Full Contact Sparring in the ITF

[stump]

Are there any ITF groups who do proper full contact competitions?

If so how does the extra contact change people's sparring strategies etc?

[Tosh]

As far as I know there are no ITF groups which hold specific full contact competitions. However I now of plenty ITF clubs who travel to "OPEN" competions to fight full contact.

For me personally it taught me a lot of things. At the time I entered my first I had only been bbelt for about 6 months, wasn't a fantastic sparrer but could hold my own.

I think the main difference was 2 things, first I was a lot less likely to be able to "drive-over" people without recieving at least one GOOD contact on the way in.

Secondly it taught be that I didn't know my ass from my elbow when it came to slipping and ducking punches and my guard against these punches was regularly pummleled into my head.

Oh well we live and learn! :D

P.s. Just as an aside. For me the difference between semi and fullcontact is how you score the point, not how hard the sparring is!

EDIT: Just thought of something else, I realised I'd have to start training front legs techinques to actually hit with some power in order to be any use!

[Holgate]

tell ya getting that clout I had around the head the other day felt like full contact, knocked me senseless for a few moments and that was effectly ITF.

[jokl]

i've read and heard quotes from ITF world champions (Becky Riggs for one) that at the highest level ITF semi-contact effectively becomes full contact even though officially its semi-contact.

[Tosh]

I would agree even International competition raises the stakes.

[stump]

<<<ITF semi-contact effectively becomes full contact even though officially its semi-contact.>>>


Yeah that's an issue that bugs me. They won't even enforce or play to their own rules. That's why I hate "semi" or "light" contact....there's too much scope for someone to be hurt because their not expecting the level of contact that is used- and the standard guard used covers this.....as tosh referred to, when you get to FC the defence is totally different because the consequences of being hit are that much more serious.

[Tosh]

Originally posted by stump

Yeah that's an issue that bugs me. They won't even enforce or play to their own rules. That's why I hate "semi" or "light" contact....there's too much scope for someone to be hurt because their not expecting the level of contact that is used- and the standard guard used covers this.....as tosh referred to, when you get to FC the defence is totally different because the consequences of being hit are that much more serious.

Errrr that's not strictly true.

As i said the manner in which you score changes, and (providing the ref's not an arse) two equally competitors shhould be allowed to go as hard as they want. When it's a blatent mismatch or "unneceesary" contact then you get punished.

But that type of thing is a problem of poorely qualified center refs or poorly experienced.

[stump]

Sorry if i misquoted you, tosh

But they're hardly rules....and to be honest they're unenforceable.

The contact level should not change. In my time I have never heard the term unnecessary contact - only excesive contact

<<<two equally competitors shhould be allowed to go as hard as they want. >>>

Eh shouldn't that come under the heading of Full contact then??? :)

[flyingblackbelt]

i really dont like the fact that full contact is called full contact. I mean the way the people can kick in my school if they were to use full contact bones would be broken. They should really start calling it harder contanct sparring because full contact is deceptive. I mean my head instructor would completely fold you in half if he were to hit you with his back kick as hard as he could, i dont care how big you are.

[stump]

Full contact is called full contact because people train to compete in Full contact events - not that they use full contact every time they spar.

[Tosh]

Originally posted by stump

Eh shouldn't that come under the heading of Full contact then??? :)

For me "Full-Contact" doesn't say anything other than the following:

"You must make complete contact with a scoring area in order to score a point"

There loads of othe rthings to take into consideration but this is the only requisite of the term Full contact.

...well for me anyway :)

[Helm]

Well, its never really 'fighting', ITF, WTF full semi hard whatever. Its just learning to play a game imho. I dont think i could handle holding back my kicks. Thats why i like WTF sparring :D

Anyhoo, aside from the WTF ITF thing, the full contact issue is weird, it doesnt litterally mean FULL CONTACT. Its....bleh. Complicated i guess. :D

[wuchang79]

An ITF organization that has full contact is AIMAA. AIMAA is hosting an Open tournament next year in October.. for more info check the calendar on this site and the aimaa site. WWW.AIMAA.COM

[mattsylvester]

I was at the Norwich championships back 95, TAGB vs the World. One of the Russian fighters had his heart stopped by a back kick.

Originally posted by jokl
i've read and heard quotes from ITF world champions (Becky Riggs for one) that at the highest level ITF semi-contact effectively becomes full contact even though officially its semi-contact.

[stump]

My purpose in asking the question was to ascertain if the ITF had any comps that were proper full contact - you were trying to knock out your opponent.

I appreciate excessive contact happens in light and semi contact competitions...it's one of the things that bugs me about it!

Can you tell me more about the FC competition structure of the AIMAA? specific rules etc?

thanks

[flyingblackbelt]

i guess i never quite got the concept of full contact, i mean it takes a much more skilled martial artist to throw a kick at full speed and lightly tap someones head, we call em' love taps, than it does to just wail on a person. Besides, as my head instructor says, if you can tap them lightly on the side of the head in sparring, then, should you need to, you can land a hard kick in a self defense situation.

[wuchang79]

Specific rules can be downlaoded @ the AIMMA site. . http://www.aimaa.com/seminar.html
Click on the Official rules link

The last one was great and this one is proving to be even better.
The World Championships is held every four years. Complete rules, Divisions, Tickets and entry forms can be found online.

If there are any specific questions that aren't answered online just let me know.

[Tosh]

Is it just me or is the AIMAA competition semi-contact???

"No excessive contact. Any bruising, swelling, cutting or bleeding will result in
disqualification or a warning, depending on the seriousness of the contact. First and Second
warning = point given to opponent; Third warning = disqualification.""

