Silat lineage [Archive] - Martial Arts Planet

Bobster

06-Mar-2006, 09:52 PM

What is lineage in Silat and how is it passed on and does it vary with school?

Without lineage your art would be dead or dying.Bit by bit things would be lost and diluted.

When people look back at history all they would be able to say is that Silat WAS once something special.

People love a connection to an era, or a traceable route in a timeline. It gives them a feeling of self-worth and belonging. Americans like to trace their roots to their ancestors in Scotland, England, Africa, etc. It gives them a sense of connection to a culture and civilization older than what they might have, and can also instill a sense of pride in hyour own history.

What it can NOT do is give you any physical relation to the history, culture or art that you don't already posess genetically. The linkage is purely psychological. Being a black American doesn't make you a lost member of the Zulu tribe. Being (myself) from Scottish grandparents doesn't make me a descendant of Robert the Bruce with legal claims to his kingdom.

The same is true in martial arts of ANY kind, in fact much more so than I would say anywhere else. I cannot go to a website, visit a school or speak to an instructor without getting somebody's kung fu resume dating back to the 12th century. I hear it over and over: "My teacher trained with Wang, who trained with Chong, who was the student of Fong, who slept with Chang's mother, whose neighbor cleaned the toilets of Soong. My lineage is from this heirarchy." This is, in my opinion, a false lineage. You didn't know these people. You didn't touch hands with them. You never heard what they had to say. All you are getting, no matter how truthful your teacher is trying to be, is secondhand information. The only "lineage" you can claim are those who you have trained directly under. Anything else is fantasizing. My students can claim to have trained with me, and the ones that go to Indonesia with me can claim Pak Bambang as well. However, they cannot claim all my teachers as a lineage, because they didn't train with them, only me. And what they get from me is my understanding of the knowledge I was given, complete with my own failures in training as well as skills and achievements. I can't duplicate Bambang word for word, move for move, skill for skill...No student can of ANY teacher! You take th eessence of the lessons and apply them to the best of your abilities, knowledge and understanding AT THAT TIME.

On the subject of the art being lost, dying, or things getting diluted...Do you suppose that isn't the case now? When one physical technique is transferred to another person, that person has to change it to adapt it to his/her body size & strength. A person who has learned a martial art will alter it as time goes by so that he/she can continue to practice it in later years. There are just as many changes, if not more, than there are causes to remain the same year after year. Also, who said change equals dilution? That's a metaphor, and not an accurate one at that. It's misleading because it implies that the addition of new knowledge and the deletion of obsolete knowledge is somehow to be frowned upon. There is nowhere else in life that we as human beings would accept such. In the computer world whomever presented such a concepyt would be ridiculed into the street. In this age we have access to more information about martial arts than ever before, and our knowledge about the world around us allows us to see the fallicies in our own training by observing the strengths in others. What took decades to correct due to isolation can now take seconds to a person with an open mind. This is in now way disrespectful to the art, or the HUMAN BEING who created it...If he had access to the knowledge you do today, do you really think he wouldn't see the need for correction? Do you suppose this oh-so-wise creator couldn't bring himself to change his style if he learned how to build a better mouse trap?

Things cannot be lost...The body only moves so many ways, and if it was found once, it will come around again. Anybody can discover this. Anybody can achieve this.

Behind every TECHNIQUE there is a CONCEPT.
Behind every FORM there is a CONTENT.
Behind every ART there is an ESSENCE.

That's the base of ALL martial arts, the motion conceptualized is experimented with until a technique for application is formed. A group of principles & techniques became a form. The presentation of this form from the creator's point of view became an art.

The dilution really occurs after the second generation of students produce students of their own, and the guidlines of the founder become dogma. Then the art falls into stagnation, and any hope of contemporary evolution is LOST.

Focusing on who did what in the art when the world was flat is to place importance on the irrelevant. Someone who lived & trained this way 500 years ago doesn't have any bearing on you today, outside of perhaps a shared principle or concept he discovered back then. You must learn to recognize what is important, and what is trivial. Trying to carry an ART or STYLE is nothing more than trying to carry a burden in your life. Understanding the essence of what the art is trying to say to you is what's important. Recognizing what the concept of your technique is will advance your skill in the art, not listing out the instructors of it up to it's creator. "Lineage" does nothing for you, outside of providing a kind of record of those who trained before. My students can all tell you this. They move well, train hard, and are skilled with the tools they have developed in the time they have spent with me. Most of them do not know who I have trained with, almost none of them even know my rank, outside of "Teacher in this school", and it doesn't interfere with their learning capacity in the least. The skill will prove true, that wall chart is just decoration.

Habit and tradition should not be above criticism, nor should the dead rule the living.

tellner

06-Mar-2006, 10:39 PM

You're being a little disingenuous here, Bobbe. Maybe it's a fit of modesty. I've met some of your students. They're proud as hell to be your students. One of the reasons they train hard is out of respect for their teacher and the knowledge that you work at passing on to them.

Bobster

06-Mar-2006, 11:25 PM

You're being a little disingenuous here, Bobbe. Maybe it's a fit of modesty.

As usual with you Todd, you keep posting to me as if I have a modicum of education. Think "Neanderthal" and start from there. I always have to Google a few words to figure out what you mean. I found "disingenuous " to mean "Not straightforward or candid; insincere". But I am, at least, I'm not being consciously insincere. If it comes across that way, then I apologize.

I would agree that my students may take a certian pride in the knowledge that they are training an art that has a colorful background, and the Pendekars are famous names in the Martial Arts world (Suwandas). Also, I admit to having a unique relationship with the family, and they do know that they are getting alot of eyewitness information, as opposed to "the teacher of my teacher was told by his teacher that this might work" kind of thing, which is certianly more security in the transmission of knowledge.

However, I stick to my original point: By shifting focus away from whatever lineage I may posess & onto the personal development of the individual student, they spend less time worrying about the trivial (in my opinion) issues of "Place in history". Also, I promote friendship & equality in my school more than the traditional teacher-student relationship, and they aren't as influenced by my beliefs as they would be in more traditional schools. But I prefer this, because they can make their own descisions about things. The ones that still cling to a idolistic attitude with me (I discourage it, but it happens sometimes) will see that lineage isn't as important to me as knowledge and skill, then they will usually be influenced by my example.

I try to instill a sense of self-worth and pride in their own abilities, not in the pictures of my teachers on the wall.

Steve Perry

06-Mar-2006, 11:47 PM

I would agree that my students may take a certian pride in the knowledge that they are training an art that has a colorful background, and the Pendekars are famous names in the Martial Arts world (Suwandas). Also, I admit to having a unique relationship with the family, and they do know that they are getting alot of eyewitness information, as opposed to "the teacher of my teacher was told by his teacher that this might work" kind of thing, which is certianly more security in the transmission of knowledge.

However, I stick to my original point: By shifting focus away from whatever lineage I may posess & onto the personal development of the individual student, they spend less time worrying about the trivial (in my opinion) issues of "Place in history". Also, I promote friendship & equality in my school more than the traditional teacher-student relationship, and they aren't as influenced by my beliefs as they would be in more traditional schools. But I prefer this, because they can make their own descisions about things. The ones that still cling to a idolistic attitude with me (I discourage it, but it happens sometimes) will see that lineage isn't as important to me as knowledge and skill, then they will usually be influenced by my example.

But this is what lineage is, isn't it? Knowing from whence you came? You pass long knowledge you gained to your students, and while where you learned it isn't as important to them as that you *did* learn it, a sense of history can and does add to things.

If it's true, it doesn't matter who said it, of course.

I try to instill a sense of self-worth and pride in their own abilities, not in the pictures of my teachers on the wall.

And I wouldn't argue with that. But if a teacher is claiming that his art comes from God's mouth to his ear, or that someone else art is not valid because his lineage is invalid, that is sometimes enough to rate a response, if not a debate, if for no other reason than to help folks separate the wheat from the chaff. Not everyone recognizes a tall tale when they hear it, and helping folks avoid being gulled is certainly -- in my mind -- being more a part of the solution than the problem.

There are teachers of the arts who make claims that are simply not true, and by so doing, they are selling something they don't have. Now and again, you just have to call 'em on it ...

Bobster

07-Mar-2006, 04:09 AM

But this is what lineage is, isn't it? Knowing from whence you came? You pass long knowledge you gained to your students, and while where you learned it isn't as important to them as that you *did* learn it, a sense of history can and does add to things.

You have a point Steve. But I am looking at the use of the term "lineage" here as "The next link in the chain" not "descended from this line". They my students) are merely the next upgrade in the system, the next team up to bat. And I stand by my belief that they don't know from whence they came, because they didn't come from there. I did though, and they can claim me along with anybody else they actually train with, but as well as being the vehicle for knowledge transmission, I'm also the knowledge filter. There are some lessons that don't penetrate for me, there are things I won't understand or be able to master due to whatever reason, and therefore won't be able to pass them on. Every teacher has this. There are some things I do better & can improve upon more than my teachers, every instructor has this as well. By the time it reaches my students, it's different than what the person who taught me did. Not terribly so, I don't believe change is dilution, but still: It's not the same as what I was taught. If I instill the idea that their (student's) evolution of skill and knowledge is more important than clinging for dear life to a stance, block or method of training that is severly outmoded just because "that's how they did it 500 years ago", then I think I have accomplished teaching the founder's art with the student's best interest at heart. Going back to the idea of "Essence" over "Art".

Lastly, I have an inherent dislike of mysticism in the martial arts. I hate it when instructors try to hypnootize their students, for whatever reason. you can attest to having seen something like this I'm sure, viewing your recent post in our private Silat forum about Plagarism. Well, from what I have seen & experienced, that sort of control starts with subtle tricks that slowly convert the student into a zombie, such as "Sensei is always right" "Call me Master" "Your obi has a sacred spirit in it, never wash it" and of course, "Our lineage goes back to the days of yore". Getting the student to buy into one of these will open the door for the others. Maybe it isn't always for the bad, I'll grant you that. But the examples of it being used for hypnotizing a student are by FAR more in abundance than not.

This disgusts me. My high school math teacher never took me aside & said; "You are learning the Euclidian lineage of mathematics. As long as you can add & subtract, REMEMBER TO HONOR EUCLID!!".

See what mean? I didin't even know who Euclid WAS until I was an adult. It didn't enhance or detract from my learning math. And there's lots of other examples I could give. Martial Arts teachers are in a limbo-like state in society. Not really "educators" per se, and not "guardians" either. Yet they are revered and respected as both, often by nothing more than the belt they wear. This puts them in a position of power that is difficult to overcome, because it's like a kind of inherited respect, and not often an earned one.

So I tell my students to just call me Bobbe, and don't make a big deal of the honorific because it doesn't get me a better deal on my mortgage. It only matters in the school, and since everybody already knows it's my school...Why bother?

I tell my students that what they are doing now is much more important than what I did 20 years ago, or what my teachers did 45 years ago. I tell them to create, not imitate.

Anyway, that's it, that's all I wanted to say. Hope this made some sense!

Bobster

07-Mar-2006, 08:46 AM

^ The above post was written with a few Bailey's Irish Cream milkshakes under the wing, so I may have been a bit over the top...Sorry if it rambles, you wouldn't believe how much sense it made at the time!!!!

Steve Perry

07-Mar-2006, 09:54 AM

[QUOTE=Bobster]You have a point Steve. But I am looking at the use of the term "lineage" here as "The next link in the chain" not "descended from this line". They my students) are merely the next upgrade in the system, the next team up to bat. And I stand by my belief that they don't know from whence they came, because they didn't come from there.

Uh, well, it's kinda like you came from your great-great-grandparents, even though you might never have met them. Their blood flows in you, and there is a connection, albeit somewhat remote.

True, it has little direct bearing on your day-to-day life now, but if not for them, you wouldn't be here ...

