Let's talk Bunkai

[Knight_Errant]

Bunkai=applications for kata sequences.
Let's get all the crazy bunkai we have been mulling over for ages out here in the open so that the more experienced MAPpers can pull our legs and tell us where we're going wrong, and we can all share and enjoy and be happy with our little exchange.

Purely to start the ball rolling, and possibly to prove there's nothing wrong with posting a ridiculous bunkai in order to get corrected, how about the move in pinan nidan, after you've just finished the third upper block and you swing around and lower block then punch. Can I read this as an upper block, then grab the arm and throw opponent over hip followed by punch?

[Saz]

Good thread KE (I never thought I'd say that!! :o) I like discussing Bunkai.

What style is that Pinan Ni from? Ours is a little different, what your describing sounds more like our Pinan Ichi (Shodan)

[Knight_Errant]

Wado ryu. Since pinan ni is easier to learn than pinan sho, most schools do switch 'em around. Some folks go all the way and change the names. I'm all for that, meself :)

[Saz]

In our school, we learn the kata's for higher grades early, but we learnt them in order... Pinan Ich is far easier than Pinan Ni in our style. Our kata's are here http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4858 if you want a look

[Mike Flanagan]

Originally posted by Knight_errant
Can I read this as an upper block, then grab the arm and throw opponent over hip followed by punch?

I don't know, can you? The real test is - can you make it work? Can you do this with your training partner throwing a realistic punch from a realistic distance and then not waiting around absolutely still while you finish the rest of your technique. Once you've thrown him is it appropriate to step through and punch? Will there be a target for your punch, assuming you've thrown him to the floor? Would an alternative technique be more effective, realiable or easier to perform?

Mike

[YODA]

Applications for techniques should come as a result of sparring against a resisting opponent - then if you want to make a Kata out of what you've found works for you - fine.

Of course - everyone's Kata would be different - and that doesn't SELL. That doesn't keep people coming back for more Kata and more gradings and more belts - .... without ever having to do anything actually MARTIAL.

[Knight_Errant]

Thanks for the KKK kata, K girl. Yeah, yoda. Couldn't agree more, but if the sequences are in the kata, which we have conveniently learnt, then that is pretty groovy, yeah?

[YODA]

KE - Not only have you missed the boat - you've showed up at the wrong harbour :D

[Knight_Errant]

http://smilies.crowd9.com/contrib/edoom/sad2.gif

[KenpoDavid]

you learn the abstract principles of your style by practicing kata and bunkai, then apply those principles in sparring...

[Saz]

I don't apply anything I learnt in kata in sparring, I don't believe kata has anything to do with sparring whatsoever. From what I can see so far, it helps with fluidity of techniques, concentration, stance and discipline. But not sparring.

Personally, I do kata for the enjoyment of doing kata.

Kata would be different - and that doesn't SELL. That doesn't keep people coming back for more Kata and more gradings and more belts - .... without ever having to do anything actually MARTIAL.

I don't think Kata does sell. If people are coming back for more gradings and belts, thats often just greed and belt hunger, not a desire to learn.

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by Kyokushin_girl

I don't think Kata does sell. If people are coming back for more gradings and belts, thats often just greed and belt hunger, not a desire to learn.

Thats enough, the goal is to keep them coming and paying.

It puts a goal on the end, a competition point. Many people will stay till black or untill they get all the kata because until then it is incomplete. I have had a few people tell me that they had "finished" TKD or Karate, because they got the black and knew the patterns. Then left, afterall they where "done".

Take away the patterns and the belts, now where is the "completion" point?

[Kwan Jang]

-Funny. From my experience traditional kata has always been a challenge against retention. The only reason we've kept it in the training is because of it's value, not because it is popular with the students for them to do or will keep them coming back for more.

[KenpoDavid]

Originally posted by Kyokushin_girl
I don't apply anything I learnt in kata in sparring...it helps with fluidity of techniques, concentration, stance and discipline. But not sparring.


I find that fluidity of techniques, concentration, stance and discipline are important when sparring, but that's just me...

[Chris J.]

Hello,
Interesting mix of a thread here. Initially it started out stating what Bunkai equals. Here is the true definition of the word: To break apart. If you simply take one move at a time, or a few movements, and practice them without the rest of the kata then this is Bunkai.

Bunkai Oyo would be to practice set movements and determine their meaning in terms of a real fight; at least in most poeple's experience. This implies that the instruction is not complete. If you train with a very experienced person then the learning is different. First you learn a movement and its various possible applications. Later you practice a kata, and the movement jumps out at you. From that starting point the meaning of the kata begins to emerge.

Then there is Bunkai Suru, the extrapolation of similar but modified movements off a movement in a kata. This is a more creative and flexible mode of training.

