KSW Roots

[AirNick]

Can someone please tell me why this forum never seems to go more than one or two months without someone coming on here and telling us how 'flawed' our art is and how 'true' theirs is?

You don't see any of us going on to other forums saying 'our art is better than yours'. We are here and we like it, deal with it.

Also, has it ever occured to you that we actually know this stuff already?

[Unknown Entity]

Amen to that brother!

[davefly76]

couldn't agree more.

all i need to know about the roots of ksw is covered in textbook 1. i don't need some jumped up karate practioner to tell me that all korean styles originated in japan so therefore ksw and it's history is flawed.

if that is the case then we may aswell all drive around in mercedes benz' as they are acclaimed to have produced the first motor car.

:)

[baubin2]

But I can't afford a Mercedez-Benz! Whaddo I do? Whaddo I DO?!?!

:D

[Unknown Entity]

Guess you better buy a flawed Aston Martin or Jaguar. :eek:

[AirNick]

And another thing:

Kuk Sool is not just a load of hapkido techniques with a questionable past. In shotokan and other forms of karate, you don't get to use all the vast array of weaponary we have, you don't get our forms (which I think are some of the most beautiful forms in the martial arts as a whole), you don't get all our acrobatic jumping kicks etc etc

This is why we choose to study Kuk Sool and not shotokan, because we like all this stuff!

Sorry, rant over

[DL.Demolition]

In my opinion KSW doesn't have a style. We do not have the rigidity of some martial arts we adapt our style to overcome what stands before us. We have certain principles but those in themselves have flexability.

DL

[Silentmonk]

And another thing:

Kuk Sool is not just a load of hapkido techniques with a questionable past. In shotokan and other forms of karate, you don't get to use all the vast array of weaponary we have, you don't get our forms (which I think are some of the most beautiful forms in the martial arts as a whole), you don't get all our acrobatic jumping kicks etc etc

This is why we choose to study Kuk Sool and not shotokan, because we like all this stuff!

Sorry, rant over

Passes AirNick his dummy back :D
What happened, who's picking on my mate???? Something must have gone off to rattle his cage this bad. I'm the outspoken one
Put em up........put em up !!!!!!!! :woo:

[davefly76]

Passes AirNick his dummy back :D
What happened, who's picking on my mate???? Something must have gone off to rattle his cage this bad. I'm the outspoken one
Put em up........put em up !!!!!!!! :woo:

LOL you sound like scrappy doo! :D

[Silentmonk]

LOL you sound like scrappy doo! :D

Bugger secret identity destroyed. Dave you said you wouldn't tell anyone. I want my uncle Scooby. :cry:

[Grippereeno]

Seems to me that anyone that comments on KSW roots forgets that the present day organised system is less than 50 years old... Hundreds perhaps thousands of years ago any wrangleing (sp) over grandmastership/unhappiness/disgruntlement with a particular system/art including most of what other people view as ancient true arts where often settled with fights to the death. Now a days this cant be the case because of the legal implications. I suppose what the point im tryin to make is that a lot of martial arts went what ares is going through now hundreds of years ago.. IMO KSW has some excellent martial artisits who show unparraleled dedication to what they believe to be an effective art however as an association where just finding are feet really..

A bit of a rant too on my part but im a bit sick of hearin about the rights and wrongs off split off's and questionable history....

[coc716]

It's like with religion... people choose what they choose because they believe it best and right, and as a result all others are inferior, lesser, wrong, and those on those paths are just doomed to failure. People that follow "the others" are following lies, untruths, or other evils and therefore must be saved and have their eyes opened to the truth. And those following "the right path" believe its the responsibility to do just that.

*sigh*

I will agree that you find all sorts throughout the martial arts world. Everyone wants to present themselves in a particular way, and often there's truth, there's semi-truth, and there's fiction... and unfortunately with so much of it floating around in different amounts and mixtures and so much that's difficult or impossible to confirm, people just grow skeptical. As well, in time many people pick what they choose to believe, and perpetuate that as Gospel Truth even if it itself might be full of the very half-truths they're intending to dispel. It's tough to sort the wheat from the chaff. I don't think anyone is out to follow lies... we're all seeking Truth in our own way.

Even Kuk Sool Won has issues in its history. I know what's written in Textbook 1. I've read interviews, spoken with and/or read things from "old school" KSW Masters. Read books, poked around. There's a lot of uncertainty, there's a lot of questions, and I guess only In Hyuk Suh really knows The Truth here. But does it really matter? Did we choose this art because of the history? Is history really that high a requisite for choosing an art to study? I guess for those that hold history in such high regard, perhaps it is.

But as I've seen it, most people choose their art because it works for them. The kicking, the punching, the way they fight, the throwing, the locking, the sparring, the exercise and conditioning, the weapons, the "cool factor", the fact they want to be a high flyer and work in movies or the fact it makes for good sport and they want to be in the Olympics or the next PRIDE Bushido champion. Whatever your reason(s). Just because you can trace your lineage back some 10 bazillion years to the first amoeba that formed, or you can't trace it back further than your immediate teacher... does it really matter? If it's effective, it's effective. If it's fun and what you want and is fulfilling whatever it is that you're seeking, isn't that all that matters?

I chose to study Kuk Sool Won because of what the art (system) itself offers. I didn't do something like karate or taekwondo because I wanted locks and grappling. I didn't do something like bjj because I wanted striking. I didn't do Hapkido because I like forms, and I really like the KSW forms (beautiful, especially higher level forms). I like the weapons curriculum of KSW. I even like the fact it's a Korean art, since my Mom is Korean (tho I was born and raised in white-bread America, Mom immigrated to the US in her 20's) and there's some cultural aspects in the art for me. Do I really care about the history? It's interesting, sure. But as far as the martial art, no, not really. Does the history somehow make my punch or my hip throw better or worse? Does 5000+ years of history make an attacker back off, or the fact I can trace lineage perfectly back through 150 generations keep my family safe?

Taking a specific example, Yong Sool Choi is surrounded in controversy and unknowns as to where he received his skills that ultimately became the art of Hapkido. Why does it matter so much where and how he received his skills? Isn't the bottom line the fact he had skills, that he was effective with them, and the fact he chose to share and evolve that knowledge?

There will always be those interested in history, and that's fine. I certainly find historical studies interesting. But I'm here to study martial arts. When I go to the dojang, I'm not going there to learn history. I'm going there to learn how to fight (martial, right?), to exercise, and to have fun.

[davefly76]

coc716,

good post.

:)

[Choiyoungwoo]

coc716,

good post.

:)


The only relevance about MA history is that any uncovered discrepancies are a reflection of the persons claiming this or that. which uncovers the character of that person. Many want to discredit KSN and other founders in an effort to re enforce what they want to believe.. We can't help any embellishment he may have made to shore up ksw history that help them in this pursuit . But if it is so then a character debate is sure to follow. and no one wants that..

[coc716]

The only relevance about MA history is that any uncovered discrepancies are a reflection of the persons claiming this or that. which uncovers the character of that person.

That's a very good point.

[KSW_KJN]

And another thing:

Kuk Sool is not just a load of hapkido techniques with a questionable past. In shotokan and other forms of karate, you don't get to use all the vast array of weaponary we have, you don't get our forms (which I think are some of the most beautiful forms in the martial arts as a whole), you don't get all our acrobatic jumping kicks etc etc

This is why we choose to study Kuk Sool and not shotokan, because we like all this stuff!

Sorry, rant over

LOL! Wow AirNick, someone kick your puppy? :) Good points all around.

[AZeitung]

And another thing:

Kuk Sool is not just a load of hapkido techniques with a questionable past. In shotokan and other forms of karate, you don't get to use all the vast array of weaponary we have, you don't get our forms (which I think are some of the most beautiful forms in the martial arts as a whole), you don't get all our acrobatic jumping kicks etc etc

This is why we choose to study Kuk Sool and not shotokan, because we like all this stuff!

Sorry, rant over

Hapkido isn't Shotokan karate, either. It's Daito-Ryu, some Kung Fu, and only a little Shotokan. There may even possibly be some Taek-Gyun in there somewhere, although, that's probably questionable. But seriously, Hapkido is drastically different from shotokan karate, with the exception of a few things, like the punches and similarities in some of the stances. Those few similarities are present in KSW, too. We do tend to use much narrower long stances than karate, though.

Supposedly there's a big praying mantis kung fu influence on KSW. I've heard people say that it's likely that Kuk Sa Nim learned some kind of praying mantis Kung Fu from his grandfather, since Chinese martial arts had a big impact on Korea and were often passed down as family styles through Korean lines.

BTW, Hapkido does contain a lot of weapon stuff. Some of the other Kuk Sool weaponry probably came from the Muye Dobo Tongi (I know that at least one thing did - the Jang Bong form I learned at Daenport), and probably anything else came from Kung Fu.

[Choiyoungwoo]

Hapkido isn't Shotokan karate, either. It's Daito-Ryu, some Kung Fu, and only a little Shotokan. There may even possibly be some Taek-Gyun in there somewhere, although, that's probably questionable. But seriously, Hapkido is drastically different from shotokan karate, with the exception of a few things, like the punches and similarities in some of the stances. Those few similarities are present in KSW, too. We do tend to use much narrower long stances than karate, though.

Supposedly there's a big praying mantis kung fu influence on KSW. I've heard people say that it's likely that Kuk Sa Nim learned some kind of praying mantis Kung Fu from his grandfather, since Chinese martial arts had a big impact on Korea and were often passed down as family styles through Korean lines.


Kuk sa nim is a korean kung fu (ship pahl gye) master. That plus the probable common hapkido origins, and other miscellaneous stuff. gives you kuk sool. and answers a lot of questions that usually go unanswered.

[KSWMark]

Well i think the more influence from other arts the better, although i would still like KSW to remain relatively orginal i also welcome other tried and tested ways of training, techniques etc. because it makes KSW all the more complete.

[Choiyoungwoo]

Well i think the more influence from other arts the better, although i would still like KSW to remain relatively orginal i also welcome other tried and tested ways of training, techniques etc. because it makes KSW all the more complete.
While I don't really disagree with your thoughts on outside influence being a plus, I don't think there is a meaning to the word "Original". Kuk Sool has always proported to be a amalgam of skills. What's funny is that WKSA black Belts are forbidden to cross train w/ other styles. Mixing and matching is not only discouraged,, it's against the rules of WKSA. It seems that the desired influence you speak of has already happend to the extent that it will within wksa 40 or 50 years ago when ksw was formed. I haven't noticed any, officially, however there seems to be people leaning that direction often.

[Unknown Entity]

Mixing and matching is not only discouraged,, it's against the rules of WKSA.

No I know that it is against the rules of WKSA, but how is this rule governed? I know of many high ranking instructors that cross train and recommend cross training to there students to enhance there knowledge in MA. How does Kuk Sa Nim keep control of this and what are the consequences should the WKSA find out?

My personal opinion is that if the instructor is good and teaches effectively then there should be no reason to stop the student cross training? It seems that for some there might be a fear that they will lose students to other arts.

The only time I would discourage cross training is when it affects the students learning of the KSW syllabus.

At the end of the day we are all students with the aim to learn but as we chose to practice Kuk Sool then we should respect the rules.

[Choiyoungwoo]

No I know that it is against the rules of WKSA, but how is this rule governed? I know of many high ranking instructors that cross train and recommend cross training to there students to enhance there knowledge in MA. How does Kuk Sa Nim keep control of this and what are the consequences should the WKSA find out?

My personal opinion is that if the instructor is good and teaches effectively then there should be no reason to stop the student cross training? It seems that for some there might be a fear that they will lose students to other arts.

