Inside Kung fu Article [Archive] - Martial Arts Planet

serakmurid

26-Feb-2006, 08:06 PM

Mas Judt,
Hmmm, Ustad Guru Dan Inosanto and Guru Horacio Rodriguez are in the last 2 Phases of the art and are learning Pak Sera's original system, Susunan Lima. So I guess Pak Vic does not eject "everyone who gets very far in the art". A senior of mine, Guru Tim Lucas, at the last ring of fire in 2005, was able to do all of Sekurum Empat and was commended by Pak Vic for being the first westerner he has seen do the Langka. Or people like Guru Muda Ray Graham, Guru Muda Bernie Langan? They have progressed rather far in the art. And I have many fellow Pembantu Gurus that are learning the art of Sera with no restrictions by Pak Vic, in fact, I am surprised at how liberal he has become with the amount of material he shares! Please, sir, do not make such a statement.

RAMANA1, if you have some issues with Pak Vic, you could always: call his phone number, send him an email, send him a letter to discuss these with him. It is always wonderful to get only one side of the story, you should ask him his side of the story. It would be nice to know who you are since you know who I am. I sent you a PM, right?
Do you know the stories behind those Pak Vic invited to train else where? I do, directly from Pak Vic and Ibu Jane,Mas Ed Martin, Mas Gilbert Scholz, Guru Tim Lucas, and others, like John Ryan.
As for the Cimande Pusaka folks, they have had run-ins with other folks on this forum in the past. Some research is needed on your part.Simple history done by you would reveal a different story. That's the nasty thing about dealing with Pak Vic, he has this bad habit of keeping records, extremely good records, and having proof to back up what he says. I have seen some of it.

Ask yourself this question, why does Guru Dan Inosanto, that genius, that teacher of teachers, continue to train with Pak Vic if Pak Vic is such a bad person? And Ustad Dan is close to completing the whole art of Serak! Why does he choose Pak Vic? He knows the older Serak players that you mentioned!

Marcusknight, you are welcome to study Serak at any VDT tjabang. We believe strongly in Hormat, respect, loyalty, honesty, courtesy. Those who choose not to have these things in mind have been told to study elsewhere. It is Pak Vic's desire to propagate the art of Serak, teaching it fully to those who would simply lay aside their own agendas and egos, I know because I am one of those people. I have been treated very well by him and my seniors, they literally treat me like family (no, not like a cult!). I have been taught more than I could have expected, and you can be too. I am truly sorry you have to see this sort of thing. Our classes rarely touch on the subject of ex-students or other people's arts. Pak Vic genuinely loves the art he teaches, and would rather spend his time with us sharing this amazing art than bashing others.
Hormat,
Pembantu Guru Andrew Astle
Cortland New York

marcusknight

26-Feb-2006, 08:54 PM

Here's what I think is a fair question. Most of the negative comments I see here seem to reflect on the VDT organization's internal politics or its intellectual honesty. Neither one of these concerns seems to be germane to the combat effectiveness of the system, which is the main thrust of the article in question (or at lesat that's what I get from reaing it).

So is the effectiveness as combat system also in question here (that being what I mainly care about), or are we only discussing the politics/history/lineage as being in question? To me these are two very separate items.

serakmurid

26-Feb-2006, 09:00 PM

I think no one would dispute the ferocity and fearsomeness of the art. There is however, a number of lamentable disputes, both public and private, between the de Thouars brothers. These things have no bearing on the effectiveness of the art, more on how it is taught and to who. But the art of Serak is exactly what has been said about it.

MasJudt

26-Feb-2006, 09:08 PM

Serakmurid, you will find I bear Pak Vic no ill will, so please put down the Kool-aid. He's top-notch, and you could do a lot worse.

I find it very interesting that attacks on Pak Vic are kept posted, whereas a truthful, if crass statement about the 'teachings' of William Sanders is deleted. Of course, this board is moderated by that breed of smelly 'kool-aid' drinkers, so it is expected.

MasJudt

26-Feb-2006, 09:11 PM

MarcusKnight - if there is a VDT Acaemy near you - go right now and sign up. Pak Vic is very good at ensuring quality and consistency, and his program is very, very good. While many are no longer with him, no one denies the quality of his teaching - except those who could not make the bar.

serakmurid

26-Feb-2006, 09:13 PM

Point well taken MasJudt, point well taken. I noticed that myself, and it leaves me wondering.

MasJudt

26-Feb-2006, 09:14 PM

One last note - all of the methods you listed are good arts. But if simple, direct, and practical are words that appeal to you... go check out Serak.

RAMANA1

26-Feb-2006, 09:32 PM

marcus knight if you can train in the debordes method which has nothing to do with mande muda,do it!!guru richards style is very combative and your body will get strong..if you want the best understanding of serak,go to steve plinck..if you want politics and other nonsense-go train with pac vic..pac vic does not have the finite understanding of steve plinck,gross motor movement yes..and william sanders material is not for evreyone,but he does have alot to offer...one thing for sure marcus only a few of us have probably trained and or hosted each of these gentleman in for training personally..so iam giving you first hand info.......... :love:

marcusknight

26-Feb-2006, 10:00 PM

Thanks, Serakmudrid, Ramana1, Mas Judt & all who have chimed in. I enjoy the differing points of view. My interest, first & foremost, is in training something that works for street encounters.

Serakmudrid--I sent you a PM & e-mail.

Mas Judt-- "simple, direct & practical"--you nailed what I am looking for.

Ramana1--Thank you for the feedback on the DeBordes method. Yes, I'm aware he does not teach Mande Muda. I wrote "Mande Muda/Harimau DeBordes method" because the class I'm looking at is a 2 -hr class incorporating both Herman Suwanda's Mande Muda style & the DeBordes Harimau Minangkabau.

If you've had diect experience with Richard Crabbes De Bordes, could I ask you to elaborate a little on it?

Gajah Silat

27-Feb-2006, 12:05 AM

I see this too has degenerated to 'internal' politics, which seems to happen with most threads. :rolleyes:

I am so glad that I do not train in one of these more mainstream competitive styles that seem to be so intent on getting one over on the other. :rolleyes:

Long live 'backyard Silat'. :D

serakmurid

27-Feb-2006, 12:35 AM

Yeah I know- bummer ain't it? Sorry. All I wanted to do was have people read an interesting article about Serak in Inside Kung Fu. I wish there were no politics in Serak, just like I wish there were no politics in JKD. *sigh*

Ular Sawa

27-Feb-2006, 02:01 AM

I do hate the politics in the art. I read the article and found it interesting. However, even the article was not without politics.

marcusknight

27-Feb-2006, 02:21 AM

In an odd way, this reminds me of the time I have spent in CMA. My background has mainly been in the the Chinese Internal Arts of Taijiquan, Xingyiquan & Baguazhang.

Some years ago, I became aware of an internal arts teacher in a neighboring city by the name of John Painter. Anyone reading this who has a background somewhat similar to mine may know the name & may also know him to be a controversial figure in the realm of Chinese internal methods. Much of the internet chatter that I happened upon regarding Shirfu Painter centered upon arguments such as, "he made up his lineage", "can't prove what he says about his teacher", "he's not teaching authentic internal arts", "i caught him in a lie once,"---blah, blah, blah. Ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

I grew curious about Shirfu Painter's training methods after seeing him post in a forum. With much skepticism (stemming from all that I had been exposed to), I e-mailed him with a barrage of questions. The response I received was frank, courteous and open--answering my several questions & inviting me to come meet him at his Kwoon. Intrigued, I accepted his invitation & made the 1-hr drive to his school the following Saturday. When I arrived, a Xingyi class was just starting.

For an hour I observed the class--then observed the following "basic self-defense" class infused with Bagua, Xingyi, Taiji techniques & principles for another hour. What I found were classes that stressed the understanding & application of principles that were rigorously drilled into the students. I saw repetition of a few techniques clearly explained and demonstrated. And (horrors!) I saw these drills being performed on less than compliant opponents using sucker-punches, roundhouse punches etc.

The result? I signed up for a couple of his classes & never regretted doing so. I stopped going only because my work schedule made a 2-hr commute next to impossible. He never proved his lineage, system lineage, etc to me nor did he need to. The efficacy of the system spoke for itself.

Give me something that I can use to protect myself & others that may be with me from a real, savage, violent attack & I will gladly train in it leaving the politics, history & lineage questions to the lineage queens who would rather wage internet fast-typing kung-fu battles than put in serious training.

Ular Sawa

27-Feb-2006, 02:37 AM

In that case, you probably can't lose with Silat. It's very effective and a good workout too.

Ashton

01-Mar-2006, 01:40 AM

I like your thoughts on training marcusknight. I'm more of an FMA guy, but I'm developing an interst in Silat too.

Hey, by reading your posts I think we might be near the same area. Could you either PM with the info on the Serak school that you found or post it here? I'd like to see if its something I can check out.

Ashton

marcusknight

01-Mar-2006, 04:38 AM

Ashton,

I am in the far north Denton, Tx area. None of these schools are "in my neighborhood" but I'm more than willing to do a little driving for good training.

The link for the Serak school is the following:

http://www.crowsmartialarts.com/curriculum.php

I don't know too much about this school or the instructor, yet. It appears that he is a long-time student of Dan Inosanto and teaches several arts, but is very excited about the Serak in particular. Maybe some others on this board that might be more fmailar with this school or instructor can give you (and me) some feedback.

Hope this is of help.

Marcus

Tuankaki

02-Mar-2006, 06:44 PM

I read the article. Cool! The article mentions the Serak Museum. How is the museum coming? It is probably ready for for visitors by now. An update would be great.

Steve Perry

04-Mar-2006, 08:28 AM

Selamat, All --

The wrangling in Silat Sera(k) branches has gone on for a long time, and I'm not here to fan those flames. Well, not much.

I did write a letter to the editor of Inside Kung Fu after I read the April '06 article by one of Pak Vic's, students to point out what I saw as an error.

There is no record anywhere that Bapak Sera ever used the terms "base, angle, and leverage." Very little about Bapak Sera can be verified, including where he was from, when he was born, and which foot was clubbed. Yep, people have written things about him, but most of it is conjecture.

Some of it is flat-out made up.

The concept of "base, angle, and leverage" as such is Maha Guru Stevan Plinck's. Before he started using it, there is no record of anybody else in any other branch of Sera(k) having done so. The first recorded mention of it is in a video Guru Plinck did for Paladin press. The first written instance of it was in the Tom Clancy novel Net Force, and I know because I put in there. That was nine years ago and nobody has produced any earlier in-print mention of the concept. That's because they can't.

Several of Pak Vic's former gurus, when queried about it, either had no idea of what I was talking about at all, or got it wrong.

I don't mind that other people borrow the terminology, nor does Guru Plinck, but we would like to see credit given where it is due.

Steve Perry

04-Mar-2006, 09:04 AM

Mas Judt,

Pak Vic genuinely loves the art he teaches, and would rather spend his time with us sharing this amazing art than bashing others.
Hormat,
Pembantu Guru Andrew Astle
Cortland New York

Selamat, Guru Astle --

Perhaps this is the case these days; however, it wasn't always so, and Pak Vic isn't the only person who keeps excellent records. I have emails from him going back almost ten years, along with postings on various webpages, interviews in magazines, and if he has mellowed in his old age, he certainly spent his share of time bashing others along the way.

And yeah, I've talked to him, too.

We stopped talking when he told me I was destroying the art of Silat Sera(k) if I didn't wear a sarong to class, and that those of us in Stevan Plinck's lineage were essentially practicing silat-lite, because Maha Guru Plinck hadn't learned the real stuff as Pak Victor himself had.

I found this odd, since they both had the same primary teacher.

And more oddly, when some of the booted-out senior gurus from Pak Vic's tjabang dropped round our workouts, they didn't have anything we didn't have. Not to mention that this teacher-come-lately-stuff contradicts earlier statements out there in print.

I've also talked to Pendekar Paul, though not since he became ill, and corresponded with a host of other seniors in various Sera lineages, and according to them, and what I personally know, there is much in Pak Vic's history of the art that is revisionist. Things that none of them (or us) ever heard of until recently.

Anybody ever find a mention of Pak Vic's original art and teacher in silat in Java earlier than, say, five or six years ago? None of his gurus or fellow students under Pendekar Paul have heard about such. His older brother Willem, living there at the time, laughed at the idea.

Pak Vic has contradicted himself in print many times. I have some great examples about who the pendekar is or isn't, who is qualified to teach the art and who isn't, and a bunch of others. This is why he gets flak -- if you say one thing on Monday, then do a one-eighty on Tuesday, you can understand how there might be a problem with perception.

When somebody puts something out there for the world to see, it can come back to bite 'em.

If you are going to champion someone, best you know what you are getting into.

Khilap

06-Mar-2006, 11:25 PM

Despite all it is a very effective Style. All I Know is that it work in the street or anywhere. I highly recommend training With Victor de Thouars or any of the de Thouars. Oh Yeah! Willem has been learning since he was 6 years-old. My teacher's teacher trained with him(not under him) when Willem was in his 30's. Good old-fashion training! Beat the crap out of each other.

serakmurid

07-Mar-2006, 08:43 PM

Steve,
Obviously I am not as well connected as you are and I do not go back with Pak Vic too many years. What I can do is report out of my own experience with him and other people in organization/lineage.
Again, Pak Vic has been nothing but decent, fair and friendly to me and many others in his aliran. I have enjoyed and benefited greatly from what he has taught me. I learned vastly more about Serak from him than I ever expected to. Pak Vic has gone, time and time again, the extra mile for his students. He has done much for us, his students, he did not have to. In fact, he has agreed to come up to see me and my students this Spring, when he is extremely busy.
I am not new to martial arts. (See www.ewmaa.com for my past lineage, under "Curriculum", I believe.) I possess a good BS detector when it comes to martial arts. And I can say with certainty that Mas Roen Serak is not BS. The Mas Roen phases I am learning now are excellent, and in many ways provide advantages over the superb Mas Djut phases. Strange if the man did not exist, that would make Pak Vic a genius. Ask the folks at the Santa Cruz Silat collective, Roberto, Choate, Gielen, they all got to Phase 6,7,8 with Pak Vic, they will confirm it. Unless they are unwilling to give an unbiased assessment of the Mas Roen material!
Which brings me to another interesting item: Pentjak Silat Soempat. This was the creation of Pak Tisari Mardjoeki, Pak Vic's childhood Serak teacher. (Perhaps Willem remembers Dhaka Mardjoeki, Pak Tisari's son). This an amazing weapon art. It has its own jurus, Pantjar, sambuts, etc. Sifu Ray Crow, who has a website, has gotten fairly far into it, would be a good source to ask about Soempat. But if Pak Tisari never did Serak, then what? This excellent art is yet another creation of Pak Vic's?
Guru Tim Lucas, who teaches in Erie, PA, has been with Pak Vic since the 80's. Guru Dan Inosanto trained with Pak Vic's older brother for 13 years then left to train with Pak Vic. Surely someone of Guru Dan's genius would of quit the VDT by now if something were truly amiss. Guru Horacio, Pak Vic's lineage holder, is now studying Phase 9 and 10, why hasn't he discovered that Pak Vic's curriculum is a bunch of baloney yet? And I could list many more great martial artists that have progressed far with Pak Vic.

I only wish to present the positives of Pak Vic amidst all the bashing others are doing on this forum. Obviously, I can not speak for Pak Vic or others who have been in the art for a very long time. But I can talk about what he has been like since I started with him.

The "four seasons" are a yearly cyclical training methodology not some mystical woo-woo (thanks Todd for that!) or astrology. Enough with the thinly veiled bashing disguised as speculation.

PG Andrew

Tuankaki

07-Mar-2006, 09:35 PM

Ask the folks at the Santa Cruz Silat collective, Roberto, Choate, Gielen, they all got to Phase 6,7,8 with Pak Vic, they will confirm it. Unless they are unwilling to give an unbiased assessment of the Mas Roen material!I do not comment on the specifics of what I have been shown in any art the name of which I cannot utter(TM). I have studied Martial Arts with all 3 U.S.A. deThouars brothers, Guru Bob Vanatta, Dr. Andre, and Guru Stevan Plinck.

I also -solely and exclusively- trained a student to Guru Muda ranking in the VDT system a couple of years ago, buoyed by the patience and grace of his classmates. I read on this thread that he is now your "Senior" in that system. Good fit for all concerned. At our school we practice Dutch-Indo Fu(TM), and have great relations with the senior students from every line that we care about.

So again, (and on a more positive note, as you suggest) how's that Serak(TM) museum coming along? Must be ready for visitors by now....

serakmurid

07-Mar-2006, 09:57 PM

*Sigh* That article is a year old- Dave Cater apologised for taking so long. Plus he (D.Cater) edited it. As for the museum, well, not there yet, that's true. I think I know who you are, sir, we have spoken on another forum awhile ago.
Sarcasm- doesn't it avoid the real issues?
I met that Guru Muda at the ROF last year, and excellent Serak player, he taught me much in that time I spent with him and Guru Tim Lucas after hours.

Steve Perry

07-Mar-2006, 10:57 PM

[FONT=Courier New][QUOTE=serakmurid]Steve,
I possess a good BS detector when it comes to martial arts. And I can say with certainty that Mas Roen Serak is not BS. The Mas Roen phases I am learning now are excellent, and in many ways provide advantages over the superb Mas Djut phases. Strange if the man did not exist, that would make Pak Vic a genius. Ask the folks at the Santa Cruz Silat collective, Roberto, Choate, Gielen, they all got to Phase 6,7,8 with Pak Vic, they will confirm it. Unless they are unwilling to give an unbiased assessment of the Mas Roen material!

I don't recall saying that what Pak Vic teaches is But attend:

Back when we were still talking, I got the curriculum for the first two phases, the Mas Djut and Mas Rhoen phases -- these were posted on Pak Vic's email group. He wasn't giving out the Bapak Sera stuff in public.

Most of what was listed in the "intermediate and advanced" Rhoen phase and supposedly not in the Mas Djut line was stuff Stevan has been teaching us all along. I have to wonder, if Stevan was never exposed to this material as Pak Vic now says (which is different from what he used to say), how is it that Guru Plinck learned it? He just ... pull it out of the air?

I've worked out with guys who were learning the Mas Rhoen stuff. If they had anything I didn't have, they were experts at hiding it.

I also have a copy of the letter that Willem posted, in which he says that his younger brother made up Tongkat in his (Willem's garage), and that his "Sera" teacher in East Java was a -- bad word in Bahasa Indonesian -- that I thought meant "peanut," but actually means something more insulting. And that Victor learned his Sera from Paul, end of story.

I have never said that Pak Vic's material was bad. I said this sudden appearance of two new lineages is rather amazing, given that Pak Vic's public position on this was altogether different a few years ago.

In an email to me on 5 July 1999, Pak Vic said:

"And for sure Mas Djut had been the great force in putting the understanding of Jurus and platforms together and Pak Sera line is through him, no matter what Sanders and others had said."

No mention of Mas Rhoen. We all know he existed, but that isn't enough to put him into the new and improved lineage.

Same with whether of not Paul is the Pendekar of the system. Today, Pak Vic says he is not. He's said it to me directly, and in public.

A few years ago, not only did he say that Paul was the Pendekar, he pointed out the exact year, month, date, and hour that Paul got the title:

"September 25, 1970 two o'clock in the afternoon."

That's pretty damned specific, and either it happened or it didn't, not both.
So which is it?

Which brings me to another interesting item: Pentjak Silat Soempat. This was the creation of Pak Tisari Mardjoeki, Pak Vic's childhood Serak teacher. (Perhaps Willem remembers Dhaka Mardjoeki, Pak Tisari's son). This an amazing weapon art. It has its own jurus, Pantjar, sambuts, etc. Sifu Ray Crow, who has a website, has gotten fairly far into it, would be a good source to ask about Soempat. But if Pak Tisari never did Serak, then what? This excellent art is yet another creation of Pak Vic's?

I always found it very interesting that Pak Vic just happened to connect with a guru who just happened to know Sera along with his own stuff, all the way across the country from where most of them were teaching, and that he was able to take such extensive notes at the age of six (when he says he started training), and to learn it all by the time he was thirteen, when he left the country for good.

He now says that he learned Sera in the old country, and that Paul's later teachings didn't really add much to what he already knew.

Of course, maybe he was much smarter than the six-year-old I've known. I have samples of my writing at that age, I couldn't hold a candle to what he says he wrote, and I grew up to be a professional writer. I have a grandson who is nine who tests out at genius level, who learned how to read at age three, and when he was six, he couldn't write that well, either.

Every year for the last four or five Pak Mardjoeki was supposed to attend the Ring of Fire, bring his identical-Sera art, and put an end to all the questions. In 2003, 2004, and 2005, and now, supposedly, in 2006.

He hasn't made it yet, has he?

Guru Tim Lucas, who teaches in Erie, PA, has been with Pak Vic since the 80's. Guru Dan Inosanto trained with Pak Vic's older brother for 13 years then left to train with Pak Vic. Surely someone of Guru Dan's genius would of quit the VDT by now if something were truly amiss. Guru Horacio, Pak Vic's lineage holder, is now studying Phase 9 and 10, why hasn't he discovered that Pak Vic's curriculum is a bunch of baloney yet? And I could list many more great martial artists that have progressed far with Pak Vic.

Yes, there are people who have learned from Pak Vic, no argument. I didn't say it was a bunch of baloney. I just maintain that my teacher knows as much about Sera as any of the second-generation teachers, and that includes Victor.

I have a problem with some of the latter-day changes I see blossoming that have come out of left field. All the people who have been kicked out, some of whom certainly put in the time and effort and years of loyalty so that saying they couldn't cut it is insulting. Bob Vanatta? Please.

I used to have knock-down-drag-out discussions with some Pak Vic's senior gurus in which they defended him, parroting everything that he said, loyal to the bone. And for their reward, he cut them loose.

And one day, these new lines ... appeared, poof! nobody had ever heard of them save Pak Vic, *nobody.* And with this revelation, Stevan Plinck who, before, had been considered Victor's peer by Pak Vic himself, was now, suddenly, only adept in the simple, basic Mas Djut material? Silat-lite. Good enough, but not the Real Deal(tm).

Please excuse me if I find that unconvincing.

From the same interview by Gartin, Victor speaking:

"Besides Pendekar Paul, two persons have completed the system of Silat Serak who reside in the United States. Myself and Stevan Plinck who now resides in the state of Washington."

That's not what he says now. What happened? When you hold contradictory positions that reside on opposite sides of the circle, one can be right, the other wrong, or both can be wrong, but both can't be right. A is not non-A.

This is the main problem I have, the at-odds contradictions that keep popping up. Revisionist history that airbrushes out old faces.

I only wish to present the positives of Pak Vic amidst all the bashing others are doing on this forum. Obviously, I can not speak for Pak Vic or others who have been in the art for a very long time. But I can talk about what he has been like since I started with him.

And I won't argue that. What I do point out is that when you say one thing yesterday and the complete opposite thing today, your credibility is apt to seem, well, less than credible.

I am not a guru, I don't claim any expertise in Sera past a basic understanding, but I have been talking and listening to these folks for ten years. And my detector works pretty well, too.

Do yourself a favor. Call up Ron Miller, Mike Roberto, Bob Vanatta, Chas Clements, Steve Gartin, guys like that. Ask them for their side of this story.

tellner

08-Mar-2006, 04:21 AM

I do not comment on the specifics of what I have been shown in any art the name of which I cannot utter(TM). I have studied Martial Arts with all 3 U.S.A. deThouars brothers, Guru Bob Vanatta, Dr. Andre, and Guru Stevan Plinck.
Just out of curiosity, who are you? I know most of Guru Plinck's students here and elsewhere. As far as I know there aren't any in Santa Cruz. Rennie came up to Vancouver once, but that was about a decade ago.

Tuankaki

08-Mar-2006, 07:03 AM

Sarcasm- doesn't it avoid the real issues?
I met that Guru Muda at the ROF last year, and excellent Serak player, he taught me much in that time I spent with him and Guru Tim Lucas after hours.It doesn't intend to avoid the "real issues" as you call them. The sarcasm is directed at the stupid notion that what one names as the system they practice is the be-all and end-all of what they have, or what it's worth. What, in your mind are, "the real issues"?

What I have read thus far has only to do with the naming conventions for the information, and that those naming conventions may be nothing more - and therefore are suspect, because if they don't illuminate the art/system, then it begs the question- why are they there, especially when they didn't exist 5 years ago? THAT's the "real issue" on this thread as I read it, since you asked.

I've only responded because you suggested that folks from my generation might lend credence and authenticity to your naming/lineage convention, by validating the information we received as attached to those names. I refuse to comment on the specifics of what I learned, and I do not call it Serak(TM). That is not a naming convention that I am "allowed" to use. Why on Earth would I invoke "Rhoen", or "Djoet", or any of those descriptors in discussing my brand of Dutch-Indo Fu?

As far as I have read, there are no other "issues" brought forth here. I do not claim any lineage as relates to what you study or promote, so do not invoke your terms and lingo on whatever you may have HEARD that I have or have not learned (since we have never met). I do not believe that Guru Vanatta, Chris Geilen, Ron Miller, Jerry McCleary, or Mike Choate (46 years' of VDT student history) are interested in supporting your point of view either. You are on your own here, with the full support of my former student (glad he shows well) and the other "seniors" that you cite here.

For the record, Guru Bob Vanatta is my direct senior, and Guru Plinck is his direct senior. I am available to answer any questions dating back to 1997, and Guru Bob has told me that he is available to answer any questions dating back to 1982 (he obtained his Black Belt in Tongkat in 1986, which he wore in the Asian Expo video of that same year, which also included Guru Plinck as Guru Paul's top student).

Tuankaki

08-Mar-2006, 07:36 PM

Serakmurid,

It occurred to me that you may be feeling ganged up on on this thread, and I'd like to suggest a different motivation behind the posts here that are at odds with yours. I think there is a way in which you can support your teacher and tjabang brothers, and not leave yourself open to what you perceive, and in a couple of cases, IS "bashing".

