Bodybuilding for the Martial Artist

[mmafiter]

This article was written by my wife who is a certified personal trainer for a bodybuilding/strength and conditioning magazine called Ironmag. She has helped me many times in getting ready for competitions/fights and her knowledge and theories are sound. It's rather long but well worth it. I hope you enjoy it.:cool:


Bodybuilding for the Martial Artist

Written by: Leah Wynne

So, let me begin by saying that this article isn't just for the martial artist. I just happen to be a martial artist and thus picked this sport to write about. However, if you play any type of sport where speed and strength are important, or if you want to be as strong as you look, then this article is for you.

Weight Training

Development of fast twitch muscle fibers is essential to improving relative strength. These muscle fibers are recruited and primarily developed during relatively short and intense exercise, as opposed to the slow twitch muscle fibers, which are responsible for sustained endurance.

Martial artists that want quick, powerful kicks and punches should be lifting in a manner that develops the fast twitch muscle fibers. One way to target these muscle fibers is through low volume, high intensity lifting. That is roughly 1-5 reps at 85-100% of 1RM. When training at such high intensity, you need ample rest between sets. Three to five minutes is recommended.

The number of sets that should be done is inversely related to the number of reps chosen. A lower rep range will require more sets than a higher rep range. Five to 12 sets are recommended, depending on the number of reps you choose.

The speed of contraction used depends on where you are in your training cycle, in other words, how close you are to your fight. Slow speed training with high intensities eliminates momentum thus increasing the tension imposed on the muscle, leading to faster development of strength. However, if too much time is spent with slow speed training, the rate of force development (the ability to apply muscular force quickly) is diminished. Therefore it is best to vary the speed of contractions, beginning with slow speed training to develop a strength base and progressing to explosive training

This type of low volume weight training brings about an increase in maximal strength with a minimal increase in muscle mass. This is great for the competitive martial artist that must qualify for specific weight classes. Delayed onset muscles soreness is also reduced with this type of training, which means your weight training should not interfere too much with your martial arts practice.

The term speed strength refers to explosive power. When you throw a roundhouse kick or a cross punch, you want it to be powerful enough to hurt and fast enough that it won't be caught. There are two components of speed strength: Starting strength and Explosive strength. Starting strength is the ability to instantly activate as many muscle fibers as possible. Explosive strength is the ability to keep the muscles activated for a measurable duration. When working on speed training, the emphasis should be on acceleration of the weight. An explosive concentric should be used with a total set duration of 20 seconds or less.

As a competition nears, training will become increasingly specific. Martial artists should reduce maximal weight training and increase power training and sport specific interval training.

Of course, there is a time for high volume, low intensity weight training in martial arts. Moving up to the next weight class will require an increase in bodyweight through gains in muscle mass. Also, if a martial artist (or anybody for that matter) is relatively new to weight training, lifting with a lower intensity will establish a strength base and ensure proper form is learned. Ideally, weight training would be periodized according to fight dates and specific strength goals.

Obviously, the martial artist will need to have a well-developed cardiovascular system. Most competitions are of a relatively short duration, when compared to some sports. A tournament fight may consist of two 3-6 minute rounds or a No Holds Barred fight may consist of one 10 minute round. Even non-competitive martial artists will only spar or grapple for a short duration during practice. Therefore, your cardio training should reflect your sport. There's no need to go on long slow runs if your fight will last 10 minutes.

Interval training is one of the best methods for martial artists to prepare for competition. Try to keep your training as specific to your competition as possible. If your fight consists of two 5-minute rounds, then you should work up to 5-minute intervals. Again, trying to be specific, if it is a boxing match, hit the heavy bag; if it is a No-Holds-Barred fight, then practice full-contact striking & grappling for 5-minute intervals.

Plyometric training, also called fast eccentric training, is invaluable for the martial artist. If you haven't incorporated it into your training program yet, you're missing a valuable tool for increasing speed and strength. Plyometrics take full advantage of the power of eccentric contractions, the stretch-shortening cycle and the elasticity of muscle to produce the highest force and power capacity in skeletal muscle.

Complete instruction on Plyometrics is beyond the scope of this article; however, there are general points that should be brought up. Always keep ground contact to a minimum. That is, as soon as your feet land you should be taking off again. In the case of upper body medicine ball training, keep contact w/ the MB to a minimum. For example, in a MB chest pass, as soon as you catch the ball, you toss it back to your partner. The longer you wait before contracting again, the more stored elastic energy will dissipate, thus decreasing eccentric efficiency.

When performing lower body Plyometrics, stay on the balls of your feet. When landing, the best optimal foot position is w/ a dorsiflexed foot and 2/3 foot contact with an emphasis of weight on the front of the foot. Rolling the foot or moving the ankle joint slows the response. It is important to consider the landing surface, including the type of shoe worn. Too much cushioning will defeat the purpose of reactive landings. Grass is often the optimal surface for training. Thin-soled shoes or even bare feet may provide the safest option in terms of minimizing excessive heel contact and pronation.

Nutrition

A martial artist training for a competition does not need to eat like a bodybuilder. Protein is still important, but complex carbohydrates are even more so. Often the training that goes into a fight is upwards of 25 hours per week. Without enough carbohydrates in the diet, the martial artist would never make it through such a high volume of training. A diet consisting of 50% carbs, 30% protein and 20% fat is ideal to begin with. Be sure to monitor your energy levels and adjust your split accordingly. When training so intensely it's easy to lose track of your calorie intake and not eat enough. It too should be monitored closely. If you begin losing weight unintentionally, increase your calories slowly (200-300) until you're able to maintain your weight.

Keep track of your weight throughout your training. If you are at the top of your weight class, you'll need to watch that you don't spill over into the next weight class. If you are at the bottom of your weight class, you'll likely want to gain muscle mass/bodyweight to move up a class or drop weight to go in at the top of the next class down. How much time you have and where you fit in your class will determine which way to go.

Whatever your goals in martial arts and bodybuilding, I suggest you maintain a training and nutritional log. It is the easiest way to track progress and overcome plateaus. Without a log, you can't remember where you've been, and if you don't know where you've been you can't possibly know where you're going.

[Cooler]

Hi mmafiter

Nice article :) If it is allright with yourself I will take this article and place it in health and fitness section.

Cooler

[mmafiter]

Sure, no problem.

[Freeform]

Great article, mmafiter, great to have you here, hope you contribute more stuff like this.

Thanx

[GICKER]

18 63 Willam Banting demonstrates that Dr.Harvey,s program minimizing carbohydrates achieves wight loss
19 55 insulin found to convert carbs to bodyfat
1984 NO SATURATED FAT FOUND IN ARTERIAL BLOCKAGE!
RESULTS KEPT HIDDEN lancet 1984:344:1195-96.
180 carbo producers start hevila promoting processed carbs(cereals,breads,pastas.)
Molecular Biology of the cell,page {658} Quantitatively, fat is a far more important storage form than glycogen, in part because its oxidation releases more than six times as much energy as the oxidantion of an equal mass of glycogen in its hydrated form.

[mikelw]

First off, i do not mean any disrespect. This article was packed with good information.

Why does your wife assume that all martial artists train for sport. Many martial artists (including myself) do not compete, and never intend to. I dont' know, it just kind of bothered me that she assumed that all martial artists trained for their "fight date".

[Raiden]

Originally posted by mikelw
First off, i do not mean any disrespect. This article was packed with good information.

Why does your wife assume that all martial artists train for sport. Many martial artists (including myself) do not compete, and never intend to. I dont' know, it just kind of bothered me that she assumed that all martial artists trained for their "fight date".

She didn't neccessarily assume, but more or less geared the article towards the competition side of it. The reason is, she wrote it for a magazine. This magazine is obviously geared towards individuals who compete so it makes sense that the article geared towards MA's who compete.

[erikido]

Gicker. .
I did not understand what you were saying in your post at all. .COuld you restate it. IN COMPLETE SENTENCES please:D

[47Ronin]

That is a good artical MMAfiter, thanks for the info.

erikido, glicker is banned, dont expect anything back from him.