The only time I would discourage cross training is when it affects the students learning of the KSW syllabus.

At the end of the day we are all students with the aim to learn but as we chose to practice Kuk Sool then we should respect the rules.

Well "by the book" the black belt would no longer be in WKSA.. It seems that it is rather difficult to enforce and virtually impossible to monitor. Appilcation of reprimand is ambiguious at best. And applied on a case by case basis depending on exactly what happens, (which sounds like it very selective). It seems that sort of a "don't ask, don't tell" is unofficially in effect.

[JSun]

The subjectivity of historical events documentation is present in all societies. Do you think the Mexican students are taught the same as American students learning the history of the battle at the Alamo? Of course not. Cultural bias is unavoidable.

[KSW_KJN]

Well "by the book" the black belt would no longer be in WKSA.. It seems that it is rather difficult to enforce and virtually impossible to monitor. Appilcation of reprimand is ambiguious at best. And applied on a case by case basis depending on exactly what happens, (which sounds like it very selective). It seems that sort of a "don't ask, don't tell" is unofficially in effect.

The purpose is to avoid dilution of the art. The fear is that as BBs train in other arts, they will begin to incorporate it into their curriculum, breaking the standardization of the art. Reprimand/expulsion is only used for those that have severely deviated from the art's core curriculum. Typically, these individuals are "encouraged" to leave the organization at that point.

[KsnMmC-Scotland]

Martial art is ment 2 be about what works for you blah blah blah etc....like a famous martial artist once said lol think his name was lee......lol
Anyway....all am sayn is that it is a personal journey... if someone feels like doing say mmmmmmmm kik karate do aerobics let em lol bet someone takes my idea here n goes and makes lots of money lol ...If someone is happy doing this art of no style KSW lol let them - obey the princible of the style without being bound by it lol am sure bruce said this too lol all am meaning hear b4 i get jumped n slagged n blah blah blahd lol is u owe it 2 ya self 2 be honest 2 ya self..if u enjoy doing something do it if u have questions go get the answers but dont diss someone else for their quest...
Oh eye and Lastly
Monk as if we didnt know who you were before you blow your little cover lol...
man this forum is like a little bitch squad man.
easy 2 type piss not so easy 2 back it up for real

KJN Richard if that is you sir, I say hello to you and hope all is well.

I have practised KSW since 1990 and am sure if you met me you would have to say damn....that boy has style and hey he is doing Kuk Sool lol now that can't be - HE MUST HAVE DID SOME SECRET NINJA STUF 1ST B4 KSW LOL..........NOT !!!!!

[Unknown Entity]

hmmmm, Kik Karate Do Aerobics.....you've got me thinking now....lol

Think I could get a slot on some obscure digital tv channel doing classes on the beach wearing a leopard skin leotard surrounded by tanned ladies?????? lol

[KsnMmC-Scotland]

Eye Defo I Could Be Ur Pr Lol

[Unknown Entity]

Deal but only if you wear a pink leotard! lol

[Choiyoungwoo]

The purpose is to avoid dilution of the art. The fear is that as BBs train in other arts, they will begin to incorporate it into their curriculum, breaking the standardization of the art. Reprimand/expulsion is only used for those that have severely deviated from the art's core curriculum. Typically, these individuals are "encouraged" to leave the organization at that point.

Yes that sounds about right. The assumption is that ksw is complete and no one would want or need to cross train. As far as standardization goes, how does a black belt learning or studying bjj force ksw to change the curriculum? If you are sticking to wksa syllabus as a teacher or black belt during ksw training, but want to study shotokan on your own how does that hurt? How can WKSA even attempt to control what people do outside the dojang? Is that ethical, moral or even legal?

[CJ]

hmmmm, Kik Karate Do Aerobics.....you've got me thinking now....lol


Sorry it is all ready here it is called Tae bo and some schools of the WTF

[CJ]

How can WKSA even attempt to control what people do outside the dojang? Is that ethical, moral or even legal?
To answer this is easy.
People Talk, and word will spread quickly. Think about it, I coulds come on here and say something. And someone that is close to Kuk Sa Nim could tell him. And besides I have heard in KSW after black belt you art not aloud to anyway.
And about legal, just depends on if you signed a contract stating such.

[Unknown Entity]

Yeah but do they have leopard skin leotards.......that will be the thing that swings it for me......

Will need to trademark it!!!

[psbn matt]

think of it this way, if you had set up a martail art system would you not try and safe gaurd its purity? could you trust instructors who cross train not to slip in things from other arts, because they think they work better? all martail arts need to evolve, but should a korean system include modern brazillian,eupopean,japenese ect techniques in its curiculem, would it then still be right call it a traditonal KOREAN martial art?
i personaly don't know the answers to these questions, and to be honest i am glad i don't have to. but for as long as kuk sool suits my needs i will do it, and that means i will abide by its rules and guidelines.

[Silentmonk]

think of it this way, if you had set up a martail art system would you not try and safe gaurd its purity? could you trust instructors who cross train not to slip in things from other arts, because they think they work better? all martail arts need to evolve, but should a korean system include modern brazillian,eupopean,japenese ect techniques in its curiculem, would it then still be right call it a traditonal KOREAN martial art?
i personaly don't know the answers to these questions, and to be honest i am glad i don't have to. but for as long as kuk sool suits my needs i will do it, and that means i will abide by its rules and guidelines.

I think that aslong as the primary art doesn't get dropped inorder for the secondary art to take its place then its positive. A lot of people cross train areas that are missing not areas already there and just bring training methods from the other art to make theirs stronger. Most peoples bodys are formed the same way so a joint lock a punch or a kick cannot really be given a nationality. :)

[i don't care]

who the f*k cares anyway?

[Choiyoungwoo]

Yeah but do they have leopard skin leotards.......that will be the thing that swings it for me......

Will need to trademark it!!!



that is HILARIOUS!!!!!!! :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[Choiyoungwoo]

I think that aslong as the primary art doesn't get dropped inorder for the secondary art to take its place then its positive. A lot of people cross train areas that are missing not areas already there and just bring training methods from the other art to make theirs stronger. Most peoples bodys are formed the same way so a joint lock a punch or a kick cannot really be given a nationality. :)


Good point

[KsnMmC-Scotland]

Tae Bo lol Billy Blanks make money out of joe bloogs aerobic style....tapes mmm nice no bastard die zattion there then lol

[Choiyoungwoo]

think of it this way, if you had set up a martail art system would you not try and safe gaurd its purity? could you trust instructors who cross train not to slip in things from other arts, because they think they work better? all martail arts need to evolve, but should a korean system include modern brazillian,eupopean,japenese ect techniques in its curiculem, would it then still be right call it a traditonal KOREAN martial art?
i personaly don't know the answers to these questions, and to be honest i am glad i don't have to. but for as long as kuk sool suits my needs i will do it, and that means i will abide by its rules and guidelines.

The point is that "purity" is an illusion. the mixing of skills from many different places is exactly how ksw was formed..... But I agree that as long as it serves my needs I will do it with in its guidelines.

[davefly76]

who the f*k cares anyway?

not you obviously

:D

[KsnMmC-Scotland]

Why would any1 need 2 cross train if you are well versed already in punching range, kicking range and grappling range lol and oh eye have got nice joint locks 2 for mid range lol oh eye and personal fitness trainer, teach ma n pro breakdancer.....lol oh eye and i do ksw lol man man man we say white sum1 say black lol am a ksw instructor n u wont find me bound by my system...obey the principle n rules without being lost 2 it ....I suppose it depends on where you train or who wiff or who ur instructor is. or what experience you have been through...why is it alwayz goin 2 be sum1 typn a diss 2 sum1 else lol damn talk about genuin experiences man..stop the diss of a fellow ma unless u r standing infront of them and sayn match or equall what am about to do lol but that wont happen will it !!!!!

[AirNick]

Nope, I can't understand a word of that

[psbn matt]

we'll have to get jkngt to translate.

[Choiyoungwoo]

Nope, I can't understand a word of that

ditto,, I think it's funny/sad. But it give me something to laugh at. :D

[psbn matt]

i found this and thought you all might like to read it.

HISTORY OF NATIVE KOREAN MARTIAL ARTS
Written by In Sun Seo

The majority of today's Korean martial artists believe that the origin of martial arts came only from China. In particular, it is thought by many that the Great Teacher Dahrma, who is known as the founder of the Shaolin Temple, is (also) the father of every kind of martial art. However, this is untrue. This kind of thinking is a mistaken notion, steeped in toadyism. Martial arts are not something that were founded by any particular individual or group. That is to say, martial arts are not something that could be founded in any certain nation.

The reason is that martial arts started as natural outgrowth of techniques used from prehistoric times by primitive people to find food and to protect themselves and their families from wild animals Therefore, all areas of the world have indigenous kinds of combative arts used for developing mind and body, as well as for fighting.
In addition, all kinds of indigenous weapons techniques have been developed throughout the world. Among the various early weapons that existed, there have been different kinds of both rough and polished stone tools excavated in every part of the world. From many parts of the Korean Peninsula, too, stone swords, stone knives, stone spears, stone arrowheads, stone axes and so on have been unearthed. The range of finds in Korea extends from Kyunghung Province; Hae Ju and Anak in Hwanghae Province; Yangyang and Choon chun in Kangwon Province; Ansung in Kyung-gi Province; Puyo in south Choonchon Province; Andong and Kyungju in North Kyungsang Province; and Mirang in South Kyungsang Province. It's reasonable to assume that Korea's forefathers used these types of stone weapons for both food-gathering purposes and also for self-protection against wild animals and savage enemies.

The stone-throwing techniques of those prehistoric Koreans have survived down to this very day and are called too-suk sool ('stone-throwing arts'). The awesome effectiveness of these stone throwing techniques was amply displayed in the battles at Hangjin and Chinju mountain fortresses during the Japanese invasions into Korea in the late 15th century under Hideoshi. In addition, it is recorded that members of the royal family and high-ranking scholars of the Shilla Dynasty enjoyed a game developed for amusement called doo-ho (an ancient game of pitching arrows into a pot). Other forms, such as sword-throwing and spear tossing developed out of this, and it is not difficult to conjecture that archery also was connected with this kind of activity.
As human civilization advanced in Korea, an agricultural society gradually emerged. Ancient Koreans, who had originally lived around Mt. Bektu (between the borders of modern day North Korea and Manchuria), began to migrate southward and settle where the living environment was more attractive. It can be presumed, therefore, that because of an increased awareness of and a greater fondness for territorial possession, it was necessary for that society to cultivate new and improved types of combative skills.

A sedentary lifestyle led to a collective social body. In the communal system, clan units merged together into tribal units and a clear distinction between the leaders and the followers came about. In addition, feuds and struggles with other tribal units naturally resulted. Under these conditions, individuals could not help but try to maintain a strength that was mightier than that of other individuals in order to protect themselves and their own group.

In order to attain this kind of superior strength, people trained themselves through running, wrestling, swimming, hand-to-hand fighting, and other such activities. It is also natural to assume that the fundamental development of such weapons as staff, spear, swords, bow and ax took place around this time in the civilization's history.

Unfortunately, there are few detailed accounts of ancient Korean martial arts in existence today. In the Samguk Sagi (History of the Three Kingdoms, written during the 12th century), there are merely fragmentary allusions to a double-sword dance in the nation of Karak (Karak, also known as Kaya, existed on the southern tip of the Korean Peninsula between approximately 42 BC to 562 AD). In the Samguk Yusa (Memorabilia of the Three Kingdoms, written during the 13th Century), it is recorded that generals in the three kingdoms of Koguro, Paekchae, and Silla trained hard at martial arts and contested among themselves. However, there is no detailed description of the martial arts used or the specific techniques involved.

