[Choi Kwang Do] Ex Choi Kwang-Do instructor would like to say his piece!

[captainmoomoo]

Dear All,

I am new to this forum - just accidentally surfed in...

I am an ex-CKD instructor who practiced the art for almost 9 years. I was reading the VERY LONG thread on ckd, and can relate to and understand a lot of what was said by both sides.

I realise that the thread is quite old now, but I was wondering if anyone would like to hear my bit - of why and how I left CKD and why I switched to Taekwondo instead?

[Tosh]

OMG!!!

I would really tag it on to the long running CKD thread rather than start a new one!! :D

Am very interested though!! :D

"Shadies and Mentalmen.........Let's get ready to rumble!"

[captainmoomoo]

You REALLY wanna know??? ;-)

[Melanie]

Nice to have you onboard - a fresh perspective :) Please go ahead but be warned - the topic rules must be adhered to and I remind everyone that takes part in this thread to look at them again!

[Cain]

Last time I joined the war I made a dunce out of myself so this time lemme just sit back with my popcorn and french fries ;)

|Cain|

[captainmoomoo]

OK people, it's coming. It's long, but it's coming...

[Andy Murray]

Could I ask the general forum members not to post unless they have already read every page of the 'Choi Kwang Do' thread (http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=548) It'd be really tiring to have all the same comments being made again.

Thanks.

Andy

[TkdWarrior]

hmm that's intresting... let's hear it..
-TkdWarrior-

[morphus]

I am very interested in your views & comments.....please go on.

Being a current CKD instructor kinda puts me in the middle of "all this". BUT i am NOT one of the purists & know that CKD has it's faults; however if you do tell your story, tell it fair - it would not perhaps be fair to verbally bash individuals who cannot defend themselves here. Sound fair?
Also picking on techniques too is a little unfair as most members of this forum have no frame of reference(as has been proven in past postings).

If politics is your beef go ahead as long as you can sustain any accusations.

OR you can ignore my askings & start Choi war 3! LOL

If you'd like to PM me regarding anything to do with CKD &/or this forum i will be happy to listen & have an interest in any comments you might have.:)

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by morphus

OR you can ignore my askings & start Choi war 3! LOL



*Note*

The original CKD thread got very personal and insulting, so it was deleted.

Fortunately the member to blame no longer visits here.

[captainmoomoo]

It's long. OK, here goes...

Introduction:
I started martial arts around 14 years ago. The first one I studied as a child was Judo, which I only managed to keep up for a year or so. I then moved on to ITF-style Tae Kwon-Do, again only staying for a year and reaching the rank of Green belt (6th Kup).

After that I joined my local Shotokan Karate club, which at the time was under the KUGB. They let me keep my TKD rank, and so after a year I reached Brown/White belt (2nd Kyu). This time round I was serious about my training, and I was really prepping myself for my 1st Dan grading.

It was by chance that I came across the local Choi Kwang-Do school, run by Keith Banfield (now a 4th Dan black belt). I was immediately impressed by his calibre as a martial artist, and by his description of what makes CKD so different to many other traditional martial arts.

The difference in power, fluidity, and practicality amazed me, and made me 'realise' that I had wasted my time doing the other arts that I had dabbled in. I made the decision to switch immediately, and started afresh as a CKD white belt...

But I had a niggling concern at the back of my mind. A concern that would grow with my experience of CKD, and would eventually lead to my departure from it.

My concern was that even though the CKD 'Technical Specification' was great, the people studying it were not. They were all very nice people I'm sure, but I'm talking about the overall technical ability and skill level that CKD exponents possess. From my previous experience, I had noted that in pretty much all the styles and organisations I had studied in, there would be a mix of abilities. VERY simply speaking, there would be a section of the group that would be pretty bad, a section that would be quite good, and a small minority of exponents who were exceptional.

In CKD, the breakdown was a little different: the vast majority were REALLY bad, a tiny minority were pretty good, and there was only one man, in my opinion, who was exceptional. That man is Grandmaster Kwang Jo Choi, the founder of CKD, and believe me when I say that he is AWESOME. An incredible martial artist who, at the age of 63 can perform better than most people less than half his age. As for the tiny minority who were pretty good, I can count them on one hand (and you know who you are if you're reading this).

Granted, I haven't had the pleasure of meeting every CKD practitioner in the world, but I have seen MANY (and let's face it, there aren't loads of them).

It was quite easy to identify the cause of the problem - the CKD gradings were far too easy to pass, even though they were actually physically quite demanding. It seems as if it didn't matter how well or poorly one performed in a grading - you were pretty much always guaranteed to pass. This, I feel, was wrong. Slack grading after slack grading, an individual would pass through the ranks until they reached their black belt exam - and by then, it was too late. I believe that this is the reason why the standard of most CKD black belts is so poor. Poor black belts go on to become poor instructors, who go on to produce more poor black belts... and so the cycle continues.

I decided back then, soon after I had started doing CKD, that one day, when I have the power to do so, I would try to change things.

Main body:
And so I thought that time had come, when I opened my own school, a little over four years ago. I guess this is the reason why many others in CKD consider me to be quite a harsh instructor - because I push my students, constructively criticizing their performance so that they may improve, holding them back from gradings if I believe their performance and effort are not at satisfactory levels, explaining to them that a lacklustre performance will certainly result in failure.

Unfortunately my efforts were thwarted, as gradings normally took place with other schools. It quickly became clear to my students that what I was telling them, was simply not the case, as the gradings proved otherwise.

A new development in the CKD grading system made things, in my opinion, worse for the students. In martial arts such as Karate and TKD, there are normally about 9/10 coloured belts towards black belt (I can't speak for other martial arts as I don't know). In CKD there used to be just over 10 belts. Now, as the syllabus stands today, there are 9 coloured belts - white, yellow, gold, orange, green, blue, purple, red, and brown. However, there are also intermediate stages - white senior, yellow senior etc. This takes the total number of coloured belts to 18 (grading every 2 months), before an individual is eligible for 1st Dan (after 3 years).