[AgentX]

MA are not sports... there are a way to perfection...

[Yukimushu]

I hope you don't mind but ive taken the liberty to turn this article into alittle website, google bot should visit it and put it into the google directory.

Body building for martial artist (http://snake.delvar.com/body_building.htm)

If you don't agree then please messege me and ill remove it.

[Skinneh]

So I have a quick question :D

Since im VERY small... I have been doing mass weightlifting. I plan on doing it for another .. 2 months or so... and then switch to the above method. Is that a Bad thing ?

P.S Awsome article :D

[OnexDragon]

Are there any exercises I can do out of the gym that help develop fast twitch muscle fibers. Most of the time I don't have access to the gym or weights so I'm interested in what I can do at home.

[Qis]

Are there any exercises I can do out of the gym that help develop fast twitch muscle fibers. Most of the time I don't have access to the gym or weights so I'm interested in what I can do at home.

[I know nothing] i think polymetrics are the way to go for that. claping your hands in pushupsand jumping in squats etc. + sprints H.I.I.T training [/I know nothing]

check out the heealth+fitness forum for more/correct info.

-Qis

[enlwlffo]

Are there any exercises I can do out of the gym that help develop fast twitch muscle fibers. Most of the time I don't have access to the gym or weights so I'm interested in what I can do at home.

yep
pushups with claps,
frog-hops
sprints
basically anything that makes you use explosive power

[OnexDragon]

Thanks for the help. One more question, Will doing both eplosive power exercises and endurance workouts be counter productive? I currently do mostly endurance training and would like to add some sets of the pushups w/claps and frog jumps on the weekend.

[aml01_ph]

I prefer doing strength and endurance exercies on separate days. Also goes for the plyometrics.

[jroe52]

hmm maybe sprint/jog or sprint/walk excersizes would be a good way to train explosive power? i know its agood way to stop muscle soreness from what i hear (like shin splints).

hmm i wish she gave some example excersizes. i'm kinda confused, i want to increase speed... do i do 5 reps of like 1/4 my max? or do i do 1 rep of my max? in her article i take it as doing 1 rep of my max. where a mass builder would do like 3-4sets of 80% of the max... from what i remeber in highschool lifting.

anybody ?

[aml01_ph]

hmm maybe sprint/jog or sprint/walk excersizes would be a good way to train explosive power? i know its agood way to stop muscle soreness from what i hear (like shin splints).

hmm i wish she gave some example excersizes. i'm kinda confused, i want to increase speed... do i do 5 reps of like 1/4 my max? or do i do 1 rep of my max? in her article i take it as doing 1 rep of my max. where a mass builder would do like 3-4sets of 80% of the max... from what i remeber in highschool lifting.

anybody ?

Speed in what? Please clarify your question.

[Charlie85]

i read the article and in one part it says "Slow speed training with high intensities" wot the diffrence between those to words?
can u give one exaple?isnt the word intensty means same think wit speed on the workouts?
thx

[valetudo74]

This article was written by my wife who is a certified personal trainer for a bodybuilding/strength and conditioning magazine called Ironmag. She has helped me many times in getting ready for competitions/fights and her knowledge and theories are sound. It's rather long but well worth it. I hope you enjoy it.:cool:


Bodybuilding for the Martial Artist

Written by: Leah Wynne

So, let me begin by saying that this article isn't just for the martial artist. I just happen to be a martial artist and thus picked this sport to write about. However, if you play any type of sport where speed and strength are important, or if you want to be as strong as you look, then this article is for you.

Weight Training

Development of fast twitch muscle fibers is essential to improving relative strength. These muscle fibers are recruited and primarily developed during relatively short and intense exercise, as opposed to the slow twitch muscle fibers, which are responsible for sustained endurance.

Martial artists that want quick, powerful kicks and punches should be lifting in a manner that develops the fast twitch muscle fibers. One way to target these muscle fibers is through low volume, high intensity lifting. That is roughly 1-5 reps at 85-100% of 1RM. When training at such high intensity, you need ample rest between sets. Three to five minutes is recommended.

The number of sets that should be done is inversely related to the number of reps chosen. A lower rep range will require more sets than a higher rep range. Five to 12 sets are recommended, depending on the number of reps you choose.

The speed of contraction used depends on where you are in your training cycle, in other words, how close you are to your fight. Slow speed training with high intensities eliminates momentum thus increasing the tension imposed on the muscle, leading to faster development of strength. However, if too much time is spent with slow speed training, the rate of force development (the ability to apply muscular force quickly) is diminished. Therefore it is best to vary the speed of contractions, beginning with slow speed training to develop a strength base and progressing to explosive training

This type of low volume weight training brings about an increase in maximal strength with a minimal increase in muscle mass. This is great for the competitive martial artist that must qualify for specific weight classes. Delayed onset muscles soreness is also reduced with this type of training, which means your weight training should not interfere too much with your martial arts practice.

The term speed strength refers to explosive power. When you throw a roundhouse kick or a cross punch, you want it to be powerful enough to hurt and fast enough that it won't be caught. There are two components of speed strength: Starting strength and Explosive strength. Starting strength is the ability to instantly activate as many muscle fibers as possible. Explosive strength is the ability to keep the muscles activated for a measurable duration. When working on speed training, the emphasis should be on acceleration of the weight. An explosive concentric should be used with a total set duration of 20 seconds or less.

As a competition nears, training will become increasingly specific. Martial artists should reduce maximal weight training and increase power training and sport specific interval training.

Of course, there is a time for high volume, low intensity weight training in martial arts. Moving up to the next weight class will require an increase in bodyweight through gains in muscle mass. Also, if a martial artist (or anybody for that matter) is relatively new to weight training, lifting with a lower intensity will establish a strength base and ensure proper form is learned. Ideally, weight training would be periodized according to fight dates and specific strength goals.

Obviously, the martial artist will need to have a well-developed cardiovascular system. Most competitions are of a relatively short duration, when compared to some sports. A tournament fight may consist of two 3-6 minute rounds or a No Holds Barred fight may consist of one 10 minute round. Even non-competitive martial artists will only spar or grapple for a short duration during practice. Therefore, your cardio training should reflect your sport. There's no need to go on long slow runs if your fight will last 10 minutes.

Interval training is one of the best methods for martial artists to prepare for competition. Try to keep your training as specific to your competition as possible. If your fight consists of two 5-minute rounds, then you should work up to 5-minute intervals. Again, trying to be specific, if it is a boxing match, hit the heavy bag; if it is a No-Holds-Barred fight, then practice full-contact striking & grappling for 5-minute intervals.

Plyometric training, also called fast eccentric training, is invaluable for the martial artist. If you haven't incorporated it into your training program yet, you're missing a valuable tool for increasing speed and strength. Plyometrics take full advantage of the power of eccentric contractions, the stretch-shortening cycle and the elasticity of muscle to produce the highest force and power capacity in skeletal muscle.

Complete instruction on Plyometrics is beyond the scope of this article; however, there are general points that should be brought up. Always keep ground contact to a minimum. That is, as soon as your feet land you should be taking off again. In the case of upper body medicine ball training, keep contact w/ the MB to a minimum. For example, in a MB chest pass, as soon as you catch the ball, you toss it back to your partner. The longer you wait before contracting again, the more stored elastic energy will dissipate, thus decreasing eccentric efficiency.

When performing lower body Plyometrics, stay on the balls of your feet. When landing, the best optimal foot position is w/ a dorsiflexed foot and 2/3 foot contact with an emphasis of weight on the front of the foot. Rolling the foot or moving the ankle joint slows the response. It is important to consider the landing surface, including the type of shoe worn. Too much cushioning will defeat the purpose of reactive landings. Grass is often the optimal surface for training. Thin-soled shoes or even bare feet may provide the safest option in terms of minimizing excessive heel contact and pronation.

