status and how a keris is worn?

[Narrue]

I was wondering if there was a link between how the keris is worn and social status e.g. how high up on the back etc etc

[Narrue]

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[Narrue]

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[Abdullah1881]

interesting question. Can anyone tell me why the malays wear the keris on the left and why the javanese wear it at the back? or if there is a difference?

i heard the kris is regarded as a spiritual weapon, surely there must be deeper spiritual reasons behind such a tradition?

[tellner]

My Silat teacher says that his uncle (part Minangkabau) wore his in front with the hilt pointing up and to the right.

[Sgt_Major]

sounds like the standard position for a belt worn weapon. Easiest and fastest place to draw from, as a right hander. Its akin to wearing a pistol on your right hip.

[Gajah Silat]

Heres some useful info :)

http://www.nikhef.nl/~tonvr/keris/keris2/keris01.html

[Narrue]

Interesting to see that the Keris Is judged on nine categories, appropriate number for a keris ;) However some of those catogroys sound the same to me for example WESI & WOJO, GUWOYO & WANGUN.

WUTUH Wholeness, completeness of the blade
WESI The metal of the blade
GARAP Workmanship
SEPUH Age of the blade, the older the more valuable
PAMOR The Damascening
WOJO The "steel" cutting edge
GUWOYO Appearance
WANGUN Elegance
MUNGGUH Appropriateness

I wonder if it’s more traditional (ancient) to wear a keris on the back then on the side? Why is there that cultural difference and what’s the symbolism behind it?

[jameskorst]

salams,

this is my opinion.. may be the Malays put it in front because its part of their regalia n also act as a weapon.. the Java didnt use keris as their weapon in war, mayb the keris only act as a talisman o protector n their personal reagalia.. i also heard that, peninsular keris is crafted to bcome a weapon, different to kerises of java that mainly act as a family heirloom full with gold embedded on it.. it just an opinion though.. correct me if im wrong.

[RAMANA1]

i beleive pendekar sanders has a book out on keris,you can also get training material from him on subject..fighting with keris etc... :Angel:

[RAMANA1]

:Angel: yes -you can retreive info from pukulan cimande pusaka,pendekar sanders website on keris...few people in usa have done as much training with keris as pendekar--check him and his organization out..despite all the craziness in the silat community,hes truly a down to earth good guy....

[Narrue]

salams,

this is my opinion.. may be the Malays put it in front because its part of their regalia n also act as a weapon.. the Java didnt use keris as their weapon in war, mayb the keris only act as a talisman o protector n their personal reagalia.. i also heard that, peninsular keris is crafted to bcome a weapon, different to kerises of java that mainly act as a family heirloom full with gold embedded on it.. it just an opinion though.. correct me if im wrong.


The Balinese wear the keris on the back and Balinese keris contain the most elaborate decoration and largest amount of gold and gems. Here is an example of a Balinese keris handle. NICE ;)

[Narrue]

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[tellner]

Dude. You're not supposed to post pr0n on this board :)

[Tuankaki]

In a system I studied once, certain movements suggested that it was drawn from the small of the back. The pretty ones should be worn prominently at weddings though. Just a personal opinion....

[Narrue]

certain movements suggested that it was drawn from the small of the back.

I think so too.

[Sgt_Major]

Does the blade in question need to be a keris?

Or could the movement have been equally geared towards a golok? Or kujang?

[silatkali75]

just wanna say hi to everyone, about the topic,not sure. I will ask tonite in class.

[Narrue]

There might be a reason why the back should be reserved for holding the keris!

[Gajah Silat]

There might be a reason why the back should be reserved for holding the keris!

Good point, aside from any symbolic reasons, on a practical level a kris worn at the side would simply get in the way.

This would certainly be apparent when stepping back with some langkas. It would be entirely impractical in some 'lower' styles.

Just a thought :)

[nechesh]

Gentlemen, you might as well be asking why one group of hip-hop kids wears their ball caps backwards and another wear them to the side. As most of you probably know, Indonesia, though now one country, is made up of many different, even if related, cultures. Over hundreds of years and numerous religious influences different traditions arise in these various cultures. But if you want to go searching for a deeper reason why one island wears it's keris on it's back and another to one side or another you will most likely end up just hurting your brain. There probably was some reason hundreds of years ago, but i highly doubt you will find one now.
As for the use of the keris as a weapon, there is clear evidence that when the Chinese first encountered the Javanese in the 14thC that the keris was more than just ceremonial there. But the keris was certainly never intended as a main weapon of war, but more as a person side arm not unlike the European rapier. The rapier is not a weapon one would take into serious battle. Neither was the keris. The Bugis were known to be more likely to actually use their keris as physical weapons and this can probably be seen in the stoutness and general simplicity of their blades. As you can see from the photos provided, the Balinese wore their long blades up their backs with their often bejeweled deity hilts facing foward as if they were sitting on the owner's shoulder (to whisper in the owners ear?). IMO i doubt this was for the purpose of any kind of quick draw as statis keris such as these were probably never drawn for fighting. Though i am sure i will recieve argument here, but the keris as a traditional fighting blade that has traditional (more than a hundred or so years) martial forms seems highly unlikely to me. I don't believe i have ever seen any old or ancient text on keris fighting (if you got 'em, smoke 'em boys :) ). It seems a RELATIVELY recent invention to me. This does NOT mean invalid ot irrelavent, but if we are trying to connect the reason for wearing positions with martial movement i think we are probably on the wrong track. Even though the keris does have a history of some actual martial use it's statis as a symbol of power and authority has always been stronger. The answers to what position the keris is worn in probably has a whole lot more to do with that then how quickly it can be drawn in battle.

[Narrue]

I think the belief that everything in Silat or connected with the use of the keris will be written down in some text is flawed. There are many things which have never been committed to written word, so the belief that if you can’t find it in a book or ancient scroll it must be wrong is a big no no in Silat.

[Steve Perry]

There might be a reason why the back should be reserved for holding the keris!

Just blue-skying here, but in a culture where the daily garb was usually a sarong or cotton pants, and much of the sitting was done not in chairs but by squatting on one's heels, then the notion of the back-carry would make perfect sense. The keris is there, but not in the way during normal movement.

Once you start to sit in chairs with backs, having your keris behind you gets to be more of a problem. You either have to pull it around to the side -- front carry wouldn't be comfortable while sitting in a chair, either unless you angle the sheath considerably -- or remove it from your shash.

People who carry handguns have different positions for the same practical reasons -- small-of-the-back is great if you are walking around, but not comfortable or accessible if you are driving a car or sitting on a bus for any distance.

There may have been some status that evolved with the positioning, but I would guess it came from the practical.

The keris is not the most practical of weapons, for several reasons, and the ceremonial/magical aspects of it have been more important for at least the last hundred and fifty years. (For those of you who don't know, the handles of many Javanese and some Balinese kerises are held on with a twist of cloth or, traditionallly, a wrap of hair from a virgin woman. Stick the blade into something solid and pull on the handle, there is a fair chance the handle will come off in your hand. Not so with a golok, which is designed for real use.)

Also, the handles of Balinese blades can represent deities or human figures because that culture was more hindu or buddhist; Islam doesn't like portrayals of such things in art, hence the seven-plane "fever man" handle, which is not recognizably human, seen on many blades from elsewhere.