However, the syllabus content does not change significantly from a solid colour belt to the next senior belt. The additional content is as insignificant as a turn in the current pattern. Nothing else. The dan grades also have intermediate stages. Each grading costs £20 (in the UK), except for the dan grades, which start from over £100 (not the intermediate stages in the dan grades though).

I felt that the number of belts was unnecessary, and as instructors we were not justified in charging our students '£20 for a turn'.

This year I made a bold decision which led to my departure. I decided to hold my own gradings for my own students, where I could ensure that students were challenged and rewarded more appropriately. I also made a decision to 'scrap' the senior stages, and effectively double grade students from one solid coloured belt to the next. This would have the effect of saving the students money, as well as increasing the grading interval from 2 months to 3 months (which I felt was more appropriate). As far as administration fees paid to CKD HQ were concerned, there would be no change whatsoever.

This however, broke the following rules of CKD Martial Art International:
1. You can't just change the grading system to what you want it to be!
2. To examine students independently, you have to be a Certified Examiner.

My status was as an Assistant Examiner. Even today, I still do not understand what this designation means. I have marked hundreds of grading cards to this day, sitting shoulder to shoulder with other Assistant and Certified Examiners doing exactly the same thing. There does not seem to be any distinction in the roles and responsibilites between the two (apart from the simple matter of a certification fee (but no associated course or exam)).

CKD Martial Art International had no choice whatsoever but to expell me from the organisation.

Conclusion:
After a survey of different organisations, I decided that WTF-style Taekwondo would be a compatible system for me and my school to join. This may surprise many CKD pracitioners out there. Contrary to popular belief (within the CKD community), martial arts such as Karate and Taekwondo do not damage the body from lockout movements etc. If one practices these arts incorrectly then yes, they can lead to injury, as can an incorrect practice of CKD.

One of the things that I have never admired about CKD's marketing is its negative portrayal of other martial arts. One such example is in the instructional video 'CKD Basic Principle and Techniques - Part 2'. Overall this is a FANTASTIC video, with Grandmaster Choi himself performing almost all CKD techniques up to black belt level.

(For all CKD students who are reading this, make sure you get yourself a copy quickly while stocks last, as this is no longer produced)

However, near the beginning of the tape, a comparison is made to so-called 'Traditional' styles. This turns out to be little more than an EXTREMELY (and deliberately) poor execution of ITF-style TKD one-step sparring. Beginner inductions in many schools also start out with such inaccurate comparisons. Wouldn't it be nice, if it was a simple matter of saying, "This is the way we kick and punch in CKD. This is why it's great and why we love it!" rather than putting down other arts to 'try' to prove the point.

It is important for CKD practitioners to understand that many of the comparisions made, are only accurate when talking about an old version of Tae Kwon-Do. Specifically, ITF-style Tae Kwon-Do, as it may have been practiced around 20 years ago. Things have moved on quite a bit now, and these traditional styles have also developed quite considerably in that time, just as CKD has.

Another claim that CKD marketing makes is that traditional techniques lack power and practicality. This is simply not true. I have made many friends during my years in the martial arts - Karate and TKD people specifically. I WOULD NOT LIKE TO FIGHT THEM. CKD is a great art, but so are the others out there. Ultimately it comes down to the individual and the way they train, NOT the art itself.

However, at the same time, I believe it is VERY difficult to be good at what you do, to realise your true potential, IF you're doing Choi Kwang-Do. My reasoning for this, is that poor standards are taken to be the norm in CKD, and so it becomes difficult for students to rise above the pack. It is possible though...

And I believe that this is what it all comes down to - BE THE BEST YOU CAN AT WHAT YOU DO.

I hope I have managed to state my position in a clear manner. At the same time I wish to apologise to any CKD practitioners reading this if I have inadvertently offended any of you by my comments above. I look forward to reading all your comments.

Thanks and Pil Sung (Certain Victory)

[LilBunnyRabbit]

As for the tiny minority who were pretty good, I can count them on one hand (and you know who you are if you're reading this).

It might have been worth your while travelling to see other schools more if this is what worried you, I have seen many exceptional students across England, more than I can count, let alone trying to count them on one hand.


The additional content is as insignificant as a turn in the current pattern.
[quote]
And adding some extra techniques, as well as different drills. I see nothing wrong with giving people two months to master new techniques each time, rather than just giving them double the number of techniques each time. Especially since you were complaining about the quality of the practioners (might be that I've got a particularly good instructor, but I've never found this a complaint at all).

[quote]
My status was as an Assistant Examiner. Even today, I still do not understand what this designation means. I have marked hundreds of grading cards to this day, sitting shoulder to shoulder with other Assistant and Certified Examiners doing exactly the same thing.

In the same way as Assistant Instructor, it simply means that you cannot examine and pass your students on your own, while an Assistant Instuctor cannot set up their own school. Irritating maybe, but hardly unreasonable. Especially since the concept was brought in partly to make sure that those who had the final say in gradings would in theory have more experience and so be harsher.


Wouldn't it be nice, if it was a simple matter of saying, "This is the way we kick and punch in CKD. This is why it's great and why we love it!" rather than putting down other arts to 'try' to prove the point.

Many schools do this, not all market themselves on the inferiority of other arts. You might also notice that WTF and ITF consider themselves superior to each other and other arts, as does just about every other large martial arts organisation out there.


It is important for CKD practitioners to understand that many of the comparisions made, are only accurate when talking about an old version of Tae Kwon-Do.

Which I have seen practiced more regularly than the more modern version. Now, I haven't seen all TKD students (and some of those I have, many of those on this board in fact, are good and practice the modern TKD), or karate, or any other art (see same comment as for TKD), but you haven't seen many CKD students, and yet their 'poor quality' was one of your major complaints.


However, at the same time, I believe it is VERY difficult to be good at what you do, to realise your true potential, IF you're doing Choi Kwang-Do. My reasoning for this, is that poor standards are taken to be the norm in CKD, and so it becomes difficult for students to rise above the pack.