Nutrition

A martial artist training for a competition does not need to eat like a bodybuilder. Protein is still important, but complex carbohydrates are even more so. Often the training that goes into a fight is upwards of 25 hours per week. Without enough carbohydrates in the diet, the martial artist would never make it through such a high volume of training. A diet consisting of 50% carbs, 30% protein and 20% fat is ideal to begin with. Be sure to monitor your energy levels and adjust your split accordingly. When training so intensely it's easy to lose track of your calorie intake and not eat enough. It too should be monitored closely. If you begin losing weight unintentionally, increase your calories slowly (200-300) until you're able to maintain your weight.

Keep track of your weight throughout your training. If you are at the top of your weight class, you'll need to watch that you don't spill over into the next weight class. If you are at the bottom of your weight class, you'll likely want to gain muscle mass/bodyweight to move up a class or drop weight to go in at the top of the next class down. How much time you have and where you fit in your class will determine which way to go.

Whatever your goals in martial arts and bodybuilding, I suggest you maintain a training and nutritional log. It is the easiest way to track progress and overcome plateaus. Without a log, you can't remember where you've been, and if you don't know where you've been you can't possibly know where you're going.


Nice article. Ask your wife if she would recommend a "5x5" workout for martial artists, whether competing or not. The workout consists of 5 reps within 5 sets. It's an old school workout that I'm actually using right now, and I have seen major gains.

[valetudo74]

First off, i do not mean any disrespect. This article was packed with good information.

Why does your wife assume that all martial artists train for sport. Many martial artists (including myself) do not compete, and never intend to. I dont' know, it just kind of bothered me that she assumed that all martial artists trained for their "fight date".

This is how mmafiter's wife ends her article: "Whatever your goals in martial arts and bodybuilding, I suggest you maintain a training and nutritional log. It is the easiest way to track progress and overcome plateaus. Without a log, you can't remember where you've been, and if you don't know where you've been you can't possibly know where you're going."

You bring up a very good point, not everyone trains in MA's for competition. However, you should also consider the fact that you can use this information for your training in general; it doesn't just apply to those who are competively active in MA's.

[Sanitarium]

Great article, thanks.

[Mathew Phrozen]

Nice article! ;) Can you ask her to write an example of 1 year period plan (including exercises availible in fitness, sprints, cycles explanations and when is ideal to train in fitness, sprinting, MA). Thanx! :)

[whip]

Just as a warning to those who do lots of joint and nerve attack training, alot of weight training WITHOUT keeping very flexible will make you hard yes, but easily breakable. I have come across a lot of big guys who caught in a lock are so incredibly frail, there is soo much tension in the joints from huge muscles, they struggle, and snap crackle pop I have just seen too many injuries associated with MA and weight lifting :eek:

[Ad McG]

Nice article! ;) Can you ask her to write an example of 1 year period plan (including exercises availible in fitness, sprints, cycles explanations and when is ideal to train in fitness, sprinting, MA). Thanx! :)

haha, good luck on that one mate! Do you know how much effort it takes to put something like that together?!?

[Mathew Phrozen]

I'm quite new in fitness, so I don't have idea...

[Ad McG]

Best to have a good browse of these forums and find out what works for you and your routine!

[Nissani]

I've not heard anyone mention Matt Furey in this forum....


don't wanna sound like a commercial but uhh the guys got some great material....I've not touched weights in months and i've gotten stronger, a hell of a lot more flexible, and faster quicker...don't have any of those aches from lifting weights anymore...all the strength i've gained is what he calls "functional" it can actually be used....for example i can hold a back bridge with my nose to the floor with no hands for almost 12 minutes now....for someone who's 6,4 220-235lbs who would never have thought of doing a back bridge in their life doing that is an amazing feeling i'll tell you...i can do 100 dands, 240 bethaks, and i run quarter mile sprints for a mile and half...and i like having these three exercises as opposed to 20 to hit all the muscle groups.....those three calisthenics hit every muscle i use......


www.mattfurey.com

[Colucci]

...i can do 100 dands, 240 bethaks, and i run quarter mile sprints for a mile and half...those three calisthenics hit every muscle i use...

I'll take Power Cleans, Push Presses, and Pull-ups over your 3 anyday of the week. By training your muscles against resistance, through a well-designed program, you will get dramatically better strength, speed, and power than any calisthenic exercise performed for ultra-high repetitions.


...and i like having these three exercises as opposed to 20 to hit all the muscle groups...

If it takes you 20 exercises to work your whole body, you're doing something wrong. I can get the job done in 2-5 movements, depending on how fancy you want to get.

[Nissani]

I'll take Power Cleans, Push Presses, and Pull-ups over your 3 anyday of the week.






pull-up=calisthenic

[Colucci]

pull-up=calisthenic

That's the best response you can give me? Okay then, I stand corrected. I'll take Power Cleans, Push Presses, and Dumbbell Rows over the "Royal Court".

P.S. - I doubt you're going to crank out 100 pull-ups per set, which is the method I was discussing; Ultra-high repetitions of calisthenics.

The day I do more than 15 reps per set on any exercise, and expect it to improve my size, strength, or speed, will probably be the day after I get stuck in a triangle choke for a little too long, as I'd be suffering from lack of oxygen to the brain. :eek:

[Nissani]

yeah weights benefit you in the weight room...I'd been lifting for 5 years and all i had to show for it was 320 incline bench press and a knee that was well on its way to being screwed...i am only 18 the idea of not being able to walk without a cane is a good one right?...weights isolate joints and muscles putting a lot of unnecessary strain on joints that don't need that...for instance knees, lower back, shoulders, wrists, elbows...major problems if they are injured...moreover being inflexible in martial arts makes you more prone to injury...being that weights purpose is to isolate muscles tends make one bulk up...flexibility=strength(or atleast an advantage) in my book. weights don't give you that....


try this pull a gymnastic back bridge touch your nose to the floor remove your hands and hold that for 5 minutes...tell me you don't get a work out from that...the fun part will be touching your nose...

*basic idea is this hold yourself up using your feet and head...this doesn't harm your neck if you don't make any sudden movements*

[Tika]

yeah weights benefit you in the weight room...I'd been lifting for 5 years and all i had to show for it was 320 incline bench press and a knee that was well on its way to being screwed...i am only 18


I didnt even finish reading your post and I saw a problem. Lifting for 5 years already by the age of 18 with heavy weight was not the greatest of plans. Your body was far from fully developed when you started lifting. That could be a large part of the reason that you did not get the greatest results.

EDIT: read the rest of your post now. I have a feeling there will be a lot more said, I however do not feel qualified to give more of my opinion then I already did :D.

[LeadLegger]

Since pushups are low intensity, high reps, they would improve your size, but not strength?

[nenn]

low intensity high rep is supposed to (from what ive learned and been taught) tone muscle and make you stronger, just because someone looks HUGE doesnt mean they are stronger than you they just have more muscle mass in one location, the best location to have muscle mass is in your joints; ie knee wrist ankle ect..i hope this helps

[Tika]

Brace yourself....

[Colucci]

...Lifting for 5 years already by the age of 18 with heavy weight was not the greatest of plans...

Rock on Tika, you must be reading some good books!! :D

...weights isolate joints and muscles putting a lot of unnecessary strain on joints that don't need that...

I don't quite know what "weights isolate joints" means, but if you focus on compound movements, isolation is not a concern. And as to "strain on joints"; no muscle can be stressed/worked without some stress to the corresponding joints. However, it is only in response to this managable stress, that your joints will become stronger.

...moreover being inflexible in martial arts makes you more prone to injury...

Actually, I'd say that being inflexible in life makes you more prone to injury. However, I never said anything against a good stretching program.

...being that weights purpose is to isolate muscles tends make one bulk up...

Not necessarily, and certainly not if you do it the right way. Of course, the right way here means compound moves, and less ego-exercises. The things I see the average teenager doing in the gym (curls, bench presses, pec deck, lateral raises, pressdowns, leg extensions) are the exact formula for perpetuating the myth of "the bulky muscle-bound gorilla".

...flexibility=strength(or atleast an advantage) in my book. weights don't give you that...