When you spout a party line with the detail that you have here and are not personally aware of the 360 degree history of your group, I think Steve is suggesting that you can either tone it down somewhat, or at least check into things a bit.

He is saying this for 2 reasons which occur to me. One, some Guru Plinck students (especially the ones that follow and participate on the various internet forums) have put up with a lot of undeserved ridicule by your teacher, from long before you showed up on the scene, and they're sore. Others too. So they are likely to take it out on you.

But two, the last 20 year history has shown that the odds are that some day you will find yourself in a world that largely - if not universally - rejects the dogma that you are putting out there, and that you personally will have credibility problems in the post-Serak(TM) world. As a consequence, you just won't have as much FUN as your hard work might otherwise have entitled you to.

I suggest that you can be loyal to your teacher and tjabang, and even help promote them, without necessarily exposing yourself too much with all the lineage lingo. This lineage lingo has been woven into your understanding of the movement, which understandably makes it difficult for you to talk about without heading down the slippery slope. And unfortunately the more heavily lineage-lingo-laden the articles become, the harder it is for you to promote while avoiding the credibility gap in which many believe you will find yourself.

So for me personally, I'm just trying to help you out a bit here, from experience, and also not be drawn into defending the point of view that you've put out here. We do Dutch-Indo Fu, and want to support and promote good martial artists whose knowledge is available without strings attached.

All this, "He's my teacher, not your teacher", "This guy's in, this guy's out", "You can't use that word, we used it first", "All hail Euclid!" ( I laughed my ass off on that one Bobbe) stuff is so tired. Fewer and fewer people are going to care as time goes by. Why make yourself a target over it....

Bobster

08-Mar-2006, 08:35 PM

Glad you liked it, Tuankaki! I try to make my points relevant to real-world situations.

Serakmurid, I have avoided posting anything on Pak Vic since I left his organization. Anything I say will come across as hostile, as would most of the words of former Serakkies. I assume that the private Serak forum is still up? I know what is said there, and I know how easy it is to join in the crowd without investigating your motives. Believe me, some of my closest friends in Silat today are people I bashed on the Serak forum, and there are some VERY hard lessons learned from those times. I have nothing to gain by tearing down Pak Vic, and although I know who you are I don't bear any ill feelings toward you. I have my own identity somewhere else, and the current affairs of the Serak org. don't interest me, even for petty bashing. But I DO have firsthand eyewitness experience, especially with the last group that was evicted. And I remember Horacio, he & I trained together at a private session that I paid Pak Vic for. And I am in touch with/friends with most of the former students (there are some I don’t care for, so I don’t bother trying to connect with them) and we were all there together. Steve Perry writes very knowledgably about the things visiting Serak students have said to & about his teacher. I was in the room when Victor said these things to the students (and myself), as well as countless others.

So when I choose to speak about it, you should choose to listen.

You are being hit from several sides at once, and it seems confusing to you that so many people have it out for your teacher and your style. The people on this forum aren't "out to get you", but you are dealing with the law of probability: Victor has "cleaned house" (for whatever reason) about twice every year and a half for, what, 10-15 years now? There's nobody around from even MY time, and I wasn't that long ago!! This fact, coupled with the fact that the online Silat world is very small indeed will almost guarantee that you will run into not one but SEVERAL former students. And let's be honest here, Victor has never really said "Well done, thou good and faithful murid" to anyone who left his system, now has he? Lotta hurt feelings out there, and many of these people have said the same thing you are saying now. They see the words that they themselves spoke, and it grates on them, because they remember what they were thinking & doing when they said it.

I appreciate your trying to bring order out of chaos, Serakmurid. You still have pride in your art & your teacher and it shows in your posts. But, to quote the bible, be sure that your sins will find you out. Not that I am religious, but I mean that in the context of “The past will bite you dead on the ass”. You are becoming the focal point of people who were wronged by Victor because you are waving a flag for him publicly. Kicking students out of his school is the very LEAST that Pak Vic has done to others. I mentioned Steve Perry’s point earlier, the things that were said both to the face of & behind the back of Mande Muda students have cultivated a multi national feeling of animosity toward your teacher. I could mention Sanders, and start another shitstorm. I could say “Ron Miller” and we could have a barrage between us. I could list names like Bob Vanetta & Chris Gielen, or titles like Maha Guru Muda or “Library of Serak”, and see who pops out of the woodwork. But I say these things so that YOU understand why repercussions happen when you post things like what a great style you train, how cool Pak Vic is & how the structures of the system are like manna from heaven. Remember who you are speaking to. Don’t assume that there is any sense of “Keluarga”, there isn’t. Victor has strewn ill feelings and sentiment all over the world for the past 20-30 years. Many are already shaking their heads as they read your words, thinking; “It’s only a matter of time”. And they have every reason to do so.

On another private forum I belong to, one poster mentioned that they wished the DeThouars had at least a passing interest in the damage they were doing to the Silat world & murids. This is probably both the most truthful and generous statement that could be made about ANY of the brothers at this point. Blunt can come across or degenerate into sarcasm easily.

Serakmurid, I sincerely hope that you succeed in your style. There is nothing wrong with it. You personally are a better man than most who were under Victor and posted to public forums, myself included. But I hope that we don’t see you in another year or so, posting about feeling betrayed, scammed & ripped off. But you wouldn’t be the first, or even the 30th, if you did.

Bobster

08-Mar-2006, 09:37 PM

Question from Tellner earlier:

Just out of curiosity, who are you? I know most of Guru Plinck's students here and elsewhere. As far as I know there aren't any in Santa Cruz. Rennie came up to Vancouver once, but that was about a decade ago.

Todd, that's Andrew Astle, out of NY. He was coming up back when I was in the Serak organization, looks like he's made some headway.

Monyet Nakal

09-Mar-2006, 12:58 AM

Selamat,

I haven't posted anything on this forum for awhile now, and I'm pretty sure that I should not now as I'm uncertain whether I can do any good. When I first registered here it must have been during some sort of rare lull in the aggression and vitriol spitting because I thought I had found a resource where ideas were being freely shared and discussed about pentjak silat and (at that time) seemed to be free of the overt badmouthing, in-fighting and hearsay propagation that our family of arts have become so infamous for. It didn't take long for me to find out that I was wrong, and so even though I would occassionally pop back to see what was going on in here I did not wish to add any potential kindling to the flames by posting anything. However, I feel an obligation to post and at least weather a bit of the aggression Mas Andrew has opened himself up to and been solely shouldering simply by sharing information I'm sure he thought this group might actually be interested in.

Well, it seems that practitioners and students all styles and schools of pentjak silat are welcome to promote their art.. with the exception of Pak Vic's. This whole thread started out as Mas Andrew merely trying to inform everyone that there was a silat oriented article in a major publication that he thought might interest this group (and yes, I'm sure there was a small amount of pride behind his motivation that said article featured the group he was a part of but who among us would not be guilty of the same thing) for this he was almost immediately slammed, challenged and accused of proliferating lies. Simply for mentioning the article. The initial attack snowballed and pretty much became a beat-down with many participants and only one defender. Such is the way of the internet and I am not naive about such things. I realize everyone wants to have their feeling heard, but to force a person into the postition of defending the actions of others and then bring folks out of the woodwork to press the attack and pick apart everything that you forced him to declare just seems a bit cheap. Mr. Astle did not write this article and it is unfair to try to hold him accountable for anything said in it. If you really feel the need to vent than might I suggest you privately take it to the source. There is no air to be cleared here. If you feel the need to question or inform Mr. Astle or anyone here regarding the private affairs of their organizations, in the future might I suggest private messengering them instead of hijacking a thread to publically challenging or patronizingly educate them. This stuff might make good soap operas, but its lousy martial arts.

Its obvious to everyone that Maha Guru Victor is a controversial figure in pentjak silat circles as are most of his brothers, but whatever your personal feelings about him or any of the brothers are it cannot be denied that they have done tremendous service to promote the Indonesian martial arts in America and even if you have negative thoughts about what they may or may not have done, the arts they teach are rock solid so to imply that there is no value to what can be learned from Pak Vic would be quite incorrect.

RAMANA1, forgive me since I am not able to tell who you are so I am forced to make assumptions, but its obvious that you or someone close to you has a personal agenda at stake here. Might I suggest that there are subtler ways of getting your points across that might not come across as so personally biased (and i know that its a cheap-shot on my part, for which I really do sincerely apologize, but you might want to look up the definition of the word 'finite' and edit your post accordingly.) If the affront was suffered by you than I sympathize with you but humbly suggest that it might be better to learn from your experiences and move beyond whatever happened. Aggressively trolling on internet forums cannot be as cathartic as you hope it will. If the bad experience was suffered instead by someone close to you than I would ask you to not perpetuate negative hearsay, (just as you are attacking Mas Andrew for your perception that he is perpetuating hearsay to further some sort of personal agenda on his part. Although, some might merely call that "marketing") there is far too much of this going on in our art and pentjak silat in general. Surely this is only having a negative effect on our community. Just because someone is not choosing to voluntarily air dirty laundry in public doesn't necessarily mean he is covering it up. Perhaps he simply does not wish to comment on subjects that he does not have first-hand knowledge of. Forcing him to attempt to do so and then attacking him for it is bad form in any game.

TuanKaki, it is evident that you wish to maintain your anonymity so I will respect that sir, but may I say that it is nice to see you make a rare appearance to this forum. I feel that the organization lost a great source of knowldge and a lot of its personality when you left Guru and I wish you the best in your present and future endeavors. I wish that the circumstances of your postings were more positive as I always enjoy hearing your take on things. the same sentiment I extend to you Mr. Perry, I always find your posts informative and insightful whatever the topic may be.

I have stated repeatedly in my posts that I do my best to stay out of the "politics" our art is infamous for and bear no ill-will towards any other individuals or organizations. I recognize that odds are anything I hear from someone is only one side of any story and, as such, choose not to repeat it, especially publicly. I sincerely hope that this post is not taken as an attack at anything other than the petty squabblings and innuendo that incessantly permeate Indonesian martial arts in the west which I feel are the main culprit in our continued division. As I have previously stated, I truly hope for a day where we can all find a venue to set aside past differences and freely share ideas. I felt there was the potential to take babysteps towards that day in this forum, but I can tell that its not ready to start that path. I feel that there is a tremendous amount that I could learn from everyone on this forum, and I hope to someday but until we get to that point I'm going to have to continue to limit my participation here. I just don't have the energy to constantly rail against actions that continue to sabotage that hope. I'm not hypersensitive to differences of opinion and can usually learn a lot from a good debate. (for instance I think its unfortunate that a lot of Kiai Carita's threads became about perceived personal attacks as I thought many of them started out with many good points beings shared) However, threads like this one just border on bullying.

I hope some sense can be made from this stream of conciousness rant and that it is taken in the spirit it is intended. (and all typos are forgiven as well)

Best wishes to you all.

Steve Perry

09-Mar-2006, 01:53 AM

However, threads like this one just border on bullying.

With all due respect, my intent was not bullying at all, but education. I spoke to the IKF article because I have specific knowledge that part of that article was in error. If the words "base, angle, and leverage" ever came out of Bapak Sera's mouth, nobody on this planet has any evidence to back that up. I can show where I first heard them.

More, when the cheerleading for Pak Vick started, I felt the need to point out that the error I saw was but one of several, and a pattern of such over the years.

Did anybody hear me say that Pak Vic's art was no good? Nope. Never said that. That he had no skill, he hadn't turned out any good students?

You didn't hear that, either.

Did you hear me say that there appear to be a lot of contradictions in what he says about the art, its history, and who is qualified to teach it? Oh, yeah, I said that. And any place you can point out where I was wrong, I'll happily apologize for it.

Guru Astle doesn't know this stuff, and he certainly isn't going to find it out from active members of Pak Vic's tjabang. There are other sides to the story. So I was telling him to check around before he said things about which he didn't have enough knowledge. If you are going to be defender of the faith, you need to know it well enough to counter attacks on it.

If can't stand the heat, then you should stay out of the kitchen.

The genesis of this for me began when Pak Vic and his then-senior gurus began bad-mouthing my instructor. Until that point, I had let a lot of stuff slide, but in his attempt to move from Paul's shadow, Pak Vic stepped over the line. My teacher just shrugs it off. But I can be irritated for him, and I was and am.

If I shoot my mouth off and what I say is wrong, I should not be surprised if somebody who knows better calls me on it. That's how it works. Show me where I got it wrong, I'll bow and offer my apologies.

We're not talking innuendo here, but words from Pak Vic's mouth to my ear, or into public print, be it books, magazines, webpages or whatever.

If you are going to claim that the moon is made of green cheese, best come back from your trip there with a nice hunk of it to show me. There is nothing I've said in this thread that I can't back up with evidence, and anybody who wants it has but to ask.

Others who have spoken up also have first-hand experience from which they can offer their views.

What you'd dismiss as petty bickering isn't so petty for number of people who put a lot of time and energy into an art, only to be summarily tossed out for what certainly doesn't seem to be sufficent reason.

If Pak Vic didn't want this kind of scenery, then he shouldn't have started down this road. And if people want to stand up and talk about what a hale fellow-well-met that he is, certainly they can. But not everybody is of that belief, and disagreement is, after all, what makes a horse race, isn't it?

Tuankaki

09-Mar-2006, 02:48 AM

TuanKaki, it is evident that you wish to maintain your anonymity so I will respect that sir, but may I say that it is nice to see you make a rare appearance to this forum. I feel that the organization lost a great source of knowldge and a lot of its personality when you left Guru and I wish you the best in your present and future endeavors. I wish that the circumstances of your postings were more positive as I always enjoy hearing your take on things. Thank you for the kind words. I take it from your post, that you were not among the 4 or 5 revisionists engaged in the smear campaign which ensued upon my departure. As for my "anonymity" such that it is, I thought I made it pretty easy to find out who I am, for anyone interested enough to click the mouse once or twice. That said, "who I am" pales in comparison to who (and what) I am promoting, which is the main reason I am on this forum as of late. Hormat rolls uphill, as I think you have demonstrated. I'm now focused on a positive vision for a post (TM) world in the family of arts we do. There is lots of garbage to take out, but I prefer to leave that to those with that motivation. I just want to move forward. Thanks again for the kind nod.

RAMANA1

10-Mar-2006, 02:51 AM

great posts steve perry,good observations bobbe,...tuankaki-aka m.roberto-i hope your training goes well with steve plinck..hes a good guy..dear andrew the mas roen jurus are done with the opposite of your lead,genius is doing not b.s ing..what you can do inside you can do outside,what you can do high you can do low,one lead to another,thats not genius ,its called training.. :woo:

RAMANA1

10-Mar-2006, 03:06 AM

monyet nakal---iam just one of the many that spent lots of money on vdt lies..no iam no longer angry,just a little wiser.i agree what bobbe had to say,do the dethouars even acknowledge the damage that theyve done over the years?alot of people went down that road with serak after the famous dan inosanto article claiming that it was such a deadly art..i guess the big question is why as martial artists we keep looking for some missing element or some new art or technique..look up ramana--its all about self realization.maybe we need to look inside ourselves and not continue to look for some guru with all the so-called answers..evreyone on this page is a martial artists with his own answers,his or her own reality...good luck on your own journey-- :Angel:

Orang Bayangan

10-Mar-2006, 03:12 AM

I take it from your post, that you were not among the 4 or 5 revisionists engaged in the smear campaign which ensued upon my departure.

Don't you find this just the smallest bit hypocritical?

When you were Vic's fair haired boy you gleefully attacked everyone who he pointed you at, you smeared people who you had never even met, and you were a pivotal part of the rumor mill that was putting out that Stevan Plinck was deficient in his Silat. Everyone who has spent time on the public and private forums and mailing lists has seen this.

Now you complain because you were treated in the same manner that you treated others?

If you were still with Vic wouldn't you still be raking his "enemies" across the coals (behind their backs)?

So now you try to hitch your wagon To Guru Plinck's star. The trouble is that your past is still with you.

marcusknight

10-Mar-2006, 03:39 AM

I'm a raw newbie to the Silat world. I find it sad to see that the same politics that are prevalent in my "homeworld" of Chinese Martial Arts are alive & well in the world of Silat.

Having no axe to grind, I ended up sending a PM to both Mr Perry & Mr Astle. Mr Perry was nice enough to send me a speedy reply to the issues I asked him about. By the same token, Mr Astle took much time & energy in sending me multiple e-mails answering my questions regarding the art of Serak (no politics lest anyone froth at the mouth---just technical questions).

Personally, I'm just looking for an effective Silat system to add to my repertoire. I could care two pins about lineages, pedigrees, past feuds, grand poo-bahs or people's hurt feelings over past wrongs. I'm interested in two things: 1) Does the system accrue the tangible combative benefits that it claims and 2) Does it fill a persoanl need for me. All else to me is superfluous.I've narrowed down my choices to Serak & the Mande Muda/Harimau classes that are in my area.

Personally, I'm grateful to Mr Astle for having posted this thread regarding the article. I purchased it and found it interesting.

Respect to Monyet Nakal. Thank you for your post. A true breath of fresh air.

Bobster

10-Mar-2006, 03:48 AM

Marcusknight, let me tell you straight out: There are no lack of fools in ANY system. This thread alone could teach you that, whichever part you believe. Go to a school & get your hands dirty, that's my advice. Look for a teacher worthy of the name, not the art. A good teacher in Yoga trumps a sucky teacher in Silat every day. Don't just "sit in on a class", pay for a month (or three) and check things out. If there is reason to be suspect, you'll see it in the first few months. If they make you sign a contract for longer than that, RUN FOR IT.

That's the best advice I could give you. Hope it helps.

Steve Perry

10-Mar-2006, 08:26 AM

I'm a raw newbie to the Silat world. I find it sad to see that the same politics that are prevalent in my "homeworld" of Chinese Martial Arts are alive & well in the world of Silat.

I understand your distress, I find a lot in the art is sad. I have to disagree with your comment that what you see is "politics." Nobody is trying to get elected to anything in this thread. Nothing devious or secretive here trying to improve my status. My teacher isn't looking for new students. I was offering the benefit -- such that it is -- of my experience in an art in which you are an admitted newbie. There are long-standing contentions here, and some of them are useful to know for a potential student.

Here's a simple, hypothetical question. Say that there are people who are outright frauds claiming to teach an art. How are you going to figure that out if you don't hear it from somebody who can tell the difference? As a newbie, you don't have the direct tools.

We have some of those. They don't know Sera from a saddle sore. Yet they have sold video tapes, done magazine articles, and claim to teach the art in their own schools. You know who they are? All the serious Sera players here do, from our branch of the tree or from Pak Vic's. One in particular we all agree on. (Though we didn't used to agree on him. He was the fair-haired boy of a particular style, put forth as the next big thing, praises sung to the sky. And then he did a little metaphorical back-stabbing.)

Would you like to start studying under somebody like that and a year or three down the line, find out he wasn't teaching you what you thought you were getting? That a lot of what he showed you might get you handed your head by somebody who really knew how to move? This is the real danger. Not that you get ripped off for your tuition -- but that you think you have a tool and if you try to use it, it will fold up like a cheap potmetal butter knife.

Personally, I'm just looking for an effective Silat system to add to my repertoire. I could care two pins about lineages, pedigrees, past feuds, grand poo-bahs or people's hurt feelings over past wrongs. I'm interested in two things: 1) Does the system accrue the tangible combative benefits that it claims and 2) Does it fill a persoanl need for me. All else to me is superfluous.I've narrowed down my choices to Serak & the Mande Muda/Harimau classes that are in my area.

But you should care. And you make my point, sir. You know the recipe for rabbit stew?

First, catch a rabbit ...

If you want useful advice about something you don't know, better to ask somebody who has the knowledge. Which is why you came here. And the first thing you have to do is determine, if you get two differing opinions, which, if either, is true.

From where I sit, if you get your knowledge of silat from a magazine article that a number of knowledgeable readers find amusing rather than factual, you do yourself a disservice. All that great stuff about Bapak Sera and his heritage, it's a great story.

Nobody can prove any of it. Much of it is pure conjecture. A lot of it doesn't make any historical sense at all, if you start to examine it with any kind of criticial eye. But -- how would you know that?

If I'm reading a detective novel and the hero, who is supposed to be a pistol expert and crack shot, shoves a clip into the butt of his revolver, I stop reading and put that one down. If the writer makes that kind of mistake about something I know, what kind of mistakes is he making about stuff I don't know? He can't be trusted.

If somebody lies to you about the weather, the time, and what color socks he is wearing, are you going to be disposed to believe him about more important stuff? Like, say, your life?

Because a thing is written down does not make it real, and certainly that includes my posting here. In any article on anything, the intent and bias of the writer needs be taken into account. You figure you'll get an objective account when the writer is a senior student of the man featured in the piece?

How do you determine who can tell you the truth? That's the trick. One way is to listen to opposite points of view, compare them, and see which seem to make the most sense to you. Then check them with others. That's one of the things this forum can do -- offer up different experiences and opinions.

Listen. Learn. Then go look for yourself.

You asked me a question about the art and I gave you as honest an answer as I could. I wouldn't be at all surprised if my response was on the opposite end of the spectrum from any you got from Guru Andrew. You have to decide which seems more valid. I'm guessing you've already made your mind up, but I hope you considered it with care.

Respect to Monyet Nakal. Thank you for your post. A true breath of fresh air.

I would love to agree with you, but I've seen the axe that Monyet Nakai carries and grinds, and the air wafting off the gory edge is anything but fresh. The old why-can't-we-all-just-get-along refrain sounds reasonable. It'd be great. I'd love it. Peace, love, and harmony, my old hippie ideals.

I'd be more disposed to believe it was heartfelt if I hadn't been on the receiving end of some mean-spiritied and untruthful comments from that part of town. Somebody who claims the high road but who got there by a short cut on the low road might be viewed with a certain amount of ... caution.

Which is what i'm trying to offer you.

You will do what you will, but my advice to you stands. Sera is a fine system, broad, deep, and effective. It's fairly simple, but that doesn't mean the same as "easy." I didn't know I'd been searching for it for thirty years until I found it. If I am so blessed, I intend to stay in it until I fall over dead. But if somebody tells you that you'll have enough of it in a few months to be street lethal against anybody with any kind skill, best you hang on to your wallet.

Good luck.

Monyet Nakal

10-Mar-2006, 12:45 PM

Mr.Perry,
With even greater due respect, you seem to be under the impression that my comments were directed solely at you. Let me assure you they were not. I attempted to single out TuanKaki and yourself in the attempt to discourage exactly that interpretation. I apologize if I achieved the opposite result. If I was attempting to address or single out any individual poster it would be the one who I perceived initially steered this thread towards its currently resulting and not originally intended direction.

I've read through this thread a few times and attempted to be open-minded about its contents and I honestly do not see any "cheerleading" or "flag-waving." I only saw an individual forced into attempting to defend himself, his teacher and his association from the "slings and arrows" of others with the best ammunition he had available (should we expect less from anyone else) whereas yourself and others seem to see an "hallelujah" choir blindly singing Pak Vic's incapacity to do any wrong.

I know Mas Andrew well enough to assure you that he does, in fact, "know his stuff" when it comes to the study of Serak, and if you and he had the opportunity to train together than I guarantee you that you could both gain much from the experience. If he is biased in his knowledge of recent social politics in specific tjabangs of the system, well I would submit that one only can quote from the books he has available to him, and if you really felt obliged to educate him from the perspective of other viewpoints that he might not normally be privvy to, well than might not a less public attempt to embarrass him served better? I freely admit that I should follow that self-same advice in regards to this post, but I also confess that I am not sure you would recieve my message were I to do so. (Perhaps that was your concern as well?)He did not post this thread positing as a trumpeting archon of Pak Vic's. If he is guilty of anything in this thread it would be that he was under the false impression that past, high-ranking students of Pak Vic's could set aside their personal feelings to give an unbiased commendation of Pak Vic and all that they have learned from him regarding the art of Serak. I would admit that this was an error on his part but not an unanticipatted one from anyone with the expected amount of zeal and customary hormat to his teacher. (Should we expect any less from you or any other person here?) All of the former seniors he listed are all tremendous martial artists and were there a competition I would put my money on any of them against any other competitors but they all have decisive personal reasons for leaving the organization as well and I don't need to see all sides of the story to know that one should not expect glowing accolades from any of them, but I also would not too harshly fault that desire in others.

You will note that he did not say anything to refute your stated primary reason for posting and that is, I would assume, because he has no personal, first-hand knowledege of who and when the exact terms "base, angle and leverage" were first created and again, with all due respect intended, I would suggest that neither do you (and believe me, I do not doubt your records on when the terms were first mentioned, merely the logistics on whether or not you were there when is was first conceived.) Personally whoever came up with the etymology behind the terms "base, angle and leverage" doesn't matter that much to me. the fundmentals of the structure seem so fundamental to the study of Serak that if, indeed, Guru Plinck did come up with that particular label (and even the rational behind it) then he does indeed deserve my kudos for his perception, but its incorporation into the system seems to me so intrinsic and to go so far beyond mere semantics that it seems unnecessary to participate in your argument other than beyond a personal allegiance or agenda. I am in no way saying this is dogma, and it certainly is not intended as a further challenge, I'm simply saying that to me it doesn't really matter who came up with it. I appreciate it for the understanding that it gives.

If you took my rumblings of "hearsay" and "innuendo" to apply to your posts than I do apologize for that as well. I am sufficiently aware of your history in the art.The message I was attempting to convey was not to dispute the veracity of any single post let alone yours (I am well aware that that I am ill-qualified to do so) but simply to question the *merit* of the direction taken by this entire thread in general. Other than to stand side-by-side with a brother, my wishes were, for the most part, more altruistic than simply the betterment of my own allegiances and I hope these posts can now be percieved with that intent in mind.