:confused:

[stump]

<<<i mean it takes a much more skilled martial artist to throw a kick at full speed and lightly tap someones head, >>>

ok trying to politely disagree...mmmmnnnnggggggg......Dah it's no good....I can't do it :D

Rubbish of the highest order....tell that to all the unskilled buffoons who train thai boxing.....

And the idea that you hit lightly in training and then do it right on the street is crap....how you train is how you fight. The only thinking you'll be doing when it kicks off is how not to dirty your undies,

Ask that of a real expert in self defence...see what they say

Sorry if I'm being blunt but you're lving in cloud cookooland if you believe that

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by stump
<<<i mean it takes a much more skilled martial artist to throw a kick at full speed and lightly tap someones head, >>>

ok trying to politely disagree...mmmmnnnnggggggg......Dah it's no good....I can't do it :D

Rubbish of the highest order....tell that to all the unskilled buffoons who train thai boxing.....

And the idea that you hit lightly in training and then do it right on the street is crap....how you train is how you fight. The only thinking you'll be doing when it kicks off is how not to dirty your undies,

Ask that of a real expert in self defence...see what they say

Sorry if I'm being blunt but you're lving in cloud cookooland if you believe that

*sigh* :(

[Melanie]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. It is based on their past experiences and are shaped by social intervention. You were blunt and brash stump but please accept that not everyone will accept what you say - no matter how many times you say it! You're not always going to be right either!

Who's a real expert anyway? 'Cos some people think they are? Aww shucks..we do what we can mate :)

[stump]

Sorry no offense intended...but maybe people will start questioning these assumptions rather than believing them just because Sifu says so if they are challenged?

Real self defence experts?

Geoff Thompson
Peter Consterdine
Alan Thompson
Dave Turton
the SDF
the BCA
Marc Animal McYoung
Peyton Quinn
Kevin O'Hagen
Jamie O'keefe

to name a few

[Andy Murray]

In short.

Diss it when you can do it!

[stump]

Dis what? What can't I do?

[Andy Murray]

There's nothing you can't do?

Let me add weight to my arguement by adding names.

Pat McKay
Steve Morris
Terry O Neil
Hee Il Cho
Hok Aun Taeh
Wai Po Tang
Kevin Chan
Samuel Kwok
Kim Stones
Bill Wallace
Jhoon Rhee
etc.

You'' find my list has respect for yours and vice versa!

[stump]

OK andy you've made an art of missing the point mate.

The question was asked "who is a real self defence expert"?

I answered with a few names and related associations

Seeing as the only discernable argument you put forward was "sigh".....I don't see how your list answers anything

Now I ask again.......what can't I do? - you said dis it when you can do it - so you obviously had something in mind

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by stump
OK andy you've made an art of missing the point mate.



And you of repeating yourself. Might I suggest Kata practice? :D

The list you posted is of people you regard as real self defence experts.

Based on what?

Books?

Videos?

The opinion of peers?

An occasional Seminar perhaps?

I thought the original questions were;

Are there any ITF groups who do proper full contact competitions?

and;


If so how does the extra contact change people's sparring strategies etc?

The *sigh* was more related to; 'Here we go again'

Incidentally, this is the TKD forum, but you used the word 'Sifu'!

A clue?

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by stump


Now I ask again.......what can't I do? - you said dis it when you can do it - so you obviously had something in mind

You posted in reply to Tosh;

<<<i mean it takes a much more skilled martial artist to throw a kick at full speed and lightly tap someones head, >>>

by saying;

And the idea that you hit lightly in training and then do it right on the street is crap....how you train is how you fight. The only thinking you'll be doing when it kicks off is how not to dirty your undies,

This is a whole seperate issue to do with control.

[djhallib]

It all comes down to the nervous system. If you always train light "love taps" and never full contact "hate taps" :) your nervous system adapts. Then making a full contact blow on the street is not programmed in the nervous system.

That is not to say that the hit cannot be delivered, of course it can be. One who trains light taps could no doubt hit full contact on the street. But his hit does not recruit as many motor units for the blow, hence it will not be as powerful as the full-contact trainer blow. If a one-shot knockout is worth anything (on the street, it sounds pretty damn good) then you should train like that.

Like someone said before and like probably countless MA's have been saying for a while (including my own master) "You must train like you fight, for you fight like you train".

The nervous system has to "know" how to deliver full contact using many motor units to be able to do it without 100% concentration (not gonna happen on the street)

Of course, this is off-topic :)

My bit on topic:

I don't know any ITF clubs who train full contact.

In my opinion, the difference between full contact and semi-contact sparring is that in semi-contact, speed is much more an issue. In full contact, a good forceful blow can do real damage to the opponent if he's not prepared. So in full contact the ability to hit harder and be able to withstand harder hits becomes more important.

This opinion is not from experience, only observation since I only do either non-contact or full contact sparring. Never semi-contact. Again, I am not educated on the subject, just like to comment where I Can :)

[wuchang79]

I agree with Andy. . .Topic has sparked new issues. We discussing TKD and Full Contact right? Where the hell did Sifu enter the picture? I do have to agree that how u train is how u fight. . or else we could all just THINK about training and then we'd be fine w/o practice.

Having POWER without Practices is. . uhm. . how u say utter Freakin ridiculous. . .I'm sure all the great ones went around slapping/tapping heavy bags and stuff and step in the ring with all this power. . .Is the sky blue in ur world?

[wuchang79]

I don't know any ITF clubs who train full contact.

AIMAA does have schools that train full contact for some of the experienced fighters. . The World CHampionships in OCT of '04 in DUBLIN, IReland (plug) does have full contact divisions. . .

[stump]

Andy, get serious.