Actually, too much flexibility, when combined with too little strength, is a recipe for disaster. So, I think your book needs some proofreading. Weight-training, when done with a full range of motion, encourages the co-development of functional strength and functional flexibility. Take, for example, rock-bottom squats. They are phenomenal for simultaneously developing solid leg power, and increasing hip, hamstring, quadricep, and calf flexibility. And, as I said earlier, I never spoke against a well-developed stretching program.

basic idea is this hold yourself up using your feet and head...this doesn't harm your neck if you don't make any sudden movements*

Okay, here's my favorite part of your entire post. You're telling me that you're training your body to become accustomed to getting into positions where it will get injured if you move quickly? So, we want to get used to staying in one spot for minutes on end? I don't think that would do to well for a developing grappler. Your Nose-picker-neck-bender-back bridge is nothing more than an extreme flexibility move, while maintaining static contractions of various muscles. Is it tough to do? Absolutely. Do I expect it to help me get into guard quicker, or lunge in for a single-leg takedown faster? Not...a...chance.

The "Royal Court", of super-high reps of Hindu push-ups, Hindu squats, and back bridging, is a gimmicky program, with little influence on muscle size, speed, or power. You will, without a doubt, get faster, more effective results from a well-designed weight-training program centered around variations of the Olympic lifts, the 3 powerlifts, and a handful of other exercises.
As an aside, feel free to comment on this latest snippet: www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15069&page=1&pp=15

[keinhaar]

Thing is...

The order of muscle fiber recruitment is rather orderly. You can't ignore certain ones, skip ahead, or focus on others...not wantonly, at least.

Hennemans size principle. It's very basic. Google it.

What I'm saying is, extremely high force actitives (aka "ballistic) in the gym, against added resistance, are absoloutly unneccesary at best....IF we're talking about developing strength for endeavors outside of the gym.

Skill development and real-time movement...that's another story, and it's specific to the exact task. Not something seemingly similar (i.e. doing push-ups to improve punching).

Obviously, if the weight-lifting is the sport itself (power lifting), that's another story.

[Tika]

Thing is...

The order of muscle fiber recruitment is rather orderly. You can't ignore certain ones, skip ahead, or focus on others...not wantonly, at least.

Hennemans size principle. It's very basic. Google it.

What I'm saying is, extremely high force actitives (aka "ballistic) in the gym, against added resistance, are absoloutly unneccesary at best....IF we're talking about developing strength for endeavors outside of the gym.

Skill development and real-time movement...that's another story, and it's specific to the exact task. Not something seemingly similar (i.e. doing push-ups to improve punching).

Obviously, if the weight-lifting is the sport itself (power lifting), that's another story.

Im confused, can you expand on this a bit? What do you mean by "extremely high force activities in the gym, against added resistance"

[keinhaar]

High force meaning rapid acceleration. The pure essence of what one should be doing in the gym environment (not sport specific) CAN be accomplished with a simple isometric repitition (though there are indeed other reasons to actually perform a dynamic rep). Physical work (external motion) is not neccesary to engage the METABOLIC work which occurs internally and sets in motion the strength/size growth mechanisms.

The forces we want to generate in punching, throwing, kicking are best developed by actually....punching, throwing, and kicking with the real resistance (namely none). Not simulating a punch by doing something, like rapid bouncy bench presses, which the body considers to be completely different neurologic endeavor anyway. But the greater strength we are able to develop in terms of physical tissue changes transcend whatever movement we ARE trying to perfect.

[Tika]

keinhaar: so, in plain english, are you saying that you think that lifting weights won't aid in improving your striking power?

Sorry, maybe im slow, but Im having some trouble getting what youre saying.

[Bugei]

Since im VERY small... I have been doing mass weightlifting. I plan on doing it for another .. 2 months or so... and then switch to the above method. Is that a Bad thing ?

Hi Skinny, have you tried 'Statics', I got great results in two weeks, (strength mainly) all my max poundages increased dramatically.
It's a time under load routine, heres the site, good luck... PrecisionTraining.com

Ps I mix it up with a boxing workout and polymetrics.

[Albert]

yes, good article, ive read that long ago tho. Are you really an mma fighter?

[keinhaar]

Bugei,

Static training rocks. It wipes me out though. I don't do it in conjuction with MA training. My recovery ability BLOWS...relatively speaking.

Tikka,

Weight lifting can improve striking power. But weight lifting should serve only to improve strength. By strength I mean the strength of the muscle as it applies to ANY joint function it's capable of. And that, as Bugei can attest to, need not even involve movement.

Training to punch should involve punching as it occurs in real life; i.e. NOT against a resistance, and full speed.

Strength training: low force, high resistance, generic strength development

Kicking/punching/takedowns/throws etc: High force, no resistance*, development specific to the task.

*I don't mean the resistance of partner, or the impact of a bag. I mean no cables, bands, cables to load the full range of motion.

[Tika]

Ok, lets see if I understand you now. Weight training will improve striking power. So will the actual practice of striking, but dont do the striking with weights. Yes?

[keinhaar]

Word.
:woo:

[Tika]

Well, you deffinitely said that the hard way.

[keinhaar]

Yeah, but I might have saved the trouble of someone saying: "Dude, shut up! I do clapping push-ups on broke glass alll the time and my punching power has definitly improved!!!1"

[Tika]

Yeah, but I might have saved the trouble of someone saying: "Dude, shut up! I do clapping push-ups on broke glass alll the time and my punching power has definitly improved!!!1"

How so? because they cant understand what youre saying ? :D

[Nrv4evr]

you can bodybuild all you want, but if you don't know how to use your body and focus it, then ur punching power is worthless. you don't have to have like 20 inch biceps to be strong, it just makes you stiff and slightly more resistant to strikes. moderation, as always, is a good thing.

[keinhaar]

Stiff?

**The notion of muscle bound comes from the old-time strong men who were also very fat. The accurate descriptive term should have been fat bound. But the wrong image stuck.

Histology (the anatomical study of the microscopic structure of animal and plant tissues) professors and the orthopedic physicians that Ken Hutchins has worked with have emphasized that tendons have very little elastic property. They are very static and not subject to being stretched.

In comparison, the contractile part in the belly region of a muscle is extremely elastic. Reflecting on this, it only makes sense that the more you can contract something, the more you can stretch it. In essence, you should be able to increase its length—stretch—by the same amount you can shorten it through contraction.

Knowing the properties of these tissues begs the question of just what is being stretched when you stretch a body part. Well, we know we do not stretch tendons and hopefully not ligaments. We can only meaningfully stretch muscle bellies.

Also, from the previous section, we noted that the length of a muscle belly potentiates the ultimate size of the muscle. Not only is muscular size at stake here but also flexibility. The longer the muscle belly, the greater the potential for stretch; i.e., flexibility.

Reflecting back on this are stories of hugely muscular men: John Grimek and Casey Viator. These two men—and a few others like them—are freaks of nature. They were so massive at their Mr. America events that they dwarfed other very muscular men. Of several impacts on the viewer’s mind was that they were bulky and inflexible. But this later proved to be an optical deception. Grimek is known to have ended his 1940 Mr. America posing routine by landing in a full split and then standing to bow to the audience by placing his elbows on the floor with his knees straight.

In 1971, Casey Viator became the youngest man to ever win Mr. America, also winning more of the Best Awards than anyone before. I have a picture of Casey jumping off the ground—the picture caught him in midair, touching his toes with straightened knees.

I believe that Arthur Jones would have stated that Viator and Grimek “were not extremely flexible in spite of their great muscularity but because of it.”

So back to our poignant question: What is being stretched? Obviously, both Casey and Grimek possessed a tremendous potential for stretch due to their long muscle bellies. This inherited—not acquired—attribute not only potentiates massive muscular size but also a tremendous elastic component.

Flexibility is limited by several factors: bony delimitations, any present arthritic conditions, muscle belly length (elastic potential), fatness, as well as the ligamentous and/or capsular integrity. Whichever of these is encountered first during stretch is that entity that sets the momentary limit of flexibility. If that entity is muscular, and more elastic potential exists, then flexibility can be legitimately increased. If not, or the other nonelastic components are the limiting entity, then flexibility will be gained only by damaging the joint’s structural integrity. The only exception might be that of fatness. If fatness can be appreciably reduced, then more flexibility might be legitimately gained.

http://www.superslow.com/articles/WhyNotPilates.html

[Fitz]

lol i stopped lifting weights long ago. Bodyweights are actually better than heavy resistance like the Bowflex and it makes u incredibly strong. Hindu push ups and Hindu squats actually develop better "explosive power" reactions, i think it's got plyometrics into it. Try 50 of those things, i promise u'll get a good workout at the sametime without ever messing up ur joints. That's how old people get back and wrist pains, they probably lifted too much heavy weights when they were young.