Even though there are no detailed explanations about the martial arts techniques, examination of the power struggles that characterized the Three Kingdoms Era reveals that there were both military officers and lower ranking soldiers who were acquainted with a vast array of martial arts. In addition, it is recorded that the majority of martial arts practitioners of that era relied on teachers and/or martial arts books for their training. Therefore, it can be surmised that there existed texts that explained martial arts techniques in detail at that time.

Ancient texts, wall painting, and sculptures depict persons shooting arrows from horseback, as well as scenes of archery, stone throwing, and playing in a kind of martial polo game, hunting, and other such activities. In these scenes, there are individuals or groups of persons posed in strange postures and confronting other individuals or groups of persons in similar postures. These postures are precisely martial arts stances of attack and defense that are employed while facing an enemy. The empty-handed martial arts of today still use these very same postures.

[Choiyoungwoo]

This is perfect thanks for posting it.

That narrative, as good as it is, raises some questions. (by the way, it was written many years ago when the Suh/Seo family was still one MA group.) First of all the "Korean Forefathers" are not necessarily the forefathers of the people living in Korea today. So why do modern Koreans get to stake a claim on something that people who just happend to live in that same area did hundreds or thousands of years ago? That would be like modern americans trying to claim the development of something done by Caddo Indians in 200 B.C..

Ancient Koreans, who had originally lived around Mt. Bektu (between the borders of modern day North Korea and Manchuria), began to migrate southward and settle where the living environment was more attractive wouldn't these people be considered chinese or the forefathers of chinese? Why do they get to be Koreans or Chinese? It is well documented throughmitochondrial DNA records that EVERYone during these centuries was migrating.

My point is that I don't believe any of todays nations or cultures warrant a specific claim on this (if anyone maybe the chinese). The most acccurate description is Asian Martial Art because it occured in that general area. It is an unfortunate example of how people tend to try to "nationalize" something for the sake of a current need. Don't get me wrong... I'm glad they developed the system. The history of the skills is probably reasonably accurate, but the obvious bias for this to be "korean" makes me suspicious of the authors agenda, and I wonder what other embellisments exsist for the same reason.

[KsnMmC-Scotland]

My last post was aimed at a PM I got that was to say the least cheeky and bs. The person who sent it will understand what my post was saying. It was'nt ment as anything other than to answer him in the open.

[davefly76]

i don't think it was what you wrote but the way it was typed. totally illegible.

:)

[kriztowfur]

ksw is not a style of martial arts.

[Thomas]

i found this and thought you all might like to read it.

HISTORY OF NATIVE KOREAN MARTIAL ARTS
Written by In Sun Seo

Interesting read... do you have a link or reference to the source? I'd like to read more.

[Choiyoungwoo]

ksw is not a style of martial arts.
irrelevant

[KSW_123]

Interesting read... do you have a link or reference to the source? I'd like to read more.
I think it was originally written for the old and out of print Kuk Sool red book. It is slightly longer in my edition than what is presented here, but it is essentially the same. My guess is that the text here was pulled off of Choon Sik Yang's web site. He was a student of In Sun Seo years ago, and ex kuk sool master. If I can get the time and my OCR S/W works then I'll post what is in the "Red Book".

[psbn matt]

here's another one you all might like to read.

''HO KUK MOO YEA" (The Arts used to defend the Nation) BY IN SUN SEO The superb martial arts of the ancestors of the Korean people are among the earliest developed in the world. The martial art legacy of the Korean people has been hidden for many years due to the fact that during the end of the Lee Dynasty of Koryo and the dark 36 years of annexation by the Japanese, martial arts and martial artists were either killed or forced to hide their knowledge in order to survive. The existing martial arts of that time (Tribal or Family Buddhist and Royal Court martial arts), were persecuted almost to the point of extinction. The Japanese adaptations of martial arts learned from early Korean Kingdoms: particularly the PUYO Kingdom and PAEKCHE Kingdom were reintroduced into Korea as original Japanese martial arts and forced on the Korean people.

After the independence of Korea on August lath, 1945, Korean martial artists tried to revive Korean martial arts and bring them to the surface again, but due to the heavy influence of the Japanese, many of these arts basically imitated

Japanese movements and names. The radiant martial arts of the Korean ancestors were not represented by these exhibitions and fortunately the Korean ancestors did not have to see it. Even in these modern times, many people believe that Korean martial arts were imported from Japan and China. This would be a laughing matter if it were not so tragic. Our association head IN HYUK SUH and others were saddened by the ignorance of the world to the rich legacy of Korean Traditional Martial Arts. In an attempt to rectify this situation, they travelled to many places throughout the Korean peninsula in order to research and re-establish the Korean martial art tradition.

Many historical sites were visited, along with hundreds of temples and as many different masters of traditional arts as could be found. The research included close examination of murals, cave wall paintings, archaeological and historical evidence, interviews and practical training. Much time was spent looking at the shape of things, listening, gathering information and getting the ''feel'' of Korea's past traditions.

The first step of this travel was research at locations in the area of the ancient Karak Kingdom. Examples of these martial arts are the Double Sword Dance and Staff arts. Other traditions of historical martial arts were found at Hae In Sa Temple. Tong Do Sa Temple and temples in the Pusan, Kim Hae, Masan, Jin Joo, Yang San, Chung Moo. Chang Myung, Hool San and the Kyung Nam Do area. Information gathered from these sources yielded our current Kuk Sool Won Sword Dancing Form (empty-handed), Double Short Sword Form, Double Long Sword Form and Staff Forms, including short, intermediate length and long staff. From information in the Sam Guk Yu Sa we know that the Silla kingdom's sword technique was well known even in China.

From information garnered in the cities of Kyung Ju, Tae Gu, Yong Chun, Sun San, Sang Ju, Hoe Hong and An Dong, and from trave1 throughout Kyung Bok Do province the weapon techniques of sword, inc1uding long sword movements, reverse sword movements and empty hand forms such as Sam Bang Cho Hyung and Kyuk Pa Hyung were discovered. The ancient kingdom of Paekche martial arts, found throughout the north and south Chulla Do provinces in the cities and areas of Chun Ju, Kwang Ju, Yaw Soo, Kun San. Chohng Up Mok Po, Tae Chun Su Won and A-san, are demonstrated by our Crane Dancing Form, Rope Tying Techniques and other empty hand weapon arts.

From the Seoul area, Chun Chun, Kang Nung Sok Cho, Chol Won, techniques popular during the Koryo Dynasty such as, 108 Torments Form, Fan and Cane Techniques, and Pressure Point attacks were found. These techniques were all invented or developed in the past twenty-four centuries, the Lee Dynasty and particularly during the reign of King Chong Joo.

This accomplishment of research into secret materials took more than twenty years of hard work, hard times and difficulty in survival. The enormous work, while still not completed, has been organised into the present day Kuk Sool Won system which divided into 3608 techniques that are found in 270 divisions.

Although this work was trying it was truly a labour of love to be transported back in time, through the Three Kingdom period (Silla. Paekche and Koguryo) Koryo and the Lee Dynasty. Looking at the murals and the tile designs one could see the empty hand fighting motions, sword, spear, and staff forms, as well as defence and attack postures so lively that the similarities to today’s current Kuk Sool Won movements and postures is obvious.

Through all these trying times Teacher In Hyuk Suh tried to spread the traditional martial arts to his fellow countrymen. Some especially able and talented disciples were sent to Pusan, Seoul, Kuang Ju, Tae Chun Tae Gu, Chun Joo Chun Chun Ma San, Mok Po, Yaw Su, Shoon Chun, Chin Ju, Kun San, and elsewhere. These masters of Kuk Sool were dispatched throughout the country and after twenty years. hundreds of branch schools were established with over a million members passing through the doors of Kuk Sool schools and some fifty thousand Black Belts.

The reputation of Korean historical Martial Arts (Kuk Sool Won) is spreading throughout Korea and in many places of the world. In 1972 Kuk Sool was listed in the World Physical Education Encyclopaedia. Around the world, Kuk Sool has been shown in thousands of demonstrations for many years, in gymnasiums, festivals, competitions (national and local), schools, television and newspapers. Because of these extensive works people everywhere recognise the existence of Kuk Sool and its strength. Of special importance, Kuk Sool was recognised by the government and in early 1977; the Korean Cultural Department produced the film ''Ho Kuk Moo Yea'' (Historical Martial Arts for National Defence) which featured forty Kuk Sool Masters in the film. This film was shown overseas to promote Korean Culture and understanding and to educate other countries to the Traditional Martial Arts of Korea. This film greatly uplifted the historical importance of Korean martial Arts. Also in January 1978, of all the martial art groups in Korea, Kuk Sool Won was once again chosen to represent Korean Traditional Martial Arts at a memorial ceremony celebrating 75 years of Korean immigration in Hawaii.

This was a landmark event for the Kuk Sool ambassadors, Chiefmaster In Sun Seo and eight others. They were dispatched to foreign countries and to their native country fourteen times to demonstrate and show the excellence of Kuk Sool. There is much pride within Kuk Sool associated with these events.

The reason Kuk Sool Won is so well recognised is not just because the technique is superb, but because all the members and officers in the association work from one mind and one body. Korea's saying, "White Clothing, Pure Country'' is the same as our association logo. We value etiquette and manners as of utmost importance. It is important to know many techniques, but we value etiquette equally. True martial artists do not desire to hurt people, but strive to serve their fellow countrymen and strengthen society. We strive to be a group associated and known for national prestige and high ideals.

The current Kuk Sool Won techniques are compiled into levels of instruction consisting of beginner, intermediate, advanced and black belt levels. The techniques include arts and skills such as fist arts, leg arts, gathering power for defence, pressure points, escorting techniques for capture, rope tying techniques, staff arts (short. intermediate. long), sword arts (straight, reverse. double, long and short swords), palm striking (open palm. reverse palm, spinning palm, side palm) fan and cane, techniques, circular blocking techniques Internal power techniques, head-butting techniques, lower abdominal breathing techniques (internal and external), under black belt empty hand forms, above black belt empty hand forms and weapons forms.

Many believe Kuk Sool to be the most scientifically developed and organised martial arts to be found anywhere in the world. These techniques and arts left to us by the Korean ancestors, from the scholar's martial arts of pressure points, joint-locking, fan and cane to the warrior's martial arts of sword, staff and spear will continue to be researched and exposed.

[ImaJayhawk]

This link includes part 2.

http://www.usadojo.com/martial-arts-articles/article-history-korean-martial-arts.htm

and an alternate ending from the KIDOhae site:

Korea was annexed by Japan in 1910. Every aspect of the Martial Arts in Korea underwent an
extremely serious crisis and the entire Martial Arts tradition began to disappear. It was indeed the
darkest hour in the long history of Korean military arts.

During the 36 years of the Japanese occupation of Korea, practically the life span of a whole
generation lost its freedom and identity. The Japanese authorities tried to completely eliminate
Korean thought, Korean cultural arts, and the very foundation of Korean traditional Martial Arts,
which had been preserved in Korea for thousands of years. Ironically, it was the Japanese who had,
in the past, brought Korean traditional Martial Arts into their own nation and then modified those
arts to suit the Japanese culture. Then in this century, the Japanese tried to assert that Korean
Martial Arts originated in Japan. In fact, today's Karate, Kendo, and Aikido were probably
influenced by the traditional Korean Martial Art tradition.

