If you ran the WKSA would you change anything?

[Unknown Entity]

How would you run the organisation and what changes would you make and why would you make them?

[Choiyoungwoo]

oh my god this will be a huge thread

[Unknown Entity]

Fire away Choi....lets get the ball rolling.

[Gi Ma Ja Se]

lol this is more of a fashion change ha ha ha, id make it so that the 4th dahn generals was for 3rd and 4th dahns, this would seem more logical as you would keep the silver generals for 1st, 2nd dahn, then at 3rd,4th you get the red silver one, and at 5th you get the red one!!

just a thought?? makes sence but choi if there is a reson why 1st,2nd, 3rd all have silver generals please enlighten me... :D

[Choiyoungwoo]

lol this is more of a fashion change ha ha ha, id make it so that the 4th dahn generals was for 3rd and 4th dahns, this would seem more logical as you would keep the silver generals for 1st, 2nd dahn, then at 3rd,4th you get the red silver one, and at 5th you get the red one!!

just a thought?? makes sence but choi if there is a reson why 1st,2nd, 3rd all have silver generals please enlighten me... :D

All 3rd degrees say that.... I did.....although it does follow the pattern ...yeah sure why not?? I dont care who get the prettiest band uniform.

[Choiyoungwoo]

Change the name ........WSKA is often interpreted as "We Kiss Suhs a$$"
Get rid of the lampshades......put policies in place that encourage school ownership worldwide so people can teach ksw as a legitimate career instead of a hobby part time. ......require owners to attend at least one ma business seminar each year teaching best practices and principlies in the industry,,,,,,,All masters must own and operate at least their own part time or full time school NO EXCEPTIONS. .......raise the standards of rank to require referee cert for tourneys at the 2nd dan level........schoolowners must be at least 2nd degree or higher and have at least 2 letters of recommendation from masters vouching for them.as well as a fully executed business plan that describes how they will succeed for at least the first five years. ....so they don't flop, close and make ksw look unprofessional or just open to get 5th dan .....offer large group health ins and liability ins for all owners and thier employees.........all school owners are REQUIRED to test their own black belts to 1st dan,but may not test anyone up to their own level,............committees will exsist for all functions of KS, such as risk management, curriculum/syllabus evolution, Masters review board, to review 5 th dan applicants, Tournament committee, to oversee and manage the process of hosting tourneys, etc etc etc all of this would free KSN of many burdens and allow him to enjoy his position even more. I don't know .....i really haven't thought about it much.................... :Angel:

[psbn matt]

raise the standards of rank to require referee cert for tourneys
schoolowners must be at least 2nd degree (1st dan here) or higher and have at least 2 letters of recommendation from masters vouching for them.
offer large group liability ins for all owners and thier employees.........all school owners are REQUIRED to test their own black belts to 1st dan,but may not test anyone up to their own level,
committees will exsist for all functions of KS, such as risk management, Tournament committee, to oversee and manage the process of hosting tourneys, :

all of the above is allready done in the uk.
maybe you should move over here? :D

[Grippereeno]

Id fail more people in tests especially at first degree and above..

[Choiyoungwoo]

Id fail more people in tests especially at first degree and above..
I wouldn't let them test to begin with.

[Silentmonk]

I wouldn't let them test to begin with.

What no one lol Sometimes to fail is to actually realise what it is to pass. Some people would learn more from failing a test than by not being able to take it. But i really do like your method for the running of wksa. Choi for president :D

[Choiyoungwoo]

What no one lol Sometimes to fail is to actually realise what it is to pass. Some people would learn more from failing a test than by not being able to take it. But i really do like your method for the running of wksa. Choi for president :D
I wouldn't let them test to begin with if I think they are going to fail because then there is no money involved. If you let them test anyway andthen fail they would have already paid for the test, failed, and would bitch and moan that it was all about the money. In my opinion the test req's ould be well known ( with a few surprises) if one CHOOSES to test after they have recieved approval to do so ,,,then fails they would need to retest which means paying the test fee again. Now lets see who is really rank hungry..

[Unknown Entity]

Without failure we cannot truly appreciate the value of victory (or passing)!!!