-Fitz

[Nissani]

i've got a friend he's 140 lbs he's 5,8...he's never lifted weights in his life ever...he's a drummer and hes a da*n fast one at that...he's in the top 2% of florida's drummers and top 5 in the nation...this guy is insanely fast especially with his hands...all he has ever done is stretching to keep from hurting himself while playing on his set... so his speed really isn't a surprise...what surprised me is regardless of my strength and obvious weight advantage of 70-80 lb...he could hold me and keep me off of him with little to no problem...and he could hit WAY harder and more accurate and of course with more speed...this was at the time when i was still lifting weights...true i could throw the kid off of me easily...he's an even match for me **not trying to say i am great fighter cause i am da*n well not as good as alot of people on this board i am certain..**...if i had fought this guy in a real street fight he would have whipped my arse... and i lifted weights regularly its funny how he was way stronger when it came to actually using the strength that counts outside of a weight room...

[Nimrook]

i've got a friend he's 140 lbs he's 5,8...he's never lifted weights in his life ever...he's a drummer and hes a da*n fast one at that...he's in the top 2% of florida's drummers and top 5 in the nation...this guy is insanely fast especially with his hands...all he has ever done is stretching to keep from hurting himself while playing on his set... so his speed really isn't a surprise...what surprised me is regardless of my strength and obvious weight advantage of 70-80 lb...he could hold me and keep me off of him with little to no problem...and he could hit WAY harder and more accurate and of course with more speed...this was at the time when i was still lifting weights...true i could throw the kid off of me easily...he's an even match for me **not trying to say i am great fighter cause i am da*n well not as good as alot of people on this board i am certain..**...if i had fought this guy in a real street fight he would have whipped my arse... and i lifted weights regularly its funny how he was way stronger when it came to actually using the strength that counts outside of a weight room...

genetics, plain and simple, genetic. one of the strongest men in the world weights only 176 lbs. he can bicep curl his body weight repetitively. The reason for this is he has a HUGE weight to strength ratio compaired to normal people. I don't know exactly what it is that gives him such abnormal strength but d*mnit I want some!!!!!!!!!

[d33pthought]

176lbs for biceps curl? That's scary. Actually, what's scary is a guy I read about who can deadlift 500 pounds one-handed.

[alexxlea]

How much does that guy weigh?

[d33pthought]

I don't know, off-hand..I'd guess somewhere in the 300lbs. range. Definitely no 176-pounder.

[keinhaar]

I don't know exactly what it is that gives him such abnormal strength but d*mnit I want some!!!!!!!!!

You'll have to get yourself a favorable muscle fiber distribution, number, and a biceps insertion half-way to your wrist.

[chylaxin]

Amazing article. Your wife is very intelligent and knows what she is saying. I look forward to another article written by her very soon.

[cybermonk]

There is a difference between strength training and body building, if you strength train the right way with weights you should be able to adquire great strength with minimal muscle mass gains. For example I have a 13 inch bicep and could curl 60 pounds with one arm while guys at the gym who could curl the same usually range from 15-17 inches in their biceps. Of course as martial artists we dont need the muscle, we need the strength.

[Kwan Jang]

-Where are you getting your "facts" from? There is a very direct link between the size and strength of a muscle. There are genetic differences between individuals, but on the same person, a larger muscle is a stronger one (faster too). This is not opinion or gym-speak/myth, this is proven fact within ex. phys. circles. Keep in mind that this is referring to quality lean tissue (muscle) and not fat and water making up the "bulk".
-While there is great value in having an excellent strength to body weight ratio (which to a large extent is geneticly predetermined), there is no real benefit for a martial artist to have smaller muscles or to be lighter. I would agree that there is little value in hauling around dead weight (fat) that contributes nothing to your performance, but muscle is what moves the body. The more horsepower the engine has, the faster and more effective the vehicle will be.

[cybermonk]

-Where are you getting your "facts" from? There is a very direct link between the size and strength of a muscle. There are genetic differences between individuals, but on the same person, a larger muscle is a stronger one (faster too). This is not opinion or gym-speak/myth, this is proven fact within ex. phys. circles. Keep in mind that this is referring to quality lean tissue (muscle) and not fat and water making up the "bulk".
-While there is great value in having an excellent strength to body weight ratio (which to a large extent is geneticly predetermined), there is no real benefit for a martial artist to have smaller muscles or to be lighter. I would agree that there is little value in hauling around dead weight (fat) that contributes nothing to your performance, but muscle is what moves the body. The more horsepower the engine has, the faster and more effective the vehicle will be.

My "facts" I am getting mostly from a book called "Power to the People!: Russian Strength Training Secrets for Every American." written by russian author Pavel Tsatsouline and my personal experience. Big muscle doesnt necesarily mean strong muscle and it certainly doesnt mean more horsepower as strength is what makes you fast, not the size of your muscles.

The real benefit for martial artists to have smaller muscles lies in the fact that you also carry less weight which makes your footwork faster aswell as your striking. The extra power gained by mass can be arguably proven to be matched by that power gained by the faster acceleration of a lighter body as momentum is mass x acceleration (if i remember correclty) reducing the mass and increasing the acceleration should balance out if the results attained are the proper ones.

On a sidenote: If you could bench press 200 pounds weighting 130 why would you want to increase your "lean muscle" to 180 pounds if you are still going to be benching 200 pounds? thats always been hard for me to get.

Forgot to add: There was a research done to see whether female gymnast should weight train or not which also proved the strength increase vs minimal muscle hyperthropy theory (http://www.sportsci.org/index.html?jour/trainperf.html&1). And the way to do this which I have been doing for a few months and has worked for me so far is the same explained in this thread's article which is to work out with 75-85% loads 3-5 reps and give a 5 minute break between sets. This has been proven to give the greatest strength gains without bulk(muscle hyperthropy).

The way people "strength train" in the gym is by doing 8-12 reps of somewhere between 60-70% loads and 1-3 minute rests between sets which has been proven to give a nice balance between muscle gains and strength gains but the strength/weight ratio will always be smaller than a person using the above method, at least that I have seen or read.

I also have my doubts about this "genetics" crap people usually say when they encounter skinny guys picking up more than the buffed people, its all about the right way of training...thats all.

[Kwan Jang]

-I will at least give you some credit for doing some homework, but you are still working from fallacies and misinformation. For example, if you weighed 130 and added 50 lbs. of lean muscle tissue to your body, for the most part, you would have a proportionate increase in strength (there are some other lesser factors that also contribute, but this is by far the main one). Genetics have been proven to be one of the biggest factors in athletic performance whether you understand/comprehend them or not.
-Whatever training methods you choose to employ are obviously your own choice and if you prefer to stick with this, it just means that I and my students will just be that much further ahead of you. This may come off as rude, but one of my pet peeves is the people who perpetuate the myths that you are expousing on this thread. So please don't take this as a personal attack, but rather one against an antiquainted myth towards training that really lacks any validity when one views the facts. Stupid ideas and lies die hard it seems.

[cybermonk]

So...you are saying im some sort of genetic beast? That just seems to me more mythical than what you say I am trying to pass as truth, I am simply saying what has worked for me and as you say you and your students are that much farther away from me...well i guess thats just based on from where you see it. You must also believe that people in the olympics weight lifting are genetic beasts since the record for the 56k weight class(124 pounds or so) on a squat is over 256kg(if i remember correclty) must be a lot of genetic beasts out there....basically these guys powertrain, not body build, which is what gives them the incredible strength/weight ratio that body builders can never dream off. Most body builders cant squat 5 times their weight, thats simply due to their training method nothing more.