[nechesh]

I think the belief that everything in Silat or connected with the use of the keris will be written down in some text is flawed. There are many things which have never been committed to written word, so the belief that if you can’t find it in a book or ancient scroll it must be wrong is a big no no in Silat.

Certainly you are correct. Not EVERYTHING is written down, ever.....however, one would think that in a culture that does have a long history of the written word that SOME mention of a cultural icon such as the keris being used in the regional martial art would appear somewhere in ancient text. We are not talking about just any weapon here, but one of great spiritual and cultural importance to it's people. If it was used in Silat 200 or 300 years ago or more and had specific forms and movements it seems likely that someone would have committed that information to paper (or leaf :) ). Perhaps they did, but i am not aware of it. Does anybody on this forum have such information?
Steve, i am afraid your theory only works with the Balinese style of wear as Javanese wear them low to the rear and Bugis keris are general worn to the front in the belt. You are right about the method of attachment being problematic for practical use as a weapon, but the use of hair (not necessarily a virgin woman BTW) is a relatively modern tradition, say late 18th-early 19thC. When a more secure fit is needed pitch was often used which can be fairly secure when hardened. But ultimately your thought is correct that the keris is not the most ideal weapon for martial arts, another indication that it's use in Silat is a relatively new one.

[tellner]

Nechesh, the only thing that gives me a little pause are accounts of the keris being used as a weapon in what is now Indonesia and Malaysia back in the 18th and early 19th centuries by foreign observers. I don't have them on tap at the moment, but I remember reading accounts of British and Portugese observers who saw them being used in battle - mostly conflicts with local pirates. Perhaps they were a secondary weapon used only when the better ones were gone or broken. Maybe they were somewhat sturdier ones than what we see now. Could be that the writers called all big crooked knives "keris".

[nechesh]

Nechesh, the only thing that gives me a little pause are accounts of the keris being used as a weapon in what is now Indonesia and Malaysia back in the 18th and early 19th centuries by foreign observers. I don't have them on tap at the moment, but I remember reading accounts of British and Portugese observers who saw them being used in battle - mostly conflicts with local pirates. Perhaps they were a secondary weapon used only when the better ones were gone or broken. Maybe they were somewhat sturdier ones than what we see now. Could be that the writers called all big crooked knives "keris".

The question in my mind is not whether keris were used as practical weapons or not. I think they were, though certainly not by 18thC Javanese where the keris had become a non-physical weapon by that time. But the Bugis were known for their use of the keris and did make stouter blades to that purpose. Certainly the sword length Moro kris was (still is) quite an effective weapon.
What i am questioning is whether or not there is any evidence of an actual martial form for the keris in the context of Silat that is anymore than a hundred years old. In other words, a martial art form with specific moves and actions as is taught today by certain Silat schools. My feeling is that this is a relatively modern invention and that there are no taught martial art keris forms that date back to ancient Indonesia.

[Gajah Silat]

Yes Tellner, and particularly the Bugis (Boogeymen!) who used a wider weapon the Sundang for slashing and the badek for stabbing.

I believe the Sundang and Moro Kris are very similar.

Many weapons in many cultures develop symbolicaly, more so when there practical use becomes superceeded by more 'modern' weapons.

For instance most British regiments still carry swords for ceremonious duties.

[tellner]

Thanks for the clarification, guys. It reminds me of the kujang. I've seen old museum-pieces that were large, strong and well suited as weapons. Later examples were small, thin and wouldn't stand up to combative use. Obviously, they had evolved into something more symbolic or spiritual.

[Steve Perry]

C You are right about the method of attachment being problematic for practical use as a weapon, but the use of hair (not necessarily a virgin woman BTW) is a relatively modern tradition, say late 18th-early 19thC. When a more secure fit is needed pitch was often used which can be fairly secure when hardened. But ultimately your thought is correct that the keris is not the most ideal weapon for martial arts, another indication that it's use in Silat is a relatively new one.

Thanks, I appreciate your response, though I think you make my point. While the keris might have once been a useable weapon, and can certainly still be made to work as one in a pinch, in the last hundred and fifty or so years, the keris has been more ceremonial than not. Soon as they started keeping the handles on with cloth or hair, whenever that became common, then it would seem apparent they didn't think they were going to be doing any heavy stabbing.

Modern keris lore seems to allow that the furniture -- handle and sheath and adornments (selut, mendak) -- are to be kept relatively fresh, upgraded from time-to-time as they become worn. So changing the dress would be made easier with the friction-hold handles; removing one glued-on would be harder.

I am privileged to own several kerises -- Javanese, Balinese, and a couple from the Malay Peninsula. Most of them are less than a hundred years old. The oldest of them dates from the late 1700's. All of them have cloth- or hair-twist to keep the handles on. All of the older ones have relatively new furniture, and most of them feature the seven-plane handle with small cecekan (carved, kala-like faces.)

Given the complexities of luk and pamor, (waves and patterns in the steel) it seems apparent to me that the ceremonial/magical aspects of the keris have been more important than the dagger as a weapon for a long time. There are books written about the many varied patterns in the steel -- Tammis did a three-volume set -- and as has been pointed out, fighting styles using the keris would likely be a) very old or b) fairly new.

[Narrue]

I remember the first time I picked up a keris I thought "what a beautifully crafted knife" but at the same time thinking "boy I would hate to have to go into battle just with this". The blade itself is quite large compared to the tiny steel rod which secures it to the handle. I can imagine the blade flying out of the handle or the handle splitting leaving you in the middle of a battle field just holding a handle.
I think the keris was never intended as a primary weapon in battle but more as a talisman or magic charm. Considering all the storys and myths about the keris I am left with one word which I think sums up the keris and its use fairly accurately, WAND. It seams to me that a keris is/was all ways valued as more of a spiritual weapon than a weapon for physical combat. Personally I think in battle the keris would be worn on the back whilst the primary weapon or weapons would be worn on the side, being faster to draw.

[asli]

salam,

to my knowledge, the duel between Hang Tuah and Hang Jebat used keris as weapons..one of the main weapon then was keris Taming Sari (which is still seeked till this day)..and this was said to happen centuries ago, during the kingdom of Kesultanan Melayu Melaka..i think almost every malaysians know this story.

there's a saying "kenal gerak, kenal senjata", which means a lil' bit something like this,"know the movements, n u'll know the weapon"..maybe if someone can translate that better :) ..

seeing is believing..i guess unless until we see it with our own two eyes of how the the masters are using keris in a real fight/duel, then there will always be disbelief about the practicallity of keris in a real fight..till then, happy searching!

[tellner]

Yes Tellner, and particularly the Bugis (Boogeymen!) who used a wider weapon the Sundang for slashing and the badek for stabbing.

I believe the Sundang and Moro Kris are very similar.

No doubt about the Moro Kris. There's plenty of good history of them being used as primary weapons in war. And every single example I have is sturdy enough to stand up to some serious abuse.

[nechesh]

Modern keris lore seems to allow that the furniture -- handle and sheath and adornments (selut, mendak) -- are to be kept relatively fresh, upgraded from time-to-time as they become worn. So changing the dress would be made easier with the friction-hold handles; removing one glued-on would be harder.