It may be my instructor, but while this may apply to your experience of CKD, it certainly doesn't come close to applying to my own.

[Melanie]

I have got to say ckdstudent and captainmoomoo, that I am impressed with the way that this 'conversation' has gone so far. Even the spelling and grammar is accurate. I look forward to hearing more inciteful, informed and rounded debate from you both.

On my part, I have been extremely fortunate in that I have experienced many different arts in extremely short bursts and have found that the majority make the claim that their art is better than others. As humans we are an extremely competitive breed and some people seem to get off on this.

I have to say I am quite surprised captainmoomoo that you have found so few students of CKD that you consider to be 'good', but your expectations may be higher than others? Once in a while there is one person born among us who seem to be pure energy and passion in their chosen MA (like I assume you found the Founder of CKD?) and it is unfair to think you may find many others like that. Most of us are pretty ordinary just trying to do our best :)

I cannot tell from your profile how long you have trained in MA or how old you are now but there may be areas that you haven't had the time, chance or inclination to look into - their may be five pupils in a class in Berwick-Upon-Tweed who may absolutely astound you? But is that the basis of your argument? The impression that comes accross to me in the above post is that you personally found that the training for yourself wasn't challenging and competitive enough and that you would benefit elsewhere. You also intimated that the fees were a little over the top too (incidentally - I agree!). I may be wrong in making that assumption and if so I do sincerely apologise, but if that is the case - would that be sufficient reason to find it so lacking? There are obviously others (ckdstudent, morphus) that have found CKD to be compelling and have dedicated themselves to their art for an extended period of time. Who knows, maybe in a few years you may find that TKD is no longer the answer to your MA career. Whilst we mature and expand our knowledge and are open-minded to the other arts and what each one can offer, I feel IMHO that we can make ourselves more rounded in the way we can respond to many situations. It also depends on why you want to train aswell. Some people train for the discipline, the fitness factor, self defence or just simply to make friends.

I too have found my training some what lacking in fields that I personally find important to me so I now cross train. I am aware that I am not that good myself but I do my best and have been appropriately rewarded (I hope). I too have been to other classes and watched for an evening and have felt absolutely positive that if I took part in that class I would embarass the 1st Dan Black Belt, as I can complete my techniques (in what I would consider) better and proper conduct. I will also agree that a poor Instructor will only produce poor students and the cycle continues. But thats not the art as you say, its the people in it. It's the insecurity of the Instructors that constantly pound other arts which in turn leads the students to not looking at other classes and other arts and the Instructor is able to keep their money rolling in on a consistant basis. (In other words - you know you have a good Instructor when they encourage you to look at other classes and other arts - and ask you to be more 'active' in your own training).

I am sorry you didn't get to challenge the art within its ranks, as it is such a relatively new art you may have been able to make significant changes - I am delighted however, that you kept an open-mind and strove to provide the best instruction for your students in furtherance of yours and your students MA career.

[morphus]

Captainmoomoo - Respect to your ethics! If that is how you felt then you prob' did the right thing in trying to right what you thought was wrong & unfortunate to be expelled.

So much politics:(

The founder is a master artist in the true sense of the words & unfortunately he broke the mold.
I will not argue with you that there are too few exeptional CKD practitioners out there(& sadly i am not one of them - i know that), but i wouldn't call myself bad, i aim to be as good as i can be & i feel i teach CKD & self defence pretty well.

I have conflicts within myself over similar things within CKD business & syllibus which is why i am no longer a (joint)school owner, i still teach however, as i love the base of the art.
With CKD as my base, i have studied Combat Ju Jitsu which i found to be a good blend adding to my martial arts knowledge.

In CKD, it is when you talk of blending another art or complain that something (along the lines of syllibus) is costing too much money that it becomes a problem. The arts directors seem to keep it the way they want it & don't listen that well to the instructors that run the schools.
In Wales where i teach we've always had problems with some of the points you touched upon in your post, but i personally am not at a point where i may be thinking to leave - this is MY choice.

I feel it sad that CKD has lost a enthusiastic student/instructor (your not the first & i doubt the last) through disagreement in the way syllibus & business go all too readily hand in hand.

I totally understand where you are coming from & i wish you every success where ever you go in the future with your Martial arts training! :)

[Jim]

Well I'm pleasantly surprised... I thought Captain moo moo was yet another troll! Happy to be disappointed and look forward to more comments in other areas of our happy little (cooler controlled) land called MAP. ;)

Welcome aboard.

[Freeform]

Welcome to the Forum Captain Moo Moo.

Where about do you hail from?

Col

[Tosh]

Originally posted by ckdstudent
You might also notice that WTF and ITF consider themselves superior to each other and other arts, as does just about every other large martial arts organisation out there.


*cough*, *cough*

Want to add a "In my experience" or "Some" there please?? :D

I do not like the insinuation that I think my art is better than anyone elses.

Sheesh, what ever happened to tact and diplomacy?? :p

Thank You !

Now I have to say that I have never met a CKD student yet that hasn't bashed me for doing ITF TKD, without even seeing my class! Maybe I'm unlucky, maybe theres something wrong with the instruction, but surely respect still exists somewhere??

My students will tell you if I ever catch them bashing they get thoroughly embarrassed!

[captainmoomoo]

Dear All,

Thank you for your kind responses (and sorry for the late response - computer problems). Freeform, I am based in the UK. Any CKD instructors reading this may have caught on while reading my previous post, and worked out who I am by now.

One thing I have always admired about CKD practitioners is their loyalty to the art, and their genuine love and respect for its founder. This is quite evident in postings from CKDStudent and other CKD exponents. I have never quite experienced this to the same level in the other styles I have studied.

CKDStudent, I think it is great that you have found something that truly makes you feel complete and happy. You are very lucky.

I also consider myself to be lucky to have had the opportunity to study CKD. As much as I may have disagreed with the way certain things are done in CKD, I cannot ignore the things that are most definitely good about it. If it wasn't for my schooling in CKD, I wouldn't be the martial artist I am today, and much of what I have learned in CKD has put in good stead during my transfer over to WTF-style TKD.