A great martial artist is not the same thing as an expert in real self defence. You listed the former....and I can personally vouch for at least one person on your list - I wouldn't **** with them but that doesn't make them an expert in self defence - and they themselves wouldn't claim to be either I'll bet.




i was asked who is a real self defence expert? - I answered

-------------------------------------------

You posted in reply to Tosh;


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<<<i mean it takes a much more skilled martial artist to throw a kick at full speed and lightly tap someones head, >>>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

----------------------------------

That was in response to flyingblackbelt by the way

I have done light contact martial art and found it useless. So I feel justified in talking about it and countering a blatently incorrect statement made here seeing as I've seen both sides.

If you don't believe me or even if you don't....don't take my word for it......go and find out from someone who really knows

[Andy Murray]

i was asked who is a real self defence expert? - I answered

Sorry old chuff, but the question was;
Originally posted by Melanie


Who's a real expert anyway? 'Cos some people think they are? Aww shucks..we do what we can mate :)

You added in the 'self defence' bit for yourself.

I have done light contact martial art and found it useless. So I feel justified in talking about it and countering a blatently incorrect statement made here seeing as I've seen both sides.

Personally, I don't agree with the whole 'How you train is how you fight' thing at all.
I can tap, and I can hit hard. I can use what I deem to be appropriate force ie 'I am in Control!'

That's personally. I don't do ITF, and I know very little about it.

How about you?

[Melanie]

er...I never meant to start anything peeps...

Incidentally...the "who is a real expert anyway?" was a statement not a question and the "'Cos other people think they are" was meant to mean that if I blow my own trumpet hard enough and put several large and small letters next to my name and appear convincing - for some people I won't even need to SHOW them a thing! Not everyone needs to be convinced by SEEING what I can do they only need hear and unfortunately that is sometimes enough for some people. In order to make us more rounded I think we should experience a little bit of each art and take whats useful to us personally.

[stump]

<<<Ask that of a real expert in self defence...see what they say>>>

That was the comment that started the whole thing off.

The further mention of general experts by Melanie was in reference to that - meaning your comment and subsequent list was irrelevant to the point in question.

I've had too many personal and anecdotal examples of people resorting to type when they are put under pressure. I believe the how you train is how you fight thingy is a real and well documented phenomenon.


And there is a big difference between a full contact fighter hitting light but solid shots in training and a person who trains light contact exclusively. They are different and I know they are because Ive experienced both.

Any one wishing to counter that argument...please avoid using the term "well YOU may have found that but......"

Ooh look we're almost nicely back on thread...:)

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by stump


- meaning your comment and subsequent list was irrelevant to the point in question.



Not really. The people I listed all know the difference between a tap and a bang. Seeing as ITF practitioners also do destruction testing, I'd imagine they do also?

I believe the how you train is how you fight thingy is a real and well documented phenomenon.

I don't. That's largely where we differ in opinion. It's largely been done before, but look for new thread on this subject, and we can thrash it out if you like.



And there is a big difference between a full contact fighter hitting light but solid shots in training and a person who trains light contact exclusively. They are different and I know they are because Ive experienced both.

As have I, they're only varying degrees of contact though, and Full Contact sparring is by no means the end of the scale.



Any one wishing to counter that argument...please avoid using the term "well YOU may have found that but......"

I don't see why anyone should. All anyone can give is their personal opinion, based on their own experience. You've given yours, I've given mine, everyone else can do the same?

[Tosh]

Originally posted by Andy Murray

I can tap, and I can hit hard. I can use what I deem to be appropriate force ie 'I am in Control!'



That's why the terms FULL CONTACT, LIGHT CONTACT, SEMI CONTACT are used primarilly to denote the scoring system.

How many times in your life have you seen an abosultley "perfect technique" thrown with agrssession intent and land on a vital area??

In my experiences they are few and far between. That's why in SEMI contact the emphasis is on a perfect technique on target to score a point. The emphasis on FULL contact is to (quoting the WTF rulebook)

"Points are obtained by striking the valid target areas with sufficient force to cause trembling shock or body displacement."

In all the WTF comps i've watched rarely do you see a good clear point that's perfect technique, now that's a difficult thing to do.


I think where the confusion lies in saying something is SEMI/FULL contact is indivdual perceptions to these phrases.

STOP! These phrases are used to denote how you score, not how much physical contact you should expect.

On another note, I'd say the amount of "Love Taps" you recieve in ITF competition sparring are only large if you a severly outclassed. I hate to keep doing it but i've got hundreds a pictures of my club getting "Love Taps" doing SEMI contact sparring -wanna see the ugly buggers? ;)

I would honestly say, like anything , if you aint tried it you have no experience to base it on. By "trying it" I mean competing at a high level, not training in a class, they are totally different animals.

[Thomas]

I have heard the arguments about no caontact, light, and full. At our school, we use them all:

(1) No contact (or for senior belts, touching without hurting) - this is a good safe way to break in new students, practice footwork and combinations without having to fear for your health. We work fast and practice good control. This is also good for practicing low kicks, groin attacks, and head strikes.

(2) Light contact (no pads) and light contact with some pads (headgear) - this allows us to use good clean techniques with enough power to hit someone so that they know it but not hurt them. This is a nice way to practice hand techniques and combination kicks. Sometimes we get "dinged up" a bit, but no one gets hurt and they develop a healthy respect for getting hit. Senior belts usually open this up to hand techniques to the head and sometimes we add grappling/anything goes with a high degree of control.

(3) 'Full Contact' (full pads - head, chest, groin, shin, forearms) - We use control and power to really get a feel for hitting someone. The biggest difference is the lack of the "adrenaline factor"... sometimes people do get bruised or hurt but rarely. When you are using power, you must ensure the safety of the students... hence the pads. For this, we usually use WTF rules... why? In order to ensure that power strikes are directed at protected areas.