Steve, i don't think this lore is particularly modern. Given the climate and general usage wooden sheaths tend to wear and crack fairly easily. It has always been thought direspectful to the keris to keep it in damaged dress.
I don't believe it was ever the tradition to permanently glue hilts on. As i mentioned, pitch was sometimes used, but it is fairly easy to remove with a bit of heat. Pitch, for those who don't know, is a natual resinous material that hardens when it dries. I have only encountered one keris in my collection that used pitch (i have since removed it) and believe me, that blade wasn't about to fly off the handle even in fierce battle. But a bit of heat to the blade softened up enough to remove the hilt.
In my mind there is little doubt that the keris was designed as a fighting tool, but certainly not every bladed weapon has a long history of martial arts movements tied to them. Very early reports of Chinese encounters with the Javanese (14th-15thC) tell of every man and even young boys on the island both carried keris and used them often in arguments. The Chinese reporter tells of people being stabbed every day with keris. It was used as a personal side arm not unlike the rapier in Europe. Like the rapier was effective against another rapier, so the keris was against another keris. If a martial form did develop around the keris at this time i have serious doubts that it is the same form that is presently taught in silat today. It seems the keris may have moved into it's nonfighting phase in Jawa sometime after the establishment of Islam (which is not to say it didn't have spiritual and status context before that) at the end of the Mojopahit kingdom. Very little actual knowledge exists today about the specifics of the Mojopahit and it's customs in regards to keris. We can make certain guesses based on what we know about later periods in Bali that laid claim to Mojopahit's traditions, but even this infomation is skewed by time and cultural differences. I am afraid that without the invention of a time machine much is lost to the past forever.
Frankly Asli, i tend to take the stories of Hang Tuah and Hang Jebat and other legends such as flying keris as metaphor and therefore with a grain of salt. These are stories, not unlike the parables of Christ, are meant to teach, but their factual history stands somewhat on shaky ground. I'll bet two masters really can go at it with keris in hand in quite effective ways, but this hardly proves the art is ancient. I would imagine a keris can be a very good weapon pitted against another keris, but against any number of superior fighting blades the story would be different.

[asli]

Frankly Asli, i tend to take the stories of Hang Tuah and Hang Jebat and other legends such as flying keris as metaphor and therefore with a grain of salt. These are stories, not unlike the parables of Christ, are meant to teach, but their factual history stands somewhat on shaky ground. I'll bet two masters really can go at it with keris in hand in quite effective ways, but this hardly proves the art is ancient. I would imagine a keris can be a very good weapon pitted against another keris, but against any number of superior fighting blades the story would be different like i said, seeing is believing..beliefs are just our personal prefence..it varies from one person to another..some belief in christ, some dont..some belief hang tuah was real, some dont..it's a matter of preference..
maybe we should do more researches on the characteristic of the malay weapons..for every shape, there's a reason.differenciate the weapon that are used in battle and the weapons that r used in agriculture.the characteristic are so different..why the malay weapons are not so sharp yet not so blunt but still is deadly..if it's too sharp, than it's not considered as a true malay weapon, yet still a weapon, because of the different characteristic.

[nechesh]

Yep, seeing is believing.....so can you tell us what you've seen Asli? :)
Understand, i am not doubting the historical existence of Hang Tuah and Hang Jebat, or even that they battled, but it has become the stuff of legends and it is our human nature to exaggerate out heros. Did George Washington ever chop down a cherry tree or throw a silver dollar across the Potomac River. I doubt it. Even the more "historically accurate" accounts of his exploits as a great general are recently being brought into question. We create the heros we need for the times regardless of actual truth. I am not questioning whether or not this is a good or bad thing, but i am unwilling to believe that a keris could fly in battle and strike down an enemy based on legend and folk lore. There are truths to be found in them, but they are generally metaphorical.
BTW, i have many true Malay keris in my collection and a couple of them are actually quite sharp, especially a rather formitable 19thC Balinese blade i own. Most do not have real edge sharpness as the keris is a stabbing weapon, not a slashing one, but you do occassional run across it.

[tellner]

Did George Washington ever chop down a cherry tree or throw a silver dollar across the Potomac River. I doubt it.

Probably not, but George Bush tossed a trillion of them down a rat-hole :p

[nechesh]

Probably not, but George Bush tossed a trillion of them down a rat-hole :p

LOL!!! Thanks Todd. Best Laugh i've had all day!

[Orang Jawa]

I beleive pendekar sanders has a book out on keris,you can also get training material from him on subject..fighting with keris etc
****************
I respect Mr. Sanders knowledge in Silat, we are agree on many issue and disagree on other, and most of all on the use of keris. My dad gave me a family keris went I went to the USA in the early'68. For us, in our tradition, keris is not a weapon of choice for combat. Keris is a symbol of family lineage.
I've studied many silat/japanese weapons, but not keris. My Uncle said: Keris was never use for combat! PERIOD!
Many people in Indonesia belief some keris is posses, spiritual, or have jin, etc. They do made a celebration with it, gave them a bath with flowers so on. I do respect my keris, I took good care of it as I took good care of my Shinto sword.
And I could be wrong too,
Tristan

[nechesh]

Tristan, i don't believe that you are wrong or even that your Uncle lied to you about the use of the keris in Jawa. I think it is more complicated than that. Jawa has moved through a few cultural changes since the Mojopahit period, religious influence being only one factor. The way the keris has been used and percieved in Jawa has not remained the same over the centuries. That your uncle believes the keris was NEVER used as a fighting instrument in Jawa PERIOD! is quite common within the later and current cultural structure of the island, but written accounts from Mojopahit times tell a different story. While even written accounts of the time could (and probably do) contain inaccuracies, mostly due to a misunderstanding of meeting a new culture, it seems unlikely to me that the passages which describe observations of Jawanese fighting with their keris would be made up or be some kind of cultural misunderstanding.
When Islam took over in Jawa many who were not in agreement fled to Bali where to a certain extent the Mojopahit influences continued and Hinduism flourished. Still Bali was not Jawa and had it's own indigineous cultural influences to add. And over the years that culture evolved and change as well. It seems that everywhere the keris developed it had it's own subtle and slightly different traditions. But it also seems unlikely to me that it would begin in Jawa as a purely spiritual tool only to be taken up as a physical weapon (even if not the primary one) by the Balinese and the Bugis.

