Fate

[mani]

Do you beleive in fate? And think that your life is pre-determined

or,

Do you like to think that your actions will decide your fate?

[waya]

Some possibly pre-dertimined. But our actions can alter even those.

[Adam]

MY life is in part controlled by some predestined purpose is all I can say. I cannot say if what that purpose is or if it also applies to other people, but I believe that everything happens for a reason, if only as a test to your resolve and faith.

[pgm316]

I voted no.

Although our lives are much more predetermined than we realise, but no fate is set.

[darlph]

Fate. Every choice you make can change your fate. Theres a reason for everything, even if we don't realize it at the time. But fate...........I believe in choice.

[Cain]

Nah! I don't believe in that stuff, you are responsible for your own actions don't blame fate for YOUR mistakes :D

|Cain|

[pgm316]

Originally posted by Cain
Nah! I don't believe in that stuff, you are responsible for your own actions don't blame fate for YOUR mistakes :D

|Cain|

Its not my fault I slept through training, it was fate! :p

[Grifter]

Nope we determine our own Fate.
But whats that called when like you do something bad and something bad happens to you or vica-versa. Think its called karma. That I believe in.

[Andrew Green]

I don't know.

I would say that there is a very strong case for determinism, there is a case for quantum indeterminism, but I can't see how the two can get mashed together to give me choice in any "real" sense.

I'd obviously like to believe I have choice, just not sure there is any evidence to support that belief and lots of evidence telling me I don't.

I would say that we have the illusion of choice, even if we don't actually have it. But who knows?

Look at a computer, it makes all kinds of choices all the time. But given the circumstances, its programming, and everything else there was really only one choice.

Granted we are a little more complicated and a little squishier, but perhaps we are the same. It might appear we are making a choice, but really there was no choice to be made given our programming and data that we had.

[Greg-VT]

Fate? Yeah, I guess I do.

I don't believe that our lives are already laid before us.

But I do believe that major opportunities and decisions are there for us to reach. Waiting for us. Then we still have to decide on which way to go.

[Knight_Errant]

fate- isn't that that stuff we make up as we go along? :)

[TheBorderer]

Originally posted by waya
Some possibly pre-dertimined. But our actions can alter even those.

I have a similar line of thought to waya, in which it would've been nice for this poll to have had a "maybe or something like that(but then I can be quite awkward like that at times I know! :) ) as I can't feel I can categorically say "yes" or "no" (so sorry mani I didn't vote, hope that's ok :))

Yeah I think that there is fate in some part of our lives that we cann't change, but I think we can shape our own destiny's.

So if you beleive in fate you must then (by supposition) acept it? I don't know if I could, I mean what if someone was able to tell you exactly what was going to happen for the rest of your life and that you could not change it in any way? Wouldn't that not make life pointless? :confused: I agree with AG as well, because I think that we'd like to hope we have a choice and can effect our own destiny, but can't be sure if we can. I think (like waya) that we can and that fate does have a part to play, but not such that we can't change things if we put our mind to doing so.

Interesting topic mani. :)

[cal_JJJ]

I firmly beleave that our lives are the sum total of the choices that make along the way. Where it gets sticky for me is if I am always in complete control of the choices that I have to make.:D

[Knight_Errant]

yes, but was it in your fate that you were going to make those choices? :D

[johndoch]

or was was it your fate to have these choices available to you!

[cal_JJJ]

I know, you could attribute every twist and turn in life to fate.

Where I am coming from though, and I'm not sure how to word this though, but; 90% of all the people that I have met who have made a mess of their lives due to poor or self-indulgent choices beleave in fate. And 90% of all the people that I have met who set goals and put those goals at the top of their priority list don't beleave in fate. Why is that?

[Andrew Green]

Cal, that is a irrelevant point ;)

No one will say that it doesn't appear that we have choice, and our choices effect our lifes.

The question is could we have choosen otherwise.

You would need to show a causal connection, which I don't think you can do. Simply appearing in the same place often is not a causal connection.

Perhaps people "fated" to believe in fate, are generally people "fated" to make poor decisions. But that doesn't mean they could have decided to make any of those choices differently.