Actually, I think the most legitimate uses of lineage are probably twofold:

First, if a good teacher chooses a good student to take over, there is some quality-control. And if his other students, or potential students, of that art accept his choice, then he (or she) thus offers a continuity. Here is the man -- or woman -- I feel is best qualifed to carry on, and I'd ask that you give them the attention you would me.

If he's earned your respect by what he puts on the floor, that carries some weight.

Second, being able to point to a well-respected teacher, while it won't guarantee your abilities as a fighter or teacher, can demonstrate that your instructor thought well enough of you to hold you up as an example.

This is something of a safeguard. Any fool can open a storefront and claim to be a Pendekar of Pukulan Pentjak Buttkicks-a-lot. It might be a little harder to do so, if, when asked, they can't point to an instructor that has any real training in anything.

Oh, yeah, I studied for fifteen years with mumble-mumble, in the Old Country. Dance and jive fast enough, you can still fool a lot of folks even so, but sooner or later, somebody will start asking questions and poking around.

There are still problems: A big-name reputation could be inflated, and even a great fighter might not be able to teach what he knows to lesser-talented students. Some poorer teachers are threatened by their students, and they get rid of them if they see any sign of either being surpassed or -- in some cases -- asked questions they can't answer. And not just in silat. I've known MA teachers who were outright frauds. It sometimes takes longer to out them, and usually they are careful not to risk being tossed on their cans by a student, but now and then, that does happen.

I once started to take kung-fu classes from a guy who had a good patter and a wall covered with certificates. Second class I was in, he had somebody come at him to demo a technique. Got decked, and that was the last class I attended.

I don't think lineage or costumes or the ability to rattle off a hundred terms in a foreign language are the primary aims of a fighting art. Either you can fight, or you can't. Either you can teach, or you can't. If you can't do both, you don't have the whole package to offer to students. I don't think having a lineage that goes back to Og in the Eastern Caves, automatically gives you skill. But if you can point to a real fighter, one who is respected by other fighters, and have him claim you as a finished student, then that much lineage is useful as a filter.

As for the old-is-maybe-not-so-good-anymore debate, we still don't see eye-to-eye on that one. If it worked against a knife three hundred years ago, sharp knives and human flesh being pretty much the same these days, it can still work today, done properly. Not to say there can never be anything new under the sun, but I haven't seen much lately that can claim that it is. A punch is a punch. There are only so many efficient ways of doing them, and after thousands of years of people pounding on each other with intent, I'd guess nearly every one of those efficent ways has been found.

My opinion, which with a dime, will get you ten pennies -- if somebody wants to bother to make change ...

Bobster

07-Mar-2006, 10:14 AM

Buy you a beer when I come down for the Sonnen thing? :)

Narrue

07-Mar-2006, 01:42 PM

Select a number of very different martial arts and of each one of these select the best school you can possibly find. Go to each of those schools in turn, not as a participant but as an observer. Try to feel the atmosphere, character, spirit generated within that school, do not go there to criticise their art but just to feel and observe the atmosphere in the class. First thing you will notice is that every martial art has its own character, spirit, personality and this generates an atmosphere unique to that particular art. Visitors to those various schools will either like that atmosphere and become members of that school or they will dislike it and move on to find an art which more closely conforms to their ideals. Those who stay will over time be influenced and moulded by that atmosphere. Although students may vary in ability/ style within that school they will all be tainted with that arts character over time.
I have heard martial artists say such things as “ I tried very hard, I was so frustrated I never got it, but then one day it happened, I got it and after that everything was easy”. What was it that they eventually got? How is linage passed on in a class?
Tradition is what keeps this atmosphere alive and once your art lose its traditions it starts to deteriorate or transmute into something else. This is why tradition and history are important and should be preserved.

Steve Perry

07-Mar-2006, 06:00 PM

Buy you a beer when I come down for the Sonnen thing? :)

Well, sure. Best way to have these discussions is over a beer ...

Steve Perry

07-Mar-2006, 06:24 PM

Tradition is what keeps this atmosphere alive and once your art lose its traditions it starts to deteriorate or transmute into something else. This is why tradition and history are important and should be preserved.

Selamat, Narrue --

I don't think anybody is arguing that we should abolish all traditions, nor that once you have an art that works, you don't work hard to keep it a living thing with a sense of its place in time and space.

Why one studies an art varies. When I first walked into a training hall, I wanted to learn how to defend myself -- I wouldn't be surprised if that was the most common reason most people start training. Some arts are better than others when it comes to real fighting. Kyudo is beautiful, and I would guess that an expert could offer a better defense against a 12-gauge shotgun at fifty feet than kung-fu, karate, judo, or silat player using those art. But kyudo is not a hand-to-hand fighting system in the same way that the others are.

In an art that is focused more on development of the practitioner as a person than as a fighter, then the costumes and traditions can take on a stronger importance.

In an art where the goal is to walk away from a knife attack on the street, the history and clothing and traditions are less important.

Many arts have, over the years, become very narrow and specialized. They focus on wrestling or boxing or use of a particular weapon -- a knife, stick, sword -- and while they can be made to serve in the process of self-defense, many of them are not primarly designed to do that.

If you happen to have your shinai or a katana with you when a mugger comes at you, then kendo and iaido are excellent arts to know. If you are good enough to use your hands as you would a sword, it will help you even if you left the sword at home -- but it won't be as effective in doing that as other styles that start closer to the problem.

Hitting somebody with your rolled-up certificate of rank in an art that is designed to develop your spirit more than your body is going to be less effective than hitting them with a stick you've trained for years to use.

In our version of silat, we believe we have a large enough toolbox to deal with most of what we are likely to run into in the real world. Silat begins with the blade. Not to say that silat is a perfect art with an answer for everything -- that shotgun, for instance, or a master swordfighter with a live katana against bare hands, those are going to be problems, no question.

In a silat style where the teaching focuses on how to tie your sarong, and the ability to recite your lineage back to the founder, or the cultivation of a feeling of brotherhood, you can learn much of interest, and it certainly has value, no disagreement. But that's not the route I'd want to have taken if Thug and Thuggier step out of a dark doorway with mayhem in their minds.

Bobbe argues for efficacy above all. There is a place for that. Knowing about history and lineage and cultural traditions also has a place. For many of us, those come in a distant second to the ability to walk away from the fight with your teeth still in place and your body in one unbleeding piece.

Bobster

07-Mar-2006, 06:30 PM

every martial art has its own character, spirit, personality and this generates an atmosphere unique to that particular art. Visitors to those various schools will either like that atmosphere and become members of that school or they will dislike it and move on to find an art which more closely conforms to their ideals.

This is true, but I believe that the instructor is where that "personality" radiates from more than the art. Remember, the art is intangible, so the physical representative you actually SEE is the instructor. How he presents himself & his style will go a long way in your perception of the art, even if you haven't actually trained it yet.

I have heard martial artists say such things as “ I tried very hard, I was so frustrated I never got it, but then one day it happened, I got it and after that everything was easy”. What was it that they eventually got? How is linage passed on in a class?

Well, that's quite a leap. Remember, with dedication, constant effort and hard work ANYONE can achieve a level of success at ANYTHING they try. You are probably better at driving a car & negotiating traffic as a 35 year old then you were as a 19 year old. Lineage won't really help here as I have said before it stems from your own physical endeavors, not a wall chart of your martial arts genealogy. Unless you count that as one of the psychological motivators that you use to mentally stimulate you into constant effort, that's understandable.

Tradition is what keeps this atmosphere alive and once your art lose its traditions it starts to deteriorate or transmute into something else. This is why tradition and history are important and should be preserved.

Tradition is fine, as long as it isn't dogma. Attaching tradition to martial arts is a risky thing, because stagnation is just as deteriorating to a system as having no traditions can be. Again, you use the term "turn/transform/transmute into something else" as if it is a thing to be avoided. This is a mistake, it can make you disdain anything that comes along which could enhance your art or your own personal abilities, simply because it isn't "Traditional". Common sense in combat is often neglected or simply overlooked because "We don't do that in OUR style". This is similar to water saying "In MY system of river rapids, we only flow around the LEFT side of the rocks". Water just hits it and goes, it isn't concerned with where the previous water went!! But then again, you have to decide what you are training for. Some people need to belong to something with a history behind it, like a society of some kind. Others are looking for exercise & don't really care who invented it.

Kiai Carita

08-Mar-2006, 04:03 AM

I don't think lineage or costumes or the ability to rattle off a hundred terms in a foreign language are the primary aims of a fighting art. Either you can fight, or you can't. Either you can teach, or you can't. If you can't do both, you don't have the whole package to offer to students. I don't think having a lineage that goes back to Og in the Eastern Caves, automatically gives you skill. But if you can point to a real fighter, one who is respected by other fighters, and have him claim you as a finished student, then that much lineage is useful as a filter.

Warm Salaams and hormat to all pendekars,

I have to agree with the wise words of our silat elder Steve Perry.

Traditionally in Indonesia and the country that occupied this archipelago before it, linage has never been an important factor in pencak, silat, maempo, or silek schools. In fact traditionally there were never any silat schools, the first school in the ‘modern’ sense of the word would be the Setia Hati original school in East Java: Surabaya, then Madiun. Before that, rather than in schools, people wishing to learn pencak silat would learn from a master and if they were talented often they would go on and learn with other masters, with their blessing. After the establishment of Islam in Jawa, many pencak silat styles were closely associated with the madrassah and were part of religious training, and the master would also be an ustadz: a teacher of Islamic knowledge.

Maybe it can be said that there were two kinds of silat institutions, first, the aliran like Cimande, Cikalong, Cikaret, Bawean, Minang and so on. Aliran means a flow, a small river, and means more or less the same as the word ism as in expressionism, cubism and so on in painting. Sometimes these aliran recognize an ancient founder and all can claim to be his/her descendants, but always these claims are historically unsound. For instance, nowadays it is believed that Cimande is the oldest aliran in West Jawa, and writers have traced it to a certain Grandpa Khoir who might have lived in the 1700 or the 1800, but on the other hand, Babad Sunda, written a few centuries before the alleged lifetime of Grandpa Khoir, explicitly mentions the word penca as martial skills played by Pajajaran people in the tragic war with Majapahit, so how could Khoirs Cimande be the oldest? Most Sunda people claim through oral history that penca was around long before the war with Majapahit.

Apart from these ‘ism’ styles there also emerged styles which were more or less created by masters at the time, like Kwitang, Serak, Madi, Kari and so on. It might be interesting to note that most of these styles emerged in Batavia. Some of these styles then developed into ‘aliran’ as well while some remained true and knowledgeable of their linage like Mustika Kwitang. As an international port and a melting pot of cultures, the old city Batavia (now Jakarta) has the most styles of silat per square kilometer in Indonesia. All the Batavia silat styles, like its music, dance, language and theatre, are influenced by the culture brought by the many immigrants from China. Serak is one of these styles, but unlike Mustika Kwitang who can definitely trace their linage back to Mr. Kwee Tang, over the years Serak has developed more into an ‘aliran’ rather than a ‘holder of linage school’.

For this reason it is a waste of time for US pendekars to wrangle about the linage of Serak, and sad that someone has trademarked the name there. In Indonesia there is traditionally no sense of copyrights or intellectual property. If you invent a fighting method and your village follows you that is a reason to be proud, not to be upset. If some more skillful players then add on to what you found that is also seen as a blessing. The Islamic teaching that ilmu (knowledge) must be given back to Allah through amal (good deeds) means that traditionally silat teachers never sold their knowledge for pay, rather they would look after their students as parents. I have been lucky enough to be able to learn silat for more than free, when I visit my teacher I get free board and lodging as well.

Particularly within the aliran of Serak, it appears that the US pendekars have contributed something very worthwhile to the body of knowledge which is Serak-ism: the explanation of the concepts of Base, Angle, and Leverage. These concepts and the explanation of them are unique and meaningful contributions from the US pendekars to the development of Serak, and can be brought back to Indonesia, even to help explain intellectually, other silat styles as well. Just like anyone can be an expressionist painter, anyone also can claim to be a Cimande or Serak player, as long as the Serak-ism or Cimande-ism in their movement and philosophy. As an Indonesian I really appreciate these contributions as they obviousely come from a clear mind and a loving heart, unlike some manipulative posturing coming from other US silat players who appear to use and abuse Indonesian culture and history for personal (material) gains.