I would agree that a lot of what I posted regarding poor standards is a matter of perception. Most people coming off the street into a martial arts class will not have had any previous experience. Such people are not in a position to be able to determine whether the standards they see before them are good or bad, as they have not been subjected to anything else before. Perhaps this is why many CKD practioners feel quite happy with the standards in their art.

My first impression when I walked into my first CKD class was "THIS IS CRAP!", but that was because I was looking at it from a Shotokan perspective. The movements were a little too fluid and dynamic for my liking. They certainly weren't as sharp and precise as what I was doing in Karate. After the instructor's explanation of what CKD is and what makes it so great, I was better able to understand and appreciate it. Even though CKD is so different to Shotokan Karate, my previous experience enabled me to extrapolate, that the instructor was very good at what he was doing.

In fact, as the last nine years have elapsed, the awe and respect I have for my CKD instructor has continued to grow. The same goes for CKD's founder. It became clear to me from the CKD videos, that Grandmaster Choi is truly a Grand Master of his art, and this has been repeatedly confirmed to me everytime I have met him.

My previous experience however, also enabled me to extrapolate, that most other (not all) CKD practitioners (that I have seen) are not good at what they do. In all my travels, even as far out as America to train with Grandmaster Choi himself, I have only met a handful of 'good' practitioners. In the early stages it wasn't too bad. I was determined to train for my own progress, and not be disheartened by the poor standards around me. And like CKDStudent, my own instructor was also particularly good at helping me achieve this.

In response to CKDStudent, what I specifically didn't like about the new CKD syllabus was of course the insignificant 'turn' in the patterns when going from coloured belt to senior belt. The new techniques taught at the senior stages weren't actually that different from those taught at the solid coloured belt. For example, one is taught side kick at yellow belt, and then rear leg side kick at yellow belt senior. Again, rear round punch at yellow belt, and leading round punch at yellow belt senior. The two techniques are hardly two techniques - they are in fact one.

\begin{quote}
Many schools do this, not all market themselves on the inferiority of other arts. You might also notice that WTF and ITF consider themselves superior to each other and other arts, as does just about every other large martial arts organisation out there.
\end{quote}

While not all CKD schools market themselves in a way that is derogatory to other styles, CKD Martial Art International certainly advocates this method. If not, then there would be no need for inaccurate and unfair comparisons, such as the ones made in the CKD Basic Techniques video, and by many CKD practitioners (as repeatedly made in this forum). Perhaps this is the reason why Tosh_Spice has never met a CKD practitioner yet, that hasn't bashed her(?) for doing ITF TKD?

I agree with CKDStudent's example of WTF and ITF TKD. Some members of these two groups do indeed harbour such opinions and feelings. However not ALL of them do. My WTF instructor certainly doesn't. I personally think ITF and WTF are both beautiful arts in their own ways. As a WTF practitioner I most definitely do not consider myself to be practising an art superior to ITF TKD. Even my WTF instructor, who is a 6th Dan Master, acknowledges my CKD background, and accepts whatever he feels is good from it.

It's the difference between "What is mine is good" and "What is good is mine".

[Tosh]

Originally posted by captainmoomoo
Tosh_Spice has never met a CKD practitioner yet, that hasn't bashed her(?) for doing ITF TKD?


Man !! He he seems there's some gender confusion here!!!

I'm a lad, man!

Any advice on how to butch up my posts??? :D :D :D


Maybe it's time I dropped the "_Spice" ??

:D :D :D

[captainmoomoo]

My apologies Mr Spice ;-)

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Sheesh, what ever happened to tact and diplomacy??

Isn't a tact what you do when you turn into the wind on a boat? :D And I've got no idea what a diplomacy is, does it involve a university education? ;)


Now I have to say that I have never met a CKD student yet that hasn't bashed me for doing ITF TKD, without even seeing my class! Maybe I'm unlucky, maybe theres something wrong with the instruction, but surely respect still exists somewhere??

I think its partly a joke to be honest, same way many of us Brits mock Americans while still getting along with them. Besides, I've yet to meet a TKD instructor of any form who doesn't discount my Choi experience as being irrelevant, and criticise me for doing techniques 'wrong' (incidentally producing more power and speed than most of them, but that's not the point). Although being completely fair the TKD instructors near me are pretty pathetic, still teaching locking out on techniques in actual combat and forced partner-stretching beyond the pain barrier.

Actually its more that I've not met a TKD instructor who's mentioned that they are one, but if they don't mention I can't really judge.

[Kof_Andy]

The one that acknowledge themself as a instructor are probably not very good ones. The good one never say they teach or instructe in anyway, unless there being asked. Choi Kwang Do is a very knew art. Even the so call master out there only have few years of experience in Choi Kwang Do. This art started in 1987 if I remember right, thats only 16 years of training in this art. For most other styles with that amount of time in training is barely consider to be a master. That might be one of the reason why you dont see any exceptional martial artist in this particular style. Give it some times. hehe

[LilBunnyRabbit]

The one that acknowledge themself as a instructor are probably not very good ones. The good one never say they teach or instructe in anyway, unless there being asked. Choi Kwang Do is a very knew art. Even the so call master out there only have few years of experience in Choi Kwang Do. This art started in 1987 if I remember right, thats only 16 years of training in this art. For most other styles with that amount of time in training is barely consider to be a master. That might be one of the reason why you dont see any exceptional martial artist in this particular style. Give it some times. hehe

And when for example TKD or Karate, or any other martial art was new, was the founder treated with any less respect than the years of training that went into building his new art deserved? And those who went with him, were they any worse for following a new idea, and taking their knowledge and training with them?

[Kof_Andy]

That wasnt even what I'm saying. I have a lot of respect for the founder. All I'm saying is that Choi Kwang Do is a new art. The people that teach in that field obviously didnt have that much experience in it yet. Max Choi Kwang Do experience they can have is 16 year.

[Tosh]

Originally posted by ckdstudent
(incidentally producing more power and speed than most of them, but that's not the point).