[Silentmonk]

I wouldn't let them test to begin with if I think they are going to fail because then there is no money involved. If you let them test anyway andthen fail they would have already paid for the test, failed, and would bitch and moan that it was all about the money. In my opinion the test req's ould be well known ( with a few surprises) if one CHOOSES to test after they have recieved approval to do so ,,,then fails they would need to retest which means paying the test fee again. Now lets see who is really rank hungry..

Yeah i understand that although the point i was trying to make is that sometimes people have all the ability and skills to pass but their attitudes suck. Failing a test that they know they are technically good enough to pass can be a heads up to their attitude proving that the art is more than being profficient at the techniques. Although i think that you would probably have weened thesed people out already.
:)

[Choiyoungwoo]

Without failure we cannot truly appreciate the value of victory (or passing)!!!
I think that idea is true in competition or in the marketplace, but I don't know if it works in the exam process. I would hate to have to fail at Oxford in order to appreciate passing...I would appreciate passing by virtue of all the work required to do so.

[coc716]

What no one lol Sometimes to fail is to actually realise what it is to pass. Some people would learn more from failing a test than by not being able to take it. I wouldn't let them test to begin with if I think they are going to fail because then there is no money involved. If you let them test anyway andthen fail they would have already paid for the test, failed, and would bitch and moan that it was all about the money. In my opinion the test req's ould be well known ( with a few surprises) if one CHOOSES to test after they have recieved approval to do so ,,,then fails they would need to retest which means paying the test fee again. Now lets see who is really rank hungry..

Both of you raise valid points. So, perhaps another way to look at it is that you don't pay per test but you pay per "advancement" (for lack of a better term). So you pay your fee, take the test. If you pass, great... move along. If you fail, you can retest but there's no fee for it. It allows people to learn from failure yet it's not about the money to pay again. If they fail the retest, before money becomes an issue I think there may be greater issues to resolve because failing twice might be indicator there's a larger problem that needs addressing.

[davefly76]

So you pay your fee, take the test. If you pass, great... move along. If you fail, you can retest but there's no fee for it.

i thought that was the case anyway?

[Mung Kee]

yeah it's a one time fee but I think what some people are getting at is that people who test never fail. Not necessarily a bad thing as long as the instructor does not allow a student to test when they don't deserve it.

[Choiyoungwoo]

i thought that was the case anyway?
thats the problem....eventually you will pass with what amount to a sympathy promotion, that is loosely justified with a subjective standard. which is fine, i guess. I don't fully agree but what do i know? First of all it's not really a test fee, it's a certification fee. If it were a test fee then you would pay it each time you tested, which I think is a good idea as it rewards those who are competent since they need fewer tests and it encourages every on else to be ready or don't test at all. Preformance based , with a pocket book incentive.?????

[KSW_123]

......require owners to attend at least one ma business seminar each year teaching best practices and principlies in the industry,:
Good idea.


,,,,,,All masters must own and operate at least their own part time or full time school NO EXCEPTIONS.
Why?


raise the standards of rank to require referee cert for tourneys at the 2nd dan level

Will we have enough judges? Would the tourneys take longer because of lack of judges?


........schoolowners must be at least 2nd degree or higher and have at least 2 letters of recommendation from masters vouching for them.

Good idea.



as well as a fully executed business plan that describes how they will succeed for at least the first five years. ....so they don't flop, close and make ksw look unprofessional

If someone starts a business without a business plan, they are nuts.


or just open to get 5th dan .....

bitter?



offer large group health ins and liability ins for all owners and thier employees

Sounds good, but how would it be possible without putting the association and its members at risk. If the schools are independent and an accident occurs at one school it is that schools problem. If all schools are legally tied together then how would that affect other school or the association in case of a lawsuit?


committees will exsist for all functions of KS, such as risk management, curriculum/syllabus evolution, Masters review board, to review 5 th dan applicants, Tournament committee, to oversee and manage the process of hosting tourneys, etc etc etc all of this would free KSN of many burdens and allow him to enjoy his position even more.:
Or create even more politics. Have you ever worked in management for a big company? The politics (at least in the companies I have worked for) make KS politics look tame by comparison.

[psbn matt]

when i fail one of my students, (which i haven't done yet, but would do if they wern't up to standard) i don't charge for a retest. i think it is important for testing students to know that they have to work for there next belt, and that there is no guaranted passes. just like every other test you might take in life, work hard = pass slack off = fail on guarantees.