[Orang Jawa]

I agree with you in general, since I remembered watching wayang kulit, wayang orang and ketoprak where keris is being use for fight to the death. You may be right about the religious influenced. My Dad and Uncle have somewhat blood connection to Kraton in Jogyakarta. To my knowledge, keris is a symbol of class system instead of combative tools, can it be use for combat? of course. But as far as combative tool, it is hard to determine the effectiveness nor they have been used in combat. I was born in Jakarta, I saw many old pictures where the soldiers riding a horse with tombak or pedang and have keris in his back. Or the foot soldiers with long weapons. I have not seen description where the warriors use keris in a war. My Dad and my Uncle's teacher, and his teacher's teacher, and his teacher's teacher's teacher (is that such a word?) Never learn keris fighting nor teach any. So it may be is just in our family system that we don't learn keris fight.
And I could be wrong too,
Tristan

[nechesh]

Tristan, i don't think it is just a family thing. My point is that as cultural influences changed in Jawa so did the attitude towards the keris. As you point out, you have seen pictures of soldiers riding into combat with tombak and pedang with keris at their backs.It would be interesting to know what period those drawings date back to. Certainly the tombak and pedang were always considered the superior and preferred weapons of war. The keris was brought into battle for more talismanic purposes. Still, in a pinch it could be used if you were otherwise disarmed. I don't believe the keris was ever intented as a weapon of war. This doesn't mean, however, that there wasn't a time when people might end up fighting with keris. People get into fights everyday and if the only weapon you have on your person is a keris (and back in the day every male carried one daily) then it is likely that it could get drawn in anger. I think there came a time (i couldn't say when, but probably some time after the fall of the Mojopahit kingdom) when the use of the keris in this way became strictly taboo in Jawa. It is probably best in enforcing a taboo to adopt the belief that it has always been this way. But since we have written observation from early periods that it was not i find myself questioning this assertion.

[Orang Jawa]

Salam hormat Neches,
Thanks for sharing and I agree with you in general :)
But...;(
> People get into fights everyday and if the only weapon you have on your person is a keris (and back in the day every male carried one daily)
****************
Back in the day every male carried keris daily? I have doubt on this, they may carry parang or other weapons but not keris, since keris is reserved for the upperclass system, just like katana during the Meiji period.
Keris is a symbol cast system say to speak...
I can be wrong too.
Tristan

[nechesh]

Salam hormat Tristan,
Sorry, but there is nothing i have ever read or hear before that claims that the keris were reserved for the upper class system. The common man was not likely to own an empu made keris (those were reserved mostly for the kraton and the very well off) , but many villages had pande who made keris for the lower classes. There were certain restictions over the years about specific aspects of the keris. For instance, there was a period when only court members could own keris with pamor on the gonjo. Red enamel on the sheath pendok was reserved for the royal family. There were times when gold adornments were restricted, not that a poor famer could afford that anyway. I have quite a few village keris in my collection, one which dates back to the Mojopahit. When is it that you believe keris were restricted to only the upper classes?

[Orang Jawa]

Salam hormat Nesche,
>The common man was not likely to own an empu made keris (those were reserved mostly for the kraton and the very well off)
*****************
I stand corrected, you are absolutely right! :) I was talking about the empu made keris. Matur Suwun.
Tristan

[tellner]

And upper class people never got angry and fought each other? :)

[Orang Jawa]

And upper class people never got angry and fought each other?
**************
Yes to the first but for the second somebody else to take care of it :)
Tristan

[tellner]

Reminds me of an old joke. The captain and the sergeant were arguing about making love. The captain said it was about half work and half pleasure. The sergeant said it all work. A private, sweeping up outside, stuck his head in and said "It's all pleasure. If there were any work you'd have some private do it for you."

[RAMANA1]

tristan-are you presently teaching cimande?have you ever met pendekar sanders?

[Orang Jawa]

tristan-are you presently teaching cimande?have you ever met pendekar sanders?

NO, I have never met Pendekar Sanders, to tell the truth, I have never met any silat player with Pendekar title either. May be someday, huh?
Tristan

[Kejawen]

Salam Persilatan,
Interesting topic...I've been wondering this very question since i've started to get myself in silat. To my opinion, there is two possibilities i could think of:1. keris is held at rear by Javanese to hide from view of enemy at confrontation; 2.Most Javanese silat gerak with low Kuda-kuda thus if the keris is held in front, it would obstruct the smooth lower body movements of the Javanese warrior. On the other hand, the malays wore them in front for quickdraw and to display their status in the society. Correct me if i'm wrong. :)

[nechesh]

Kejawen, i don't believe it is a matter of correcting you if you are wrong, it's more a matter of we just don't know, so my thought are as valid as yours. But given your reasoning, why wouldn't the Jawanese wear them in front just as those on the Malay peninsula? The status the keris portrayed would be just as important in Jawa as in Trengganu, or Sulawesi, Sumatra or Bali for that matter so your reasoning really doesn't explain the difference in the position of the keris on the body. Also, i have seen pictures of Jawanese where the keris, though situated to the back, appears clearly visible at the side from the front of the person, so i do not believe consealment would have been the issue. Anyway, since every man carried one all the time back in the day concealment would be a non-issue. You knew everyman was armed. And since it showed status and was part of everyday dress it was meant to be seen.
I think Narrue's original thought that wearing position may have somehow been related to status might be in the right direction in certain Indonesian cultures. Most often we see the Balinese wearing them high on the back so that the ornamented hilts pop up over the shoulder. But i have also seen images of Balinese wearing them at their sides. Perhaps this did have something to do with social standing. Keep in mind that social standing and the transfer of power (spiritual and otherwise) have always been the most important aspects of the keris even in the days when it was still used as a weapon. I think that it is probably useless to try to ascribe martial reasoning to how the keris was worn in different cultures since i believe this was always about a social and spiritual statement more than a martial one.

[tellner]

I've even seen old pictures of men wearing a keris in front or behind and carrying a bigger, less ornamented one in the left hand.

"Well, you've got your everyday working sticker. Then you've got your fancy Sunday-go-meeting sticker. Don't make me use the fancy one." :)

For those who have spent time in Indonesia, how are everyday working knives carried in places where people use them? In the front? Behind? Off to one side?

[Kiai Carita]

I've even seen old pictures of men wearing a keris in front or behind and carrying a bigger, less ornamented one in the left hand.

"Well, you've got your everyday working sticker. Then you've got your fancy Sunday-go-meeting sticker. Don't make me use the fancy one." :)

For those who have spent time in Indonesia, how are everyday working knives carried in places where people use them? In the front? Behind? Off to one side?


Tellner, ini Indonesia you see people carrying their everyday working knives in their hand, mostly. If they bother to make a scabbard, they might put their knife either in the back or the side.

Where you wear your a keris, in Jawa, means different things. You wear it a different way were you riding a horse or pony. Different again if you are going to see the king or perform wayang kulit. If you have it in you back but diagonal to your left it means you wish ill to the person you are dealing with. If you wear it in front, it means that you have left material things behind and were concentrating on the spiritual. An ulama would wear his keris in the front.

In the rather recent past, many people wore three kerises. One in the back and one on either side. The one on the back would be yours, and either side would be gifts from your parents and your inlaws when you got married.

The keris is not primarily a martial weapon. The weapons drills you practise in old Jawanese pencak in comics are for pedang sabet, pedang sudhuk, golok, tongkat, trisula, kerambit, tombak (long and short), sarung, destar, selendang, tali, pecut, bandul, panah.

In the keris world, a handsome and sturdy and well worked keris with gold is not necessarily thought to be esoterically superior to a simple plain one which would snap if thrust into a bone. It is an esoteric weapon, not a material one, primarily.

Warm salaams to all,
Kiai Carita

[Narrue]

In the keris world, a handsome and sturdy and well worked keris with gold is not necessarily thought to be esoterically superior to a simple plain one which would snap if thrust into a bone. It is an esoteric weapon, not a material one, primarily.Kiai Carita

I remember this story about a guy who was very sensitive to outside vibrations. One day he was in a shop in Indonesia and he seen a very old keris blade which was also in very bad shape. Anyway he could feel something strange about this blade so he bought it.
The shop keeper practically gave it away since it was in such bad shape.
When the guy got home with the blade and examined it further he could feel something inside the blade so he split the blade open with a hammer.