Man, I swear, when I get back from here you are gettin gthe big "TROLL" picture. :D

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Man, I swear, when I get back from here you are gettin gthe big "TROLL" picture.

Read the rest of the post, then if you still think I'm a troll, feel free.

[Tosh]

Originally posted by ckdstudent
Read the rest of the post, then if you still think I'm a troll, feel free.

Regardless of the faults of instructors, surely in your own words "pathetic" instructors are going to get riled by your comments??

Why can't you just be happy they do it different, leave them to thier own choices and let them get on with it?

The point I was originally making was, shouldn't we be encouraging each other to "live and let live" instead of any sort of bashing??

C'mon evderybody, join hands...

"Kum by ya my lord.......... :D"

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by Tosh

"Kum by ya my lord.......... :D"

ROFLMAO :p

[amiller127]

Pil Sung Mr Khengar

I can understand your comments on the standard of some CKD students. I used to have the same opinions myself. I would look at a lot of CKD students and didn't have a high opinion of their techniques, especially in some classes.

But I changed my mind after a while. The whole concept of CKD is for people to develop at their own pace, to their own abilities. Not everyone has the ability, and some never will, to perform CKD techniques to the high technical standard of Grandmaster Choi. GMC as you know trains religiously every day for a few hours early in the morning. There are not many people who can match or afford to match that level of commitment.

You have students who train as a hobby and enjoy themselves in doing so. Do you think it matters to them if their kicks and punches don't quite resemble GMC's?

The whole concept for CKD is to improve your health, self defence skills and also to promote personal success. Training in CKD, just as training in other activities is good for your overall health. I doubt that you would suggest that CKD is not good for self defence. Its the "personal success" aspect that you seem to have had a problem with.

As you know we do fail students for performing poorly at gradings. As examiners what we should be looking at, from their first grading, is how students are improving themselves over the course of their training. If someone is doing poorly at one aspect in a grading and has not rectified it over the next few gradings then you should give them special training or fail them.

The problem comes when you try to fit everyone into matching a specific template of how CKD should be performed (i.e. Grandmaster Choi). By doing this you are are not being fair to the students who cannot and probably will never be able to perform any where near GMC's level.

The way i see it, if you have a new student come in, who has problems with the techniques, what needs to be done is help them improve themsleves over time. It takes a long time to get the body to be able to perform the techniques anywhere near a level where you can't see any major problems with a technique.
Also there are many students who will never attain the level that would satisfy you, would you reject them from ever grading and progressing?

We have two 60+ new students in Wales who could not perform the kicks higher than knee level and who struggled initially to keep up in class with the younger students. If we took your attitude they would be long gone. In our recent grading i had the pleasure of watching them test and the improvments they have done over the past 6 months to a year were amazing. Their techniques are nothing like those of the younger students, but seeing their improvments, both technically and in their health, it makes me proud of being and instructor and of my art.

Also in my old class which i recently passed on, i had a young student, who came in with an oldre brother, who could not perform the CKD techniques and was a nightmare to get to learn anything. I had to hold him back from testing for a month as he was the type of child who didn't get anything you told him. I could have told him to go away until he got a bit older, saying he wasn't able enough. Instead i chose to spend 10 mins with him every lesson, working with him to build arelationship with him and develop his techniques. The result was he passed his next test. While he was no where near as good as other white belts technically, what he had achieved over teh past few months of training made him deserve his promotion than any other white belt that tested that month. Because i spent that time i now have another student in my class that would not be there otherwise and also one i have a great affection for and was sad to leave when i passed the class on. (Incidentaly, you can ask morpheus how hard he can be to teach as he has had to teach this child recently)

Why should you punish the students who are taking the time and effort to learn the art and develop their techniques, by not letting them grade because they do not fit a specific template of CKD. If a person is developing and improving their techniques then why should we bar them from testing. Their working hard to improve themselves. By baring them, we are only ignoring their progress.

Throughout my years studying CKD i have not seen many people who can perform their CKD techniques like the Grandmaster himself. There are a handfull of CKD practitioners who i have seen and and have wanted to have their level of techniques. I've been very fortunate as of the 10 best people i have seen in CKD, in my opinion, 3 of them come from Wales and i have had the pleasure of training with and being taught by. I also have had students who were not 100% on technique, BUT gave their all to improve themselves. These people passes due to the shear effort they put into their training. Some of these people may not be able to kick or punch as technically perfect as GMC, but the basic biomechanics are there and you would not want to get hit by them.

I can understand your frustrations Mr Khengar. I used to look at some people's techniques and think to myself "Why the hell are they allowed to wear a black belt". But after a while i noticed that the ones who were terrible would put more effort into practicing their techniques to improve themselves than others who were far more technically profficient. Gaining your black belt is a journey on self improvement and not neccasserily a mark of the highest technical standard.

I have passed students for black belt, who while not excellent technically, more than made up for it by the sheer effort they put into getting there.

I would rather have black belts who havelow technical standards, but 100% effort in their practice, rather than someone who was a clone of GMC, but who didn't have the discipline to practice and work at their CKD.

To finish, I would like to say that it's a shame that you couldn't see this Mr Khengar. I always had respect for you as a CKD practitioner (and still do) and thought you were of a high standard. Its a shame that you couldn't work out these issues and stayed with the art. I wish you well in whatever you choose to do in your future.

Pil Sung

Dale Miller

[amiller127]

[i]

And I believe that this is what it all comes down to - BE THE BEST YOU CAN AT WHAT YOU DO.
[/B]

I think this sums it up. Why punish students who are being the best they can be?

Their best may not reflect what your opinion is the best, but their effort put into doing their best should not be ignored.

[saikyou]

Originally posted by amiller127
I think this sums it up. Why punish students who are being the best they can be?

Their best may not reflect what your opinion is the best, but their effort put into doing their best should not be ignored.

sometimes, effort alone is not sufficient.