[davefly76]

when i fail one of my students, (which i haven't done yet, but would do if they wern't up to standard) i don't charge for a retest.

i would imagine the main reason you have never failed a student is because you don't put them forward for a grading unless you are sure that they are good enough to pass. what would be the point otherwise?

i try and get my students (particularly juniors) to realise that every lesson is part of their grading and that the actual test is, in part, a demonstration of their skills and what they have learnt since the last grading. and if they put in all their effort and comitment and show the correct amount of etiquete then they can't fail.

:)

[Choiyoungwoo]

i would imagine the main reason you have never failed a student is because you don't put them forward for a grading unless you are sure that they are good enough to pass. what would be the point otherwise?

i try and get my students (particularly juniors) to realise that every lesson is part of their grading and that the actual test is, in part, a demonstration of their skills and what they have learnt since the last grading. and if they put in all their effort and comitment and show the correct amount of etiquete then they can't fail.

:)

I agree with you but it begs the question "if it's not a test then why not call it what it is .......a graduation ???

[davefly76]

I agree with you but it begs the question "if it's not a test then why not call it what it is .......a graduation ???

i suppose you could call it a test of mental strength, attitude, ettiquete, character. the willingness to carry on when your brain and your body says "i've had enough"

[JSun]

...perhaps another way to look at it is that you don't pay per test but you pay per "advancement" (for lack of a better term). So you pay your fee, take the test. If you pass, great... move along. If you fail, you can retest but there's no fee for it. It allows people to learn from failure yet it's not about the money to pay again. If they fail the retest, before money becomes an issue I think there may be greater issues to resolve because failing twice might be indicator there's a larger problem that needs addressing.

That's how we handle testing at our dojang. What iritates me is the minimum 2 month requirement between testings. I feel like I should be able to learn at my own rate.

[JSun]

i suppose you could call it a test of mental strength, attitude, ettiquete, character. the willingness to carry on when your brain and your body says "i've had enough"

Once again...thats how we handle testing at our dojang :D

[coc716]

i suppose you could call it a test of mental strength, attitude, ettiquete, character. the willingness to carry on when your brain and your body says "i've had enough"

I've wondered about this too... how our testing tends to run vs. how other styles/schools run.

Some styles/schools have their test as an exam. After meeting whatever requirements are needed to qualify to take the test, you go in and take the test. If you make so many mistakes or fail at things, you fail the whole test.. that's that. It's one shot, make or break.

We seem to take a different path, where you're continually tested... test in the "trial" sort of meaning, not "exam" sort of meaning. Our testings seem more like trials to do, as davefly76 says, check your mental strength, attitude, ettiquete, character, fortitude, and so on. Sure it is still checking that you know your material, but it's more about "having what it takes".

I think there's merit to both approaches, but I like how we do it. I remember in school how I could cram for an exam, take the exam and get an 100% passing grade, then 5 minutes after the exam I've forgotten stuff. i.e. there are always ways to "beat the exam", get the grade but not really grow from it. I think the way we do things tends to foster not only the knowledge, but all those other measures that truly add up to being a martial artist. YMMV.

Anyway, the point is one of semantics, I think. "Test" as in "exam" or "test" as in "trial". I think we're more "trial" oriented.

[Choiyoungwoo]

That's how we handle testing at our dojang. What iritates me is the minimum 2 month requirement between testings. I feel like I should be able to learn at my own rate.

Skills need time to sink in ..... thats one answer.. consider also the fact that your training is probably modeled after education rather than athletics. Now I don't know if you attended REL or RSS,,,,Lee or San Jac. But I am sure at those institutions you were required to go at the teachers pace regardless of your aptitude..........I don't know any worthwhile instution of learning that lets the student dictate the pace of how they will learn.. That is the teachers choice, and responsibility.............. we go by # of classes attended AND time since last test , although it typcally turns out to be the same for most students (about 3 months)because we require consistent attendance on certain days and it works very well...But I would like to see it improved if we could.

[Gi Ma Ja Se]

That's how we handle testing at our dojang. What iritates me is the minimum 2 month requirement between testings. I feel like I should be able to learn at my own rate.