I guess something that bothers me is when people assume that because TKD people practice power kicks only to padded areas is that "they are inept at low strikes, hand strikes, etc." We don't do them in competition in order to keep injuries down. Many schools teach this stuff and we use it... just not in SPORT competition.

[flyingblackbelt]

Tosh-spice wrote:
In all the WTF comps i've watched rarely do you see a good clear point that's perfect technique, now that's a difficult thing to do.

thats what i mean by love taps, you have to not only hit the person but also show the techniques properly, which requires a lot more thinking when your sparring because you cant just wildly throw kicks and hope that one of them lands, cuz even if it does it may not be a point.

[djhallib]

thats what i mean by love taps, you have to not only hit the person but also show the techniques properly, which requires a lot more thinking when your sparring because you cant just wildly throw kicks and hope that one of them lands, cuz even if it does it may not be a point.

Is that what we do? Wildly throw kicks around hoping one of them hits and is a point?

I know plenty of WTF-fighters who have excellent technique in their kicks and score points on almost any attack. Some beginners "wildly throw kicks" but only beginners and they quickly deplete their energy sources for maybe 2-3 points that usually get countered anyway.

It's a bit of a simplistic way of looking at wtf competition. As for the adrenaline factor, I feel much more adrenaline with competition full-padded sparring then with no-gear light/semi contact sparring, which we do practice in my wtf club, only not for competition.

And for Andy about his "being in control" and hence having both the ability to only touch with a kick and also deliver a blow.

I think this control, variable of course, is present in most martial artist. I suggest you take maybe 3-4 weeks with the heavy bag. Select a single kick for experimentation purposes and use it in sets and reps kinda like with weights on the heavy-bag using absolutely 100% maximum force for each kick. When the kick starts getting weaker, stop and wait a couple of days before trying again. We'll see what you think of the power in your other kicks after that. If you give it an honest try you'll probably post in the forum.

Of course you CAN kick hard now..anyone can kick pretty hard its not that difficult. But how much harder will you be able to kick after you train kicking hard? You won't lose your "tapping" ability if you try anyway.

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by djhallib

And for Andy about his "being in control" and hence having both the ability to only touch with a kick and also deliver a blow.

I think this control, variable of course, is present in most martial artist. I suggest you take maybe 3-4 weeks with the heavy bag. Select a single kick for experimentation purposes and use it in sets and reps kinda like with weights on the heavy-bag using absolutely 100% maximum force for each kick. When the kick starts getting weaker, stop and wait a couple of days before trying again. We'll see what you think of the power in your other kicks after that. If you give it an honest try you'll probably post in the forum.



Uh, think you missed the point somewhere along the line djhallib.

Been at it for more than 3-4 weeks mate.

[flyingblackbelt]

djhalib wrote:
I think this control, variable of course, is present in most martial artist. I suggest you take maybe 3-4 weeks with the heavy bag. Select a single kick for experimentation purposes and use it in sets and reps kinda like with weights on the heavy-bag using absolutely 100% maximum force for each kick. When the kick starts getting weaker, stop and wait a couple of days before trying again. We'll see what you think of the power in your other kicks after that. If you give it an honest try you'll probably post in the forum.

okay, thats the entire point of martial arts, i dont quite what your getting out, i mean ive brought my sidekick from a 2 board technique to a 9 board technique and my roundhouse to a 6 board technique, which broke entirely too easy so im gonna try 7, but i didnt specifically set out to do it, it just so happened that i regularly train on heavy bag for all of my basic techniques and most of my more advanced techniques, some of the more impressive aero kicks its better to use smaller hand targets for. wait, what were we talking about again?

[stump]

Tosh, if FC, LC etc is only about scoring systems why in many non full contact comps is there a law regarding excessive contact? (And why is it not enforced - but thats another story)

That suggests to me that the force you use has something to do with it.


OK so saying it takes wonderful control to tap someone instead of bust them, why practise something that could get you ****ed up in a real fight? I'll say it again - how you train is how you fight.

What is the end of the scale Andy as a matter of interest?

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by stump


What is the end of the scale Andy as a matter of interest?

The end of the scale?

Life or death.

Getting your head stamped on by people who don't care about your life.

Defending friend and family etc

To me training in full contact/vale tudo/ufc etc can be more dangerous than some TMA practice, if you develop a false sense of confidence as a result. Note I said 'some' not 'all'.

Training to me is not about fighting other combat athletes, but about surviving assaults by untrained people who have a damn sight more intent than you'll ever see in a sport or game.

[Helm]

Stump, ffs. Its absolutely astonishing that you can stay both arrogant and irgnorant at the same time, whilst staying oblivious to either.

I dont train in TKD because i fear for my life on a daily basis, i train in it, like alot of others because its FUN. Now FUN is like when you laugh and stuff, only you dont achieve this by going on the interweb and rubbishing something you dont understand.
You can understand TKD, but NEVER understand someones reasoning for training if you dont take the time to listen.

I love training in TKD, it keeps me fit and VERY athlectic (i.e. extremely flexible and quick) and i also love sparring ALL OUT in training without seriously damaging someone.

Now if you train in UFC or something, you CANT train ALL OUT because you'd just injure eachother....especially beginners in no time. So kicking someone real hard with a body protector on hurts neither me nor him.
Now i can kick someone in the body if they are moving backwards, forwards, sideways...hell..i can spin and hit them.....throw a fake and hit them.

Now take the body protector away. What have we left...?

Just a person. An attacker...whatever. Do i hesitate because i think "****, i got no big body protector to aim at? Hell no i dont"

Basically "train how you fight". I kick people in the body, when they are moving as randomly as possible, with full power on a regular basis.
Im not saying im a great street figher, because i've never had to fight on the streets.