[Terry Matthes]

A round of applause for Captainmoomoo. It's nice to see someone stand up for what the belive in.
I only have one question. Why do you seem so worried about joining an orginazation? Why not just stay independent and call your school a Mixed Martial Arts School with a base in CKD? I say practice whatever works and don't let other people tell you diffrent.

[YODA]

I made a descision many years ago that I would not let ANYONE tell me who I could train with or what I could train and teach.

This has casued a few shifts in direction over the years and I stand by every minute of it.

Martial artists are not sheep.

[amiller127]

Originally posted by saikyou
sometimes, effort alone is not sufficient.

I agree with you. What i was trying to get at is that you have to allow for the fact that some people will never get to the technical level that captain moo moo desires of CKD students.

[Kwajman]

Very nice for standing up for your convictions. I'm sure it cost a lot of money and time training as far as you did. So stand proud and keep up the good work. I'm not a black belt, just a high brown belt, but I can recognize quality when I see (or read) about it.

[captainmoomoo]

Dear All,

Sorry for the late post. I've been so busy with studies that I decided to stay away from the forum. The whole CKD/TKD subject is something that I feel very passionately about, and has the power of distracting me to the point of possible failure in my studies. They are now finished however, so... LET THE GAMES BEGIN!!!

Anyway, it seems Mr Miller is the first to solve the mystery of my identity - PIL SUNG (and thanks for the compliment)!

The issue of 'punishing' students for their inability to perform to basic minimum standards seems to be rearing its ugly head repeatedly in this forum. In fact, just days prior to my expulsion from CKD, other instructors were trying to explain the wrongs of what I was doing, as well as my opinions, using very similar arguments to those already presented here.

I believe however, that these arguments miss the point entirely. I do agree that every individual will not be able to perform up to 'spec'. In fact, no one can, as I feel perfection may be something one can strive for, but never completely achieve. I also agree that different people have different bodies, different abilities, and different disabilities, which in turn predetermines (to an extent) what they are able to achieve, and what they can never achieve.

Many CKD instructors were under the impression that I expected students to perform to the level of Grandmaster Choi. But this is simply not true, as it would make me a hypocrite if it was, because I know I certainly can't perform to his level! When I talk about poor standards within CKD, I am referring to black belts and instructors who have absolutely no idea of how they are supposed to kick or punch.

Granted, some people may be unable to kick above waist height, or even knee height. Granted, these people should not be punished for what their bodies do not allow them to do. However, by the time these individuals get to black belt, they really should at least be able to perform a side kick at knee height to a satisfactory technical level. I was always under the impression that the stages up to and including black belt were about building a student's foundation. But most of the time this foundation would be almost non-existent.

The problem of poor technique is not exclusive to those people who for some reason have a 'problem' with their bodies. It seems to extend to almost every single person who practices CKD. Whether an individual is crippled by old age, or blessed with youthful athleticism, almost all seem to perform extremely poorly, simply because the poor standard is the norm. This is the reason why I had to do what I did, that led to my expulsion from CKD.

It would hurt me so much, every time I sat down at the Examiners' table to mark students. I would look at row after row after row of students, each one eagerly awaiting their grading - the next step towards the 'coveted' black belt. But I knew that they were not getting what they had paid for. I believe CKD students are being done a HUGE injustice. I just couldn't be a party to it any longer.

I truly believe that CKD damages students. By claiming not to punish students who can't perform, it punishes all by preventing them from achieving their true potential.

Terry, I had originally considered remaining independent. However, I thought it would be better to join another organisation, due to benefits such as insurance, competitions etc. I also wanted to provide an environment for my students that would give them the best possible opportunities to develop into good martial artists. Official certification was also something that was important to my students. For me, it wasn't so much of a concern, as my technical ability is my 'certificate' . But I can also see that having your abilities certified can provide for a smoother transition into the future, when choosing to open up your own clubs etc., as it provides some proof that you are indeed at the rank you claim to be.

And I am very fortunate to have been accepted into a branch of WTF Taekwondo, that not only exhibits high standards from all its members, whether young or 'old', but one that is also very open. They do not tell me what I can/cannot teach/train. I have complete freedom to teach my class as I see fit, as long as certain minimum requirements are met.

I really am very happy, as I now feel that not only do my students have a better outlook for their martial arts 'career', but now, I too can grow once more and develop further towards becoming an excellent martial artist.

[morphus]

Captainmoomoo,

Your identity matters not here on MAP - i knew who you were; for me....It was up to you to broardcast your real handle.

I have a question - answer PM if you wish - up to you.

TKD & CKD have very different techniques, what sort of strikes are you now teaching as what CKD does is certainly not TKD snap punching??

In fact to protect yourself Answer by PM.

[Tosh]

Originally posted by morphus

TKD & CKD have very different techniques, what sort of strikes are you now teaching as what CKD does is certainly not TKD snap punching??

In fact to protect yourself Answer by PM.

Hheeheheheh, "protect" hehehheeh

Us TKD'ers aint that scary! :D

If you think TKD is limited to "snap" punching then you need to go refresh your knowledge by training at a good TKD club! :D

[captainmoomoo]

Hmmm, I'm not sure what you mean by protecting myself - would you say there is a need to?

CKD and WTF-TKD are similar and different. As far as the sparring system is concerned, I would say alot of what I have learned in CKD is compatible. For example, the dynamic and free stance etc. But that's just the foundation for sparring. The footwork is amazing - not the kicks themselves, but the stepping, switching, retreating etc - awesome stuff.

The biggest difference lies in the patterns, which are 'traditional', i.e. punching from the hip, long stances etc. Of course, there is very little transfer between the sparring and patterns in this style.

You'd have heard of this in CKD called 'negative transfer', where one aspect of training does not directly support another within an art.

This view initially makes sense, but all is not as clear cut as one may think. Although it is true that you'll never see people spar the way they do their forms, forms are still an extremely important part of training.

Anyone who has some experience of such 'traditional' forms will almost certainly testify to the excellent workout one can achieve through their practice. Because they are so stylised, such forms require the pracitioner to maintain certain positions, which in turn help to condition muscles that help to maintain posture, as well as those muscles that support certain joints.