Warm salaams to all,

Kiai Carita.

Orang Jawa

17-Mar-2006, 04:37 PM

My worthless opinon,
In the western world, many people build their reputation on other people experiences or fames. Some students using their teacher's reputation to promote their own. The fact is this, regardless who you are studying from, regardless what silat system. It go back to your own responsibilty. If you are a good student, then it is your responsibility to have a good knowledg and understanding what your teacher taught you. Remember, a student is reflection of a teacher. Lineage is important if you want them to be important, its important to love your teacher, to highly respected your teacher's teacher as so on. But is not the prime indication or guarranty that you will better because of the linege of the system itself. It comes down to you. It is your responsibility to learn and it is your teacher responsibility to teach. If both of you doing what its suppose to be doing then to there is no doubt that you will in the right path.
And I could be wrong too,
Tristan O'Malley for today, can't wait for guiness ;)

Gajah Silat

17-Mar-2006, 05:39 PM

Any relation to Pat O'Malley :rolleyes:

Slainte' as they say :)

realitychecker

18-Mar-2006, 02:30 AM

Going back to the idea of "Essence" over "Art".

Projecting your 'soul' through "ART" is "Essence".

Honoring a 'lineage' is giving respect to one/those who have 'shown you the way' to express your understanding of their curriculum.

A writer would liken this to a bibleography, or citing the 'source'. Nothing more. 'Credit where credit is due'.

Expressing one's self through combat=Martial Art.

Bad Expression=Poor credit.

One good understanding outweighs 99 lineage curriculum jurus as far as "teaching"{communicating one's understanding of a particular subject}

Thank you, Bobbe and Steve!

Bobster

18-Mar-2006, 04:11 AM

Projecting your 'soul' through "ART" is "Essence"

In an artistic, asthetic sense, perhaps. But what I meant by that was behind every ART is a point, or a message. Look at Wing Chun, as an example: There are forms, drills, a famous exercise called Chi Sao, stances and footwork. But almost every one of these elements points toward one thing: Close range combat, primarily with the upper body. The rest of it is simply style, icing for the cake. Jiu Jitsu is another easily identifiable example, as is Tae Kwon Do. you don't have to dig into the far reaches of the soul to see what they are about, it's blatant and in your face. This is what I meant by "Essence" over "Art". The "Essence" will be the idea the creator of the style had for combat, and what knowledge he was able to convey about it to others. The "Art" will be what his level of success or failure will be in transmitting the style through the forms and exercises he invents to convey the message.

So, what is the MESSAGE that your art is trying to convey to you? I don't mean the spiritual realm either, there are enough people touting their opinions, as well as their version of God's opinion. No, what I am speaking of is the physical actions, when you take all the drills, stances, footwork, basics (especially basics!) of your art, what does it point to? What was the creator of it trying to convey, in his limited knowledge? THAT is ESSENCE. Every art has something like this, with the exception of perhaps a few that try to be "All-Inclusive". I personally don't think this is possible, but that's also my own worthless opinion.

Behind every TECHNIQUE is a CONCEPT.

This is where it starts, because NOBODY has a martial art plotted out from crime to cops right at the beginning. But they will have a couple or more techniques that they can execute with relative success time after time. They already have a fluid version of it in their heads, so at this point there's no need to create a standardized "Technique" to present. They will only do that if they try to teach the concept to others. So, to concept: What is the message that the individual techniques of your style are trying to convey? They will normally find a common ground between them to support the essence of the technique.

Behind every FORM (Kata, Kuen, etc.) there is CONTENT.

This is a very straightforward point, what is the form doing? Some relay multiple messages, others repeate the the same thing over and over to drive home a point. Don't get lost in the honorifics of the form, what it's name is, what it's lineage is (Some styles do this, why I have no idea), look for the purpose of the motion.

The TECHNIQUE will support the FORM
The FORM will support the ART
The ART will reflect the ESSENCE

This is the evolution of a system, or "Style". To bring lineage into it, while historically has some merit, does the third or so generation out no good at all, outside of a rhetorical exercise in "Who-What-Where". By all means, keep accurate records, develop a sense of pride in the knowledge that others went before you, and let it motivate you to continue when you feel like giving up. Yes, your instructors passed this information on to you, and yes, you should be grateful. But don't think your SOUL has anything to do with it, and don't think for a second that it's lineage that's going to save you when the weasels hit the rectum.

It will be your own hard work, effort & time spent training.

Expressing one's self through combat=Martial Art.

Fair enough, I'll go along with that.

Bad Expression=Poor credit

I don't quite get this one, are you saying that, if I have a bad expression of martial arts, I am a bad credit to my teacher? Or that I have a bad expression because I didn't give enough credit? Or something else entirely?

Let me close this with a question: Did you go to high school? Did you're teachers there pass knowledge on to you? Has that knowledge more than once gotten you a job, let you read a label, understand what was being said to you?

Do you still honor those teachers who taught you to read in the fourth grade? Their knowledge is no less important, and I'll bet my next paycheck you use it more than you use Martial Arts. Got any pictures of THEM on your wall? Do you keep a lineage chart of all your teachers from preschool throughout College?

If you do, fine. BUT IF YOU DON'T: Wouldn't you say that remembering them in your thoughts and prayers (or not) hasn't really made one bit of difference in your execution of their gift of knowledge to you?

Think about it.

realitychecker

18-Mar-2006, 11:07 AM

Quote:
Projecting your 'soul' through "ART" is "Essence"

In an artistic, asthetic sense, perhaps. But what I meant by that was behind every ART is a point, or a message. Look at Wing Chun, as an example: There are forms, drills, a famous exercise called Chi Sao, stances and footwork. But almost every one of these elements points toward one thing: Close range combat, primarily with the upper body. The rest of it is simply style, icing for the cake. Jiu Jitsu is another easily identifiable example, as is Tae Kwon Do. you don't have to dig into the far reaches of the soul to see what they are about, it's blatant and in your face. This is what I meant by "Essence" over "Art". The "Essence" will be the idea the creator of the style had for combat, and what knowledge he was able to convey about it to others. The "Art" will be what his level of success or failure will be in transmitting the style through the forms and exercises he invents to convey the message.

So, what is the MESSAGE that your art is trying to convey to you? I don't mean the spiritual realm either, there are enough people touting their opinions, as well as their version of God's opinion. No, what I am speaking of is the physical actions, when you take all the drills, stances, footwork, basics (especially basics!) of your art, what does it point to? What was the creator of it trying to convey, in his limited knowledge? THAT is ESSENCE. Every art has something like this, with the exception of perhaps a few that try to be "All-Inclusive". I personally don't think this is possible, but that's also my own worthless opinion.

Bobbe,

Sorry that I was a bit vague. I promise that I wasn't just typing nonsense, there is a good point behind my post. I really didn't mean anything "astheticly" as you wrote. I DO promise to reply to your reply to what I posted to show there IS logic behind it. I have to get to work now though....

Narrue

18-Mar-2006, 03:44 PM

I don’t think linage has anything to do with the paper on your wall as such things can be and are faked. Linage in my opinion is the art in its completeness being passed on. It does not just apply to silat or even martial arts, there are many lineages of various types and levels of importance.

If you take ingredients away from a cake recipe you would not expect it to retain the same flavour, would you?
Yes it is possible to improve on a recipe by slightly altering the ingredients but if this is done excessively by adding and taking away you will soon end up with a completely different product.
I would say that linage is a weight supported by 3 legs, tradition, history & culture. Take any of those legs out from under the weight and it will soon topple to the ground.

Bobster

18-Mar-2006, 10:31 PM

If you take ingredients away from a cake recipe you would not expect it to retain the same flavour, would you?

True, but don't view this as BAD, it's not. Better cakes were made because somebody liked lemon flavoring better than vanilla. The same can be said of martial arts.

Yes it is possible to improve on a recipe by slightly altering the ingredients but if this is done excessively by adding and taking away you will soon end up with a completely different product.

And, as long as what you end up with is effective, makes sense, and can be duplicated under combat environments, I would say that the completely different product is a GOOD RESULT, not a negative one. Also, go back to what I said about arts being created by humans. Teh guy who thought up whatever art you're studying may have been physically different than you, with varying differences in skill and abilities. What you take from his art & alter to fit yourself isn't discrediting HIM, it's enhancing YOU.

I would say that linage is a weight supported by 3 legs, tradition, history & culture. Take any of those legs out from under the weight and it will soon topple to the ground.

I have to disagree here. I train Pencak Silat, but I was raised in South Carolina, USA. I now live in Seattle, Washington. Although I appreciate Indonesian culture (GOD IN HEAVEN, DO I LOVE THEIR COFFEE AND CURRY!!) it's not necissary for me to train Silat. Umm..Let me say that, while not necissary, I have to contend that it's certianly more helpful if you DO study the culture. Kembangan alone is difficult to explain how to do unless I tell you why THEY did it!

Tradition & History, definately not. I have said it before & I'll say it again, habit and tradition should NOT be above critisicm, nor should the dead rule the living. I will not avoid or ignore an innovation to my art just because master Kwan didn't do it. One of my students said it best, as we were having this discussion a year ago: "All anyone has to say is that "Pendekar said it was true" and it's F**K common sense!!"

Back to my point, "Tradition' can be just as much a hinderance as any advantage you gain from it. It can blind you to the obvious truth that is right in front of your face, because tradition always must have an answer for everything. If such doesn't exist in your tradition, then it simply "doesn't exist". I have seen this kind of thing before.

Gajah Silat

19-Mar-2006, 01:53 AM

I'm erring on the Bobster side of things here.

To throw a different perspective into the fray, tradition and culture are not a static 'thing' anyway. It cannot stand still: 'culture' in itself is fluid and adaptive.

One of the reasons Silat is such a good MA is because of this.

Indonesian culture is very diverse and syncretic. With regard to Silat, it has absorbed the best from many other cultures and rejected the garbage!

That is culture, always moving. Taking what is advantageous and rejecting what is not.

You cannot say X culture is this or that because it does not stand still.

A friend of ours who is Canadian by birth but has lived in Indonesia for 26 years, makes some very bizzare, but nonetheless interesting comparisons between the British and the Indonesians in one of his books. And he does indeed have some points.

After all we are both islanders and great seafarers. We are both 'bastard' nations that resulted from continous invasion and colonisation and rejection. We both have an obsession with good manners.

Anyway, my wife is Indonesian but my mother-in-law prefers my beef rendang :D

And pak Bobster, you are so right about the coffee :D

Bobster

19-Mar-2006, 02:34 AM

tradition and culture are not a static 'thing' anyway. It cannot stand still: 'culture' in itself is fluid and adaptive.
Oooohh, that's a good one! Gotta write that down myself...!

Gajah, thank you for your kind words. May I humbly ask two favors from you, knowing I am a stranger?

1: What is the name and author of the book you mentioned? I would like to read it.

2: Do you think it would be possible for me to get your beef rendang recipe from you? :o

You can PM or email me if you like. I understand if you would rather not. Thanks!

Gajah Silat

19-Mar-2006, 12:01 PM

I tend to view culture as a dynamic process...I suppose.

Anyway no problem.