I mean just say it dude "TKD is the worsest, i am the bestest and i have a big willy and i am the hardest person in da world" or something. Stop pussy footin around.

[Andy Murray]

Hold on there Bald Eagle :D

Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

There's no arrogance or ignorance involved, just expression of opinion.

[Melanie]

"Freedom of Words" (c) (where have I heard that before??) Thats what this forum is all about. I am all for 'healthy' debate but could all participants in this thread please read carefully through the previous posts before posting and take a DEEP breath. We all form our opinions from the experience we have had and we all have different of both! This is the place to discuss aforementioned and take into account what others have said and either take it on board or ignore it :)

(P.S. Well said Andy - you managed to say the above in a much shorter version ;) ) This is for the late night readers ;)

[Andy Murray]

Some people see what they want to see, and what they want to see, is something to disagree with.

Or do you disagree? :D

[Melanie]

Hahahaha - completely mate! ;)

[Andy Murray]

You disagree? ;)

[Artikon]

I disagree for disagreements sake, but Andy, you have to agree with me on a future agreement, even if the disagreement you may have with me agrees with your will to disagree . . . umm what?

Okay to the discussion, I can't say anything about the contact, lack thereof, or what have you in the ITF. What I do know is persons training in ITF do agree that there is a rule where excess contact is not permitted. Likewise I also know that this isn't always the case from some of the statements made by ITF players.

In WTF there is no rule that says anything about excessive contact, just that you may not strike to the head with your hands. I'm allowed to hit as hard as I bloody well want. Is this better than ITF? Who knows, I've never competed in ITF but I may pressure test that this year and learn the rules of competition and enter a tourney just for fun. Lucky I just picked up a little boxing so maybe I can at least hang in there with the hand game ;)

As for self defense . . . self defense experts . . . easy. Anyone who is able to stay out of altercations and prevent them by being aware of surroundings. To paraphrase and instructor in the states. "I'm stronger than a bullet because I know not to get myself in a situation where a firearm is necessary"

That to me speaks volumes. Of course you must train for the physical side of any sort of altercation that happens. By training no contact, semi, or full are training methods and tools. Use them all and you benifit as a martial artist and as a self defense expert.

IE) You and your good friend have been drinking, you the martial artist who trains soley for hard and full contact, him being the obnoxious drunk. He finally takes offense to something, you aren't sure what, and in his drunken stupor tries to pick a fight with you when his testosterone level is above critical. Being the full contact trainer you are, you drive him, shattering his nose, knocking him out, and possibly losing a good friend in the process.

Now as a person who trains all levels you have the ability to control the level of damage and just subdue him enough without overkill. Why work harder than you have to by expending so much energy when you can do something that's appropriate and ends the altercation and saving a friendship.

Okay granted I know most good friends aren't going to go have a night of drinking and end up chucking knuckles, but that's a scenerio that could happen, has happened to people, and will happen, but not often. As a martial artist I believe its a persons job to limit damage if there is a chance and a reason to, thus being somewhat of a humanitarian.

If there is no reason or chance to, of course put 'em to the ground, and be ready for another. Hit fast, hard, often, and as many people who come within reach . . . unless they're wearing a uniform :D

[Tosh]

Originally posted by stump
Tosh, if FC, LC etc is only about scoring systems why in many non full contact comps is there a law regarding excessive contact? (And why is it not enforced - but thats another story)

That suggests to me that the force you use has something to do with it.


Of course you are right! An excessive contact rule means...

"Hey this is meant to be about technique NOT force"

In my experience excessive contact warnings are usually dished out to those who already have the advantage an deal out an unesseccary blow where they could have easily used a less powerfull technique.


OK so saying it takes wonderful control to tap someone instead of bust them[/qoute]

Of course it does....

[quote] why practise something that could get you ****ed up in a real fight? I'll say it again - how you train is how you fight.
[/B]

As someone already said BECAUSE ITS A SPORT!!

Honestly, if how you train is how you fight, does that mean that the way you learn to spar for competition purposes mean it's the same way for self defence???

Who said ITF sparring = self defence training... survey says EUGHH EUGHGH WRONG ANSWER!

By your theory do you discount Amateur boxers because the objective is not a knock out??

[stump]

Wow - so many issues....so little time!!!! :D

Will get back to you all but very quickly,

Tosh - the objective of ABA boxing IS a knock out because its the quickest route to a win - the ultimate aim.

http://www.aiba.net/AIBA%20Rules.pdf - see this link

[Tosh]

Originally posted by stump
Wow - so many issues....so little time!!!! :D

Will get back to you all but very quickly,

Tosh - the objective of ABA boxing IS a knock out because its the quickest route to a win - the ultimate aim.

http://www.aiba.net/AIBA%20Rules.pdf - see this link


I'd like you to go back and quote the part where it says a "knock out" is the objective. ;) If so then what's the difference between amateur and professional?? Why do they bother counting points in amateur boxing then??

Do you mean one of the "win scenarios" is the fellow competitor is knocked out?? :D

A win scenario in ITF sparring is your opponent being knocked out?? Is this not the same then??

But back to the original point. Do you consider people who train in a competitive nature, with rules and regulations likely to get broken in a street fight? Just interested.

[stump]

Helm I'll say it again...there is a difference between Light contact as practised by numerous karate, TKD, Kung fu etc clubs and the controlled contact used in Boxing and other full contact martial arts - there shouldn't be but there is. By the way I was discussing ITF, sounds like you do WTF.