The classification of different types of Martial Arts as various kinds of "Do" is a Japanese way of
thinking. In Korea, on the other hand, the Martial Arts have been recognized traditionally as being
either "Ki" ("skill"), "Sool"("art, method"), or "Kiyae" ("mechanical art"). That is to say, Koreans
looked upon Martial Arts as either a means of fighting or as method of developing the mind and
body.

Examination of the ancient Korean historical records reveal that such terms as "moo-do",
"koong-do", or "gum-do" were not so much as once used. It was only after the middle of the
Japanese colonial rule in Korea that the term "do" first appeared in Korean records. In Korea,
"mu-yae" or "moo-sool" were traditionally used instead of "moo-do". In the same way, "koong-sa"
(bow shooting), or "koong-sool" (bow technique) were used by Koreans instead of "koong-do". In
addition, "yoo-sool" was used in Korea, not "yoo-do".
After the Korean liberation from Japan (August 15, 1945), Korean Martial Arts (i.e. "moo-yae" or
"moo-sool") spread rapidly throughout the country. Classical Korean Martial Art techniques, which
had been hidden, one by one surfaced and became publicly known. The reason for this rapid public
disclosure of secret arts stems from the rivalry that developed between each proponent of some
individual Martial Art form. That is, individual masters of their own particular Martial Art techniques tried to show theirs to be the "superior" Korean Martial Art.

However, the majority of these Martial Art skills to surface at this time were not organized
systematically and were nothing more than individual techniques. Hence, after a brief flurry of
activity, many of these arts ended up fading out of sight again.

Although these classical Korean Martial Arts were highly-developed, I suspect the reason for their
disappearance were either because of the difficulty of adapting them practically to the needs of the
modern society, or because they weren't something which could be made into sports.

1985. 9. 25
Written by
In Sun Seo (Official 10th Dan)
Chairman/President
Korea KIDO Association
World KIDO Federation

[psbn matt]

cheers for that ImaJayhawk, very intresting.

[Thomas]

Thank you!!!!!! Good stuff to read. There are some things that I don't really agree with and think may be a bit of nationalistic whitewashing of Japanese influence on Korean arts. Then again, this is pretty typical for the 1980's in Korea... so from a historical perspective of the source's age, I am not suprised.

Regardless, I love GM In Sun Seo and what he does. Sometime in 2006 (early), he has a new Hanminjok book coming out which is supposed to have quite a bit of history in it. I am curious how much different it will be and what it will consist of. I have ordered a copy (and actually my picture will be in it! :D ) so I'll revisit this topic after I read it and digest it!

[coc716]

Regardless, I love GM In Sun Seo and what he does. Sometime in 2006 (early), he has a new Hanminjok book coming out which is supposed to have quite a bit of history in it. I am curious how much different it will be and what it will consist of. I have ordered a copy (and actually my picture will be in it! :D ) so I'll revisit this topic after I read it and digest it!

I've heard about this book and am curious about its content, given the author.

How did you order a copy? I wouldn't mind putting in an order myself.

[psbn matt]

same here

[Thomas]

I've heard about this book and am curious about its content, given the author.

How did you order a copy? I wouldn't mind putting in an order myself.
My instructor, myself, and a couple of our blackbelts are also Hanminjok Hapkido black belts. We received a letter from Hanminjok Hapkido Association asking if we wanted to purchase a book and to supply photos of all HMJ HKD black belts for the book. I think it was $100. I have no idea how you would go about ordering more. If you contact the Hanminjok Hapkido Association at webmaster@hmjhapkido.or.kr you may have some success. Sorry not to be more helpful.

[coc716]

If you contact the Hanminjok Hapkido Association at webmaster@hmjhapkido.or.kr you may have some success. Sorry not to be more helpful.

Ok, I have sent them an email asking how one can go about (pre)ordering the book.

If I hear anything (useful) back, I'll post it here for those interested.

Thank you, Thomas.

[coc716]

I tried emailing webmaster@hmjhapkido.or.kr and the email bounced. :( Who knows... maybe something is down and since it's the weekend no one is tending to it.

I'll try again later.

[coc716]

Repeated attempts to email webmaster@hmjhapkido.or.kr were unsuccessful... email always bounced. So instead I tried websabum@kidohae.com and did receive a reply:

Thank you for your interest in our upcoming book. GM Seo's book is not
ready yet, we anticipate sometime in the late spring,it will be
completed. Please contact us at that time, thank you.

Sincerely,

Sara Seo
Secretary General
World KIDO Federation

So I guess we just have to wait a few more months and check back later.

[psbn matt]

here's another article you all might like

KUK SOOL WON'S FIGHTING ANIMALS
BY
JANE HALLANDER
Tae Kwon Do Times, November 1996

For some reason, martial artists like to believe that the study of animal fighting tactics is exclusive to and has its roots in Chinese martial arts. Not so, according to ancient records and modern day martial art masters, like Kuk Sool Won's ninth degree master, In Joo Suh. While Chinese martial arts appeared to place a greater emphasis on individual animals by establishing whole systems around a single creature (Preying Mantis Kung-Fu, for instance), other countries, such as Korean, found animals as a whole to be an important source of fighting knowledge. "Early man had to eat, and out of this need, hunted for his food. As he foraged, he watched and copied the hunting and survival tactics of other animals he hunted, and occasionally he also used these skills against the larger animals that found man as suitable prey. Over time, man developed a crude form of martial arts, begun mostly through trial and error (costly if he lost) and through imitation of other animals' fighting behaviours." Explains San Antonio, Texas, based Suh.

As the human race grew and established territories and nations, martial arts in those territories expanded, particularly when these countries went to war with one another. War between nations gave man the opportunity to further develop his martial arts into ever more advanced forms; some of these would become a way of life and a code of ethics for martial artists. As he watched an eagle catch a rabbit, two tigers fighting, or a snake capture a frog, the budding martial artist added not only more techniques but also the spirit and fighting principles of each animal. While the use of animal fighting tactics is common to Chinese martial arts, it's not quite as well known to other cultures. Perhaps the nature of Japanese martial arts, to take an example, place more value on man-created techniques than those developed from other forms of life.
Korea, on the other hand, brought a more practical and straightforward approach to its martial arts. While animal hunting and survival tactics played a role in Korea's martial history, they were obscured due to centuries of no-non-sense fighting. Only in certain Korean fighting systems have the principles of animal fighting styles surfaced to form an integral part of the art. Specifically, Kuk Sool Won, a martial art with roots extending to the very beginning of recorded Korean martial history, utilizes information derived from careful observation of many different animals.

However, still keeping with the Korean philosophy of basic practicality, Kuk Sool Won animal forms are vastly different from those of other martial systems. Kuk Sool practitioners believe that merely to imitate the animal is not good enough. People are not animals. People reason, rather then react. Humans have different body structure, two legs instead of four. Therefore, just imitating an animal's motions doesn't make a powerful, effective technique. Only by careful conversion of each individual creature's fighting principles into human requirements does the animal forms become effective. Then, not only are they an effective method of fighting, but they greatly enhance and expand the human warrior's strength and capabilities.

Each Kuk Sool teacher has special martial interests that he carefully cultivates, making him as expert in this specialty. Master In Joo Suh, who heads two Kuk Sool Won schools in San Antonio, Texas, studies and applies animal forms as one of his special martial tools. Suh has spent considerable time observing the animals that Kuk Sool Won has drawn from Korean martial history. Suh refers to the ancient theory of five elements to explain the importance of studying more than just one animal. "The five elements of martial strength," he explains, "are speed, internal power, breathing, balance (body control), and practice. These are important; not only to martial arts, but to the animals we study. Even the animals adhere to the five element basics when they practice their fighting tactics in the guise of play."

Just as Kung Fu's five elements (water, fire, earth, metal and wood) have different qualities and relationships, the Korean five-element theory dictates that each animal has different strengths and weaknesses over other creatures. To elaborate, no single animal is completely free of enemies and natural predators. The snake runs from a crane, while the crane, in turn, flees from an eagle. As in the Chinese description of the five elements, there is a continuous circle where each animal counters another creature and is countered by still another.

That's why, in Suh's opinion, no martial artists should be satisfied with the knowledge of only one type of defence, animal or not. For instance, if a small person has to defend himself against someone larger, he shouldn't have to rely on the tiger form, for example, that requires great strength. Instead, he might call upon his knowledge of the snake's fighting habits, placing his entire body power into his defensive counterattacking blow. Although there are other animal forms to be found in Korean martial arts, not all suit the individual practitioner, and the student should choose only those that do. Suh, himself, has five favourite animals.

Praying Mantis

One of Suh's five animals is the praying mantis (sama-gi). Pound for pound, Suh says, a martial artist with internal training (ki development) can project seven times his normal strength. However, the praying mantis bears strength 3,000 times his own body weight. It's incredible that a creature with such a light body and long spindly legs can be so strong. Actually, those long legs, when coupled with a relatively heavy head, produce excellent overall body balance and a stable foundation from which to operate its quick, front-grabbing arms. The insect's foundation is so solid that when the mantis strikes, only its front arms need move. Of course, man isn't built like a praying mantis. Therefore, he has to adapt the insect's fighting tactics to his own physique and needs. Only the basic principles of action and power are duplicated within the martial artist's arsenal.

Korean praying mantis techniques are short, close-range manoeuvres, using the fingers and back of the knuckles as striking surfaces. The backs of the wrist and back of the palm are also employed in praying mantis techniques. A strike is usually followed by a grab with the striking hand, which then pulls the opponent off balance and into range for another blow. In order to keep a strong, stable foundation, there is little variety in the footwork used with mantis strikes. As with some of the other animal techniques, praying mantis strikes are directed toward the body's sensitive pressure points. The actual insects don't have the advantage of pressure point knowledge. That's something man has added to enhance the speed and balanced attack he borrowed from the praying mantis.

For effective pressure point strikes, the martial artist's fingers have to be strong and well conditioned -- otherwise, he won't be able to penetrate the pressure point. This is true not only of the praying mantis but of all animal forms that use finger strikes. To develop strength in their fingers, Kuk Sool practitioners rapidly open and close their hands, many times in succession, until they develop penetrating strength. They also practice push-ups on their fingertips as a conditioning aid.

Snake

"The snake is 100 percent defence", he explains. "It strikes only when it is threatened or attacked. When the snake is relaxed, its body is merely a long, rope-like tube. However, when it senses danger, the snake immediately prepares itself for battle. At that time, when its body coils into a defensive position, the snake's body power is transferred to the head -- the actual striking area." The fighting principle borrowed from the snake is one of defensive attack from a prepared position, one that allows the entire body force to transmit out through the Kuk Sool stylist's hand or foot.

Pressure point strikes, made with two fingers bracing one another, are popular defences within the snake form. Other hand and foot techniques are also employed, including occasional head butting. All hand and foot blows are quick, circular, almost wrapping techniques, and are many times directed from a cat stance position. These defensive strikes are similar to the coiling and uncoiling action of a snake. In keeping with the snake's basic character, Kuk Sool stylists wait until after the opponent punches or kicks, evades his attack, and then immediately counterattack. A real snake often uses constriction to defeat an opponent larger than itself. Kuk Sool Won snake techniques follow the same approach. Kuk Sool stylists might capture their attacker in a chokehold by faking a high kick and then finish by suddenly wrapping their leg around their opponent's neck.