Amongst the layers of the blade he found a piece of fabric/parchment folded up and located in the centre of the blade. The strange thing was that on the paper there was Sanskrit letters. He said from that point on he understood how to make a true keris.

I have to say I don’t understand how you can forge a piece of paper into a red hot blade without burning it but I do wonder if in old times it may have been a practice to incorporate charms (probably metalic) into the blade to give it spiritual power.

The interesting thing is that when a charm (jimats) is made it is drawn onto a piece of paper, cloth, metal or white substance with intention and then empowered with a mantra and given its purpose. From that point onwards it is considered as a living thing and thus it must be cared for as a living thing. If this is not done and the jimats is not treated with respect it can die and its living energy disappears. To keep it alive the owner must offer it incense (food) and prayers at least once a year.
This seems to tie in well with the ceremony’s that are preformed for a keris so I wonder if there is some truth behind that story.

[Jebat]

I've been told the Malay Bugis way is on the back to the right.
And that's how I wore it during my wedding too....
The old way was the same but hidden by overhanging clothing.
At the Siam court in the 17th century it was worn in front to the left. I guess there are many ways. Whether it is suposed to be seen or not is probably the most important reason for wearing it a certain way.....


interesting question. Can anyone tell me why the malays wear the keris on the left and why the javanese wear it at the back? or if there is a difference?

i heard the kris is regarded as a spiritual weapon, surely there must be deeper spiritual reasons behind such a tradition?

[nechesh]

I remember this story about a guy who was very sensitive to outside vibrations. One day he was in a shop in Indonesia and he seen a very old keris blade which was also in very bad shape. Anyway he could feel something strange about this blade so he bought it.
The shop keeper practically gave it away since it was in such bad shape.
When the guy got home with the blade and examined it further he could feel something inside the blade so he split the blade open with a hammer.

Amongst the layers of the blade he found a piece of fabric/parchment folded up and located in the centre of the blade. The strange thing was that on the paper there was Sanskrit letters. He said from that point on he understood how to make a true keris.

I have to say I don’t understand how you can forge a piece of paper into a red hot blade without burning it but I do wonder if in old times it may have been a practice to incorporate charms (probably metalic) into the blade to give it spiritual power.

The interesting thing is that when a charm (jimats) is made it is drawn onto a piece of paper, cloth, metal or white substance with intention and then empowered with a mantra and given its purpose. From that point onwards it is considered as a living thing and thus it must be cared for as a living thing. If this is not done and the jimats is not treated with respect it can die and its living energy disappears. To keep it alive the owner must offer it incense (food) and prayers at least once a year.
This seems to tie in well with the ceremony’s that are preformed for a keris so I wonder if there is some truth behind that story.

Narrue, this is one of those stories i would take with a very large grain of salt. I personally like stories of stange and magickal natures, but i, like yourself, don't see how a piece of parchment could survive the forging process. Also i wonder why the writing would be Sanskrit and not Kawi and why a translation of the writing is not a part of the story. It seems to me that that would be the most important element. It also seems rather assuming of this "sensitive" fellow that he would now understand how a "true" keris was made.
The "charm" to a keris blade is integral to the blade itself. There is no need to place parchment within a keris to make it mystical. The mpu, though fasting, prayer and incantation makes the keris a jimat of sorts. Particular pamor patterns are worked into the blade to add to the intention of the charm.
You are, i believe, correct to say that the living spirit that the mpu imbues into the blade can die or leave if proper care and feeding are not adhered to. Of course, not all keris are so concieved or mpu made. Perhaps this is what the story refers to when talking about how one makes a "true" keris. ;)

[nechesh]

I've been told the Malay Bugis way is on the back to the right.
And that's how I wore it during my wedding too....
The old way was the same but hidden by overhanging clothing.
At the Siam court in the 17th century it was worn in front to the left. I guess there are many ways. Whether it is suposed to be seen or not is probably the most important reason for wearing it a certain way.....

All the Malays i have seen wearing keris in contemporary times have worn theirs in front.

[Orang Jawa]

I'm with Kiai all the way. I too never heard people used keris as a combative tools.
My dad came from Jogja and my mom from Solo, we wore keris in our back. The last time I wore my keris in my back, my blangkon on my head and Kraton custom wear, it was during my Sunat celebration. Is a big things for the family tradition. My Dad have an Rd. title too, but he never used it, by blood I have those tittle too but none of my brothers ever bother to add it to their names. It was just an old tradition that we kept it inside the family. My dad gave family keris that day as a symbol of adulthood. I still have it, take care of it and respect it. But I don't do the ceremonial cleaning like most people do, with flowers during suro month etc.
Am I the only progressive and an open minded keris owner on this forum?
Tristan

[nechesh]

Please forgive me Orang Jawa for correcting your English, but i am sure you meant to say that you wore your keris AT your back, not IN it. I would hate to see you hurt yourself. ;) :D
You wrote:
Am I the only progressive and an open minded keris owner on this forum?
Could you further explain what you mean by this. I would like to know if i qualify for your progressive club or not. :)

[Orang Jawa]

Please forgive me Orang Jawa for correcting your English, but i am sure you meant to say that you wore your keris AT your back, not IN it. I would hate to see you hurt yourself. ;) :D
Could you further explain what you mean by this. I would like to know if i qualify for your progressive club or not. :)

Thank you Nesche, You are funny man!!! :o
I meant that keris is just that a sharp object and a family symbol. Some of the keris owners went overboard and treating keris like they have a magical power. Myths surrounding keris are abundant!! I took a good care of my keris as I took a good care of my Shinto Sword, also given to me by my dad.
So if you don't wash your keris with flowers, praying mantra, etc. then you are a member of progressive keris owner :)
No offense intended,
Tristan

[Kiai Carita]

I remember this story about a guy who was very sensitive to outside vibrations. One day he was in a shop in Indonesia and he seen a very old keris blade which was also in very bad shape. Anyway he could feel something strange about this blade so he bought it.
The shop keeper practically gave it away since it was in such bad shape.
When the guy got home with the blade and examined it further he could feel something inside the blade so he split the blade open with a hammer.

Amongst the layers of the blade he found a piece of fabric/parchment folded up and located in the centre of the blade. The strange thing was that on the paper there was Sanskrit letters. He said from that point on he understood how to make a true keris.

I have to say I don’t understand how you can forge a piece of paper into a red hot blade without burning it but I do wonder if in old times it may have been a practice to incorporate charms (probably metalic) into the blade to give it spiritual power.

The interesting thing is that when a charm (jimats) is made it is drawn onto a piece of paper, cloth, metal or white substance with intention and then empowered with a mantra and given its purpose. From that point onwards it is considered as a living thing and thus it must be cared for as a living thing. If this is not done and the jimats is not treated with respect it can die and its living energy disappears. To keep it alive the owner must offer it incense (food) and prayers at least once a year.
This seems to tie in well with the ceremony’s that are preformed for a keris so I wonder if there is some truth behind that story.