Also, lets face it. Sparring and real fighting never have been anything but distantly similar. Sparring has a place in the scheme of things, but it is best done using Bogu gear and real contact. Even this is not a complete preparation for the realities of direct conflict.

We should learn the movements that are hidden in the kata first, if possible, then find them on our own and learn more from their relationships within the kata. If your instructor can not help then he/she is still learning, which is fine too. If the information is unavailable then of course you can try to figure things out for yourself from just the kata; but this is all but impossible to do. Some things are readily evident while others are not easy to see; these must be taught first and later realized in the kata. So a partial picture is displayed, incomplete. A technique that only works SO, in this situation, not an underlying reality that applies to many situations and is more useful. The good oil, as they say.

-Chris J.

[Goju]

can anyone list the possible bunkai for Any kata why the mawashiuke block in it. What could you be doing with that block??

I thought of some

clearing a punch with descending hand striking with inverted knife hand(nukete) to eyes or neck with hand coming over the bent arm and then knocking hand/s off of your lapel and then double teisho.

A good one is instead of the knife hand your middle and index fingers are going into opponents eye socket when you do the circular block part you are scooping the eye out and hitting the enemy with two palm strikes.


Oh ya.... Does anyone here think that a haraiotoshi can be breaking an arm. the hand that is going into chamber is pulling a grabbed enemy's arm in towards you and the arm that is swing downward is hitting the elbow on its backside and breaking it.

[Mike Flanagan]

Mawashi-uke: Assuming we're talking about the same technique I think that this block is central to what karate is all about. Imagine a straight right to the head. The left hand intercepts it moving it inwards slightly. At the same time the right hand is passing to the left, underneath the left hand. It now comes up and intercepts the punching arm deflecting it further inwards. It is important that muchimi (sticking) is emphasised here - the left arm is still in contact with the punching arm at least until the right arm makes contact.

From here you can either roll the right hand palm up to push the punch yet further across. A good counter at this point would be to strike with a double palm-heel strike as is seen in some versions of Sanchin.

Alternatively roll the right hand palm down and grab the wrist. Strike with the other hand.

I'm not sure what haraiotoshi is. Is it different to gedan barai? Can you describe it?

Mike

[Goju]

Its similar to gedan barai... have you seen kata gekisai ichi/ni or dai,,, sometimes called kata fukyu ichi or ni

its the third move in those katas

[Mike Flanagan]

Ah yes, looking in a book it seems to just be what I think of as gedan barai, just that you're stepping backwards into a straddle stance.

I don't think I'd necessarily be looking to break the arm, but it can certainly be used to apply an arm-bar, applying pressure on the triceps tendon. This can be very effective. I know some individuals whose arm would probably break if I did this strongly, but I also know individuals who'se arms would not break no matter how much I tried.

Mike

[Goju]

thats true...

[fullcircle]

KE
The move in question is definitely a throw,..tai o toshi specifically,or body drop otherwise,...perhaps even a head throw,..grasp the hair or topknot on the back of the head,..as well as the jaw at the front ,..turn and spin,...cest tout!!!
-check out " body drop "and you will see it in he Kata ,...its a non weight bearing thow,..a bit of a trip and easy to learn.,...dont forget those previous three rising blocks are really attacks to the jaw and armpit,..totally devastating,..lean your body forward and put your weight into it as you step in,...always respect Karate,..what you are learning is absolute ,final & fatal.
Oost.

[Goju]

Im lost.. what are you talking about man???? what move, doesnt sound like haraiotoshi or mawashiuke

[Knight_Errant]

Tai Otoshi, man. It's a judo technique. Body drop.

[Goju]

who asked about that?

[Mike Flanagan]

The tai-otoshi was, I believe, suggested as an explanation for the very first movements mentioned, ie. from Heian Shodan - the turn with downward block that follows the 3 rising blocks.

Mike

[Goju]

oh... I see, I was just reading this thing on a site and it showed the 15 throws and joint locks of Goju-ryu karate and the throws are just bunkai applications of the basic hand and foot techniques. We don't usually train throwing and locks all that often.

[Mike Flanagan]

Originally posted by d_rza
oh... I see, I was just reading this thing on a site and it showed the 15 throws and joint locks of Goju-ryu karate and the throws are just bunkai applications of the basic hand and foot techniques. We don't usually train throwing and locks all that often.

Hi D_rza

What was the address of that site?

Mike

[kerling]

Out of context I want to ad something that a sensei told me over the weekend.

If you do kata and don't have any idea about its bunkai your rithme will be off. If you do bunkai and feel a rithm in it you can apply that rithm to your kata.

When you stand on the floor and do kata it's you and your feeling for the techniques that is for display not the kata, it's you.

So you do this movement like this, I do it like that. For example you do kokuchu dachi shotu uke and think it's a block and I think it's a strike to the throat. It does not matter but we must show that the technique has a meaning.

