have been improvized and standardized to look pretty and dazzling during competitions for judging and points, but the applications for these movements remain the same...to block, hit, kick, grab, poke, choke, pull, dislocate, and break something.

Will a wushu practicioner be able to use these techniques in the street? If they are that confident about their skills, of course they can kick @ss...but if they hesitate then they get beat.

Really, it all boils down to the person and how fast he can translate what he learned from his MA training to a real combat situation.

Ikken Hisatsu

19-Nov-2004, 02:34 AM

translate what he learned from his MA training to a real combat situation.
there should be no need for this if you practice properly.

sholo86

19-Nov-2004, 03:45 AM

there should be no need for this if you practice properly.

and practice makes perfect, which again, goes back to the individual's dedication to his MA...

moondog

19-Nov-2004, 03:47 AM

sting's bang on... heart is the most important factor... i'd say at least 70% of the fight depends on a person's heart

Matt_Bernius

19-Nov-2004, 05:19 PM

I'm sorry Matt, but I'm going to have to disagree with you. Wushu is a martial arts style. The techniques may have been improvized and standardized to look pretty and dazzling during competitions for judging and points, but the applications for these movements remain the same...to block, hit, kick, grab, poke, choke, pull, dislocate, and break something.
The issue is that the techniques taught in Wu Shu have been so so far extracted from fighting techniques that the have effectively neutered the system. Hip articulation has been all but removed from the system. The techniques have been extended to the most extreme range of execution. The applications quite frankly are no longer the same. And this was the intent of Wu Shu. It was peiced together to maximize the athletic and minimize the martial. I speak from experience after training with Wu Shu poeple on numerous occaision and studying the history of it's development.

Wu Shu was developed NOT to be martial. Period. Why? Becuase there were FRIGGIN' Boxer Rebellions!!!!! China had no desire to create a national sport that could in any way be used for revolts!!!!!

That, btw, is why most traditionally minded kung fu people do not like anyone who attempts to buy into the Governement line that Contemporary Wu Shu in any way represents good Kung Fu.

And we have to deal with all of these issues before we even get into the fact that they don't work against pads or do any form of realistic sparring. It's gymnasitic dance. And just because one seems to punch and kick in the context of a dance doesn't mean that they can fight.

Will a wushu practicioner be able to use these techniques in the street? If they are that confident about their skills, of course they can kick @ss...but if they hesitate then they get beat. Really, it all boils down to the person and how fast he can translate what he learned from his MA training to a real combat situation.Frankly, if they were to attempt to use their Wu Shu, as they have learned it, against the average person who has snapped, they're going to get mowed over. No one likes admitting it, but that's most likely what is going to happen.

Note that is why I mentioned that if they revert to a more primal state, then they have a chance. But at that point they're ceasing using Wu Shu.

- Matt

sholo86

20-Nov-2004, 09:58 AM

Frankly, if they were to attempt to use their Wu Shu, as they have learned it, against the average person who has snapped, they're going to get mowed over. No one likes admitting it, but that's most likely what is going to happen.

- Matt
C'mon...can you honestly say that a well trained Wushu martial artist....oops...person, is not capable of kicking an average person's butt?
That the techniques...hmmm...gymnastics moves in wushu can not be applied in a fight? I still disagree...

I do agree though, that if you put a person who has snapped, a person who is not worried about his health against any martial artists, might have a slight advantage...we call it adrenaline and lots of it:)

Smee

20-Nov-2004, 11:00 AM

Traditional kung fu saying - "1st guts, 2nd power, 3rd kung fu"

I think some of you are only saying what's already been understood for centuries.

Matt_Bernius

22-Nov-2004, 07:22 PM

C'mon...can you honestly say that a well trained Wushu martial artist....oops...person, is not capable of kicking an average person's butt?
That the techniques...hmmm...gymnastics moves in wushu can not be applied in a fight? I still disagree...

I do agree though, that if you put a person who has snapped, a person who is not worried about his health against any martial artists, might have a slight advantage...we call it adrenaline and lots of it:)I think training Wu Shu give you about the same physical advatanges as training gymnastics. Improved strength and coordination. I also think it could be detrimental in that it may make it's practitioner believe that they are learning how to fight. They're not.

So I would say a Wu Shu person would have as much advantage as a gynmist in a fight.

And in most real fights, you are going against someone who snapped. And if they snap first then you have a lot of ground to catch up on.

I think modern Wu Shu is beautiful in the same way I think gynmastics and dance are beautiful. But it isn't combat oriented. And if it isn't combat oriented then you can't expect it to give you a significant advantage in combat.

Studying American Football, other than conditioning, really doesn't prepare you to play international Football.

- Matt

Infrazael

23-Nov-2004, 06:33 PM

ZenPolice

23-Nov-2004, 06:54 PM

Wushu is crap.Isn't this a lot like saying, "You are all crazy"?

Wushu is a beautiful art which requires tremendous flexibility, strength, and agility. It is not intended to be a combat form, but this does not make it "crap." I have great respect for wushu practitioners. It is not a stretch to say that anybody very skilled in a "psuedo-martial art" could, if they so choose, translate their abilities into an effective fighting art with relative ease. Wushu is, after all, descended from Northern Shaolin kung fu.

OblivionsAvatar

24-Nov-2004, 12:30 AM

Wushu is crap. All of their stances are remade to look good, and it offers virtually no stability, power generation, etc.

It's an excercise, designed to be a performance art and look good. In a combat situation, all they would have is speed and agility over the opponent.

There used to be a guy at my school, very good friend, who was a breakdancer. Now we all know that breakdancing, or the stuff we mostly see, has descended from Brazillian Capoera. This guy had no martial arts training, save a few pointers in Wing Chun from me, and every time we playfought he would crap all over me. He was the only person in school who could do this, and the only reason I could give was that he was just too damn fast. He had a very light, slight build, but was the most muscly, toned little man ive ever seen, very similar to....herherm......Bruce Lee. He was just too damn fast. He'd throw a punch, I'd block it and try and hit him at the same time, but hed already pushed that one out of the way and tapped me on the forehead. He was insanely good, and all he relied on was his speed to get around me, which worked 9 out of 10 times. Now if your humble hobby breakdancer can be that fast, imagine what it would be like to go against one of those professional Wushu artists....they would crap all over you.

Also, you telling me you'd voluntarily go head to head with Jet Li or Chow yun Fat, because you think wushu is crap?

PS: Good to see this thread up and running again, although we should probably rename it....

sholo86

24-Nov-2004, 01:51 AM

Studying American Football, other than conditioning, really doesn't prepare you to play international Football.

- Matt

I agree, and to emphasise my point again...if two people applied for a high school coaching job in football, who do you think the school will hire, the one who studied american football or the other guy who knows nothing about football? Having the skills, knowledge, and experience always gives a person a slight advantage against the one who doesn't...be it in athletic sports or to the most littlest of skills in arts and crafts.

All I'm saying is, a well trained Wushu practicioner will have some sort of an advantage against a person who doesn't have any MA background in a fight.

Just because they do not spar, doesn't mean that they do not understand the application of a certain movement or motion in their forms. Movements might be flashy and over the top but I'm sure student have a concept of its applications.

Ikken Hisatsu

24-Nov-2004, 02:15 AM

There used to be a guy at my school, very good friend, who was a breakdancer. Now we all know that breakdancing, or the stuff we mostly see, has descended from Brazillian Capoera. This guy had no martial arts training, save a few pointers in Wing Chun from me, and every time we playfought he would crap all over me. He was the only person in school who could do this, and the only reason I could give was that he was just too damn fast. He had a very light, slight build, but was the most muscly, toned little man ive ever seen, very similar to....herherm......Bruce Lee. He was just too damn fast. He'd throw a punch, I'd block it and try and hit him at the same time, but hed already pushed that one out of the way and tapped me on the forehead. He was insanely good, and all he relied on was his speed to get around me, which worked 9 out of 10 times. Now if your humble hobby breakdancer can be that fast, imagine what it would be like to go against one of those professional Wushu artists....they would crap all over you.

Also, you telling me you'd voluntarily go head to head with Jet Li or Chow yun Fat, because you think wushu is crap?

PS: Good to see this thread up and running again, although we should probably rename it....

thats a great story but theres a few glaring problems-

the fact that a complete newb tooled your entire kung fu class is NOT something to brag about.

you mention that you tried to block and react. ever wonder why you don't see "active blocking" (as in actually trying to hit an opponents punch away) used in things like boxing and mma tourneys? doesnt work, thats why.

you also mention that he "tapped" you. thats your biggest problem- you're playing his game of tag. of course a little small speedy guy is going to win in that situation. go put some gloves on and throw some real bonecrusher shots at him while he does his little speedy tip taps and see who comes out on top.

an average wushu practitioner? we get guys in all the time who come from gymnastics or other "speed" martial arts like taekwondo. but if they have never done any real sparring, they fold like paper after the first hit and turn into deadly windmill fists man.

bcullen

24-Nov-2004, 04:08 AM

The issue is that the techniques taught in Wu Shu have been so so far extracted from fighting techniques that the have effectively neutered the system. Hip articulation has been all but removed from the system. The techniques have been extended to the most extreme range of execution. The applications quite frankly are no longer the same. And this was the intent of Wu Shu. It was peiced together to maximize the athletic and minimize the martial. I speak from experience after training with Wu Shu poeple on numerous occaision and studying the history of it's development.

Wu Shu was developed NOT to be martial. Period. Why? Becuase there were FRIGGIN' Boxer Rebellions!!!!! China had no desire to create a national sport that could in any way be used for revolts!!!!!

That, btw, is why most traditionally minded kung fu people do not like anyone who attempts to buy into the Governement line that Contemporary Wu Shu in any way represents good Kung Fu.

And we have to deal with all of these issues before we even get into the fact that they don't work against pads or do any form of realistic sparring. It's gymnasitic dance. And just because one seems to punch and kick in the context of a dance doesn't mean that they can fight.

Frankly, if they were to attempt to use their Wu Shu, as they have learned it, against the average person who has snapped, they're going to get mowed over. No one likes admitting it, but that's most likely what is going to happen.

Note that is why I mentioned that if they revert to a more primal state, then they have a chance. But at that point they're ceasing using Wu Shu.

- Matt

Actually, I would have to disagree here. The difference is in training methods and focus. Some of the traditional sets have been improvised and have elements that are strictly gymnastic in origon. Much of what is taught is an amalgamation of different styles (Like taking parts of Wado, Uechi, Goju, Kyokushin and combining them). Very recently I was shown the Longfist short form (32). I'd say about half of what I learned was very familiar to me already. The other half took some getting used to. Though by most folks concept of Wu Shu this form is pretty lackluster, no flips, and two kicks in the whole thing. There was nothing neutered about the movements.

The state run schools at one time stopped teaching the applications and put the focus on flare over substance, much in the same way people in the west have been taught Tai Chi without the Chuan element. The schools were run like olympic gymnastic camps. Some still are. But for the most part that era has been over for sometime. The Chinese martial arts were not totally wiped out by the communists, like anything that is outlawed it just goes underground.

The difference between a fighter a contemporary Wu Shu athlete stems mostly from not being taught the intent of the techniques and in not working the details like bag work and sparring. They only have a third of the whole pie. With a shift in training focus they could be good fighters as well.

Matt_Bernius

24-Nov-2004, 11:40 PM

bcullen,

Agreed on numerous points. I wasn't exact enough. On the surface, there are numerous similiarites between many Wu Shu forms and more traditional Chinese arts. And yes, Kung Fu teachers were involved in the creation of the art.

But, let's get down into some of the nitty gritty and pick apart much of contemporary wu shu. First of all, most forms have taken out concepts like the body harmonies. Arms tend to move without support of hips. In fact, there is very little intergrated body dymanic for the generation of power in strikes. When I got the chance to train with a Chinese Wu Shu team I was constantly being reminded to separate my upper and lower body motions. This already removes much of the fighting application of the arts.

Go back and look at examples like Wheel of Life and you'll see the same thing over and over.

With a change of training structure, yes, people can learn to fight. However that also means changing a lot of the execution side of Wu Shu.

The point I'm trying to say here is that you can spend a heck of a lot of time reading about swimming, exercising, and practicing the stokes on land. But that's no guarentee that when you hit the water you will perform any better than someone whose doggie paddling on instinct.

I don't understand why this is such a difficult concept to accept. And I'm willing to admit that I may have a bias here. But if that is the case, it's been formed after working with state sponsored contemporary Wu Shu people and not being impressed by the martial application of their techniques. They could fly. No question. They were strong. No question. The were flexible. No question. Could they actually fight? Big questions. I wish that I would have been in a position to spar with them. Unfortunately that was not to be. However, simply feeling there techniques... ehh. They had strength, but not much else.

I can say that I've felt much harder hits from instructors that didn't have anywhere near the same level of conditioning, but had structure down pact.

- Matt

The_Cynic

08-Jan-2005, 02:45 AM

I'm surprised this thread is still struggling along. KempoDave, you still training Teoul Moon or are you into Kempo? Phroe, don't take it too personally. Mark Goblowski made a choice a long time ago. He decided the traditional system was not right, for whatever reason, and changed it. That's why some say it's watered down. I've not been there in over three years, but last time I was, I was surprised at how much they've stretched out the training. Some of the stuff must have been assimilated from other systems, because it's certainly not Teoul Moon.

My personal opinion is that Goblowski is trying to make money. When I trained with him (1989-1992) he trained a very traditional system with a high turnover rate and no contracts for $45/month. Only about 15-20% remained after 3 months and very few lasted more than a year. He knew he had to "water it down" or he'd never make a living. Of course his wife leaving him only encouraged him to become ruthless. Combine that with all that new wave Dan Millman crap he got into and he changed more than Dr Jeckle and Mr Hyde.. He grew his hair long and became "kool". Right or wrong, he chose to run a business as opposed to a traditional school. Do I blame him....not really. Do I disagree...yeah, but I don't have a school, so who the hell am I? This is just my two cents bro.

In closing, all I can say is expect people to bash Mark because he's treated some people poorly. Just ask Steve Michaud, Dave Presley, or any of the other instructors (and there are many) he essentially shut-out after years of loyalty and service. Goblowski's favorite saying; "It's my way or the highway".

By the way, if you talk to Mark, tell him Ray Page said “hi” and I wish him well.

-Sting
Ray...how in the heck are you doing, man? This is Mark A...from the "old days"...AF_Sting and I studied under Mr. Goblowski a long, long time ago. I was his first student, and things have changed quite a bit since I trained under him (1988-1990)...at the time, the training was conducted in the traditional manner; physical conditioning, stance work, basic punches and basic kicks done for a long period of time before we actually learned the first form. I had brought many of my friends to train with me, but they quickly lost interest due to how tough it really was. Even to this day, whenever I study another system and start breaking a sweat, I wait for the familiar burn, the exhaustion, that is not there to make me quit, but to push myself harder, because I learned my limits many years ago, and realized I could work through them..."Pain is temporary, Dishonor is forever" rings in my mind (this was from other hand-to-had combat training I had through a DoD-sponsored school, but it rings true nonetheless). I had started training in another system in 1989, and eventually left Mr. Goblowski's school in the beginning of 1990...not from anything he did, just from a misperception I had...He and I discussed it, and set things straight. He was really cool about it, and never intended to hurt my feelings. I was young, and gave into my ego, and felt it would be better for me to continue my studies elsewhere. Fortunately, the other system I studied helped me realize some truths about myself. All in all, I feel that I am a better martial artist for having studied under Mr. Goblowski, but the training I went through with him is far, far, far different than what he students have been going through the last few years.

--The_Cynic

bcbernam777

08-Jan-2005, 11:43 AM

What was this thread about?????????? :D

MartialArts_guy

11-Jan-2005, 07:04 PM

af_sting

11-Jan-2005, 10:38 PM

Martial Arts Guy,

I notice in your profile it says you study Kung Fu. Where is there a kung fu school in Omaha? I've not been there for some time, so I'm curious.

-Sting

MartialArts_guy

12-Jan-2005, 08:55 PM

I studied in China under Shi De Cheng.

Sifu Shen Fon

12-Jan-2005, 10:02 PM

Um,in case anyone missed it,in traditional chinese kung fu the word "dojo" for school is not used that is a japanese term and dojang is used for school in korea,the proper name for a kung fu school is "Gwoon" or "Kwoon" if northern chinese.

Lau Gar Gung Fu
Sifu

Infrazael

12-Jan-2005, 10:08 PM

"Kwoon"? Doesn't sound like any Mandarin I know (and I speak fluent Mandarin)

Sorry. Is there a better English spelling of the word???

af_sting

13-Jan-2005, 03:26 AM

I thought "Kwoon" was Korean? Not sure, just asking.

-Sting

Edit - I did a quick search and found that Kwoon is indeed the correct term for school. McKwoon just does not sound as good though. :D

-Sting

Sifu Shen Fon

14-Jan-2005, 08:19 PM

Heh,i should hope im right about it being called a Kwoon,i am a Gung Fu teacher after all. :D

sholo86

21-Jan-2005, 09:30 AM

I just read the thread and everything so it's a little late for the reply but I am going to say it anyway. It's pathetic that you guys have to make fun of someone's name like SoKKlab and Sholo86 did. Oh and I live in the Omaha metro area and that school that KenpoDavid talked about is a great school and has very good instructors. Though KenpoDavid wasn't completely lieing there is a Mcdojo in the Omaha Metro area its Christopher N Geary's Shaolin Kempo Karate Inc. This school claims to be Shaolin and teaches a Japanese martial Arts Style. Not to mention if you step into one of his schools you could see it is.

Sorry, I mean no disrespect about the name calling... but SoKKlab started it :)

Anyway, MA_guy, if you think Mr G's school is great then good luck to you. I have not trained under him so I can't say much about how he conduct his classes/training. Heck, I'm not even sure if he studied a different martial arts style and decided to combine these techniques with what he learned from Teoul Moon and teach this "new style" to his students. This is his business, his bread and butter and I have no issues with that. The only thing that gets to me is when he advertises what he teaches as Teoul Moon kung Fu.

I just want to emphasize that Mr G is not qualified or certified to instruct any techniques or traditions of the Teoul Moon kung fu system. He's not even allowed to use any names, images, or concept associated with Teoul Moon. So what does this tell me? To me it sounds like a McDojo, but hey, he's out there making lots of money. I believe he's even trying to open up another McSchool. I guess business is booming in Bellevue. I wish him luck.

Dr.Syn

21-Jan-2005, 09:58 AM

A martial arts school in a mall has got to be a huge warning sign. That guy probably has to run 200 or 300 students a month just to make it.

That about says it all...

KenpoDavid

21-Jan-2005, 04:22 PM

I just read the thread and everything so it's a little late for the reply but I am going to say it anyway. It's pathetic that you guys have to make fun of someone's name like SoKKlab and Sholo86 did. Oh and I live in the Omaha metro area and that school that KenpoDavid talked about is a great school and has very good instructors. Though KenpoDavid wasn't completely lieing there is a Mcdojo in the Omaha Metro area its Christopher N Geary's Shaolin Kempo Karate Inc. This school claims to be Shaolin and teaches a Japanese martial Arts Style. Not to mention if you step into one of his schools you could see it is.

That's very funny, you are almost certainly a student at Goblowski's trying to point the finger back at the school where I attend, in a childish attempt to get revenge or something. if you think CNG's is a McDojo then let';s discuss why you think so. That means you think students at CNGs are not learning real self-defense? I can prove to you that we are... e-mail me if you want to know how... although you sound liek a kid so maybe _I_ can't prove it to you (but maybe some of the kids your own age from my dojo can?)

but anyway I think most people are aware that Shaolin Kempo is not "claiming to be Shaolin" and that Shaolin kempo is not a Japanese style, it was in fact developed in America based on Kajukenbo, from Hawaii. So either you are very mis-informed, or you are trying to use lies to smear CNG's schools. Which are 2 things that I avoided in my original post in this thread well over a year ago. So when did you walk into one of our schools?

af_sting - when he says he studies kung-fu in Omaha I am positive he means with Goblowski. I don't think the YiLiQuan guys are so immature as to post something like this. I know Sifu Tim and I can't believe any if his students would act this way... he doesn't have a kids class. I don't know of any other "kung fu" in Omaha (not to say ther isn't any, but I'm pretty well aware of most of the schools in the area)

-David

PS - MA-Guy please email me for sure I will set you straight as to what a "mcdojo" is really about :D

Sifu Shen Fon

24-Jan-2005, 09:31 PM

It seems by dint of accident i have stirred up this whole rash mess of "Mcdojo".
Because of this i feel horrible for perfectly honorable Martial Artists arguing amongst one another.
I did know much about the style of the young man i was ingiuring about but im sure he is a fine person who is very skilled.
I have also come to discover somthing about Martial Arts and the dedicated people who study,refine and perfect them here at this website as well as all over the world.
Even if we have our differences at times and dont always agree with one another we should all respect and honor each other as Martial Artists and people.There are many things we do not know about each other's arts,myself included.But i think we should be able to put our differences aside to understand how much alike we all truely are.
it was foolish of me to presume the young man was not a true student and that his art was strange because i knew nothing of it.
My heart goes out to all the students and masters who suffered becuase of this.

Please my fellow artists,lets stop fighting and go back to respect one another's school and arts.
Because in the end that is the number one reason we started learning in the first place.
We learned so we could respect others and in return gain respect for ourselves.

I bow my head in apology to all of you.
Please lets show the respect we know is there for all the arts and artists.

Lau Gar Gung Fu
Sifu

Shou Tu

25-Jan-2005, 08:19 AM

"Kwoon"? Doesn't sound like any Mandarin I know (and I speak fluent Mandarin)

Sorry. Is there a better English spelling of the word???

Quan

bcbernam777

25-Jan-2005, 08:20 AM

Quan
koon, keen, Kwan, quang, Kwik, :D

Tseek Choi

27-Jan-2005, 11:40 AM

I thought:

Quan = Fist
kwoon = hall/space for training
kwan = staff

Loads of other possibilities though!!!!!!!

PsiProne

01-Feb-2005, 05:12 PM

I just started a class last night at Mark Goblowsky's Martial Arts. How about that? Of course, with my luck, I discover this thread the very next morning. LOL. :Angel:

Anyway, so far I have no problem with the place, but thanks to this thread I can be more alert if such questions arise. So far, I do like Mr. G and the other instructors, the are very nice. I thought I had a very nice first session. Fellow students were always willing to help me out with stuff.

All I did to find this place was type in Mark Goblowsky.

EDIT: Here's the school's website btw: http://members.cox.net/gbeem50/AAMA/AAMAhome.htm

Any LJ'ers out there?
http://www.livejournal.com/users/psiprone :cool:

Infrazael

01-Feb-2005, 06:12 PM

By Kwoon, do you mean "Gwan"???

sholo86

02-Feb-2005, 09:28 AM

Goodluck PsiProne with your class.

I'm curious though as to what style of kung fu Mr G is teaching these days? You think it would be nice to know what kung fu style you're being taught? Since you just joined his class, maybe you can tell me. I'm sure he gave you a little bit of his MA style history, a background of what he is going to teach in class before you signed up right?

teoul

02-Feb-2005, 11:14 AM

Yes, good luck with the classes PsiProne. Go with an open mind.

I am as curious as sholo86 about the answer to the system they teach. I noticed from their website they have pictures of students doing the Teoul Moon stances, which he is not authorized to teach. I would be interested in how he would answer the question of why he teaches from a system he is not authorized to.

Again, good luck, keep an open mind and make your own informed desicion.

af_sting

02-Feb-2005, 12:44 PM

I just started a class last night at Mark Goblowsky's Martial Arts. How about that? Of course, with my luck, I discover this thread the very next morning. LOL. :Angel:
I'd not let this thread slow you down. If you're learning and feel what you are learning is good (or fun depending on your objectives) then disregard what anyone says.

Anyway, so far I have no problem with the place, but thanks to this thread I can be more alert if such questions arise. So far, I do like Mr. G and the other instructors, the are very nice. I thought I had a very nice first session. Fellow students were always willing to help me out with stuff.
That's really good and I'd not be too paranoid about what you've read here. Historically problems don't arise until people become instructors. I know of at least five people that were once really good friends with Mark and then he essentially disowned them (including myself) and I've been told by other friends that that trend has continued. I do notice that Jerry Tregiser(sp) is still there (it looks like him but the picture is small), so obviously this is not a rule. I guess the best I can say is keep an open mind and get the most out of it. Besides, you've obviously signed the contract, so your stuck with paying for it anyways, so enjoy it. :rolleyes:

Incidentally, I'm glad Mark finally cut his hair! Dang hippies anyways! :D

-Sting