<<<I mean just say it dude "TKD is the worsest, i am the bestest and i have a big willy and i am the hardest person in da world" or something. Stop pussy footin around.>>>

I think someone needs a little nap :)


Tosh
<<<A win scenario in ITF sparring is your opponent being knocked out?? Is this not the same then??>>

Eh no actually in my limited experience and those I've heard of I have never heard of a competition where if you knock out your opponent you win....you get disqualified for excessive contact. If they did aim to knock each other out there should be a lot more medical attenetion at these comps than just some St Johns Ambulance person. So which is it?

I think you failed to notice me saying that the win was the ultimate aim.


Andy-

life or death doesn't exactly have a place on a contact level scale!!! ;) but I see what you're saying

<<<You and your good friend have been drinking, you the martial artist who trains soley for hard and full contact, him being the obnoxious drunk. He finally takes offense to something, you aren't sure what, and in his drunken stupor tries to pick a fight with you when his testosterone level is above critical. Being the full contact trainer you are, you drive him, shattering his nose, knocking him out, and possibly losing a good friend in the process.>>>


For a start if he's a stupid drunk he's no friend of mine! Fine. so are you saying that if I blitzed him or hit him with a love tap turning kick he'd suddenly see the light and stop? Sorry mate I can't see what you point is


Training Anything short of full contact hitting in self defence is of no value and is quite possibly detrimental .....again that's another story

[stump]

<<<But back to the original point. Do you consider people who train in a competitive nature, with rules and regulations likely to get broken in a street fight? Just interested.>>>

Good question.

Personally competitive training gives you one edge on people who do not train competitively - the compliance issue. Without an element of competition it's easy to gorget that the person you're about to beat with the dim mak from hell doesn't actually want you to do it!

Any form of competition helps that to an extent.

Full contact is better though because it keeps you aware that someone is trying to do you harm...this is easily forgotton in a semi or light contact competition.

The rules thing is an issue which is why I prefer MMA as a base for self defence......it may not be perfect in itself but it is the best delivery system for real self defence.

[Tosh]

Originally posted by stump


Eh no actually in my limited experience and those I've heard of I have never heard of a competition where if you knock out your opponent you win....you get disqualified for excessive contact. If they did aim to knock each other out there should be a lot more medical attenetion at these comps than just some St Johns Ambulance person. So which is it?


Notice I said it was a win scenario, notice you say "in my limited experience". Okay how about me saying in my capacity as a referee and a representative for Scotland at this years world championships this is the case. Does it change your opinion? It's not the objective but it is a win scenario. I know countless people who have been knocked out by technique landing on the money without much force and reulting in a knockout. Haven't you?


I think you failed to notice me saying that the win was the ultimate aim.


Nope saw you saying....a knockout was the quickest way to a win - which is the ultimate aim.

To be fair stump since you say you have little experience in ITF sparring i fail to see how you can qualify your arguments?

If you want to take it further PM me since this thread is too way off track as it is!

[stump]

How much experience do I need before I am allowed comment?

[johndoch]

Fighters shouldnt train all out all the time, thats just stupidity IMO. Intensity should be kept high enough to be improving but not so high to be constantly getting injured. Whats the point in training to fight if youre injured???

Take boxers they dont train at the same level all the time even though its higher than your average MA. Coaches tend to raise the level 6 weeks prior to the fight.

ps I have no ITF experience except for watching a few classes does this make my point invalid?

[stump]

John my point is that a Boxers light contact is quite different to a semi contact persons light contact.

[Tosh]

Originally posted by stump
How much experience do I need before I am allowed comment?

Okey stump and johndoch,

Before this turns into a "is my point valid discussion?"

I said this to stump because he said (when referring to his ITF competiton experience!)

"Eh no actually in my limited experience and those I've heard of I have never heard of a competition where if you knock out your opponent you win...."


This is not the case. Therefore, in his "limited experience" he has the wrong answer. Agreed??

If you got the wrong end of the stick my apologies.

You can comment all you want, I'm only trying to correct opinions that are wrong. If you are not happy with it don't post!

[Tosh]

Originally posted by stump
John my point is that a Boxers light contact is quite different to a semi contact persons light contact.

Do they actually use the phrase "light contact" for amateur boxing??

[johndoch]

Stump - Boxers probably hit harder than most but I've had a quite few kicks/punches at Kung fu and kickboxing that have been pretty damn heavy. I would say its down to the coaching and keeping egos in check thats tough.

Tosh - In my poor humour I was just letting all know that I dont have much experience in ITF TKD but was making a general training comment.

[Tosh]

Originally posted by johndoch

Tosh - In my poor humour I was just letting all know that I dont have much experience in ITF TKD but was making a general training comment.

Soz my bad! :D

[johndoch]

Quote "You can comment all you want, I'm only trying to correct opinions that are wrong. If you are not happy with it don't post!"

Hey Iam always Happy:mad: ;)

[Artikon]

For a start if he's a stupid drunk he's no friend of mine! Fine. so are you saying that if I blitzed him or hit him with a love tap turning kick he'd suddenly see the light and stop? Sorry mate I can't see what you point is

Not saying giving him a little love tap will stop him, but why not try something else. Throw him into a joint lock, subdue him that way for one. From there you have control of the situation and have the ability to apply more pressure if you want if he doesn't stop. If you constantly train full contact, doing something like this would probably be a quick dislocation or break. Why do that to a stupid drunk friend:) Limit the damage that you need to do, and him and yourself will be thankful in the morning. Course if he doesn't quit, then go ahead and maim, you have that ability too. That's my point :D

[Tosh]

Originally posted by stump


The rules thing is an issue which is why I prefer MMA as a base for self defence......it may not be perfect in itself but it is the best delivery system for real self defence.

Nah. ;)

Self defence training is. :D

NHB/MMA may be the best competition style that offers this.