Having said that. Your train your steps and you get a certain feel to your kata. Then to get more feeling (deeper) you should do bunkai.

Regards Kerling

[Goju]

hey mike here is the site You have to scroll down a while before it shows the throws

http://www.atlantafightclub.com/goju_ryu_karate.htm

here is a pic of one being executed it is from another site

[Mike Flanagan]

Originally posted by d_rza
hey mike here is the site You have to scroll down a while before it shows the throws

http://www.atlantafightclub.com/goju_ryu_karate.htm

here is a pic of one being executed it is from another site

Thanks for that. Interestingly these throws shown seem to have been lifted (pictures, names and all) from a Judo or Jujitsu syllabus. Which is not a bad thing in itself but I have to wonder about their authenticity as the 'throws of goju-ryu'. There are other takedowns which more closely resemble the movements and principles used in karate.

Mike

[KTJWMark]

I can't help but to agree that the study of bunkai does seem to be a bit of an abstraction from what happens in "tournament style" sparring matches. Bunkai seems reserved for those who care to explore things further, "tinker", or try things on their own. But in teaching karate kata there seems to be nothing better than demonstrating bunkai in order to make the moves better understood by the students. Hopefully that transfers into better performance of the kata, and then to successful demonstration of that kata in competition (if competition is something that you are really into, that is...)

Mark Groenewold

[madfrank]

Kata is everything


MF

[Smee]

Hi guys - I'm a Hung Gar kung fu student so cannot comment on specific kata bunkai. However, I'm very interested in the equivalent as applied to chinese kung fu forms.

I believe that the forms/kata are the core of the system and that the real messages embodied in these forms have been so diluted over time that they are in danger of being lost. The bunkai that is shown for some moves are really quite ridiculous if you stand and think about them for a few minutes and this has done a hell of a lot of damage to the reputation of traditional arts over the years. The real arts as they were originally intended cover all ranges of standing fighting and what seems like a block/punch may very well have originated as a grappling move/takedown/etc etc.

As karate/kung fu are now commonly perceived as striking arts we now tend to think of bunkai as striking attack/defence type applications. I don't believe that's how they were intended. Bottom line is though - if its a realistic scenario and you can make the technique work against a resisting opponent. Then that's a fair enough bunkai. It's most probably only one of many that could be adapted from the same movements and we shouldn't all get fixated on getting the "correct" bunkai. You will only program your mind into being rigid.

Anyway, enough of my comments. Someone who has far more to say and I would highly recommend is www.ianabernethy.com. His books "Bunkai Jutsu" and "Karate's Grappling Methods" are excellent. There are some good articles on his site that are extracted from these.

Cheers
Paul

[Ryushikan]

Bunkai=applications for kata sequences.



Bunkai= to break apart, disect, seperate

[Mike O'Leary]

Hello,
Interesting mix of a thread here. Initially it started out stating what Bunkai equals. Here is the true definition of the word: To break apart. If you simply take one move at a time, or a few movements, and practice them without the rest of the kata then this is Bunkai.

Bunkai Oyo would be to practice set movements and determine their meaning in terms of a real fight; at least in most poeple's experience. This implies that the instruction is not complete. If you train with a very experienced person then the learning is different. First you learn a movement and its various possible applications. Later you practice a kata, and the movement jumps out at you. From that starting point the meaning of the kata begins to emerge.

Then there is Bunkai Suru, the extrapolation of similar but modified movements off a movement in a kata. This is a more creative and flexible mode of training.

Also, lets face it. Sparring and real fighting never have been anything but distantly similar. Sparring has a place in the scheme of things, but it is best done using Bogu gear and real contact. Even this is not a complete preparation for the realities of direct conflict.

We should learn the movements that are hidden in the kata first, if possible, then find them on our own and learn more from their relationships within the kata. If your instructor can not help then he/she is still learning, which is fine too. If the information is unavailable then of course you can try to figure things out for yourself from just the kata; but this is all but impossible to do. Some things are readily evident while others are not easy to see; these must be taught first and later realized in the kata. So a partial picture is displayed, incomplete. A technique that only works SO, in this situation, not an underlying reality that applies to many situations and is more useful. The good oil, as they say.

-Chris J.


Chris: the previous comments are made by non traditional martial artists. Oh they may say the studied bunkai and kata but my guess is they dont see that Karate (what this particular section is about) was not designed for sport sparring, that working bunkai with a partner is what many styles have done for centuries. Judo, Ju Jitsu, Aikido and many others are styles that work partner drills. Many of North American karate "Masters" focus on kata as tournament and sparring as tournament activities. If you are fortunate enough to have found an instructor (which it appears by your definition you have) you will be taught combat style self defence. That is what kata are about, I never blame a student for not knowing, but somewhere in their lineage you will find a faulty teacher who didnt understand. You also have to understand that those that jump into a karate forum to simply critisize... well it means they cant hold a positive conversation in there own forum...if in fact they have one.