This reminds me of something, you often categorise students into two groups i refer to this process as "stamp collecting" for example you get some collectors that collect a new stamp and then move on to the next stamp right away. Then there is other stamp collector who gets a new stamp, learns the history of that stamp, where it came from, why it was created, etc etc... this applies to many MA students and collecting a new belt or new technique or form,

Being the first means a very quick prgoression however it will spell trouble for your future as one day you will hopefully get your blackbelt and maybe open a school. And yep you will be able to show your students all the techniques or forms for there new belt, but as most instructors know there will be that student who wants to know the ins and outs of everything you teach!!!

It took me 5 years to get my first dahn by the way, and many of my class mates are ahead of me!!! but i see it as belts are meaningless its the individual and the years of training that earns respect of a student or class mate!!

[JSun]

Skills need time to sink in ..... thats one answer.. consider also the fact that your training is probably modeled after education rather than athletics. Now I don't know if you attended REL or RSS,,,,Lee or San Jac. But I am sure at those institutions you were required to go at the teachers pace regardless of your aptitude..........I don't know any worthwhile instution of learning that lets the student dictate the pace of how they will learn.. That is the teachers choice, and responsibility.............. we go by # of classes attended AND time since last test , although it typcally turns out to be the same for most students (about 3 months)because we require consistent attendance on certain days and it works very well...But I would like to see it improved if we could.

I went to REL and San Jac, and, yes, I was required to go at the teachers pace, regardless of my aptitude. However, not floating my own boat, but I was a GATE and honors student, and that pace was rarely fast enough for me. I realize most MA are about muscle memorization, and that takes time and practice, regardless of mental aptitude. But, we all know KS is a martial art based on the principle of refining fundamental techniques as one progresses in rank. I'm working on my first three Kwan Juhl Kis. I can see how this set directly correlates with all the joint locks learned in KBS, SMS, EBS, ASMS and DEBS. I'm in no hurry to rank up and quit. My current set of techniques has definitely helped me better understand the finer elements of earlier sets. This epiphany just gets me that much more excited to learn more. I'm dying to start practicing Too Ki. I'm just an impatient person, I guess :o

but i see it as belts are meaningless its the individual and the years of training that earns respect of a student or class mate!!

I absolutely agree. I'd rather not even wear a belt, not to mention a dobak (although I realize why it's required in the art...try throwing someone by a T-shirt...RIP!!). From what I've read about you and your bro, you absolutely deserve respect for your skill, regardless of your rank.

Choi, you from the Bay? You obviously know the area...

[Choiyoungwoo]

I'm working on my first three Kwan Juhl Kis. I can see how this set directly correlates with all the joint locks learned in KBS, SMS, EBS, ASMS and DEBS. I'm in no hurry to rank up and quit. My current set of techniques has definitely helped me better understand the finer elements of earlier sets. This epiphany just gets me that much more excited to learn more. I'm dying to start practicing Too Ki. I'm just an impatient person, I guess :o



I absolutely agree. I'd rather not even wear a belt, not to mention a dobak (although I realize why it's required in the art...try throwing someone by a T-shirt...RIP!!). From what I've read about you and your bro, you absolutely deserve respect for your skill, regardless of your rank.

Choi, you from the Bay? You obviously know the area...

I asked Kuk Sa Nim over 10 years ago 'why don't we learn Kwan Jul Ki first, it sure does make ki bon soo more effective and it's a lot easier to learn" his reply was "ki bon soo dangerous making" implying that it makesKBS too dangerous. He's a smart Guy ,,,, the last thing we need is to give white belts stuff that is more dangerous...it's already dangerous enough..you sound like a pretty smart guy....my guess is that you will have many more epiphanies in time...

..

it's you attitude, not your aptitude, that determines your altitude!!!!

[ember]

I went to REL and San Jac, and, yes, I was required to go at the teachers pace, regardless of my aptitude. However, not floating my own boat, but I was a GATE and honors student, and that pace was rarely fast enough for me.

But with colleges you can pick your school and major, and those can both factor in to how easy or hard the classes are. With a martial art... the nearest comparison would be choosing the style and instructor. Given we're referring to Kuk Sool, in many places there's only one instructor available.

That's not as true around Houston, though, depending on how long / far he wants to drive.


I realize most MA are about muscle memorization, and that takes time and practice, regardless of mental aptitude.

It also likely depends on the student's mix of learning styles: visual, audio, or kinesthetic. You can get smart people in any combination. Combine a strong mental aptitude with a good kinesthetic learner, and some of the muscle movements will just click.