But nothing beats pressure testing and trying to create lifelike scenarios. The minute you introduce "rules" then it's not lifelike.

[stump]

OK one issue at a time

Tosh the following are taken from the ITF website…they don’t suggest to me that a knockout wins the fight. Maybe you use different rules but if you do they are not standard issue ITF sparring rules. And in your competitions do you have people specifically going for knock outs?

Other rebuttals to follow :D

Article 35. SCORING PROCEDURE
In competition a technique is valid when:
A. it is executed correctly,
B. it is dynamic, that is to say it is delivered with strength, purpose, rapidity and precision,
C. it is controlled on the target,
D. perfect block:
i.) defender must maintain complete balance,
ii.) an appropriate blocking tool must be used,
iii.) block must be powerful and accurate,
iv.) defence must be maintained at a proper distance,
v.) opponents balance must be broken.


Article 36. DISQUALIFICATION
A. Misconduct against officials or ignoring instructions.
B. Heavy contact.
C. Committing 3 fouls.
D. Any competitor suspected of being under influence of alcoholic beverages or drugs.


Article 39. INJURY
A. When a competitor is injured, the Centre Referee must stop the match and call the Doctor. The Doctor must diagnose, treat the wounds and decide about the match continuation.
B. When a contender cannot fight on because of Doctor's decision:
i.) he is the winner if his opponent is responsible;
ii.) he is the loser if his opponent is not responsible.
C. An injured competitor that is unfit to fight, according to the Doctor's decision, cannot fight again during the event.
D. A competitor that refuses to accept the Doctor's decision will be disqualified.
E. If two competitors injure themselves at the same time and both are unfit to fight, according to the Doctor's decision, the winner is the contender that has more scored points at that moment. If the competitors are even, the Jury President will decide about the bout.

http://www.itf-information.com/information10c.htm

and as always if I got it from a link it MUST be right !!!

[stump]

Re the competitive issue I definitely agree. Real self defence is the best for real self defence. In the absense of Dave Turton/Geoff Thompsonesque SD then MMA is a good competitive base to start from.

And it's a much better platform than a lot of the crap passing itself off as self defence

[johndoch]

From above "B. Heavy contact." leads to disqualification.

So how do you define heavy contact. My heavy contact could be heavier than the next guys or vice-versa.

Is heavy contact more to do with brawling rather than good techniques landing heavily?

[Tosh]

Originally posted by stump
OK one issue at a time

Tosh the following are taken from the ITF website…they don’t suggest to me that a knockout wins the fight.


"B. When a contender cannot fight on because of Doctor's decision:
i.) he is the winner if his opponent is responsible;
ii.) he is the loser if his opponent is not responsible. "



There you go. Knockouts can happen by accident or can be non-intentional and the decision will go to the non-knocked out party.

Fair enough it doesn't say this directly, but then again that does not mean to say it is not true.

At international level, yes people go with the intention of hitting hard as possible while staying within the rules. If that results in a knockout then it happens.

You can quote the rules as much as you like, it doesn't change the fact that knockout doesn't automatically mean heavy contact and/or excessive force. A technique applied "on the target", notice not through, with dymanic force can result in a knockout.

That's something I've gained personally from experience. Again if you are not willing to accept that answer then fine, but until you say "Yeah I've been there I know you are wrong." then it's a little hard to judge experience against opinion. What else can I say that make you considering changing your opinion?

If you are not willing to accept that what I'm telling you is the case then what's the point of dicussion??

EDIT: Next rebuttal please ;)

EDIT 2: Please remember that the rules you quoted are generally used as the basis for International and World championship level. National & Regional comps tend to have stricter guidlines regarding contact levels. This is mostly due to the fact that World and International champs are black belt only comps and therfore should expect a higher level of "competition".

[stump]

OK tosh youre seriously loosing me here mate.

I hit my opponent and knock him out - by the rules he can't continue, it's my fault and therefore he wins.

I can't see any other interpretation

[Tosh]

Did you have your guard up?

Was the technique thrown in a controlled manner?

Decisions like these are not as black and white as you portray them to be!

If it was judged intentional then you would be. If it is a controlled technique spot on the target then it's deemed that injury or knockout was not intentional.

There more than one way to skin a cat you know! Like a said it's not the objective to KO but some people can, and will, go for a knockout in this manner.

Still lost? :D

[stump]

Yeah,

he can't fight on and I'm responsible..... o I should lose irrespective of what I hit him with

I think this shows the innate flaw in light contact competitions....the rules can't be enforced properly because we can't agree on an interpretation. Are there any further documents to clarify this?

[JAY_TKD]

Hi guys... allow me to rudely jump in!! ;)

I train in ITF stlye tkd... (AIMAA to be exact).. and we dont even do point sparring anymore (except for juniors). Our fights are semi-contact continious up to black belt. Then from there on its full. Ive fought in a good few full contact fights and if my nose bleeds the fight doesnt stop. If someone is KO'd the fight will stop...obviously! The person who was KO'd looses unless it was excesive contact or an illegal move. EG, repeatedly punching after ref calls stop/break or a blind back spinning elbow...
But the catch is, it's referee's discretion, so depending on what comp you are in or who is reffing, excessive force may by a 'nice hit'.

Most of the time though, if youre KO'd, you loose!! Game over!

[stump]

Hi Jay, welcome to the fracas. Nice to see another Irish person around.

Are the medical professionals at the same standard as there would be for a boxing/kickboxing/MMA match? Do fighters have to undergo the medical preparations required in other full contact sports? If not that's an accident waiting to happen!!!!!!

[Tosh]

Originally posted by stump

I think this shows the innate flaw in light contact competitions....the rules can't be enforced properly because we can't agree on an interpretation. Are there any further documents to clarify this?