Warm Salaams to all,

Your story doesn't make any sense Narrue! Breaking open a keris to find paper / parchment there? With sanskrit letters? ... Hmmmmm... Paper entered Jawa culture with Islam, probably through China. Before Islam, all books and letters were written on the leaf of the tal palm (rontal) like they are still made in Bali. So if there was paper, the alphabet should have not been Sanskrit. And no 'sensitive' person would ever imagine breaking open a keris blade.

A jimat is a talisman, it is a composite word from the Jawa words siji dirumat meaning: one and looked after. Anything can be a jimat, even a peice of goat ****. There is a popular saying, apa boleh buat tai kambing bulat-bulat, dimakan jadi obat, disimpan jadi jimat... which means, what can one do? Goats **** in round peices. Eat one and it will be medicine. Keep one and it wil be a jimat. ...What you describe is more specific than a jimat, being a rajah.

The ceremony to cleanse the keris (and other tosan aji) in Jawa is done every Sura (Jawa New Year) but the tradition probably has the same roots as in the Tumpak Landhep ceremony in Bali.

According to Jawa kerisology, the power in a keris is not because of charms insereted but because of the choice of metals (iron, steel, and pamor material). Traditionally the Jawa Mpu categorized iron into dozens of different types depending on the appearance, the sound when hit, the smell and other aspects of feeling. Very unscientific. It is believed that the different types of iron have different esoteric powers, and the skill and the spiritual power of the Mpu is to enhance and control that power.

I believe that in the whole island of Jawa and Madura and Bali, the keris was never meant to be primarily a stabbing (physical) weapon.

That is why there is no REAL Jawa silat that studies keris as a weapon and you need to go to California to meet a Pendekar who claims to teach keris - a claim which to most Indonesian silat lovers shows that the Pendekar in questions's talks more that he actually knows (for whatever reason). In Malaysia, it appears that the keris was always both, a phisical and spiritual weapon. The way the Malays attach the ukiran to the keris is different to the Jawa way and to my eye seems to have stabbing in between ribs in mind.

There are of course many written refferences where the keris in Jawa was used as a physical weapon, and when Raffles wrote the History of Java during the Napoleonic era, most noblemen would carry three keris and often also a wedung.

In the wayang kulit, the only character who is always ready to draw his keris is Buta Cakil, a villian who always gets killed by his own blade. The real heros only use their keris for the last resort.

Warm Salaams to all,

KC.

[nechesh]

Thank you Nesche, You are funny man!!! :o
I meant that keris is just that a sharp object and a family symbol. Some of the keris owners went overboard and treating keris like they have a magical power. Myths surrounding keris are abundant!! I took a good care of my keris as I took a good care of my Shinto Sword, also given to me by my dad.
So if you don't wash your keris with flowers, praying mantra, etc. then you are a member of progressive keris owner :)
No offense intended,
Tristan

I am glad you appreciate my humor and i certainly take no offense from your words. I guess i am only a part-progressive in your thinking. As you say, Myths about the keris abound and must mostly be taken with a very large grain of salt (heh! i think i have been over using that analogy lately :D ), but still, myths exist for a reason and should not be equated with "lies". They are there to teach us something. Personally, i live in a magickal paradigm, so for me just about anything can be magickal. :) Any object can be used as a focal point for magick, that is, the changing of one's environment according to one's will. An object like a keris (a good one at least) is already predisposed to this purpose due to the amount of energy and focus that went into it's making and the care and respect given it throughout it's existence. I do continue to treat my all my keris with that same respect and care. I have washed and re-stained keris that needed it for restoration purpose, though i don't do this yearly as is the tradition. However i don't necessarily believe that any of my keris have magickal powers per se. The power is the creator's and it flows through me (or anyone who choses to work such paths) and can be directed through a keris (or other objects) if one chooses. What is Silat, if not the understanding and redirection of this energy flow? It can be done with or without tools.
The keris is also as you say, a family symbol of sorts, but it is not like a family crest. It is a container, so to speak, of the bloodline that it has been passed down. As such it is very magickal indeed. It hold the magick that is your family line. I guess it all depends on how you define magick. It is not the stuff you see on the TV show "Charmed" :)
I agree with Kiai to a certain extent. The keris in Jawa today and yesterday is far more a talismanic object than an actual weapon. Still, i am unconvinced it has always been that way, but certainly for a very long time. Probably at least since the coming of Islam to the island (though not necessarily because of it). I do not believe that there is any tradition of a Silat form of keris fighting to be found in Jawa, Bali or Madura.

[Narrue]

I am aware that the story presents factors which are not explainable e.g. How can you place a piece of paper in a blade without burning it in the forging process and why in Sanskrit. As for breaking the blade open as I explained the blade was pretty much useless anyway so it was no master piece. The story is probably not to be taken literally but perhaps has inner meanings or teachings i.e. out of all the blades it was the rubbish looking blade which was special. Perhaps it tells us not to judge a book by its cover etc

It is true that a portion of the power in a keris is generated by combining various metals in pacific arrangements to produce magnetism of sorts. When it is said that a keris was made using several types of metals or water collected from several rivers it is not to be taken literally in my opinion although I would not be surprised if some actually did try it. The result after this process is just a piece of magnetised steel. My interest in that story was simply that it connected the jimat and the keris. I think the gist of the story is simply that a true keris blade is a jimat of sorts i.e. it has been given a purpose, character or mission in addition to the combination of various metals i.e. it has both breath and mind. You could say its an artificially created being of sorts.

[Orang Jawa]

I agree that Myths is not equal to lies...But why we have so many stories, legend, myth, and ritual for Keris?
Japanese and Chinese people did some ritual with their weapons but not as much as silat people in Indonesia and Malaysia. To this day, this people believe in Keris magical power.

I'm the proud owner of a Shinto Sword, I respected this sword very much so as I do with my family Keris. But I never thought that my sword can fly? I never thought that my sword have magical power even though the sword it self survived many battles? The making of the sword is very interesting indeed. My question is this, is anyone ever saw the keris magical power through their own eyes?
Thanks,
Tristan

[nechesh]

In spite of the esteem in which the Shinto sword is held in Japan it still appears to me that the place of the keris in Indonesian cultures is far greater. One must look beyond the common family keris which holds importance for that family alone to the hierarchy of the kratons and the place of various royal keris to sustain and transfer the power of entire kingdoms. It is from this level that such mythology flows. It is also in that atmosphere of belief, that magickal paradigm of sekala and niskala, the seen and unseen worlds, that such myths are grown. But you rarely will hear myths about some peasant farmer who had a magick keris. The culture of the keris in Indonesia is a reflection of the higher kraton culture from which these stories flow. I think it is harder to see the importance of magick in these cultures in this modern age of computers and high technology (a sort of magick in and of itself though).
Did keris ever fly? I dunno....did Jesus ever walk on water? Or any of the other miracles we read about in any holy book? Some people believe thes myths ardently to this day. Some see them as more as parables that teach us a spiritual lesson.
If you are looking for proof of a "magickal keris" i doubt you will ever find it. If people claim that they can show you one that flies or that they can make to rise or that sheds water i would personally be very skeptical. These tricks can easily be done with slight of hand. And i don't believe keris should be made to do tricks like trained dog. Nor does this kind of display reveal the "true" magick and power to be found in a keris. But if you ask me if i have ever experienced a keris that i can "feel" energy from i would tell you absolutely. Will you "feel" the same energy from that keris? I couldn't tell you.That doesn't mean that it doesn't exist for me however. If you want to know have i ever ritually used a keris to achieve an end through application of will alone and was it successful i would answer absolutely. But it matters not if you believe me, my ritual was still successful for me and i have benefited from the fruits of my efforts. I can only "prove" magick to myself, not to others. Magick is not a thing that can be disected and analyzed so easily. Just as it is said that the true mystical experience cannot be put into words, nor can the magickal experience be proven. It is all a matter of perspective....and of faith and belief. If you live a magickal life you will find magick everywhere. If you don't you probably won't see it if it hits you over the head. Nothing wrong with that, just a different way of coping with the universe. :)