Choi, you from the Bay? You obviously know the area...

It has been *very interesting* to observe how conversations on this forum seem to interweave nicely with the material covered in a given week...

[Choiyoungwoo]

how would you change wksa?? based on this

[ember]

how would you change wksa?? based on this

How would I change WKSA based on the fact that different people have different mental aptitudes and different learning styles?

I'm not certain that I would.

I like being part of an association where my dear friend can eventually get a black belt, even though she has trouble remembering things. Usually, I challenge myself in my training to work on more precision, lower stances, better nak bub.

Usually, I see these differences working themselves out over the course of testing, that the person with more aptitude tests more regularly. That those who need more work take more time between tests. But not always.

There's different phases of training. Colored belt up to about brown stripe, I never had trouble knowing my techniques before testing. My aptitude was challenged with learning a bit more detail.

From Brown belt to black-brown, if I didn't get a new technique in a week, I'd have to remind myself to be patient. I was working on nak bub, I know that detail is important, precision is good, and there's a lot of other material. But that doesn't change the fact that if you don't know the next set of techniques, you don't test.

Then once I hit DBN, I didn't sweat where I was on techniques. It didn't matter if I went five weeks without learning a new technique, I knew I'd get them all eventually. Detail was good again, continuing to work on the nak bub was good. Black belt testing would take me up as far as I knew, but it wasn't as important to have full sets down.

And now... when I got DDMK #15, I called that dear friend and said "now the real training begins". Go back and refresh the older material, especially the middle levels that I'm *not* teaching every week, and haven't practiced in longer than I like. And train for tournament :)

I really don't know if WKSA does the right thing or not. I am trying to focus on my training, being positive, and not worrying about other people. I trust that KJN sees more clearly than either of us what we do well, and where we need improvement. I trust that with his years of experience, he'll know how to handle it, and that both of us will promote at the appropriate time.

As always, I need more practice.

[Choiyoungwoo]

I really don't know if WKSA does the right thing or not. I am trying to focus on my training, being positive, and not worrying about other people. I trust that KJN sees more clearly than either of us what we do well, and where we need improvement. I trust that with his years of experience, he'll know how to handle it, and that both of us will promote at the appropriate time.


Sounds like a good approach. I don't think the Assoc directly effects the individual student all that much. I do however, think that there are many indirect effects that make a significant difference, some of which the student, black belt, or even instructors never realize, Most school owners manage the interface between Assoc and student in ways that they feel are prudent. If I understand your posts then you attend KJN Harmons school and I can think of no one who can manage that connection better than they can. You are among the fortunate to have them as instructors. Consequently I consider your perspective on this issue is interesting and very relevant. Some of the biggest impacts that wksa probably has on you is the syllabus, bb test fee costs, bb testing circumstances, etc ....would you change any of these, or something else? if so which one, and why?

[ember]

Some of the biggest impacts that wksa probably has on you is the syllabus, bb test fee costs, bb testing circumstances, etc ....would you change any of these, or something else? if so which one, and why?

When it comes to fees, I look a little at what the market value is in the area and across martial arts. I know when I started that the regular class, the fees at my school were the same as for the TKD dojang down the street, and the Tai Chi / Kung Fu place nearby.

It's certainly cheaper than what I was paying for TKD, and with a lot more material. The testing fees also are cheaper than what I remember paying.

From what I have gathered, it sounds like the association test fee is likewise comparable with that charged by other arts.

I've found the circumstances of black belt testing to be quite fun, actually. It's not nearly as long a day, nor as exhausting, as I remember marching band Game Days being.

I'm a little worried about the requirement for black belts to have a General's uniform when competing in weapon divisions at tournament. But considering that the silver uniform will get so many years of use, it'll probably be worth the investment.

I like the fact that my school is now offering a "Master's Club" that teaches archery, knife throwing, sword cutting, and such. Unfortunately, it also costs extra, and the price seems a little steep. Especially for two... although it's not currently being offered at times that my husband could attend. But we're getting some other things straightened out, and will probably be able to go for that, too, in a month or two.

[Choiyoungwoo]

I've found the circumstances of black belt testing to be quite fun, actually. It's not nearly as long a day, nor as exhausting, as I remember marching band Game Days being.

emberKSW please forgive me, this is not directed at you in the least..
.
There have been many threads like"too easy to gain belts" "is ksw getting stronger/weaker" etc I think her comments speak volumes about BB testing in KSW@ HQ.