TuanKaki,
Not only was I not a part of any "revisionist smear campaign" instigated towards you or any individual who left at the time you did, but I was not even aware that there was any such campaign. I have, to some degree, learned from and trained with yourself and many of the seniors who left around the same point as yourself and I was personally disappointed to see the whole of you choose to leave as I felt I could have learned much more. Again, please accept my best wishes.

RAMANA1,
I'm not sure I know what to say to you sir, other than I am sorry for your perceived slights. In your desire to share your experiences don't you think it a bit unnecessary to challenge the experiences of others? After you challenged him, I believe Mas Andrew was simply trying to point out that the VDT organization is currently filled with lots of people who's experience differs from the that of yourself and others, many who have been there for quite a few years. Is it a perfect fit for everyobody? Certainly not, but I am not aware of anything that is. Pick any system or organization you want and I will submit that this simple caveat applies: "Your mileage may vary"

I am passingly familiar with the teachings of Ramana and 'self-enquiry' but in my, admittedly limited, underastanding of them, I fail to see how your earlier posts in this thread have served anything resembling those tenets.

As I said before, I recognize that we all have a strong desire to state our feelings and have our opinions displayed for all to appreciate, and I'm not opposed to healthy debate, but I also feel that anyone should be given the freedom to personally promote his system or organization here without feeling like he is going to be thrown to the wolves. Ideally it shouldn't take some forced sense of decorum to allow someone to say that "Mande Muda is the perfect system for me" or "I've learned a lot in my studies of Cimande Pusaka" without feeling he is going to have to back up everything he says with notarized testimony. I realize that a lot of people disagree with my instructor, but I don't feel its right that a man should get blind-sided, or accused of blind, zealous proselytizing just because his experience has been more positive than others. Mr. Astle's opinion is not wrong just because its different than yours folks, nor is it any less valid because he's been around a few less years than you.

Monyet Nakal

10-Mar-2006, 12:59 PM

I would love to agree with you, but I've seen the axe that Monyet Nakai carries and grinds, and the air wafting off the gory edge is anything but fresh. The old why-can't-we-all-just-get-along refrain sounds reasonable. It'd be great. I'd love it. Peace, love, and harmony, my old hippie ideals.

I'd be more disposed to believe it was heartfelt if I hadn't been on the receiving end of some mean-spiritied and untruthful comments from that part of town. Somebody who claims the high road but who got there by a short cut on the low road might be viewed with a certain amount of ... caution.

I have no doubt that you have "been on the receiving end of some mean-spirited and untruthful comments from that part of town" but they didn't come from my neighborhood and certainly not from my address. I feel that I have been cordial and open about my intentions here, maybe even to the point of possible rammifications in my own life, and I don't appreciate you publically writing my intents off or questioning my motives simply on the basis of guilt by association. You don't know me or my reasons for getting involved in or continuing to study this art so I will thank you not to imply that you have knowledge of my aims other than what I have been honest about. I'm not going to be so hubristic as to immediately infer that your analog about high roads and shortcuts is directed specifically at me, but I feel I should point out that I am not the one who felt compelled to post here because I had gore to grind off of my axe.

As I have previously stated I respect you and enjoy reading your posts whatever they pertain to but don't second guess my motives. I have given you no cause to here and you don't know me from elsewhere. You can consider them to be "pie in the sky" naivete and smugly wait for my other shoe to drop or doubt them entirely, but I would rather risk that disappointment and hope for an enviornment where I can potentially study my art in an open arena with many perspectives than use my talent and experience to perpetuate old schisms.

For what its worth I agree with the majority of the rest of the observations and advice you've given Mr. Knight, its very astute and well stated. If only you can deliver it without feeling the need to belittle me based soley on your keen insight to me from a single post and basic knowledge of my affiliations I would appreciate it more.

Tuankaki

10-Mar-2006, 05:28 PM

Don't you find this just the smallest bit hypocritical?

When you were Vic's fair haired boy you gleefully attacked everyone who he pointed you at, you smeared people who you had never even met, and you were a pivotal part of the rumor mill that was putting out that Stevan Plinck was deficient in his Silat. Everyone who has spent time on the public and private forums and mailing lists has seen this.

Now you complain because you were treated in the same manner that you treated others?

If you were still with Vic wouldn't you still be raking his "enemies" across the coals (behind their backs)?

So now you try to hitch your wagon To Guru Plinck's star. The trouble is that your past is still with you.First of all, let me thank you for all of your effort to register on this forum with an anonymous profile, to offer one post aimed at me. Makes me feel special.

I was never part of any such rumor, not pivotal, not at all. When you're in the room when your teacher starts spouting such things, it's usually best to keep quiet. Eventually I voted with my feet. The people I know and respect and care about what they think, are very clued in to the timing of my leaving. I had lots of things offered to me, and I rejected those things very early on, as anyone close to the situation(s) - which obviously doesn't include you - has known for a long time.

There are three specific times that I said things which were critical of others on Guru Victor's private forum. I remember what they were (especially because they pissed off some people), and I still stand behind those criticisms. Whoops, make that 4 things - I've been highly critical of Simonet's little maneuver.... him, I'll mention by name. None of those was aimed at Guru Plinck or his students.

Apparently Guru Bob, Jerry, Chris, Mike C., Ron, John, Jon, Chas, Steve G., Dr. Andre, my students, and yes even Guru Plinck, don't feel that I have any credibility problems on this front. And I'm not out promoting the 4 people I criticized in the past, nor do I care to mention them here, 'cept ol' Joe.

As for my motives and hitching of wagons and so forth, you've obviously had that one wrong from the get-go, and are obviously someone who is not in the know. Sorry you're sore, and thanks again for esteeming me with your very first post.

realitychecker

10-Mar-2006, 05:29 PM

Monyet,

I mean Ed Martin, you are truly a disciple of Victor. The orginization's lies do run deep! You have gone in and made quite a name for yourself. There are those of us who also "keep good records". I believe that you sent this peaceful email to a good friend from Illinois who got sick of all your school's B.S. The profanity has been sensored for the comfort of the other patrons:

Not a chance I'm letting this stay here....

Sarge

Very eloquent style of writting there monyet. I used be in touch with the guy that you sent that to. That letter made it's way across the internet, and the world. I wonder if anyone will send it to Dave Cater, and IKF? J.R. is a very honorable guy who if asked, would even still give you the shirt off of his back if you asked for it.

The best advice anyone could give Marcusknight would be to go to a direct- accomplished Guru of Paul de Thouars. I don't know if you will find one in Texas, but that's your best bet. They will Never be involved in any internet-bickering like this. I'm feel sickened that I too have even become privy!

Out of curiosity "Monyet",when will your Victor admit to his ongoing deceptions about being a US Marine? He did say that quite often, didn't he? Did he produce proof yet? How can folks like yourself, and this Andrew guy who started this whole post (that call themselves "seniors"), go on when your leader keeps shoveling his 'sheep' lies? Does that make you perpetuators of these untruths? It does if you are aware of it. And all of the current seniors help shovel it too, to all of the new guys like MarcusKnight that don't know any better. Shame on you! Why doesn't that guy in the 'Tsunami' books, Mjr. Bob Custer (ret.) USMC, shank him for lying? I would hope that any self-respecting former-Marine would put a stop to that!

Andrew was right in saying Vic was a genious, as far as Vic's creation of another lineage of curriculum. If it true that this Mas Roen, and Marjokey did not exist, the man did a good job in innovating his 'pentjak'. By his lying about it, has scarred his name, and all of thise ever attached to it. The U.S. silat community would be better off if it's teachers/leaders went back into thier own homes (garages,basements)where there isn't any overhead, and stopped trying to charge outragous sums of $$$ to learn mystical secrets. My silat history is that of a layman's, but did Silat Gurus/Players in Indonesian villages used to charge it's members to learn the vital ways of defense nessacary to survive?

Love,
Sleepless in N.Y.

p.s. Has anyone seen the Serak(TM) movie starring Guru Dan as Mas Roen? Has it come out yet??

Orang Bayangan

10-Mar-2006, 06:22 PM

First of all, let me thank you for all of your effort to register on this forum with an anonymous profile, to offer one post aimed at me. Makes me feel special.

Everyone has to start somewhere, why not with you? I suppose you have to take what you can get. I am happy to have helped to boost your self esteem.

I was never part of any such rumor, not pivotal, not at all.

You can equivocate all you like, but there are enough people who know what went on that it doesn't really matter.

Like I said before, if Victor hadn't thrown you out you would still be attacking his "enemies" for him. Your experiences do not seem to have changed you for the better (or at all perhaps).

You might want to get some real feedback from some of the people who you named. You could benefit from seeing yourself from the perspective of other people. (or perhaps it never occurred to you that people might have opinions of you that differ from what you think they are)

Gajah Silat

10-Mar-2006, 06:31 PM

Tuankaki

10-Mar-2006, 06:49 PM

Everyone has to start somewhere, why not with you? I suppose you have to take what you can get. I am happy to have helped to boost your self esteem.

You can equivocate all you like, but there are enough people who know what went on that it doesn't really matter.

Like I said before, if Victor hadn't thrown you out you would still be attacking his "enemies" for him. Your experiences do not seem to have changed you for the better (or at all perhaps).

You might want to get some real feedback from some of the people who you named. You could benefit from seeing yourself from the perspective of other people. (or perhaps it never occurred to you that people might have opinions of you that differ from what you think they are)I suspect, that - like you - whoever they are, they have their minds made up at this very late date. I came on this thread to try and help they guy who started it, to see that some of the venomous posts he was receiving for his efforts, were a legitimate attempt to help him protect his reputation over the long haul. I also stated that I was not going to comment on the specifics of what he has been taught or the agenda-laden terminology associated with it. The reason is that he had suggested I was a guy who could support his point of view, so I wanted to clarify that I was not - and why. A couple of folks paid me a compliment for which I thanked them. I've tried to send a negative thread in a positive direction. I guess I'm way out of line, huh?

This is the internet, so you can lob all the typewriter bombs you care to from anonymity. I'm not going to respond to you any more, because your mind is made up, and there's no constructive future for anyone reading this in my maintaining a back and forth with you. I wonder why, with all the vitriol on this thread (none of which has come from me), you're so motivated to pick on me, but it's only idle curiosity. I'm sure you'll pipe up here and tell us all why, but I don't care. Rave on. No more responses from me.

Tuankaki

10-Mar-2006, 06:50 PM

Steve Perry

10-Mar-2006, 07:14 PM

I have no doubt that you have "been on the receiving end of some mean-spirited and untruthful comments from that part of town" but they didn't come from my neighborhood and certainly not from my address. I feel that I have been cordial and open about my intentions here, maybe even to the point of possible rammifications in my own life, and I don't appreciate you publically writing my intents off or questioning my motives simply on the basis of guilt by association. You don't know me or my reasons for getting involved in or continuing to study this art so I will thank you not to imply that you have knowledge of my aims other than what I have been honest about. I'm not going to be so hubristic as to immediately infer that your analog about high roads and shortcuts is directed specifically at me, but I feel I should point out that I am not the one who felt compelled to post here because I had gore to grind off of my axe.

You have a point, and I concede it. Students cannot always be held responsible for what a teacher says, any more than a teacher is always responsible for his students's words or deeds. There are, however, some fairly narrow and blurred lines here. If you are standing watch outside the bank while a couple of your buddies rob the place, you are as guilty as they are if they decide to shoot somebody, even if you weren't carrying a gun.

As I recall my entry into this discussion, it came when Guru Andrew posted a note about the IKF article, and I pointed out a simple error of fact in it. I thought I was fairly restrained, because there were other howlers I let slide.

No, I wasn't there when the base-angle-leverage term came into being, but I can trace it back for as long as I have been there, and I have seniors who will happily testify to earlier useage. Guru Plinck came up with it. Not Pak Vic, not Mas Djut, not Bapak Sera. Period.

People borrow techniques and terms all the time. No harm in that. But it's like borrowing a phrase to use in a book or article that you knowingly lifted from another writer. If you use the quote, you attribute it. If you claim it as your own, or give it to somebody else without doing that, it's called plagiarism.

I realize that you don't care who came up with the term in question. And if Pak Vic had said the terminology had come from Guru Plinck, that would have been fine. But to intentionally borrow and not say so strikes me as not wanting to give credit where it is due, and I have to ask myself, Why is that? Coupled with the "new lineage" that suddenly leaves Guru Plinck back in primary school, vis a vis his silat, along with a generally expressed disdain in our direction from a whole bunch of Pak Vic's gurus, you might understand that I see an intentional pattern.

You say you are not part of that, and I realize that might consist of keeping your mouth shut and your eyes averted when it comes up. Come up it has, though, and I've had eye- and earwitness testimony from guys who were there. If you weren't actively involved, then I apologize for tarring you with that brush. In the past, I have had some of Vic's seniors (former ones) email or call me to apologize for his comments, and I could understand their dilemma -- they respected Stevan, they don't agree with what Pak Vic said, but he is (was) their teacher, and what could they do about it?

An unpleasant spot, between the rock and the hard place.

And yet, I haven't gotten any private notes from you regarding this. Could it be that you would rather hash it out in public? If I am to be faulted for attacking Guru Andrew in open view instead of privately contacting him, then how is what you've done any different?

Of course, you are sometimes known by the company you keep. And sometimes, if you lie down with dogs, you ought not to be surprised if you wake up with fleas.

As I have previously stated I respect you and enjoy reading your posts whatever they pertain to but don't second guess my motives. I have given you no cause to here and you don't know me from elsewhere. You can consider them to be "pie in the sky" naivete and smugly wait for my other shoe to drop or doubt them entirely, but I would rather risk that disappointment and hope for an enviornment where I can potentially study my art in an open arena with many perspectives than use my talent and experience to perpetuate old schisms.

As you pointed out in your unconcern for who came up with the base-angle-leverage term, let me apply that to your motives. If you are in a gang that waylays me on the street, your motives for doing so don't concern me. By being there, you offer tacit approve to what they are doing, whether you throw a punch or not. I haven't seen any attempt to disassociate yourself from the pack.

For what its worth I agree with the majority of the rest of the observations and advice you've given Mr. Knight, its very astute and well stated. If only you can deliver it without feeling the need to belittle me based soley on your keen insight to me from a single post and basic knowledge of my affiliations I would appreciate it more.

All I have to go on is what you post here, that is true. But since you invited yourself to the party, and made your affiliations part of your platform, then perhaps I ought not to be blamed for thinking you are a member of the camp that belittles mine. If no such word has ever passed your lips, then again, my apology.

It it walks and quacks like a duck and flies with the flock, it might not be a duck, but that's the way the smart money bets.

Bobster

10-Mar-2006, 07:19 PM

Deleted

Sarge

I saw that letter as well, and I also know that person it was sent to, realitychecker, and you're correct: He IS an honorable guy, and a very dedicated practitioner. I personally met him at ROF 2003. He certianly deserved better than he got. I understand he has found a teacher worthy of the name now, and is happy where he is.

It is beginning to get as tiresome as it is embarassing

You know what, Gajah? You're right. This is a damn sight tiresome. I am long away from this organization & it still finds me from time to time. But what I see is, although blunt or harsh, isn't an insult war.

It's a general call for accountability.

By lying about it, has scarred his name, and all of thise ever attached to it. The U.S. silat community would be better off if it's teachers/leaders went back into thier own homes (garages,basements)where there isn't any overhead, and stopped trying to charge outragous sums of $$$ to learn mystical secrets. My silat history is that of a layman's, but did Silat Gurus/Players in Indonesian villages used to charge it's members to learn the vital ways of defense nessacary to survive?

It has long been my belief that Victor and the brothers D should be held accountable for their actions. They burn and pillage through the silat community without a second thought to the hatred and malevolence they leave in their wake. The majority of the posts here are between Victor's former students and his newer crop. Victor readily encourages this, and all the while as people who have given heart, mind and soul (checkbooks?) to Victor draw the line & demand honesty, he allows others to fight for him as he stands in the background, Promethean, beating his chest over how he has been slandered.

We as a community have a responsibility to police ourselves. There was a time when you couldn't get away with this kind of irresponsiblity with students. The bad judgement shown by the DeThouars wouldn't have gone so long unchecked if the community would have stood up & held them accountable for their words and actions. Say all you want about how great their skill is, it doesn't stand as an excuse for ANY of the brothers. This small gathering isn't even a quarter of the people who cannot be in the same room with each other due to Victor's mishandling of his system. Now you are all fighting amongst yourselves because of things you did or said while training with Victor (or Paul, or Willem). Some of you are having to explain things you said on other forums, words that really didn't come from your own mouths if you think about it. You may want to reconsider your "blameless" position, we are each responsible for our own actions, no matter whose influence we might have been under.

If you have caused conflict like this, ADMIT IT. Dagon knows I did, and I was humble about it when I admitted to such because I knew I was guilty of it. The man I screamed about on Victor's forum is now one of my closest friends, and I have discovered his knowledge of Silat to be unquestionable. WTF?? I was blatantly told that this man had "stolen" all of his Silat, how did he know these secretive things about Cimande? He knew things not only about Pa Herman but Bambang as well...and knew them personally. What would I have missed out on if I continued to follow Victor's doctrine after I left his system?

I don't expect those who hear this to suddenly "wake up" and smell the kopi tarik. If you're in a car doing 70 mph, why jump out of it for the unknown just because a stranger said so? But I do hope that the words others post here lead you to examine your actions & the motives behind them. I hope it encourages you to THINK before you ACT.

And just maybe, when the inevitable occurs, (and it WILL occur, we have yet to see an example where it didn't) I hope it lets you see that there is more than one side of the story, and that well-worn path you are on has been tread by countless others. You're not alone out here.

Alea Jacta Est

Tuankaki

10-Mar-2006, 08:16 PM

I saw that letter as well, and I also know that person it was sent to, realitychecker, and you're correct: He IS an honorable guy, and a very dedicated practitioner. I personally met him at ROF 2003. He certianly deserved better than he got. I understand he has found a teacher worthy of the name now, and is happy where he is.

<snip>

It's a general call for accountability.

It has long been my belief that Victor and the brothers D should be held accountable for their actions. They burn and pillage through the silat community without a second thought to the hatred and malevolence they leave in their wake. The majority of the posts here are between Victor's former students and his newer crop. Victor readily encourages this, and all the while as people who have given heart, mind and soul (checkbooks?) to Victor draw the line & demand honesty, he allows others to fight for him as he stands in the background, Promethean, beating his chest over how he has been slandered.

We as a community have a responsibility to police ourselves. There was a time when you couldn't get away with this kind of irresponsiblity with students. The bad judgement shown by the DeThouars wouldn't have gone so long unchecked if the community would have stood up & held them accountable for their words and actions. Say all you want about how great their skill is, it doesn't stand as an excuse for ANY of the brothers. This small gathering isn't even a quarter of the people who cannot be in the same room with each other due to Victor's mishandling of his system. Now you are all fighting amongst yourselves because of things you did or said while training with Victor (or Paul, or Willem). Some of you are having to explain things you said on other forums, words that really didn't come from your own mouths if you think about it. You may want to reconsider your "blameless" position, we are each responsible for our own actions, no matter whose influence we might have been under.

If you have caused conflict like this, ADMIT IT.

<snip>

And just maybe, when the inevitable occurs, (and it WILL occur, we have yet to see an example where it didn't) I hope it lets you see that there is more than one side of the story, and that well-worn path you are on has been tread by countless others. You're not alone out here.Yikes. That was very clear. And it points to a positive future. I know the person that that letter was sent to, and I agree - very honorable person indeed. I singled him out at ROF 2004 (my last one), in appreciation for his character and dedication. I'm very happy for him and for where he ended up. He felt horrible about things he was influenced into saying about me (and others) after we left, and he went out of his way to contact me to tell me so before he himself made his exit. We remain friends and brothers in the art.

In the spirit of Bobbe's post, I will admit here that I stood outside Steve's metaphorical bank while the robbery was going on and I regret not having left sooner. I did consult my direct senior, (upon his being "thrown out") which I have always done, and he encouraged me to stay as long as I could stand it. And when Chris called me to tell me he was leaving, I told him I'd go the same day. He was the last guy in my "generation" of long hours and years of training and socializing, that I had felt obligated to support.

That said, with the benefit of some hindsight, I realize that by simply occupying a space that I was put in, my personal integrity was misused to lend credibility (internally, if nowhere else) to some destructive behavior, and I'm responsible for allowing that to happen. A rock and a hard place indeed - made doubly difficult because I had a public school and students to think about when weighing all this stuff - but I'll cop to it.

Steve Perry

10-Mar-2006, 09:25 PM

C'mon people. Do you not have the dignity to rise above this ongoing conflict?

For if you have grudges to bear, is this really the place to do it?

Can't you just PM each other with insults and spare the rest of us this embarassment?

Don't bring those of us who are not involved in these political issues down to your level. That is what it does! It taints the rest of us who study under the very large umbrella of 'Silat'.

It is beginning to get as tiresome as it is embarassing :o

There is an old saying, sir: Where there is smoke, there is fire.

That there is this much contention about our branch of silat is something of which a prospective -- or current -- student should find useful to be aware. If, as I said on another forum, I saw you about to pick up a coral snake that you thought was a harmless king snake, I'd feel the need to let you know that. If you still wanted to do so, that would be your business, but I would have done what I thought was right.

If there were a bunch of folks out snake-hunting, it would be easier to convey the danger to them all at once than by trying to speak to each one directly.

You find all this tiresome and embarrassing, so, why read it? Nobody is twisting your arm and making you, nor did they insist that you join the discussion, did they? You can vote with your feet.

People more directly concerned with it obviously feel the need to speak to it. The article that started the discussion was about silat Serak, so nobody was talking of your branch of the art and whatever issues that might exist with it. Those who need to be embarrassed here probably won't be, but since you don't really know who that is, wouldn't it be better for you to stay out of it, if it bothers you? Instead of, you know, taking us to task for talking about things of which you have no direct knowledge, telling us we have no dignity, that we are tainting you, are tiresome, and pointing out the low level at which we operate?

Your insults make you better than us how ... ?

Orang Bayangan

10-Mar-2006, 11:47 PM

C'mon people. Do you not have the dignity to rise above this ongoing conflict?

So far it seems to me that the "conflict" has been pretty dignified. Things said have been matters of substance rather than personality.

For if you have grudges to bear, is this really the place to do it?

It seems to me to be a matter of setting the record straight rather than having grudges. As Mr. Perry pointed out "all that is needed for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"

For years some members of the DeThoures family and their students have made the Silat world a laughing stock with their incessant feuding and back stabbing.

No one has been more public in this than Victor, and unlike the rest of the family he is the one that has gone to great lengths to attack people who are not members of his circle, and to encourage hs students to do the same.

He is also the one who changes his teachers and linage at will (with no regard for the claims he made last week) who claims to have been a Viet Nam veteran, but no one can find any record of his even being in the military, who claims to have a PhD. though there is no record that anyone can find of this, who denigrates all other teachers of his art, even the ones he trained. and on and on and on ad nauseam. (The term "Compulsive Lying as evidence of Antisocial Personality Disorder" comes to mind)

Can't you just PM each other with insults and spare the rest of us this embarrassment?

If it were about insulting people sure, but then that is not what it is really about.

Don't bring those of us who are not involved in these political issues down to your level. That is what it does! It taints the rest of us who study under the very large umbrella of 'Silat'.

It is beginning to get as tiresome as it is embarrassing :o

I have to wonder why you are subjecting yourself to this thread then.

People have a right to know both sides of the issue, what better place to discuss such things than here?

It really becomes interesting in that we have some of the "usual suspects" here who were Victor's "hit men" when they were in his good graces, as well as the current group of cannon fodder that Vic uses to stay one step away from the actual debate.

And we have one of the ring leaders of the group now claiming to be only "standing outside the bank". Now admittedly "Master Foot" was very careful to present a pleasant and reasonable public face, but there are a number of people here who were privy to the more private conversations.

But we can also infer private behavior from one's public actions.

"Master Foot" was the individual who started one of the largest and most hateful of the battles between Willian Sanders PCP and the members of VDT.

Perhaps he has selective amnesia when it comes to this event being as he was not "outside the bank".

It should be noted that "Foot" has never met Mr. Sanders or his teachers, yet felt free to denigrate them on a public forum. That is what we are dealing with here, a lot of hearsay from Victor and his students (especially his students) trumpeted as truth. But it's not. Foot has never met Mr Sanders or any of his senior students, has never got on the mat with them, has never met any of Mr Sanders teachers, yet he feels qualified to insult them because it gained him points with Victor. It should also be noted that Mr Sanders had removed any reference to Victor from all the websites he had control over at least a year before and had been practicing a live and let live philosophy until "Foot" could not deal with the peacefulness any more and just had to start something. In other words it was an unprovoked attack for no other reason than to create discord and please Victor

This is habitual behavior for "Master Foot", and while he would like everyone to think he is a great and reasonable guy, there are enough people who have seen the truth to know better.

(By the way Foot, if you had enough Bahasa to read my name you would know who I am, just as I knew you from yours).

Bobster

10-Mar-2006, 11:58 PM

MAP is an English speaking forum, thanks

Sarge

Gajah Silat

11-Mar-2006, 12:01 AM

Be that as it may Steve, even though I do not study Serak, I believe the constant bickering on the forum does indeed reflect on all of us.

I meant no offence by my post, but merely tried to point out how may look to the non-Serak pesilats.

For other MAists who do not study Silat might not make the distinction between styles. Those perusing this forum may indeed draw the conclusion that us Pesilats are constantly falling out due to internal politics. Who could blame them? Many threads regardless of the original title seem to get hijacked and politicised.

In the UK we have a saying too. "Do not air your dirty washing in public"

Edit: By the way, I think that most other Silat perguruan outside the USA and in particular outside VDT Serak, are pretty much aware of at least some of these issues ;)

Gajah Silat

11-Mar-2006, 12:10 AM

MAP is an English speaking forum, thanks

Sarge

Steve Perry

11-Mar-2006, 01:24 AM

Be that as it may Steve, even though I do not study Serak, I believe the constant bickering on the forum does indeed reflect on all of us.