[Orang Jawa]

I got it Nesche, thanks :)
I'm not critizing nor that my purpose is to offended anyone either :) My appology in advance!
Just my curiosity Nesche, when you are talking about your experience holding your keris, you felt the energy from that keris "before" you know the history of that keris or "after"?
I went home to Indonesia many moons ago, I knows some empu in Depok, Pak Lek's friend, I came to see him and asked him to clean the keris, the sword and one of my military's knife that I've been carried it in Vietnam. When he touch my keris, he dilligently paid respect and continue to examine and say nothing. When he touch my Shinto sword, his face changes and I saw his hand trimble..He continue and said nothing. By the time he got to my knife, I can see his face starting to sweats, I don't know maybe from the hotclimate weather or he senses something from that knife. He looked at me and said: " something is really bad about this knife, I felt a bad vibes from it." To cut the story short, from that on, I placed that knife on my trunk with my old military souvenirs, locked and in the safe place.
Some people still believe in tailsman too :)
I always pay my highest respect to my keris but I do not felt the energy coming from that, may be because I did not use it for anything but placing the keris in the respected place. However, I felt the energy coming from my sword. As a matter of fact, he sang so loudly when I swang that thing :) Not ssssh noice but sweet sound mind you :) Been swang that sword since I was a teen. My dad said: "They sword have been through many battles, therefore lets pretend that many of victims soul is still stay in that sword. Respected as you want to be respected."
In that regards, I believe him somewhat, but I highly respected my sword. One day I was careless and disrespect the sword, I have a deep cut in my palm, and 12 sticthes later :) So I had learn my lesson!

I think because I don't do anything with my keris, that's why I have a hard times to understand the important of cultural/ritual tradition is. Thank you for giving me the historical/cultural background of the keris.
Tristan

[Narrue]

My view on this subject is that I do not honour keris no more then I would honour a piece of magnetised steel. I recognise that there may be an energy present but I do not feel that a keris is a spiritual object or that it has spirit dwelling in the blade. You do not venerate your electrical outlet socket because it has electrical power so neither should you venerate a blade just because it has a type of magnetism in it. On the other hand that magnetism has a purpose and it will leave if the blade is not cared for in the correct manner in the same way your car battery will go dead if it is not cared for correctly.
I think most of us have come to the conclusion that the keris was not designed just for physical battle but other factors seem more important in its development.


With respect to the keris I think a stone carving on mount Lawu in central Java is very interesting. The character seen forging the keris Indonesian name is Bima/ Arya werkudara but he is a character of the Vedic Indian Mahabharata epic, the original of which is in Sanskrit. If any of you are familiar with the original Indian version I would like to know his Indian name i.e. what name is he known by in India?
In this depiction he is seen forging a keris under guidance from an elephant headed god who could be ganesha or Indera.
In the Javanese story Bima receives knowledge on mount reksa muka when a small god climbs in his left ear and instructs him. In this depiction I feel that the small being in the elephant gods hand is a representative of that god. He acts as a messenger for the elephant god.
If we remember that Bima is actually Indian then essentially what we have here depicted in rock is an Indian man constructing a keris under the guidance of an Vedic Indian elephant god. What is the depiction telling us, Bima is Indian, Mount reksa muka is in India and the keris origins are in ?

[nechesh]

My view on this subject is that I do not honour keris no more then I would honour a piece of magnetised steel. I recognise that there may be an energy present but I do not feel that a keris is a spiritual object or that it has spirit dwelling in the blade. You do not venerate your electrical outlet socket because it has electrical power so neither should you venerate a blade just because it has a type of magnetism in it. On the other hand that magnetism has a purpose and it will leave if the blade is not cared for in the correct manner in the same way your car battery will go dead if it is not cared for correctly.

Well Narrue, i think that with this statement you are showing more than just disrespect for the keris itself, but for the entire culture that has brought you the Silat you also claim to study. Frankly i think you will never understand the keris or Silat if you continue to refuse to understand the cultures from which they come. The significance of the keris in Indonesian culture cannot be compared to the utilitarian purpose of an electrical outlet. How can you claim that the keris is not a spiritual object when it is accepted as such by so many? What you can say is that you don't personally get the spiritual connection, which at this point i rather expect, but to say "neither should you venerate a blade just because it has a type of magnetism in it" only displays you vast ignorance on the subject. It isn't even a matter of what YOU believe, my friend, but what others do. A person who has recieved a pusaka blade past down through generations is not venerating some kind of "magnetism" in that blade. It is a symbol of his family, his bloodline and carries with it the power and wisdom of his ancestors. I don't think you need to be Indonesian to understand this. Nor do you need to believe in the mysticism of the keris culture to respect it.

With respect to the keris I think a stone carving on mount Lawu in central Java is very interesting. The character seen forging the keris Indonesian name is Bima/ Arya werkudara but he is a character of the Vedic Indian Mahabharata epic, the original of which is in Sanskrit. If any of you are familiar with the original Indian version I would like to know his Indian name i.e. what name is he known by in India?
In this depiction he is seen forging a keris under guidance from an elephant headed god who could be ganesha or Indera.
In the Javanese story Bima receives knowledge on mount reksa muka when a small god climbs in his left ear and instructs him. In this depiction I feel that the small being in the elephant gods hand is a representative of that god. He acts as a messenger for the elephant god.
If we remember that Bima is actually Indian then essentially what we have here depicted in rock is an Indian man constructing a keris under the guidance of an Vedic Indian elephant god. What is the depiction telling us, Bima is Indian, Mount reksa muka is in India and the keris origins are in ?