I suppose a bit of free publicity for Jeremy wouldn't do any harm.

http://jeremyallan.com/index.html

Another good book is 'Not a Hazardous Sport" by Nigel Barley. A very heartfelt and sometimes hilarious book about a Torajan rice barn :confused: I kid you not :)

As for the rendang I'll PM a recipe to you. Believe me, my in laws were in hysterics when I offered to cook beef rendang for them. Who ever heard anything as stupid as an Englishman cooking beef rendang :D

PS. Sorry Sarge, a bit of an off topic tangent here, but at least we're not falling out ;)

Orang Jawa

19-Mar-2006, 12:47 PM

The best book I've ever read about the history of Silat was...gee i forgot the name of the book and the Author is Ian Wilson, an Englishman. This book is his PhD project. Stevan Plinck send this text book to me. Darn can't remember the name. Steve or Todd, you may remember the name? I can assure you it was the very best silat book I have ever read, no hold bare.

As far as coffee, nothing can beat coffee from Sumatra...:)

>Back to my point, "Tradition' can be just as much a hinderance as any advantage you gain from it. It can blind you to the obvious truth that is right in front of your face, because tradition always must have an answer for everything. If such doesn't exist in your tradition, then it simply "doesn't exist". I have seen this kind of thing before.
**************
I respectfully disagree with Bobee :)
Tradition is a base, tradition is not the answer to anything but at the same time is not hiderance to you. We can grow, add, improvise thing but the objectives are still the same. I have a deep discusssion with my Uncle about some movements in silat that it seemed very strange in modren times. His answer is, time changes, how people walk, talk, and fights are diffrent. But yet the essences of silat, the foundation are still the same, we have to adapt the situation. Your job is to protect your body by using your hands and legs. Any movements that requires your hand farther than necessary is no longer viable. Any langkahs or stances that make you feel imobilized are no longer used as a base rather as transition. Any movements that will result in having a surgery in your knees are NOT requires. :) Silat is always been practiced in an ideal situation, large room to manuvers, open space and friendly atsmosphere. This is the place to learn, however, in NOT ideal situations, you CAN NOT assumed that all you have been practice will work to your advantage, you have to adapt, improvise, and overcome.
You can't not doing low kuda-kuda in crowded nightclub, rolling around can be hazardous to your health. ;) In early 70's I was a bouncer in bikers night club. I have seen many people proclaimed that hey knew karate got knock out before they can say: Mommy!"
So going back to tradition, you have to learn to adapt, improvise and overcome. Not necessarily hinderance.
And I could be wrong too....darn I still can't remember the name of the text book...is in my tounge but can't say it...and this is my fourth cup of Sumatra coffee :)
Yeah, got to go...you know where :)
Tristan

Bobster

20-Mar-2006, 10:47 AM

Tradition is a base, tradition is not the answer to anything but at the same time is not hindrance to you.

Well, I don’t want to sound too much like IBA here, but what do you mean by “tradition” and how is it being a base? What is “Base” to you? To me, in the physical sense, I think of “base” as the foundation upon which I build my style of movement (Silat, Kali, What have you). “Tradition” to me means the repetition of motion, the adherence to a set of values, or the remembrance of a chain of archaic events. I don’t think that would be a very stable “base” in the face of modern innovation and improvements in martial arts. I know what hard work is, that’s part of my base. I know what effort is, that’s how I achieve my base. But “tradition” to me means clinging to something for no other reason than “that’s how we’ve always done it”. And for me, that simply isn’t even near enough.

I am not at all arguing that all tradition is bad. I have a tradition of bathing every night. Because of this, I tend to smell better than people who do otherwise. But tradition without justification is nothing more than parroting the ideals of someone else, usually a person you have never met. Many martial arts, MANY martial arts hold to traditions that are not only detrimental to a student’s growth and self-development, they retard any real knowledge from coming to fruition in the student’s training, as well as encourage the instructor to succumb to the “call me God” syndrome. Pak Tristan, I understand you are a man of Karate as well as Silat, correct? Have you never walked into a Dojo & been subjected & expected to all manner of groveling to the supposed “MASTER” simply because “tradition” demanded it? Have you never seen a place where a training method was clearly in the dark ages, yet “tradition” halted anyone from saying so? I have. I have witnessed people humiliated into submission or leaving the school in disgrace because they had broken a tradition. I have seen human beings transformed into mindless zombies echoing their instructor at every chance, because they were part of a tradition.

We can grow, add, improvise thing but the objectives are still the same.

Oh, I absolutely agree with you, but tradition doesn’t. Tradition demands that you hold to the old ways, and disregard anything foreign to the club. Tradition expects loyalty from you, unwavering, and prompts denial in the face of truth. You can certainly “grow” in a tradition, but you cannot “add” or “Improvise” a thing, because that would be BREAKING with tradition. ‘Ya know what we call people like that? Radicals.

…Or heretics. Often the same thing.

Allow me to quote here from Oscar Ratti & Adele Westbrook’s excellent “Secrets of the Samurai”:

“A pupil was taught to walk seven feet behind the Sensei, lest he tread on the master’s shadow. The teacher showed the way & the pupil had only to follow it. Hence, the pupil was not allowed to depart a step from the teacher’s instructions: he was permitted to reproduce but forbidden to improve. It is not surprising, therefore, that the teacher should have become more sparing of his teaching as the pupil advanced, or that he should have tried to sanctify his art by surrounding it with all manner of mythical traditions. If the pupil happened to be of a free and ungovernable mind, and attempted to add his own devices to what knowledge was imparted to him, he was certain to provoke his instructor’s wrath”

-Secrets of the samurai, pg. 176

Or how about almost ANY page from the Budoshoshinshu? There is much good wisdom in this particular book, and much foolishness as well. But it all pertains to martial TRADITION. And there are hundreds of martial arts books & papers I could quote with the same restrictive, narrow tunnel-vision approach that cuts off the true flow of knowledge to an ebb, and then a trickle, until the pupil could just as easily learn from a book for all the help he’s getting at the dojo. This style of “tradition” is cancerous in the martial arts world, and spreads as easily as a common cold.

I said earlier that not all traditions are bad. There are things that are important not to lose sight of, and there are some habits that are only destructive in the advanced stages of training. There are a lot of drills & techniques my beginner students do that I will work out of them by the time they reach advanced. Just this morning my class did a punching drill that I myself hadn’t done in DECADES. I had to dredge it up because they weren’t understanding the method of stepping & punching I was teaching them, and I had to fall back on the traditional methods. But where I take exception to the rule is using tradition as the FIRST line of reasoning, as opposed to common sense & logical examination. And, just so we are all on the same sheet of music, I too was a staunch traditionalist once. I believed body mind and soul in the path of the warrior, and to be honest, I didn’t have a single instance that drove me into this non-conformist skin that I live in. It was over a period of time that I began to question the validity of certain techniques, and the teaching methods of certain instructors that that first led me to see the stark reality of blindly following tradition.

I have a deep discussion with my Uncle about some movements in silat that it seemed very strange in modern times. His answer is, time changes, how people walk, talk, and fights are different. But yet the essences of silat, the foundation are still the same, we have to adapt the situation.

My point all along! The dynamic principle is change, we are LIVING CREATURES, not dead things. We have a capacity for evolution and improvement, although we seldom exercise it. Perhaps what you are thinking of as “tradition” is something vastly different than what I am thinking of, because I have never heard of someone using it in your context.

Your job is to protect your body by using your hands and legs. Any movements that requires your hand farther than necessary is no longer viable. Any langkahs or stances that make you feel immobilized are no longer used as a base rather as transition.

I think I agree with you here, but I am having difficulty understanding exactly what you mean.

Any movements that will result in having a surgery in your knees are NOT requires.

Okay, I got that! It’s clear!!

So going back to tradition, you have to learn to adapt, improvise and overcome. Not necessarily hindrance.

This sentence conflicts, at least to me. The hindrance comes from allowing your tradition to retard your growth. Tradition usually is the forerunner of this malady, although ego can cause it as well. The ability to maintain the negotiation of fluidity (improvisation, adaptation) comes from the ability to step outside of tradition, pierce the veil & achieve the truth. Tradition should be just one ingredient, it should never be the whole pie. If someone who died 300 years ago is dictating what you do today, YOUR MIND IS NOT YOUR OWN. You must be able to recognize between true value & true worthlessness, between true loss & true gain in your training. Tradition whispers in your ear when you try to do this, it tells you that you are part of a long line of warriors dating back to the feudal period of Japan. You should be proud of that. To step away from it is to denigrate all that those have gone before you have done.

This is how the wool is pulled over so many people’s eyes. It is astonishing to me what an otherwise rational human being will accept as truth in a martial arts school, something he would have scoffed at had it come from any other source other than the one with “tradition” written on it.

This kind of information is going to be over many of the reader’s heads, I know that. It takes a lot of growth in your training to arrive here, and not many people even get on the train, or by the time they do it’s far too late to change their minds, even if they see the truth of it a mile away. I have been witness to this as well. But I do hope that something I wrote here STICKS. I hope somebody reading this will keep the seed of these words in the back of your head, and that it encourages you to look deeper into what you are accepting as “truth” on nothing more than faith and the words of tradition.

Steve Perry

20-Mar-2006, 05:28 PM

Orang Jawa

20-Mar-2006, 10:10 PM

Thank you brother Steve,

To Narrue: Thank you for sharing...:)
In my fifty years of training silat, I have tried to faithfully preserve the essence of what I learned from my teacher. Yet the way I express that essence in my techniques has changed as my understanding of Pak Lek message has deepened.
With that, I'm agree to disagree with you and lets move on? :)
Tristan

Orang Jawa

20-Mar-2006, 10:12 PM

OPPS! I meant to Mr. Edmonds...:)

RAMANA1

21-Mar-2006, 01:58 AM

bobbe-great post on lineage,very insightful.

Bobster

21-Mar-2006, 02:05 AM

Thanks! :D

Fireshadow

03-Apr-2006, 02:43 AM

In our art, the lineage keeps the body of knowledge intact. In my understanding, the lineage is passed on to the person who has the best teaching skill combined with the deepest understanding of the complete training. This person must also understand (and live) the psychology and philosophy that goes hand in hand with the martial science. The western world wants it now; wants a silat pill. So, many of the silat players won't complete the training and do not gain the depth that is necessary. Orang Jawa is correct when he states, " In the western world many people build their reputation on other peoples experiences or fames."
"First you must be able to whistle your instructors tune, then you can learn
learn to whistle your own tune." PDT
The problem is, many people leave their instuctors before they learn how to whistle. They go off doing "Row,row, row your boat" and end up losing that tune, too. They can't whistle their own tune, have no concept of how to make "improvements" to an art, and their "art" deteriorates from there. Pretty soon people have all kinds of wrong ideas about what this art is and isn't. They spread these lies and incomplete training on to others. You end up with a little bag of tricks, which may or may not be effective, and not the complete training.
If you have the real thing, lineage is very important.
Bart

Steve Perry

03-Apr-2006, 10:25 AM

In our art, the lineage keeps the body of knowledge intact. In my understanding, the lineage is passed on to the person who has the best teaching skill combined with the deepest understanding of the complete training. This person must also understand (and live) the psychology and philosophy that goes hand in hand with the martial science.

Bart --

In a perfect world, that would be true. The person best skilled as a teacher and who understood and could use the art the best would be named lineage holder. Alas, that doesn't always happen.

There are various reasons, some can be personal, some political, some considerations can involve whether the person best qualified will accept the responsibility.

There are, for instance, a couple of well-known silat teachers who, at different times, have promised the lineage of their art to several different people, and probably none of those told they'd get it will wind up with it -- not officially, anyhow.

If you have the real thing, lineage is very important.
Bart

I take your meaning, but I would disagree with this, just a little: If you have the real thing, then you don't need a certificate or a title or anything else. The real thing is enough in itself.

Fireshadow

03-Apr-2006, 02:08 PM

Narrue

03-Apr-2006, 02:29 PM

I guess we all have a slightly different concept of what lineage is. The piece of paper hanging on the wall, the family tree diagram with the current holders photo at the bottom, an insignia or badge of office worn by the holder, an ancient scroll ,book or device passed on…..All of that is not important. The lineage holder should be a container, someone who has the entire teachings and more locked in their hart.
We could describe it as someone who has talent or genius in the given area. Thing is how does genius/talent arise, who awards it? Then how is lineage given and by who? Is genius/talent given or recognised?
Look at the founder of any Martial art and you will find that they all have things in common:
Talent, genius, originality of thought, in-depth understanding, observant. Are such people needed in martial arts, what happens to an art which has no such people?