I meant no offence by my post, but merely tried to point out how may look to the non-Serak pesilats.

And I wasn't offended, merely responding that if you think it is a problem, by joining the fray, you become part of it. I'm not against you jumping right in, more power to you. But you don't make it better by telling us to shut up and then do what you say we are doing ...

Yep, it looks pissy from outside, but there are real issues here. Some of the folks who have made mistakes or gotten stung are passing stuff along in the hope that it might prevent other folks from suffering the same fate.

Some of us who didn't do anything at all suddenly found ourselves being vilified for no reason at all.

I don't claim to have the only line to Truth; what I can say is, we up in our little backwater of silat (taught in the rear of an unheated and uncooled metal shop, and before that, either a garage or backyard) were happily minding our own business when all of a moment we started getting worlds of crap tossed in our direction.

There are only a relative handful of us -- my teacher doesn't do this to make his living. But he is very good as a player and a teacher, and in some quarters, this apparently gives rise to insecurities.

One of the basic principles of our branch of Sera is that we don't back up much. When attacked, whether by word or deed, we feel that we are allowed to defend. I'm not much of a fighter -- too old, too slow -- but I can hold my own with a keyboard, and so I step in where I can help.

For other MAists who do not study Silat might not make the distinction between styles. Those perusing this forum may indeed draw the conclusion that us Pesilats are constantly falling out due to internal politics. Who could blame them? Many threads regardless of the original title seem to get hijacked and politicised.

But they can read. I pointed out a factual error in an article. I explained why I thought it was wrong, and then I elaborated, pointing out that there was an unstated agenda that might be responsible for what seems, from where I sit, to be a pattern of such things.

Nobody has to believe it. But I felt the need to say it, and make it as clear as I could.

Do I think that Ed Martin was out to get us in his article? No. I expect he took what he was told about base-angle-leverage at face value, and no reason why he shouldn't. Be that as it may, it was still wrong. Why would I let it stand, that credit (however small) should be taken from where it was due?

In the UK we have a saying too. "Do not air your dirty washing in public"

Yep, we have that saying here, too. And for a long time, none of us in our group said anything about the dirty bedsheets and ship-sails and building covers being waved about in the breeze. But at some point, you reach the end of your patience and get tired of wiping slander off your face. How you get somebody to stop is to call them on it, whenever and wherever it comes up.

I bear Guru Astle absolutely no ill-will. I understand his position. But I also understand my position. I favor mine.

And as Winston Churchill joked about ending a sentence in a preposition, this is something up with which I will not put.

It's a simple enough position to imagine yourself in: Suppose somebody got online and said that your teacher didn't really know the art he claims? That he was a nice enough guy and all, but not really adept as a player or a teacher?

How would that make you feel?

I never said that about Pak Vic. I said he has an ... interesting relationship with the truth, but not that he was a crappy player or teacher and that none of his students had ever learned anything.

Gajah Silat

11-Mar-2006, 07:22 AM

Steve Perry

It's a simple enough position to imagine yourself in: Suppose somebody got online and said that your teacher didn't really know the art he claims? That he was a nice enough guy and all, but not really adept as a player or a teacher?

How would that make you feel?

Point taken. Although I really can't see that situation arising.

Orang Bayangan

For years some members of the DeThoures family and their students have made the Silat world a laughing stock with their incessant feuding and back stabbing.

So does rising to the bait in public help matters? Better to stay in the shadows ;)

Anyway, I will leave you guys to it. My interjection was well meant if a little hashly worded. Better for me to back out and not make myself unpopular :love:

Steve Perry

12-Mar-2006, 07:21 PM

So does rising to the bait in public help matters? Better to stay in the shadows ;)

Actually, yeah, I think it does. If you see something with which you disagree and you let it stand, then you can't gripe if people accept and believe it because there was no option.

I don't think I'm going to change the minds of anybody who is firmly set one way or the other. But maybe somebody who doesn't know will at least see there is more than one side and check around a little more.

For years, we kept the dirty laundry out of sight, and as a result, there have been folks who blundered in and got wrapped up in the folds unknowingly.

I'm not insecure about what I'm learning, but I do hate to have folks bad-mouthing it and having people who don't know better think they own the field. They don't.

realitychecker

13-Mar-2006, 03:12 PM

It is getting a lot like 'Where's Waldo?' at the VDT Academy. A friend of mine who is under Guru Dan called me over the weekend to tell me that the ROF will be at the Inosanto Academy. What happened to Hawaii? The 'missing link', Pak Marjokey is absent too. It seems that they do not expect to get a big turn out unless they can tie it to Guro Dan. The 'murids' should get a glimpse of real MA from their visit to the Inosanto Academy! Same, old instructors (outside of Guro Dan, who is always exciting) as last year. Go see the Ed Martin crew workout for $250 ? Hmmmm........................................... :confused:

serakmurid

13-Mar-2006, 09:08 PM

ALL I WANTED IS FOR PEOPLE TO READ THE BLINKIN' INSIDE KUNG FU ARTICLE !!!!!! Not start a major faction war. There ain't that many silat articles around, anyhow. Gads, I stopped reading the forum for a few days just to cool down. All of you seem to have taken my info-post as an opportunity to flame me, my teacher and each other. Shame on you!

Thanks Monyet for the defense I appreciate it! I'll see you hopefully at ROF 2006. Too bad not enough people had deep enough pockets to get to Hawaii (like me), but its great to see the Bellflower PUsat Tjabang and the Inosanto Academy. Pak Vic, he is such a masterful Serak Guru, I am looking forward to seeing him again and Guru Dan, too. I am sure the "Guru Ed martin crew" will be fantastic as always, I do miss all those great murids. I am cheating and having Pak Vic come out to Cortland in the last week of April, too. :D

realitychecker

13-Mar-2006, 10:57 PM

No one's blaming you for the war, Andrew. As I'm sure you realize, your public announcement of your association to your school and the article put you in the middle of your teacher and some higher level guys like Monyet (who is Ed Martin, and you will see him at ROF) and people who your teacher has made feel in the past like you must have felt on your "couple of days off from the forum". But your last proclamation is typical of the frontline VDT cheerleaders. Play the innocent role, graciously thank anyone who is even close to being sympathetic to your plight. And finally act like you don't possibly know how underhanded things can be in your camp, and play the innocent. If you are going to play the innocent on a martial arts forum, expect to get lit up by someone. Like Mr. Steve Perry said, the old "why can't we all just get along?" thing doesn't cut it here. I'm sure you know this as you trolled forums even back when my teacher knew you. You can look in almost any category in MAP, or any forum, and find indifference. As you found out, there is a lot of that toward the orginization you belong to.

It is also a total cop out that your teacher can't produce this Marjokey, the missing link that trains Serak(r) in Indonesia. Hell, I might have even dropped the $250 to come see him. The first thing I want to see is how he does his jurus 1 elbow. I heard a rumor that the 45 deg-downward elbow your school holds as THE Serak(r) standard, was actually an addition by another sore spot on the Serak(r) scene from Seatle. And not in any way, shape or form is that particular elbow a functional structure in true Sera because you raise the elbow above the shoulder. If you had a functional understanding, you understand that doing that makes you 'weak'. Have you seen this Marjokey do the same elbow yet?
Anyway, I don't want to upset you anymore. My Grandparents always told us that it wasn't nice to play with firecrackers next to a flock of Sheep!
OUT

tellner

13-Mar-2006, 11:07 PM

Serakmurid, I understand that a lot of this must have come as a shock. If you'll look over the posts by Bobbe and Steve you'll notice that they were careful to stay away from flaming. Realitychecker and Orang Bayangan were a tad less restrained but still confined themselves to pretty reasonable posts considering what has happened to them. Me? I never did get that diplomacy merit badge when I was a Boy Scout. So I just play them as they're dealt.

The problem is that your teacher has built up a huge reservoir of ill will among every one of his former students with whom I am acquainted and has said things which aren't true and which he knew weren't true. Most of it was to promote himself at the expense of people around him. Combine that with the small size of the online Silat community and the even tinier de Thouars subset. Friction was nearly inevitable, particularly when some of the old lies were repeated.

Nobody is saying that Guru Victor can't fight, can't teach or doesn't have impressive Silat skills. Some of us have gotten tired of his apparent attempts to declare himself the Pope of Silat and to rewrite history towards that goal. You aren't to blame in any of this. In fact, some of us would think less of you if you didn't defend your teacher. We just feel obliged to set the record straight and correct obvious falsehoods about people we respect.

Bobster

14-Mar-2006, 12:44 AM

MAP is an English speaking forum, thanks

Sarge

Sorry about that Sarge!!!!

Orang Bayangan

14-Mar-2006, 12:48 AM

ALL I WANTED IS FOR PEOPLE TO READ THE BLINKIN' INSIDE KUNG FU ARTICLE !!!!!! Not start a major faction war.

Well, I for one feel for you. You obviously had no idea that your teacher has done so much to create such ill will in the Silat community.

But if you think about it, he did spend years riding rough shod over everyone who would not kowtow to him as the real authority on Silat in the USA.

You have not been around long enough I would bet, to remember how your teacher and his sycophants did so much disruptive damage to the Pendekar list, which was one of the most valuable resources the Silat community had, that Abu Mansur ended up closing it down. And it was done just so that your teacher could continue his vendetta against William Sanders.

It is because of actions like these that he has engendered such ill will. Now the worm has turned though and he is getting what he was so willing to give to others.

So don't be surprised if you get a lot of hostility when you point people to a self serving article that claims Victor has been good for Silat in this country. The truth is quite the opposite, he has brought shame to this community with his antics. Until he is put in the place he really diserves, a short unfortunate footnote in the history of American Silat, it is unlikely that this community will ever be taken seriously.

Steve Perry

14-Mar-2006, 01:39 AM

All of you seem to have taken my info-post as an opportunity to flame me, my teacher and each other. Shame on you!

Um, Guru, all I did was point out an error of fact in the article, and indicate in follow-up postings that this wasn't the first time such errors had crept into print. If you like, I can deconstruct the piece at length and show you a whole bunch of other stuff offered as fact that cannot in any way be proven to be such.

This is the problem with pronouncements from that branch of the art. There have been many, and many of them are iffy, contradictory, or outright wrong. I am not the first to notice it, nor, I expect will I be the last.

But show me where I said Pak Vic was a bad silat player or teacher. Or that I flamed you.

Thing is, if you stand up and say, "Hey ain't this cool?" you might ought to be prepared for folks who maybe don't think it is -- especially when they have good reason to think that.

You were happy to see a piece about your teacher in print, and nobody blames you for that. And maybe you had no idea there was any contention in the arena of silat Sera(k) in the U.S., though I must confess, I have my doubts about that. Certainly you will know so in the future.

I respect your view that your teacher has been nice to you.

You might consider respecting other viewpoints that indicate he wasn't nice to some other folks. And consider if that has any bearing on the matter.
And if you want to save yourself some grief in the future, consider doing a little research on your own to separate fact from fiction. You might suprised at how much what you think you know doesn't stand up under close inspection.

Any help I can offer, contact me offline.

If you'd rather remain blissfully ignorant, that's your right, of course. But if so, you don't get to gripe too loudly if somebody points it out to you down the line.

Orang Jawa

14-Mar-2006, 02:08 AM

Salam Serak murid,
If you are a murid as you had claimed, then you got to learn to listen and listen to learn.
Tristan

Sgt_Major

14-Mar-2006, 10:52 AM

Sorry about that Sarge!!!!

Thats cool. Just for folks like me who are ignorant of other languages and cant keep up with the conversation :D

tellner

14-Mar-2006, 03:38 PM

Besides the thing he said about your uncle, the goat and the melon wasn't meant literally :)

Buddy

14-Mar-2006, 09:06 PM

"You have not been around long enough I would bet, to remember how your teacher and his sycophants did so much disruptive damage to the Pendekar list, which was one of the most valuable resources the Silat community had, that Abu Mansur ended up closing it down."

Having been one of those said "sychophants", I'd like to issue a public apology to all concerned. I've already said as much to Pak Tristan so now it goes out to all of you. I'm sorry.
I was fortunate not to be on the "do not call" list (at least on the website), because I resigned. I'd like to think that there are those who still remember me with some fondness, but I am happy to have just gone back to baguazhang.
Cheers all,
Buddy

Orang Jawa

14-Mar-2006, 09:52 PM

Hi Buddy,
Good to hear from you.
Life is about choices, freedom to choose the outcomes...
You are a gentleman, indeed.
Tristan

Orang Bayangan

15-Mar-2006, 06:49 AM

There was one passage in the article I found quite interesting. The writer said

For more than 2,500 years, the Badui have followed a mathematical science composed of geometrical measurements formatted and overlapped into a unique platform that revels, among many things, the strengths and weaknesses of the human body. It contains knowledge and understanding of the earth's magnetic forces. Upon first observation, one of the platforms is often said to resemble a blueprint of a spacecraft.

So what are the implications here? Is the author suggesting that Sarak has an extraterrestrial origin? Ore does Sarak fight along ley lines as is suggested by "It contains knowledge and understanding of the earth's magnetic forces"?

Are the Badui supposed to be aliens? If so from where? I am also interested in the figure "more than 2,500 years" as the archeology of the region does not seem to bear this out.

Are the Badui descendants of the Grays? Or are they perhaps the last remnant population from Lemuria?

Inquiring minds want to know.

(This is not directed at the non-extraterrestrial styles of Serak)

Monyet Nakal

15-Mar-2006, 06:52 AM

I’m sorry everyone for once more adding to this thread and keeping it alive. I was quite done with it and I know the majority of you are well sick of it but there is some direct, personal misinformation that I feel I should address so if you have not been following this thread than there’s really no great insight in this post, but if you have been following this thread please read the following clarification to an earlier post.

Monyet,
I mean Ed Martin, you are truly a disciple of Victor. The orginization's lies do run deep! You have gone in and made quite a name for yourself. There are those of us who also "keep good records".??

You can go ahead and stop smugly patting yourself on the back all over this thread realitychecker. I can assure you that I am not Mas Ed Martin. He is a phenomenal martial artist and an incredible instructor so I would normally be quite flattered that you might confuse me for him (were your designs not an attempt to ridicule) but sadly you are nowhere near the “great ‘net detective” you assume yourself to be. So kindly come down off your high horse. You haven’t “gotten my number” and your gleefully exuberant attempts to lord your mistaken conclusion over me are laughable.

I believe that you sent this peaceful email to a good friend from Illinois who got sick of all your school's B.S. The profanity has been sensored for the comfort of the other patrons:

(quoted text clipped...)

Very eloquent style of writting there monyet. I used be in touch with the guy that you sent that to. That letter made it's way across the internet, and the world. I wonder if anyone will send it to Dave Cater, and IKF? J.R. is a very honorable guy who if asked, would even still give you the shirt off of his back if you asked for it.".??

The missive you quote had been censored before I was able to read your post, but I believe I know the one you are citing. Perhaps in the future you might wish to validate your theories about a person’s identity before publicly reprinting personal communications or even posts from a private forum? Although then again perhaps you really wouldn’t as I don’t actually think you really care one iota as to whether I am the author or not and were merely looking for a handy justification to spread some further malice. Not that it really matters in regards to this thread, but I have met this Mr. J. R. on several occasions and based on my personal impression of him I would not be able to come up with a bad thing to say about him. He struck me as a very nice guy and an eager student of Indonesian martial arts and well-worthy of your unnecessary defense of him in this venue.

If it seems that I am going out of my way to keep pointing out that my personal feelings about people and courses of though mentioned in this thread might differ from those implied by others, well that’s because I am, but I am also being honest. It seems redundant to keep saying but many of the former students of Pak Vic’s that have been cited in this thread are people that I have met and hold genuine admiration for. I was sorry to see them go. So you see if, as you seem to be under the impression, I was genuinely blindly followed the party line I would not be giving my personal feeling on these matters I would be recounting someone else’s position. I’m sure all the people listed have their personal reasons for leaving and their own version as to how they left just as Pak Vic had his personal reasons for asking them to leave. As such I abide by my teacher’s wishes and do not professionally associate with them but I still maintain my personal impressions or even admirations of them. So attempt to be reasonable when you re-read my posts and I believe that you will find no “cheerleading,” “flag-waving” or rote repetitions of company rhetoric located in them.

...Out of curiosity "Monyet", when will your Victor admit to his ongoing deceptions about being a US Marine? He did say that quite often, didn't he? Did he produce proof yet? How can folks like yourself, and this Andrew guy who started this whole post (that call themselves "seniors"), go on when your leader keeps shoveling his 'sheep' lies? Does that make you perpetuators of these untruths? It does if you are aware of it. And all of the current seniors help shovel it too, to all of the new guys like MarcusKnight that don't know any better. Shame on you!... etc.

I think I see the reason why you are so mistaken as to my identity. Apparently you did not read any of my posts. If you had you would have noticed that nowhere in this thread do I refer to myself as a “senior” in the system (nor did Mas Andrew for that matter) nor do I spread these “shoveled ‘sheep’ lies” you accuse me of and, in fact, I have pointedly refused to comment on rumors and situations that I have no first-hand knowledge of. That's okay I don't mind repeating myself, much.

So are you telling me that I should feel shame if I tell interested and curious people like MarcusKnight that I have learned a tremendous amount from my studies under Pak Vic, that it has been a very positive influence on my life or that Serak is a tremendous and potent fighting system? Which one of those statements is the untruth that I am perpetuating? Is the VDT Academy the only pentjak silat organization who is required to promote their association with full disclosure of all past internal and external controversies, or is there some new global silat policy of voluntarily airing your dirty laundry to the public in order to justify every single complimentary statement made that apparently other schools have not been made privy to? I understand that you feel you need to have your opinions voiced but suggest you allow logic to take occassional precedence over your emotions or it might lead to just the sort of double standards you are advocating. If there is a statement that I have made here that paints some magical and rosy picture, that is not simply a statement of my own experience, please quote it back to me. If you are saying that I am obliged to give all opinions especially those that are counter to my organization, well even if I was psychic enough to know all of those opinions, I would feel no such obligation. There are plenty of others who have personal experience and have attempted to make those points here and most much more eloquently than you have. I have faith that MarcusKnight is an intelligent man and capable of making his own informed decisions.

Just in that same manner, and as I have previously stated, I feel no need to justify statements not made by myself nor will I answer questions that you feel it necessary to attempt to blindside me with, especially when your sole purpose in the asking is sarcasm. But you’ve already read all about that in my previous, and meticulously investigated posts, right? So why then do you insist on asking these probingly curious questions? Do you really expect that I have vast personal knowledge or that I will give you a date and location when Pak Vic will address every single issue that you might personally have with him? No. So why ask me these questions? Because obviously you are simply being transparently rhetorical, sarcastic and more than a little petty. Hey, I’m sure that brand of argumentative style has worked for you and successfully baited folks in the past; I just choose not to play that portion of the game.

Oh yeah...

...The U.S. silat community would be better off if it's teachers/leaders went back into thier own homes (garages,basements)where there isn't any overhead, and stopped trying to charge outragous sums of $$$ to learn mystical secrets. My silat history is that of a layman's, but did Silat Gurus/Players in Indonesian villages used to charge it's members to learn the vital ways of defense nessacary to survive?

Just so I am not mistaking you, are you advocating that no pentjak silat instructors should commit the great and terrible sin of attempting to make a living using their knowledge in this modern world, or just the ones the you personally disagree with? You might look around and notice that we, at least those of us here in the country you and I share, do not live in small, collaborative villages where a gifting economy might thrive or even survive. If you are implying that Pak Vic’s pricing structure is remarkably higher than those of other martial artists of his or even lesser caliber, well then I suggest you take a more rational survey with a more realistic definition of “too much” other than “more than none.”

Orang Jawa

15-Mar-2006, 09:37 PM

Salam Andrew and Monyet Nakal,
I admired your both for your loyalty to your teacher.
Everyone assumes something. We could not function if we did not. We assume the the sun rises in the east, we assume that thunder follows lightning. We are not llikely to be harmed by your reliance on these assumptions, even though assumptions, they are. But what of assuming that a man loves his wife? The teacher teaching for the love of the art and not for the money. That a teacher knows the right course of action? Well, here, as the saying goes, proceed with caution. And the best way to do that is to limit the number of assumptions you make.

We must of course, embrace a whole panoply of assumptions if we are to set one foot before the other. This approach is fine when the assumption is one that has proven itself since time immemorial and is based upon a substantial body of knowledge, knowledge that we have every reason to continue to regard is true.

But when the assumption is one for which you have no independently gained experience and when the consequences of failed assumption are significant and costly, you should not subsitute someone else's experience and knowledge for your own.
And I could be wrong too.
Tristan

realitychecker

16-Mar-2006, 01:20 AM

Just so I am not mistaking you, are you advocating that no pentjak silat instructors should commit the great and terrible sin of attempting to make a living using their knowledge in this modern world, or just the ones the you personally disagree with? You might look around and notice that we, at least those of us here in the country you and I share, do not live in small, collaborative villages where a gifting economy might thrive or even survive. If you are implying that Pak Vic’s pricing structure is remarkably higher than those of other martial artists of his or even lesser caliber, well then I suggest you take a more rational survey with a more realistic definition of “too much” other than “more than none.”

OK, Ed that's what I meant. Why are you ducking the issues? The issue isn't Silat teachers making a living from teaching. The issue isn't even Victor's ability. The issue I have is called Truth In Advertising. How can you substantiate the claims that you made in your article? It all leads back to the truth. In one instance, what we are talking about here is teaching Martial arts to make a living. On the other, making outragous claims about "space craft blueprints" and history dating back "2500 years". How about just telling the truth?
How about this;
Hi, my name is Victor deThouars! I was born in Indonesia. Upon Indonesian independence, the Dutch were expelled, and my family had to return to the Netherlands. It was there that I learned this amazing martial art from my older brothers.They were all very gifted martial artists who learned this 'silat' from our Uncle, who I have been told is the lineage holder of this system. I was taught quite a bit by my one of my brothers, who is much older than me. I must tell you, he was a great fighter and posessed a tremendous understanding of this art. In the early 60's, my whole family decided to move to America in the hopes of prospering in a free-land with a booming economy. In America, I trained even more with this brother. As a matter of fact, he quickly made a name for himself in this new country with every martial artist he met. Over time he taught me the entire system as he knew it. I am very fortunate to be his brother. Upon my Uncle from Holland's passing, my older brother was named 'pendekar agung', and carried the lineage torch of this system.Since I was diligantly training ,and have aquired an amazing understanding myself, proudly my brother named me the 'maha guru' of this system. This is how I have become a teacher, and bearer of the Martial understanding known as Sera. With patience and dedication, I have the ability to guide a student through the entire system, from the basics all the way to the most complex and intricate understandings. Come see what we do. If you like it, and you are of good moral character, loyal, and dedicated, I will teach you in the ways in which my brother taught them to me. You too, can aquire the abilities if you listen and take notes, train very hard, and look for understanding in everything that you do.

Why would you have to go any farther than that? Even though Paul and Victor parted ways, Paul did not strip Victor of everything that he learned. Why not just explain that he and his brother had a difference in opinion as to whether the art should be mass marketed to the public. Do you have to create a different source or lineage? How about letting your ability stand for itself? Do you have to create a fable about being in the military just to give yourself street cred? Even when your last name alone is associated with one of the higher level martial arts to even make to America? Can a few untruths snowball down hill to eventually create an avalanche? Apparently it has. Just look around at this thread. I was refered to Andrew's post, and all that followed, by a few other martial artists whose teacher was also jilted by yours. Do I have hard feelings? Abso-friggin-lutely!!! Is a "FORUM" not a place to have discusion and debate? According to you, it isn't. Is there a sign on the front door of MAP reading "do not argue with post authors, even if you have reason to believe they are wrong"? I'll peek into my magic mirror and dare to state that you read the recent posts very early Monday morning and spent the last day composing your defense. Pretty spooky that I knew that, huh? Kind of makes you think that I may be in the proverbial 'loop' of people that you are close to.
My instructor was burned by your "great professor". He gave his loyalty, tenacity, and dedication to your school only to find 'half truths'. To learn that in the higher levels it is common to spend a lot of time bad mouthing former high level students. That is why I'm %*$$ed-off, Mr.Monyet, Ed, Bernie, whatever your name. Damn straight I'm mad! Then Andrew comes in promoting an article, which itself is already full of decieving statements that will potentially mislead a whole new generation of students. Sell the TRUTH! If you have a 1984 Chevy Caprice, don't slap Cadilac emblems on it, forge the title, and sell it as a 2006 CTS. If you do that, someone will catch your deception. Especially the people who were around in 1984 driving a Chevy Caprice.
Although my style of writting is not as 'eloquent' as your's, or refined and professional as someone like Mr. Steve Perry, I still speak from the truth. A truth which I have developed a passion for, much like the passion little Andrew displayed at the very begining of this thing. You, whoever you are, defend these 'untruths' too. We have become advesaries through this medium. If you must persist in this vendetta, produce a hint of proof that I was wrong in any of the statements that I made.

- Was Victor a United States Marine?

-Does he have high-level degrees in Mechanical Engineering?

-Did he learn his Sera from Tisari Mardjuki, and not Paul?

-Is he really the only person in the USA qualified to judge if a person is worthy of teaching Serak?

-Is he really deserving of the ownership of an Indonesian word describing
an 'owl', or 'hoarse voice'? Or is he just an aggresive capitalist?

-Did he fabricate stories of the Serak Lineage to demonstrate the seperation of himself, and the brothers who taught him so much and were opposed to him trying to "get rich" from something that was passed to them by their distinguished departed uncle?

-Can you produce proof or actual historic references that the entire content of the April 06 IKF article in question is true?

-Is the truth pertinate to a healthy teacher-student relationship?

Is it true that he claims people such as the honorable Guru Stevan Plinck are the ones being misleading about Serak?

Well?

It's a public forum. Care to speak about what's true here?

If it isn't the truth, you might as well market it as "fat-cat harimau".

Well?

Kiai Carita

16-Mar-2006, 03:50 AM

We must of course, embrace a whole panoply of assumptions if we are to set one foot before the other. This approach is fine when the assumption is one that has proven itself since time immemorial and is based upon a substantial body of knowledge, knowledge that we have every reason to continue to regard is true.

Tristan

Warm salaams to all,

Wise words you wrote ther, Mas Tristan.

I am writing this from Bogor, West Jawa, where I have been practising and talking to many senior silat players (aged 70+), including on the topic of Serak. A few things I would like to share here:

1. Serak is a 'Betawi aliran' and so far I have not met anyone who knows or claims to be the 'lineage holder' of the style. Betawi is a relatively new city, and goes back to the 16-17 century, so definitely if Serak is a Betawi aliran it can't be older than the ancient Badui people. Also, most Betawi culture is influenced by Chinese culture so Serak must have some Chinese influence as well. Serak actually relates to several villages (kampongs) in the Jakarta region, and as such, the word kampong also has Western roots (kamp).

2. To this day there are still many silat schools in Indonesia whose 'Guru Besar' do not make a living from teaching silat. In fact most don't, and we are not a gift economy.

3. There has never been known anyone who claims to be a Maha Guru in silat of any style here, neither has anyone ever been known to give that title to anyone. The word Maha is usually associated with God.

4. The fact that Serak has been patented in the USA is always shocking news to all silat elders that I have met here. It was not a very nice thing to do, neither was it respectfull, neither was it truthfull.

5. When I asked elders about the disticntive character of Serak, they say it is 'maen bawah' or 'plays low' which is something I don't see in the pictures of what is called Serak in the USA which do not seem to be using low kuda-kuda. The pictures on the web of Serak, to me, look more like kuntao.

6. The concepts Base-Angle-Levarage are unheard of here and must be a contribution from USA pendekars to the silat world. Personally I think that the B-A-L concepts are very usefull and I am gratefull that an American pendekar formulated them. However, I am not convinced that what you call Serak there is called Serak here.

7. The claims to be Serak are more unconvincing, especially as the people who brought the art to the USA can't seem to agree with eachother. Also the way these people bandy around the terms Maha Guru or Ustadz and so on, reflect the fact that they have only a little knowledge and hardly any feel for the Indonesian language, let alone the regional languages like Betawi, Sundanese or Jawanese.

I suppose that is all I have to say. Obviousely you have an efficient art there, just maybe it might not be what it claims to be. Once again I would like to stress that Serak is an aliran, like cubism is an aliran in visual-arts. Now you would not expect Picaso or Ernst to copywrite cubism would you?

Hormat and warm salaams to all,

Kiai Carita.

nechesh

16-Mar-2006, 04:27 AM

tellner

16-Mar-2006, 05:16 AM

The low kuda is something Westerners really have to work at. My teacher has been working it hard the last few months and has always told us "Get lower!" and "Your Silat is only as good as your legs." I think that one of the reasons you see higher stances from Sera/Serak/Serah/whatever players in the States is the problem with leg strength and hip flexibility. Another is that many of the senior practitioners have been forced to adopt higher positions in recent years because of age and traffic accidents. Students copy the teacher's movement. Older pictures and stories by my teacher about his early training show something a lot closer to the ground.

Trademarking the name and proclaiming oneself the standard-bearer for a system is not something I would do, nor would either of my Silat teachers or any of their students. It has always struck us as extremely rude.

Nope. We sit here in the upper left corner of the map. We're not the Supreme Ultimate anything. But I can say without undue pride or false modesty that we do a fair job of absorbing what we're taught and passing it on to others.

Orang Jawa

16-Mar-2006, 12:15 PM

Salam Hormat everyone!
Very informative Kiai, very good indeed I do agree with you wholehearty!
My Uncle lived in Depok and my family lived in Kebayoran Baru, Jakarta. So Bogor is not far away from us :-)
My Uncle said: the low kuda-kuda is a must for practiced. The purpose is to build a strenght in the lower body. the lower the better. However, for pratical purpose, is not necessary. Meaning a situation will dictate how you will react and apply your techniques.
And he could be wrong too,
Tristan

Wali

16-Mar-2006, 02:14 PM

In my humble opinion, the Kuda-Kuda forms an integral part of silat. If a silat system doesn't have it, then I would start to question other aspects of that art in terms of authenticity.

Narrue

16-Mar-2006, 04:14 PM

i was drawn to this forum for discussion on keris. This thread has left a very bad taste in my mouth for this art in America. But perhaps there is still hope out there. Do silat schools talk this way about each other in Indonesia?

Nechesh, finding good Silat is like finding a good Keris, you know about that! I would not be put off. Who knows what you may uncover through the keris and its teachings and where it may bring you!

“Do silat schools talk this way about each other in Indonesia” Most martial arts schools do, privately or publicly. In Indonesia probably privately unless they really wanted to test their Silat.

Orang Jawa

16-Mar-2006, 06:31 PM

Steve Perry

16-Mar-2006, 07:27 PM

. This thread has left a very bad taste in my mouth for this art in America. But perhaps there is still hope out there. Do silat schools talk this way about each other in Indonesia? Maybe i need to come there to study. :)

I can't say if all schools in Indonesia talk about each other this way , but during a lengthy correspondence with somebody who was trying to make a point about which we were debating, he quoted comments to me from some Javanese pendekars in which they were, um less than complimentary about other teachers of the same system.

One teacher, who, according to one source was a fine fellow who ran a free clinic for children, was, according to another source, a liar who was probably on drugs.

I expect that people in Java are like people everywhere else when it comes to pride, ego, humbleness, honest, or any other human trait. There is always going to be a mix. And given that some of the people about whom we have been discussing were born and raised in Indonesia, I think the point is self-evident.

Silat is a fighting art, and sometimes it fosters as combative mind set. We are taught to avoid trouble when possible, but if sombody strikes us, we aren't shown how to offer them the other cheek, but to respond directly and decisively. If you sit and poke a stick into a fire ant hill, you ought be too surprised if the ant come out and sting you.

One bad apple can start the entire barrel of apples toward rot. Ignoring that when you know it is there doesn't make it go away. If you would rather remain ignorant of it, that's fine, no problem. If you think things are better halfway around the world, I expect you might be surprised.

tellner

16-Mar-2006, 07:57 PM

One bad apple can start the entire barrel of apples toward rot. Ignoring that when you know it is there doesn't make it go away.

Phillip Zimbardo, the researcher who did the classic work on dehumanization, torture and prisons, put it more strongly (http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/zimbardo05/zimbardo05_index.html) "You can't be a sweet cucumber in a vinegar barrel."

Wali

16-Mar-2006, 11:39 PM

Wali said:In my humble opinion, the Kuda-Kuda forms an integral part of silat. If a silat system doesn't have it, then I would start to question other aspects of that art in terms of authenticity.
******************
I'm a beginer in silat...could you tell me why do you do kuda-kuda? What is the purpose?
Thanking you in advance,
Tristan
Hi Tristan,

The Kuda-Kuda is a base posture which develops extremelly strong legs. It's a good exercise to develop strength and endurance, as well as concentration.

It also has many, many applications, and can be used both in defence and attack, under a variety of ways.

It roots you to the ground, but likewise, it can root others also. There is a fight between Royce Gracie and a Japanese Judofighter (Yoshida), where the Japanese guy totally controlled Royce from the Kuda-Kuda position for the whole fight, and went on to win it.

Here is a link to the fight for you to see... http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-601615499034099209&q=ufc

Hope this helps a little!

Wali

RAMANA1

17-Mar-2006, 02:08 AM

reality checker---your opinion is well put and i agree with evreything you said....take care,RAMANA1

Orang Jawa

17-Mar-2006, 03:35 AM

The Kuda-Kuda is a base posture which develops extremelly strong legs. It's a good exercise to develop strength and endurance, as well as concentration.
It also has many, many applications, and can be used both in defence and attack, under a variety of ways.
****************
I agree with you in general.
IMHO, kuda-kuda is a preparation/persiapan. It can be use as a base/staging area for offensive and defensive application or just to secure your perimeter. You have to look yourself in the mirror when you are in kuda-kuda and ask yourselves, am I secure? What if? If you see a hole in your defense then go back to the drawing board, you may have to learn how to do kuda-kuda properly.
And I can be wrong too,
Tristan

tellner

17-Mar-2006, 06:44 AM

Of course, if you always fight out of the same stance, same level it makes you predictable. There's a time and a place for almost everything including higher stances. Right now I've got a hip and knee injury that's taking a while to heal. Getting into a low kuda-kuda would make me a worse fighter for the next little while. There are also times when you just need to seize the moment and stop things fast. Taking the time to get into a certain stance or drop low would be detrimental then.

What can you do? This stuff may be deceptively simple, but it sure isn't easy.

RAMANA1

21-Mar-2006, 01:35 AM

very well put tellner,but the shredding of the vdt and pac vic was bound to happen,,i just wish these thoughts were published in inside kung fu,or black belt,so that people outside of our small silat community would not get burned financially..has anyone thought about writing some of the major publications??

Buddy

21-Mar-2006, 03:08 PM

It's your ax, you grind it.

Steve Perry

21-Mar-2006, 06:21 PM

.has anyone thought about writing some of the major publications??

Every time I have seen a magazine article about silat Sera(k) that had what looked to me to be mistakes in it, I have written to the editors to point them out.

Generally, the editors are disposed to publish these letters. Not always.

A full-out rant attacking somebody isn't likely to see print. Every art I've been around has disagreements, and broad pronouncements from one side or the other tend to get disregarded by folks who think it's all sour grapes. It makes more sense to try and reach people in a forum wherein somebody is asking questions or making comments that can be addressed specifically.

People who are polarized and already on one side of the issue aren't likely to be swayed by comments from the other side. Newbies who don't know either stance might take the trouble to try and see both viewpoints before they make a choice that involves time and money. That would be my hope.

He said this. I said that. Maybe somebody will check both statemenets and then come to an informed decision. I'm not claiming the path to truth and righteousness; only that I believe what I say is true, and I believe it will stand up to scrutiny when compared to what someone else claims.

Me, I don't think this is unreasonable.

A person looking to begin silat training who comes to a silat forum might need such information; somebody who is training in kung fu who happens across an article about silat in a magazine might find it interesting, but they don't have the same interest. Or need.

Kiai Carita

27-Mar-2006, 04:25 PM

Thanks for your informed perspective Kiai Carita. I don't study silat as of yet, though i have been looking for someone in my area who might be a worthy teacher. As you know, i was drawn to this forum for discussion on keris. This thread has left a very bad taste in my mouth for this art in America. But perhaps there is still hope out there. Do silat schools talk this way about each other in Indonesia? Maybe i need to come there to study. :)

Peace to all,

Nechesh, unfortunately in Indonesia some silat schools do biker and fight. In Madiun there is often an anual 'war' where tens of thousands of silat students run amock in a 'war' against a cousin school. Often the military and police can't stop them. Some sociologists have studied this phenomenon and found that the schools raise alot of money from new enrolments and they compete for students.

There are, however, very good silat schools in Indonesia who have representatives in the USA. Guru Yana is son of Cimande who teaches Perisai Diri in the US. My school, PGB Bangau Putih is a respected school and has google-able schools scattered around the US and the US trainers are very good and dedicated.

The bikering we see about Serak is more a reflection of the quality of the Pendekar who brought the art to the US. Maybe these people were not yet ready to become Gurus. There is a saying in Indonesia: menepuk air di dulang, basah muka sendiri : slap water in a tray, wet your own face...meaning that when you talk ill about your own family, you disgrace yourself too.

It is sad that silat schools biker and fight, but at least in the US you don't have thousands of pesilats with machetes come after you for saying something unfavourable against their school. In alot of ways the US pesilat have more hormat towards civil society and the rule of law in comparisson to Indonesian pesilat, the majority of whom are from the villages.

Nechesh, I hope this doesn't put you off silat as it is still the best self-defence art in the world. And it will so compliment your keris passion too.

Warm Salaams to all,
KC

Orang Jawa

28-Mar-2006, 01:21 AM

Peace to all,

Nechesh, unfortunately in Indonesia some silat schools do biker and fight. In Madiun there is often an anual 'war' where tens of thousands of silat students run amock in a 'war' against a cousin school. Often the military and police can't stop them. Some sociologists have studied this phenomenon and found that the schools raise alot of money from new enrolments and they compete for students.

Really?????? I have not heard sort of things...ten thousand silat students fighting each other on the street? The casualty must be very high, huh?
I don't know Kiai, when I went home to Indonesia, Karate and Tae Kwond Do school is in every corner of the street. Silat was not that popular at all. As a matter of facts, many silat teacher combined the silat with Karate and Tae Kwon Do, the ranks and the belts are also borrow from them. In my years of learning silat, I have never wore belts or shash. We just don't have it.

There are, however, very good silat schools in Indonesia who have representatives in the USA. Guru Yana is son of Cimande who teaches Perisai Diri in the US. My school, PGB Bangau Putih is a respected school and has google-able schools scattered around the US and the US trainers are very good and dedicated.

I also can vouch to American silat teachers...Some of them are very very good, solid, and knowledgable. And some of them are Wannabee. :)

The bikering we see about Serak is more a reflection of the quality of the Pendekar who brought the art to the US. Maybe these people were not yet ready to become Gurus. There is a saying in Indonesia: menepuk air di dulang, basah muka sendiri : slap water in a tray, wet your own face...meaning that when you talk ill about your own family, you disgrace yourself too.

Well, most serak teachers are Dutch-Indo from Holland, their Serak is originated from Indonesia. Again, I'm not going to bring back the skeleton here. But most of the Serak or Sera practitioner are good silat players. The sad things is that some of them do not practice what they have been preaching..the Adat and hormat or Sopan Santun.

It is sad that silat schools biker and fight, but at least in the US you don't have thousands of pesilats with machetes come after you for saying something unfavourable against their school. In alot of ways the US pesilat have more hormat towards civil society and the rule of law in comparisson to Indonesian pesilat, the majority of whom are from the villages.

I think westerner are more civiliazed and plust we have what we called a law suit. And most westerner do not carry machetes, they carry .45/3.57/9mm. A good stuff to stop people with machetes dead on their tracks.
I'm still don't believe that in Indonesia, thousand of silat students fighting each other on the streets :bang:

Nechesh, I hope this doesn't put you off silat as it is still the best self-defence art in the world. And it will so compliment your keris passion too.

I'm not Nechesh, just a silat student who love the arts.

Warm Salaams to all,
KC[/QUOTE

Likewise Kiai,
Tristan

tellner

28-Mar-2006, 05:26 AM

"A prophet is not without honor save in his own country."

If it's popular and from far away I suppose people will buy it. The same thing is happening to the traditional martial arts of India.

It's a tragedy and a crying shame. I just hope that Silat doesn't end up like a number of other cultural practices - preserved mostly by foreigners.

Kiai Carita

28-Mar-2006, 10:55 AM

Really?????? I have not heard sort of things...ten thousand silat students fighting each other on the street? The casualty must be very high, huh?
I don't know Kiai, when I went home to Indonesia, Karate and Tae Kwond Do school is in every corner of the street. Silat was not that popular at all. As a matter of facts, many silat teacher combined the silat with Karate and Tae Kwon Do, the ranks and the belts are also borrow from them. In my years of learning silat, I have never wore belts or shash. We just don't have it. ..... ......

Tristan

Peace to all,

Mas Tristan, sadly what I say is true. Check http://menkslek.tripod.com and srcoll down to the article titled "Melacak Akar Konflik Antar Perguruan Silat di Karisidenan Madiun" and you will get a more authorotative picture. If you find some key words and google around using them you might get an even better picture. Jawapos.com has a very regional news section where you can read about the rural areas as well. The fights are not conducted using silat moves and are nothing to watch and the casuallities are usually the residents houses, glass windows and terracotta roof tiles from stone throwing. Seen a New Order political campaign mob on trucks and motorbikes? It is that sort of crowd that goes beserck.

Karate and Taekwondo and now also Wushu are popular in the cities of Indonesia but in the rural regions pencak silat is still what people do. My village is in the Madiun region and in my village there are Pagar Nusa, Cempaka Putih, SH Terate, and Kera Sakti. And there is not one 'foreign' martial arts school at all.

I agree with you, Mas Tristan, that things like belts and uniforms are a modern addition to Pencak Silat taken from not only the Japanese, but also in dialogue with the Government of the Netherlands East Indies where the skills of pendekars were used by the powers that be and the ideas of modern organisations began to grow. The birth of the first more modernly organized silat school in Indonesia was in the second decade of the 20th century, following the first Traders Union: the beginning of Setia Hati.

From reading posts on the web it would seem that although the people who brought Serak were able fighters and pendekars, they were maybe still at the level of a jago and were not yet at the maturity of someone called a Guru, who according to Jawanese, must be digugu lan ditiru meaning worthy of being trusted and also being copied. A jago is an expert, someone who has amazing technical skills and is able to execute them again and again.

Often a jago is feared and in the colonial days they were often employed as foremen in the Dutch plantation industries. A Guru silat is a level higher than a jago and should also be a model of adab (civility) and sopan-santun (good manners) and not quarrel with people let alone with his family but rather he / she should always improve the condition of life in his / her immediate environment. Maybe I can say a Guru Silat must be a Jago who has a proven record of social, cultural and educational commitment on top of a knowledge of religion and/or spirituality. I am sure that there are good Guru silat of various races in the US, Mas Tristan: you are also one, I believe, tiyang Jawi.

Warm salaams to all,
KC

Orang Jawa

28-Mar-2006, 11:44 AM

Karate and Taekwondo and now also Wushu are popular in the cities of Indonesia but in the rural regions pencak silat is still what people do. My village is in the Madiun region and in my village there are Pagar Nusa, Cempaka Putih, SH Terate, and Kera Sakti. And there is not one 'foreign' martial arts school at all.

Matur suwun Kiai Carita,
My appology, I thought they were a civil war going on in Indonesia, where thousands of silat practioners from one perguruan invaded another perguruan with machetes. I called my brother who lived in Jakarta, he said he never heard such of things. Now I understand what you are talking about. In the rural areas, things like that can happen. Considering the elements, situation, and environment.

I agree with you, Mas Tristan, that things like belts and uniforms are a modern addition to Pencak Silat taken from not only the Japanese, but also in dialogue with the Government of the Netherlands East Indies where the skills of pendekars were used by the powers that be and the ideas of modern organisations began to grow. The birth of the first more modernly organized silat school in Indonesia was in the second decade of the 20th century, following the first Traders Union: the beginning of Setia Hati.

I know we going to agree on something! :rolleyes:

From reading posts on the web it would seem that although the people who brought Serak were able fighters and pendekars, they were maybe still at the level of a jago and were not yet at the maturity of someone called a Guru, who according to Jawanese, must be digugu lan ditiru meaning worthy of being trusted and also being copied. A jago is an expert, someone who has amazing technical skills and is able to execute them again and again.

Yes, yes! This is that I've been trying to tell everyone in the USA. I've been teaching over three decades and I forbid my students to call me Guru. But yet many silat player call themselve a Guru Besar or Maha Guru. I think it is a matter of perceptions. Indonesian born like us, interpreted the word Guru different than people in the west. They only translate the word Guru means teacher, therefore, some of them feel unworthy to be called guru after teaching so many years. So they called themselves Maha Guru or Guru Besar. For us, it was unimaginable acts, my silat teacher and his silat teacher have been in the arts all their life, Pak Lek is 86 years old. They never call themself a guru. But again is only our opinion, and they entittle to their own opinion, eventhough they are using Silat Indonesian origin. NO biggie here. :rolleyes:
I have to assure you and everyone that I'm not a guru. :eek:
Makan gak makan asal kumpul!
Tristan

Wali

28-Mar-2006, 03:28 PM

[COLOR=RoyalBlue]
Indonesian born like us, interpreted the word Guru different than people in the west. They only translate the word Guru means teacher,[/QUOTE]

Hi Tristan,

Not all westeners have this perception. In the system I practice, there is only one guru, and she alone holds the title.

The rest of us are her students, regardless of how good/bad we are at silat. It's as simple as that for us.

Cheers,
Wali

Steve Perry

28-Mar-2006, 06:59 PM

[COLOR=RoyalBlue]
Indonesian born like us, interpreted the word Guru different than people in the west. They only translate the word Guru means teacher,

Ah, but here is the problem: Those of us who were born in the west have a foot in two camps. As Americans, we speak our language -- most of us in the U.S. are okay with English -- but many of the first-generation teachers of eastern martial arts did not speak that tonguje very well when they arrived here. So they used their terminology -- sapu, beset, dalam, guru -- when trying to explain things to their students. Not having Bahasa Indonesian or Javanese or Malay, a lot of times Americans either misheard or misunderstood. I recall the first article in Black Belt about silat I could find, and the reporter called the art "Bukulan."

As I understand the history, the term "Pentjak Silat" itself has only been around for sixty or seventy years; before it, the art was called a whole bunch of other things.

The word "guru" is also used in India, where it is more often meant as "teacher," and was in common use for yoga and meditation instructors before silat became known to any degree in the U.S.

I suspect that eventually, much of what is taught in karate or judo or silat will become more Americanized and many Japanese or Indonesian or Malay words will fade. Sapu or beset will become sweep or foot-drag.

The honorific of "Guru" for one's teacher is not really different from "Sensei," or "Sifu" or other traditional martial arts terms. Adding "Maha," which can mean several things to Indonesians, among them "great" to show respect? I don't see anything wrong with that. My teacher doesn't call himself "Maha Guru," but I do in public. Nobody made me do so, I decided that on my own. Compared to some teachers, I feel he is great, and I am happy to let people know that.

If you are okay with somebody calling you "teacher," then "guru" ought not to be a problem generally, unless your custom forbids it. In the west, there generally is not any such prohibition.

In our system, there is only one Pendekar, that title reserved for the style's lineage holder, and I'm guessing that is going to go away, too, given that the lineage after the current Pendekar passes is going to be something of a dead-end ...

Tuankaki

28-Mar-2006, 07:38 PM

I always took Guru to mean "teacher" nothing more or less, just as Steve says, like Sensei, or Sifu, or Guro. As for Maha Guru, I was told that it was akin to "Professor", indicating some level of "post graduate" work.

It came to have a secondary connotation attributable to highly experienced teachers who went on to create their own synthesis or expression of the art(s), as embodied in their teaching structure (beyond mere personal flair). We also referred to this as a sort of super-Djurusan Combinase.

So from my little corner of the world, Maha Guru might apply to Guru Victor, for the creation of Tongkat, Guru Bob Vanatta, for the creation of Bledek, and Guru Plinck for his continuing unique contibutions to Serak (such that we recognize it). Guys like Guru Cliff Stewart, for his L.A. Kilat, or Guro Ken Pannell for Sikal, etc. Admittedly these are all American examples, and to my hearing, only one of the people I cited above has ever demanded to be addressed as such.

There are a couple of others who would fit this description, but maybe in their example the naming convention falls a little short, as they are already accustomed to being referred to as Pendekars.

Gajah Silat

28-Mar-2006, 07:49 PM

Oh oh, the can of worms has been re-opened :rolleyes: Here we go again!

The word guru is indeed of sanskrit origin and the most literal translation is 'bringer of light'.

So from an American perspective it's all very simple. Guru = Teacher. "I teach (or have been given authority to teach), therefore I am a Guru". English, but particularly the American use of English, is very explicit where meaning is concerned.

Now in Indonesia things are not so cut and dry. Things can be very implicit. A direct and concise meaning is not always apparent. It's got a lot to do with both physical and social context. So calling oneself 'Maha Guru' would be considered very improper, even kasar, at least a bit GR!

So it seems to me there will always be a problem with interpretation and cultural context with this one. We do seem to be locked in an endless circular arguement :o .

With regard to terminology, I personally, would hate to see the original terms replaced with English ones. I feel that we would lose something by that. I feel that using terms such as sapu add to the learning experience and add context and meaning. This in turn seems to give things more er...power I suppose. But that's just me :rolleyes:

Finally, I call my teacher by his name. Although, he holds many high level certificates and ranks in a number of arts, we have never discussed this. Neither have we discussed terms like Guru etc.

Orang Jawa

28-Mar-2006, 10:03 PM

The honorific of "Guru" for one's teacher is not really different from "Sensei," or "Sifu" or other traditional martial arts terms. Adding "Maha," which can mean several things to Indonesians, among them "great" to show respect? I don't see anything wrong with that. My teacher doesn't call himself "Maha Guru," but I do in public. Nobody made me do so, I decided that on my own. Compared to some teachers, I feel he is great, and I am happy to let people know that.

If you are okay with somebody calling you "teacher," then "guru" ought not to be a problem generally, unless your custom forbids it. In the west, there generally is not any such prohibition.

Brother Steve,
I respectfully disagree, but its okay, though. Eventhough I've been in the USA since 1968, I still hold the meaning Guru diffrent than you or Tuan Kaki and the rest of silat platyers. A guru title is earned not given or issued. If a students out of respect would like to call their teacher a Maha Guru and if the teacher accepted, than that is nothing wrong with that. I personally as a silat student would not accept those tittle. With all do respect, of course.

In our system, there is only one Pendekar, that title reserved for the style's lineage holder, and I'm guessing that is going to go away, too, given that the lineage after the current Pendekar passes is going to be something of a dead-end

I can't comment with the title Pendekar...is really out of my league. :rolleyes:
Cheers,
Tristan

Gajah Silat

28-Mar-2006, 10:23 PM

I think I'll bail out of this one before we get onto 'pusaka' ;)

I've a feeling this thread isn't over yet :p

Selamat malam everyone

Steve Perry

28-Mar-2006, 11:41 PM

I think I'll bail out of this one before we get onto 'pusaka' ;)

I've a feeling this thread isn't over yet :p

Well, okay, let's talk about terminlogy. This board is -- most of the time -- carried on in English. I suspect most of the posters have English or American English either as a first language, or a pretty good second one. So we use that tongue. And in doing so, the most common meanings of words in English are the ones we'll most likely use unless it is pointed out otherwise.

"Guru" has different meanings, but in an English dictionary, it means teacher, usually connected to spiritual matters in Hinduism or Buddhism. It also means teacher of other things, the key word here being "teacher."

The problem comes in when we use the English meaning, as opposed to the Malaysian or Indonesian meaning. Actually, if you have an Indonesian dictionary, the kamus doesn't really help, because mine says "guru" means "teacher," "mentor," "master." Hello?

So now we are talking about idiomatic structure, in which a literal word or phrase actually means something else to a speaker of that language than the defintion.

And, of course, the only way you can know such idioms is to be fluent in the language, and not just the root, but a locale. Mexican Spanish is not Castillian as spoken in Spain, or Cuban, or Central American when it comes to such idioms.

Call somebody in Mexico a "flower-picker," it doesn't really mean that he picks flowers, it is a derogatory remark about his sexual preference. Refer to "los ping-pongs" in L.A. Spanglish, you aren't talking about a game with paddles, but somebody's family jewels.

But, since "guru" is in common useage in this country as meaning "teacher," as are "sensei," and "sifu," even if that's not precisely what they mean, then it's something we have to live with.

For years, I used to fight against the word "hopefully," which most people use incorrectly.

If somebody asks you, "You think our team will win the game?" and you answer "Hopefully." that's wrong. What you mean is, "I hope."

I gave it up, it was like bailing against the tide. And eventually it will come to mean that. English is polyglot, and words shift meaning all the time.

"He was livid" does not mean he got red in the face.

When I was a boy, "gay" mean happy. "He's a gay fellow." did not mean what it means when people say it today ...

Orang Jawa

29-Mar-2006, 12:11 AM

Who is a true Guru? Is he the one that teaches worldly education? Is he one that that explores properties of matter? No, they are only teachers. Is one who teaches a manthra or Vedanata a Guru? No, we may call them Acharyas, not Gurus. People consider a person who imparts knowledge as a preceptor. But most of them are mere teachers, not preceptors (Gurus). A teacher who teaches others has had a teacher himself. The one who has no Guru above him is the true Guru.

The true meaning of Guru is "one who dispels darkness of ignorance". "Gu" means "darkness of ignorance" and "Ru" means "one who removes". Another meaning for Guru is "One who reveals the Guri (target) to the disciple". He does this by removing the darkness of ignorance. Guri here refers to the Atmic principle present in every human being.

The real Guru who can reveal the Atmic principle is a Jnaanamurthy (embodiment of wisdom); He is the very embodiment of Divine principles; and He is one who takes upon Himself a form to teach the same to the disciple; he is God Himself.
Another meaning of the word Guru is "one who is beyond attributes and forms". Gu stands for Gunaatheetha - one who transcends the three Gunas (Satva, Rajas and Thamas); Ru stands for Rupavarjitha - one who is formless. The One who is beyond all attributes and forms is none other than the Supreme Self (the Brahmam) who is resident within each of us. Only God can be regarded as One who is beyond attributes and forms.
Guru is Brahma, who is the Creator of the universe. Guru is Vishnu who is all pervasive and is also the Doer in the universe. Guru is Maheshvara who commands and ordains everything in the universe in the right manner. Guru is not one who merely teaches. A real Guru is Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent, He is God Himself.
There is only one Guru, that is God and there is no other Guru. We have to recognize Him as our only preceptor. He is the preceptor of preceptors. Realizing that God dwells within us, we must treat God as the universal Guru and the preceptor for mankind and contemplate on Him.
Let us purify our hearts to let the Divine dwell in it. Let us install God, our Sadguru, in our hearts. The vibrations that emanate from from the heart will elevate us and confer Divine Wisdom on us. Bhagavan Baba

tim_stl

29-Mar-2006, 03:51 PM

Kiai Carita

29-Mar-2006, 04:45 PM

in bahasa, how does one refer to a teacher in general, such as a schoolteacher? i've asked some friends from surabaya this question, and they answered 'guru.' perhaps, in the context of silat, guru has more meaning. if you want to refer to someone as a teacher of silat, is there a way apart from 'guru silat' that avoids the implications?
tim

Peace to all,

In the Indonesian silat world the word guru does have more meaning. A Primary School teacher would be called a 'guru SD' and there would be little prestige except in rural areas for the word guru used to describe him. In a remote village, some might call Mr Suko the Primary teacher Guru Suko and that would be very respectful.

In the silat world, the title guru is taken much more seriously and although it means the same, the meaning is heavier.

In the silat world the title guru is usually reserved for the founders or leaders of a school. People who just teach silat but are not considered mature enough in other areas of life, are called 'pelatih silat' : silat trainers, even though they are technically guru silat, they would not be addressed by the general public as Guru.

A Guru in the silat sense must be able to bring life to his environment. He must be able to sustain his pupils materially and spiritually and must be trustworthy too. And most important, becoming a Guru is not something one does oneself. A Guru exists because (s)he has pupils and it is the pupils and the general public who will give the title to the Guru.

Warm salaams to all,
Kiai Carita

Orang Jawa

30-Mar-2006, 08:11 PM

I'm agree wholeheartly with Kiai, it is a normal for Indonesian born understood the meaning of guru in pencak silat. The issue here is about the tittle usage in the West. When someone asked us the meaning of Guru, instead of listening to us, since this is our culture, they don't. Instead, they don't want to hear it, and they started to tell us or preach of how and what the proper way to use the tittle Guru or Mahaguru. Is that odd or what?
I can't figure that out.
Tristan

Gajah Silat

30-Mar-2006, 10:41 PM

:D :D :D

Quote Steve
Actually, if you have an Indonesian dictionary, the kamus doesn't really help, because mine says "guru" means "teacher," "mentor," "master." Hello?

Mate, if you can find any exact word for word translations in a kamus you'll be lucky. :rolleyes:

You usualy get a good 8 or 9 'sort of's' though. :D

This is what I mean by implicit. It's often as much about the context as the word. These shifts can be very subtle.

The meaning is dependant on circumstance.

From personal experience I can tell you the scope for misunderstandings is endless. I have embarrassed myself with 'the right words' many times :o :D

Ok, example. Look bajing up in a kamus. It's squirrel. Easy ;)

So, what does bajingan mean :confused: :D :D

tellner

31-Mar-2006, 07:06 AM

And, of course, the word will mean exactly the same thing with just the same nuances wherever you go in that huge mass of islands. And everyone will use the same word for the same thing :bang:

Kiai Carita

31-Mar-2006, 07:35 AM

:D :D :D

Mate, if you can find any exact word for word translations in a kamus you'll be lucky. :rolleyes:

..... . Look bajing up in a kamus. It's squirrel. Easy ;)

So, what does bajingan mean :confused: :D :D

Mas Gajah,

Bajing means squirrel, but bajingan means ox-cart driver, although it is more commonly taken to mean scoundrel. Now, what is the meaning of bajing lompat?

Warm salaams to all,
KC

Kiai Carita

31-Mar-2006, 07:59 AM

... When someone asked us the meaning of Guru, instead of listening to us, since this is our culture, they don't. Instead, they don't want to hear it, and they started to tell us or preach of how and what the proper way to use the tittle Guru or Mahaguru. Is that odd or what?
I can't figure that out.
Tristan

Mas Tristan,

Maybe, because of the imagined importance of tittles in silat, people who teach silat in the West sought to gain and use these exotic tittles for themselves for 'credibility'. This credibility is very important because these people are out to sell their silat in the Western MA-dojo market and many have been succesfull. And as accepting mistake in use of the tittles Guru, Maha Guru, Guru Besar, Pendekar Agung, and so on, is imagined to have negative effect on their credibility, they chose to be defensive and lecture about the correct use of the word instead.

But of course they are mistakes. And making these linguistic-cultural mistakes should not mean that the silat offered is inferior. Just means you don't know the culture too deeply.

Mas Tristan, I looked up your web page last night and really enjoyed watching your silat. As you say you have been in the USA since 1968 I might mention that there was one aspect that made me think : look, silat is evolving and getting a US flavor even in the hands of Orang Jawa!

A light question for silat lovers: what aspect of Mas Tristan's silat as seen in the videos of his web-majalah, has been Americanised? :D :D :D

Please forgive any misplaced words,

Warm salaams and hormat to all,

Kiai Carita.

Steve Perry

31-Mar-2006, 08:46 AM

Mas Tristan,

Maybe, because of the imagined importance of tittles in silat, people who teach silat in the West sought to gain and use these exotic tittles for themselves for 'credibility'. This credibility is very important because these people are out to sell their silat in the Western MA-dojo market and many have been succesfull. And as accepting mistake in use of the tittles Guru, Maha Guru, Guru Besar, Pendekar Agung, and so on, is imagined to have negative effect on their credibility, they chose to be defensive and lecture about the correct use of the word instead.

Um, if this is in reference to my post on the matter, I respectfully disagree. My teacher shows a handful of students his art in the back of an unheated machine shop on a concrete floor. Very hot in the summer, very cold in the winter, and the roof leaks back there by the door. My instructor could tell us to call him "Buffalo Bob" and it wouldn't affect what he knows. What is important is what is on the floor. For us, all the rest is a distant second.

He will, from time to time, take on new students. The newbies are almost always referred by current students. You have to know where we are, and you need to know somebody to even get there.

I will stipulate that native Indonesians know more about their culture than I or most Americans do. But we aren't in Java, we are in the U.S. (those of us pointing out what we thing "guru" means, anyhow) and we use our native language and our experience to made do.

"Guru," by the way, came from Sanskrit by way of Hindi and Punjabi, and its original meaning was "weighty," or "grave;" "venerable." Indonesians borrowed the term and caused it to mean something else, vis a vis silat, and we rude Americans are doing the same thing they did. The term (along with "Guro,")has been in use in the U.S. for at least forty years, in regard to silat, and longer in yoga and meditation circles. So I said, we might be doing it "wrong," but that ship has sailed. What it means here is not what it means there, and since we are here ...

I've been calling my teacher "Guru" for ten years. It doesn't bother me, it doesn't bother him, and I'll leave it to Brother Tristan to offer what he thinks of Stevan Plinck insofar as his credibility ...

Kiai Carita

31-Mar-2006, 08:56 AM

I've been calling my teacher "Guru" for ten years. It doesn't bother me, it doesn't bother him, and I'll leave it to Brother Tristan to offer what he thinks of Stevan Plinck insofar as his credibility ...
[/FONT]

Mr Perry,

As long as it is you who calls Mr Plinck, Guru; and not Mr Plinck who refers to himself as Guru, that is culturally correct. He is your Guru. To be called Guru (silat) by the general public though, usually one must have a proven track-record of 'social-work' such as in healing and leadership. I think that in your case you are using the word Guru in perfect cultural context :D :D :D .

Warm salaams to all,
KC

Orang Jawa

31-Mar-2006, 12:29 PM

Brother Steve said:I've been calling my teacher "Guru" for ten years. It doesn't bother me, it doesn't bother him, and I'll leave it to Brother Tristan to offer what he thinks of Stevan Plinck insofar as his credibility ...
**********************
I'm with Brother Stevan all the way! He is a brilliant silat player, a good teacher, straight talker, a good Sate maker, a fine guitar player, and most of all, a good human being. All I can say to his students, You are a lucky to have him as a silat teacher and friend. Stevan can be my wingman say to speak, anytime and anyplace, and he always welcome to my cave. :)

Salam Kiai,
The video clip that on my website is from a seminar the I gave at Bob Orlando school. It may not gave you the whole picture of what was introduce that day, am I being defensive here :)
Bob Orlando is another fine silat player, slightly different mixture than silat I know, but yet fundamentally the same. His silat was heavily influenced by Kuntau/chinese origin.
As far as being Americanised? Hmm, blamed it on the Old Silat Magazine :) Basically all the techniques are the same, the applications or the entry to apply the techniques are adjusted. The American have tendency to hit fast and hard, so you may have to give them a wake up call (a meaningfull hit or a control) otherwise you may be hit the floor before you can say: Mommy! :)
Peace and Be Well,
Tristan

Kiai Carita

31-Mar-2006, 12:41 PM

... Salam Kiai,
The video clip that on my website is from a seminar the I gave at Bob Orlando school. It may not gave you the whole picture of what was introduce that day, am I being defensive here :) Bob Orlando is another fine silat player, slightly different mixture than silat I know, but yet fundamentally the same. His silat was heavily influenced by Kuntau/chinese origin.
As far as being Americanised? Hmm, blamed it on the Old Silat Magazine :) Basically all the techniques are the same, the applications or the entry to apply the techniques are adjusted. The American have tendency to hit fast and hard, so you may have to give them a wake up call (a meaningfull hit or a control) otherwise you may be hit the floor before you can say: Mommy! :)
Peace and Be Well,
Tristan

Salam kembali, Mas Tristan...

About being Americanised...I never meant the movement, not even the tempo. :D :D

Rather I think that the verbal sound effects are American...you go Bang! Bam! and so on, while in Indonesia the verbal sound effects are more along the lines of Bet! Set! Dhep! Dhes! Also the photo pose like the 'I Want YOU for the US Army' posters, with your index finger pointing out towards the camera. :D :D :D

Salam hormat to all,

Kiai Carita

Gajah Silat

31-Mar-2006, 05:48 PM

And, of course, the word will mean exactly the same thing with just the same nuances wherever you go in that huge mass of islands. And everyone will use the same word for the same thing :bang:

This illustrates my point :)

Don't get me wrong, I'm not commenting on right or wrong here. Just that the reasons for the shift in meaning are pretty obvious.

So the whole 'Guru' arguement could go around in circles ad infinitum(it seems like it has already).

At least now everyone seems to respectfully agreeing to disagree :)

Kiai
Bajing means squirrel, but bajingan means ox-cart driver, although it is more commonly taken to mean scoundrel. Now, what is the meaning of bajing lompat?

You got me there! Aside from jumping squirrel, I don't know any 'street' meaning or maki maki of this :confused:

Was just using the example to show how easily things can get confused.

Oh and while I'm here, I think many of you might find this of interest.

http://wwwlib.murdoch.edu.au/adt/browse/view/adt-MU20040210.100853

Selamat malam

GS

Kiai Carita

31-Mar-2006, 07:35 PM

...
You got me there! Aside from jumping squirrel, I don't know any 'street' meaning or maki maki of this :confused:

.....

Oh and while I'm here, I think many of you might find this of interest.

http://wwwlib.murdoch.edu.au/adt/browse/view/adt-MU20040210.100853

Selamat malam

GS

Great link to Ian Wilson's silat PhD thesis, thank you Gajah! Bajing lompat (jumping squirrel) also means highway robbers who specialize in robbing a truck from it's load by jumping on to moving vehicles and unloading them while to their accomplices on the ground.

salam hormat everyone,
Kiai Carita

mikechoate

24-Nov-2006, 06:32 AM

Well this seems to be an old thread but I just found it and noticed my name mentioned a few times. I have been away from the silat scene for awhile, the BS that has went on around the VDT academy the way senior students were treated being thrown out for various BS made up reasons and then suddenly they were never taught the real Serak all of this left a real bad taste in my mouth it is a total shame to see all of these fine dedicated hard training loyal students bashed by their teacher and fellow students , I don't even know why I was put on the black list and really didn't care at that point i had seen and heard enough allthough it could have been my lack of participation at the time but an abdominable hernia, broken fourth metatarsle do tend slow you down for a bit. I am sure the story is I was never taught anything of value after the Five or Six years I spent with them and I was probably never promoted but oh well.

I could coment on just about every post on this thread with about as much first hand knowlage as anyone in the VDT academy but I won't at this time maybe i will post on each One at a latter date or if anyone wishes to e-mail I would be glade to answer any questions on the subject that I have first hand knowlage of.

I do have on video Guru Bob vaneta being promoted to Maha Guru and being named lineage holder to inherate the system and Pak Vic looked right into the camera and said no one could take that away but I guess things change when you make up the rules as you go along.

Silatyogi

26-Nov-2006, 05:16 AM

Frankly,

I dont see nor have seen anyone from the Pak Vik line Move like PDT or anyone from the PDT line.....Pak Vic's Silat Looks like Aikidosilat :woo:
BASE ANGLE LEVERAGE is a Guru STevan Plinck way of expressing things....(although if you ask Cass Magda he will tell you he came up with that).

Why guru dan inosanto supports pak vic??? Not sure...but if you watch closely Guru Dan's Silat is more "PDT" than Pak Vic and he moves better than those from the Vik line.
Maybe Guru Dan thought he would get something out of Pak Vic that he didn't get from "PDT"? I can't speak for Guru Dan . All i know is his Silat is very good and it doesn't look like PAK VIC.

Any silat is better than no silat but if you want Serak....

Go see Stevan Plink or Cliff Stewart.
infact even Guru Cliff would tell you Guru Stevan is "IT" when it comes to Serak.

Contact Guru Cliff Stewart he has a video tape where Pendekar Paul Dethaours names Stevan Plinck his succesor and the next "Pendekar of Serak" and its in front of Pak Vic. Maybe this video never happened in Pak Vic's mind....I saw the tape multiples Times at Guru Cliff's House its real...

I am sure Guru Cliff would be willing to share that with anyone that contacts him.

Peace

Santiago Dobles

tellner

26-Nov-2006, 05:28 AM

Orang Jawa

26-Nov-2006, 03:08 PM

Guru Plinck has very wisely stayed out of the lineage wars and other Silat mishegas. He stays in the upper left corner of the country and teaches out of garages, welding shops, wherever he doesn't have to pay extra for space. And he's always said "Who cares about titles? I have my Art." or "When I was a kid I wanted to be the best Silat player in the world. Now I want to be the best Silat player I can be."

What more could you ask for?

Salam all,
You got that right Todd, " what more you could ask for?" When lineage, tittles, and ranks are kept in the closet, and the only thing left is practice what your teacher preach and teach, you trully will understand what your teacher teach you, may be not now, but eventually you will discover the "light bulb" moment. ;)

As I had said over and over again, understanding the silat historical background, understanding the movements/techiques WITHOUT ability to perform is like having powder lemonade WITHOUT water.
So we must walk to walk and talk to talk....

I knew Stevan, with all my heart I can vouch for him, he is an excellent silat player and a good human being. What more you could ask for?:)
Peace,
Tristan

Tuankaki

27-Nov-2006, 02:18 AM

the BS that has went on around the VDT academy the way senior students were treated being thrown out for various BS made up reasons
<snip>
I do have on video Guru Bob vaneta being promoted to Maha Guru and being named lineage holder to inherate the system and Pak Vic looked right into the camera and said no one could take that away but I guess things change when you make up the rules as you go along.
Hi Mike, great to hear from you. Yeah, I committed hari-kari by refusing to renounce my friendship with Guru Bob, Ron Miller, Jerry McCleary and Chris Geilen (the day Chris left). As if all those years together on the floor and socially could be erased - not. In fact, there's a little reunion photo of us from our August Reno gathering (6th photo down).

Thankfully now I practice American Dutch-Indo Fu (TM), so I don't have to hear some key"bored" martial artist who has never seen me invoke that same old tired crap to wax generalities about my movement. I wonder if he's ever even seen anyone in that picture move? We'll all be together again in February, practicing aikdo silat, moving all stiff and upright. Should be fun and it will be great to see you again.

Silatyogi

27-Nov-2006, 07:24 PM

Hi Mike, great to hear from you. Yeah, I committed hari-kari by refusing to renounce my friendship with Guru Bob, Ron Miller, Jerry McCleary and Chris Geilen (the day Chris left). As if all those years together on the floor and socially could be erased - not. In fact, there's a little reunion photo of us from our August Reno gathering (6th photo down).

Thankfully now I practice American Dutch-Indo Fu (TM), so I don't have to hear some key"bored" martial artist who has never seen me invoke that same old tired crap to wax generalities about my movement. I wonder if he's ever even seen anyone in that picture move? We'll all be together again in February, practicing aikdo silat, moving all stiff and upright. Should be fun and it will be great to see you again.

I' sorry for insulting you. I mean no disrepsect I just call it how I see it. Yes you are right i never saw YOU move or anyone on that list.
however I did SEE Pak Vic and students of his on tapes "Blitizing hands and Tongkat tapes". And I have students that before studying with me did the "serak" long distance Pak Vic happy meal service which truthfully only made them get "Bad habits" and Bad structural integrity. Maybe Pak Vic is justing "hiding" the art like he "hides" his fist in that silly fighting stance you see all over his website. And maybe he is using a smoke screen to hide the "Secret Serak Buah" by using "aikido" like techniques in His SAMBUTS (which ofcourse look nothing like Pendekar Paul Dethaours Serak Sambuts and Bukti sambuts for that matter). However Pak vic claims they are "Serak" sambuts . Maybe so...I dont know I am not in anyway a master of this stuff.

All I know is my teachers, and People who I have trained with and also experiences which have led me to find out what works in the real world and not just in the "dojo".
I have also seen and own a extensive "SERAK" library of footageplenty of videos of sera, "Serak" , from various sources (Most of my Videos are of Pak Vic, Maurice, Pendekar Paul, Rudy Terlinden, Cass Magda , Guru Plinck, Guru Cliff , anakserak, Wali Songo, ). I have watched and analyzed them all to see the common thread some have it some don't...

And from the look of it all ..if you can make PAK vic's stuff work for you in a fight and in the real world than I take my hat off to you......In the mean time I will stick with PDT, Guru Cliff & Guru Plinck. There is enough video out there to show where stuff was "influence" from and how things have developed. And also how in some cases things have "Digressed".

No offense to you all. I mean none. This should be a place to be able to say what we feel about arts and also maybe help others to go even further in the martial art world. If you would like post some footage of how you MOVE go for it.

Peace

Santiago Dobles

Steve Perry

27-Nov-2006, 09:31 PM

Thankfully now I practice American Dutch-Indo Fu (TM), so I don't have to hear some key"bored" martial artist who has never seen me invoke that same old tired crap to wax generalities about my movement. I wonder if he's ever even seen anyone in that picture move? We'll all be together again in February, practicing aikdo silat, moving all stiff and upright. Should be fun and it will be great to see you again.

I've never said that Pak Vic's people didn't have any moves -- nor would I say that. Some of them certainly do.

I have said that Pak Vic's contention (parroted sometimes loudly by his seniors until they either got booted or left on their own) that the VDT branch of Sera(k) was a) more complete and b) superior to the other branches -- such as the one I'm in -- was, in my opinion, not so.

Having crossed hands in training with some of Pak Vic's seniors, I can see that they indeed have skills. Thus far, though, and even as old and slow and junior a status as I have, none of them have shown me anything for which I didn't have an answer. (Or that my teacher didn't have nine different answers he could use every day of the week and twice that many on Sunday.)

As far as I have been able to determine, Pak Vic and Guru Plinck had the same primary teacher in Silat Sera(k), though each had some other influences. What they did with their training certainly seems to be different, and while their students might feel what they know is superior, thinking it is different than saying it, and both are different than proving it ...

I personally have taken to calling the art I'm learning Pukulan Pentjak Silat Sera Plinck, to make the point that it isn't Victor-style or Paul-style, or Maurice-style and certainly not Willem-style.

Tuankaki

27-Nov-2006, 11:56 PM

I've never said that Pak Vic's people didn't have any moves -- nor would I say that. Some of them certainly do.

I have said that Pak Vic's contention (parroted sometimes loudly by his seniors until they either got booted or left on their own) that the VDT branch of Sera(k) was a) more complete and b) superior to the other branches -- such as the one I'm in -- was, in my opinion, not so.

My comments were not attributed to anything you said about movement, etc. I thought my "Aikido Silat" reference made it clear who/what I was addressing. I find it odd that someone who hasn't posted here since January would jump on here now to make his little contribution at Mike Choate's expense, when all Mike was trying to do was clarify things as they related to the usage of his name here.

As for VDT seniors parroting loudly, I know them all, they've all been to my school in the past 18 months, almost all are currently active and on good terms with Guru Plinck. So I don't know what to say about your post, other than you've been beating that drum for quite a while, and this time, with no provocation on anyone's part. Bob, Ron, Chris, Jerry, Alan, Guy, me, and now my former training partner and peer Mike Choate have been broadly and negatively characterized by someone who has never met us or seen us move. And he came from nowhere and used Mike's post as an opportunity to take his little shot. Like the guy who registered here back in March solely to snipe at me from anonymity.

None of us have spoken with Guru Victor in 2 years. I know you're fond of saying that you have boundless supplies of ink as far as these internet discussions go, so have at it. But also remember that you are the first one to get irritated when someone holds out the olive branch to you and insults you and your training partners at the same time. Why should I react any differently?

Tuankaki

28-Nov-2006, 12:13 AM

I' sorry for insulting you. I mean no disrepsect I just call it how I see it. Yes you are right i never saw YOU move or anyone on that list.
however I did SEE Pak Vic and students of his on tapes "Blitizing hands and Tongkat tapes". And I have students that before studying with me did the "serak" long distance Pak Vic happy meal service which truthfully only made them get "Bad habits" and Bad structural integrity. Maybe Pak Vic is justing "hiding" the art like he "hides" his fist in that silly fighting stance you see all over his website. And maybe he is using a smoke screen to hide the "Secret Serak Buah" by using "aikido" like techniques in His SAMBUTS (which ofcourse look nothing like Pendekar Paul Dethaours Serak Sambuts and Bukti sambuts for that matter). However Pak vic claims they are "Serak" sambuts . Maybe so...I dont know I am not in anyway a master of this stuff.

All I know is my teachers, and People who I have trained with and also experiences which have led me to find out what works in the real world and not just in the "dojo".
I have also seen and own a extensive "SERAK" library of footageplenty of videos of sera, "Serak" , from various sources (Most of my Videos are of Pak Vic, Maurice, Pendekar Paul, Rudy Terlinden, Cass Magda , Guru Plinck, Guru Cliff , anakserak, Wali Songo, ). I have watched and analyzed them all to see the common thread some have it some don't...

