Shotokan

[Elitex]

What are other peoples views on the shotokan style of karate




http://www.olliebob.co.nr

[xubis]

IMO It rocks :D But I still think I need something else in my aresnal, but what it does teach, it teaches well.

[Andrew Green]

That sort of question needs to involve a goal.

For me and my interests it has no value.

For others it is perfect.

[YODA]

My thoughts exactly Andrew.

[tai-gip]

No goal except to get a respons which you both gave good stuff

Dont know enough about the style in particular but i think karate as a whole has lost a lot of what it once was

[YODA]

Sure it has - maybe that's not all bad?

[Knight_Errant]

Well.
It does teach you how to punch hard and works on standup fighting skills like distancing to an advanced level (or should do).
No real groundfighting, weapons or grappling.
For self defence purposes, probably better than some and no worse than most.
There are a lot of substandard dojos from what I've seen, heard and read, but also some very good ones.
I'd probably still go to a shoto dojo. If there was nothing including more groundfighting and grappling (which from what little I've tried in warmups, etc. I find I enjoy) nearer.

[Adam]

I'm with Andrew and Yoda on this one. Doesn't suit my needs.

[gingerninja]

I've said it before Shotokan is the MacDonalds of Karate. Numerous styles of karate have a greater breadth of knowledge with regards to non-striking techniques - take your pick Wado, Isshin (no high kicks), Shorin, Matsubayashi, Goju, Motobu, Uechi, etc....

Even traditional Shuri-te which Shotokan (and Wado) was originally based has a broader technique base. Funakoshi's sons have alot to answer to!!

[Freeform]

Bill, we've been here before and we'll be here again I'll wager.

It's all dependant on the Instructor. My Shotokan Sensei had a great breadth of knowledge of Bunkai and would teach applications (throws, locks, etc), okay they weren't as skilled in these areas as my Tai Jitsu, Judo or Aikido Instructors but then their kicking is nowhere near his!

Its interesting that you bring up Wado as superior to Shotokan in terms of 'non-striking' techniques, because in my experience in our area Wado is solely a sports orientated style.

Anyway, going off topic here and my solar plexus is anticipating a 'Gyak from Hell' off of Bill in the near future! ;)

Col

[Tosh]

Originally posted by Freeform

my solar plexus is anticipating a 'Gyak from Hell' off of Bill in the near future! ;)



Hey!! Where do I buy tickets for that???? :D

I'll be ref, you could trade off techniques on each other like drinking game!!!

That would RAWK! It would beat those nerdy card games played at uni!! Imagine it....

"I attack with +1 flying fist of judah!" :D :D :D

[Freeform]

Ah, but we'll have to use only 'non-striking' techniques! :D

Heh heh heh, now where'd I leave me Judo Gi! ;)

Col

[gingerninja]

I've told you before Col I AIN'T YOUR PRISON B@TCH :D

Well comes back to you instructors want, with regards to following thier respected styles pro forma and your federation's trophy ego trip (SKF are muddafuddas).

It all reminds of the story where Funakoshi had his ar*e handed to him on a plate by on 2nd Dan Judoka.........

[Freeform]

Haven't heard that one Bill, care to enlighten us.

Col

p.s Ok Bill, you can have your soap back ;)

[Em-em]

I still think of Karate as a whole. Whatever style is accepted as long as our intentions are pure. When I started training, I only saw karate as karate. It's like being in a family with a lot of cousins and siblings.

[Em-em]

I still think of Karate as a whole. Whatever style is accepted as long as our intentions are pure. When I started training, I only saw karate as karate. It's like being in a family with a lot of cousins and siblings.

[Knight_Errant]

*sings* somebody's-pressed-the-butt-on twi-ice! :D

[Em-em]

:) I wonder who could it be...

[Em-em]

Question: Was RYU a student of Shotokan?

[Freeform]

Ryu generally means school. If your thinking what I think your thinking then take it to the video games section...............

Col

[Em-em]

You're thinking what I'm thinking. Unfortunately I don't play video games that's why I'm asking.

[Freeform]

Neither do I, I think its same to assume that he practiced some non-existant style where they can control their bodily gases though ;)

Col

[Adam]

Speaking as a street fighter enthusiast, YES, Ryu and Ken used shotokan. Only reason for me to train in shotokan would be to learn how to throw hadoukens at people. :)

[Saz]

Adam is indeed correct, Ryu and Ken studied Shotokan in the StreetFighter series (much to my disappointment)

:D

[Freeform]

Didn't look like shotokan. When do we learn to make fireballs?

Col

[xubis]

I can already make hadokens.. really really big ones! It is all in the movment of the wrist.. bring it back to wards the body in a cup shape with the other wrist, then fling it out towards your opponent in a flower shape.. whilst screaming HADOKEN!

[47Ronin]

you know its funny how traditional Karate makes fun tkd and the same back but please dont drag funakoshi into it we dont do it to you.

[Saz]

Erm....

Who mentioned TKD?
Who mentioned Funakoshi?

:confused:

[47Ronin]

It all reminds of the story where Funakoshi had his ar*e handed to him on a plate by on 2nd Dan Judoka.........
gingerninja

i just mentioned tkd because it seems the same people who dont like traditional Karate are usually involved in a similar style and i know most traditionalists or fullcontact fighters make fun of tkd.

[Chris J.]

Hello,
Before formulating an opinion on Shoto-Kan, one should first spar someone who is good at it. ;)

It is hard training and that breeds tough people who are in excellent condition. It has been said that a man who practices lust one technique for a year can parctically kill you with it; this is true, but obviously there is more.

Shoto-Kan was once similar to other Okinawan systems when it initially was brought to Japan. At that time it had been called Tote-Jitsu. Funakoshi published a book immediately, but 2 years later published another depicting a completely modified system. It changed much more over the years. That style was intended originally for school children to use, in order to prepare them for their mandatory 2 year stint in the Japanese military.

I would personally look to the older styles for more information that has been less modified.

-Chris J.

[47Ronin]

yeah i agree with chris here.
Shotokan is a great style like Uechi but everyone picks on it.
poor us. haha

[Saz]

Sorry Ronin, I must have missed that bit :D

Shotokan does come in for a lot of flak. Some of its deserved, some of it isn't. Unfortunately people tend to see karate as one whole style, and thus, other styles of karate get flak too. Personally I think to train to a high level in any art takes a lot of dedication and spirit, so I won't criticise anyone who does.

But Shotokan is the style everyone loves to hate :D

[xubis]

Originally posted by Kyokushin_girl
But Shotokan is the style everyone loves to hate :D
But why?

[Saz]

Probably because, as its the most practised art (I think?) it attracts McDojo's, semi qualified instructors and other bad things. Hence people go to one Shotokan class thats run by a monkey in a Gi, and say Shotokan and every other karate in the world is bad.

[xubis]

Yeah, my classes are not like that, my teacher is a good teacher thank fully, I was a little wary at starting shotokan, but I love it.

[Chris J.]

Hello,
People like Shoto-Kan bashing because they feel that the style is simplistic and has been modified greatly. They dislike the Japanization of the old Okinawan arts. They can not understand fighting out of a front stance.

I can agree that some of this is true and yet still evaluate the style for what it is. I believe I understand why Funakoshi felt it necessary to make the changes that he did; today it is simply a matter of what you want to train, and what is available to you.

For me the older systems are much more interesting and effective outside the ring. You have to be very strong to make front stance work sparring; it is not even close to natural nor is it anatomically correct. But stances similar to this work very well in actual fighting application if used in a transitional way. The older grappling applications that were a part of the old Okinawan Kempo from which the modern styles came are interesting to me, and they are not found in Shoto-Kan versions of the katas unless one reverse engineers them to contain this information again; obviously this can indeed be done. For me it makes more sense to go back to the origin though.

-Chris J.

[Sweeet]

Originally posted by Andrew Green
That sort of question needs to involve a goal.

For me and my interests it has no value.

For others it is perfect.

Any sort of value question needs to be qualified with an objective. What is the value of the car? If you can't sell it and don't want to go anywhere - nothing.

What is the value of Shotokan in terms of teaching Self Defense? Limited.

For others, it is perfect.

IMO.

[Chris J.]

Hello,
Funakoshi started the style after being sent to Japan as a sort of "Karate ambassador", even though at that time the term Karate had not come into use. There were probably three important reasons why he was sent. First, as a school teacher of some education, he spoke excellent Japanese. This was not common among Okinawans of the time, who had their own dialect (still do). Second, Funakoshi was somewhat of a diplomat, and understood the Japanese needs very well; he was willing to adapt what he taught to their specific desires and needs. and third, he had only a very limited exposure to a modern interpretation of Te. Although he cites Azato as an instructor, others have written that while Azato was a friend of Itosu and was sometimes present when Funakoshi trained with him, Azato mostly just watched silently as Itosu had Funakoshi repeat katas over and over.
Funakoshi learned a handful of katas, with his own resolution to work just one kata for years before learning another. What he took with him to Japan makes sense when you look at how many years he worked under Itosu.
After setting up in Tokyo, modifying his art to become combative exercise, and writing books documenting it, Funakoshi (AKA 'Shoto') developed a strong following in the school systems around Tokyo. Since foreigners were rare, and almost always went to Tokyo, Funakoshi's style became widely known long before any other style of Karate ever did. The style became known as Shoto-Kan (house of Shoto).
No need to go bashing Shoto-Kan, it is exactly what it is, nothing more, nothing less.

-Chris J.

[shotokanwarrior]

Yay, I'm a Shotokanista myself, as my name makes obvious. Finally, I can discuss something without having to talk pure hypothesis!

Metaphorically, Shotokan is like a glass bottle filled with mercury. The early stuff, bunkai, kihon etc, is pretty much useless because of its rigidity, but the 'freestyle' aspect I have found is very good, the more senior Shotokanistas make impressive fighters despite all the style's faults.

[Anth]

Shotokanwarrior - are you enjoying resurrecting threads that have been dead since before I got here? The thread-starter hasnt been here since December 03!

[Stick]

Shotokan's underlying tenets can translate well to self defence with the right training. I was never taught shotokan as a Budo, it was always a fighting art and we're influanced by kyokushin kumite. Traditional (1950's) shotokan is another story, my sensei was from Scotland, he was a brawler of sorts before and after karate and this influanced his style of teaching.

peace

[TheMightyMcClaw]

Well.
It does teach you how to punch hard and works on standup fighting skills like distancing to an advanced level (or should do).
No real groundfighting, weapons or grappling.
For self defence purposes, probably better than some and no worse than most.
There are a lot of substandard dojos from what I've seen, heard and read, but also some very good ones.
I'd probably still go to a shoto dojo. If there was nothing including more groundfighting and grappling (which from what little I've tried in warmups, etc. I find I enjoy) nearer.

There's plenty of grappling in Shotokan, it's just not as emphasized as the striking in most dojo. Just look at the bunkai to any Heian kata; it's chock-full of grappling techniques. But I agree that the grappling aspects of it deserve for emphasis.
As for weapon.... I suppose you have to go to Kobudo for that.

[CobraMaximus]

Very traditional style but some instructors take it a bit too far

[Chruffin]

A style that prides itself on its tradition - Arguably its greatest strength and greatest weakness.

Shotokan achieves what it sets out to accomplish very effectively, but I've found that its emphasis on tradition stifles any chances it has of evolving. For example, I've trained at my Shotokan class for a year and a half now and I've only ever sparred twice.

[b19vny]

The proper way of training should be kihon (to drill the basics - learn the mechanics), then kata (to use basics in pre-arranged patterns and to practice 'special moves') and kumite - either pre-arranged to practice kata bunkai or free - to develop fighting spirit.

If you are not doing all of these regularly then you aren't doing anything constructive - except perhaps a bit of cardio.

Because of this type of attitude amongst instructors I now find myself making a 60-mile round-trip to train 'properly' twice a week and 120 miles to train in Ryukyu Kobobujutsu. There is good training out there but you have to be prepared to find it.

p.s. I can see a Go Kan Ryu club from my house but would rather stick rusty nails in to my knees than go there . . . but that's a whole new can of worms.

[shotokanwarrior]

A style that prides itself on its tradition - Arguably its greatest strength and greatest weakness.

Shotokan achieves what it sets out to accomplish very effectively, but I've found that its emphasis on tradition stifles any chances it has of evolving. For example, I've trained at my Shotokan class for a year and a half now and I've only ever sparred twice.

I agree with this. Shotokan could be a lot better than it is. It's asphyxiated by illogical traditions. Like blocking from the ear (shuto) when no way are you going to do that in real life.

[Kosokun]

I agree with this. Shotokan could be a lot better than it is. It's asphyxiated by illogical traditions. Like blocking from the ear (shuto) when no way are you going to do that in real life.


Any of you guys ever see footage from the finals of the Shoto Cup? Are there people in the finals of these events who executes their technique in kumite just like they do in kihon? Are these guys not doing shotokan?

Rob

[Stick]

Any of you guys ever see footage from the finals of the Shoto Cup? Are there people in the finals of these events who executes their technique in kumite just like they do in kihon? Are these guys not doing shotokan?

Rob

:) Good point. I've seen some shotokan karateka get away with doing shotokan kihon waza in kumite, but very few, I also think this happens more often in shotokan specific kumite.

[Chruffin]

Any of you guys ever see footage from the finals of the Shoto Cup? Are there people in the finals of these events who executes their technique in kumite just like they do in kihon? Are these guys not doing shotokan?

Rob

I agree, with you on that Rob, very rarely do Shotokan students actually apply Shotokan kihon to their kumite. Which leads to the question, why do they train what they do in their kihon? If it's not being applied then what's the point training it?

I'm not taking shots at the style now, I'm genuinely curious and willing to learn if anyone can give me a decent answer...

[Kosokun]

I'm not taking shots at the style now, I'm genuinely curious and willing to learn if anyone can give me a decent answer...

I've been fortunate to be able to spend some good time with some of the seniors of various styles, including shotokan, and what theyll tell you is that fundamentals are one thing, application as in kumite is another.

This isn't unusual in sport, either. When I was a kid, I had a basketball coach who was a collegiate and professional player for a while. Coach Williams would insist on us performing the chest pass and bounce pass in a particular way. He'd also insist on having us practice our lay up in a particular way. Having watched a ton of professional and olympic basketball, I can honestly say that I've never seen anyone do those passes in the manner in which Coach Williams had us do them. However, I can see the passes that I've observed in the pros and the olympics to be extensions of the fundamentals that Coach Williams taught us.

Similarly, I can see the extension of the fundamentals of karate (oi zuki, gyaku zuki, etc, ) in kumite, even at the international level (WKF). The fundamentals teach many important lessons about power generation, etc. The question really is why so few connect the dots between fundamental techniques and the applied techniques, and why one doesn't reduce the time on the fundamentals as they advance.

Rob

[shotokanwarrior]

If it's not being applied then what's the point training it?

I know you are not taking shots at my style, I have very frequently wondered this myself. I think it's because there is an unexplained but powerful emphasis on tradition for the sake of tradition...I don't know where to go from there. It's like the same reason people play/sing hymns in the church and not Metallica/Ministry/Cradle of Filth. There's nothing wrong with it and you could do it if you wanted to, but no one will because something is considered right even when there's no logic behind it.

[Timmy Boy]

Question for karateka: when you adapt the techniques for kumite, are you actually taught how to do it and why or do you simply sacrifice technique for speed (tang sou dao style)?

[Chruffin]

Question for karateka: when you adapt the techniques for kumite, are you actually taught how to do it and why or do you simply sacrifice technique for speed (tang sou dao style)?

My Wado club is Sport Karate so we are taught kumite techniques as our kihon alongside more traditional techniques (eg. we train in a more kick boxing style stance and our blocks are taken straight from our guard rather than from the ear or waist).

My Shoto club tends to let us develop our own kumite techniques, we adapt them ourselves from the more traditional kihon we train.

Does that answer ya question? :)

[Timmy Boy]

My Wado club is Sport Karate so we are taught kumite techniques as our kihon alongside more traditional techniques (eg. we train in a more kick boxing style stance and our blocks are taken straight from our guard rather than from the ear or waist).

My Shoto club tends to let us develop our own kumite techniques, we adapt them ourselves from the more traditional kihon we train.

Does that answer ya question? :)

Well, kind of. What I mean is, in all of these clubs that do things like punching from the hip and always use the forward stance in kihon and one/three step sparring (like my old TSD club), are you taught specifically how to adapt techniques for sparring?

[Kosokun]

Well, kind of. What I mean is, in all of these clubs that do things like punching from the hip and always use the forward stance in kihon and one/three step sparring (like my old TSD club), are you taught specifically how to adapt techniques for sparring?

Depends on the instructor. Some do, many don't.

Rob

[Scaramouch]

I think there is a very important point in this thread that also relates to another current thread "Why do we keep our hands out" -

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5571

Many karate styles incl Shotokan have a set of kihon or basics which are meant to develop power, muscle memory and strength - but they are not what an experienced karate-ka would use in kumite or self-defence. Many ill informed people then highlight these basic techniques and (low) stances as reason why this or that style of karate would not be effective for MMA or the street or whatever.

The arguement could be, why practise basic techniques that you do not end up using? Well the same could be said of most physical activities. When you do a physical activity that requires both conditioning and dexterity then there is usually a set of drills that have been designed as training exercises to help develop these skills. I am sure you can think of your own examples but the best I can come up with, is swimming(?). When you learn to swim you are not literally thrown in the deep-end and expected to be able to perform freestyle like Ian Thorpe or Michael Phelps. As a start, you learn to swim with doggy paddle and various drills with floats etc. etc. and slowly over time progress to the more complex strokes.

If we take the view that it would actually be better for you to forget doggy paddle and the basic drills and instead try and copy Micheal Phelps then fair enough you might manage to just about learn to swim but you would probably end up swallowing alot of water as well as developing some bad habits which would be harder to unlearn in the long term.

Sorry for the bad comparison but getting back to the point - my karate basics, although I would never use them now, have provided me with an excellent base from which to develop my MA skills in both the striking and grappling arts I do now.

[Kosokun]

Sorry for the bad comparison but getting back to the point - my karate basics, although I would never use them now, have provided me with an excellent base from which to develop my MA skills in both the striking and grappling arts I do now.


I thought it was an apt analogy and great example. Great post. Bravo.

Rob

[shotokanwarrior]

Question for karateka: when you adapt the techniques for kumite, are you actually taught how to do it and why or do you simply sacrifice technique for speed (tang sou dao style)?

Urgh, no. We still learn how to develop power. We still turn the hip in the Gyaku zuki and all the kicks, we still keep the hand close to the side of the body when launching a punch. Et Cetera.

we train in a more kick boxing style stance

Yeah, most people at my school adhere to tradition and have a long, distinctly Jet Li-esque stance, but I like to use a shorter, more contracted one with guard held higher.

[Stick]

I agree, with you on that Rob, very rarely do Shotokan students actually apply Shotokan kihon to their kumite. Which leads to the question, why do they train what they do in their kihon? If it's not being applied then what's the point training it?

I'm not taking shots at the style now, I'm genuinely curious and willing to learn if anyone can give me a decent answer...


The kihon in shotokan are to teach proper rotation of hip, the low stance is to make the hip rotation difficult to perform and build the muscles in the lower body, thus, the Japanese declare it a do...you against the stance. I'm sure we could find other ways to do this, but it's part of tradition. It's been my experiance that both traditional kihon (up and down the floor), coupled with modern kyokushin/kickboxing style kihon makes for a better, more well rounded shotokan karateka.

[Flying Shadow]

As far as I understand it the Kihon like Scaramouch said are designed to alter your muscle memory so when you go to fight instinctively you automatically find yourself in the right position, instead of a crappy version of the right position.

I tend to think that the Kihon are exaggerated in form when you train on them, so when your technique naturally degrades when fighting instinctively (cause your not going to worry about the technical aspects of your forward stance whilst someone is trying to kill you) because you've done the basic long ridgid forward stance several billion times you'll naturally drop into a echo or faded image of that stance which will be in the ideal position.

Just my thoughts anyway, as I've found myself dropping into ideal forward and backstances in fights automatically without thinking "better shorten and relax my stance, so I'm not a crazed lunatic japanese anime shotokan robot"

Also all the basic kihon blocks all have grappeling and striking applications aswell as deflecting.

[b19vny]

The problem with traditional shotokan is that kihon rarely changes from white belt to senior Dan grades - we just get faster and stronger at doing the same basic moves.

Once you get to a certain level you have all the "karate muscles and muscle memory" you need and so the kihon should become more practical - no need for front / back stance, no need to use hikite (hand on hips), no need to start pre-arranged kumite from a yoi position, no need to make a big preparation for uke / uchi waza.

This evolution is often overlooked so we have 5th Dans doing (and teaching) 1st Dan karate.

[Flying Shadow]

Actually I've been taught that hikite is the pushing and and pulling harmony action with the twisting of the hips to create maximum power since almost every block strike etc... is done with both arms and the hips.

But yes I agree hand on hips is impractical but punching from there to begin with in training helps you
1. understand the form and technique
2. develop more power

We've actually got a drill where we start off doing the full technique of punching from the hip and then progressively shortening the punch and pushing hard and harder just to see how much power we can create over a shorter and shorter distance. But if we started to try and create power over a short distance I don't think it would have been as easy as if we started with the full "traditional" technique

Other than that changing the kihon as you go up in rank, yeah that sort of happens in my dojo aswell but we go back to practicing the basic, traditional kihon so that we can remember it and teach it to others. Also the traditional kihon have so interesting grappeling insights.

Cheers.