Fireshadow

03-Apr-2006, 02:44 PM

Mr. Perry,
Sorry, I didn't include this in my previous post. You state that you "take my meaning", but I don't believe you do at all. The lineage is about preserving the real thing. The lineage keeps it proper. The lineage keeps people who just have part of the picture from messing up a good thing. Unfortunately, that is difficult in our western world. People take a little and then go out and do their own thing. Sometimes it is ego and sometimes it is to make a buck. The curriculum integrity is lost. The western world rationalizes this by saying "the art needs to evolve" or "the man is a genious and needed to leave his instuctor so he could accelerate his training and pursue his vision."
I do agree that you don't need a certificate or title. It is easy enough to see living proof. I'm sure we would disagree about what the "real thing" is. I am pleased that you are happy in your training and I'm certain that you are getting a good thing. I am truly happy for you. I just wish you and others would call the art you train in by a different name. "A rose, by any other name, would smell just as sweet." If it don't smell like a rose, it probably isn't a rose. Sure it may be a flower, and that is a good thing, but please don't call it a rose. Again, I am happy that you are happy with your training and I do wish you the best.
Bart

Kiai Carita

03-Apr-2006, 03:00 PM

Mr. Perry,... I am truly happy for you. I just wish you and others would call the art you train in by a different name. "A rose, by any other name, would smell just as sweet." If it don't smell like a rose, it probably isn't a rose. Sure it may be a flower, and that is a good thing, but please don't call it a rose. Again, I am happy that you are happy with your training and I do wish you the best.
Bart

Salam silat, everyone,

I hope that I am not mistaken in understanding that Fireshadow would rather have Mr. Perry calling his silat by a name other than Serak. This is very funny.

Up to now there has been no confirmation that the silat taught by the de Thouars family in the USA is Serak at all! I mean Serak as it is understood in Indonesia as an aliran from Betawi. From the myths built around the art in the USA it seems that it is believed that Serak is a Badui art, and this is not true according to Indonesian elders. Inconsistencies like this make me wonder: maybe what the de Thouars brought to the USA was not even Serak at all! The fact that someone has actually had the brash arrogance to register the name as a trademark in the USA further proves that the person who did that doesn't have respect or understanding for the cultures surrounding silat in the Betawi area.

Being an aliran as I have often stated means more or less the same as the ism in expressionism, cubism and so on. So there can be many different interpretations and manifestations of Serak, all of which can't trace any lineage back to Pak Serak because in Indonesia matters like this were never so formally important, especially in aliran systems. In perguruan systems, of course, the lineage is very important.

Warm Salaams to all,

Kiai Carita.

realitychecker

03-Apr-2006, 03:26 PM

Steve Perry

03-Apr-2006, 07:30 PM

Mr. Perry,
I would say that what you are describing about the lineage being promised to someone,has probably happened within the organization I am involved with. Possibly, this occured twice. In those cases, I believe both practitioners who where in line to receive the lineage revealed their true character and someone else was chosen that could uphold the tenets of the art and who would continue with the training. Due to those learning experiences our "group" dropped off the face of the earth and just trained the people who were willing to seek it out and put in the time. Bukti Negara is just now trying to re-establish a public image. Because of our "disappearance" there are many misconceptions about what has occured with the PDT camp.
Bart

With all due respect, sir, two things: First, I didn't mention any names, I referred to "well-known" silat practitioners. In both the cases with which I am familiar, who revealed their true character -- student or teacher -- is debatable. As I understand the concepts of adat and hormat, that sword cuts both ways. Sometimes students choose to leave an organization, for good reason or bad; sometimes, teachers throw students out, also for good reason, or bad. Unless you are intimately acquainted with the details of each case, making broad comments may lack a certain ... accuracy.

My study of Bukti ended some years ago, for what I considered an excellent reason, and I don't claim any great knowledge of what has happened to that art since. I also don't believe I have a lot of misconceptions about it.

Orang Jawa

03-Apr-2006, 07:56 PM

Steve Perry

03-Apr-2006, 08:02 PM

I do agree that you don't need a certificate or title. It is easy enough to see living proof. I'm sure we would disagree about what the "real thing" is. I am pleased that you are happy in your training and I'm certain that you are getting a good thing. I am truly happy for you. I just wish you and others would call the art you train in by a different name. "A rose, by any other name, would smell just as sweet." If it don't smell like a rose, it probably isn't a rose. Sure it may be a flower, and that is a good thing, but please don't call it a rose. Again, I am happy that you are happy with your training and I do wish you the best.
Bart

Personally, I would be perfectly happy to call what we do Plinck-style Silat and let it go at that. There are times when having a connection to the terms "Sera," or "Serak (tm)" seems to me to bring way more baggage than it is worth. I have, more than once, suggested to my teacher that he get as far away from the name Sera(k) as possible, but he's easier-going than I. He still says what he does is Paul-style Serak. (I don't claim any connection to Bukti Negara all all these days; we have a couple of former gurus in that who train with us, and they don't claim it, either.)

But if you mean to imply in any way, shape, or form that my teacher has no depth of knowledge of what the PDT organization calls Sera(k), whatever it is, then I submit you don't have clue one what you are talking about. Given that Guru Plinck was a senior student of the Pendekar before there was an art called Bukti Negara, and that he helped develop that sub-system, and was listed as a senior guru in it before you came to the art, there's no question in my mind who knows what.

Whatever has happened to Bukti since my teacher stopped training us in it, I don't know, and frankly, could not care less.

Guru Plinck was as loyal and respectful a student of the Pendekar as the man ever had. He was treated shabbily for his loyalty. Period.

Ask the members of the Bukti board what their opinion of Guru Plinck's capabilities are as a Silat Sera player. See if you can find one who will offer that he is less than adept -- to his face. I expect I could sell tickets to see that.

Who a lineage holder passes that lineage to is, of course, his (or her) business. But if while you may believe that such a transfer always goes to the person best qualified to receive it, I know better.

And I wish you all the best, too.

Orang Jawa

03-Apr-2006, 08:38 PM

Steve Perry said: Personally, I would be perfectly happy to call what we do Plinck-style Silat and let it go at that.
********************
As a wannabe silat student, I'm very happy and content to call my system Silat Majalah. Stevan and his students are always welcome to joint us.....:) NO rules, no fees, no ranks, just fun of learning from the old magazine
Tristan

Steve Perry

03-Apr-2006, 09:19 PM

Salam silat, everyone,

Up to now there has been no confirmation that the silat taught by the de Thouars family in the USA is Serak at all! I mean Serak as it is understood in Indonesia as an aliran from Betawi. From the myths built around the art in the USA it seems that it is believed that Serak is a Badui art, and this is not true according to Indonesian elders. Inconsistencies like this make me wonder: maybe what the de Thouars brought to the USA was not even Serak at all! The fact that someone has actually had the brash arrogance to register the name as a trademark in the USA further proves that the person who did that doesn't have respect or understanding for the cultures surrounding silat in the Betawi area. .

It is true, our art's history is fraught with inconsistancies. What we know for sure is that the de Vries and de Thouars families who migrated from Java to Holland and the U.S. after WWII brought with them a fighting art. This was supposedly taught to various members of the family by one Mas Djut (or Djoet), beginning with Johann (Jan) de Vries, sometime about the turn of the 19th to 20th centuries. Mas Djut was supposedly a student of Bapak Sera, and what the family learned eventually came to be called Sera in honor of the founder.

What I have cobbled-together of the history is posted on Guru Plinck's website. I make no claims for accuracy, save that what I wrote seems to make as much sense as anything else I have heard. I don't believe that Sera is a Badui art, never have, and past a certain point, there is no written evidence for any of the history, so it is all conjecture.

I was given to understand that Pendekar Paul added the silent "k" after arrival in the U.S.

Whatever the genesis of the name, we in the Pacific Northwest believe the art is related to Tjimanda (Cimande), either as an offshoot or as an answer to that older and better-established system. Maybe both. (According to Dr. Ian Wilson's doctoral thesis on Pencak Silat in West Java, Sera existed as a separate art when Tjimande expand outward and came across it. It doesn't really matter.) We see similarity between what we do and what certain Tjimande players do, and since both styles come from a relatively small geographical area, it makes sense that they would at the very least have bumped into each other, figuratively and literally.

Whatever it is called, and wherever it came from, my teacher was one of Paul de Thouars most senior and longest-trained students, nobody denies this. He worked one-on-one with Paul for years, and in classes with other seniors after that.

Until the two men stopped talking to each other, the Pendekar's public comments, letters, and literature acknowledged Stevan as a senior Serak student and the highest level Bukti Negara teacher. Afterward ... ? Well, it's a common story -- once teachers and students go their separate ways, one or the other often disowns the other. Stevan has not done that to Pendekar Paul, but it seems that the Pendekar's memory is such that he has forgotten all the previous acknowledgments ...

Here is the thing, of course: Knowledge, unlike a certification, cannot be retracted.

Having never trained with Pendekar Paul, I cannot say how much of what Stevan teaches us has been altered from what he has learned. From what I understand, Stevan's method of teaching is an improvement, and I believe he has codified and made better what he learned, from what others who have trained with Paul have said.

Steve Perry

03-Apr-2006, 09:53 PM

With all do respect to everyone.....
I'm rather confused about this for along time. De Thouar's family has introduced three system that I know of. Bukti Negara (Paul), Serak (Victor)and Kuntou (Willem). Is these three systems was handed down by Maurice?
What is the Bukti Negara origin?
Victor's Serak origin?
Willem's Kuntau origin?
Again I'm not questioning their silat or knowledge in silat, I just wondering, since we are talking about lineage again. And It seemed Mr. Bart kind of offended that my friend did not use Bukti Negara as his primary teaching, eventhough, If I'm not mistaken most of his silat coming from Bukti Negara.
Is that correct?
Tristan

Oh, Brother Tristan, you do like to stir things up, don't you ... ?

The answers to your questions depend on whom you ask. From where I sit, I'll offer my hit:

Silat Sera(k) is the primary family art. Bukti Negara is Paul de Thouars personal art, created for several reasons, one of which was as a filter.

Before Bukti, Sera(k) in the U.S. was a closed-door art, Paul tended to limit his teaching to students of Indonesian (or Dutch-Indondesian) descent. (Stevan is Dutch-Indo, born in Holland, but raised in the U.S.)

Before being allowed to study Sera(k), an American student had to demonstrate a willingness to master Bukti, which is (in my opinion) a sketchier version of Sera(k). It works fine, and can certainly stand alone, but Bukti is to Sera as a Reader's Digest Condensed Book is to the full-length novel. The Pendekar is reported to have said it was designed for "old people, cripples, and Americans." The stances were higher, there was a forward lean that has since been played down, and there were fewer djurus and sambuts. Weapon work was also limited.

For many years, Victor said that Paul was his primary teacher of Serak -- he had his certification from his older brother posted on his website -- he now says Paul was his second teacher and didn't add much to what he already knew.

Victor's personal art under the Serak umbrella is Tongkat, and used much like Bukti was, to check on a student's dedication.

Willem has claimed and of late, disclaimed any training in Sera(k). Some of his senior students say he knows the family art, others say not. His lineage of kuntao comes from various places, including his wife's father.

Stevan taught Bukti Negara for years as directed by his teacher Paul, using it to screen students who wanted to learn Serak. He stopped teaching Bukti eight or nine years ago, as I recall, after an event in which his loyalty and ability were questioned by the Bukti Negara board of directors.