Tiger

Ho-rang-ee (the tiger) is strictly an attack animal. Suh makes it clear that the tiger is not completely represented by the popular claw hand seen in other martial arts. The animal uses its speed and heavy body weight to pounce upon and break the backs or necks of its victims. Then, it bites victims in a vital area to finish them off. Although a tiger will use its paws and claws in fighting situations against opponents of similar size and weight, it employs the greatest power when hunting and killing prey. Therefore, Kuk Sool uses a solid, palm breaking technique rather than a scratching action to represent the tiger. This is the same palm used to break boards and concrete that simulates a human foe's body. Another characteristic of the tiger is that it always attacks the front portion of the prey's body. The front exposes more vital areas of the victim's body to the tiger's bold, aggressive attack. In Korean history, the tiger was the most important non-spiritual animal.

Eagle and Crane

In Joo Suh is also very familiar with two bird fighting forms: the eagle (dok-soo-ri) and the crane (hak). The eagle is a strong fighter, geared totally to offence. Whereas tigers attack from the front, an eagle strikes only from behind the prey, using claws to catch its victims. If a frontal attack is made, it is easy for the intended prey to evade an eagle, which has only claws for weapons. An eagle frightens and panics the victims by circling overhead prior to attacking. As the prey becomes more and more panicked, if flies towards the ground, allowing the eagle to make its attack from above and behind. This is the fighting principle that Kuk Sool Won takes from the eagle. Often after first fooling their opponents with a faked technique, Kuk Sool practitioners grab sensitive pressure points with their well-conditioned fingers. They also use similar eagle finger techniques to lock joints. Again, finger and hand development are essential before eagle techniques is completely effective.

The crane set of techniques, although based on a creature one hundred percent the aggressor, is composed of loose, relaxed and quick moves, manifesting a much softer power than the eagle's power. Since the crane isn't a physically strong animal, it combines relaxed, soft power with extreme speed to capture prey. In order to obtain success with loose, supple power, it's necessary for the crane to focus intent and energy into one point. The snake also focuses power toward one point, and both creatures place the whole body weight into the head, which is used as a striking surface. However, the crane uses long-range, relaxed movements, while the snake action is short and hard. Suh makes the point that, within Kuk Sool Won animal forms, crane movements never allow the martial artist to expose his body, as do some other martial arts that imitate a crane with his wings outstretched. He emphasizes that people are not animals, and that since only the animal's basic fighting principles are important, there is no reason to try to resemble an animal.

Other lesser-known animals, commonly though of in martial circles, including the bear and the leopard, are also seen in Kuk Sool. A bear is actually a defensive animal. It fights standing upright and uses extreme bulk, body balance and strength to power its large paws. Some Kuk Sool palm techniques, requiring a strong stance, are taken from the bear's fighting strategy. Leopards are strictly attack animals using extreme speed. The leopard's fighting tactic is that is doesn't care or worry about retaliation. The animal's speed is so great that it neutralizes the speed and power of the opponent. That is exactly the theory that brings the leopard into Kuk Sool Won. There are no special hand techniques cauterising the leopard, just blinding speed and forward thrusting power.

When several animal fighting principles have been mastered, Kuk Sool stylists put them together into rapid, successive combinations of fighting techniques. From each animal, martial artists take it unique fighting habits and combine them with their human though processes to further enlarge their martial expertise.

[coc716]

Speaking of articles....

I recall seeing an article on Kuk Sool that was something to the effect of "Learn Asian martial arts, why not from an American?" or something like that. The article was working to dispell the myth that you can only learn a particular cultural art from someone of that culture (i.e. can only learn a Korean art from a Korean).

I believe the article may have originally been in Black Belt magazine (probably from the late 1980's), but I don't recall for sure. I only saw a reprint of the article online, but recently when I went searching for the article again I couldn't find it anywhere online.

Does anyone know the article I'm talking about? Does anyone have a copy? either just the text, or maybe scans or screenshots or even a PDF saved of the article?

[ImaJayhawk]

Speaking of articles....

I recall seeing an article on Kuk Sool that was something to the effect of "Learn Asian martial arts, why not from an American?" or something like that. The article was working to dispell the myth that you can only learn a particular cultural art from someone of that culture (i.e. can only learn a Korean art from a Korean).

I believe the article may have originally been in Black Belt magazine (probably from the late 1980's), but I don't recall for sure. I only saw a reprint of the article online, but recently when I went searching for the article again I couldn't find it anywhere online.

Does anyone know the article I'm talking about? Does anyone have a copy? either just the text, or maybe scans or screenshots or even a PDF saved of the article?


Thank you internet archive!
http://web.archive.org/web/20040312075443/http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/kki/1986/dec86/kuk/kuk.html

[coc716]

Thank you internet archive!
http://web.archive.org/web/20040312075443/http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/kki/1986/dec86/kuk/kuk.html

I forgot about the Internet Wayback Machine!!

Thank you, ImaJayhawk!

To get an idea of how old the article is, it says "Marlon Sims is a second-degree kuk sool black belt from Tuskegee, Alabama."

[ImaJayhawk]

I forgot about the Internet Wayback Machine!!

Thank you, ImaJayhawk!

To get an idea of how old the article is, it says "Marlon Sims is a second-degree kuk sool black belt from Tuskegee, Alabama."

I think it was printed December, 1986.

[CJ]

I have a question for all of you that train in Kuk Sool Won.
As a person that used to train in a korean art that had more in fighting than you heads could ever wrap around.
I got to the point and I think that you all need to get to the point of.
People are going to talk out of there a--. But the thing is are you going to let it get to you. And if it has, then you are not into the art as much as you think you are.
The world will not end if you let the dumb people of the world post on forums like this one.
But you have to be smart enough to figure out who is full of B.S. and who is not.
Also there is a thing of walking a way from the computer.
People alot of time post on here to make themselves feel like they are somebody when they have nothing going on in there lives. And some post on here just to get you going.
How you deal with it is what matters. Not some body that has never trained in your art saying you. Well Kuk Sool Won is crap because your history is full of it.
I am sure you all are smarter than that.
I hope.

[Thomas]

Dr. He-young Kimm has written a lot of books and ius known for his attention to detail and depth. His Hapkido ( I ) is very good and has a nice section on history. He also studied and wrote a book on Kuk Sool. Has anyone read it?

What is Dr. Kimm's take on Kuk Sool's origins and history?

[psbn matt]

here you go thomas

Modern Kuk Sool History 1910-Present
Taken from Dr kim’s Kuk Sool Book


The founder of Korean kuk sool won is grandmaster in-hyuk suh, 10th dan black belt. Grandmaster suh received his first instruction from his grandfather, master myung-deuk suh, who was master instructor at Korean royal court army until 1910. when Japanese annexed korea, she abolished the koean royal court army, so master suh came down to his home town in kyung sang province. While compiling kuk sool techniques, he taught these arts to his grandson, in-hyuk suh. Before the old master passed away in 1952, he handed down five compiled books of kuk sool to young master suh. They are: 1) yu sool; 2) kwon sool; 3) yu kwan sool; 4) whal bub; 5) hyul bub.

After his grandfather passed away, the young master searched other aspects of Korean traditional martial arts for the next eight years from many masters, these are some of the masters he studied under.

1. master yong-sool choi: the young master visited many private martial arts schools and villages to study tribal martial arts or private martial arts. One of the influencial in this area is master yong-sool choi. From master choi he received further education in yu sool.

2. hai dong seu nim (the great monk of the east sea): in order to learn Buddhist martial arts, the young master visited many temples throughout the country. One of his great teachers was hai dong seu nim. From this great monk, he learned kwon sool, ki bub (ki exercise) and breathing techniques.

3. master tai-eui wang: the young master also visited old masters of royal court martial arts. One of his teachers of this art was master tai-eui wang. From master wang he learned yu kwon sool.

The knowledge inherited from his grandfather and learned from his later masters allowed him to establish the kuk sool won (Korean traditional martial arts association) in 1958. the next six years were devoted to the classification of techniques. There were 3,608 total techniques and these techniques were devided into 270 divisions. Again these 270 divisions are broken into three separate branches of kuk sool from which all techniques are derived. Theses branches are:

1. sado moosool ( tribal martial arts)
2. booldo moosool ( Buddhist martial arts)
3. kungjoong moosool ( royal court martial arts)

in 1975 the world kuk sool won association was established to promote Korean traditional martial arts throughout the world. Grandmaster in-huy suh was appointed as president and dr he-young kim as secretary general of the association.

The leaders of kuk sool, hoshindo and hapkido established a single organization in 1962 called the Korean kido association. In 1983, twenty one years later, in-hyuk suh was elected chairman of the association, and in-sun suh (seo) president. By inssuing official rank, the Korean kido association is now expanding its authority throughout the world as well as controlling growth of kuk sool, hoshindo and hapkido

[KSW_123]

I have heard that Dr. Kimm is writing a history book on Korean martial arts. I am afraid that he probably won't put it out until all the major first post war generation Korean martial artists are dead. If there is anyone who can shed light what the truth is of who learned what from who, it is most probably Dr. Kimm.

[JSun]

Well Kuk Sool Won is crap because your history is full of it.
I am sure you all are smarter than that.
I hope.

http://www.nascr.net/~jcburd/troll.gif

[Wolf]

that post is a little unclear. he's not trolling. he's telling us that we should ignore posts like that.

[Thomas]

Thanks KSN Matt, that sounds about like what I thought Dr. Kimm would write. Makes sense, sounds pretty accurate and doesn't get into a lot of detail about "how much" influence Choi Yong-sul may have had on KSW.

Granted In Sun Seo earned his 3rd dan (if I remember correctly) in Hapkido under Dojunim Choi prior to becoming chief instructor in KSW (and now is head of the Hanminjok Hapkido Association). Just guessing but I'd bet there was a lot of Hapkido influence coming from Choi and Seo (In Sun). That's why I'd be curious sometime to do a bit of training in KSW and see how much difference and similarity there is in the arts.

[JSun]

that post is a little unclear. he's not trolling. he's telling us that we should ignore posts like that.

Aaaahhh...gotcha. The format of the post made it a bit hard to decipher. I see that now.

[AZeitung]

That's why I'd be curious sometime to do a bit of training in KSW and see how much difference and similarity there is in the arts.
Here's a page with New York schools if you're interested. I don't know where they are in relation to you: http://www.kuksoolwon.com/Schools/schools01b.html

[Out-to-Lunch]

couldn't agree more.

all i need to know about the roots of ksw is covered in textbook 1. i don't need some jumped up karate practioner to tell me that all korean styles originated in japan so therefore ksw and it's history is flawed.

if that is the case then we may aswell all drive around in mercedes benz' as they are acclaimed to have produced the first motor car.

:)

Kinda funny being that Japanese are descendents of the Pu Yo clans of KOREAN :rolleyes:
-Josh

[Out-to-Lunch]

And another thing:

Kuk Sool is not just a load of hapkido techniques with a questionable past. In shotokan and other forms of karate, you don't get to use all the vast array of weaponary we have, you don't get our forms (which I think are some of the most beautiful forms in the martial arts as a whole), you don't get all our acrobatic jumping kicks etc etc

This is why we choose to study Kuk Sool and not shotokan, because we like all this stuff!

Sorry, rant over
Ive studied Karate, Okinawan, Korean (Tang Soo DO), and Japanese for 12 years now, and the forms are no where as nice as Kuk Sool, and it takes much longer to understand them...on top of that hardley anyone these days can explain the bunkai/bunsok of the karate kata...and did I mention that Funakoshi's Karate is now where close to the true Karate-do say 2. generations before him! Shotokan is kind of a joke amongst Okinawan stylists :)
--Josh

[kswflip]

Hello all this is my first post here be gentle
on history of ksw from a karate guy i think he should look close to some karate styles as 1 i know of was invented by a korean "koykishinki" sorry about the spelling of this i dont do karate! :woo:

[Wolf]

Kyokushin was indeed invented by a Korean. He took the japanese name of Mas Oyama, but I can't remember his korean name. This however, doesn't affect KSW's history. I would say there is little to no karate in the background of KSW. What japanese influence there is may come for Aiki-Jujutsu.