Sorry, you are stretching points of logic and making all kinds of assumptions to try to prove you idea that the keris as a weapon originated in India. Certainly there were Hindu influences in early Jawa that entered through the court, and Jawa adopted Hindu as it's religion (keeping hold of many of it more pre-Hindu animistic beliefs as well) So yes, you will see statues and reliefs that may or may not retell classic Vedic stories, but these retellings will undoubtedly have a very strong local bend. Why do you assume that it is Bima forging the keris? The elephant is facing away from him, so why do you assume he is guiding the smith? Whatever creature is in the elephants hand seems a bit large to climb in anyones ear and is, once again, with the elephant, not the smith, facing in the opposite direction. So A)The depiction is not telling us the smith is Bima. The dress they wear is not Indian, but Javanese. B)Nor is it telling us this is Mount Reksa Muka ....and C) It certainly isn't telling us that the origins of the keris are in India. There is NO evidence anywhere found to date that would support this theory. NOWHERE, India included, do we have any remnant of an ancient weapon which has the very unique features that we associate with the keris. Why is that? There is NO reason at all why the Javanese where not capable of developing this weapon all by themselves. This reminds me of the theories that space aliens must have built the pyramids because we can't figure out how they did it. But there is a long history of ironworking in Jawa that even pre-dates any Hindu influence so we do know how they did it. So why do you think the keris needed to be originated somewhere else? Was there possiblly a Hindu influence is certain aspects of evolving design? Probably. The same can probably be said of the post-Mojopahit Islamic influence. But until someone digs up an 8th century keris blade on Mount Reksa Muka (or anywhere else outside of Jawa) i will continue to believe that the origins of the keris are firmly in Jawa.
Here is some further comentary recently posted by Alan Maisey on the EEWF about this very same relief:
The Candi Sukuh stele is possibly the most famous single piece of Javanese sculpture.
Some years ago --possibly ten or fifteen years--- it was transported to the USA for exhibition.
The figures shown in the Sukuh stele have been subjected to varying interpretations; the central figure has been intrepreted as a representation of Ganesha, but it could also be a sangkala ( a figural date able to be translated in accordance with the Javanese numerical system), if it is a sangkala it could be given as "gajah wiku anahut buntut :elephant monk hold animal=1378jav., 1456AD). The two other figures in the stele are noblemen, and could be representations of descendants of gods. The man on the left side is at an anvil, and on this anvil is a keris (this of course cannot be seen in the photo); the man on the right side is working bellows (ububan).
Over the years I have visited Candi Sukuh perhaps more than 100 times, as it is quite close to my residence when I am in Jawa.

[nechesh]

Just my curiosity Nesche, when you are talking about your experience holding your keris, you felt the energy from that keris "before" you know the history of that keris or "after"?


Actually i know very little about the history of my keris from any present source. Some keris have stronger energy than others. Some seem dead, with none at all. This is all based on my personal contact with the keris. It must be nice to recieve a keris as you have in the context of pusaka and to get a bit of the family history along with the keris. :) Consider yourself fortunate. As a Westerner trying to study and understand these things can be quite difficult at times. I am fortunate to be already somewhat predisposed to a Magickal way of thinking which most Westerners are not. It has been a great help in my process of understanding.
BTW, i am one of those people who make and believe in the power of talismans. :) Why, you might ask? Because they work, of course! ;)

[Narrue]

It is a symbol of his family, his bloodline and carries with it the power and wisdom of his ancestors. I don't think you need to be Indonesian to understand this. Nor do you need to believe in the mysticism of the keris culture to respect it.[/B]

Personally I think the knowledge of my ancestors is in me and perhaps the land they came from.
I still can’t see how all the knowledge of your ancestors can be in a blade. I do believe that it may contain "power" set up by your ancestors which still may be retained by the blade but I don’t agree that there are spirits in the blade but that is just MY understanding and im not trying to sell that to you.



Why do you assume that it is Bima forging the keris? The elephant is facing away from him, so why do you assume he is guiding the smith? Whatever creature is in the elephants hand seems a bit large to climb in anyones ear and is, once again, with the elephant, not the smith, facing in the opposite direction. So A)The depiction is not telling us the smith is Bima. The dress they wear is not Indian, but Javanese. B)Nor is it telling us this is Mount Reksa Muka ....and C) It certainly isn't telling us that the origins of the keris are in India. [/B]

I have read descriptions which identify the figure as Bima and if you know the stories of Bima they match the depiction. He was an Empu and in the stories he hammered keris out with his fist as in the depiction. Also Bima is usually depicted with a long thumb nail as in this depiction so personally I agree with those descriptions I have read. The two men either side of the elephant are actually the same person depicted at different stages of making the blade but then again that is MY belief and you don’t need to swallow it if you don’t like the taste of the theory.

http://www.nikhef.nl/~tonvr/keris/keris1/keris.html

[nechesh]

Narrue, i am not really arguing that this stele doesn't depict Bima. I am just pointing out that it is still an assumption. No one really knows. Anyway, i would like to point out that Bima is a part of Javanese mythology. He is one of the 5 brothers. Why would he be Indian?
The website you link to is a very good one. i will point out that this site makes no positive IDs either and is clearly says that the figure on the left is either an assistant, Bima's wife or possibly Bima himself. Yet you translate this to read "The two men either side of the elephant are actually the same person depicted at different stages of making the blade..." Well ACTUALLY nothing. This same description also IDs the creature in Ganesha's hands as a dog who helps him overcome difficulties. Yet for you this is the small god who whispers in Bima's ear. hhhmmmm Also, while this may indeed be Bima he is not beating out keris with his fists in this depiction, but obviously using tools. Once again, none of this points to an Indian origin for the keris. Nor is their any indication that Reksamuka is in India.
Frankly, while i am glad that the knowledge of YOUR ancestors is within YOU, this isn't about YOU. This is about the cultures of Indonesia and what they do and believe. You don't need to believe the customs to respect them. But you do need to understand them and the culture to properly understand the keris or Silat....if that is your aim.

[Narrue]

What I say wont change the world and tomorrow things will be the same as today so don’t worry too much about my opinion or get upset by it, just one man amongst millions, just a grain of sand :D


About Bima being Indian, I thought I already said that he was a character in the Mahabharata epic which is Indian so does that not make him Indian?
Just wondering why this Indian man is making keris.

[nechesh]

Yes Narrue, the Mahabharata does indeed have it's origins in India and Bima is Bhima in the original Indian classic. But the Javanese have taken this classic and made it their own. They were not teaching the mythology of a far off land in their wayang theater presentions to their own people. To become heros within their own culture the characters would need to be presented as a part of that culture. So i don't think Bima would be considered an Indian by a Javanese audience. I could be wrong on this, of course. Perhaps Kiai could comment from a Javanese persective.

[Kiai Carita]

Yes Narrue, the Mahabharata does indeed have it's origins in India and Bima is Bhima in the original Indian classic. But the Javanese have taken this classic and made it their own. They were not teaching the mythology of a far off land in their wayang theater presentions to their own people. To become heros within their own culture the characters would need to be presented as a part of that culture. So i don't think Bima would be considered an Indian by a Javanese audience. I could be wrong on this, of course. Perhaps Kiai could comment from a Javanese persective.

peace to all,

It would seem that at the end of the Majapahit era, around the time when Islam began to take foot in the north coast of Jawa, some power came to the slopes of Mount Lawu (my childhood mountain) and built several structurs of stone as places of worship and ritual. Candi Sukuh, with the famous relief of a besalen with an elephant and an Mpu and a Panjak, and Candi Cetha, with the huge phalus and vagina. It appears that in Majapahit there was a strong Bima sect, for at that time Bima Suci, a story about Bima entering a tiny God's ear and finding within the whole universe (lelakon Bima Suci) was scrached on to lontar. This story does not appear in any Indian texts.

Warm salaams to all,

PS I think the elephant is a candrasengkala rather than Ganesha, Ganesha has proper atributes that are normally depicted. It is an elephant, not a God elephant.