And from the look of it all ..if you can make PAK vic's stuff work for you in a fight and in the real world than I take my hat off to you......In the mean time I will stick with PDT, Guru Cliff & Guru Plinck. There is enough video out there to show where stuff was "influence" from and how things have developed. And also how in some cases things have "Digressed".

No offense to you all. I mean none. This should be a place to be able to say what we feel about arts and also maybe help others to go even further in the martial art world. If you would like post some footage of how you MOVE go for it.

Peace

Santiago Dobles
This site has been hard for me to get into for some reason, and I am just now reading your post. I agree that it is a place to say what we feel about the arts, but yelling "fire" in the theater isn't usually appropriate unless there is a fire. You fanned the fire of an almost-extinguished thread on the heels of someone who had nothing to say on the topic of whose art is superior, etc., and decided that we should all value your contribution to the thread. I didn't value it. Your post and posts like it are what perpetuates the animosities between the lines. Pretty soon we're not going to be able to blame the de Thouars brothers for it any more. Then it will be on guys like you.

I might voice an opinion that Berklee-trained guitarists suck at progressive metal, and that if you wanted to learn the REAL thing you should go to Musician's Institue in L.A. It's just an opinion, right? I'm sure you would be big enough not to take offense, especially if I'd never heard you play. Right? Sure.

Silatyogi

28-Nov-2006, 01:03 AM

This site has been hard for me to get into for some reason, and I am just now reading your post. I agree that it is a place to say what we feel about the arts, but yelling "fire" in the theater isn't usually appropriate unless there is a fire. You fanned the fire of an almost-extinguished thread on the heels of someone who had nothing to say on the topic of whose art is superior, etc., and decided that we should all value your contribution to the thread. I didn't value it. Your post and posts like it are what perpetuates the animosities between the lines. Pretty soon we're not going to be able to blame the de Thouars brothers for it any more. Then it will be on guys like you.

I might voice an opinion that Berklee-trained guitarists suck at progressive metal, and that if you wanted to learn the REAL thing you should go to Musician's Institue in L.A. It's just an opinion, right? I'm sure you would be big enough not to take offense, especially if I'd never heard you play. Right? Sure.

Well that is true I have been absent from this board for many reasons one being related to work with berklee trained crappy progressive music recording :)...(Although Berklee is not much to esteem about.......But Steve Vai & Jon Petrucci went to berklee they seemed to do OK for themselves in the prog world..I don't know of any proggers that made it from MI with the exception of Paul Gilbert...) . The other is lack of time and Family needing attention.

I dont really look at the dates when posting or reading these threads. That is sort of irrelevent to me. I just read what interests me when I have time and I make a post if I feel like it. You don't have to value it at all. I am just putting in my 2 cents. You may not agree with what I have to share or say. I having studied Serak, Sera, or whatever you want to call it and having also completed my Sera training with my teacher I should be able to look at something and or read something and be able to make an opinion on it if I feel like it. Unfortunately everyone who has studied Serak in the USA has had to deal with some sort of dishonesty or mystery at somepoint about what they are being taught and or what they are doing whether its the PDT line, or the Pak Vic line or whatever.

I am sorry I just still dont get it why people are training with Pak Vic & why Dan Inosanto is still backing him up. Maybe I am missing something? Please explain to me what it is.

As I mentioned before after having seen videos of all the brothers (dethaours), and various teachers of silat and also training with different "Serak" teachers I have made up my own mind as to what works for me. And as I have said before if it works for you in a fight I take my hat off to you in honour. And I mean that. Its like guitar....Look at what Django did with 2 fingers....not choice way to play but he made it work. If you can do that with Pak Vic's Silat and fight with that "hiding the fist behind the Palm" stance than everything is Gravy.

Again sorry for offending anyone. I really wish all silat players the best regardless of what line you come from. In the end it doesn't matter.

Peace

Santiago Dobles

Tuankaki

28-Nov-2006, 02:35 AM

I dont really look at the dates when posting or reading these threads. That is sort of irrelevent to me. I just read what interests me when I have time and I make a post if I feel like it. You don't have to value it at all. I am just putting in my 2 cents. You may not agree with what I have to share or say. I having studied Serak, Sera, or whatever you want to call it and having also completed my Sera training with my teacher I should be able to look at something and or read something and be able to make an opinion on it if I feel like it. Unfortunately everyone who has studied Serak in the USA has had to deal with some sort of dishonesty or mystery at somepoint about what they are being taught and or what they are doing whether its the PDT line, or the Pak Vic line or whatever.

I am sorry I just still dont get it why people are training with Pak Vic & why Dan Inosanto is still backing him up. Maybe I am missing something? Please explain to me what it is.

As I mentioned before after having seen videos of all the brothers (dethaours), and various teachers of silat and also training with different "Serak" teachers I have made up my own mind as to what works for me. And as I have said before if it works for you in a fight I take my hat off to you in honour. And I mean that. Its like guitar....Look at what Django did with 2 fingers....not choice way to play but he made it work. If you can do that with Pak Vic's Silat and fight with that "hiding the fist behind the Palm" stance than everything is Gravy.

Again sorry for offending anyone. I really wish all silat players the best regardless of what line you come from. In the end it doesn't matter.

Peace

Santiago DoblesI understand why people are vocal and proactive in rendering their opinions about Guru Victor (notice I don't use the title "Pak" - that is a term of affection). It's just that in this case, if you haven't read through the whole thread, his current students got raked over the coals, and some people continue to take pot shots at his former students. I don't know to what end that they persist in doing this.

I too have lots of Serak videos and have trained with Guru Cliff and the old Bukti "board", Dr. Andre, Guru Plinck, etc. And I have around here somewhere the couple of minutes of you guys doing techniques and such - not the YouTube one, a longer one. So I too know how to watch a video.

As for who chooses to train with who, I try and not hypothesize about all that in a public forum because invariably I'd end up insulting someone. And who knows what that could eventually lead to. Probably a martial arts contest.

Anyhow, I see that you didn't mean to insult me or any of us specifically, just generally ;) . So for now, I'll leave you to get back to those modified Jason Becker-inspired 3-octave triads....

mikechoate

28-Nov-2006, 03:30 AM

Silatyogi

28-Nov-2006, 03:48 AM

I understand why people are vocal and proactive in rendering their opinions about Guru Victor (notice I don't use the title "Pak" - that is a term of affection). It's just that in this case, if you haven't read through the whole thread, his current students got raked over the coals, and some people continue to take pot shots at his former students. I don't know to what end that they persist in doing this.

I too have lots of Serak videos and have trained with Guru Cliff and the old Bukti "board", Dr. Andre, Guru Plinck, etc. And I have around here somewhere the couple of minutes of you guys doing techniques and such - not the YouTube one, a longer one. So I too know how to watch a video.

As for who chooses to train with who, I try and not hypothesize about all that in a public forum because invariably I'd end up insulting someone. And who knows what that could eventually lead to. Probably a martial arts contest.

Anyhow, I see that you didn't mean to insult me or any of us specifically, just generally ;) . So for now, I'll leave you to get back to those modified Jason Becker-inspired 3-octave triads....

Indeed..I wasn't directly trying to insult you nor anyone for that matter if I did I apologize I tend to not have filters and get very passionate when it comes to Serak & Silat....So I apologize.

In the end if what you know can be made to work than its good silat. I have seen people studying with what I consider good silat teachers and still can't make it work it really comes down to the individual's ability to train,process and apply what he or she learns. Now I will say this if you find yourself with a good teacher then stick with it. Anyone good will work to make you better and will teach you to surpass them.

As Guru Cliff says "a little silat goes a long way"

I am off to rehearsals.

Peace

Santiago

Tuankaki

28-Nov-2006, 06:14 AM

Guru Mike, its great to be back and I look forward to Febuary i was allways impressed with Guru Plinck, i had doubts long before I was officially removed and is why I was distancing myself and did't show up to many events twards the end but the removal of the people listed above and hearing Victor telling students not to assciate with them was enough Nobody will tell me whom I can associate with and expect me to comply, if the person who said something about Vics old students bashing Guru Plinck in the past would go back and do some research he would find that I certainly never posted a bad word against Guru Plinck or anyone else for that matter even though the preasure was put on me to do so.Thanks Mike! Guru Plinck is awesome, and I can't imagine that I said anything bad about him, but I have a friend checking the archives from Victor's private board. Yes, there was pressure - BIG TIME for me, as you might imagine - but I don't remember saying anything. If I did, I apologize in advance, and Stevan has certainly long since forgiven me. It's too bad in a way, because as I review all the Bukti djurus and sambuts, Guru Cliff's LA Silat djurus, Guru Victor's Serak djurus, the Tongkat djurus, Dr. Andre's Terlinden djurus, Guru Plinck's djurus, etc., it's obvious that we're all connected. I'm far more interested in what we have in common than in what separates us. Of course, I have no stake in having the "real thing" in terms of my martial arts career goals. Maybe others do. For me, if my career is limited only to the relationships I currently have, then that's more than enough for me. I'm very lucky to count you guys as my friends and training partners, and even luckier to have my students to stimulate my examination of this great art we do, by whatever name.

mikechoate

28-Nov-2006, 06:36 AM

Thanks Mike! Guru Plinck is awesome, and I can't imagine that I said anything bad about him, but I have a friend checking the archives from Victor's private board. Yes, there was pressure - BIG TIME for me, as you might imagine - but I don't remember saying anything. If I did, I apologize in advance, and Stevan has certainly long since forgiven me. It's too bad in a way, because as I review all the Bukti djurus and sambuts, Guru Cliff's LA Silat djurus, Guru Victor's Serak djurus, the Tongkat djurus, Dr. Andre's Terlinden djurus, Guru Plinck's djurus, etc., it's obvious that we're all connected. I'm far more interested in what we have in common than in what separates us. Of course, I have no stake in having the "real thing" in terms of my martial arts career goals. Maybe others do. For me, if my career is limited only to the relationships I currently have, then that's more than enough for me. I'm very lucky to count you guys as my friends and training partners, and even luckier to have my students to stimulate my examination of this great art we do, by whatever name.

Guru Mike , No I don't recall you ever saying anything but good things about Guru Plinck. I was refering to another post by someone else who was commenting about Victor's seniors bashing Guru Plinck and his students not having the real thing ( whatever that is ) I really don't care either and personally don't think anyone has the complete "real thing" or maybe they all do, just different interpretations . If it works, has the essence and you believe in what you are doing, then that's what really counts. At this point in the game, there is no way to be sure with 100% certainty.

Tuankaki

28-Nov-2006, 07:16 AM

If it works, has the essence and you believe in what you are doing, then that's what really counts. You Sir, are the embodiment of that viewpoint.

I need to find someone else to train with you because I don't know if I can take much more of your "philosophy"!

Steve Perry

28-Nov-2006, 06:30 PM

None of us have spoken with Guru Victor in 2 years. I know you're fond of saying that you have boundless supplies of ink as far as these internet discussions go, so have at it. But also remember that you are the first one to get irritated when someone holds out the olive branch to you and insults you and your training partners at the same time. Why should I react any differently?

Point taken. My reaction was, in part, fueled by re-reading the earlier posts to this thread, which ran contrary to what I knew to be true.

It is an old sore spot, I overreacted, and should clarify that not all of Victor's seniors were "parroting loudly" his claims. An unfortunate choice of words on my part, mea culpa, and I hereby apologize to those so offhandedly lumped together.

Mike Roberto's exchanges with me have always been more reasoned than not, and that I chose to use his post as the launching point for my own was not the wisest decision, so a personal apology to Guru Roberto, as well.

My opinion of what constitutes Silat Sera(k) is what it is, and I stand by that, but it was not my intent to cast aspersions on Guru Roberto, who is long divorced from the VDT group and teaching on his own.

PDTBuktiNegara

28-Nov-2006, 08:48 PM

Well I can't deny that Pak Vic has managed to eject everybody who gets very far with his method, and this does cause some problems. But he is *still* a phenomenal coach and teacher of martial arts. You could do a lot worse than train in his method.

<Slanderous comments removed - Dont do it again!>
<Sarge>

you could also do alot better!

Tuankaki

29-Nov-2006, 01:30 AM

Point taken. My reaction was, in part, fueled by re-reading the earlier posts to this thread, which ran contrary to what I knew to be true.

It is an old sore spot, I overreacted, and should clarify that not all of Victor's seniors were "parroting loudly" his claims. An unfortunate choice of words on my part, mea culpa, and I hereby apologize to those so offhandedly lumped together.

Mike Roberto's exchanges with me have always been more reasoned than not, and that I chose to use his post as the launching point for my own was not the wisest decision, so a personal apology to Guru Roberto, as well.

My opinion of what constitutes Silat Sera(k) is what it is, and I stand by that, but it was not my intent to cast aspersions on Guru Roberto, who is long divorced from the VDT group and teaching on his own.

Well, that wasn't at all necessary from my point of view, but thanks VERY much for clearing things up. The only thing I would add here, simply for the record, is that none of the following people EVER said or posted anything, anywhere, that was derogatory toward Guru Plinck. These people were VDT seniors during the past 10 years, who are no longer associated with VDT:

Bob Vanatta, Mike Roberto, Chris Geilen, Mike Choate, Ron Miller, & Jerry McCleary.

There are others who may have been viewed as seniors during this time, but I will not speak for them here, simply because I am not in regular contact with them. That said, I have NEVER heard a single VDT senior speak or post poorly of Guru Plinck or his standing within the art while I was associated with them. Not "some", not "one" --- none.

Guru Bob himself has students that are 10 years or more within the art. I will not name them here, but I consider them seniors and I have never heard any of them speak or post poorly of Guru Plinck.

All of us recognize Guru Plinck as our senior within the art. He is arguably senior to everyone in the PDT line, and many of us have training from that side as well, both from years ago and again more recently under Guru Plinck's guidance. Guru Bob was training with Paul deThouars close to 20 years ago, Ron Miller was training with Paul deThouars over 10 years ago, etc.

I'm not going to involve myself in any of the dick waving, but I felt this was probably the right time to put this particular aspect to rest in the spirit of what a friend calls a "fair and balanced record".

Selamat

Silat4life

29-Nov-2006, 03:34 AM

you could also do alot better!

Really? care to elaborate?

tellner

29-Nov-2006, 03:48 AM

Somewhere in the background I hear valves opening and sparkers striking. The moderators wearily get out the whips, pistols and chairs preparing to herd the combatants back into their cages ;)

Silatyogi

29-Nov-2006, 04:17 AM

Selamat,

Its obvious to everyone that Maha Guru Victor is a controversial figure in pentjak silat circles as are most of his brothers, but whatever your personal feelings about him or any of the brothers are it cannot be denied that they have done tremendous service to promote the Indonesian martial arts in America and even if you have negative thoughts about what they may or may not have done, the arts they teach are rock solid so to imply that there is no value to what can be learned from Pak Vic would be quite incorrect.
Best wishes to you all.

"Ahhhhhh yeeeeeeah about those TPS reports..."

Well lets give credit where credit is really due....If it wasn't for Guru Dan Inosanto's promoting of Silat & the Dethaours Bros, they would have not seen the light they have seen in the martial art community and would have not have had the stage for the public's eye.

peace

Santiago

Silatyogi

29-Nov-2006, 04:27 AM

I possess a good BS detector when it comes to martial arts. And I can say with certainty that Mas Roen Serak is not BS. The Mas Roen phases I am learning now are excellent, and in many ways provide advantages over the superb Mas Djut phases. Strange if the man did not exist, that would make Pak Vic a genius. Ask the folks at the Santa Cruz Silat collective, Roberto, Choate, Gielen, they all got to Phase 6,7,8 with Pak Vic, they will confirm it. Unless they are unwilling to give an unbiased assessment of the Mas Roen material!
Which brings me to another interesting item: Pentjak Silat Soempat. This was the creation of Pak Tisari Mardjoeki, Pak Vic's childhood Serak teacher. (Perhaps Willem remembers Dhaka Mardjoeki, Pak Tisari's son). This an amazing weapon art. It has its own jurus, Pantjar, sambuts, etc.
PG Andrew

I am sure it has some value to it....Post some video on it and I can tell you for sure "where" it comes from and I would almost bet its either a piece of Maurice, Paul, Rudy Terlinden or Inosanto........or better yet Aikido.

Tuankaki

29-Nov-2006, 05:27 AM

Just a note... I edited my post, as I realized that I had incorrectly hyphenated "dick waving". Carry on.

taoizt

29-Nov-2006, 08:57 AM

On a side-note, I'm very curious about some videos of Guru Plinck. Has anyone a good link to a video on YouTube or Google or something else? I have seen him in an old video and back then I wasn't particularly impressed with the moves and found the use of sneakers in Silat very strange, but I guess thats an American thing. I myself am from the Netherlands so have seen and experienced some silat and pukulan. Back then I didn't have a clue about the moves of silat or pukulan but by now I should be able to rate his movements more properly :)

So...anyone have a (recent?) video of the much raved about Steven Plinck?

Greetings and thanx in advance,
Taoizt

Sgt_Major

29-Nov-2006, 09:29 AM

**Whips, pistols and chairs at the ready

But lets stay with the discussion, it'll be cleaner that way ;)

Please gentlemen, lets not dig up old bones and make them dance for us - its really not becoming.

serakmurid

29-Nov-2006, 09:36 AM

Thank you, Sgt Major
I have heard alot of good about Guru Plinck.

mikechoate

30-Nov-2006, 12:27 AM

You Sir, are the embodiment of that viewpoint.

I need to find someone else to train with you because I don't know if I can take much more of your "philosophy"!

Yeh people are allways saying that I'm full of IT!
Maybe that's what thay are refering to.

Silatyogi

03-Dec-2006, 02:27 AM

I having studied Serak, Sera, or whatever you want to call it and having also completed my Sera training with my teacher I should be able to look at something and or read something and be able to make an opinion on it if I feel like it.

Out of respect to everyone here and everyone in the Serak Community and my Teacher Guru Cliff Stewart, I would like to make something very clear.
What I meant by Completing my Sera training was that I had Learned the 18 djurus of Serak as taught to me by my teacher and its Langkahs. It is my teacher's interpretation of Serak not anyone esles. I in no way meant to say that I have "mastered" the art nor had completed PDT's Serak, or studied Pak Vic's Serak nor Guru Plink's Serak. I don't claim to be anything special in the art, just someone very interested in it. I apologize if I offended anyone here & their teachers aswell.

Also to make things clear for others as to what my teacher is teaching.

Guru Cliff Stewart teaches Serak but its only a part of his very own system he has created known as "KILAT". Which is his interpretation of Pencak Silat. A culmination of Bukti Negara, Sera, Cimande, Silek Tuo, Harimau & Pressure Point and over 40 years of Martial Science experience. It contains its own Djurus Seperate of Sera & Bukti Negara.

Thank you and best wishes to all Sera, Serak & Pencak Silat players,

Sincerely,

Santiago Dobles

Wali

03-Dec-2006, 11:54 AM

Out of respect to everyone here and everyone in the Serak Community and my Teacher Guru Cliff Stewart, I would like to make something very clear.
What I meant by Completing my Sera training was that I had Learned the 18 djurus of Serak as taught to me by my teacher and its Langkahs. It is my teacher's interpretation of Serak not anyone esles. I in no way meant to say that I have "mastered" the art nor had completed PDT's Serak, or studied Pak Vic's Serak nor Guru Plink's Serak. I don't claim to be anything special in the art, just someone very interested in it. I apologize if I offended anyone here & their teachers aswell.

Also to make things clear for others as to what my teacher is teaching.

Guru Cliff Stewart teaches Serak but its only a part of his very own system he has created known as "KILAT". Which is his interpretation of Pencak Silat. A culmination of Bukti Negara, Sera, Cimande, Silek Tuo, Harimau & Pressure Point and over 40 years of Martial Science experience. It contains its own Djurus Seperate of Sera & Bukti Negara.

Thank you and best wishes to all Sera, Serak & Pencak Silat players,

Sincerely,

Santiago Dobles
Guru Cliff has also been studying WaliSongo silat recently. A group of us have visited him and his group in L.A a few times. He's quite a character!

taoizt

04-Dec-2006, 09:57 AM

Silatyogi

04-Dec-2006, 06:56 PM

PDTBuktiNegara

04-Dec-2006, 07:42 PM

taoizt

05-Dec-2006, 09:35 AM

Sure there are still some serak players in Holland, but they are pretty much off the radar......so I was curious as to when the serak guys from America will visit Holland :)

Tuankaki

05-Dec-2006, 04:45 PM

Sure there are still some serak players in Holland, but they are pretty much off the radar......so I was curious as to when the serak guys from America will visit Holland :)I know that Dr. Andre and some of his seniors visited about 4 or 5 years ago. Around the same time I had the pleasure of interacting with a DeVries student who was over here for a visit. In the "small world" department, Guru Plinck was instructing while I was paired up with him. Interesting - as I recall - he had been with them for 2 years and had not yet been shown a djuru. For him it had been 2 years of pukulan, pukulan, pukulan. Rock-n-roll!

Steve Perry

05-Dec-2006, 05:51 PM

the term base,angle ,lever ,did not come from bapak sera--but from the very knowedgleble stevan plink....

that is quite possibly the stupidest comment i have ever heard. however the following about victor is true but i cant believe that you would type something so stupid.

Ah, not as stupid as making unfounded comments, Grasshopper. Can you find anywhere that anybody used the terms "base, angle, and leverage" in the way that Guru Stevan Plinck means them before his Bukti video and the book Net Force came out?

Any time-stamped record at all?

You can't, because Guru Plinck came up with that terminlogy. He didn't invent the way it works, but he named it that, and unless you have some evidence to the contrary, your comment is, in a word, wrong.

Nobody was using that terminology that way in public before they heard Guru Plinck use it. If you believe so, show me.

Truth is, I've been in the art of Sera for a whle, have done a boatload of research, and I can't find enough evidence to demonstrate that Bapak Sera was a) a Badui and b) even existed -- though I believe he did exist.

Nobody can find any record of him using the terms "base, angle, and leverage." I bet you can't, either.

tellner

05-Dec-2006, 09:05 PM

The funny thing is that most of them use the terminology but get it wrong.

Silatyogi

05-Dec-2006, 11:55 PM

The funny thing is that most of them use the terminology but get it wrong.

amen Brother

Steve Perry

06-Dec-2006, 02:37 AM

Too bad we don't see too many Serak players from America in Holland. From what I understand there are plenty of seminars in other European countries but somehow Holland is not visited. In Holland there are a lot of silat styles and pukulan styles because of our long relationship with Indonesia. A visit of for instance Guru Plinck to Holland would be really nice! :)

If I'm not mistaken, Guru Plinck did pay a visit to Holland some years back. (He was actually born there.) He was teaching seminars in Sweden, I think, and went to visit some of the Sera people.

He has a couple of pukulan techniques he showed us that he said were from the Dutch guys.

Currently, he is in Sweden (or is it Finland?) working with the Plinck-Sera students for a couple weeks, but I don't think he has plans to make it to Holland this time.

Tuankaki

06-Dec-2006, 03:28 AM

Can you find anywhere that anybody used the terms "base, angle, and leverage" in the way that Guru Stevan Plinck means them before his Bukti video and the book Net Force came out?
Guru Bob Vanatta never heard Pendekar Paul use the term, and he and I first heard it on Guru Plinck's Bukti tape from 1997. I brought that tape with me and aired it with my teacher at the time (1997) in Colorado Springs, CO.

Silatyogi

06-Dec-2006, 04:16 AM

Guru Bob Vanatta never heard Pendekar Paul use the term, and he and I first heard it on Guru Plinck's Bukti tape from 1997. I brought that tape with me and aired it with my teacher at the time (1997) in Colorado Springs, CO.

Agreed...

Guru Cass Magda told me he came up with the title. Guru Plinck said it was himself that did it and Guru Cliff says also that it was Guru Stevan Cause Pendekar Paul never used a name for that concept. I believe it was Guru Plinck.

A smilar thing occured with Guru Cliff. Pendekar would always say "Soft Shoulder" Guru Cliff took it a step further and analyzed it to find the actual angle's used by the Pendekar to make things more effective and make things work 100% all the time with out guess work.

I have seen video of Pendekar teaching Bukti Classes & Serak classes in many instances there was no name for a lot of the stuff shown.

So It makes sense that the senior gurus would inturn anazlyze the concepts and techniques and then come up with a "Western" way of naming in order to understand it for themselves and be able to pass it on to their students. Also it helps the "westerner" get what is going on and how to effectively recreate what the Pendekar could do with much ease.

Silatyogi

06-Dec-2006, 06:12 PM

I watched again all my Bukti & Serak, and seminar videos yesterday and nowhere did I see or hear Pendekar say "Base Angle Leverage". He occasionally says you have to look at the angle. That is about.

Silat4life

07-Dec-2006, 03:05 AM

Silatyogi

07-Dec-2006, 08:54 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by PDTBuktiNegara
the term base,angle ,lever ,did not come from bapak sera--but from the very knowedgleble stevan plink....

that is quite possibly the stupidest comment i have ever heard. however the following about victor is true but i cant believe that you would type something so stupid. >>

I find it VERY hard to believe that this is the most stupidest comment you ever read, actually your comment is STUPID.

By the way where's your facts, please share.
I find it VERY hard to believe that this is the most stupidest comment you ever read, actually your comment is STUPID.

By the way where's your facts, please share.

"The most abundant element in the Universe is Stupidity" - Frank Zappa

BASE ANGLE LEVERAGE first came on to the scene with Guru Plinck's Bukti Video.

if you watch all the Bukti Negara PDT Sambut & Djuru Tapes never once are those titles or terms used.

Not to say Pendekar Paul doesn't understand the concept it is evident that he does and he is a true Bad ass and MASTER of the art and I am sure Mas Djut & Pak Serak, J Devries & Ventje also understood the concept or "principle" as well. But the Name BASE ANGLE LEVERAGE was given to the silat community by Guru Plinck.