[MadMonk108]

Historically, there is no relationship between karate and Kuksool.

There is a relationship between KS and DRAJJ, but that's only one component of KS.

[AZeitung]

I don't see why there wouldn't be a Shotokan Karate influence via TKD. Also, I seem to remember that karate influenced the striking Hapkido.

[MadMonk108]

I don't see why there wouldn't be a Shotokan Karate influence via TKD.

Proof, please.

Also, I seem to remember that karate influenced the striking Hapkido.

Proof, please.

[AZeitung]

Proof, please.

Proof that TKD influenced Kuk Sool? In Hyuk Suh himself admits to having studied it (and he said he studied karate, too at the last seminar I was at, even if it was only to say "I've studied karate. I've studied TKD. Kuk Sool is better."). As for why would I think TKD might have influenced kuk sool? Because they're both Korean and some of the striking looks (very) similar. Some of the stances in Kuk Sool are karate-esque. It just doesn't seem like much of a stretch that there's a TKD influence on Kuk Sool. And I'm not claiming that I factually know that to be true - it just doesn't seem unreasonable?


Proof, please.
Proof that I seem to remember that? Could you clarify your statement, or actually read mine before asking for proof? How much do you know about the history of Hapkido, anyway?

[Out-to-Lunch]

I don't see why there wouldn't be a Shotokan Karate influence via TKD. Also, I seem to remember that karate influenced the striking Hapkido.
Shotokan was Tang Soo Do not Tae Kwon Do, modern Tae Kwon Do is nothings like shotokan except that it kicks and punches, many of the kicks are more Tae Kyon anyway. TKD is not a representation of Shotokan, the Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do, was the main one, and it to had alot of material from Moo Ye Dobo Tongji...
--Josh

[Wolf]

Shotokan was Tang Soo Do not Tae Kwon Do, modern Tae Kwon Do is nothings like shotokan except that it kicks and punches, many of the kicks are more Tae Kyon anyway. TKD is not a representation of Shotokan, the Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do, was the main one, and it to had alot of material from Moo Ye Dobo Tongji...
--Josh

Actually, Tae Kwon Do and shotokan are very, very similar. They have very similar forms, and striking is virtually identical (except for the high kicks).

[Out-to-Lunch]

Dear Jo Kyo Nim Paul,
I have studied TSD, TKD, and Shotokan, and the forms are not the same. They are in moo duk kwan and a few other kwans that were created in 1945 at the end of the japanese occupation, but Tae Keuk set is definatly not. It is hard to recognize mose of the forms, even though they claim similar titles above BB...
best regards,
--Josh

[Wolf]

I studied TKD as well (it's been so long that I forget which kwan), and have watched video of shotokan forms. Also, I train in the same room regularly with the WTF club here at the university. Their forms are (at least early level forms) are very much the same as I learned in the couple years I was in TKD. Another club here, Ogasawara-Ha Shorinji Ryu Karatedo, practices similar forms. Here's a video of this Japanese club doing what is almost identical to what I learned as the first form in TKD: http://www.uga.edu/karatedo/video/taikyoku.1.html. TKD is distinctly japanese in origin, and from what I've studied and seen of it, and what I've seen of shotokan the two are way too similar to not be related. However, I'm sure MadMonk will be on eventually. He and Thomas are our resident KMA experts and could probably answer this debate for us. If either of them tells me I'm wrong I'll accept it, but to this point my observation says otherwise.

[PopeCoyote]

Actually, Tae Kwon Do and shotokan are very, very similar. They have very similar forms, and striking is virtually identical (except for the high kicks).

Actually, I studied Shotokan and Ember studied TKD before we found Kuk Sool. One of the biggest things I saw , though, was the different styles of each art. Yes, they both did kicks and punches and forms, but Shotokan focused very much on staying low to the ground, getting the power into your technique from the supporting leg, and TKD focused on up-in-the-air acrobatics. The other major difference I saw was with regard to board breaking. Ember's TKD school had her break boards with _every_ test ( I believe the first two were hammerfist and axe kick). My Shotokan school, on the other hand, tended to take the Bruce Lee tactic with it: WHY? "Boards...Don't hit back"

[Out-to-Lunch]

I studied TKD as well (it's been so long that I forget which kwan), and have watched video of shotokan forms. Also, I train in the same room regularly with the WTF club here at the university. Their forms are (at least early level forms) are very much the same as I learned in the couple years I was in TKD. Another club here, Ogasawara-Ha Shorinji Ryu Karatedo, practices similar forms. Here's a video of this Japanese club doing what is almost identical to what I learned as the first form in TKD: http://www.uga.edu/karatedo/video/taikyoku.1.html. TKD is distinctly japanese in origin, and from what I've studied and seen of it, and what I've seen of shotokan the two are way too similar to not be related. However, I'm sure MadMonk will be on eventually. He and Thomas are our resident KMA experts and could probably answer this debate for us. If either of them tells me I'm wrong I'll accept it, but to this point my observation says otherwise.
Dear Jo Kyo Nim Paul,
It would appear we have a bit of a friendly dispute here. You are correct TKD does have Japanese origins...that is correct, without a doubt. However modern TKD, and all TKD has really been distinctly korean interpretation. Pope Coyote is very much correct about the differences. Taikyoku is similar but not to Tae Keuk Il Jang. Look at the kukiwon website and look at the forms, then look at a shotokan person do the same forms, they are not the same. The stance training is different, the strikes are different, and the kicks are definatly different. The similarity that exists today is that the higher level forms share some of the same names, but the korean counterpart, and may follow a similar foot work pattern, but they are very different in performance and the goals of training in them. TKD and Shotokan are mostly similar in that they both are striking arts...
Along with the prior similarities ;-)
--Josh

[AZeitung]

Yes, TKD has become different from Shotokan Karate. I don't recall anyone ever saying it was exactly the same. **However** when you have a martial art where the first form you learn is exactly the same as taikyoku ichi, but with some of the stepping altered slightly, you can't just brush off it's karate influences like they don't affect it at all (I took a few TKD classes, and have studied a little Shotokan and Shorei Ryu karate).

edit: Also, I own a copy of the Muye Dobo Tongji. There's very little empty handed fighting contained in it, and even less that looks like Tae Kwon Do. There are a few things that may or may not be inside kicks, but a lot of the empty handed techniques (in the one chapter devoted to them, if I remember correctly) are wrestling techniques.

[ember]

Similar and different. I actually spent several months in both TKD and Shotokan. I know that's not nearly long enough to get the true depth of them, but there's truth in all sides of the argument I've heard thus far.

The WTF TKD dojang I studied at began with three Basic Forms before beginning the Tae Geuk series. They're published here:

http://www.worldtaekwondo.com/forms/basic1.htm
http://www.worldtaekwondo.com/forms/basic2.htm
http://www.worldtaekwondo.com/forms/basic3.htm

The surface structure of the forms is VERY similar to the three forms I learned in Shotokan. Both in starting sorta like Dae Geup Hyung with punches to either side, in the shape the forms make on the ground, the combinations of kick-step-punch.

But as Brian / Coyote already pointed out, I was taught TKD with high walking stances, and Shotokan emphasized low, grounded stances.

I... got into trouble with an instructor at my TKD dojang, because I was trying to prepare for both TKD testing on Tuesday, and Shotokan testing on Saturday, and our apartment didn't really have the room to practice. (Clueless newbie me!)

I ended up talking with Grandmaster Rho that evening... he said something about TKD's emphasis on kicking, and karate's emphasis on hand strikes, and that the two would probably be a good combination. He wished me well on both tests, and I passed the TKD one.

[MadMonk108]

Oh god this makes my head hurt.

A couple of quick things here.

The majority of Kuksool striking comes not from Shotokan, TKD, or DSD, but from Shippal Gi, aka Korean kung fu, aka Kwonbup. The TKD influence upon Kuksool is virtually nil.

Taekwondo grew out of Dangsoodo and Kongsoodo, which were the Korean practices based on Japanese Shotokan, Shudokan, and Okinawan Shorin-ryu. While most modern Taekwondo use new forms, rather than the old Shorin-ryu forms, the techniques are still karate based, with the exception of the addition of acrobatic kicks, and of course, the evolution of Olympic sparring.

To break it down, TKD/DSD/KSD = Korean Karate

Kuksool = Daito-ryu AJJ plus Korean kung fu. I would not consider Shotokan a route art in Kuksool.

[MadMonk108]

edit: Also, I own a copy of the Muye Dobo Tongji. There's very little empty handed fighting contained in it, and even less that looks like Tae Kwon Do. There are a few things that may or may not be inside kicks, but a lot of the empty handed techniques (in the one chapter devoted to them, if I remember correctly) are wrestling techniques.

It's Kwonbup, Korean kung fu based off of Ki Ji Kwon, a Long Fist style related to Taizu Long Fist.

This would have more to do with the roots of Kuksool than TKD, which is where I believe this thread should be heading.

[MadMonk108]

And, finally, the uber-essay to end the TKD debate here, as I was told that this should be brought to a close to continue the discussion in a more Flaming Fan-waving fashion (hehe...)

Bear with me as some of this may seem a bit semantic.

Shotokan was Tang Soo Do not Tae Kwon Do

Incorrect.

Shotokan is a kind of Dangsoodo.

Or, more correctly, Shotokan is a kind of Kongsoodo.

Remember, Dangsoodo is the Korean pronounciation of the characters "唐手道". These are the Hanja used often to reference Karatedo of the Okinawan variety.

空手道, or Kongsoodo, also pronounced Karatedo in Japanese, is often used to reference Karatedo of the Japanese variety.

Dangsoodo and Kongsoodo are the same art, though each of a different flavor, reflecting Okinawan and Japanese culture. Thus, what I am saying is, there's Okinawan karate, and Japanese karate, but both are karate. They may practice different forms, or have various technical differences, but by enlarge, there is more similar than different.

松濤館 means Pine Wave Institute. This is pronounced Shotokan in Japanese. In Korean, it is pronounced Songdokwan.

The key to my point here rests in the last term, 館/kwan. This refers to a specific institution and curriculum of Kongsoodo.

The Songdokwan (Shotokan school) was the root of many different schools of Korean Karate, but there were not Korean Songdokwan schools. The Shotokan was not established in Korea. Rather, Koreans who had trained in Songdokwan began their own kwan, the beginnings of Korean karate. The 靑濤館, Chungdokwan, the Blue Wave Institute, is the perfect example of this. In Japanese, this would be pronounced Seitokan...

Ironically, it can also be pronounced Shotokan in Japanese.

Thus, Shotokan is not Dangsoodo or Taekwondo.

I would offer this summation for you.

The Okinawan expression of "karate" is referenced using the characters 唐手道, Dangsoodo, Tang Hand Way. 少林流, Shorin-ryu, or in Korean, Sorim-ryu, is one style of the Tang Hand Way.

The Japanese expression of "karate" is referenced using the characters 空手道, Kongsoodo, the Empty Hand Way. 松濤館, Shotokan, the Pine Wave Institute, or Songdokwan, is just one style of the Empty Hand Way.

Now we come to Taekwondo.