If you know enough about a coin and its environment you can predict with 100% accuracy whether it will be heads or tails.

Perhaps if we knew enough about a person and their environment we could predict with 100% accuracy what they will choose in a given situation.

I do remember hearing of a study that was able to demonstrate this to some extent, it was done on people with some sort of dissorder that slowed their response speed, but that was a while back and I can't remember it fully.

But if I could measure the exact state of your brain, all its pathways, where all the bits are, everything. Does it not seem plausible that I could predict with 100% accuracy how it will react to certain input?

That your brain is wired in such a way that given the exact same starting state, and the exact same input it would react the exact same way?

[YODA]

Life would be pretty boring if everything was pre-ordained. What would be the point of striving to acieve anything?

[Tireces]

No fate but what we make.

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by YODA
Life would be pretty boring if everything was pre-ordained. What would be the point of striving to acieve anything?

Wouldn't no it if it was ;)

The point of striving to achieve things?

Thats the way your built :D You couldn't have NOT strived to achieve them.

[YODA]

Oh I dunno Andrew - I achieved some surprising things by just "letting go" and letting things happen. That's the paradox! But then again - maybe I chose to "let go" :p

[Knight_Errant]

if even your own choices were preordained, you wouldn't know the difference from if they weren't. Maybe for general things you have to let go but for specific actions you have to have a clear idea of what you are doing or you won't move your muscles in the right way. That way, I suppose you are adapting your way of life to the way you have/wish to live it.

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by YODA
Oh I dunno Andrew - I achieved some surprising things by just "letting go" and letting things happen. That's the paradox! But then again - maybe I chose to "let go" :p

No paradox.

Given the nature and state of yourself and the universe you could not possibly have NOT let go :D

No one can deny that we have the ability to make choices. But the question is could we have made a different choice in the exact same situation.

I'd say we at least have the illusion that we can, but that means nothing as to what really is going on.

[cal_JJJ]

MR. GREEN!! IRRELEVANT!!!! :D

I told you I wasn't sure how to present this, but if you can't know if any twist or turn in life is fated or not. Then I think your better off not beleaving in fate as a lot of people already make to many excuses for poor decisions as it is.

[KenpoDavid]

I think:
The question itself is meaningless. The idea of "fate" is an illusion brought about by our limitation of exepriencing linearly from one moment to the next. Time is an artifact of a physical body existence, which is only one component of ourselves.

So yes existing physically in time I believe we have free will to do whatver we imagine bound only by physical laws and our own thoughts. However the outcome of our lives is known to God ahead of time. Does this mean it is forced to happen that way? Does God's pre-knowledge of something make it so, or does he know about it becasue it will be so? I submit that there is no difference.

Also, "fate" assumes an arbitrator, who can say "this is what should have happened, this is not." And who can judge that? Only some intelligence outside of our linear time perception...

I think people may find themselves at a certain situation, and upon reflection realize "no matter what choices I made at point A and point B, I would still be where I am now" - and they call that fate. When in fact they are missing some other more consequential points from their analysis that really led them to where they are and the points they are looking back at were already constrained by those other choices.

So I distill all that down to this - know what's right and wrong, do what's right. Know your responsibilities, take care of them all first. If those things lead me to trouble, then so be it, I will prevail.

Man, I hope that made sense... becasue I'm not going back to edit it!

[inacan]

While at one point I think it's a contrived notion created by people, I have these feelings in the back of my brain (that usually come true), I wonder if possibly it does exist. I guess the whole idea is that as human beings, we will never be able to know nor understand the concept behind it.

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by KenpoDavid
However the outcome of our lives is known to God ahead of time. Does this mean it is forced to happen that way? Does God's pre-knowledge of something make it so, or does he know about it becasue it will be so? I submit that there is no difference.


Bringing God into this can only mess things up.

First not everyone believes in God, and of those that do not all believe God can know the future with 100% accuracy.

But lets take that, don't most religions also support the idea of Free Will?

Things just get really messy after that ;)

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by cal_JJJ
MR. GREEN!! IRRELEVANT!!!! :D

I told you I wasn't sure how to present this, but if you can't know if any twist or turn in life is fated or not. Then I think your better off not beleaving in fate as a lot of people already make to many excuses for poor decisions as it is.