On a side note Guru Cliff told me he saw a video of the dutch training that Pendekar brought back with Guru Danny Hubrechts from Holland and they emphasized more the usage of Tiga and Pukulan and they have a different way of even punching in their djurus and movement. It was not as refined as PDT's approach. But still effective none the less.

Maurice's & Rudy Tirlinden's movements remind me more of Kuntao .

peace

S

.

Sgt_Major

07-Dec-2006, 09:08 AM

A gentle reminder gentlemen, no need for the words you, stupid and are in the same sentence ...

Next time I see it I wont be so gentle!

taoizt

07-Dec-2006, 09:20 AM

"On a side note Guru Cliff told me he saw a video of the dutch training that Pendekar brought back with Guru Danny Hubrechts from Holland and they emphasized more the usage of Tiga and Pukulan and they have a different way of even punching in their djurus and movement. It was not as refined as PDT's approach. But still effective none the less.
.

Isn't it called PUKULAN Serak? So this should be the single most important part of your training, especially in the beginning phases. I dabble with some pukulan and all I hear is: 'Train your pukul, train your pukul!'. Pukulan is not just the addition of punching techniques in a silat style, but it's the 'art of punching' ;)

What do you mean with 'not as refined as PDT's approach'?

taoizt

07-Dec-2006, 11:57 AM

If I'm not mistaken, Guru Plinck did pay a visit to Holland some years back. (He was actually born there.) He was teaching seminars in Sweden, I think, and went to visit some of the Sera people.

He has a couple of pukulan techniques he showed us that he said were from the Dutch guys.

Currently, he is in Sweden (or is it Finland?) working with the Plinck-Sera students for a couple weeks, but I don't think he has plans to make it to Holland this time.

I was given this reply by a friend who is familiar with Serak in Holland:

For your information

Stevan Plinck came into contact with someone who trained under family de Vries
Two years ago..
The deal was made to visit us when he returned from Finland
Too bad we never heard from the man again....
Strange that he still received some techniques from the dutch serak-players....'

Silat4life

07-Dec-2006, 05:05 PM

A gentle reminder gentlemen, no need for the words you, stupid and are in the same sentence ...

Next time I see it I wont be so gentle!

My bad.

Silatyogi

07-Dec-2006, 06:51 PM

Isn't it called PUKULAN Serak? So this should be the single most important part of your training, especially in the beginning phases. I dabble with some pukulan and all I hear is: 'Train your pukul, train your pukul!'. Pukulan is not just the addition of punching techniques in a silat style, but it's the 'art of punching' ;)

What do you mean with 'not as refined as PDT's approach'?

The leveraging and the usage of angles and expoliting angles in all movements and attacks & Take downs dont seem to be as emphasized as it is with PDT and his methodology and those that trained under him.

Silatyogi

07-Dec-2006, 06:53 PM

Silatyogi

07-Dec-2006, 06:55 PM

A gentle reminder gentlemen, no need for the words you, stupid and are in the same sentence ...

Next time I see it I wont be so gentle!

"The most abundant element in the Universe is Stupidity" - Frank Zappa

was that not ok?

I was just adding alittle from one of the greatest musicians ever.

Sorry if it offended you.

Sgt_Major

07-Dec-2006, 07:00 PM

Thats fine yogi, as I said it was just a reminder for people to be nice ...

No offense was taken by me.

Steve Perry

07-Dec-2006, 07:02 PM

I was given this reply by a friend who is familiar with Serak in Holland:

For your information

Stevan Plinck came into contact with someone who trained under family de Vries
Two years ago..
The deal was made to visit us when he returned from Finland
Too bad we never heard from the man again....
Strange that he still received some techniques from the dutch serak-players....'

Thanks for the clarification. I can't claim to keep track of all Guru Plinck's travels, only that he did show us some of the pukulan techniques that he indicated were from the Holland branch. He allows as how they are good fighters and that he respects what they do, never said anything different in my hearing.

As I recall, the techniques he showed us go back several years -- certainly more than two.

Guru Plinck doesn't make a living as a silat teacher, isn't wealthy, so travel is usually paid for by his seminar students. Dropping by a different country on one's way home isn't always possible, time- or finance-wise.

The pukulan aspects are certainly important. One of the things we hear often in class is, "When in doubt, hit."

I expect that the comment about Paul de Thouars's refinement has to do with him being able to close the gap and do the finishing throws with some skill, and that his focus is less on the hitting aspects and more on that area.
Doesn't mean it is necessarily better, just a different way of approaching things.

The older you get, the more important it is to learn how to fight smarter, not harder, least that's how I see it.

Silatyogi

08-Dec-2006, 12:43 AM

yes i didnt mean it was "better" than the dutch way I mean it was more detailed in the take downs and the use of leverage and angles. Cause its true as you get older you have to fight smarter and more resourcefully.

taoizt

08-Dec-2006, 08:52 AM

Silatyogi

08-Dec-2006, 09:32 AM

Silatyogi, how can you make such assumptions based on the stories of a third person or on videos, which obviously will NEVER show you the level of detail that a person to person instruction will give you? In my opinion you have to feel the pain to know if punch A is the same as punch B or C. On movie they look exactly alike but that doesn't say a thing! In punching I believe (but I'm only a beginner) there is as much refinement, angles or even leverage as in throws!

Someone (wasn't it Bruce Lee?) said: In the beginning a punch is just a punch but when you get further you will notice that a punch is not just a punch and in the end you will realise that a punch is just a punch :) I think most people will get to the first two phases :)

I agree with Steve Perry that it's a different way of approaching things...Pukulan or Pentjak Silat.

Well did I say the Dutch way Sucked..no its different way. From what I have seen its still effective I just prefer what I have seen.

Yes you are right punches do require refinement...Maybe the videos I saw didn't show all the bag of chips in the pantry.

Infact I wish I could see it for my ownself in person one day....And feel what you are taking about All I know is what I have experienced and watched on video (which when you know "how to " see you get a lot from video)....as for getting stuff 3rd person....we are not taking about getting the info from folks that don't know squat about silat we are taking about folks who have seen it felt and trained it at one point. Its not like my teachers never trained Dutch Silat.

I remember when I trained with Guru Cass Magda who did in fact study in Holland and I took many many falls from him, and felt his Pukulan. And he would show me a PDT way & what he learned in Holland. It was in fact very good to say the least but I didn't feel like it was going to break my neck or dislocate my spine like when i took falls for Guru Cliff who spent 19 years with PDT & and some good time with Guru Plinck aswell. Cass was doing a lot of hitting off of tiga to a sapu...and doing drills of this over an over again. Which he said was Dutch way........I don't live in holland you do so maybe you might have a better "eye" and picture of Serak than we over here do.

Cass even told me well see PDT doesn't emphasis Pukulan like THe dutch do..Yet you go see my teacher Guru Cliff and he will tell you Pendekar Paul always emphasized Pukulan.

When I Trained with PaK harold Koning who also is DUTCH and he also does Dutch Silat althoug its not Serak it is still pukulan style and his emphasis is heavy Pukulan I have felt his hits aswell very effective yet again his Take downs had although effective didn't have the refinement I found from PDt's approach.

Yes hitting require refinement and Pukulan IS important but if you can use less to do more than more power to you. If you are just hitting with out knowledge of where to hit you will be working harder to get the job done.
If you are hitting with out awarenes of shoulderpositioning you are also over working. If you are hitting with out awareness of body alignment to maximize power you are also doing more work than you have to.

I would like to see more of the Dutch Pukulan Serak so I can make a better assessment for myself how they operate. but so far from what I have seen its good and effective but not the whole piece of the pie. If you can enlighten me please do so. I honestly do want to learn more and see what is out there when it comes to Serak.

If i can knock a guy out and completely disable him from hurting me and still survive then things are moving in the right direction. If i am only exchanging punches with someone I am not doing what I need to to survive a confrontation and dont have the refinement to take him down fast or incapacitate him and get rid of the problem and have to rely on only hitting I might find that I have a problem especially when you are dealing with more than one person.

taoizt

09-Dec-2006, 11:19 AM

Silk Road

09-Dec-2006, 06:47 PM

Salaam Hormat,

I don't know nuthin' about any Serak. But what I like about this thread now is that you guys are talking about differences and interpretations instead of pissing about who does the REAL or ONLY Serak.

Please keep it up!

Silatyogi

09-Dec-2006, 09:21 PM

No...Cass Magdas pukulan is definately not the same as the dutch flavor. And for having trained/studied in Holland....to quote a dutch Serak student: 'having trained is something else than dropping by 2 times'...

Could you be more specific about this response? Who did Cass study with in Holland and was only 2 times that he dropped by? His pukulan looks like Guru Maurice's in fact his bukajaln djurus look a lot like Guru Maurice's Djurus.

Are you studying under Maurice's Line? Or Ventje & Dolf?
Could you give some specifics???

taoizt

13-Dec-2006, 12:08 PM

Wali

13-Dec-2006, 12:40 PM

I know enough that pukulan and 'pentjak silat' are different sides of a coin where the one is not necessarily more refined than the other. From what I know in the past there was not a seperation between the two...there was just 'spel' (which translates into 'play') and 'spelers' (players).

Pukulan is the striking aspect of Silat. It derives from the word 'Pukul' which roughly means 'to strike'. What do you mean when you say "one is not necessarily more refined than the other"? This makes it sound like they are seen as two independant entities which aren't entwined.

Have I missed something? :confused:

taoizt

13-Dec-2006, 01:12 PM

Yeah sorry if I find it a bit hard to explain. In my view...pukulan is a seperate style and not just 'the striking aspect of Silat'. This would mean that if you practice your punches you would practice pukulan...no you practice pukuls. Pukulan is more like 'the art of punching' in my view. Pukulan has pukuls, as well as grabs, twists, kicks etc. Here pukulan means more of a different mindset. While in the regular pentjak silat styles the opponent recieves several chances...in pukulan the opponent has to be destroyed once they engage a fight.

I must admit they are somewhat entwined, but it's too easy to say that pukulan is just 'the striking aspect'. Mentality is different...for instance in pukulan you almost never take a step back, you take a step forward (contrary to for instance Cimande)

Pukulan is silat without the cultural background...no nonsense, designed for fighting.

Steve Perry

13-Dec-2006, 04:27 PM

I must admit they are somewhat entwined, but it's too easy to say that pukulan is just 'the striking aspect'. Mentality is different...for instance in pukulan you almost never take a step back, you take a step forward (contrary to for instance Cimande)

Pukulan is silat without the cultural background...no nonsense, designed for fighting.

What we do in the Pacific Northwest we call Pukulan Pentjak Silat Sera Plinck, and for us, the pukulan is the striking aspect. Given how it is blended, it's hard to say what came from where, though we certainly consider that we have Tjimande roots down deep, we don't do a lot of backing up, either, so maybe that's where that came from.

As I understand it, pukulan was primarily a striking art, and its origins, like many arts, somewhat hazy and hard to pin down exactly. We've been told by people that what we do have definite elements of pukulan in it, and it seems the Dutch players rely more on that that we do. And like a lot of arts, the possibility of evolution certainly exists.

I think the finesses aspect comes from having more choice of weapons. When the only tool you have is a hammer -- a pukul -- then every problem becomes a nail. Boxing is very developed in punching, but that's what boxers do, they hit, they don't kick or grapple, they don't sweep or throw.

An art that can do five things might not be more effective than one that can do one, but that's where the idea of this discussion arose, I think. As you say, pukulan has the cultural aspects stripped out, and by its nature, seems more direct and less complex. Good or bad, that makes it different from some other arts.

For us, having a gun and a knife is better than just having a gun. And, of course, we don't consider this to be nonsense ...

Gajah Silat

13-Dec-2006, 04:41 PM

Hi Taoizt,

I was confused by the use of the word 'pukulan' to denote a separate style. Wali is certainly right, in Indonesian it merely means 'to strike'.

However, I think the word was used (mis-used?) by the Dutch Indos and hence in Holland and the US it is sometimes used as a term in itself!

The main emphasis in the style I study is pukulan(hitting) and kuncian(locking). Great for going 'straight at 'em', but that is only one aspect. We also employ legwork to great effect in combination with pukulan tactics. Evasion, offbalancing etc.

Of course the combination of upper & lower body movement greatly increase effectiveness. Combine this with attacks at different levels and you've got a whole lot of pecahan to play with :)

Silatyogi

14-Dec-2006, 08:45 AM

Silatyogi

14-Dec-2006, 08:45 AM

As to Cass Magda's style looking like the stuff of Maurice de Thouars, quite possibly true...but I'm not to sure that the videos of M de Thouars are good enough reference-material. The deeper insights are mostly never shown/explained on video and even the visits of your seniors to Holland do not automatically give them total insight in a system (i'm not saying that they don't have the insight, but it is not automatically a fact). Some of the stuff is so subtle that only feeling them gives you an idea what it is and I believe there is no replacement for feeling it!

I myself don't study the Serak style of Dolf de Vries or Maurice de Thouars. I just study some pukulan and therefore know a little bit of what pukulan looks like and feels like. I'm not a senior student or something like that, not at all!. But...I know enough that pukulan and 'pentjak silat' are different sides of a coin where the one is not necessarily more refined than the other. From what I know in the past there was not a seperation between the two...there was just 'spel' (which translates into 'play') and 'spelers' (players).

Spoke to Guru Cliff today he says, Guru Plinck went to Holland with Pendekar Paul 2 times on both trips the met with other Serak players of the "ventje" line and also Pendekar paul went with Danny Huybrechts to holland aswell and also shared and spent time with other players.

Now this is what my teacher gathered from his teachers trips and video....The

"Dutch" use more or emphasize more of the Tiga than the other Langkahs in Serak & they use the Pukulan heavily aswell as the hand motion known as the "potong". Apperantly the djurus are not as emphasized. The potong used is the same motion found heavily in djurus 14 & 15 of Serak.

He said also from what he saw and was shown it is very effective. Just a different flavor to what PDT taught. Although PDT also emphasized the Pukulan and the usage of the Potong in the djurus and in Application.
Peace

Santiago

taoizt

14-Dec-2006, 09:10 AM

Good responses guys. It shows that terms can get a different meaning in different countries or even regions. For me Pukulan is the complete package :), but again, what is complete? Offcourse we don't just use the fist as a weapon, open hands, sikuts and pecuts are as important as well, as are footwork and kicks. So the pukulan that is practiced in Holland is usually an entire style. If you have to make a comparison, perhaps it's easier to compare it with Wing Chun versus another Kungfu style. Ving Tsun's main weapon is the fist, but..they DO have kicks and footwork. They don't choose to lock because a lock takes time and in that precious time (even if its 1 second) another opponent can come up from behind. You have to take him out, and, preferably on the spot. The completeness of Ving Tsun is often debated because there is virtually no groundgame, but in the end...an exponent of it can make it work standing up or on the ground.

A lot of people think that pukulan uses different (more limited?) techniques to take someone down...perhaps that's true, but in the end it's the mentality that really makes the difference...you should only need 1,2 or 3 techniques on the street.

Gajah Silat

14-Dec-2006, 10:04 AM

Interesting stuff :)

So, in the past some Dutch collonial has asked 'what's that?' after observing some Silat & got the answer 'pukulan', which of course would be technically correct if striking was involved. ;) Reminds me of the old 'kangaroo' story :confused:

No wonder there is so much conflict if we're all using the same terms to describe different things :Angel:

So, is Dutch 'Pukulan' just a version of silat that concerntrates on striking with predominantly langkah tiga? The core of our system is pretty much the same.

Of course a limited number of movements doesn't have to detract from the effectiveness, because they can all fit together and flow from one another in an unlimited number of ways.

Steve Perry

14-Dec-2006, 05:01 PM

A lot of people think that pukulan uses different (more limited?) techniques to take someone down...perhaps that's true, but in the end it's the mentality that really makes the difference...you should only need 1,2 or 3 techniques on the street.

I don't think anybody was saying pukulan techniques didn't work, but that the PDT version of silat was, indeed, more complex than what we think of as "pukulan."

While it is true, that in a streetfight, it might take three seconds and only a couple of basic techniques to do the job, the question is, which technique will it require? What options will you have? I'd liken this to playing pocket billiards -- you need to be thinking not only about the ball you are about to sink, but what shot you will have after that ball goes in. Or, if you miss, what shot that will leave your opponent.

Duking it out with one guy is different than taking on three or four. The ability to put somebody onto the ground as a roadblock comes into play with multiple attackers. Precision could be more useful there.

If your opponent somehow blocks the punch you planned to deck him with, what is your backup? The reason there are sweeps and takedowns is that they are useful, depending on the circumstances. We aren't big on reaching for locks, because we consider them low-priority moves, but if one presents itself, we'll take it. We have kicks, but we tend to use them on targets of opportunity, that is, we don't spend a lot of time setting up somebody for a kick. We aren't doing taekwondo. If it's there, yep, go for it, but we generally prefer to keep both feet on the ground when upright, (though there is a fair amount of groundwork, too.)

We don't believe you need every tool Sears ever made in your toolbox, but we like the idea of having some that work at all four (and sometimes five) ranges. I think part of the finesse aspect is knowing what the ranges are, and which tool to use, and when.

Tuankaki

14-Dec-2006, 07:25 PM

Now this is what my teacher gathered from his teachers trips and video....The

"Dutch" use more or emphasize more of the Tiga than the other Langkahs in Serak & they use the Pukulan heavily aswell as the hand motion known as the "potong". Apperantly the djurus are not as emphasized. The potong used is the same motion found heavily in djurus 14 & 15 of Serak.

Santiago
That's what I said back on my Dec. 5th post, from my personal experience. (By the way Steve, if Serg is still around, he can verify this as he was there - he was my student at the time). Unfortunately I don't have any videos. The "potong" as such, can also be expressed as from Cimande dasaran (djuru-djuru?) 1 and 2, which is far more likely the source for that movement, if you've ever actually seen it - although the badan attributes are very different. From the Sera videos I've watched, most of the pukuls can be well derived from Sera djuru-djuru 1-7. The "potong" from djuru 5. At least that's what I gather from the videos. I like that one of the definitions of "potong" is to "slaughter, or amputate". Sounds about right to me.

Silatyogi

14-Dec-2006, 07:29 PM

So what Langkahs are actually practiced in Serak in Holland or in Pukulan ?

Which ones are emphasized?

Tuankaki

14-Dec-2006, 07:54 PM

So what Langkahs are actually practiced in Serak in Holland or in Pukulan ?

Which ones are emphasized?Never been to Holland, and don't have any videos. It seems they don't travel to the U.S. much either. The guy I worked with had zero footwork to show for his 2 years of training.

Actually to be fair, Guru Terlinden's art had ""Sera" djurus big time, and his Pukulan (from his videos) made extensive use of the tiga. Dr. Andre who comes from the Terlinden/Maurice line (although he resides near me, not in Holland), makes usage of all the platforms most Serakies would be familiar with, not just the tiga.

Perhaps lumping all of Holland's Sera together doesn't serve to accurately examine the differentiating nuances from the deVries, deThouars, and Terlinden lines. It would be very helpful for folks from those lines to pitch in here, as it's really pretty much speculation from afar where it currently stands.

Tuankaki

08-Feb-2007, 06:50 PM

We just had Guru Paul Silva (Dr. Andre's "Master at Arms" for several years) here this past weekend, and we have Guru Plinck coming next weekend for a public workshop on the 17th. It's great fun to break out those videos periodically.

Plus we'll have Gurus Bob Vanatta, Chris Geilen, Mike Choate, and Ron Miller here to review some of the Aikido Silat we all learned. Well, maybe not. We'll probably just concentrate on what Guru Plinck has to teach. Should be a hoot.

taoizt

09-Feb-2007, 09:59 AM

Regarding langkas: Usually we practice the tiga footwork at pukulan. But as time and experience progresses there are some alternative, more forward stances.

Regarding refinement: Somehow the idea is that practicing mainly pukuls (and their supporting footwork) is less refined than practicing the whole package. Sure there's more than punching..but Pukuls can be incredibly refined, in a way I previously never seen before, except perhaps from some esoteric kungfu movie :). Is the punch actually a push, or the push a punch?. Do you punch and keep your adversary close or do you punch in a way that you have to follow after your opponents retreat? Is the punch blocked, sure the 'brother' of the attacking hand is there to back up with another pukul. Is your whole intent transferrred into the punch (and I don't just mean body mass). etc. etc.

About the dutch Serak lineages, I cannot write about it since I don't practice Serak. Here in Holland a lot of old-style pentjak and pukulan is still only practiced in the privacy of a living room or on a small attic. Old style pentjak was not ment to go public and commercial or even to be discussed on a public forum. Why would they give away their tricks? What is there to win?

Greets,
Taoizt

Wali

09-Feb-2007, 11:42 AM

Old style pentjak was not ment to go public and commercial or even to be discussed on a public forum. Why would they give away their tricks? What is there to win?

Greets,
Taoizt
The survival of the system. Many systems die out for this very reason. They become SO secretive that nobody learns them and they dissapear.

taoizt

09-Feb-2007, 12:19 PM

Sure that could be a reason. But even if you go public it remains to be seen if enough deep knowledge can be transferred. Only one or two will be able to pick up all or most of the knowledge if you're lucky. And if that person trains a new group himself, the same problem arises. If you train in a small group without going public it's the same case. Only advantage with attic or backyard-training in my opinion is that money never has to come into play. With money people expect something in return, even if they are only there for the sports. Rent has to be paid so a minimum number of trainees have to come to compensate for the costs, let alone make a profit of it.

A lot of people say they really want to train, but if that means bruises, frustration and pain every day, how many people will sacrifice all of that for limited respect in a small community? A lot of people will bail out and take the shortcut of becoming a western 'pendekar' and make lots of money.

I guess most of the older and deeper knowledge will remain hidden or will disappear whilst society marches on. Kungfu, Silat or Karate are no different in that. Or maybe I'm being just too cynical :)

Pekir

12-Feb-2007, 07:04 PM

Salam Hormat everyone!
My Uncle said: the low kuda-kuda is a must for practiced. The purpose is to build a strenght in the lower body. the lower the better. However, for pratical purpose, is not necessary. Meaning a situation will dictate how you will react and apply your techniques.
Tristan

I have to agree with Tristan on this. The lower stances are to train your legs and yes in our modest opinion one should be able to perform the techniques that way. To prepare our new students we have set up a basic training that helps our students to 'prepare' their leg strengh. The application though allways on the situation. I remember one karateka once stating that those low stances were not really practical in real fights. I quess he only watched the training sessions and did not fully grasp the application.

Pekir

Narrue

12-Feb-2007, 08:44 PM

I believe that secrecy to the point of stupidity will be the downfall of any art. There are martial arts that have died because of this. People have to move with the times and understand that the world moves and so too should those that live on it.

The second problem can be illustrated with a game of Chinese whispers, you whisper something into one persons ear and they to the next, several persons along and the original message has become distorted and not the original teaching.

taoizt

13-Feb-2007, 09:46 AM

I think there are plenty of styles that have died out and who will die out. And if the style survives, there is a very real chance of knowledge dying out on a specific style.

Same with the low kuda-kuda. If you have not learnt what the application of that stance is, you might get the wrong idea that these stances are combat stances which you use as your original pasang before a fight. If noone corrects you on that you might even think that a stance like that might lure your opponent into attacking you, well....for sure that will happen, although I'm not too sure about the outcome :)

Secrecy is a very dangerous thing because it is also something people can hide behind. They make the student believe that they will recieve some secret techniques when they study long enough and in the end, you will see there is no secret and you are tricked.
I do think there is a difference between secrecy and not going public. That's about choosing a small group of people to train with and devote your time to, as opposed to creating large classes and from that larger class filter out some disciples.

Greetings,
Taoizt

Pekir

13-Feb-2007, 06:15 PM

Secrecy is a very dangerous thing because it is also something people can hide behind. They make the student believe that they will recieve some secret techniques when they study long enough and in the end, you will see there is no secret and you are tricked.
I do think there is a difference between secrecy and not going public. That's about choosing a small group of people to train with and devote your time to, as opposed to creating large classes and from that larger class filter out some disciples.

Taoizt,

I think secrecy is also often mistaken for "you'll learn certain things when the time is right". In my modest opinion it is not wise to teach nor explain students techniques when they have not progressed to that certain level. Has not much to do with secrecy I quess. I do agree that the word secret is sometimes mis-used by 'outsiders' who want acces to curriculums but can't because the school isn't public (we have never refused someone who seriously wanted to train at our school though!) On the other hand if someone is sincere about safeguarding their mort important techniques for a select group of students, why not? Should one be blamed for the misuse by others with whom one has no relation. I understand that some teachers have 'tricked' their students with their secret approach but there are people who have generalized the 'cheap trick' phenomena towards everyone who chooses to be selective.

I don't fully agree with people who say a style or school might cease to exist over time when they are not open to the public or other schools. You might also ask yourself what stays 'alive' of a MA when it is under constant influence of other MA's? Is a new art created or should you designate such an art as an off shoot of an older? Who decides what is complentary or excess luggage? Is one of my students (or even myself for that matter) after let's say 4 years of training in the position to judge the completness of the full curriculum of the art? Isn't it maybe so that if a student heavily doubts the completness of an art that he should progress to another MA (system)? Nothing wrong with that.

Maybe the question one should ask the doubtful student is: what is your goal with your martial art training? Is it pilling up techniques and fragments of systems without wondering if there still is a solid fundament to support it? Or train for the 'best' fundament first and then study other martial arts? It's not everyones goal to compete in UFC e.g. or to be the ultimate streetfighter.

I love to see techniques/jurus of other styles but, although I can appreciate them, many of them would not really fit for example our foundation of movement. As you know I stopped training two completely different styles because the difference in movement and defensive/offensive approach interferred with my instinctive reflexes (along with some other stuff)

Getting a bigger picture (literaly) of the fundamentals of other arts is a completely different thing and can be extremely functional in grasping the different offensive and defensive options. I doubt if there is an absolute need to include all the options (in the world) in your own curriculum. Would sound like a mission impossible....

Pekir