Errr stump??

The rules are enforced properly, it's you that doesn't agree with the interpretation of them!

I fail to see why you can't see this, or maybe you just do not want to??

and it's not light contact, it's semi-contact which means points are scored by hittting the target.

It doesn't illustrate the gamute of the rules!

[Tosh]

Originally posted by stump
Hi Jay, welcome to the fracas. Nice to see another Irish person around.

Are the medical professionals at the same standard as there would be for a boxing/kickboxing/MMA match? Do fighters have to undergo the medical preparations required in other full contact sports? If not that's an accident waiting to happen!!!!!!


No they don't because it's not full contact.

Do rugby players need a medical checkup before they compete??

No.

Is there a chance they may get knocked out? Yes.

It's not full contact! Who said it was?

EDIT: Yes there are Doctors and parammedic attending these competitions, as there should be.

If you want proof I'll show you video tape of one of the Irish and Welsh team being examined by the Doctor (at this years World champs in Greece) before being allowed to continue.

[JAY_TKD]

The quality of medics in a tourmanemt are pretty (below) standard I think. Even in full contact competition. In nearly every comp Ive been in, there was some large heavy person in a green uniform posing as a medic, who stuffs a bit of cotton wool up your nose no matter what is wrong with you... even if you sprained your ankle or something!
"oh... looks like we gotta a bit of blood on the nose"... "eh... no, I sprained my ankle...", ....."I'll patch that up with some of this.... now.... your nose is as good as new!"
A lot of mickey mouse competitions that I've entered only had medics that were probably only qualified to work on animals...! Its not gonna stop me entering, even though I know its wrong and silly. I just hope I dont get badly hurt... which is something I shouldnt have to worry about. Anyway, my instructor at ringside would know how I am if I was injured. He would know if I was able to continue or not... I can trust him... which makes me feel a lot better about going into the ring....

[stump]

apologies I meant full contact combat sports

[Tosh]

Originally posted by JAY_TKD
The quality of medics in a tourmanemt are pretty (below) standard I think. Even in full contact competition. In nearly every comp Ive been in, there was some large heavy person in a green uniform posing as a medic, who stuffs a bit of cotton wool up your nose no matter what is wrong with you... even if you sprained your ankle or something!


BWAHAHAHA :D I've actually seen that guy too! He was at the Scottish in Glasgow this year! :D

IMO that's the center ref's fault. If it's got that bad at regional/national level it should have been stopped before hand. I mean of course accidents happen but you usually see the signs that things are kicking off way before it happens.

Just as I side note, most TKD/Karate/ Open tourneys have less than 50% qualified refs attending. Recently, the situation has been improved greatly thanks to the efforts of our Chief Umpire, but its really not good.

I was at a comp in Nottingham last year where one of the corner judges asked my my opinion on a call!! I was spectating at this point!!!

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by stump

Andy-

life or death doesn't exactly have a place on a contact level scale!!! ;) but I see what you're saying

Training Anything short of full contact hitting in self defence is of no value and is quite possibly detrimental .....again that's another story

There's a bit missing between these two statements.

Why are you wasting your time twirling sticks if this is the case?

[stump]

Because I don't practise escrima for self defence......

I practise it because I enjoy it and the fact it's a wonderful martial art....it's not ideal self defence material though

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by stump
Because I don't practise escrima for self defence......

I practise it because I enjoy it and the fact it's a wonderful martial art....it's not ideal self defence material though

So others can practice their arts for the same reason?

They may also be aware of what does and doesn't work?

[mattsylvester]

How can you say that Escrima isn't good for self-defence? OT I know but come on! Empty hand Escrima is amazing, add a stick and it's devastating, add a knife and you're unstoppable!

Train with Yoda and you'll see what I mean.

Because I don't practise escrima for self defence......

I practise it because I enjoy it and the fact it's a wonderful martial art....it's not ideal self defence material though

[Roper]

Sorry to drag out old posts but I've been browsing....


Now if you train in UFC or something, you CANT train ALL OUT because you'd just injure eachother....especially beginners in no time.

Now Helm, I just know you've never trained Vale tudo. a) cos you called it UFC which is an event not a sport. And b) cos of the dumb assumption above.

Two people, properly coached can train all out and not injure each other. Two beginners with improper guidance or instruction can injure each other in any contact sport, football, rugby etc...... Go to your local Vale Tudo "UFC" club and have a go if you want, or just keep posting false assumptions.

The terms full/semi/light or whatever, its a bit of a rough point because ITF is really three ITF's these days isn't it? It varies so much from place to place.
All I can tell you is that my sparring is full contact and thers few injuries because there's respect between partners and quality in the instruction.

Once again, sorry for taking a giant leap feet first into an old topic.

[Taliar]

I have competed in lots of TAGB / ITF comps. If you knock someone out, you should at least get a warning for excessive contact and lose points, and maybe be disqualified in which case the KO'ed person will go through. If it is judged to be 'accidental' i.e. they stepped into technique etc, the KO'ed person will be asked if they want to continue they match.

This is down to the ref's discretion and he should take in to account the competitors grade. A BB should be able to deliever fast powerful - controlled techniques. While lower grades may have less control they shouldn't be allowed to turn there match into a slug fest of 'haymaker' punches.

[Kwajman]

Just like any sport, I think there are implied risks when you practice a MA. The occassional bloody nose, lip, or bruise is just part of the game. A knockout in competition is a bit much and a fighter would be disqualified anywhere in TKD for that. Most tournaments you'll get a disqualification for drawing blood. I think the reasoning is that most competitors should be under enough control to prevent a full on punch or kick. Accidents do happen tho and you won't always be penalized for it.