But if determinism holds, it doesn't matter what you're better off believing, cause there is no possible way you could have believed otherwise ;)

The question is "does determinism hold?" not "Are we better off believing it holds or not?"

If it does hold, your question is meaningless as nothing can be done about it.

If it doesn't hold then your right.

So lets assume that in a sense you are right, either way the best choice is to believe it doesn't hold.

If it does hold it is irrelevant to consider, although you could not have possibly not considered it....

If it doesn't hold your right.

But that is just sticking irrelevant things in the middle. The question is not should we believe it holds, the question is does it hold.

Look at this:

In 6 months I am going to die.

That is either true or false.

Not, you'd be better off believing you won't.

While that may be true, it does not answer the question about whether or not I while die in 6 months and is irrelevant

[cal_JJJ]

Andrew San;

You are obviously the better philosopher.
This all reminds me of a middle school teacher that I had who asked me if I believed in the creation theory or the evolution theory. Which I responded w/ "I think the basic seeds for life that we evolved from were created." While it was an answer, I was told that I couldn't " sit on the fence" in his class.

So how about some fence sitting?
Could we have individual free will, but as a species our fate is sealed?

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by cal_JJJ

Could we have individual free will, but as a species our fate is sealed?

I don't know how you'd argue for it.

But you might start with basic quantum theory.

A single particle's actions can't be predicted, but as a group they can.

So you might be able to predict 30% do this and 70% do that but which do what would be impossible...

But like I said, I got no idea how you would argue for that, but it would be a interesting thing to try and work out ;)

[oneil357]

i would have to say no, i believe in the concept of free will and fate would interfere with this.

[Andrew Green]

are you sure? ;)

All depends on how you define free will :D

[Velid]

I look at fate a many possiblities, I see it a fate bringing me to a circumstabce then how I deal with it will determine my next, and my next. Like a branching effect, depending on my choices my fate will change. Some may see this a free will, I see it as cause and effect.

And i know that my descisions that i make could very well be fate. This is just how I look at the subject. (I like to think I have some control)

Dave

[Knight_Errant]

Nobody can deny that we find ourselves making choices. If fate exists in all things, which to exist it would have to, then these choices themselves are preordained. This means that the choice to believe in faith is

[Knight_Errant]

Nobody can deny that we find ourselves making choices. If fate exists in all things, which to exist it would have to, then these choices themselves are preordained. This means that fate itself can neither be disproved or proved empirically. The choice to believe in fate depends upon blind faith. Therefore, fate does not exist in the way we might think of, say, a brick, as existing. But, for things to happen, then a certain kind of fate must exist, or actions would not have consequences. Maybe? :)

Or maybe I'm just thick as a neutron star...

[TheBorderer]

Intersting post KE, while some may say (if only just to be 'arguementative') that how can we know that it is us ourselves which make our own choices? I think that we do make our own choices, granted 'outside effects' from the environment and other people's choices affect this and so on. But hmm yes, I think your right that there is now real way to tell if fate exists or not, or indeed if you could 'measure' such thing But you could argue that because people think it does exist... therefore it exists... along the lines of Rene Decartes (I know if I'm wrong someone will correct me! :)) often quoted line "I think therefore I am" .

Fate as many possibillites? Fair assumption to assume, the concepts that make me think (granted I'm going maybe slightly off topic from watching too much Star Trek and other Sci-Fi stuff on TV and in movies! :D), are all the theories on things to do with timelines (where say someone goes back in time, and hence by doing so creates an all new time line! etc) and the like. The "multiple posibillites" theory I think is called quantum thereoy (or quantum realities (sp?) )by phsyiscits, whereby, becuase your actions all have differnt consequences and I guess where "causality" effects come into play also, that result in many 'instances' of similar yet different 'presents' (hmm... the basis of "Quantum Leap" methinks! :D) ,excpet we can only exist in one of them, granted some would definately say "one existance" is enough to cope with already! :)

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by TheBorderer
But you could argue that because people think it does exist... therefore it exists... along the lines of Rene Decartes (I know if I'm wrong someone will correct me! :)) often quoted line "I think therefore I am" .


Not really, not at all what Descartes said.

Well later maybe when he brought God into it.... but that didn't have anything at all to do with that quote.

It is a proof of existence.

I think.

Therefore there must be some entity that is doing that thinking.

Whatever that entity is, that is me.

Therefore I exist.

Which is completely compatable with determinism, and a lot of other things many of which Descartes pointed out. (evil genious) Only through the use of God could he solve any of them.

[Knight_Errant]

granted some would definately say "one existance" is enough to cope with already!
Yes, quite enough thank 'ee! I could never keep track of threads on forums in more than one reality!

[David]

To me, fate is what happened or what is clearly going to happen because of the known factors. I believe you are free to act in any way but ppl tend to go with what they think they're going to go with.

Rgds,
David

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by David
To me, fate is what happened or what is clearly going to happen because of the known factors.

How about all the factors which could possibly be known?

If you know enough about a coin and its environment you can predict with 100% accuracy whether it will be heads or tails.

If you know enough about a human and its environment why should it be any different?

[TheBorderer]

You make a good point there AG... and I agree with you, in the end it would have to be possibile to do so... though of course the problem is, would you be able yo do so? Ok it's far easier to predict coins due to their relatively less complex system. But I guess if you forget the fact of 'complexity' the idea would hold I gues... though I would imagine it would take you more than a human lifetime to even try to do such a thing and even then you might not be able to be as good as prediction in that case than with coins with "heads" and "tails"! :)

[Humblebee]

I dont believe in fate at all, isn't fate something that's fixed,something thats already planned out for you,who plans this stuff.Destiny fits better with me something that we create and control something thats not fixed something that moves when we move.If any thing is pre planed for us we planned it with our thoughts words and actions.Cause and effect shapes our future and we control cause and effect,so we're in the driving seat at all times,so fasten your seat belts guys.
Nam myoho renge kyo

[RichieRich]

Those of you who believe in fate presumably don't run when seeing an out of control bus baring down on you.... que serra, serra... :D

[Judderman]

Personally I can except fate and destiny. I look at them this way. Destiny is where you become the real you, its not necassarily a location, it may even be an action. Point is I don't think that its a final point. Bit of a bummer if you had the insight, realised your destiny then promptly died. I guess its finding out what you are supposed to do in this life, where you fit in to it all.

Fate is different. Fate is the journey. Say your destiny was to live in London, now there are millions of routes to London, some direct, some damn obscure. This is fate.

Free will still comes into this. You can realise your destiny and still turn away from it. The choices we make are sometimes good, sometimes bad, this is fate. Point is we still get to choose.

Point is can you realise your destiny or do you just end up doing it and not realise its right until someone points it out?

[Poop-Loops]

A mix for me. Mostly, though, I believe we are responisble for ourselves. But then you have people who were late for work when 9/11 happened, because they overslept, or they forgot to set their alarm.

PL

[animefreak88]

i think of fate as a web. each piece of the web is made up of someone's choices. when one part of the web changes, it has effects on other parts of the web aswell. in the same sense, the choice of another person can and often does affect you. fate exists as a power over us in the sense that we are only one part of this web, and we cannot control the entire web. so when our part of the web changes, that change dictates what we can and cannot do. translation, you have free will, you have more than one option in most every situation, but the choices of others involved in a situation narrows down what your options are.

[#1 Stutta]

I believe in fate. I think that no matter what choices we make, those are the choices we were supposed to make. I'm not too good with words, so I'm going to agree with someone here. I was waiting for someone to post what I thought, and then I would agree. I agree with KE. He posted exactly how I felt about this. I don't think you can change your fate. Your life is predetermined.

[Kanku]

I think that the only thing that is predetermined is your genes blueprint, everything else is dependent on circumstances and situations. Even personality develops as a result of our experiences.

If fate does in fact exist, that would mean that there is nothing that we can do to change the inevitable. We are simply puppets going along with what fate has decided. I would rather take the view that my mind is my own and I must take responsibility for my actions and control of my life rather than leave them to chance.