跆拳道, Taekwondo, of any variety, still bears a great deal more in common with Kongsoodo and Dangsoodo than difference. While new forms may have been created utilizing innovative kicking techniques, by and large the majority of techniques found in these forms are karate techniques. Taegyun, while commonly touted as having a great influence on Taekwondo, is actually regarded as having very little influence by most Korean martial scholars. Taekwondo's kicking techniques are based on modern Korean innovation within the realm of Korean karate concepts. Most Taegyun practitioners regard Taekwondo as Koreanized import art that has little to do with their own art. Thus, while there is much that differentiates Taekwondo from Japanese and Okinawan karate, there is more that makes it similar.

Thus, in keeping with the above summation:

The Korean expression of "karate" is referenced using the characters 跆拳道, Taekwondo, the Stomping Fist Way (the first character is often mistranslated, even by Koreans, as meaning to kick. It more properly means to stop or to smash with the foot.) 靑濤館, the Blue Wave Institute, is just one style of the Stomping Fist Way.

the Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do, was the main one, and it to had alot of material from Moo Ye Dobo Tongji..

Dangsoodo Moodukkwan was made up of Shorin-ryu forms which Hwang Kee learned from books (Shotokan or Shito-ryu) and training in Chungdokwan.

However, through his research of the Mooyaedobotongji's kwonbup chapter, Hwang Kee created the Chilsung and Yukro forms. He used these as the foundation for his new art, Soobakdo, an almagamation of his karate, Taiji, and Shaolin Long Fist studies.

Outside of this, the material in the Mooyaedobotongji has had no influence on Taekwondo, despite claims to the contrary.

[AirNick]

I really wish I didn't use shotokan as an example when I started this thread!

[psbn matt]

thanks madmonk, very informative. pretty much summed up what i had guessed about kuk sool just from observation of other styles. also found the stuff about the roots of tkd very interesting to.

[Grippereeno]

Am i the only one who is lovin JSun's picture of that troll ha ha ha....

[Wolf]

Thanks Monk (the Mad one :D)! I hope that answers the question of shotokan's (and other japanese art's) influence on TKD. Now let's see if this thread can get back to KSW's roots. :D

[Out-to-Lunch]

Madmonk,
thats a very good summary...
I could and am tempted to get into the kanji analysis and the reasons why TSD is not TKD...but this is a Kuk Sool forum ;-)
So I wont ;-)
Maybe another day another thread ;-)
You do have ALOT of good knowledge though, I see you do your research ;-) Either that or you are one of Hwang Hyung Chuls e-spies!!! LOL
--Josh

[MadMonk108]

I really wish I didn't use shotokan as an example when I started this thread!

I'm sorry. I hope I've killed that train of thought. Now hopefully we can get back to the topics at hand.

[MadMonk108]

I could and am tempted to get into the kanji analysis and the reasons why TSD is not TKD...but this is a Kuk Sool forum ;-)
So I wont ;-)
Maybe another day another thread ;-)

I'd love to see your attempt.

Start it in the the TKD or DSD forum.

In the end, it's all Korean Karate. A rose by any other name.

You do have ALOT of good knowledge though, I see you do your research ;-) Either that or you are one of Hwang Hyung Chuls e-spies!!! LOL

--Josh

Nope.

I'm Buddhist.

[MadMonk108]

So...Kuksool...

Here's my question.

We know that Suh Inhyuk studied Shippal Gi of some sort.

What kind?

Aside from the DRAJJ-derived material, we have a set of forms, armed and unarmed.

Where do the unarmed forms come from? They aren't the Long Fist based form found in the Kwonbup chapter of the Mooyaedobotongji.

The weapons of Kuksool by and large correspond with the weapons of the Mooyaedobotongji, yet the weapon forms of Kuksool are not the ones found in the manual.

Where do these forms come from?

Are they creations of Suh Inyuk based on his Shippal Gi studies?

[Wolf]

That's something I'm curious to learn too. My only problem is, I don't know where to begin.

[KSW_123]

I have a question for the history buffs out there. Did master Jung O Lee affect the curriculum of KS when he started in 1961?

[Wolf]

Where do the unarmed forms come from? They aren't the Long Fist based form found in the Kwonbup chapter of the Mooyaedobotongji.

The only one I've heard anything about is Guhm Moo Hyung (Blade Dance Form is what I think the translation is). This is supposed to be the sort of trademark form of KSW. The story I was given is that it has it's origins in the Royal court. At that time weaons were not allowed in the palace, so this form was used as a training tool because it has a number of motions that emulate the use of throwing knives. That's just what I've heard. Whether or not that's true is another story.

[Out-to-Lunch]

I'd love to see your attempt.

Start it in the the TKD or DSD forum.

In the end, it's all Korean Karate. A rose by any other name.



Nope.

I'm Buddhist.
Hello,
Thats alright, I am here to learn about Kuk Sool, that is why I have not so muched as looked at the other forums on MAP...if I wanted to argue wth a bunch of TKD guys I would do it at one of the other forums I am at. In a nutshell yes, they all are "Korean Karate"....That is primarily striking arts that utilize hyung, that were at one time very similar. But like I said for the sake of the headaches of the Kuk Sool members I will just not ;-)
Private emails are fine by me however...

I am curious about the Kuk Sool Hyung as well. I have read somewhere that he created them form his studies, but I cannot remember the source...
In mu do,
--Josh

[Out-to-Lunch]

The only one I've heard anything about is Guhm Moo Hyung (Blade Dance Form is what I think the translation is). This is supposed to be the sort of trademark form of KSW. The story I was given is that it has it's origins in the Royal court. At that time weaons were not allowed in the palace, so this form was used as a training tool because it has a number of motions that emulate the use of throwing knives. That's just what I've heard. Whether or not that's true is another story.
Yeppers thats what is says in Textbook Vol. 1
Oddly enough the Hwa Rang Do people have a Gum Moo Hyung, hence the Farang Mu Sul people do as well. I am not sure if its the same one or one of Joo Bangs creations, but thats a horse of another color...
--Josh

[MadMonk108]

So you wanna go head to head with me, my young Padawan...

Bring it, Josh.

Or should I say....

Chizi.

[Out-to-Lunch]

So you wanna go head to head with me, my young Padawan...

Bring it, Josh.

Or should I say....

Chizi.
AH HA!!!
I should have known, how could there be a forum this large, and none of the Emperors Minions!!!!! ;-)
I was starting to catch on too! ;-)
--Josh
ok so I have to drop the vader attitude LOL

[MadMonk108]

Yeppers thats what is says in Textbook Vol. 1
Oddly enough the Hwa Rang Do people have a Gum Moo Hyung, hence the Farang Mu Sul people do as well. I am not sure if its the same one or one of Joo Bangs creations, but thats a horse of another color...
--Josh

From what I've heard, it's the same.

My personal opinion of Hwa Rang Do is that the majority of it comes from Kuksool's early developmental stage, when the Lee Jobang was training with Suh Inhyuk.

There's too much identical to be otherwise.

[MadMonk108]

AH HA!!!
I should have known, how could there be a forum this large, and none of the Emperors Minions!!!!! ;-)
I was starting to catch on too! ;-)
--Josh
ok so I have to drop the vader attitude LOL

Hey hey hey, I am no one's minion.

Why do you think he calls me "Mad"?

[Out-to-Lunch]

From what I've heard, it's the same.

My personal opinion of Hwa Rang Do is that the majority of it comes from Kuksool's early developmental stage, when the Lee Jobang was training with Suh Inhyuk.

There's too much identical to be otherwise.
Yes Indeed...
This is relevent from another thread on another forum I posted a couple days ago
I dont know if you have ever had a chance to look at this picture from Bob Duggans website (The Society of Hwarang) it is of Joo Bang Lee's first dojang (1964-1967)...
http://www.hwarang.org/images/joobang04.gif
Note the Kuk Sool Won Logo (Flag) on the wall in the back, the KSW uniforms, and the KSW Logos on the uniforms.
And enlarged view http://www.hwarang.org/images/banner009.jpg
Also there is this http://www.hwarang.org/images/banner010.jpg
And there is the photo of Joo Bang Lee hanging in the back http://www.hwarang.org/images/photo05.jpg
On the front row fram left to right: Sang Duk An, JOO SANG LEE, Duk Kyu Hwang, In the center is JI HAN JAE, Kwang Shik Myong, JOO BANG LEE, and Yu Chan Kim.
Note the positions of Joo Sang, and Joo Bang Lee in relation to the other Masters...
By 1970 they had the new HRD Logo http://www.hwarang.org/images/joobang12.gif but yet a Kuk Sool Logo still hangs beneath the window on the left, in between the kanji (hanja) http://www.hwarang.org/images/banner010.jpg
So this to me would mean that Kuk Sa Nim already had many dojang back then, and was doing somthing right. He has had a big influence on the world of KMA today.

[Out-to-Lunch]

Hey hey hey, I am no one's minion.

Why do you think he calls me "Mad"?
Eh, good point :D

[AZeitung]

The weapons of Kuksool by and large correspond with the weapons of the Mooyaedobotongji, yet the weapon forms of Kuksool are not the ones found in the manual.

Where do these forms come from?

Are they creations of Suh Inyuk based on his Shippal Gi studies?
That would be my guess. However, there's at least one weapons form from the Muye Dobo Tongji. I learned a jang bong form from master Jack Harvey (which I've pretty much forgotten by now) that he has been trying to reconstruct from that book for years. The problem is, translating old Korean can be more difficult than you'd think, and the manual isn't all that clear. He even had a hard time figuring out exactly how long the staffs should be (they got shorter every year, I heard). The form changes slightly every year as he tries to come up with a more accurate interpretation of what's in the book.

I don't think you'll see too much that's really from the Muye Dobo Tongji, simply because it's so hard to actually figure out what it's really in it.

[ember]

Kuksool = Daito-ryu AJJ plus Korean kung fu. I would not consider Shotokan a route art in Kuksool.

Good, I never meant to imply it was. There is VERY little in the KSW forms resembling what I learned in either TKD or Shotokan.

[MadMonk108]

That would be my guess. However, there's at least one weapons form from the Muye Dobo Tongji. I learned a jang bong form from master Jack Harvey (which I've pretty much forgotten by now) that he has been trying to reconstruct from that book for years. The problem is, translating old Korean can be more difficult than you'd think, and the manual isn't all that clear. He even had a hard time figuring out exactly how long the staffs should be (they got shorter every year, I heard). The form changes slightly every year as he tries to come up with a more accurate interpretation of what's in the book.

I don't think you'll see too much that's really from the Muye Dobo Tongji, simply because it's so hard to actually figure out what it's really in it.

The Mooyaedobotongji isn't writtin in Korean.

It's in Chinese.

Also, there are groups in Korea that practice these forms.

[AZeitung]

Really? I could have sworn it was in Korean. I know it was the compilation of Chinese manuals, but I assumed they were translated into Korean. What I have is an English translation.

In any event, I'm pretty sure there were some problems with the translation - or at least, that's what one of the blackbelts at my old club told me. And I saw first hand the form change slightly from year to year, as master Harvey reinterpreted the manual. I never actually saw the book that Master Harvey was translating from but since 1) there aren't any other known manuals of that type from Korea, 2) the description of the book given to me by someone else sounded like the MDT, and 3) some of the forms in my copy look like they might possibly be the long staff form I learned, I'm assuming that's what he was reconstructing it from.

Now, when you say there are still people who practice forms in the book, are you talking about reconstructions of the forms? Are all the forms practiced? Are you sure they're exactly the same as the ones in the book? The idea that some groups may have picked up the Muye Dobo Tongji, tried to reconstruct the forms, then started practicing them wouldn't surprise me a bit. The idea that there are actually groups that learned the forms at the time the book was written and have continued to practice them into the present sounds beyond suspicious to me. And there is a big difference between the two scenarios - in the second, we would know the way the forms are being practiced is correct. In the first, it's somebody's idea of what the forms might have been like based on the manual.

[ember]

By 1970 they had the new HRD Logo http://www.hwarang.org/images/joobang12.gif but yet a Kuk Sool Logo still hangs beneath the window on the left, in between the kanji (hanja) http://www.hwarang.org/images/banner010.jpg
So this to me would mean that Kuk Sa Nim already had many dojang back then, and was doing somthing right. He has had a big influence on the world of KMA today.

When we were in Korea last October, Brian & I noticed signs for some other, non-Kuk Sool martial art that used the same scalloped pentagon with a fist in the middle. There were very subtle variations from the KSW logo, but I don't recall exactly what they were. And I don't think I have a picture of it anywhere.

[Out-to-Lunch]

When we were in Korea last October, Brian & I noticed signs for some other, non-Kuk Sool martial art that used the same scalloped pentagon with a fist in the middle. There were very subtle variations from the KSW logo, but I don't recall exactly what they were. And I don't think I have a picture of it anywhere.
Yes, but keep in mind, Joo Bang Lee has stated that he studied palm striking under Kuk Sa Nim...its not like he claimed no contact. Also the rose of sharon logo is the exact same as KSW was using back then, fist, swords, banner and dan bong ;-) No difference ;-)
--Josh

[psbn matt]

a note about the logo.
i found out recently what the Symbolism behind the logo is.

the outside is a styilized version of the rose of sharon, the national flower of korea
the fist and dan bong represnt, the tribal and buddhist martial arts
and the twin swords represent the royal court martial arts.

[coc716]

Yes, but keep in mind, Joo Bang Lee has stated that he studied palm striking under Kuk Sa Nim...its not like he claimed no contact.

I don't know about that.

In an article from Black Belt Magazine, November 2000 issue, there is an interview with Joo-bang Lee. In the interview, Lee states:


BB: An article posted on the Internet reported that you had studied open-hand
strike techniques with the founder of kuk sool, Suh In-hyuk. If you did study with
Suh, it would indicate that hwa rang do descended from kuk sool.

LEE: As I mentioned before, Ji Han-jae opened his school in 1959, I opened mine in
1960 and Kim Mu-hong opened his in 1961. Even though we all trained under Master
Choi in the 1950’s, I never saw them during this time because I was taking private
lessons from Master Choi. When Kim Mu-hong went into the military in 1962, his
father hired some other masters to teach at his school. I taught day classes at Kim’s
school for a couple of months, and it was then that I met Suh, Kim Woo-tak, Lee Han-
chul and Kim Mu-jin. Although we were already masters by that time and had trained in
different traditions - Kim Mu- hong’s background was in Master Choi’s yu sool and
Suh’s background was yu sool and ship pal gi (Korean kung fu) - a bond of friendship
developed between us. It was then that I founded the Han Kuk Mu Sool Hyup Hoi
(abbreviated as Kuk Sool Hoi) with these other masters. Then Woo Kim opened his
school in Seoul in 1962, and Suh In-hyuk also opened his first school in Pusan with two
other friends.

BB: So that theory is untrue?

LEE: As far as theses rumors are concerned, an ignorant historian said I went to Pusan
to learn hand-striking techniques from Suh. However, [this allegation makes no sense in
terms of] the time frame in which we opened our schools and the techniques I already
knew. I was already a master of Hwarang combat skills and yu sool. If I opened my
school in 1960 in Seoul, why would I need to go down to Pusan to learn palm strikes
five years later? (laughing) Does that make sense? Some ill-informed taekwondo
practitioners have also circulated rumors that I learned tang soo do. Anyone can start
these kinds of rumors, and I would rather not comment on them. However, the truth is
the truth, and hwa rang do is hwa rang do from what I learned from my master, Su-Ahm
Dosa.


So, take that for what it's worth.

[Out-to-Lunch]

I don't know about that.

In an article from Black Belt Magazine, November 2000 issue, there is an interview with Joo-bang Lee. In the interview, Lee states:



So, take that for what it's worth.

There will probably be no definitive answer to this. Lee is not the most reliable Mu Do historian, I understand he is famous for fabricating alot.
I think it was Dr. He-young Kimm who wrote that in one of his books...I consider him probably the foremost historian on Korean Martial Arts, might be somthing to check into...
--Josh

[Thomas]

Does anyone know how much Kuk Sool Hapkido and Kuk Sool Won (R) differ?

[KSW_KJN]

Does anyone know how much Kuk Sool Hapkido and Kuk Sool Won (R) differ?

Thomas,
Kuk Sool Hapkido is basically the same. It's run by pretty much the same masters that split with Seo, In Sun. There are some slight modifications to a couple of the weapons forms, but the training is essentially the same. There are pretty much in line with WKSA except for the new belts (yellow stripe, etc), including the split of youth BB vs adult BB. There are slight uniform modifications as well. Including the black pants with Hapkido printed down the leg.

[Choiyoungwoo]

Thomas,
Kuk Sool Hapkido is basically the same. It's run by pretty much the same masters that split with Seo, In Sun. There are some slight modifications to a couple of the weapons forms, but the training is essentially the same. There are pretty much in line with WKSA except for the new belts (yellow stripe, etc), including the split of youth BB vs adult BB. There are slight uniform modifications as well. Including the black pants with Hapkido printed down the leg.

these changes are needed Would you please clarify a few things

which KSHKD masters used to be WKSA?

what is the youth bb requirements ?

What do you mean by the yellow stripe?

[KSW_KJN]

these changes are needed Would you please clarify a few things

which KSHKD masters used to be WKSA?

what is the youth bb requirements ?

What do you mean by the yellow stripe?

The KSHKD masters are pretty much only in Korea and would not be recognized outside of the few people who knew them in Korea and some of the older WKSA masters, aside from myself and two others from California. The youth BB requirements are the same as in WKSA. I believe I saw them on Satori's wiki page? When I refer to things like the yellow stripe, it is the "new belts" introduced into WKSA. i.e. yellow stripe belt, blue stripe belt, etc. Those are currently not incorporated into the KSHKD curriculum.

[Choiyoungwoo]

The KSHKD masters are pretty much only in Korea and would not be recognized outside of the few people who knew them in Korea and some of the older WKSA masters, aside from myself and two others from California. The youth BB requirements are the same as in WKSA. I believe I saw them on Satori's wiki page? When I refer to things like the yellow stripe, it is the "new belts" introduced into WKSA. i.e. yellow stripe belt, blue stripe belt, etc. Those are currently not incorporated into the KSHKD curriculum.

Thanks, that's kinda what I thought

[Thomas]

Thomas,
Kuk Sool Hapkido is basically the same. It's run by pretty much the same masters that split with Seo, In Sun. There are some slight modifications to a couple of the weapons forms, but the training is essentially the same. There are pretty much in line with WKSA except for the new belts (yellow stripe, etc), including the split of youth BB vs adult BB. There are slight uniform modifications as well. Including the black pants with Hapkido printed down the leg.
Wow - thanks for the reply. That fits pretty well with my "general " perceptions of what I've seen for the recent years.

Let me rephrase my question though. I was looking to see how Kuk Sool Hapkido (or "Kuk Sool Kwan Hapkido") that was taught in Korea before the name "Kuk Sool Won (R) " was adopted. Before the name "Kuk Sool Won" was adopted, did GM In Hyuk Suh and GM In Sun Seo teach "Hapkido" or was "Kuk Sool Hapkido" already the combination of native arts and chinese traditions that would come to be KSW?

How big an influence was Hapkido and Choi Yong-sool Dojunim to the art of KSW? Prior to formalizing the art, how much Hapkido did the brothers do and how much is left in the system?

[SatoriTheLush]

My understanding is that Kim Woo Tak's Kuk Sool Kwan of Hapkido followed in the Choi tradition, while WKSA Kuk Sool Won and later Kidohae Kuk Sool Hapkido were a different animal entirely. The first was a heavily Japanese influenced style, while the latter two were strictly Korean (though not without Chinese influence - see Ship Pal Gi).

There is a lot of controversy regarding the histories of Hapkido and Kuk Sool. People like Lee, with his Hwarang Do, further muddy the waters with their take on the events. I doubt any of us here in the West will ever really know the truth. Fortunately, we don't need to in order to practice our art.

[swntzu]

Fortunately, we don't need to in order to practice our art.

I think this line summarises the view of most people within the org.

[Thomas]

My understanding is that Kim Woo Tak's Kuk Sool Kwan of Hapkido followed in the Choi tradition, while WKSA Kuk Sool Won and later Kidohae Kuk Sool Hapkido were a different animal entirely. The first was a heavily Japanese influenced style, while the latter two were strictly Korean (though not without Chinese influence - see Ship Pal Gi).

I think GM Kim Woo Tak's Kuk Sool Kwan is still a member of the Korea Hapkido Federation (KHF).

Did Kim Woo Tak trained directly under Choi Yong-sool Dojunim and what did he contribute to the early days of Kuk Sool Won? Is there any relation?

[KSW_KJN]

As a general level of understanding, Kuk Sool Won Hap Ki Do and Kuk Sool Won are essentially the same entity. We're not talking about any derivatives since, but Kuk Sool Won Hap Ki Do was the predecessor of what became Kuk Sool Won in the U.S. GM In Hyuk Suh is/was GM of both organizations. As far as who trained under who, the water is pretty muddy and only those there can clear it up. Fortunately or unfortunately, depending on your view, I was not there. :D

[hapk1do]

And another thing:

Kuk Sool is not just a load of hapkido techniques with a questionable past. In shotokan and other forms of karate, you don't get to use all the vast array of weaponary we have, you don't get our forms (which I think are some of the most beautiful forms in the martial arts as a whole), you don't get all our acrobatic jumping kicks etc etc

This is why we choose to study Kuk Sool and not shotokan, because we like all this stuff!

Sorry, rant over

Oh and I would just like to add to this, in 80's terms, by saying that Bu Chae Sul is totally freakin RAD! :eek:

[Legless_Marine]

In my opinion KSW doesn't have a style. We do not have the rigidity of some martial arts we adapt our style to overcome what stands before us.

That strikes me as an odd thing to say about one of the most standardized styles in modern MA.

[Fu_Ling_Yoo]

That strikes me as an odd thing to say about one of the most standardized styles in modern MA.

I think what he meant was that KS is an adaptive MA. Meaning if you can't kick high for some reason you don't have to, its not a requirement. So It can be done with any type of body style(Tall, Short, Skinny, Round, Young, Old, or lol even pregnant).

[hapk1do]

I think GM Kim Woo Tak's Kuk Sool Kwan is still a member of the Korea Hapkido Federation (KHF).

Did Kim Woo Tak trained directly under Choi Yong-sool Dojunim and what did he contribute to the early days of Kuk Sool Won? Is there any relation?

Thomas,

If I'm not mistaken, Tak trained under Kim Moo Hong, who trained under Choi DJN. Kim Moo Hong apparently also trained the Lee brothers. Tak opened a school called the Kuk Sool Kwan, which is rumored to have employed the Suh/Seo brothers... The latter, however, is not something that is NOT set in stone. :D

[hapk1do]

The latter, however, is not something that is NOT set in stone. :D

ERR - take out one of those NOTs... Something that is NOT set in stone, apparently.