On a sidenote: Dont worry about personal attacks, I am used to getting this kind of things from nonbelievers its just too bad I cant show you that would sure help you understand.

[Knight_Errant]

So...you are saying im some sort of genetic beast?
No, no, you've grabbed hold of quite the wrong end of the stick. We are calling you a liar.
A stronger muscle is not necessarily a bigger one, but a bigger one is ALWAYS a stronger one. Check out Kwan jang's thread here:
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15989&highlight=myth+muscle+bound

[Kwan Jang]

-Cybermonk, if you will read the posts from the thread that Knight Errant was kind enough to provide the link to, it will save me the effort of having to re-write all the info for you. I don't mean to come off as condesendnding, but if you are interested in improving rather than "being right", you could learn quite a bit. I was a champion black belt before you were born and was beginning to study for my Ex. Phys. degree while you were still in diapers (based on your profile).
-As far as Olympic champions being genetic freaks, that is exactly what they are. At least in any sport that requires any type of peak performance. They are genetic freaks who have maximized their natural gifts by training. I am not knocking genetic freaks, by the way. I am glad to be a member of that community. Thanks, Mom and Dad.
-When I first began weight training, I could bench press 315 and squat 400 lbs. at a bodyweight of 160 at age 18. By then, I had been doing martial arts for 12 years and been in international competition for 2 years along with the training of an elite athlete. When I began weight training, proper nutrition and quit overtraining on my cardio work, my strength and muscle mass sky rocketed. Within a year, I was squatting 500 for reps and benching over 450 and weighed 210. Within another year, I weighed 240 (at 6-8% bodyfat off season) and was doing competition legal squats of 780 and benches of 545. Last year I did an easy double of 800, rock bottom and I (when healthy) do moderate reps with 545 in the bench. When I used to do heavy curls (since you brought up this exersise), I had worked up to 275 for 10 reps in decent form on standing barbell curls. My speed, coordination and atletic performance has improved in proportion to this along about the same curve.
-You mentioned that you wish you could show me, well I can show you. Look in the PHOTO section under "Uke's Mom" where one of my students posted some pics of me. The jump split kick and (Static hold for photo) vertical round kick are at higher bodyweights than the muscle shots.
-If you really are interested in improving your athletic peerformance and enhancing your martial arts, I would recommend the websites Precisiontraining. com and maxcontraction.com. The new training methods using both static contraction training and it's cousin max contraction training show a lot of promise. Even if these methods don't live up to the hype in long term studies, the information on these sites are of enormous value and are based on actual studies and cutting edge information rather than hand-me-down knowledge like so many other sources. You could probably go a lot further exploring these than trying to justify why the old traditional methods past down for generations in kung fu are really the best ones afterall.

[keinhaar]

Kwanjang is REPEATEDLY delivering devastating shots to the groin and liver of TEH K0R3KT!!!1

Thank you for your sanity.

[cybermonk]

I weighed 240 (at 6-8% bodyfat off season) and was doing competition legal squats of 780 and benches of 545. Last year I did an easy double of 800, rock bottom and I (when healthy) do moderate reps with 545 in the bench. When I used to do heavy curls (since you brought up this exersise), I had worked up to 275 for 10 reps in decent form on standing barbell curls. My speed, coordination and atletic performance has improved in proportion to this along about the same curve.

I must say thats pretty impressive, about the age comments, well heh thats alright :D. But can you be a bit more specific? What kind of training did you do, how many reps with what % of max? etc.


You could probably go a lot further exploring these than trying to justify why the old traditional methods past down for generations in kung fu are really the best ones afterall.

There are no Kung Fu weight training methods...the monks never used picked up weights...or had a gym...or by the same token hit heavy bags or jump rope...those are all "modern methods" that claim to provide better results however I have yet to see or hear from someone who could spend half a day bent over backwards supporting all his weight on his head and comming out of it without being hurt. Oh yeah...also with no water/eating breaks...

[keinhaar]

the monks never used picked up weights...or had a gym...or by the same token hit heavy bags or jump rope...

There are a lot of things the monks didn't/don't do.

I bet bjj nutriders (like myself) could name a few. ;)

[cybermonk]

I dont quite get that...I am sure they did a lot more things than most people in our day and not only refering to training, also studying/working etc.

EDIT: Oh lol...hadnt seen the last line :D

[keinhaar]

That's to say...they don't tend to win a lot of fights either. At least not the ones us chi-less westerners get to watch.

But then again I tend to think martial arts, ultimatly, are about being able to hurt and kill other people better.

Edit: Oh, and somehow proving it.

:Alien:

[cybermonk]

I agree with you on that one, martial arts are arts of war designed to kill people thats just how it is. Of course we tend to adorn it with flowery philosophies but the bottom line is martial arts are arts of war meant to be used on the battlefield.

Edit: I dont know if they won fights or not but they certainly were among the most feared warriors of the time, even if they were kind/respectful etc...I would say that means something. And unlike us they didnt fight for sport a fight would most likely result in the death of one of the warriors.

[drunken master]

MMAfiter, i respect alot of what you said. But i'd like to ask you sumthing, for marial arts i've heard that machines that dont use balancing muscles are bad for training, as in most things you see in any gym, and that freeweights are much better for any martial arts training. Whats your opinion? Howabout sergical tubing for punching speed?

[blessed_samurai]

I have yet to see or hear from someone who could spend half a day bent over backwards supporting all his weight on his head and comming out of it without being hurt. Oh yeah...also with no water/eating breaks...


You should hang out with some long time Yogis (you know, the Yoga people...not the bear :D ).

Oh...sorry for drudging up an old post.

[rtkd-badger]

Great article, changing my training regime straight away.

[killer_kicks88]

-Where are you getting your "facts" from? There is a very direct link between the size and strength of a muscle. There are genetic differences between individuals, but on the same person, a larger muscle is a stronger one (faster too). This is not opinion or gym-speak/myth, this is proven fact within ex. phys. circles. Keep in mind that this is referring to quality lean tissue (muscle) and not fat and water making up the "bulk".
-While there is great value in having an excellent strength to body weight ratio (which to a large extent is geneticly predetermined), there is no real benefit for a martial artist to have smaller muscles or to be lighter. I would agree that there is little value in hauling around dead weight (fat) that contributes nothing to your performance, but muscle is what moves the body. The more horsepower the engine has, the faster and more effective the vehicle will be.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^this is absolutely right...if a muscle grows in strength, it grows in size...no way around it, cybermonk...if u have a 13 inch biceps muscle...and you can curl that much its because you have a multitude of fast twitch fibers, i have a 16 inch bicep and can curl only 40lbs., I'm not ashamed of this because i have more slow twitch fibers, its just how it is.

[shuyun3]

http://www.alwyncosgrove.com/x.pro/ModShow/ShowPage/44265 [guidelines to weight training]
http://www.alwyncosgrove.com/x.pro/ModShow/ShowPage/41520 [abs training]

The links by the way are in the context of martial arts training.

i'm not trying to be an alwyncosgrove fan here but his advice works. And a good reminder from is articles is that we strength train not to be stronger per se but to have better athletic performance.

the mindset in developing useful strenght has been enlightening to me. go take a look guys.

[Kev63]

Martial artists shouldnt bodybuild imho as it slows you down , only tonin and conditioning is acceptable unless yo uwont to become a slow ogre

[blessed_samurai]

Shuyun3, that's actually not to bad of a site; the guy makes some pretty good points and some very obvious points.

[blessed_samurai]

Martial artists shouldnt bodybuild imho as it slows you down , only tonin and conditioning is acceptable unless yo uwont to become a slow ogre

You won't find to many die hard martial artists bodybuilding, but you will see them strength training--both completely different but both will lead to hypertrophy in some degree or another.

[Kev63]

thats what i kinda meant lol

[shuyun3]

Shuyun3, that's actually not to bad of a site; the guy makes some pretty good points and some very obvious points.

thanks.