Mike O'leary

[Mike O'Leary]

Applications for techniques should come as a result of sparring against a resisting opponent - then if you want to make a Kata out of what you've found works for you - fine.

Of course - everyone's Kata would be different - and that doesn't SELL. That doesn't keep people coming back for more Kata and more gradings and more belts - .... without ever having to do anything actually MARTIAL.



Yoda... you just described working bunkai...... Kata gives you a sequence that works for a flowing memory of important facts. Most sylabus will over several kata work several versions of the same thing....ie: closed block, open hand block, inside block,,, all designed to deal with a similar attack. What you use in real life is what works best for you, it doesnt change a kata, it states that you learned all of the kata in order for you to pass on to others (who may favour alternate techniques than you)
Drilling with a partner at an ever increasing speed and strength is how you translate bunkai to self defense. There is no doubt that doing karate for sport will give you a degree of expertice in battle, learning bunkai over a long period of time will carry you through those situations that would be impossible otherwise. Normally bunkai will teach evasions, mai, and inclose techniques, where most of it really happens outside of the ring.


Mike O'leary;

[kerling]

Normally bunkai will teach evasions, mai, and inclose techniques, where most of it really happens outside of the ring.


Damnit Mike NO good answers here!!!

I have never seen kata meant for 1 on 1.
Nor have I seen kata that evades the corner of the ring or uses the rope.

But then again I'm not all knowing...

[Mike O'Leary]

Damnit Mike NO good answers here!!!

I have never seen kata meant for 1 on 1.
Nor have I seen kata that evades the corner of the ring or uses the rope.

But then again I'm not all knowing...


HMMMMMM Not sure where your going with this statement. All kata technique is meant for 1 on 1 or more.

As to evading the corner of the ring or using the rope..... not what kata is about......

Mike O'leary

[kerling]

HMMMMMM Not sure where your going with this statement. All kata technique is meant for 1 on 1 or more.

As to evading the corner of the ring or using the rope..... not what kata is about......

Mike O'leary

Ok .. let's try again.

I thought you answer was a good one..

[Reiki]

Someone was asking asking earlier about what the application was for a mawashi?

This can be applied to a rugby type tackle from the front where you basically use the attackers momentum and energy in an aikido type fashion to spin them over and away from you..

ie attacker charges at you from the front getting ready to tackle you, step backwards with left foot into a deepish & balanced shiko dachi as you move your right hand up and under his left arm propelling it upwards and over, and your left arm forces his right arm down and spins him over and away behind you. As you are nicely balanced and have a fairly low centre of gravity you can either hit him, kick him or break his arm BJJ style and move off quickly.

Hitting the deck like this can be a very painful experience for an attacker.

[Reiki]

Forgot to add that sanchin [and Naihanchin!] kata are full of some of the nicest & most vicious yatsukos.

I always try to envisage what the attacks are when I'm doing my bo katas too. Helps in making the strikes much more powerful and in the right places.

had blonde moment,,,

[Mike O'Leary]

Ok .. let's try again.

I thought you answer was a good one..


My apologies sir, I seriously was simply having a blonde moment when I read your post. Often in type we miss subtle things, humor is one of them or subtle points. I am sure that being old and having students practice tomashi on this old bald noggen doesnt help, and the altzheimers would be bad except I never remember how bad my memory was yesterday. (now where did I put that other pair of glasses)

(An embarassed old mans way of saying ..... Thank you) Domo Aregato sempai. :confused:

:Angel:


Mike O'Leary

[shotokanwarrior]

Kata is everything

Oh nooooo, nooooo, nooooooooooo!!!!!!!! Another one bites the dust.

without ever having to do anything actually MARTIAL.

This last is true. There are some people who do karate just for the kata and who are utterly pathetic fighters. I have the same view of them as I would have of excessive fat cells in a human body. Useless baggage that we could all do much better without.

I don't think Kata does sell. If people are coming back for more gradings and belts, thats often just greed and belt hunger, not a desire to learn.

You're right it's definitely not a desire to learn. These people have found a 'comfort zone', that's all if you ask me.

clearing a punch with descending hand striking with inverted knife hand(nukete) to eyes or neck with hand coming over the bent arm and then knocking hand/s off of your lapel and then double teisho.

Hey, are you talking about Heian Nidan? I have thought of a similar explanation for the nukite...you seize the attacker's hand which is throwing a punch, pull him down so you can get at his head area and drive in the nukite inside of his sternomastoid muscle. (Hey, Mike Flanagan? I've decided to join your side of the nukite controversy)

[Mike Flanagan]

Hey, Mike Flanagan? I've decided to join your side of the nukite controversy

About time too. :-)