For example, one of my students recently dislocated his knee during a class while doing a spinning kick (he tried to pivot on the flat of his foot, and instead ended up pivoting on his knee). During his physiotherapy, he asked his doctor if it would be safe for him to restart his TKD training, who in turn enquired about the types of movements TKD involved. My student showed the doctor the 'front stance' (ITF guys, you call this 'walking stance') who said that this would in fact actually speed up his recovery.

What do I teach in my class? Well, when I made the switch, I promised that I would retain those aspects of CKD which I felt were beneficial. So in addition to the TKD syllabus, I also teach the CKD forms and their associated techniques, as well as the CKD close-range syllabus, shield and focus-mitt sparring, as well as the CKD standard stretching routine.

BTW Morphus, have we met before? Let me know on this forum (or you can PM me too ;-)

[Tosh]

Originally posted by captainmoomoo
My student showed the doctor the 'front stance' (ITF guys, you call this 'walking stance') who said that this would in fact actually speed up his recovery.


Tis funny you mention that! The "loading" excercises I was given to rehab my torn ligaments were nearly are almost excately the same footwork as one of the beginners patterns! :D

[captainmoomoo]

And there you have it - 'Traditional' martial arts ARE good for your health!

[morphus]

This is all most interesting, thank you for enlightening me.

Captainmoomoo, No Sir we have not met.
I have been training CKD for 6 years, before that i had little experience of martial arts- bit of karate when i was a kid.

I've since studied Ju Jitsu for a couple of years which mixes well with my CKD. I'd just like to say i am not a perfectionist, i do not believe that looks/style are everything but, i do believe in the core techniques which if performed correctly are absolutely devastating & mixed with the right combinations of other arts ...well.

The only reason i said "protect" was 'cos CKD are quick to point the finger at people who 'borrow' from CKD.

Pil Sung sir

[LilBunnyRabbit]

If you think TKD is limited to "snap" punching then you need to go refresh your knowledge by training at a good TKD club!

I have the feeling that Moo's experience of Choi is similar to mine in TKD, there just don't seem to be any particularly good classes near me. And before anyone asks, I have visited all of those that I know of within a reasonable drive.

[captainmoomoo]

Originally posted by ckdstudent
I have the feeling that Moo's experience of Choi is similar to mine in TKD, there just don't seem to be any particularly good classes near me. And before anyone asks, I have visited all of those that I know of within a reasonable drive.

Like I mentioned before, I travelled extensively during my 9 years in Choi Kwang-Do.

I must say however, I never did get to see the Scottish guys and girls perform. I have heard that their demo team is awesome, and that's coming from people who, in my opinion, possess a high degree of technical competence - so I believe them.

Also, the Argentenians have a reputation that precedes them. Again, I did not have the pleasure of seeing them in action.

Still, these people only form a tiny minority of the whole.

[amiller127]

Mr Khengar

I also have travelled extensivley throughout the CKD world and I have trained with many of the instructors in the UK. I must say that of the many ckd instructors that i have met and seen training, there are not many that i feel are not of a technically profficient standard of CKD.
There are one or two older instructors, who cannot perform the art that well. There are also instructors who are not of a great standard who have no excuse of age for their lack of technique. But, unless you personaly know them and have trained with them i feel that it is innapropriate to judge them for their performance, without knowing of their progression in the past. If you trained with them for a long time and just know that the instructor is lazy in not keeping their skills up to scratch, then they deserve to be criticised. If however the instructor has worked hard and overcome many obstacles to get where they are then its not right to criticise them.

As it stands, generally i feel that the overall standard of CKD instructors is good to excellent. Here in Wales i personaly feel that we have a small number of instructors, but they are all generally of a very good standard technically in CKD. Morpheus, his sister, Ruth Campbell and our AI's are very good technically. Also, there is not one instructor in Wales who does not bust their gut trying to do their best in their gradings. I should know as i have examined every one of them in the past six months.

As for the Argentinians they are very good. Mr Murrey from Scotland is very powerfull and athletic in his CKD performance and his students emulate him. Mr Banfield, Mr Harper, Mr Wright are some of the best CKD practitioners in the world. Mr Sparrow from Hitchin is one of the most incredibly powerfull guys i have ever had to hold a shield for. The same could have been said for Mr Wake, who is sadly no longer with us. Mr Cassar is very good also. My CKD instructor who left the organisation a few years ago due to his personal life was also exceptionaly talented at CKD.

The one thing each of these guys has in common is that they have spent many years dedicated to training in CKD and improving themselves. The students who you are talking about in the UK are mainly from their schools. The students, who you think are so poor are in good hands with these guys. They will get the very best out of them. They are all some of the top CKD instructors in the world and they have the ability to produce the most talented of students. You should know that as you were one of their successes.

This view initially makes sense, but all is not as clear cut as one may think. Although it is true that you'll never see people spar the way they do their forms, forms are still an extremely important part of training.

Anyone who has some experience of such 'traditional' forms will almost certainly testify to the excellent workout one can achieve through their practice. Because they are so stylised, such forms require the pracitioner to maintain certain positions, which in turn help to condition muscles that help to maintain posture, as well as those muscles that support certain joints.

You can also get the same effect from slowing the CKD patterns down and making sure that you really work on the technique. As you should know, the tempo of the CKD patterns can be modified to suit your requirements. If you want to perform them slower then you get the same benefits you stated. Faster and they give you a good workout.

We never said that forms were not important. We have plenty of forms in CKD. If we thought they were not important then they would not be there and GMC would not be adding in forms for 4th Dan +. However, you completely miss the point with the negative transfer aspect. When performing forms you are developing the muscle memory to perform your techniques. If you kicks and punches in the forms are different to the kicks and punches you are doing sparing then you are not practicing efficiently and are not reinforcing what you are learning. Punch one way for form, one wau for sparring, kick one way for form, kcik differently for sparring. This does not make psychological sense. Does David Beckham kick differently when he is practicing than the way he does on match days?
Also, by the way you are describing thway you teach, you seem to ba making it a lot harder for your students to learn effectivly. If i read what you say correctly then your students (who were mainly taught CKD) are now doing CKD techniques and their equivelents for TKD. You say you do TKD patterns as well as CKD. For them to perform both correctly must be very confusing and psychologically difficult for them.

As for sparring. There are some areas of sparring which you can teach which could be beneficial to learn. There is though more negatives to positives in my opinion. Sparring is completly different to having to defend yourself on the street. If you condition yorself to fight a certain way and to fight to certain rules, psychologically you will do the same thing under an attack. If you are conditioned to make light contact then you will find it psychologicaly difficult to hit full power under attack. Again, to use David Beckham as an example, does he run up, make light contact with the ball and pull his leg back when practising, only to do the oposite when playing? Of course not. He practices each time the way he would in a game.
Antoher part of sparring that i have a problem with is that it does condition some people to stay and fight when they could escape by running away or making some form of retreat. Im not saying everyone who spars will have this occur, but, it will be more ingrained to stay and fight until you finish the fight if you spar. Look to run if possible i say.
(After me saying all this, im going to get flamed by those who practice sparring)

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by amiller127


Mr Murrey from Scotland is very powerfull and athletic in his CKD performance and his students emulate him.


No it's not me! :D

[Cain]

Damn!!!!!

I almost was about to ask!!!!!!!! :p

|Cain|

[captainmoomoo]

Hi All,

I just received a copy of the 'Taekwon-Do Pioneers' DVD from the ITF. It contains really old video footage (when the ITF was really young) of ITF masters and instructors, including Grandmaster Kwang Jo Choi!

Anyway, these guys are doing all their stuff... and it looks pretty awful. Certainly nothing compared to the high technical standards that the ITF generally exhibits today. So it got me thinking, maybe CKD is going through a similar phase, as it is quite young at the moment, just as TKD was back then (1970's).

Perhaps, as the years go by, the technical competence of CKD practitioners will improve. Maybe, maybe not. Guess we just have to hang around to see if/when it happens. I sincerely hope it does.

[morphus]

I would like to see that old stuff.
I think, judging by comments on this forum & other articles i've read, that TKD has developed over the years & the statements made by CKD originally, may have applied at that time, now maybe things are different.
So it's time to move on & concentrate on other, more positive issues within CKD.

[dancing dave]

What were forgeting is that pre 87 there was no such thing as CKD. Just a growing idea in a geniuses mind. Grand Master Choi was testing his idea under the TKD banner. The first to teach it were TKD converts, and yeah, we looked bad. Imaging half front stance half dynamic front stance, yuk, but we built a foundation for an art that was designed for change. We didn`t do it because it was better, we just liked it better. Thought it had potential and it did, but these first CI`s were free thinkers, who had ideas of their own, hence more splitting. Captain you obviously are a free thinker. Don`t get trapped under a banner, sell yourself, your ideas and your techniques, to the people who matter, your students. Word of mouth has always been the best form of advertising.
Who is best? I am. Who does the best art? I do. Is there anyone who may be better than me? Yes, the one that can make me better. And who am i? Everyman (sorry, or everywoman).

[dosandojo]

You go now Captain Moomoo!!!! TKD!!!!

[dosandojo]

However, at the same time, I believe it is VERY difficult to be good at what you do, to realise your true potential, IF you're doing Choi Kwang-Do. My reasoning for this, is that poor standards are taken to be the norm in CKD, and so it becomes difficult for students to rise above the pack. It is possible though...

And I believe that this is what it all comes down to - BE THE BEST YOU CAN AT WHAT YOU DO.

I hope I have managed to state my position in a clear manner. At the same time I wish to apologise to any CKD practitioners reading this if I have inadvertently offended any of you by my comments above. I look forward to reading all your comments.

Thanks and Pil Sung (Certain Victory)-
Captain Moomoo

GREAT POST!!!!

[Kwajman]

Dosandojo, that is a good post, thank you!

[dosandojo]

I NEVER tried to attack or hurt CKD! Everything I said was positive, EXCEPT for the cult-like part....Which is MY FREE OPINION.

[YODA]

I NEVER tried to attack or hurt CKD! Everything I said was positive, EXCEPT for the cult-like part....Which is MY FREE OPINION.

Err.... he didn't say you did. He said it was a good post :rolleyes:

[dosandojo]

Yoda, why do you always have to put your 2 cents in? You told me to drop it, so can you do the same and stay out of my business?

[YODA]

Yoda, why do you always have to put your 2 cents in? You told me to drop it, so can you do the same and stay out of my business?

I put my 2 cents in because that's my job here. I am Admin here.

I will stay out of your business when you do as I suggested and STOP.

Kwajman said - "Dosandojo, that is a good post, thank you!"

You replied with "I NEVER tried to attack or hurt CKD!..."

What part of my reply of "Err.... he didn't say you did. He said it was a good post" did you not understand?

One LAST time. Please stop this - move on - leave CKD to those that train in it. With 30 years in things other than CKD i'd have thought you'd have something more constructive to contribute to this site.

[dosandojo]

Peace Yoda...Peace....Now what part of my 30 years of training would you like to know about? I will try and put as much helpful input as I can here. I believe I can be a positive asset to this forum..

[Andy Murray]

Peace Yoda...Peace....Now what part of my 30 years of training would you like to know about? I will try and put as much helpful input as I can here. I believe I can be a positive asset to this forum..

Why not introduce yourself, in the Intros & Bios section of the forum?

[YODA]

Peace Yoda...Peace....Now what part of my 30 years of training would you like to know about? I will try and put as much helpful input as I can here. I believe I can be a positive asset to this forum..

I think so too.

I have no questions - just have a browse - lots to see and do here :D

[dosandojo]

I did. I posted a thread in the bio and intro section...

[Andy Murray]

I did. I posted a thread in the bio and intro section...

Cool.

Apologies, I must have missed it in the flurry of Choi stuff!

[dosandojo]

:) Sorry again about that...