IMHO martial artists shouldn't worry about loss of mobility. After all working out is not all about weights or muscle building, flexibility endurance and other attributes are trained too.

but okay i'll have to admit my arm does not reach as far back as i used to because my delts are in the way but that's something i can live without considering i punch and kick harder and have longer wind. I'd say a loss of two inches of flexibility is a fair trade off.

still i can get back that lost flexibility with a more instense stretching routine. and besides we train for performance not for mass. as it was said somewhere in the links i posted we can get stronger without getting bigger.

as i have posted somewhere else in this forum I have a friend who's a 200+lbs karateka and former powerlifter. he' could get out of grapples by hook punching his way out (when he hook punches you'd either let go or get thrown). Or if you try to armbar him he'll bicep curl you! And he's someone oriented with techniques but why choose a complex motion when your simple movement is physically overwhelming in itself?

still most of us would see the bruce lee physique as more than adequate for most fighting needs but even he espoused a killer weight training routine. (and i do mean a killer)

[shuyun3]

Shuyun3, that's actually not to bad of a site; the guy makes some pretty good points and some very obvious points.

thanks.

IMHO martial artists shouldn't worry about loss of mobility. After all working out is not all about weights or muscle building, flexibility endurance and other attributes are trained too.

but okay i'll have to admit my arm does not reach as far back as i used to because my delts are in the way but that's something i can live without considering i punch and kick harder and have longer wind. I'd say a loss of two inches of flexibility is a fair trade off.

still i can get back that lost flexibility with a more instense stretching routine. and besides we train for performance not for mass. as it was said somewhere in the links i posted we can get stronger without getting bigger.

as i have posted somewhere else in this forum I have a friend who's a 200+lbs karateka and former powerlifter. he' could get out of grapples by hook punching his way out (when he hook punches you'd either let go or get thrown). Or if you try to armbar him he'll bicep curl you! And he's someone oriented with techniques but why choose a complex motion when your simple movement is physically overwhelming in itself?

still most of us would see the bruce lee physique as more than adequate for most fighting needs but even he espoused a killer weight training routine. (and i do mean a killer)

[Infrazael]

I want to develop speed and power. So, use heavier weights and train explosively is the way to go???

[shuyun3]

I want to develop speed and power. So, use heavier weights and train explosively is the way to go???
as per recent findings yes. but explosive does not mean out of control.

[satyr]

I have a questino:

In article it is suggested that : "Martial artists that want quick, powerful kicks and punches should be lifting in a manner that develops the fast twitch muscle fibers. One way to target these muscle fibers is through low volume, high intensity lifting. That is roughly 1-5 reps at 85-100% of 1RM. When training at such high intensity, you need ample rest between sets. Three to five minutes is recommended. "

oK lets say you listen to advice and give 2 minutes between each set and there should be a lot of sets. If you are doing a full body workout how are you suppose to be done in less than an hour??

[shuyun3]

I have a questino:

In article it is suggested that : "Martial artists that want quick, powerful kicks and punches should be lifting in a manner that develops the fast twitch muscle fibers. One way to target these muscle fibers is through low volume, high intensity lifting. That is roughly 1-5 reps at 85-100% of 1RM. When training at such high intensity, you need ample rest between sets. Three to five minutes is recommended. "

oK lets say you listen to advice and give 2 minutes between each set and there should be a lot of sets. If you are doing a full body workout how are you suppose to be done in less than an hour??

one: i don't do work outs for less than an hour.

two: i do 30 second rests the benefits of 2 minutes from 30 secons is not much diffeent if you breathe properly and give amople rest BETWEEN WORKOUTS

three: you can do that if you train synergist muscles together. (don't expect to train "every" muscle in your body like like in specialized split routines with isolation like preacher curls and single leg extensions) In other words use more muscle units per exercise.

E.g.

a bench press actually recruits tricep muscle units as well as the shoulders and chest.

dips train triceps shoulders chest and back.

squats in general do hams quads and calves and glutes and boy do my glutes hurt.

all these if you pay attention to form. of course it requires a paradigm shift of sorts but it does work that way.

martial artists punch as a whole body activity from the big toe to the tip of the knuckle. we kick with the abs as well as with the instep. no martial movement is the quuivalent of a preacher curl or a pec deck. but there are translations to tricep extensions, squats, cable woodchops and the like.

fourth: do supersets. with no rest in between proceed to another exercise to a related muscle group.

E.g. (1.)reverse crunches 15 reps (2) crunches 10 (3) obliques 15 each side then rest.

[blessed_samurai]

For explosiveness you can: lift really heavy weights, lift 45-55% of your 1RM explosively or 25-30% of your 1RM ballistically, this does not mean a million reps.

Satyr,
I would decrease the rest time to about 60-90 secs between sets to work towards strength-endurance. You really only need 3-5 exercises for a full body workout; you can easily get done in an hour.

[cybermonk]

Wow, this is a rather old post. Since I posted the above I have been working out with a friend and have realized that it is not the training regime that gives me the results, its just me. In the past months me and my friend have both increased around 15% in strength doing the same workout regime(low reps, high weight) yet he has grown considerably larger while I remain basically the same size and weight. What have I learnt? Im weird :D

Heh, cant believe I made an idiot out of myself in this thread a few months ago.

[shuyun3]

muscularity is in a large part genetic. and in the martial arts workout ideally you get stronger without getting (much) bigger.

size really doesn't matter (that much). mostly you should be ableto graduate into high reps not stick to slow reps because yu wanna be able to do more reps of your techniques in combat. (endurance)

[blessed_samurai]

muscularity is in a large part genetic. and in the martial arts workout ideally you get stronger without getting (much) bigger.

size really doesn't matter (that much). mostly you should be ableto graduate into high reps not stick to slow reps because yu wanna be able to do more reps of your techniques in combat. (endurance)

There must be an evil dwarf that keeps spreading this rumor. What martial artists want is strength-endurance. This method is employed by high weight, low reps of short rests, such as 30-60 secs.

[Infrazael]

Sorry for my lack of understanding, but what does all the RM and symbols mean? sorry.

[shuyun3]

There must be an evil dwarf that keeps spreading this rumor. What martial artists want is strength-endurance. This method is employed by high weight, low reps of short rests, such as 30-60 secs.

i'm sorry. by muscularity i mean the buuild and the rippling muscles that win awards in body building competitions. the beauty of the muscles while they do need to be worked out and given a lot of hard work, in the end the champion body builder owes a lot to endowment. tow body builders following the same routine will get different looks in their muscles.

but as to strength-endurance as the wish of every martial artist of course. as i stated you can become stronger and hardier but it will mot always translate to a certain look in the muscle. in the gym guys who can lift twice my benchpress are not twice as large. some times even skinnier than i am. muscluarity is not equal to strength.

but as to strength and endurance of course we want to have it. strength first then endurance though. when you move up your poundage you start with with low reps high sets. then gradually moving up to be able to do more reps per set then poundage etc.

if you're sticking to one weight and just playing with reps and sets it will plateau.

[shuyun3]

rep = repetition, how many times you can repeat the same movement
sets = a set of repetitions followed by a rest period
RM = rep max maximum repetitions for a given weight.
1rm = the heaviest weight that you can lift which only allows you one rep.
x%1rm = x% of your 1 RM

[InsaneSocrates]

i'm sorry. by muscularity i mean the buuild and the rippling muscles that win awards in body building competitions. the beauty of the muscles while they do need to be worked out and given a lot of hard work, in the end the champion body builder owes a lot to endowment. tow body builders following the same routine will get different looks in their muscles.

but as to strength-endurance as the wish of every martial artist of course. as i stated you can become stronger and hardier but it will mot always translate to a certain look in the muscle. in the gym guys who can lift twice my benchpress are not twice as large. some times even skinnier than i am. muscluarity is not equal to strength.

but as to strength and endurance of course we want to have it. strength first then endurance though. when you move up your poundage you start with with low reps high sets. then gradually moving up to be able to do more reps per set then poundage etc.

if you're sticking to one weight and just playing with reps and sets it will plateau.

Why would you say that? Endurance is one of the most important physical attributes. Without it you are useless---you would have no energy to apply all that hard-earned strength.