Fireshadow

04-Apr-2006, 02:29 AM

Greetings all,
I will attempt to respond to stuff as it was asked or occured.
Kiai Carita,
I only know a couple of things, the verbal history of Sera(k), which is at least pretty close to what Mr. Perry has stated up to the time of PDT. I also recognize the "living history", as I have had the opportunity of seeing many of the senior students or instructors move from the various camps (either live or on video). I also recognize that this is what my teacher (PDT) calls the art that he has received, as a direct lineage holder. The art was not to be taught to the general public. Any name will work in a pinch, but people would seem to be using the name of the art and the name of PDT to make money, against what they have vowed to do.
Reality Checker,
Excellent questions. I wouldn't care what else they call it. As to my qualifications, I am an also a student of PDT in the traditional system. I've been around for a long time and I have seen the "living history". I see what is out "there" and I know what and who we have in our camp. The difference is apparent to me. Mr. Perry's teacher is a very skillful fighter. Much happens behind closed doors in a "closed-door" system. I am not allowed to speak of my training in the traditional and I will not. I will from time to time plague and question what people say on this forum about the traditional system because I know better and there is more to the story... For the most part the people in our camp want to be left alone and train, but I like people to know that what they are hearing may not be the whole story. For the most part I will stick with BN.
Mr. Perry,
I don't think I mentioned any names either. You stated, " Unless you are intimitely acquainted with the details of each case, making broad comments may lack a certain .... accuracy." I couldn't agree with you more. As far as you having misconceptions about BN, I'm not so sure. BN went "underground" (if you want to call it that) in the beginning of the training phases. It was called a sub-system because not enough knowledge nor enough knowledgeable practioners were within the art to call it a system of its own. Of course, few claim BN as there art because there is no money to be made, due to many misconceptions. I don't imply that your instructor didn't have depth of knowledge in BN, I will say that his depth of knowledge only extends to the depth that was available at the time of his departure. Bukti Negara isn't intended as a filter. You obviously have many misconceptions about BN as you don't understand the purpose of the forward posture, among many other comments including weapon work, and the relevance of number of jurus and sambuts. Of course, PDT acknowledged Steven as a senior student of the traditional, I don't doubt that. I believe Steven was one of the first students. As far as the members of the BN board go, I do know them. It is not my place to repeat. From what I know and have seen, PDT has only asked for truth, keeping your vows, and hard training (that is all he has ever asked of me.) Those who left (or were banished) didn't follow through on one of these. As far as codifying and improving on what PDT has taught him, I disagree. I've seen it. I can answer several more of your questions and statements, but time or oath do not permit.
Here are some of my questions:
-Did anybody from your camp ever pass the BN instructors test?
-If your instructor asked you to not teach something and/or to do something within reason (train), would you follow his/her instructions?
-When you take an oath or a vow how long does that oath or vow stand?
-Did PDT wrong Steven in any way?

Bart

Orang Jawa

04-Apr-2006, 02:51 AM

Brother Steve,
Thank you for priceless info.
I'm going to shut up and hide in my cave now :)
Its getting muddier by the minute...
Tristan

Fireshadow

04-Apr-2006, 04:31 AM

Steve Perry

04-Apr-2006, 04:53 AM

.
Mr. Perry,
I don't think I mentioned any names either. You stated, " Unless you are intimitely acquainted with the details of each case, making broad comments may lack a certain .... accuracy." I couldn't agree with you more. As far as you having misconceptions about BN, I'm not so sure. BN went "underground" (if you want to call it that) in the beginning of the training phases. It was called a sub-system because not enough knowledge nor enough knowledgeable practioners were within the art to call it a system of its own. Of course, few claim BN as there art because there is no money to be made, due to many misconceptions. I don't imply that your instructor didn't have depth of knowledge in BN, I will say that his depth of knowledge only extends to the depth that was available at the time of his departure. Bukti Negara isn't intended as a filter. You obviously have many misconceptions about BN as you don't understand the purpose of the forward posture, among many other comments including weapon work, and the relevance of number of jurus and sambuts. Of course, PDT acknowledged Steven as a senior student of the traditional, I don't doubt that. I believe Steven was one of the first students. As far as the members of the BN board go, I do know them. It is not my place to repeat. From what I know and have seen, PDT has only asked for truth, keeping your vows, and hard training (that is all he has ever asked of me.) Those who left (or were banished) didn't follow through on one of these. As far as codifying and improving on what PDT has taught him, I disagree. I've seen it. I can answer several more of your questions and statements, but time or oath do not permit.
Here are some of my questions:
-Did anybody from your camp ever pass the BN instructors test?
-If your instructor asked you to not teach something and/or to do something within reason (train), would you follow his/her instructions?
-When you take an oath or a vow how long does that oath or vow stand?
-Did PDT wrong Steven in any way?
Bart

Guru Bemer:

To take things in reverse, the questions first. Yes, I believe two of our number were qualified as beginning gurus in Bukti. I could be wrong, but I thought that both Todd and Tiel had gotten to that level, and were so listed on the first Bukti Negara website -- which was Todd's creation. He maintained it until the Bukti board asked him -- demanded -- that he shut it down.

We had several former Bukti gurus drop by from time to time for training, and some who still do frequently.

If my instructor asked me to teach or not teach within reason, I would certainly do so. Then again, if I had helped my instructor develop an art and was then ranked as one of the senior-most gurus in that art, and somebody whose teacher I taught the art called my skills into question? I might be tempted to demonstrate them to him first hand.

Especially if my teacher just shrugged and washed his hands of it.

The taking of an oath requires a number of things, including a partnership with the people to whom I might be making an affirmation. It's a contract, and if one party breaks it, that tends to call the process into question. If you break adat and hormat in my direction, you can't really expect me to hold to it, now can you? If we both swear to keep a secret and you reveal it, then my allegiance to you is moot, isn't it?

Stevan hasn't asked for any oaths of allegiance. As far as I know, he's never kicked out a senior student.

Yes, the PDT organization did wrong Stevan. I am not bound by any foresworn secrecy oaths, but I'll leave it at that. They know what they did, and why. Ask them.

Until that point, Stevan certainly offered nothing less than truth, hard work, and he kept his vows. He taught Sera only to those the Pendekar approved, taught Bukti as a way of separating the serious from those less so as he had been told, and refrained from putting out any videos until after Paul had produced his own series of vids. Which I bought as soon as I joined the ranks of silat players, so I surely do know what Bukti used to look like under Paul's direct supervision.

If anybody says that Stevan was not loyal, hard working, and truthful, they are -- not to put too fine a point on it -- full of a word I can't use here without it getting bleeped.

I have just exchanged email with one of the Pendekar's former students, a silat teacher of some note with his own system, not currently in Sera(k), who trained with Paul back when Stevan was still training there. He's told me that he and Paul spent hours discussing the arts, including the idea that Bukti Negara was indeed a carrier art.

Believe that or not, as you will.

As I recall, Paul said as much about Bukti being an entry-level filter and had that posted on his website. It was also mentioned thus on other sites connected to the art by some of Paul's senior students, and if need be, I can probably dig those references up. But I don't think it will matter. I expect that the new and improved Bukti will gloss over those old strictures.

I have no problem if the art is now to be considered an end unto itself. But how it is now is not how it was then.

As far as Stevan's improving on Paul's teaching methods, you can believe what you like, and I will continue to hold to my own thoughts on the matter.

As I said, I don't try to keep up with what Bukti has become. For me, the front stance felt awkward when I learned it, and while the ideas of moving in and thinking forward are certainly valid, it isn't necessary to overbalance to manage that. We do it just fine with our basic stances.

Finally, and this will also have to be a matter of opinion, I trained in Bukti long enough to get 2/3rd of the way through what was then the curriculum. I am not expert in it but I learned enough to become familiar with it.

Bukti Negara might have evolved muchly in its underground phase, and improved greatly, I don't know. But the Bukti that used to be was the poor child of the father art. The difference between a six-shot revolver and a thirty-round rifle -- the rifle holds more ammuntion, shoots more accurately, reaches longer and hits harder.

Until somebody demonstrates otherwise, I can't believe that the daughter has, in the last few years, surpassed the father ...

As I have offered to others with whom I have entered into spirited discussions, please feel free to take this offline and have a direct coversation with me via email.

tellner

04-Apr-2006, 05:58 AM

Hey Bart,

1996? We must have tested for our Guru Muda rankings at about the same time. Was Guru Cliff Stewart on your testing board?

Mr. Perry,
I would say that what you are describing about the lineage being promised to someone,has probably happened within the organization I am involved with. Possibly, this occured twice. In those cases, I believe both practitioners who where in line to receive the lineage revealed their true character and someone else was chosen that could uphold the tenets of the art and who would continue with the training.

Well, now. That's certainly one view of things. It also illustrates why the whole "lineage holder" thing is rife with politics and backbiting and may be more trouble than it's worth. A piece of paper can be given or taken away. Declaring someone the heir of a system is a ceremony with precisely as much meaning as the participants give it. Knowledge and ability are not so fragile. Once they've been acquired nobody can take them away. The certificates and titles are not so sturdy. When student and teacher disagree or have a falling out they can be retracted, sometimes politely, sometimes with recrimination and character assassination.

I have a little knowledge of the things you are alluding to. There is certainly more than one side to those stories. All I can say is that my teacher has always been fair and honest with us and will not tolerate those who speak ill of Pendekar de Thoaurs. Since he inspires loyalty through his teaching and character his students are inclined to give it freely. If he began to demand it or asked but refused to give in return most of us would leave.

Due to those learning experiences our "group" dropped off the face of the earth and just trained the people who were willing to seek it out and put in the time. Bukti Negara is just now trying to re-establish a public image. Because of our "disappearance" there are many misconceptions about what has occured with the PDT camp.

Best of luck to you. I'm afraid the troubles within the family have made a lot of people gun-shy about dealing with the brothers or their students.

Sorry, I didn't include this in my previous post. You state that you "take my meaning", but I don't believe you do at all. The lineage is about preserving the real thing. The lineage keeps it proper. The lineage keeps people who just have part of the picture from messing up a good thing. Unfortunately, that is difficult in our western world. People take a little and then go out and do their own thing. Sometimes it is ego and sometimes it is to make a buck. The curriculum integrity is lost.

And sometimes "the lineage" is simply a tool of control. The promise of its bestowal or the threat of its removal may have absolutely nothing to do with integrity or quality control and everything to do with pettiness, ego or the joy of bending others to your will. What does "having the lineage" mean? It means that a person has decided to give a title. A title by itself is worthless, meaningless. It's the quality of the man or woman which is important.

Since you're bringing Steve and my teacher into this without actually saying his name let's talk about what he does and how he teaches. He teaches the Serak that he learned from your teacher. He does it carefully, slowly, with an attention to detail and quality that is very rare in this country in this era. The personal flavor and the way he explains things may be different than the way his teacher did. Your teacher did so in his turn and his teachers before him. The understanding, the curriculum, the principles, the teaching progressions and the other important things that he learned from Pendekar Paul do not. The two men had a falling out, sad to say. These things happen. Giving a piece of paper to someone else in no way invalidates two decades of training and discipleship.

I do agree that you don't need a certificate or title. It is easy enough to see living proof. I'm sure we would disagree about what the "real thing" is. I am pleased that you are happy in your training and I'm certain that you are getting a good thing. I am truly happy for you.

Alright, what is "the real thing"? In what way do the important parts of what we do differ from what you're learning? What principles, attributes and skills are we so deficient in that it shouldn't be called a branch from the same tree? Please be precise here. You're making a pretty serious accusation about the honesty and personal integrity of a man who takes them very seriously.

I just wish you and others would call the art you train in by a different name. "A rose, by any other name, would smell just as sweet." If it don't smell like a rose, it probably isn't a rose. Sure it may be a flower, and that is a good thing, but please don't call it a rose. Again, I am happy that you are happy with your training and I do wish you the best.

Bart, you've already said Steve is dishonest and betrayed the art for some nefarious personal agenda. Following a slap in the face like that with "but have fun with the inferior tag ends you've been given and have a nice life" doesn't come across as conciliatory or friendly. It's an insult pure and simple and a fairly smarmy one. If you're going to be like that the proper thing, the ethical thing, would be to back up what you're saying. Other than personal issues between my teacher and his what is he doing that separates what he does from what Serak really is? Please be specific. You've been at this about as long as I have, and we come from a common source, so you should - as a Guru - be able to explain in language which we can understand what the crucial differences are.

"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet." Indeed, it would. Calling it a stunted weed does not remove its fragrance.

Since we're quoting the Bard I'll leave you with one from Othello:

Who steals my purse steals trash; ’tis something, nothing.
‘Twas mine, ’tis his, and has been slave to thousands;
But he that filches from me my good name
Robs me of that which not enriches him
And makes me poor indeed.

Bobster

04-Apr-2006, 06:23 AM

I know I'm gonna burn in the seventh circle for this post. I accept my punishment with an open heart. I freely admit that I am asking for it here...

Stevan hasn't asked for any oaths of allegiance. As far as I know, he's never kicked out a senior student.
Pretty much the hallmark of someone endeavoring to be a GURU and not a GOD.

I was given to understand that Pendekar Paul added the silent "k" after arrival in the U.S.

He must have, we don't use it in Indonesia. It's just "Sera".

The fact that someone has actually had the brash arrogance to register the name as a trademark in the USA further proves that the person who did that doesn't have respect or understanding for the cultures surrounding silat in the Betawi area.

Kiai, there isn't a whole lot I usually agree with you on, but this is one of those times. Preach on, brother.

The lineage is about preserving the real thing. The lineage keeps it proper. The lineage keeps people who just have part of the picture from messing up a good thing.

It does no such thing. You are selling a fantasy. The "Lineage" does not prevent, safeguard or insure a system's success of failure in ANY way, other than a means to add mystique to the physical realm. The work is ENTIRELY in the hands of the teacher and the student. Period. Hard work & effort on BOTH of their parts are what does it. Not anything with "oogah boogah" attached to it.

Unfortunately, that is difficult in our western world. People take a little and then go out and do their own thing. Sometimes it is ego and sometimes it is to make a buck. The curriculum integrity is lost.

That last sentence was the sales pitch, wasn't it? Because Great Cthulhu FORBID they actually posess an ounce of common sense & have the foresight to see something the founder missed, eh? Wouldn't want them to suddenly wake up and seek something greater than what they know, now would we?

Why would you accept this as a regulator for what you think and do in your life? If I want to train with other instructors, that is MY business, not my teacher's. If I feel that life is taking me somewhere else, I would be remiss in my first obligation to ignore that: The obligation I have to MYSELF, who happens to be the second most important person n my life, right after my wife.

The western world rationalizes this by saying "the art needs to evolve" or "the man is a genious and needed to leave his instuctor so he could accelerate his training and pursue his vision."

And it's a true rationalization. BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE HUMANS, NOT GODS. We make mistakes. We don't know everything. But the nanosecond that we try to pass off to our students that indeed, we DO know everything, we are lying to them. Period. There are dozens of things I have discovered on my own that staying behind a "closed door" would never have allowed. Which is something else we have, as humans, and especially as Americans:Freedom of choice. The choice doesn't damn us because we "turned our backs" on our teachers. If they were worthy of the title in the first place, then they would recognize when it is time to LET GO. I'm not your frickin' son.

Of course, freedom doesn't come very easily to some people....

I just wish you and others would call the art you train in by a different name. "A rose, by any other name, would smell just as sweet."

That is just...Wrong...on so many levels that I simply don't have a good enough command of the english language to rebuke you over it. Call it another name? I feel certain that the upteen YEARS/DECADES that Maha Guru Plinck has invested in his Serak education are no less valid than yours. You call yours something different.

I have enjoyed watching this debate. It's like a train wreck...I don't wanna look, but I just can't turn away. I am more and more convinced with every posting of two important elements:

1: Habit, tradition and custom should NOT be above reproach, examination and criticism, nor should the dead rule the living. But we as a species are in absolutely no danger of ever learning that.

2: I am very much on my own island in this stubborn, insubordinate opinion of mine. Which tells me either I'm very far ahead, or hopelessly far behind. That may very well be the case, but I just don't see that many footprints in the sand ahead of me...

I said it before, tradition is fine, as long as it isn't dogma. But only see the RARE case of tradition being something to be proud of in an art, and not a thing for which you have to make excuses & give long explainations on before somebody will believe it...But don't take my word for it!! I am starting to enjoy watching how some of you can't wait to pledge your lives, time, and whatever modicum of self-respect you may have had to a man who promises you amazing powers if you can just get through his sub-system, sub-phylum, submarine, ad nauseum. A true "Master" doesn't have to resort to such gimmicks, they have skill. They are known by their excellence, not by their voodoo.

Lineage, just the word alone, seems to have a much more hypnotic effect. Honest to DAGON, I don't get how a rational, otherwise intelligent man (woman, whatever) can be so easily hypnotized by a pretty gold coin & the never-fulfilled promise of more.

And now everybody's beating thier chests over the martial validity of several students WHO TRAINED WITH THE SAME MAN FOR YEARS!!! And for no better reason than he became crotchety in his old age & said "I changed my mind". And here you all are, saying how the one side didn't really know what the other side knew, and how the others are STILL in the dark about the "truth" of Serak. Well, congratulations kiddies, THAT'S YOUR LINEAGE. There's your legacy right there. It's out on a flagpole for the world to see, mentioned at length on just about every major silat forum on the web somewhere.

It's enough to make me wonder if I'm on the right planet sometimes.

Steve Perry

04-Apr-2006, 07:05 AM

Mr. Perry,
I don't really care for the way this is going. It's not that I don't feel I can't defend my line of thought, it's just that I don't care too. I really don't want to say something against my oaths. I am pretty sure that we will continue to disagree on a lot of stuff. Let's try to stay out of the bickering (for the most part). You may answer to anything that you feel necessary that I have stated, but don't feel like you have to "defend your honor". I'm not overly concerned anyway.
My main purpose for being here is to inform people of BN. It's just a bonus that I get to get some of you guys bent out of sorts. At any rate, I truly am happy that you are happy and I do believe you are getting good stuff. I'm happy, too, so let's just all train (just not together!)
Bart

Well, that makes two of us. I haven't cared much for the ways things have been going in much of Silat Sera(k) for a long time. And part of why is commentary like yours. A snipe, in passing, that is outright insulting, followed by a patronizing attempt at sincerity -- "Yes, I'm happy you are learning that ... stuff, whatever it is, but you should call it something else because it isn't Serak."

I have heard that one before. It didn't impress me then, it impresses me no more now. It's not about me defending my honor. It's about me offering the truth as I see it, to counter a mistaken impression people might get if I allow such tripe to ripen without kicking it off the sidewalk.

As for me being bent out of sorts? Why, perish the thought! I merely respond as I have been trained: When attacked, I don't back up. I move forward to close. And I'm having fun doing it. I'm grinning from ear to ear even as we speak.

Don't care for the way it's going? The exit is just over there. I won't think any the less of you if you withdraw. Your oaths and all.

For a long time, I was more temperate in my responses to such blather as has come out of other branches about ours. No longer. If your purpose is to inform people about BN, then mine is to set the record straight as to who knows what about Sera as I see it. So when I see el toro's scatalogical leavings? I am gonna point it out.

Such as I have been doing in this thread.

If it bothers you to get your hands dirty, then maybe you should stop slinging mud, hey? You join the group, and withing a couple of days, you tell me the art I've been studying for a decade isn't what I say it is? And offer a superior smile as to the efficacy of your study?

Please. I have met and played with a few gurus from other Sera(k) branches and from Bukti Negara, and I'm still waiting for one who has something we don't have. I am old, slow, and not even close to being a guru and I can keep with them. Either they are absolute geniuses at being able to hide their vastly superior knowledge when pressed, or it ain't there.

I'm going with "it ain't there."

Bobster

04-Apr-2006, 07:21 AM

For a long time, I was more temperate in my responses to such blather as has come out of other branches about ours. No longer. If your purpose is to inform people about BN, then mine is to set the record straight as to who knows what about Sera as I see it. So when I see el toro's scatalogical leavings? I am gonna point it out.

Right on, Steve!!

*Dahn-dahn daan, dahn-dahn da-dahn, dahn-dahn daan, dahn da-dahn!*

...That's the opening keys to "Smoke on the Water", for all of you who missed it. It was really for Steve anyway.

tellner

04-Apr-2006, 07:55 AM

's funny, Bobbe. Tiel just looked at her "Where the Wild Things Are" t-shirt and said "Bobbe really does look like Max."

Bobster

04-Apr-2006, 09:34 AM

*smile* :d

Kiai Carita

04-Apr-2006, 01:06 PM

....Kiai Carita,
I only know a couple of things, the verbal history of Sera(k), which is at least pretty close to what Mr. Perry has stated up to the time of PDT. I also recognize the "living history", as I have had the opportunity of seeing many of the senior students or instructors move from the various camps (either live or on video). I also recognize that this is what my teacher (PDT) calls the art that he has received, as a direct lineage holder. The art was not to be taught to the general public. Any name will work in a pinch, but people would seem to be using the name of the art and the name of PDT to make money, against what they have vowed to do...

Salam silat everyone,

Fireshadow, it appears that you are confusing the history of Serak in the USA as the general history of Serak. I have said many times before that Serak is in Indonesia known as an aliran, meaning that there is no direct lineage holder in Serak in its original setting. It seems that after the de Thouars brothers began to teach their fighting arts in the USA, claims and counterclaims of lineage in Serak began so somewhere along the line someone was being less than truthfull or at least exagerating or sexing-up their claims.

However, in Indonesia, like in Cimande, Cikalong, Kari, Madi, Syahbandar and other aliran styles, there is no one Guru Besar (lineage holder) in Serak. In aliran styles silat is a community affair and lineage has never been important here, thus trying to verify lineage claims is very difficult. The history of silat is still very under-researched.

Take Cimande, for instance. Everyone in Sunda-land will tell you that Cimande is the oldest style of silat in West Jawa, and experts have worked out that Cimande was created by Mbah Khoir some time in the 18th or 19th century. This of course is contrary to the oldest mention of Sundanese silat in Sunda literature which mentions the fighters of the Pajajaran kingdom playing pencak using many different kinds of weapons in the Perang Bubat war with Gajahmada, which happened several centuries before this Mbah Khoir is supposed to have lived. How can the oldest pencak in Sunda be so young, several hundred years younger than the first written record of it?

The fact of the matter is that up till now, even though several people have gained PhDs from researching Sundanese silat, the history is still very sketchy. It is an absurdity that in the USA, some people are claiming lineage and authenticity in aliran styles. Just as absurd as how some people give out and address themselves using titles like Guru, Guru Besar, Guru Muda, Pendekar and so on. Why don't some of you come to Indonesia and seek out the truth yourselves? Don't you ever think that maybe, just maybe, what you call a rose is actually a magnolia?

Doesn't the fact that the many of the Pendekars who have spread these arts in the USA have proven track records of merely being at the level of a jago or pendekar and are NOT Guru material (patricide, quarells amongst brothers, quarrels with senior students, claims of woo-woo spirituality, selling 'spirit tombak', uncommon certificates, and so on) worry some of you? It certainly worries me! Kumaha atuh?

After saying that I should also state that I really appreciate and respect the attitude of the Stevan Plink branch who from their posts in this forum seem to truly understand and practise hormat. I imagine that Mr Plink is real Guru material.

Warm salaams to all,
Kiai Carita.

Bobster

04-Apr-2006, 04:00 PM

Tuankaki

04-Apr-2006, 07:15 PM

I still wonder what IT is, in terms of where it came from. One sees very recognizable elements of IT where it is referred to by name, all over the U.S. and Europe. Most of the talk on this forum focuses on the John deVries line. Guru Terlinden sure had boatloads of IT, and he had it so far back as to call into question whether he learned it from Paul in New Guinea or Los Angeles. The Reeders/Wetzel/Colangelo/Malterer (I'm inappropriately lumping them together here for brevity) lines claim substantive knowledge of IT, and many claim that theirs came directly from Mas Djoet, maybe with Ventje deVries as a training partner of Willem Reeders. And of course now our friend and neighbor Dr. Andre, one of the last Javanese born Dutch-Indos, and who used to live with Guru Terlinden, is a lineage carrier for the Ventje/Guru Maurice line from Holland, and is teaching yet another sub-system, Anak Serak.

There are boatloads of IT all over this country, and it is certainly NOT the monkey-weaponless-dirt-throwing-less-than-significant-subsystem of Cimande that I've seen described elsewhere. Before anyone flames me for this, I'm NOT saying that that particular art doesn't exist, or that they don't really call it Sera, or that they can't name Americans as Pendekkars of it - I personally don't care. That art is just nothing like what is all over the U.S. and Europe.

In fact, I'd be inclined to believe that IT is a Dutch Indonesian art, given the usage of the platforms as I learned them, (maybe adapted from European long blade work?) and how I know the Terlinden lines use them. I stop short of believing this, however, because the Suwandas put IT (some djurus, anyway) into Mande Muda, and I have never seen where Pak Herman's father trained with a deVries, Reeders, or Terlinden.

I'm personally not interested in contributing to ANY of the current feuds on this lineage topic although I can certainly see why Guru Plinck's students are. They've been getting slighted through the deThouars brothers' mistreatment of their teacher for a looong time now, and it persists. By the way, a lot of us are cross-pollinating as we speak (Bukti folks too), so if folks want to stay in a closed door society they can, but it's more fun out in the open air.

Anyhow, so far as lineage goes, I'd still love to know where IT (in the commonality of its present form) came from - just the last 100 years would be nice.

Buddy

04-Apr-2006, 10:40 PM

Well said and well reasoned.

Orang Jawa

05-Apr-2006, 12:01 PM

Doesn't the fact that the many of the Pendekars who have spread these arts in the USA have proven track records of merely being at the level of a jago or pendekar and are NOT Guru material (patricide, quarells amongst brothers, quarrels with senior students, claims of woo-woo spirituality, selling 'spirit tombak', uncommon certificates, and so on) worry some of you? It certainly worries me! Kumaha atuh?

Salam Kiai, I used to think the same things :bang:
I was shocked when a person claimed his a Guru and demamded to be call Guru. Some have their business card with those tittle too.
Now day, I can hardly contain my laughter. ;)
I don't really care....

After saying that I should also state that I really appreciate and respect the attitude of the Stevan Plink branch who from their posts in this forum seem to truly understand and practise hormat. I imagine that Mr Plink is real Guru material. Warm salaams to all,
Kiai Carita.[/QUOTE]

I have met Stevan, see him perform and conduct a class. See him behave in public. Stevan is an execellent silat player. His students have the right to call him Guru.
As far as to what styles he like to call his, since he no longer associate with PDT, he has the right to call his style what ever he desire. As far as Serak origin, I have to agree with Kiai, there is no direct link to Indonesia.
Have anyone ever see the padi trees? The more padi in his trees, the more trees bend to the ground. The less padi on the trees, they went straight up.
In silat that I knows, the more you know, the more humble you are. The beginers are always fight to go the top and to be reckon.
Be a Padi!
Tristan
Pendekar tidak berarti

tellner

06-Apr-2006, 09:19 PM

As far as codifying and improving on what PDT has taught him, I disagree. I've seen it. I can answer several more of your questions and statements, but time or oath do not permit.

Bart, if you're going to make unprovoked attacks you need to back them up. "I could tell you but it just isn't worth my time, besides I promised not to prove anything I say with facts" doesn't cut it. Those are not the words of an honest man.

Here are some of my questions:
-Did anybody from your camp ever pass the BN instructors test?
Why, yes. My wife and I both passed the Guru Muda examination with flying colors, probably the same year that you did. Guru Stewart did and then some. In fact, he was on our testing board more than ten years ago. Guru Latthitham has always been a special case, but yep, him too. Guru Plinck had all sorts of impressive sounding titles as an instructor which came straight from his teacher. If you want to extend "your camp" to include everyone with teaching credentials who was on friendly terms with Stevan and didn't shun him like a Biblical leper the list is even bigger.

-If your instructor asked you to not teach something and/or to do something within reason (train), would you follow his/her instructions?
-When you take an oath or a vow how long does that oath or vow stand?
-Did PDT wrong Steven in any way?
Within reason, certainly.
Depends on the conditions of the oath and how well the other party holds up his end.

As the poet James Leigh Hunt wrote:

"By Heaven," said Francis, "rightly done!" and he rose from where he sat;
"No love," quoth he, "but vanity, sets love a task like that."

You really don't want a full answer to that last question.

You're throwing out a lot of poorly disguised accusations here. If you've got something to say, say it. Tell us who made what oaths, who violated them and why.

You see, our teacher doesn't require oaths or vows from us. If you're his student everyone understands that you are straight with him and he will be straight with you. There is responsibility that goes both ways. When we screw up, and I've done it, he gives us grief. And it doesn't happen very often. For his part, he stands behind his friends and students when they need it, even if it costs him.

Orang Jawa

07-Apr-2006, 05:38 PM

You see, our teacher doesn't require oaths or vows from us. If you're his student everyone understands that you are straight with him and he will be straight with you. There is responsibility that goes both ways. When we screw up, and I've done it, he gives us grief. And it doesn't happen very often. For his part, he stands behind his friends and students when they need it, even if it costs him.

I agree with you Todd, the responsibilty goes both ways. I took an oath many moons ago and still to trying to keep the oath. I was told, if I can't follow the oath in entirity, than I should not claimed the system I learned and teach. Part of the oath is to use the teaching to spread Islam. This the part that I did not follow, all my students are Christian. Therefore, they understood where our silat system or aliran origins but they will not advertise as such.
When you teach someone how to break another's rules and you authorize that someone to break another's rules, the sooner or later that someone WILL break everyone's rules, including your own.
And I could be wrong too,
Tristan

Pekir

11-Jul-2006, 03:13 PM

Hormat,

Traditionally in Indonesia and the country that occupied this archipelago before it, linage has never been an important factor in pencak, silat, maempo, or silek schools. In fact traditionally there were never any silat schools, the first school in the ‘modern’ sense of the word would be the Setia Hati original school in East Java: Surabaya, then Madiun.

I fully agree with you on this matter. Though my teacher greatly appreciates his older students to know the name of the first known teacher and my teachers teacher, it is surely not something we bother our younger students with. In the case people ask me were our style has come from I'm just required to give them right set of answers, not more not less. This should never be used to impress others though I fully realize this happens to often (in the Netherlands, Europe, the US and yes also in Indonesia)

I the old days, at least in Indonesia, most Pendekar or guru didn't know any formal organisation and acknowledged new students when considered them fit to be one. These students may not have become their 'formal' heirs but surely will have used and named the various knowledge when they became teachers. On different posts some people have made a big deal of this and present lineage holders obviously take offence. In historic perspective I think this makes no sense. In my system we use some techniques that refer to a certain or different (well)known styles, by this we don't claim we inhereted the whole aliran. It just happen to be so that this technique has been part of our curriculum for decades or centuries, nothing more and nothing less. You might say we acknowledge the system for still naming their technique instead of using it and calling it our own.

Just to give you a example about names and the use of it. When my teacher visited a well known Pendekar of a major sundanese aliran and showed him some of our system he acknowledge our asli. This was of course greatly accepted by my teacher, then however he offered one of his badges and offered to use it in the future instead of our own. Ours sounded to much chinese... :) Since my teacher would leave the next day (to sadly never return) the technical curriculum of the sundase style was obviously not important

For this reason it is a waste of time for US pendekars to wrangle about the linage of Serak, and sad that someone has trademarked the name there. In Indonesia there is traditionally no sense of copyrights or intellectual property. If you invent a fighting method and your village follows you that is a reason to be proud, not to be upset. If some more skillful players then add on to what you found that is also seen as a blessing. The Islamic teaching that ilmu (knowledge) must be given back to Allah through amal (good deeds) means that traditionally silat teachers never sold their knowledge for pay, rather they would look after their students as parents. I have been lucky enough to be able to learn silat for more than free, when I visit my teacher I get free board and lodging as well.

I agree fully once more......

Sampai bertemu lagi

Pekir

English is not my native language so excuse the possible mishaps

Pekir

11-Jul-2006, 08:26 PM

Hormat,

This my first day as a member to this list so I might be a little over anxious in taking part since this is my second post today....

I've been reading up and down the various sublists and are not completely suprised to see a lot of (to say the least) animosity about origins and claims of heritage. I'm from the Netherlands and always thought we used te be unique in our quarrels and dismissal of each other on our origins and skills up to a level were it starts to hurt the silat community as a whole.

The fact of the matter is that in this internet age it becomes obvious that in those early days it was not due to the nature of specificly the dutch-indo community, it is a worldwide thing. I read of Indonesians who dismiss Americans, Americans dismissing Americans, Indonesians in England having verbal quarrels with certain Americans. WTF is going on.....

Again most of it is about the origins, the true heritage/lineage etcetera. To date silat is still one of the smaller MA in the world and if we keep going about it this way it will always be.

As I've done before I'll post my the perspective of what is true or not. I only lived in Indonesia the first year after being born in Bandung. Since I've lived in the Netherlands and have been raised in a fairly traditional dutch-indo way. A lot of things (surely not all) that I was brought up with differed a lot from the way the Dutch do things. The way we communicate with people for example, almost never direct and confronting. During my visits to relatives in Indonesia this specific aspect was largely enhanced. To them I was probably pretty direct. The way of story telling is a thing alike. I can tell stories in a pretty visual sense, they do it a lot better and extreme than I can. You can be bothered by this but to me it was beautiful to observe, esspecially in the cultural context.

And now I'm getting to the point I'd like to make. If you take a look at the way much (not all!) of Indonesian history has been handed over it is primarily by verbal means and sometimes accompanied with music or as music. In relation to the development of PS this plays an even bigger role due to the fact that most (if not all) systems/aliran2/styles were prior to WWII unorganized and local or regional orientated. In most cases their history has not been written down, let alone in a formal sense.

I can illustrate this with examples of my own relatives and esspecially cousins in Cililitan, Jakarta (all Indonesians) Our great grandfather was a renowned pendekar or guru (whatever the readers flavor or preference) in his kampung. With our present view some of you might designate my great grandfather as a djago but what the hack. The stories about this man are great to listen to and I constantly have to remind myself to take of my european glasses. The daughter of this man (my grandmothers sister) could be very visual when she told me about him but I can assure you that my cousins, while in the same room, could overpower her stories even more. The sons of my cousins who listen to these stories too will probably do this up to a certain extend too. I'm convinced that in countries like Indonesia were common people rely heavily on verbal history, stories about individual renowned men in time (sometimes a century or longer) will loose their accuracy somewhat.

Are we in the western world different? maybe in some ways... But don't we all know the phenomena that if you put circle of twenty people together and you tell one of them a story to tell to his neighbour, the story probably comes out a completely different way by the time you ask person #20 what the story was, maybe even losing it's context. Is this a problem? I don't think so, especially since we know there are few means to change it. It is simply impossible to comprehend the full history, origins, influencials and practitioners over a period sometimes longer than hundreds of years. This goes for individuals let alone if you try to look at the silat community as a whole.

Sure this makes it hard to decide if someone is telling the truth about his origins but so what? If you don't trust him go somewhere else. In almost all of the postings members rely havily on secondhand information which by so-called historical scientific standards aren't provenor submitable. Nevertheless most of us act as if they do use historical scientific arguments. There is a distinct difference between believing and knowing. One isn't more wrong than the other. Then, can it be better?

We will all start to look stupid if we keep dismissing each other like this...

Pekir