[TXKukSoolBB]

There have been many threads like"too easy to gain belts" "is ksw getting stronger/weaker" etc I think her comments speak volumes about BB testing in KSW@ HQ.

All I can do is speak for is myself, and I remember them (Houston) being quite challenging. Challenging in the sense that I gave effort until I had nothing left to give and I would be sore for days. Were some more challenging than others...yes. However I did all of my color belt testing under Cheifmaster Suh and there were never any "easy tests." What I can say (having been a proctor at Houston testing) is I see people getting away with less that maximal effort (IMO).**disclaimer...I have not seen a testing in about a year** You are testing in front of instructors you don't know and who don't know you. This affords you an opportunity to dramatize your efforts more than they actually are. Another thing to consider is you may have 100 or more adults testing from the ages of 17 to 65. There will different levels of conditioning. I just feel that if you go to Houston (or anywhere) to test and don't give 100% it is a reflection of your home school and own personal work ethic. Maybe your point Choi is that Houston should not let you get by with less than 100% effort. I can understand that. I'm not sure how to fix that...but I feel it would be a great topic to discuss. Maybe a thread on "evaluating maximal effort in students." I could learn from that!

[davefly76]

Maybe a thread on "evaluating maximal effort in students." I could learn from that!

why not start one then? ;) :p

personally if find it quite hard to identify if anyone is really giving 100%.

obviously it's easy to spot someone who's not trying or putting any effort into their stances, kicking or forms but how do we really know if they are all working hard.

what i mean is, it's quite easy to stand at the front barking out instructions to people but i never know if what i'm asking them to do is really enough. maybe it comes with more experience :confused: either that or i'm just too nice :Angel:

:D

[PopeCoyote]

emberKSW please forgive me, this is not directed at you in the least..
.
There have been many threads like"too easy to gain belts" "is ksw getting stronger/weaker" etc I think her comments speak volumes about BB testing in KSW@ HQ.

I'll have to agree with my wife- Black Belt testing is FUN! Of course, you have to consider that for the both of us, the challenge is part of the fun. By having to work to overcome a challenge, you appreciate it more.

One example... At the Feb. testing, when our group lined of for Nak Bub, I heard someone behind me in line complaining about having to do this. On the other hand, what was going through my mind was ...

DING! DING! DING! Ladies and Gentlemen, Welcome to the MAIN EVENT!
L-L-L-L-LET'S GET READY TO R-R-R-RUMBLE!!!!!!!!!!

(Which is the music played during most of our school's promotions Nak Bub demos which end every promotion.)

[KSW_equus]

<eyes bright> there was a complainer in my class on Friday too...complaining keeps a person very busy finding reasons not to do things...that's a good way to get stuck & not move forward in training. I think we all get tired, that's normal, it's what we do when we get tired that marks the difference between people. People like Ember & Brian try to find reasons TO do things...they seek ways around the tired feelings...which is why, when graceful peaceful warriors such as Brian DBN & Ember DBN are promoted, the complainers will still be stuck...complaining... ;-) ^__< Equus

[ember]

They were different people. We have no idea what school the person Brian heard is from. This test, the mass of DBNs was split into two big groups, one for 2-4 stripes, the other 5+.

<eyes bright> there was a complainer in my class on Friday too

[ember]

I would agree with that. And for BB testing, I like the "trial" orientation, partly because of the numbers of people that we're dealing with. It's hard to judge 15-20 people on correct technique all at once. That's the sort of thing that it seems like would best show in class.

One thing I hadn't mentioned yet is that in Shotokan, I failed the test for green belt three times. I don't remember ever getting reasons, either - no "here's what you can work on". That was *very* frustrating. But a part of me suspects the reason I failed was because I wasn't giving up on TKD.

I guess I would want the colored belt levels to be more of a blend between "trial" and "exam". Or at least clarify where we are looking for memorization (new/current set) vs. skill (initial sets). I never know what to do when I'm grading colored belts, and they forget half a set.

Can we distinguish between someone who has blanked on a technique because of nervousness / stress, and someone who hasn't practiced it since the last time they "crammed for the exam"?

Anyway, the point is one of semantics, I think. "Test" as in "exam" or "test" as in "trial". I think we're more "trial" oriented.