[blessed_samurai]

Why would you say that? Endurance is one of the most important physical attributes. Without it you are useless---you would have no energy to apply all that hard-earned strength.

::Whispers:: strength-endurance.

::nudges Adam and KE for more updated stickies.::

[add]

The topic here is bodybuilding, not endurance training or strength. Bodybuilding in my view is to some extent pointless, I would rather work on technique than purely building muscle mass.

I’ve heard many martial arts claim they are set apart from others because they don't teach 'strength on strength', but focus on technique. I have studied many martial arts including boxing, and none of them teaches this, that is why to me building muscle has no place in martial arts.

[redsandpalm]

Tim Sylvia had a go at bodybuilding, he was already a champion fighter etc. but wanted to 'look' like a champion fighter. He took steroids and got caught.

Lesson?

Be ugly and win fights.

[Maverick]

I have studied many martial arts including boxing, and none of them teaches this, that is why to me building muscle has no place in martial arts.

If muscle has no place in martial arts then why do all of the fighters in K1/pride/UFC etc have relatively large, protruding muscles?

Muscles = speed + strength, two of the most important requirements of a MA.

[add]

If competing in tournaments is your goal than muscle would be more useful than not having muscle, but I wouldn't consider MMA fights to be martial arts. Muscle weighs more than fat so might slow you down if you didn’t have sufficient tone.

And only the heavy weight divisions have massive muscles, the lighter weight divisions have great muscle tone, which I would consider to be much more valuable than muscle mass. Suppose building muscle tone is included in bodybuilding, but I was just thinking of the muscle mass side of it.

[Maverick]

If competing in tournaments is your goal than muscle would be more useful than not having muscle, but I wouldn't consider MMA fights to be martial arts. Muscle weighs more than fat so might slow you down if you didn’t have sufficient tone.

And only the heavy weight divisions have massive muscles, the lighter weight divisions have great muscle tone, which I would consider to be much more valuable than muscle mass. Suppose building muscle tone is included in bodybuilding, but I was just thinking of the muscle mass side of it.

What do you mean by muscle tone?

[add]

Not sure what muscle tone is exactly, I've been trying to look it up but with little success. I think muscle mass is the amount of muscle fibres you have in a muscle and tone is the density of the fibres :S!

I always think of it as muscle mass = schwarzenegger and muscle tone = Bruce Lee

[Maverick]

Ok, it would be a good idea not to use terms you don't know the meaning of.

The only difference in 'tone' between Bruce and non-Olympia Arnold is that Bruce had very low bodyfat which made his muscles stick out more.

Forgetting that bruce trained as an MA, and Arnold did not, Arnold could have punched/kicked just as fast.

In things like K-1, all of the fighters have a lot of muscle mass, comparitive to their frame, and they are all fast.

Basically, big muscles don't necessarily slow you down. Muscle does weigh more than fat but fat is a useless deposit, muscles are the things which generate speed in the first place.

Toning is a buzzword that means low bodyfat and pronounced muscles.

[add]

i seeee. I would still personally not bother with building muscle, if my MA helps me grow muscle mass than cool, i could use some! But I wouldn't go to a gym for the sole purpose of lifting weights.

[T C D*fighter*]

i seeee. I would still personally not bother with building muscle, if my MA helps me grow muscle mass than cool, i could use some! But I wouldn't go to a gym for the sole purpose of lifting weights.

Then you will never gain any muscle mass!

[Developing]

The topic of this thread is bodybuilding for the martial artist and a lot of other topics were brought into the thread. I think this is fine even though it drifted off topic it was very informative and I learned a lot. I think one thing that might be remembered is that weight training is a suggested method for training in the martial arts, it is not the only method. I know martial artists that weight train often and are good fighters and I know martial artists who do not weight train at all and are good fighters. So I think its all about picking what works for you. Personally I like to incorporate the weights into my workout and the calethestenics as well. I got a great workout from teenbodybuilding.com that is a navy seal workout using no weights. I have a friend who just got back from Iraq and is a buds graduate and he's told me I have the real thing. Doing this in conjuction with the weights has been very beneficial to my martial arts conditioning. But I don't frown on people who frown on weights.

[accept-help]

[U][B] Martial artist wight Training [B][U] / im not so good in english

im pretty young but i know things and have read much :)..
u couldent do more then 3 days a week in wight training or u wont improve that fast and tak the other 3-4 days whit some non-wight traning, oky to faster improved muscels and strenght on wight training , when u do like a bench press u could take the barbell slow down and fast up agein it should be done by all exursises. and u sgould do from 2-5 sets whit 8-12 reps it will greatly improve ur muscels, and if u do the exursises right u dont need to strech ur muscels. and one thing taht is really really importante is to do the exursises right or u will ruin ur muscels.. talk whit some1 whit experianse. and when it goes whit back training dont take to much wights on.......

[U][B]Get good skills in punching and kicking[B][U]

a really good exursise for arms is to go in fighting posision and grap some wights in each hand and shadow box, if u really want to gein skills fast do a pyramid training ,ann example: take first whit no wights and hit 50 times each hand and when that is done take some wights on ur han and do 50 on each han and more wights whit 50 on each hand and go down agein whit the wights and do it to u got no wights agein!!...
to gein good speed power and strenght on the hand u could train ur forarm and ur shoulders find some exursises for that.
to get good kicking, kicking is always a good thing to do, u can do it whit wights on ur legs. walking/jogging/running is always good, u got frog jump and ursal jump for good snap training.

good for legs!!
oky heres a good jogg program, if ur really out of not in good shape start walking do not start jogging.. u will improve faster if u start walking!!.
and example: if or not so bad shape start walking in 2min and then running in 2min and do taht over and over agein... ur if ur lower in the system start walking in 2min and jogging in 2min, if ur really in good shape u could jogg in 2 min and then run in 2min
(the 2mins is just when u start whit it u just increase the mins whit secs and u will improve fast!!).

[U][B] Training at home [B][U]

oky its much u can do home!! just reallt think of what u have home and try it out :).
and exursise for chest, its good for bech training!.
oky take 2 shears and play them from each other and take ur arms on it and do puchups, go so long down u can, if it gets to easy ether take some wights on ur back or take something lower then the shears :)
its many things u can do whit shears just think and try!!.

[U][B]Streaching[B][U]

right after u have bad ur muscles rdy for training streach alittle, dont streach so u can feel it just streach. when ur done whit the training dont just bust in to a streach go slightly or u will lose ur improvments u done the training!!.

[U][B]to be ann good fighter is not all about muscles,power or speed[B][U]

ur thinking has much to do whit fighting, it could be hard to think when it really counts to improve ur thinking u could meditate or take yoga... its takes training to maditate ,and will ur at some place think of situasions .. ann example: like if ur on the street and u se 2 guys think that they will attack u and think what u shall have done, and do not be supriced if they attack!!
to learn meditation search for it on google :)

[U][B]Diet?[B][U]

oky u dont need any diets , just stay away for things like coce,pizza and french frise and stuff like that.. when ur from 1-22 year u dont need to be afreid to eat so much when ur in that age ur growing and that take much fat,
but be sure to get inuf energy in ur body!!, but when ur older then that be carefull for what u eat. or u could always trein avery day and give a **** about what u eat. but u will feel bether if u eat right. and never eat to little!!

[accept-help]

morn

[averan]

snowball fight!!!!
see here: http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=709887#post709887

no tag-backs!

[freak]

i have been doing bodybuilding for 2 years now and i just started to do martial arts recently....this is a great post, i was wondering if i shoul change my weight lifting routine to help me with the martial arts...great post!

[narcsarge]

i have been doing bodybuilding for 2 years now and i just started to do martial arts recently....this is a great post, i was wondering if i shoul change my weight lifting routine to help me with the martial arts...great post!

It sounds like you wrote my story. I have been weight training for over 2 years and I have 1 month in TKD. The only training change I have made is that I will not do legs on the days that I go to the dojang. It hurts too bad the next day. But I can do a decent leg work out the day after TKD. I have also worked more on flexibility and not on increasing muscle mass. I think I will keep this up for at least 6 months and then reevaluate where I am. :cool: :Angel: